"Sell" Your Nonprofit

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd come down with hebetude if you dulled me with the idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate with what's on the menu.

Kate Martignetti
Hey Tony, we're serving Sell Your Nonprofit, encouraging you to know your nonprofit as your product. Jason Barnaby wants you to talk about it in a way that makes people curious to learn more. Drawing them closer to your work. Also, he'd like to see you outside your comfort zone, growing as you share your story with donors and volunteers. Jason's company is Fire Starters, Inc. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
26 NTC was fantastic.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Sell your nonprofit.

Tony Martignetti
It's a pleasure to welcome to Nonprofit Radio someone who has lived a lot of life in the life he's lived. Jason Barnaby is an Indiana University grad and founding member of the Indiana University Dance Marathon, Colorado ski bum, European coffee shop owner, business university professor in Poland, corporate trainer, and now podcast host of the Sales Spark podcast. And he's a fractional sales leader. His company is at firestartersinc.com, and the Chief Firestarter is on LinkedIn. Jason Barnaby, welcome to Nonprofit Radio.

Jason Barnaby
Tony, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Tony Martignetti
It's my pleasure. I'm glad you are. From Indiana. Congratulations. Congratulations, IU, and the big sports win.

Jason Barnaby
Thank you. We're all, we're all still a little bit in shock and wishing we were back in Miami because today the wind chill, it was -22 at 8 o'clock this morning.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, damn.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
-22.

Jason Barnaby
It was 7 below, you know, temperature, but the wind chill might have been -22.

Tony Martignetti
3 times worse. Awful. All right. But the state is excited because that was Indiana University history this sports tournament.

Jason Barnaby
First time ever. First time ever. Big deal. First time. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And you were at the game.

Jason Barnaby
I was. And it was a last-minute decision. And I've posted about it a few times on LinkedIn and just what happens when you show up. And I think not only in life, I've drawn some lessons also from that experience that I think are also pertinent to sales.

Tony Martignetti
See what— it's a good thing we have skilled guests in terms of segues, smooth segues, because listeners know that you're suffering with a lackluster host on a good day, lackluster. So what are That's an elegant segue to the idea of starting fires and sparking momentum. I have to call out for folks, they're not gonna see the video, that the company is Fire Starters Inc. Jason is the chief fire starter. He's on brand with an orange glowing, like orange colored fleece.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
His mic screen, you know, the little sponge thing that's over a mic, it's called a mic screen. Orange.

Jason Barnaby
I just got this the other day too.

Tony Martignetti
The, the linkage, uh, the road— I don't know how you say the name of that mic. Roadie? Road?

Jason Barnaby
I think it's Rode.

Tony Martignetti
Rode. The, the arm, the, the articulating arm that holds his mic is orange.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah, always be branding.

Tony Martignetti
All in on fire and spark. All right, so let's talk about, uh, sparking fires. But, uh, you know, of course we don't We talk about sales. We don't want the the pejorative sense of sales.

Jason Barnaby
Correct, and and if you ever do set something on fire, one of the things I always say is with proper fire safety in mind because that's it's very important. It is it is fun to set things on fire in a safe and in controlled environment.

Tony Martignetti
Very good. Were you a Boy Scout?

Jason Barnaby
I was not.

Tony Martignetti
Okay.

Jason Barnaby
I was a Cub Scout, but I was a professional. I grew up back in the day where we, you know, you had an empty lot between houses and we did a gigantic bonfire of all the limbs that came down through the season. And, you know, all of us boys and girls would stand around and, you know, throw logs on the fire. So I've, I've been obsessed with fire since I was a kid, but in a health— I would say in a healthy way.

Tony Martignetti
Healthy and safe way.

Jason Barnaby
Yes, absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
With proper precautions. Okay. Interesting. So even the fire thing, the fire Thread theme, uh, goes back to— go back— goes back to childhood.

Jason Barnaby
It does.

Tony Martignetti
We're already at your childhood and we're only 5 minutes into this thing. All right. Um, yeah, so we don't want the pejorative definition of sales, right? Sparking sales. And of course nonprofits, you know, but there are— there are, you know, we're not— we're not selling, but we are fundraising. And a lot of fundraising, uh, is a is a sales process. Absolutely. So there are lessons that you otherwise, you know, if there were no lessons, why would we be talking? Of course, there's more than just some overlap. There's a lot that we can learn in terms of relationships and advancing our product. Why don't we start with that? You know, the importance that you talk about, the importance of knowing your product. Those of us In the nonprofit community, we have products.

