And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d bear the pain of cystolithiasis if you calculated to miss this week’s show, our associate producer, Kate has returned for your listening variety. Hey, Tony, we have exploit conflict and intuition to make better programs and products. Our panel from the 2024 nonprofit technology conference is Drew Nelson Cassie Johnson and Eve Lata. They explain how to add conflict resolution and intuition driven strategies into your program and product development. Drew is with the city of Saint Paul. Minnesota. Cassie is at Software for Good and Eve is from EDU. This closes out our 24 NTC coverage on Tony’s take. Two old friends were sponsored by virtuous, virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org here is exploit conflict and intuition to make better programs and products. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference we’re hosted here by N 10. We’re all convened in Portland Oregon. Nonprofit radio coverage of 24 NTC is sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. With me for this conversation are Drew Nelson Cassie Johnson and Eve. La Vida. Drew is deputy director at the city of Saint Paul. Minnesota. Cassie Johnson is Vice president for product strategy at Software for Good. And she was Drew’s immediate predecessor in the job of directed deputy director of the city of Saint Paul and Eve, La Savita. We’ll see if she has a connection to the Saint Paul uh government administration. Uh Eve La Savita is, is managing director of product and innovation at Ed Fuel Drew Cassie Eve. Welcome. It’s great to have you all. So Eve, the burning question, are you, are you at all affiliated with the government of Saint Paul Minnesota? Were you in the past? Maybe in the future? Maybe you could be, you never know. I hear it’s a trend. You could be deputy director of the city of Saint Paul. You could be Cassie’s not the Cassie’s on her way out. But if she departs, if she should choose to depart, uh you might be her successor, I can take this one though, to explain the connection here if you’d like. So I work for an agency headquartered in Minneapolis, ST Paul and both of my esteemed colleagues here are clients of software for good. So we have a current work with the Office of Technology and Communications for the city of ST Paul where Drew is Deputy director. And we have a very cool project also with Ed Fuel and Eve is our client. And so that’s the connection between us. But, but you and Jonathan, you and Drew had the same job. I mean, you have, he has the job that you had. Yes, I hired him and then promoted him and then promoted him again. Ok. And he’s forever great. Absolutely grateful. Alright. And you left, you left the office in good order for Drew. You believe that? Alright. Well, I’m not gonna ask Drew whether that’s the case or not, we’ll leave it as uh we’ll leave it as with uh with your belief. Alright. Alright. Thank you. Thank you for explaining Cassie. So uh your uh session, have you done your session? You had your session, your session is harnessing conflict and intuition in product strategy and development. Uh Drew, let’s start with you. Seated closest to me, what’s uh what’s the need for this session? Um Really con conflict is an incredibly important part of effective product development and it helps really ensure that when you actually create something, it’s gonna solve the problem that you’re setting out to create and you’re encompassing the views of the folks that are um stakeholders um supporters or the users of that product and without actually leaning into the conflict, working through it and addressing the issues that are coming up in our uh through that you’re gonna just enable the dominant viewpoint, the loudest talker in the room, whatever you may be to uh pretty much steamroll through and create an app that might not actually serve the, the, the user base that it actually needs to serve or connect with the folks that it’s trying to connect with. And we’re talking about a product, uh a product strategy and development. So as deputy director of a, of a major city, what, what kind of products are we talking about? Well, product is a pretty nebulous term. I know, I mean, does that mean like a pothole, uh a pothole toll free uh collection line or it doesn’t have to be a technology product? And oftentimes we think about this in ways that aren’t that technology is just the support to this at the end. However, eve I think is an amazing person. If you don’t mind me kicking it over to her to talk a little bit about the product side. Let me pass over Cassie. That’s alright. Cassie. Seated in between Eve uh between Eve and Drew, we’ll come back to Cassie. I’ll make sure everybody gets a voice on nonprofit radios. Very equitable show. Great. Yeah, I’d be happy to talk about that. Um I think it’s so I’ve been in product for a long time. Um And actually came up through the, what I call the traditional tech space before moving into nonprofit. Um And one of the things that I’ve learned is that product is a very ambiguous term in this space. And so I think it is worth taking a minute or two to define what we mean when we talk about products, I’m glad I hit on something that you believe is valuable. It rarely happens. It’s dealing generally with a lackluster host. Well, it’s actually a little bit of for sure. It’s actually become a little bit of a thing thing for me since I first really entered the space fully and discovered that I was talking in language that nobody knew. Um And, you know, trying to figure out, oh, wait, I need to, I need to, you know, get clear about what I’m talking about in order for