Emotional Intelligence For Leaders

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd be thrown into photokeratitis if you burned me with the idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer, Kate, with what's going on.

Kate Martignetti
Hey, Tony. This week it's emotional intelligence for leaders. Raised in Northern Ireland during years of deep division, Dr. Irvine Nugent brings EQ and conflict Conflict resolution skills for nonprofit leaders. He identifies the 4 skills leaders need, along with how to avoid escalation and maintain credibility. He shares the chilling story of his father's defiance and leadership after the family home and pub were bombed in 1974. He's the co-founder of Conflict EQ. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Tales from the Gym. Happy 91st birthday.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Emotional Intelligence for Leaders.

Tony Martignetti
It's a pleasure to welcome to Nonprofit Radio a person who helps leaders and mission-driven organizations lead well in moments of tension when conversations are hard, Emotions run high and avoidance is tempting. Dr. Irvine Nugent works at the intersection of emotional intelligence, conflict, and leadership under pressure. He's the co-founder of Conflict EQ. You'll find Irvine at irvenugent.com and on LinkedIn. Irvine Nugent, welcome to Nonprofit Radio.

Irvine Nugent
Hey, Tony, thank you so much. Delighted to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. I have been as well. This is something that if we've ever covered it, it's been a long time since we have. Emotional intelligence, conflict resolution. You know, I appreciate what you said in the bio that you sent me where avoidance is tempting. Yeah. Wouldn't we all just rather avoid moments of conflict than have difficult conversations? High-level view, we have an hour together. Why is it better to deal with conflict appropriately than to take the route of avoidance?

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, I think, wow, it's such a big question. But here's really what I'd love to come to is that conflict feels uncomfortable.

Tony Martignetti
Sure.

Irvine Nugent
And as human beings, we are designed to be more protective. And there's something about conflict that makes us vulnerable, that we fear losing control. And so, we feel that avoiding those conversations are safer. Problem is that the conversations never go away and the resentment builds. And because the issues are never dealt with, the impact grows and grows both personally and in an organization. And so, you know, I do a lot of coaching. And what I find is the core of many problems is the inability to have frank conversations and really get to clarity around issues because we're not willing to hash them out. We're fearful of where it might go.

Tony Martignetti
That's a beautiful introduction. There is a lot of fear. But we can end up in a more productive place, in a— I think in a more trusting place. And this is— we're talking about work. I mean, I imagine all or most of what we're going to say applies in your personal life as well, your relationships on the personal side. We're talking about the work environment. And so, yeah, I think you can just end in a more trusting, more stable, collegial workplace if you're willing to take on some difficult conversations and deal with things that Like everybody knows they need to be dealt with. They're right, the elephant in the room.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
But if we go for, I don't know, months, years even, without taking on these issues and having conversations like this, where— I mean, on the downside, what are we going to find if we're not having the hard conversations about the issues that we all know exist?

Irvine Nugent
Well, it's a great question. And well, first of all, the conversations are happening, but they're not happening where they need to happen, on the table. What they're happening is at the water cooler. They're happening in side conversations. And people are saying, did you hear what he just said? Or we didn't deal with that. Or how long? And so, this just creates a tension within the organization. And so, what happens is these parallel conversations. You have teams that are really not performing to their best of their abilities. Hmm. solutions, ideas, innovation is left because people aren't able to challenge the norm or challenge ideas. And I think part of that is, you know, I think what people— people fear conflict because I think what they fear is that there'll be a line that'll be crossed that'll become personal. And, and so everyone kind of gets, well, yeah, we should be debating the ideas, but what if it turns personal? And the problem is it will turn personal. There are times that people will take things personally. But if we don't learn how to have these deep conversations at the table, it's really going to impact performance. It's going to impact actually turnover at the end. That's how I learned about it, Tony. I was the CEO of a nonprofit. And I remember one day, one of our best performers came to me. And he said, I quit. And I said, I was shocked. This is like a star performer, the kind of person you build an organization around. I said, why are you quitting? And he said, because this organization won't have honest And that was an indictment of my own leadership. That's really what started me on this journey. But that's happening in organizations all around. Good people are stifled or leaving because we won't deal with the important conversations.

Tony Martignetti
So you're getting at the skill and maybe even the art of having these conversations, you know, what to do when it does turn personal. So let's turn to Amy Sample Ward. I'd like to start with some of the leadership skills that you feel leaders need. And the first one that you identify is self-awareness by the leader, by leadership, not just the leader, by leadership generally. I guess we mean anybody who's leading someone else, anybody who supervises someone else. Is that—

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, absolutely. I think anyone can benefit from that. And I think, okay, self-awareness. Yeah, I think I think we don't start there normally with leadership. But I have to say that I find the best leaders are the most self-aware leaders. And in the sense of conflict, yes, and conflict skills and conflict management, emotional intelligence, there are a set of skills. But the foundation is that ability to be self-aware. And what do I mean by that? That means to recognize what's going on inside of us, to be able to have clarity, To be able to name that because very often, especially in a conflict situation, we become reactive. Someone says something and just like that, we've done a response. Yeah. And the only way to stop that is to become more self-aware of what's happening off your triggers, off the emotions you're feeling so that you can insert a little bit of a pause that you have more choice in what's being said, or you have a quicker recovery when you realize, oof, that tone was a little harsh, or I shouldn't have said it that way. And you can kind of recover quicker and say, okay, okay, let me just rephrase that.

Tony Martignetti
Do we need a therapist to help us with self-awareness? I mean, how can we recognize these things in ourselves that you're describing?