Jason Barnaby
Sure.

Tony Martignetti
We have missions. Yeah. Share your wisdom on product knowledge.

Jason Barnaby
Would love to. It's interesting to me when you ask people, you can do this with anybody, but I think I see it more with nonprofits when you say, tell me what you do. And that is an opportunity in sales for for you to make somebody curious. That is an opportunity to invite them into your story of why you're doing what you're doing, um, who you're doing it with, what you actually do. And I will tell you, I hear a lot of people when you ask nonprofits, what do you do? And they'll go, well, it's kind of hard to explain. Well, guess what? Right there, you've already lost me. Yeah. If it's hard to explain, How are you going to tell your donors about it? How are you going to tell your volunteers about it? So, the ability to— I love this word— pithily describe what it is that you do. And what I mean is, what is the action? Who does it? Who does it help? Why is it important? You can do all that in about 30 seconds. Yeah. But it's amazing to me how much people don't ever think about that, don't practice that. And so, when you ask the question and you get this, well, we sort of, or we kind of, which I have to tell you, Tony, I've been an adjunct English professor for years, and those words of sort of and kind of when you describe business drive me nuts because do you sort of do it or do you do it? Do you kind of do it or do you really do it? Because if you sort of do it, I'm not really interested. I want to be with somebody who says, this is what we do and this is how we do it. And I think a really easy exercise for founders and boards of nonprofits to do is to come up with what I call your elevator pitch or whatever you want to call it, your 30-second, here's what we do, here's how we do it, and here's who we serve and why. Yeah. And practice it. Does it sound good? Is it something that I would like when you say it? Is it something you yourself would want to listen to? If you say it and you go meh at the end, it's probably not a great description. And so trying it out on people, does this make you curious? Does this give you— do you feel like you know what we do from this description? Donald Miller, who wrote a great book, I highly recommend this book. Yeah. And for, for nonprofits as well. It's called Building a StoryBrand. He talks about, can your organization pass the sniff test? He talks about it in terms of going to your website. But could— does your description pass the sniff test? If, if you're done saying what you say to me, do, do I have a really good understanding? Or at least I'm curious to ask a couple of more questions.

Tony Martignetti
To learn— curious to learn more.

Jason Barnaby
Exactly.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Yeah, I like the idea of making folks curious about your work. You can't, you can't squeeze everything into the 30-second explanation. But do they want to learn more? Now, I've heard advice that, that, that 30-second pitch also be shared with board members. You know, they should be—

Jason Barnaby
100%.

Tony Martignetti
They're certainly your strongest volunteer advocates. They should be versed in the pitch.

Jason Barnaby
Yes. And I mean, I do a lot of sales training. I lead a lot of sales training. I design a lot of sales training. And one of the things that I recommend that salespeople do all the time in the training, and I think it's a great activity for a board, is every time you have a board meeting, 2 or 3 people are in the hot seat, on the spotlight, whatever, for them to share what their version of that thing is. I don't believe necessarily in a script, a word-for-word thing, because the word The words I use may not be the words that you use. I believe in making sure that the concepts and the ideals and the values, that those things are all there, but you're going to say it differently than I do. And so, do we give people an opportunity to stand in front of their peers and say, this is how I say it? Because I believe, and I say this with salespeople, and I think it's true with nonprofits, you can fool people that don't know anything about your nonprofit, but when you're talking to your board that knows all the ins and outs— Right. I think that's more stress and pressure to present in front of those folks that you know and trust than it is somebody who's never heard of your nonprofit. And I'm also a firm believer that growth starts at the end of your comfort zone. So this is a great way to get uncomfortable.

Tony Martignetti
Growth starts at the end of your comfort zone. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Personally, I'm feeling that publishing a book this year, which I've—

Jason Barnaby
you have 2 books.

Tony Martignetti
You have 2 books about sales. I have I have no books, but I will by—

Jason Barnaby
You will. Congratulations. I can't wait to welcome you into the club.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. By the end of September, I will.

Jason Barnaby
Excellent.

Tony Martignetti
But yeah, no, let's talk more about that. I think that's really— that's not only related, I think maybe that's essential to your work, is going beyond your comfort zone. If it's not essential, it's very important to your work and to To your methodology.

Jason Barnaby
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Getting outside our comfort zone. Why is that valuable for ourselves on the personal level and for our nonprofits?