people to actually have a clue what I’m what I’m saying. Um So when, when we’re talking about product, it is a term that covers a lot of territory we’re talking primarily in terms of digital product. Um and that field. So the the practice of developing a bundle of functionality if you will, that you can name and put out in the world and it actually helps people get a job done. So in um in kind of the traditional tech space, like it can be something as broad as, you know, Facebook is a product, it can be something as small as, um, you know, the, the Buy now button in Amazon is its own product. Um, and the point being that, you know, you’re building something you’re designing something, um, that you can give to a human being and they can use it to actually do something that they wanna do. Um, in the nonprofit sense, you know, this could include things like, um, the, the Trevor project has a chatbot uh that helps train its responders um in crisis. Um And that is, that is a product. Um, a fundraising CRM could be a product. So that just kind of gives a sense of what we’re talking about when we talk about product. And I think the important thing for the conflict and intuition part is developing product is essentially a design and decision making process. And so inevitably conflict is going to arise during that because there’s never one right answer to how you’re going to do this and what you’re going to actually build. And I just want listeners to know that the, the arcade, which is the exhibit hall floor, but here at NTC, it’s called the arcade is coming down around us. So you may hear pipes, uh pipes, uh hitting the concrete floor and there’s gonna be crates moving probably very soon. It might be a little banging. There’s some banging for us. Not right on cue. It’s perfect. So, but nonprofit radio perseveres. So we are here, we’ve got another couple of interviews beyond this one. Even though the booths may be coming down around us, we continue so not to worry, it’s time for a break. Virtuous is a software company committed to helping nonprofits grow generosity. Virtuous believes that generosity has the power to create profound change in the world and in the heart of the giver, it’s their mission to move the needle on global generosity by helping nonprofits better connect with and inspire their givers. Responsive fundraising puts the donor at the center of fundraising and grows giving through personalized donor journeys that respond to the needs of each individual. Virtuous is the only responsive nonprofit CRM designed to help you build deeper relationships with every donor at scale. Virtuous gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising, volunteer marketing and automation tools. You need to create responsive experiences that build trust and grow, impact virtuous.org now back to exploit conflict and intuition to make better programs and products. Cassie, let’s talk about the intuition part of this. We talked about conflict. What an intuition honestly is the uh the key word in your session topic that caught my attention. What’s the intuition? What’s the role of intuition here? So, yeah, this was something that I wanted to lean into because it’s not something that is comfortable for me. And I think when we talked about it in our session, um the intuition came in when we get that, that sense that something is off. Um And that we need to pause and lean in and ask ourselves, where is the misalignment? Where is the lack of shared understanding about purpose or understanding of a concept or where we’re not tracking towards the outcomes that we set out to achieve together? And how do we slow down to explore that together and ensure that we’re still on track? And I think a lot of work and, um you know, thought and framework and practice in the product space is about, you know, replicable and speed and staying on track and checklists. And we don’t talk as much about, well, what happens when we get that sense that maybe when we are talking about um users and we’re using a word about our users are people who are radio listeners, are we really exploring? But which segment and do we have a shared understanding of even what listener means or um families, you know, did we explore or interrogate what family means or that’s an even better example than radio listeners. Exactly. The definition of family has changed so much in the past seven years, 78 years. And, you know, when we are in a room and we start to sense that people are nodding their heads, but probably not actually in agreement. And we don’t take the time to say CS, I think there’s something maybe where we’re not on the same page here. And yet we know time in the meeting is running out and there’s a deadline and it’s uncomfortable and it might even, um you know, trigger kind of issues in the room around positional privilege or identity privilege or difference. Um It can be challenging to step in and take that risk and it can mean that we get three months down the road and we’ve not built the right product. We’ve not built a product at all. We’ve not delivered for end users. We have wasted money, we’ve wasted time, we’ve wasted effort. And so I think a lot of what we talked about in our session are ways to set up projects to ensure that we have ways to kind of conflict proof or address and get shared understanding on the front end so that we are mitigating against conflict tools to address conflict when it does arise. But I think that intuition comes in of just being kind of in our bodies sensing feeling where there’s that just something that comes up where you’re like, it’s not right and, and talk about honoring the intuition of