Irvine Nugent
No, I don't think we need a therapist. I think we just need a little bit of patience with ourself And some, some work around it. Now, this is not an easy fix. This is not like 10 minutes and all of a sudden you're self-aware. But it is, you know, first of all, a willingness to spend a little bit of time and to reflect on initially what went wrong there. Why did I say something that I didn't— I should have phrased more artfully? And to recognize what was happening in that moment. So learning from those moments so that you can Very often, we operate within patterns. So, what are some of the patterns there? So, like say for example, someone challenges me at a meeting and I feel— and then all of a sudden, I get very defensive. My tone changes, how I express something. And so then, to be able to look at that and say, what's going on there? Why do I go into a defensive mode? And so, if we recognize that's a pattern, to be able to have a little bit of a pause when someone, say, challenges us. Take even a simple breath and then to say, okay, how do I want to say something? Or how do I want to do this in a way that is less harsh or has a greater impact within the room?

Tony Martignetti
I once was in a very contentious meeting with a team member of a client. And the person lashed back at me. You're just a consultant. Hmm. And I never addressed it. I just, I let it go. And I, maybe that was the wrong reaction, but I just, I focused on what it is we were there to talk about, the difficult conversation we were there to have. And I just, I let it go. I never addressed whether I was a consultant. Well, which she was correct. I mean, factually, it was correct. But, you know, it was It was meant to reduce me in the eyes of everybody else who was in the room who was an employee and I was the sole consultant. You're just a consultant. So, I don't know. Was I— you can give me a postmortem now. Was I right to just ignore it? Or should I have— and move on? Or should I have addressed it and said, well, you know, my opinion means— still has stature and resonance and I'm a consultant with a lot of experience? Yeah. You know, I don't know, can we do a postmortem with that?

Irvine Nugent
I actually think what— I actually think what you did was quite good in the sense of, I mean, there was a little bit of that— that was a deliberate, although I don't know how conscious she was or he was about that, but that was an attack on your identity. And very often when our identity is attacked, whoa, we go into defensiveness. But the thing about there is that was beside the point. You were trying to get at a really important issue there that really the fact that you were a consultant or not was not the issue there. Obviously There was some deep emotion within that person. And so if you had gone back and say, well, yes, I am a consultant, that I think that would've been a distraction away from really what was the core conversation there. And, and I think, um, not addressing it is one option. Another option would be just to be curious about, you know, to name it the person's frustration or whatever. Hey, I'm hearing that you're really frustrated in this. Yeah. And what's going on here? Let's explore this a little bit more. What's the core frustration or whatever it is? Helping a person identify their frustration can very often be liberating and help them into a deeper conversation.

Tony Martignetti
What about another one? And I know you said this is not usually where you start your conversations, but I did want to start with the leadership skills, these arts. It's a skill or it's a combination of a skill and an art. You know, regulating your own emotions, you know, something that you identify as important for leadership.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And we've kind of touched on a little bit.

Irvine Nugent
Well.

Tony Martignetti
But please, you know, flesh it out a little.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. So, one of the most important things, our findings really in research, is this phenomenon of emotional contagion. And what we mean by emotional contagion is that we as human beings catch the emotions of other people very readily. And so, you know this, you walk into a room with a meeting and the boss comes in and the boss is tense. People catch that tension. They know, they don't have to be told, there's something in the air. And so therefore, the leader's ability to really show up with intention, to show up in the way that they want to, that's conducive to the meeting, is a very powerful skill to have. So first of all, to recognize, say for example, you're walking into a meeting and you're angry or pissed at something that's happened before, you're carrying that in. And if you don't address that or you don't take a little time just to decompress, that's going to be transferred into that meeting. And so, great leaders are able to say, even if they can't say, hey folks, I'm just a little annoyed at something I just heard about half an hour ago. It's not you. People can go, huh, okay. It's not us. So, that ability just to name, to be aware. And that's tough because In our daily reality, you know, our workdays are chaotic and they're fast, and we, we don't add in little moments to, to really become aware of how we're feeling. And, and it's interesting with contagion as well. If you walk into a meeting and you're anxious or angry, people will catch that. But the reverse is also true. And this is a beautiful art. If you walk into a meeting that has a lot of tension and people are full of anxiety and you walk in with great calmness, an approach, they'll catch your calmness as well. So, it's caught both ways. And I think, you know, so often leaders say, how do I influence people? That's a great way of influencing without even having to say a word.

Tony Martignetti
Setting the tone. Setting the tone. Leadership. Leaders set the tone.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Whether it's, you know, it's year after year, but even in the moment in a meeting, right? Like you said, an anxious room will sense your calmness.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
I love too your suggestion of kind of, I don't know, I think of it as defusing the room or defusing yourself. I just walked out of a difficult meeting and I may be carrying some of that with me into this meeting. So I apologize up front if anything spills over, you know, please give me a little grace for the next hour or something. I mean, just like a moment of vulnerability and humanity, right?

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think, I think we have this, this stupid notion that we have to be on 24 hours a day. That's ridiculous, you know. And people get that. People appreciate the honesty. They appreciate I'm having a bad day because I've had bad days as well. And, and there's— it's just very human. And I think it gives people a context to understand some behavior, and therefore people are much more willing then to go with the flow. And, and I think that's just very liberating.