Jason Barnaby
That's a great question. So here's, here's the way that— here's a couple of things I say about comfort zones. The thing about comfort zones and why they are so hard to leave is because they're comfortable. I spend a lot of time, money, and energy making myself comfortable. And so, you know, I tell people my ultimate comfort zone is on a Sunday afternoon, especially in the winter when you don't want to go outside. On a Sunday afternoon, I'm, I'm in my favorite fleece flannel PJs. I DoorDash my favorite food. I'm binge-watching my favorite thing on whatever streaming platform. You would be hard-pressed to get me to leave that situation because it is so comfortable. And yet you may challenge me to go do something out, you know, get out of that situation to go do something where I'm going to have great growth. And the other thing is, and I know this from sales, most people hate being uncomfortable. Silence is something that a lot of people are uncomfortable with. I try to teach salespeople to get uncomfortable with silence. I don't believe the BS of Like you put the price out there and then the first person to talk loses. I'm not a fan of that approach of things. However, if you are more comfortable with silence than the person that you are talking to, you can just sit there and be okay. They are not going to be, and eventually they will continue the conversation. If you get comfortable having difficult conversations, so many of us run these difficult conversations in our heads and we think we know, well, I'm going to say this, which means they're going to say that, and then I'm going to say this and they're going to say that. Man, that's going to be really hard. And I don't want to hurt their feelings and all these other things. And then if— because I don't think oftentimes people actually have it, but if they have that conversation, very often they look back on it and go, gosh, that wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. Yeah. But you will never know that if you stay in the place that's comfortable. And I'll give you one other quick analogy. I used to live in Colorado, sitting on top of a mountain with a good friend of mine. And he said, we were above the tree line, beautiful. You could see for miles. And we were the only 2 on the summit. And this guy was a man of few words, but when he did, he was kind of like, you'll remember the EF Hutton commercial, right? When EF Hutton speaks, he was kind of my EF Hutton.

Tony Martignetti
When EF Hutton speaks, people listen.

Jason Barnaby
People listen. Exactly. So we're sitting there and I said, man, it's so beautiful up here. I could stay up here all day. And he didn't say anything. And I could tell because we were friends that he was thinking. And he said, he said, you know, finally he turned to me and he said, you know, Jason, he said, you're right. It's amazing up here. It's beautiful. Um, sun's on our face. It's, it's great. He said, but look around. He said, we're above the tree line. Nothing lives up here. Nothing's alive up here. He said, Look around. He said, where's the— where are the greenest parts of what you see? They're down in the valleys where the roots go down, where you— where, where the work is happening and where— so you have to leave this place where everything's wonderful and go down into the place where things are hard and muddy and, um, growth. And, and I think that that's very true. And I, I actually wear a shirt very often. I don't have one on today, but I say comfortable being uncomfortable. And I've— I'm amazed at how many people have reached out to me on LinkedIn to say, tell me more about that, or I'm that same kind of person, or I wish I were like that. And I, I have just found over and over and over again that the more comfortable I get with discomfort, the less discomfort, the less uncomfortable it becomes.

Tony Martignetti
And that's, that's personal growth. And personal growth is going to lead to organizational growth. Absolutely. And, you know, I,

Jason Barnaby
I think I've been on— my dad started a nonprofit years ago. I was on that board after he left. I've been on boards of other nonprofits. And one of the things that I think that I've seen is one of the biggest killers to growth is when somebody says, what if we did X? And the response to that is, well, we've never done that before.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Jason Barnaby
What's going to happen if we do that? Well, what if it fails? What if, you know, and all the reasons for not doing it, which—

Tony Martignetti
The naysayers. I have no tolerance for the naysayers.

Jason Barnaby
No, I don't either. And I will say, as I've gotten older, I do understand the necessity to go through that exercise and say, here are all the things that could go wrong. I don't think that's a bad exercise. If— let's say you spend 10 minutes talking about all the things that could go wrong. Fine. Can we now also spend 10 minutes dreaming about what happens if everything goes right and it's incredibly successful? Because we let these discomfort, these uncomfortable thoughts about failure or whatever it happens to be, or we've never done it that way. My wife grew up in communistic Poland and we lived there together for 8 years. So, when people tell me that's the way it's always been, I just get a rash. It just doesn't— Yeah. I don't like it. I'm like, Polish people said that to me. They're like, well, we've never done it that way. We've always done it this way. And I'm like, yeah, and that was Russian occupation. How did that go for you? Do we want to go back to that? I don't think we do. So it's necessary. I think the question, what if, is an incredibly powerful question, but you have to be willing to get uncomfortable with whatever the answers are to that question.