others. So you set up a great, you set up a great hypothetical. We’re in a meeting, the time is running out and someone will leave out whether that person has power and privilege in the meeting or not. Just someone I know that I know that could be important, but someone in the meeting has a, has a stomach, a jumpy stomach about whatever, whatever we’re talking about, talk about the role of honoring the responsibility of honoring that person’s tuition, intuition, paying their tuition. No, honoring their intuition in the moment. Yeah. I think that’s a really great question. It’s something that I really, really value in my leader. I see her now when she sees it in the room and now I know what’s happening. We’ve worked together for quite some time and so I can see that she’s sensing it in others and either we’ll make a decision to name it to ask questions or we’ll follow up after the meeting, if she’s aware that it might not be the time and the space in the meeting. Um And so I think learning from her to start to recognize in others to create space, if it’s the right time and the right space, and it’s going to be productive to name it, to make sure that we’re not kind of just bulldozing through um when it comes up for others that were curious and open. And also, you know, if we explore and we’re curious and it doesn’t turn out, you know, we give it space but also not kind of giving in to analysis paralysis and following every lead to its conclusion to where we don’t make progress. And so I think it’s a delicate balance. Um But I think just understanding that there are many different ways of knowing and we lose the human part of the work that we do. You know, if we just wanted to automate everything with like we could have, you know, a I do product process if we wanted to give up the human elements around intuition and knowing and kind of being in that space together. Um And we wouldn’t, we wouldn’t get good human centered tools and solutions and products. One of the things that makes us uniquely human is intuition and conflict. I don’t know if, I don’t know if chat bots can argue with each other. I mean, I know they can argue with users as you’re prompting it. But uh I don’t know if they argue with each other, but too esoteric to deal with uh maybe next year, maybe next year’s artificial intelligence uh session topic. Um Alright. So what else? Uh What else have the three, the three of you talk about in uh in the session drew that we haven’t, we haven’t covered yet. I mean, I’m, I’m looking at your, your session description and we’ve kind of touched on everything like describe the roles of conflict and intuition and apply a framework plan to add conflict resolution and intuition driven strategies into your product development cycle. We’ve kind of touched on all three of these, but let’s go into a little more detail on that. Uh So we’re not holding off, holding back on nonprofit radio listeners. We don’t want that. We don’t, we don’t give them short shrift. Well, one of the other things that we spent a lot of time kind of trying to unpack was the identity, power and privilege that comes into the product development process as well as the conflict, especially that arises from it. And um really taking like thinking about it in three levels, from working through this as an individual, working through it with your team and then working through it with your organization, kind of understanding what is going to be achievable to drive change in that space and really getting a sense of what your privilege is bringing into that space. So the example here I’ll use is that, you know, as we mentioned, Cassie and I had the same, had the same role. I succeeded. Her, Cassie has more experience. Cassie has more education than me. And she hired you and hired me and promoted me twice and I stepped into the role and I made more money than she ever did in the role immediately. Um So that, that’s just a strong example of the, of the base level of privilege that I bring into that conversation because as while your readers don’t know this, I’m far more dressed down than Cassie is in this, in this engagement right now. Um And I, I got a leather jacket on and Drew’s wearing a pullo fleece. Um But that when it comes into a, when it comes into conflict cycles, if you don’t actually take a step back and recognize a, whether you’re inferred or conferred power, whether it comes from you or comes from your organization, how that presents in that uh that space and how that creates an opportunity or more often than not dis inhibits the opportunity for co for conflicting views to come up. You’re just gonna design what you’ve already designed before. Um And a really great way to look at that is your smartphone. Um the camera on your smartphone right now, there is a huge press to talk about how amazing these uh cameras are are actually avail coming up to the level where they can get facial features of black and brown people, people who have darker skin tones. Um and iphone 15 is really plugging this right now. Well, there were 14 other versions of iphone and my facial features showed up pretty well on all of them up and now they still do. However, a lot of folks did not have that same experience and there was nothing in that space that was different other than the fact of who was in the, who was in the room to help design some of those features and who was the believed user base of that because without leaning into that conflict and without stepping back, especially in a space of technology which is white is male. Technology. Leadership is even more white, even more male. Um You’re just, you’re gonna build to the room that