Tony Martignetti
Empathy. But not going too far. Empathy as a leader skill.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, empathy is a— I have a little controversial take on this one because I think empathy is misunderstood. I think, you know, and you hear all these sort of, well, empathy is the number one skill. And empathy is critically important because empathy is this innate ability to connect with another human being. And to really help them understand that you are feeling what they're feeling or at least understanding. Where I think we fail with empathy is that at times, some people connote that with poor boundaries. And I think empathy is great as long as you have strong boundaries. And what I mean by that is empathy doesn't mean giving in. Empathy doesn't mean when someone breaks down crying, for example, that you hold off because they're crying. What it really means is, look, I understand this is tough for you. However, here's the conversation we need to have. And so, I think there's a balance there. Yes, empathy to make sure that a person feels heard, that there's a connection. However, not at the expense of creating solid boundaries, which are really important as well.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, that's good. Let's talk about boundaries.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Why they're so important. I don't want to personalize it. I'm such an adherent to boundaries, like my personal time, time off. I don't know, but it's not about— you have the PhD, so let's— you share your thinking about it.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, I think as a leader, I'll bring it from the context of leader. A leader I think the leader has to create great boundaries at different periods of their leadership. I think initially, as they become a leader, boundaries are really important, especially if you've been promoted within. I see very often people promoted within. I always say to new leaders, you have to readdress your boundaries. And it's not the other people that have to do that. You have to. You're the leader now. You've been promoted. And your relationship with people may be a little bit different. Yeah. And it's okay for you to address that. And in fact, the sooner the better. So I think creating, you know, what is appropriate, what's not appropriate. Time boundaries are really important. You know, I think we have some leaders who overwork, etc. And I think the unspoken expectation is people have to follow their example. And I think, you know, that's just a lack of clarity around what are the boundaries there that just because I do this doesn't mean you have to do this. Remote work. What are the boundaries with remote work? You know, very often, you know, everyone, hallelujah, we can work from home. But then that's kind of turned into To you know no boundaries around what's home, what's office, what's work, what's not, etc. So I think there's a lot of different boundaries. And then I think when it comes to the empathy conversation, it is the the boundary of of we're having this conversation, and whether you like it or not, and we we have to have the conversation, and we'll have a boundary around it. We're going to return to it instead of sometimes you know oh well we'll put it off and we'll We'll have the conversation next week or next week when you feel up to it, etc. And I think very often our boundaries then become very loose.

Tony Martignetti
The person who's promoted from within and now their relationships and their dynamics to other employees who maybe they were, you know, peers with yesterday and now they're either supervising them or they're supervising some other, but they're now at a leadership level. Where yesterday they weren't. Yes. They were colleagues organizationally. Do we have a conversation, an explicit conversation about what— you and I used to go to lunch and talk about the personalities, but that's not really appropriate anymore because of where I am in the organization now. I mean, do you have a conversation like that?

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
You don't just let it happen and, and like embarrass the person or something when they try to initiate a conversation like you used to have 24 hours ago?

Irvine Nugent
No. And I think, I think you have to call out the situation, and it's your responsibility, not the other person's.

Tony Martignetti
It is yours. Okay.

Irvine Nugent
And I think, and I think because— and I think it's— I think the other person will understand. It's not that. It's just, it's just saying, hey, you know what, I'm in this new position now, and I just gotta, I gotta be careful about conversations and who I'm seen with, etc. And, you know, I think that's the responsibility of the person. And I think if we address it early, it saves us from greater hurt later on. Because I think when you start changing things mid-course, you know, so say you begin and you don't really change anything. And then after a month or 2, you realize, oh, I shouldn't really be having these conversations. And then you address it, then I think it could causes more hurt. I think the person will accept clarity at the beginning. And I think that clarity so often is missing. And giving clarity is something that's a gift to another person.

Tony Martignetti
The other thing I would add to that is, you can't call me Tony anymore. It's Mr. Martignetti now.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
No, I'm kidding. No, please address me as Mr. Martignetti.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, you, you have ideas, wisdom around how our nonprofit leaders deal with conflict, can deal with conflict. Let's flesh out. I mean, now, because that's kind of why I wanted to start with the skills. So now we're bringing these skills to a conflict situation. I don't know if you want to give a hypothetical situation, but how do we help leaders deal with these conflict times?

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, I think, I think the first thing is that we have to normalize conflict. I think culturally, we deal very bad with conflict. We call it something that is bad, something that is, that we shouldn't be in, etc. And I always try to do is just normalize it. And I say, you know, at the core, what conflict is, conflict is the friction of different perspectives. So in other words, and that's human, and you're always going to have that. So, so any nonprofit leader, I'll say, you know, whenever you feel you're in a situation where there is tension or friction, I think the first response very often is either to move towards it to try and fix it, or to move away from it and to try and avoid it.

Tony Martignetti
And avoid it. Yeah.

Irvine Nugent
And I think the first response, instead of moving in or out, Is just to be curious about what's happening and to ask some curious questions. So say the hypothetical, Tony, maybe like say you have to give difficult feedback to an underperforming employee. Very common and people hate doing it. And so instead of, you know, avoiding the conversation, they'll get better, or moving in and trying to fix it immediately, is first of all, just be curious about that. What's happening here with this person? Has anything changed with this person? Curious about what circumstances they underperform. Just ask, you know, these curious, is there anything I don't know? There's anything missing information or data that would help me kind of assess what the situation is? So I

Tony Martignetti
think this is the empathy. This is the empathy that we talked about.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yeah, appropriate empathy of just really trying to be curious because I think when it comes to any difficult conversation, We want a person who we're having the conversation with to feel heard, to feel listened to. That doesn't mean we're agreeing with them, but just to feel heard. And then the second thing is in the midst of that, then to be able as well to have kind of the deeper conversation, which really is touching upon some of the points that we want to get to. And I think very often we don't get there because either we've avoided the conversation or we go into a fix-it mode where the person doesn't feel listened to and they agree to anything, and then nothing really happens. And so can we really get— and I think very often what I see time and time again, especially in feedback conversations, is that we never get to clarity. We never really get to what's really happening here. Can we really have clarity around what's happening and clarity around what we want to see improving? And I think if we have— we get to those moments, I think that's where the productive conversation is. However, there's so much emotional weight to get there. If we don't manage it well, we never— that's why we really don't get there. And that's why those skills we talked about initially are so important, because if we don't have them, it prevents us getting to really the core of the issue.