Tony Martignetti
A little discomfort. Growth. It's growth. What was your dad's nonprofit? Just quickly, what did that—

Jason Barnaby
He started an inner-city youth hangout place on Friday nights and then also was just— started a food pantry in the neighborhood that he lived in. And I will tell you, He also had a business in that same neighborhood, and we were remodeling a building in that neighborhood. We got nothing done the 2 days that we were there because I was working with him and people would come by and they're like, hey, Jerry, and thanks for helping my family. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for doing that. And then somebody would say, is this your dad? Man, I love your dad. Let me tell you about— and they would just tell me stories about him visiting them if they were in jail or bringing food when they didn't have it or helping them get their electricity turned back on. Wow. Just really that grassroots in the neighborhood. I mean, he could have been the mayor of that area because we would drive or walk through the neighborhood and everybody's like, oh, it's Jerry. Hey, Jerry. What's up, Jerry?

Tony Martignetti
Was this Indiana? Did you grow up in Indiana?

Jason Barnaby
Yeah. South side of downtown Indianapolis.

Tony Martignetti
Help us to To sell our nonprofit, our work, our— what you call the product, but to prospects, potential donors.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Again, not the pejorative definition of selling, but we're in a business of persuasion. We need to bring people to us.

Jason Barnaby
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
We need to bring people to our cause. to support it financially or with their time.

Jason Barnaby
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Or with their connections.

Jason Barnaby
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Or if they're on the board, their knowledge and their connections. We need to attract people to our work.

Jason Barnaby
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
How do we do that?

Jason Barnaby
I think one of the most compelling ways to do that is to have a compelling story. Again, I'll go back to Donald Miller's book, Creating a Or whatever it was, story something, starting a story brand or something with StoryBrand. I've lost the name of it.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, but he's, he's well known. StoryBrand, you can get certified in StoryBrand.

Jason Barnaby
Yes,

Tony Martignetti
StoryBrand work. And I forgot the name, Donald Miller, but now I've heard it. He's, he's a, he's a big guy in storytelling.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah. Well, and he— I found out when I got his book, he had been— I don't remember what movies that he did, but he was a screenwriter for a time. in Hollywood. So he learned

Tony Martignetti
the craft

Jason Barnaby
of story. Yeah, the craft of storytelling. And one of the things that I see, and you can see this all the time if you go to websites. So, um, for the nonprofit folks that are listening, I would challenge you to go take a look at your website and see which of these is most prevalent. Most of us, when we sell or we are trying to get our nonprofit, our company, our product, our idea out there, we come to the market as the hero. Look how great we are. Look at all the things we've done. If you would just let us help you, all of your problems will go away. Well, that's great in some respects, but people like to be part of a story. And his whole point is, when you look at any great stories, one of my favorites because I grew up on it is Star Wars. Is there's, there's a hero, but the hero has a guide. So like in Star Wars, Yoda was Luke's guide. Yoda didn't go grab the lightsaber and go out and fight. He taught Luke how to do that. He came alongside him and said, these are the things that you are going to do. These are the things that are important. This is the way that You are going to be able to reach your goal. Not Yoda saying, you go out and do this because this is my agenda, and when you do that, then you're going to be successful. Mm-hmm. It's that partnering with people and being somebody who comes in next to them. So, I think one of the most important things, first of all, is defining how do you partner? How do you partner with the community that you serve? How do you partner with the board? How do you partner with donors? Because there are going to be people who don't ever want to give any of their time. They just want to write a check. Well, what does that check go to? Do you have a story that says when you give this much money— and we see this all the time, late-night television— for $3 a day you can feed, you know, a kid, for $5 a month you can help build a well in, you know, some third-world country. And it's— it, it takes that thing and makes it very practical. And so how do nonprofits then Come alongside the communities, come alongside the volunteers to say, you know, if I'm a volunteer and I really want to be on a board, what does that look like when I come? Can you tell me a story about what it looks like to be on your board? Some kind of a decision that you all as a board have made in the past that has had X, Y, or Z result. And so many cannot. Well, we sort of, you know, do this food bank and we kind of do this clothing thing, or we, you know, we do— it needs to be— I need to be able to see myself in that story because if I can see myself in that story, I am much quicker and much more willing to give of my time, my talents, and my treasures. And if I can't, then I'm going to go find somebody who can.