you see or you’re gonna build to the the historic user base that you had and that leaves out huge swaths of the population and really inhibits the success of your application because it just drives around the people that have always been able to successfully work with technology in a session. Uh conversation last year, we were talking about equity in product design and development. And the my guest used the example of a uh an automatic water uh water faucet, you know, in an airport or in a public bathroom and how darker skin tones didn’t activate the water. They worked fine with paler skin tones. There are many, many examples just that one comes to mind and yours is yours is, you know, excellent as well. The, the all the models before the iphone 15, it’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors, a partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability, your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate. I’m making plans to see a bunch of old friends uh coming up and I just saw one last week, a friend from college and I’m encouraging you to do the same. Think about how you can get together with folks. Uh I’m going back to, uh, actually a friend from high school is visiting me in a couple of weeks. So I’m guess I’m going all the way back to high school. Uh, but I’m also gonna be traveling to New Hampshire. Uh, there’s a wedding there in September, but I’m gonna stay a couple of extra nights to visit a friend in from college who also lives in New Hampshire and in October, I’m going to uh Texas and then California to visit uh Air Force friends and maybe, maybe include Colorado in that, not sure about that part. Um But just, you know, the joy of actually seeing being with people. Uh it’s uh you know, I’ve, I’ve talked about how inadequate zoom is. I mean, it’s a necessary tool, of course, but it, it’s nowhere near comparison to uh being in a room with somebody face to face in person, IRL in the uh to use the parlance of our times, right? IRL. So if you can think about how you can think about how you can get together with dear old friends. And that is Tony’s take two Kate. I almost feel inspired to go like text an old friend from middle school. But at the same time, I think I’m just gonna, you know, like their posts on Facebook and Instagram for now. Why, why are you gonna stop short of, of texting them. I don’t know. I feel like I wouldn’t even know where to begin, you know, like, what have you been doing for the past like eight years since we’ve seen each other? You know, how would you, like, start that? Well, some of these fo, uh, let me see. Well, no, I guess the folks I’m seeing, I, I’m in, I’m in touch with but, ok, I’ll give you another example. Uh, somebody from, from my elementary school and then we went to high school together also. I have not been in touch with him since high school graduation, which would have been 19 80. That’s 44 years and somebody recently gave me his phone number. So I texted him and we’re gonna get together and chat. That’s 44 years worth 00, you know, you can do it. It just, you come on, it’s, you don’t say what have you been doing for the past 44 years? How, how are you, what do you do? Do you have a family? Where do you live? I mean, there’s plenty of stuff, you know, eight years is not really that much. It’s really not. I, I’m connecting with somebody. Look, I’m connecting with somebody 44 years. I haven’t talked to him. I’m literally not exaggerating high school graduation. Last time I saw the guy so you can come on, text your text, your text, your elementary school friend. Just say, how are you doing? Not catch me up each month. What have you done each month for the past eight years? What is that? Eight times, 1272 months? It would be too long. You can’t do it now. Obviously nobody’s got that kind of catalog. But what are you doing? What are you thinking about doing? Where do you live? You know, things like that? Do you have a car? You know? No, I, I’ll do it and then I’ll, I’ll keep you updated. Come on. Yes, you can reconnect with your, your friend of eight years past Absolutely. Well, you know what? Because another reason why if you don’t, because then another eight years will go by and then you’ll say, oh, now it’s 16 years now. It’s, now it’s, now it’s twice as difficult for me to reconnect than it was eight years ago. Text her, text her tomorrow. We’ve got just about a butt load. More time. Here’s the rest of exploit conflict and intuition to make better programs and products. How about you eve, what, what else, what else haven’t we talked about that? You’d like to share with listeners. Yeah. So, um one of the things that I like to talk about and, you know, help, help organizations with is, you know, how do we actually set really strong foundations in the first place? Um For first of all, avoiding certain types of conflict that really shouldn’t arise if you’ve got the right foundations laid. Um And secondly, help you resolve conflict when it does eventually arise because again, you’re gonna get conflict because it, there’s no, there’s no clear answer. There’s no one right way. Um And so one of the, one of the things that um I’d like to share is just some of those foundational approaches that folks can use. Um And a lot of this comes down to um when there’s good conflict that can happen in the course of developing product. Um But there’s um also some types of conflict that um are just super foundational and you wanna get it, you wanna address right away. And um a lot of the conflict will arise when you get to the point of like, well, we should build X, you know, we should build Y and all of a sudden you’re