Tony Martignetti
I like to use the word or the phrase, I understand. I understand because I think it acknowledges that I've heard you, but it doesn't say that I agree. Yeah, I just understand.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that, Tony, as well, because I think that's— that is important, because I think many people feel that hearing people out, we are giving away almost our agreement, and we're not. I, you know, that I agree with what you're saying. No, I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the emotions you have. However, here's how I see it and here's what's happening.

Tony Martignetti
You have a good office anecdote that I saw in one of your clips with thumbs up and thumbs down.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Can you tell that story?

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. I remember when I was an intern in my first place of work was in England. I grew up in Northern Ireland and I worked in England. And I was just, you know, a kid of the block. I wanted to do well. And I had a friend who worked there. And I said to the friend, hey, you know, I want to do well here. Any advice? And he said, oh, he said, Sheila is the secretary. And it was one of these big offices, and she kind of was the gatekeeper, literally. And he said, you want to make it here, you've got to befriend her. So I kind of, you know, tried to befriend her, etc., etc. And then one day she put a thumbs up, and I said, what the hell is that? And then I was like, so I give her a thumbs up back, and I said to my friend, I think I'm in with her. but I'm not quite sure what that— what it is. And she said, oh, she said, you're in. She said, the thumbs up means the bosses come in in a good mood. The thumbs down means beware. And, uh, and at that stage as an intern, I was making tea and coffee and delivering the mail, all this stuff. But actually, it was this great, uh, perch to see what was happening. And I remember in the thumbs up days, people talked, there was a little joking. And as I delivered the mail and cups of tea, etc. And the thumbs down day, boy, the office That were closed. People left early. There was silence, and it was so visceral. It was just crazy from that, that, you know, that emotion spreading throughout the office.

Tony Martignetti
And that you saw it as an intern.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
You didn't have to be an insider to recognize it was so palpable.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. And I caught it myself. I was, you know, I, you know, I don't know if I were to have the wisdom to call it what it is now from my From my perspective now. However, then I can remember, you know, in the thumbs-down day, there was a little bit— my heart was beating a little bit. I wanted to get that mail as quickly as possible. I didn't want to see the boss the thumbs-down day. So I had caught it as a lowly intern.

Tony Martignetti
You grew up in Northern Ireland, and, uh, I like to explore with guests their— really their childhood, not, you know, in your adulthood what got you to where you are. You know, that's— sure, I don't know, that's less interesting to me. But, but But in childhood, there's often a connection between growing up and the work that the person is doing now. So it seems clear for you, but you grew up in Northern Ireland in the '70s, the era of the Troubles. Yeah. Because a lot of people may not know this history. Americans are typically quite bad at history, forget about our own. history of any other country or landmass. So explain what the troubles are and what you grew up in, the kind of conflict you grew up in.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. So around the late '60s, what had been happening really in the years before that was 2 really segments of the society. One would call themselves Catholic or Republican, the other would be Protestant or Unionist. At that stage, this— the Northern Irish state was created in 1922. It was a very— the weight and the politics and the power was slated towards one community, the Unionist community. And then back in the '60s was the reemergence of the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, who through violence wanted to liberate Northern Ireland to be part of the Republic. And it started a 40 to 50-year conflict. I mean, the tension's still there. Right. In which maybe 3,500 people died and basically started with shootings and bombings and kind of continued. So that was— I was born in '67. I am a child of the Troubles. My whole childhood was surrounded by this. My family were very impacted from the point of view I grew up in a pub. My father was a pub owner and our house is above the pub and our house, when I was 7, The pub was blown up in a bombing. And so, we lost our business and our home. And so, that was kind of that personal impact. But just, you know, but even then, Tony, one of the things that's interesting, you know, we call it the Troubles. This wasn't the Troubles. This is war. This is like people were dying and we can't even bring ourselves to call it war. We called it the Troubles, you know. Troubles. What are you doing?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, that's like a family You know, a difficult family conversation over Thanksgiving dinner.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
There's a little trouble. There's a little trouble in the other room.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. So here we have like, you know, the Irish are great at kind of, you know, minimizing, you know, their strife. So I think that really did place in my heart a real question about why do we have to be like this? You know, what is— my father was an amazing man. Always was very fair and taught me, you know, respect for the other side and kind of the listening, etc. And and I think that's where I got some of it from. But you know, it's it's such a um um it was a childhood really growing up with with a fear and a hatred of conflict.

Tony Martignetti
What do you remember about your your father's pub and your home? being destroyed. How old were you then?