Tony Martignetti
So bringing folks in as a partner.

Jason Barnaby
Bringing folks in as a partner. And then also, just again, it's really knowing here's the problem, here's how we partner with people to solve that problem. As a result of us together solving that problem, here is the end result. The community is better off. Kids have meals, there's an afterschool program, whatever it happens to be. And that's— I mean, if you notice that it was like boom, boom, boom. It's 3 very, very simple things. But can I— you know, I'm a college kid who doesn't have much money, but I'm looking for a place to make a difference. So right there, are you a college kid who has more time than money and wants to make a difference? We would love to have you for 2 hours a week because in 2 hours a week, here are the things that you can help us with to partner in our community. And here's what those 2 hours a week do. That's way more compelling than, hey, you want to come and volunteer at our nonprofit? Well, what do we do? Well, there's all kinds of things you can do. Just come and find out. That's not intriguing. That's not compelling. But the fact that I can give 2 hours of my life and I might be able to help a kid learn how to read by the end of the year, That's compelling. And it's the same thing, but it's a different way of approaching it. And I think oftentimes it, to your point, when the board is not all speaking the same way, when the people on the staff are not speaking the same way and they're going out into the community, then different people in the community are getting different stories. Yeah. And that's confusing. You want to—

Tony Martignetti
Talk about consistency, consistent messaging.

Jason Barnaby
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Messaging around partnership, about, about instead of it being, you know, we do this and we together, we do this, or even you, you do this, you save lives when you support us, you're, you're saving lives through us, you're the lifesaver. You save lives.

Jason Barnaby
And absolutely. And if, if you are in fact making me the hero, you just did a really good job of that, saying you're, you're the person that saves lives. Who, who doesn't want to go, wow, I saved lives? That's a pretty cool thing that I could— that I've, that I've done. I want to, I want to be associated with that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's incredibly powerful. And, you know, I've seen nonprofits who have great marketing The marketing message, the, you know, the, the, the commercials that are on television, the print ads that go out, the postcards, the newsletters, all that stuff. Great. Does your board and does your staff also speak the same way, using the same language, the lingo, the story, all of that? It's really important, and I think a lot of people miss that boat. And that's a couple of, that's a couple of, of board meetings to go over that, to get that

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. 26NTC, the 2026 Nonprofit Technology Conference. We were there with a podcast studio last week in Detroit, Michigan. Detroit, Michigan actually overlooks Canada. If you, you look across the Detroit River, And a little-known fact, that part of Canada, which I'm pretty sure the town is Windsor, Canada, and that area, that is actually south of Detroit. So there is a part of Canada that is below, south of the United States. I'll bet most people don't know that, but you do now. And I just learned it last week. Not, not like I've known it for a lifetime and I just got to enjoy it. I just, uh, I looked across and I used my compass and then and There we are. That's south. So lots of interviews, captured exactly 20 interviews. I'm going to pair these up. So it'll be coming over 10 shows. But, you know, we break them up. I don't do 10 shows straight in a row. But some, you know, just smart folks helping us use technology more wisely in, you know, in doing our jobs, doing our work. Some, some of this, some sample topics. So don't worry, I'm not going to read 20 topics. 5 tips for ethically using artificial intelligence. There are a bunch on AI. Donor retention. Biases in prospect identification. Jason Shim comes back with Apps, Tools, and Tactics. He's a perennial every year. Of course, we got Amy Sample Ward, the CEO of N10, talking to her. Creating Your Nonprofit's AI Acceptable Use Policy, Guide to Planning and Executing a Successful Giving Day, Disaster Recovery and Incident Response, Unlocking the Power of Donor-Advised Funds, Cybersecurity, Dashboards, Project Management Tools. Oh, and this was a fun one. Confessions of Nonprofit Social Media Managers. So there's a sample. Lots of these— well, not lots of them, you'll be hearing all of them, not just lots, all, all coming in the next couple of months right here on your favorite hebdomadal podcast, Nonprofit Radio. I should give a shout out to the team at N10. That hosted us. They set aside a great space for the studio. We had plenty of room. It was a high-traffic area, so we get a lot of visibility. My thanks to Amy Sample Ward and all the folks at N10. They— I'm grateful. You know, they take good care of us. I'm grateful for the partnership that we have together. So thank you, N10. And that is Tony's Take Two. Kate,

Kate Martignetti
it sounds like you've got a good lineup of future shows.