just, you know, arguing passion around, you know, one person loves this idea and the other person loves this idea. And there’s no, it’s just the loudest voice in the room. When this conversation is universal, it transcends product development. Um The product strategy and development, it really does. I mean, we could be arguing, there could be conflict about, we should do this program or not this program or we should expand this one and cut this one. And so I’m, I’m not trying to usurp your topic, but I just want to make it explicit for listeners that to me, this transcends product development strategy 100% does. And I really appreciate you saying that because I think a lot of this stuff does scale and transcend for sure. So a lot of times when those, when those arguments arise, they are due to lack of alignment in three particular areas. Um You’ve got lack of alignment around why you’re even building this thing in the first place. You’ve got lack of alignment around what, what success looks like, what the, what the outcomes are that you’re trying to drive or, and, or you’ve got lack of alignment around the norms of how you’re actually gonna make decisions along the way. And so spending time upfront, investing time upfront in actually establishing um what those things are, is really essential to the success of any, any product. Or as you know, as you pointed out any, any project, any process, any program um that that investment will significantly pay down, pay off down the road. So, for example, you know, when it comes to like, why are we here in the first place? Well, the two most important things that you can be talking about is, well, who’s, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve in the first place? And who are we trying to solve it for? So Drew’s mentioned a number of times and Cassie mentioned a number of times users and when we say users, it’s kind of a jargony term. What we’re talking about is the people who are ultimately going to be the beneficiaries of the thing that you’re trying to build and that’s what matters most more than anything else. And it’s, it sounds obvious but it’s amazing how often there’s lack of alignment around that usually because it just hasn’t been discussed. Um, it’s not a question of, you know, um, it, it, it’s just a question of not having surfaced those assumptions in the first place and explicitly had, having those conversations around, you know, we serve a population that looks like this. But right now, what we’re trying to do is solve a problem that addresses these particular people. Um And what is that problem that we’re trying to solve? Um Again, a lot of conflict typically arises when we get laser focused on what is the solution? And we lose sight of what is the problem we’re trying to build for people fall in love with solutions. And um I am a huge advocate of falling in love with the problem, not the solution. The solution is disposable. The solution’s a hypothesis. What really matters is, is it solving the problem? And to actually answer that question, you need to be really clear about what the problem is in the first place and actually write it down and spend time discussing it and get super nitty gritty about like, do we actually have a shared understanding about what the problem is? And do we, you know why do we think this is a problem? Where is that coming from? You know, is this something that we are speculating about or do we actually have really strong reason to believe that this problem exists? Um You know, it’s, it’s amazing how many solutions are designed for problems that don’t exist or we’re profoundly misunderstood um hand in hand with that is, you know, what does success look like for this? And this is not um what is our list of requirements for this, which is where a lot of people start. Like, you know, I’m sure Cassie gets this all the time. Hey, we’re gonna hand you a list of requirements, you’re gonna build this for us. And um that is, that is a recipe for disaster because again, you’re gonna lose sight of those, th those, those that list of things may or may not solve the problem that you’re solving for and it, it uh takes away the, the creativity um and the iter of nature of figuring out like what are the right solutions bucket of solutions that could potentially solve for this problem. Um And so, you know, to, to really, but at the same time, you need a North Star to work towards and that North Star really needs to be aligned around what are the outcomes you’re trying to drive for this. So instead of, you know, success looking like here’s the description of the thing that we’re trying to build. It’s more like here’s the change we want to see as a result of building this thing. Um And the, and, and stating that particularly from the point of view of the person who’s experiencing it, you know, it’s fine to have a success metric that looks like, you know, we’re gonna serve X number more people. Like that’s not a bad metric, but it’s not gonna help you determine whether or not you’ve solved that problem, you know, that, that articulation of that end state is going to look more like, you know, as a, you know, in the, in, in the case of my organization, um it’s going to be as an, as a, as a talent lead in an educational organization, I can do XY and Z better or I have this much more confidence or I am experiencing this thing and that I and this is not me, the individual, it’s not, it’s not eve it’s the person that I’m who, whose change I’m trying to, to drive. Um And so having that, that alignment, there is fundamental to any, any product, any project, any program. Um and you wanna be building towards