Irvine Nugent
I was 7. Um, I was in bed sleeping. My parents were away and in Belfast. They came back. Um, my 4 sisters were upstairs. My mother had, uh, bought a dress for a wedding that she was going to. She went upstairs and my father took over the bartending. Uh, and then 2 masked gunmen came in. Uh, they placed a bomb on the counter And they said they had 5 minutes before this goes off. And so people kind of cleared the bar and my dad ran up, got my sisters and mother to run out the door and then grabbed me from the bed. And then he ran across the road and I remember kind of waking up and, and the memory is just basically a massive explosion, the kind of the roof lifting off the bar and, and kind of, but, you know, I, the one memory I have is that I remember my, my father was just a real passionate, you know, And I can remember him with a fist in his air, and a fist in the air, and I can remember him saying, like, "Watch me build again." Like he was defiant. He was defiant. He would not let these people win. And but that yeah, and and then the other memory I have is only a seven-year-old would have is I of course my parents put me back to school the next day. Your whole home and everything, but you got to go to school, you know. And so we go to school, and I remember being quite famous because we were on the BBC News, and I was like. Like this is kind of like oh you know and so it's funny how we deal with things like that but yeah it's kind of that that mixture of memories.

Tony Martignetti
Your father rebuilt

Irvine Nugent
the pub and he built and he said I'm not going to build the home on top of the bars and I'm going to build it separate but he rebuilt it and and in fact to tell you his grit Tony a week after the bombing he had managed to get a tent or a tent he got tables and chairs he got booze and he got neighbors to bring tables you know and and he opened a week later that's how defined he was. Was in the car park. And, uh, you know, and then, and then that was the pub, was in the tent, and then he built it and took a year later and it reopened.

Tony Martignetti
There's something interesting about the way, you know, a heinous attack is committed like that though. They, they did give warning. They said 5 minutes. So they, they didn't want to kill people.

Irvine Nugent
No,

Tony Martignetti
they just wanted to, they wanted to make a statement but not go so far as to As to murder.

Irvine Nugent
Yes. Yeah. And at that stage of the conflict, the conflict had really different stages. But at that stage, the early stages, the strategy was to bomb the economic life out of the North. And so then, you know, the Brits would leave. But so that was it, you know, kind of destroy as many businesses as possible. And the other thing as well, my father would serve. So we came from a Catholic background, and my father would serve off-duty policemen. And he got warnings. I didn't realize at the time, but he got warnings. If you don't stop serving them, we're going to blow the place up. And that's what That's what they did.

Tony Martignetti
Just because he was serving law enforcement? Yes.

Irvine Nugent
Who were predominantly from the other community.

Tony Martignetti
So, all right. And now you do conflict resolution work and skills that we need to bring into conflict. So thank you for sharing that.

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. Another episode of Tales from the Gym. I was invited last week to sign a birthday card for someone at the gym who's a regular who's turning 91, and it was last Friday. We're recording this on Monday now. The guy who asked me to sign the card, I don't know his name. The guy whose 91st birthday it was, I don't know his name. Because, you know, I don't talk to anybody. But the guy with the card, the guy shilling the card, you know, he recognizes my face, of course. He said, you're a regular. So he said, it's Jerry's birthday. I mean, I learned now it's Jerry's birthday. It's Jerry's birthday. I was like, who's Jerry? Yeah. And Jerry's the older guy. And the one who was soliciting the card was no spring chicken. He was, he's, he's probably north of 80 himself. But he, so he said where Jerry sits and yeah, I know who he is. And he's the guy who comes in. Actually, I may have mentioned him in A Tale from the Gym. He comes in, Jerry, the 91-year-old, comes in with a walker. Oh, wow. Every couple times a week, whenever, you know, I don't know how, you know, we don't have the same schedules. But when the guy makes it to the gym, he's coming with a walker. And that's impressive. Like, remember the woman? I know I have talked about this woman who comes with the supplemental oxygen tank. First I saw her on the treadmill, and then she was in our class for— she came to a couple classes, but she's not in the class anymore. But she— I still see her in the gym on the treadmill. Yeah. supplemental oxygen tank strapped to her waist. No, her back. No, it's a backpack. It's a backpack. So there's some folks who, you know, if they can do it, you can do it. In any case, I signed the birthday card. I just signed Jim Rat because nobody knows my name. And the guy who was soliciting the card said, well, you're a Jim Rat. So I signed it Jim Rat. And then I asked him today, I saw the card solicitor whose name I still don't know. Did you know how did Jerry like the card? Did you give Jerry the card? Turns out Jerry didn't show up for his 91st birthday workout. Maybe he was just taking his birthday off. I hope. I mean, I hope he's hope he's still with us. I hope Jerry. Hope Jerry hasn't died. He hasn't. He hasn't shown. He didn't show today and. And he didn't show on Friday. Hope Jerry's okay. Otherwise, we're stuck with this card. What are we gonna do with this card now? The poor guy soliciting the card is gonna be stuck with it. All right. Happy 91st birthday, Jerry. That is Tony's Take 2. Kate.

Kate Martignetti
Happy 91st birthday, Jerry. And good for you for still going to the gym. 91. That's an incredible age.

Tony Martignetti
I hope Jerry's around to, uh, receive your, your good wishes.

Kate Martignetti
Yes. We've got beaucoup buttloads more time. Here's the rest of Emotional Intelligence for Leaders with Irvine Nugent.