Tony Martignetti
You're right, we do. Are you surprised by that?

Kate Martignetti
No, I'm feeling excited.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, it's not like you were expecting crummy shows coming, right?

Kate Martignetti
No, not for a second-rate, uh, podcaster. Number, number, top, top 5, top 10.

Tony Martignetti
Uh, top 10 by, uh, million podcasts. Yes, top 10.

Kate Martignetti
Yeah, not in the top 10. We got like the best.

Tony Martignetti
We do, we do. And now it's even better. They're even better because they're from the Nonprofit Technology Conference. It's hard to improve, but we're managing.

Kate Martignetti
We've got beaucoup buttloads more time. Here's the rest of Sell Your Nonprofit with Jason Barnaby.

Tony Martignetti
What else? Advice for promoting, bringing people to us?

Jason Barnaby
Well, I, I think one that I've seen, and I'm sure you've, you've heard this, um, you know, a nonprofit comes into the world because a founder has a vision for a thing. And whatever that thing is, service, product, whatever, and they build this kingdom around them with these folks, but they are the only person that ever holds on to the vision and it can't, it doesn't get passed down much. Or they believe, and I see this all the time in sales as well, and just business in general, they did, they feel like if they let somebody else do X, then it's not going to be done the way that they would do it. It's not going to be done as well as they would do it. Therefore, I'm not going to let you do it. So I'm going to be an overworked, burned-out founder.

Tony Martignetti
No.

Jason Barnaby
And it's not sustainable. And so part of this too is if you as a founder are a great visionary, fantastic. Go be that visionary. Speak at conferences. Let your board go out and find the volunteers. Let your board go out and find your staff. You don't need to be doing that. You need to be out casting the vision and putting it out there. And even more, do you have somebody that's on your bench? I'm putting that in air quotes, that if something, you know, choose your, choose your story, if you get hit by the bus or if you win the lottery. But if, you know, as the, as the founder, if suddenly one day you're done, Can somebody come in and step in and keep that vision going? And a lot of times, because the founder is afraid to give up any of that or share that, and I've seen this with a lot of nonprofits, when that founder is gone, that service, that thing, it may hang on for a couple of months, but a lot of times it just dies on the vine.

Tony Martignetti
Hmm.

Jason Barnaby
Because that hasn't been passed down, that, that hasn't been That, that story, that, that history, that importance of the partnership isn't known to the rest of the folks. And it's hard for them to step into that, especially if the founder's holding on to it like this with both hands all the time.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, you got it. You got to recognize your own boundaries, what your strengths are, excel in those, maybe, you know, and as well broaden to other areas. But, but not like Go learn HTML so you can program, you know, so you can code your code, the code, the— I'm making— Sliders on your website. No, that—

Jason Barnaby
no.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Barnaby
And I'm making a terrible face because I remember I was asked to— I was asked to do HTML once, and it was a— I was on a team of 4 people and it was a disaster. I was terrible at it. I'm a— you give me this, like, I will go speak anything. I'll go sell it, I'll go talk it, I'll go I'll go to conferences, but don't ask me to like make the sausage. Like, no, it's— I'm not good at it. And thankfully, my boss gave that assignment to me once and was like, yeah, we're not doing that again. You were not successful. It made the rest of the team unsuccessful. And by the way, all the time that you spent on that was still way worse than Anybody on our team could have done like that. So it was a big waste of time in a couple of different ways.

Tony Martignetti
On the other hand, if you are a visionary type and you love to speak about the work, then going outside your comfort zone might mean maybe starting a podcast, perhaps.

Jason Barnaby
Exactly. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Maybe doing more writing, maybe expanding from speaking to blog posting or writing op-eds or writing Journal article, you know, whatever. Though that, I mean, an example of productive growth outside your comfort area versus learning HTML or C++, you know, so you can code the website. All right, let's talk a little about Jason because you got forced out of your comfort zone.

Jason Barnaby
I did.

Tony Martignetti
2018, you say you were given the gift of severance.

Jason Barnaby
I did.