that, that shared understanding of what success looks like for your organization. But mo most of all for the user that you’re trying to, that you’re trying to serve. Um Yeah, I was gonna move to Cassie. So the only other thing I wanted to add is that, you know, the third piece is the norms and we could, we could spend a lot of time on what, you know, those norms, like, you know, who’s got the decision making power and you know, who’s playing what role in this. But I think the most important one to call out is making sure that you’ve got a norm around. We involve community and users in the development process. And ultimately our decisions are being made off of, you know, we have actually tried to figure out if this works for people before putting it into implementation and heavily engage them in the process. Cassie, what would you like to add that we haven’t talked about? You want to share with listeners, something that you brought up and something that came up in our session yesterday. And I think this is probably really clear based on what you’ve just described. And I’ve been a nonprofit executive director, I’ve been a nonprofit development director. I don’t have a highly technical background and now I build apps, I design apps, I don’t code, but I work with developers and with our clients and what I have learned the secret that I’ll let you all in on and your listeners is that, um you know, technology is way more complicated than what I think probably we want to let on. And the complexity is not at all technical. It’s all the things that nonprofit leaders deal with every day around people and process and community um and values and strategy and many of the practices that I used as a nonprofit leader are the same things I do every day with our clients. And then the technical piece comes in maybe at like 5%. Um And we have really smart people who work with us and I don’t want to undermine the value of the code and the work that our developers do. But in terms of product design, um most of the work that we do is very similar to what I did as a nonprofit leader. And I think sometimes people who do the work that I do are invested in making it feel way more technical and kind of building a gatekeeping, gatekeeping around what it means to build technological solutions. Yeah, they have a language that’s arcane and jargony to, to outsiders. Uh they have degrees that, that certify that they have expertise or at least they certify that they have a degree expertise may vary. But I also think nonprofit leaders are very, very quick. I mean, I probably did was one of them to say, oh, technology, you know, as a nonprofit leader, I had a CFO, right? And I had an operations person who had hr background, but I felt responsible for understanding my financials. My board wouldn’t have let me not have financial understanding and an understanding of hr policy in my state. But no one was asking me about, you know, our it I was able to completely outsource all of that stuff. And so I also think that in this day and age. I’ve talked with nonprofit leaders who have a very sophisticated platform. They have a product, they have a technology product and feel very uncomfortable with that. They don’t embrace that they are a tech nonprofit. Um and aren’t able to kind of embody that part of their leadership in the way that they would finance our hr And so I think I would just kind of make a call to your listeners in the nonprofit space of just kind of embracing that part of their leadership. And also knowing that it’s really just more people in process stuff. It’s the other stuff that they do that’s important. Um And kind of owning that as a part of their leadership, I’d like to stop right there. I think that’s uh it’s kind of ideal. Thank you. That was Cassie Johnson, Vice President for product strategy at Software for good with her is Eve la Savita, managing director of product and Innovation at Ed Fuel and future Deputy Director of the City of Saint Saint Paul. Uh Cassie and I uh Eve and I will be following along. I’ll have to do you have to do, I have to live in Saint Paul to be the deputy director. OK. I’ll move. It’s a beautiful place and with them is uh Drew Nelson who is the current Deputy director of the city of Saint Paul. Thank you very much, Drew Cassie Eve. Thanks for sharing and thank you for being with Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Next week it’s the 7/100 show and 14th anniversary jubilee for nonprofit radio. Oh, we’ll have live music from Scott Stein co-host Claire Meyerhoff, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward. Our sponsors will check in and Tony and me. It’s fun and gratitude. Can’t wait to uh share the 700 show with you that it’s, it’s um great, great fun, great fun. Oh, and also uh Claire Claire has a quiz for uh for all of us, Claire’s quiz. Of course, it’s Claire’s quiz. What else would it be called? Great fun. Gotta be with us next week. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com and Kate. Welcome back. Uh It was a little exhausting last week, reading all these uh reading all these sponsored messages. It gets a little, a little tiring. Thank you for uh thank you for coming back. No more vacations for you. I was busy at the barbecue. We’re spons by virtuous, virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org. Love that alliteration. Our creative producer is Claire Meera. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our We guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation Scotty. Next week he’ll be live, be with us next week for nonprofit radio. The 7/100 show, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.