Tony Martignetti
I got chills, you know. I, I, I get chills listening to that as Trying to imagine a 7-year-old seeing, seeing everything, you know, just destroyed. I mean, all you have is the clothes on your back.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
And yet your father's defiance, right, right in the moment.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah,

Tony Martignetti
it was that, it was that, it was that in that moment, he said, I'm gonna— watch me rebuild. Yeah.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, absolutely. In that moment, he— yeah, extraordinary man. And I mean, for me, I always say, Tony, I always say, that was for me, the first moment of leadership I ever saw, you know, kind of how, how a person can respond, you know, because it's the old adage, you know, it's great to be a leader when things are going well, but it's when, you know, what hits the fan, then that's really the true mettle of a person. And just to see the way that he was able to, to be, be clear what he wanted to do, to bring together the village— he brought the village together and they responded as well. And that was pure leadership. And he would never see himself as a leader. Never.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for sharing all that, Irvine. Okay. So dealing with conflict, leaders dealing with conflict, you want us to, you know, again, like self-regulation. But in the moment, How do we do that so that we're not escalating and allowing it to become personal against us or even personal against the other, toward the other person or people? Yeah. You know, you don't want them to take it personally. I mean, well, the way they take it is the way they take it, but you don't want to become personal yourself. You don't want to lash out personal attacks. But if you get personal attacks, you know, how to self-regulate, How to de-escalate. I mean, there's so much talk now in the news about law enforcement, you know, the, the, the, some of the value— the, the most valuable training is de-escalation.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And a lot of that is self-regulation.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
As well as regulating others.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Talk about all this that I just threw on you.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. So, I think— I

Tony Martignetti
just opened the whole pot. Go ahead.

Irvine Nugent
So, I think the self-regulation is, is kind of what we were talking about before. I think leaders who Are spend a little bit of time building an emotional vocabulary. I think very often leaders who are quick to react and, and go off the deep end, etc., really, I think their emotional vocabulary is very limited. And I think what, what I mean by that is if you spend a little bit of time really noticing your reactions, because it's not just the emotions that you feel in your body. So, I think if you are getting defensive and you recognize you're getting defensive, you're going to have a reaction. You're going to learn to notice the tension in your body, the tension perhaps in your hands. You're going to realize getting a little more flushed, a little hotter. And so, all of these are signals. Okay. Or you might find yourself just subtly moving into a conversation. And instead of, you know, and so, can you get hotter? Or else you're kind of becoming more distant. These are signals that can be indicators to really notice what's happening and to, I like to say, ask a question. How do I want to lead in this moment? Like, what kind of leader do I want to show up here? Because I think at times we just go into that automatic. So, it's disrupting the automatic that's really important.

Tony Martignetti
So, you're kind of operating on 2 planes.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
You're thinking about yourself. It's self-awareness.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
But you're also in a conversation.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
With another person.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. And that's a skill that has to be developed. That just doesn't come to us. Some people are better at it than others, but everyone can learn it. But you have to spend a little time. There are no quick fixes here. This is a little time of really learning kind of what is my operating system because it's unique. It's different than your operating system. What's going to get you is not going to get me. And so, it's those patterns that show up, those trigger patterns, and spend a little bit of time learning what is triggering us, I think, is really essential because then we understand a little bit more why is that getting to me? Why is that? Why is my button being pressed? And if we understand that, then we can add a little bit of space so that we're able then to have greater choice. And that's really what's important. The second thing I just want to— on taking things personal, it's very easy to take things personally. You know, you get feedback, you take it personally because we are You have silence. If you text someone, you don't get a response, they go into story mode. We go into story modes. So, as human beings, we create stories where there is no data to support it. And I think another question then is understanding our emotional life but understanding what story are we in. And I always like to say to leaders when I'm coaching them is like, if this is a case, if this is a court of law, I say, would there be enough evidence to support your story? I don't think there would be. You know? So, in other words, where is the story? You know, what's it based on? And really then to diminish the story and to say, Okay, I need more data. I need better data if this is the assumption I've arrived at.

Tony Martignetti
Addressing things early to prevent the resentment that you talked about earlier. You know, things grow, we go into story mode if things are not dealt with. You— yeah, we talked a little about this, you know, addressing issues head-on, not letting them Fester. But say a little more, please, about addressing things head-on, directly, which will become much easier.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Well, the thing about it is, you know, we fool ourselves. I'm— by the way, this is one of my mechanisms that I used, you know, before I became more skilled. One is— so in other words, what you say is there's a problem, and you fool yourself into saying, well, I'll just let this simmer down a little bit. And then, I'll address it later when tension has gone away. And the problem is now that can be a good initial thought. But the follow-up never happens because things then cool down and then it's left and left. So, I always think, deal with it now. What I'm not saying is if a person's coming at you really hot, really angry, that might not be the real. But to address it then saying, hey, I'm seeing there's a lot of emotion around this for you. And I think we should have a conversation about it. How about we meet tomorrow or meet this afternoon? Don't— you don't have to have it in that moment when a person's really hot. But to really address it one-on-one, I mean, how many times have people said they've been given feedback 3 months after something's been said? Or they've had a mid-year review or an annual review and something's been brought up from 5 months ago. The resentment, the hurt of, well, why wasn't that addressed then? Right. So, I think, you know, really addressing it early is a gift to the person and it's really saying, you know, let's talk about this now in the moment because if we don't, then it never really translates as well.

Tony Martignetti
It is a gift to the person. Yeah, they may not recognize their gift and they may never see the value of the gift.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Diffused a situation.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
From, from becoming something bigger. And, and you can, I guess you can rest comfortably knowing that you've, you've prevented something from, from escalating. Yeah. The other person may not realize it, but, you know, you can, you can recognize it, that you, you've, you've done something good for the organization.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And for the two of you and for the people, not just—

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Not just the institution, but for the people.

Irvine Nugent
Oh, it was— that will spread. I mean, you know, the point is any relationship that that are in which there's been an impasse or, or which there is conflict, when, when that is set towards reconciliation or healing or whatever, that impacts everyone because people feel that, because people feel the tension when it's not.

Tony Martignetti
You do some work around truth detection.

Irvine Nugent
I do.