Tony Martignetti
After 10 years. And so tell, tell, tell that, that growth story.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah. So, so it's, it's interesting. The catalyst to that was about 2 years before I had gone to— with, with many of my coworkers, we had gone to a— it was a global— it was called the Global Leadership Summit. I don't think they do it anymore. But the time that we did it, there were— I think they had 75 or 80 remote locations around the world. And it was a 3-day conference. It was all virtual. This was pre-COVID, all virtual unless you were like in Chicago where they were doing it. And all kinds of like Melinda Gates was a speaker. One of the Coveys was a speaker. Patrick Lencioni was one of the speakers. I mean, it was a pretty— it was a pretty solid cast of characters that were speaking. And one of the speakers asked a question. He said, if you are a leader, whose permission are you waiting for to lead? And that just hit me between the eyes. And in fact, there was a good friend of mine sitting behind me at the conference who poked me in the back when he said that, as if to say, hey, Jason, what are you doing?

Tony Martignetti
Hmm.

Jason Barnaby
And so that was about— that place was where I was, was about 45 minutes from my house. I drove home and I'm like, all right. So, I believe do what you can with what you have where you are. And I was like, so here I am in this corporate job. I've been here for 8 years. When is the last time that I was inspired at work? And so, as I drove home, I was trying to think about that. I went back in my memory about 3 years and I could not think of a time in the last 3 years that I had been inspired at work. And I'm a guy who looks for it. Yeah. Right? So, 3 years looking for it, didn't find it. I'm like, what about these poor saps that I work with who don't look for it, who've worked here for 20 years? I can't imagine if they've ever been inspired at work. So, I started this little group. It started with an email to 6 people. At that time, there were 3 divisions, 2 people in each division. I wanted it to be cross-divisional. And I wrote the email right when I came home that night. And the email was basically, hey, I just went to this conference. I'm inspired. Wondering when the last time was you were inspired at work. I'm going to start this thing where we're going to get together once a month over lunch. We're going to watch a TED Talk. We're going to have a conversation, and then we're going to go see if we can change the culture. And we called it Tribe Vibe based on this idea that your vibe attracts your tribe. So what you put out in the world brings your people to you.

Tony Martignetti
And with the, with the goal of changing the culture in this company. Correct. Okay. Yeah, like your tribe vibe. Yeah,

Jason Barnaby
that group grew from 6 to 300 people in 9 months, all word of mouth. And, um, I was told, uh, very long story short, but basically I was told— I, I was brought into a meeting with the, um, legal counsel of the company along with my boss and another VP, and they said, we have some, uh, we have some exposure risk here. By the way, this is one of the companies still today that has a pension plan for people on top of your 401. Okay, so it's a, it's a great— people, you know, you want to stay for as long as you can. And they said, well, we, we have some exposure. And I said, what do you mean? And they said, well, we, um, um, you know, you're using company email, company space. We're afraid that people might organize. And I was like, You mean like a union? And they go, yeah. And I laughed. I literally, Tony, I was like, and then I looked at everybody and no, I was the only one smiling or laughing. And they said, basically, you have to shut it down. And what I learned in that situation was a couple things. I had more, and I can say this now after much reflection and some therapy, I had more social and political clout than a couple of the leaders in the company because of this thing that I was doing. And so I was told eventually that I had to shut it down because it was an unsanctioned event and that the things that we were doing— this was pre-2020— they said, this is not in our 2020 vision for what we

Tony Martignetti
want. Inspiration. We can't be inspiring the employees, not on company time.

Jason Barnaby
No, why would you know?

Tony Martignetti
Inspiration. That's a very bad thing for the company to have.

Jason Barnaby
And so what's funny is I knew probably 2 and a half to 3 months before it happened, I knew that my job was going to be eliminated. And I actually knew on the day that it was being eliminated because I got a meeting invite for 8:15 in the morning. I'd never had a meeting at 8:15 in the morning. So I'm like, okay, I know what this is. So what's funny is I—

Tony Martignetti
They want you out before everybody else comes in.