Tony Martignetti
Is body— is that body language or, or verbal cues? What— now that sounds like to me that could be a 2-day full, you know, 2-day, 9-hour-a-day workshop and training. But I don't know, can you— well, you need to. Yeah, it's basically— Can you give us a few-minute overview of—

Irvine Nugent
Sure. It's really built on— so instead of truth detection, really what I always say is this is trying to assess credibility. So in other words, how do you assess how credible what a person is saying to you? And it's using a scientific approach to that because the problem with body language is you can look up Google and And it'll tell you 19 million different things. 17 million of them or 18 million are useless. And so, it really is trying to get to a science. And then really what it is, it's using the channels through which we communicate. And what I mean by that is our facial expressions, our body language, the tone of our voice, all of those things. And to really get a picture of those. And as we move through a conversation, taking a good baseline and then recognizing when there are changes in that baseline and what does that point to. And so, in other words, if a person in a sense is— so just say in an interview situation, say a person is fabricating some past experience that's not real, then to be able to notice some subtle changes that are happening in their body language, their facial expression. Et cetera, that are not coherent. And for you then to become curious, this is not like a science to say, hey, you're lying. But it's really to notice, like, it's really interesting. Tony just told me that he worked or he's a master's degree, and there was just stuff happening. His changes with his head, changes with a fear expression on his face. Let me explore that a little bit more. And so it points to— it's— this is a hypothesis. And so therefore, I need to explore this a little bit more. The TV program is a little sexier than in reality, but it really is using the data to drive more solid conclusions about what's being said and is it credible.

Tony Martignetti
So, I guess our faces could give us away or can be able to tell our speech or maybe accelerate or we try to emphasize more the the fabrication than we were the other things in the conversation?

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. So, so like, for example, we have 7 universal emotions, and those emotions are signaled in the face and, and the way the muscles move. And so we know what fear looks like, we know what happiness, sadness, etc. There are genuine emotions. And so someone is trying to hide an emotion, should just say, um, you're trying to hide— I've asked a question and you're fearful or you're angry, and you say, I I don't want to show that. Well, what happens is emotions are so quick that we'll show it in our face and we try and show it. We

Tony Martignetti
don't want to show it, but we show it.

Irvine Nugent
We show it and we try and suppress it. But by the time we suppress it, it's too late. It's already leaked is what we say. And if you're trained, you can pick up on that leaking. And, you know, so yeah, it can be used for truth detection, but it can really be used in some useful things. Say you give a deadline to your team and say, hey, I need this done by by Thursday, and all of a sudden you're noticing a few people are fearful or angry, then you know, oh, they're not saying that, but their faces are telling you something different. And it's just an opportunity to say, hey, let's talk about that deadline. Is that realistic? What, what are some of the stuff that's coming up? So it's, it's a really useful skill that you can really implement.

Tony Martignetti
It sounds like more empathy.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Without, without being accusational. I mean, I guess in some Some situations, you know, it could be confrontational, but, but you can use it again to, to be empathic and, and pick up a cue that, uh, Thursday is not— Thursday— is Thursday realistic for you? And then give them the space to say, not really.

Irvine Nugent
Absolutely. And you're— and then you're either doing that through facial expressions, body language, um, speech. Sometimes the speech changes, um, and, and you're picking up on those cues to like, oh, okay, now let me explore this a little bit more.

Tony Martignetti
In a lot of these conversations that we're talking about, you recommend that we end with clarity. And what— how do we do that? And why— what does that mean and how do we do it?

Irvine Nugent
Yeah. So, I think at the core of many conversations that are missing kind of the target is a real lack of clarity. Let me just give you an example. I like, I have, I've been in conversations with employees or I'm coaching employees who are supposed to have received feedback from their boss on exactly what they're supposed to work on. And it is shocking the lack of clarity around that. And yet, if you ask the boss, the boss will say, oh, I was very clear, very clear about what it was. Yeah. And then you ask the employees, well, I think I know. And, you know, very often again, sometimes the, you know, but, but it, but it, the employee's kind of saying that just Just because they don't want to recognize. But very often, it is this lack of clarity. And I think whenever we are trying to address behavior, that clarity is so important about really what's at the core of the issue here. Or if we're debating an idea or what a conflict is about, very often we name surface things. And we're really not getting to really what is the conflict about. And that's what the clarity I'm talking about, the real clarity about what is the core issue here. And if we have clarity around what the core issue is, then we can have a conversation about it. And very often we get into arguments or conflict about things that are not at the core.

Tony Martignetti
And this has to take precedence over comfort in a conversation.

Irvine Nugent
Yes, yes. I think, and I think It's it's a great balance, Tony, because I think that's why the work we talked about, the awareness work, is really important. Because if we are not emotionally intelligent enough with a good foundation, then I think we will veer away from uncomfortable situations. But to the extent that we're able to say, "Ooh, I'm really uncomfortable here." This is, but then to kind of okay, I can stay in this discomfort. For the moment, because I know it's going to get us to a place that we need to be. I mean, I've worked with teams and and we've done some skill building. And one of the things that that the team will say, you know, as they're reflecting back on what's changed is, boy, you know, I thought if we had that conversation, we were just going to get into a pitch battle and knock each other out. And I'm just surprised that we were able to get where we were. It was uncomfortable, but we got there. And I think people are surprised that they can. They can sit in the discomfort enough to get to where they need to go, and then all of a sudden it's like, "Ha! Okay, that didn't destroy us. We were able to have this conversation without falling apart."

Tony Martignetti
So the discomfort is like is an opportunity.

Irvine Nugent
Yes, absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
If you're willing to sit, you're saying the way you say it. If you're willing to sit in it for for enough time to explore.

Irvine Nugent
Yes, and I think I think the way I try and reframe it is the discomfort. Is actually a signal that you are getting to where you need to be. The discomfort actually is that this is something important. If it wasn't important, we wouldn't feel this discomfort we're feeling. And so it's just this ability to know that this discomfort is about, I'm worried about what I'm going to say. I'm worried about perhaps what the other person will say. I'm worried, am I going to make this situation worse? These are all You know things that we go through our mind, but but the fact that we want to pursue and get to where we need to be is a good sign.

Tony Martignetti
You got some interesting stuff behind you on a on a shelf. You've got you've got your book, which is Leadership Lessons from the Pub. We we heard one extraordinary leadership lesson from your dad. What what else is is this? This is from the pub when you were a child.

Irvine Nugent
It was yeah. I I became fascinated. The Irish culture has this pub culture, which is very different and unique. And what I loved about it was it was this unique place of welcome, belonging, community.

Tony Martignetti
Community.

Irvine Nugent
And I became fascinated by what's happening here and how can we bring some lessons back into the work from a, you know, that kind of— because I think the number one complaint in the workplace for many people is they don't feel they belong, they don't feel they listen to, etc. So what are some of the lessons of this unique place? So yeah, so the kind of the book is about these are different lessons coming from that situation that can really help build community and build a culture that people want to belong to.

Tony Martignetti
I've always been curious about this because I've heard that, and I understand that in Ireland, maybe England too, maybe less so, or maybe in rural England, that the pub is a community center.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
But people are— so what I wonder about is people are drinking.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
I mean, so how effective is the community, you know, when people are tanked? You know, if it's a real community, I mean, I like to go a couple times a week maybe.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
How effective is the community building when people are always shitfaced?

Irvine Nugent
Well, I mean, I think I think there are moments when people are shit-faced, but I think the majority of the it's not around that. The majority is we're going just for a few drinks and a chat, and I think it's like it's like we would have a few glasses of wine and sit at a table where in the Irish situation is different. I'll go to the pub, and what's interesting about that is people go there and they they're very vulnerable people. You know, there's a lot of the Irish have a little sarcasm going, etc., etc., and you come and you tell your tale of woe, and you tell why. What happened today, and people laugh at you, and you. But it's this camaraderie, and and there is you know I always say to people if you go to a pub in Ireland and you're sitting by yourself, don't be offended because someone is going to come towards you because they want to bring people into the circle. This is this is kind of where we go, where we meet, where we laugh, where we sing, where we bring what's upsetting us, and we have a conversation. You know, you know the famous thing was if Irish pubs ever close that they'd have to double the amount of psychologists and psychiatrists. Thank you.

Tony Martignetti
You're the perfect person to ask that. All right. Thank you. I understand. I understand better. It's just, yeah, like you're saying, here in the States, you know, might be over, over a glass of wine, a couple glasses of wine or something, or a glass of wine with friends. It's just, it's more communal, you know, that would be a table at a restaurant. But here, it's, it's the center of like, is there, is there one pub in a small town that's, that's the place to go to? Yeah, there's a couple of pubs. Oh, well, multiple pubs, and then people like— you have your own, you have the pub, and you would never go to the other one that's only a block away, but you only go to the one that's, that's yours.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah, we have an expression, your local. So like, your local is your local, that's where you go to. And every town will have 4 or 5 pubs, there's never just one. Um, so, you know, but you would go to all this, but, but your local is the one that you're kind of— that's your place, that's where you go to. And, uh, yeah, so that, that's kind of And, you know, people are there and they get to know and they build up friendships. The other great thing, it's a very egalitarian place. You know, you can have a farmer, a fisherman, a CEO, et cetera, and they're all there having a joke, et cetera. It's not very class-based, which is lovely. It's people, you know, coming from different walks of life and they go in and they have a great chat.

Tony Martignetti
That sounds very distinctive from the US.

Irvine Nugent
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Which is, I think, pretty class distinctive. All right. Interesting. All right. Thank you. Thanks. The other thing you have, You have these interesting little, I don't know, figures, dolls.

Irvine Nugent
Yes, yes.

Tony Martignetti
There's a scowling red man, looks like a boss because he's got a tie, but his face is red and his hands are red. And there are people in green and purple and yellow. What are these figures on your shelves?

Irvine Nugent
So, they're from the movie Inside Out. And Inside Out 1 and 2 was a movie, a Disney movie about emotions. Actually, the scientific Director of the movie. He actually just passed away recently, but was really the grandfather of all work on emotions, which is Paul Ekman. And so what the movie tries to do is really talk about our emotional life. And so each one of these characters is a different emotion— anger and happiness and sadness and fear— and talks about their role in our lives. And I always use the movie when I'm training, and I always say to people coaching, watch it. It's actually very accurate. And gives a wonderful beginning insight into the power of knowing our emotional life.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. And up on the top, there's a sign. I've seen that, but I don't know how to pronounce it.

Irvine Nugent
It's sláinte, and it's the Irish for cheers, and it literally means to your health. Slán is the Irish word for health. So sláinte, to your health.

Tony Martignetti
To your health, to your emotional health.

Irvine Nugent
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Irvine, thank you. This is beautiful. Thank you very much.

Irvine Nugent
My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

Tony Martignetti
Irvine, Irvine Nugent. And Irvine is I-R-V-I-N-E. Irvine Nugent, you'll find him at irvinenugent.com and on LinkedIn. His book is Leadership Lessons from the Pub. Irvine, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.

Irvine Nugent
Likewise. Thank you.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, we kick off our 26th NTC coverage with Consider the Human Factors and A Conversation with the CEO. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, find it at tonymartignetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show's Our social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great.