Jason Barnaby
Exactly. Well, what's funny is I knew I was traveling when I got the invite, and I came back the day before, and I just spent that entire day packing up my desk. I had 2 desks, actually, one in HR and one in the business. I packed all my stuff up, and I basically went around. I'd worked there for almost 10 years, and I found people that I really had great relationships with and said, I'm probably going to lose my job tomorrow. I hope to see you. And they're like, what do you mean? And I loved that because that, that doesn't happen, right? You get, you get let out before everybody comes in, somebody else packs your desk up, and then you come in like a sap on a Saturday when nobody's there to pick up your stuff so that, you know, nobody can see you.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Jason Barnaby
Well, I packed all my stuff up the morning of, and I'd already cleaned out my desk, and my boss said, hey, I'm just curious. He said, did you clean out your desk yesterday? And I said, I did. And he said, Why? And I said, well, because I know you don't think this is the case, but I can tell you that whenever these kinds of things happen, everybody in the company knows. You guys are the only ones that think it's a secret. And he said, so you have everything? He said, what about your laptop? I literally had it in my bag. I gave it to him. He said, what about your parking pass? Here it is. What about your company credit card? Here it is. What about your badge? Here you go. And he goes, you don't have anything left on your desk? And I said, nothing. And he said, huh. He said, wow. He said, that's a first. He said, I will probably always remember that. And this is true, Tony. I looked him in the face and I said, well, that's great because the company that I am starting tomorrow as a result of me losing my job, one of our core values is to always be memorable. So, thank you for helping me get it started. And you know what's funny about that too, Tony, is about a year before that happened, My daughter at the time was eight. She came bouncing through the kitchen. We had a trampoline in the backyard. I'm sitting there drinking the last of my afternoon espresso. She comes bouncing through the kitchen, eight years old, looks up at me out of the blue, and she goes, "Daddy, do you like your job?" And I was like, "Oh God! How did how did she know?" So I gave her some you know adult BS answer of like benefits, and you know you don't always like everything that you do, but blah blah blah. Try to keep it short and sweet. And I looked at her and I go, does that make sense, sweetie? And I'll never forget this. She, she goes— she took a big, deep, big, big deep breath. She went— and she looked up at me and she goes, yeah, I guess. And then she goes, I still think you need a new job.

Tony Martignetti
Damn.

Jason Barnaby
And ran out, leaving me with an existential crisis.

Tony Martignetti
8-year-old wisdom.

Jason Barnaby
And a year later, And a year later I was done. So she, she knew. And I will tell you that, that even then I was, I was grateful for the push off the edge because I had been in the comfort zone of the paycheck and the things, and I wasn't going to start unless something like that happened. And that was the catalyst. And talk about getting comfortable being uncomfortable real quick. That's what I did. They did give me severance, which was great, and I used that as a small business loan that I didn't have to pay back. And here we are almost 10 years later. Congratulations.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. It was a gift. It was a gift, severance.

Jason Barnaby
It really was. It really was. Because I don't know how much longer I would've

Tony Martignetti
toiled.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah, I could say toiled in misery because I was pretty miserable by the end. Before I would have said enough's enough.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. Let's talk more about the idea of asking others for help. We skirted on a little bit, you know, in the founder scenario, but it doesn't only apply to founders.

Jason Barnaby
Correct.

Tony Martignetti
Recognizing what you know, what you're great at, what you're not, and what you need help with.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Bringing others for that help.

Jason Barnaby
Yeah. And I would say the first step in this is just to know that you can't do everything. And I coach a lot of executives, and I would say 99% of executives that I coach, we eventually get to a conversation where I say— where it just becomes evident that complete perfection is the goal of whatever it is they're doing. And I say, so perfection is the goal, right? And they're like, well, yeah, of course. Um, well, why aren't you asking for help? Well, because they can't do it this way, and they can't do it this way, and they can't do it this way, and I do this, and I do that. And I say, okay, well then here's what I'd like you to do. And if I'm sitting face to face, I will do this. I've done it several times. I'll shove a piece of pad of paper across the desk with a pen, and I say, okay, so if perfection is the goal, and that's where you're trying to get to, and nothing is good enough, Can you just take as long as you want, by the way, make a list of all the people that you know who know everything and never make a mistake? I'll wait till you're done. Yeah. I've never had one person put one name on that list. And the point of that exercise is you have made perfection the goal, and perfection is unattainable. So, the first thing that you have to be willing to do is to say, I can't do it all. I have to ask for help. And if you can get— that's first. Secondly, if you can get over that people are going to do it differently than you, if you can get away from the how it needs to be done and be more focused on the end result, I think that's a lot easier to let go. Hmm. Because so many people are like, but I would do it this way or I would start here. Does it matter if you still get to the— if the product looks the same, does it matter how the sausage was made? I don't think it does. But for some people, that's where they get hung up. And then the next thing is this, and it goes back to the sort of and kind of thing. If you're going to ask for help, and I'm going to give a shout out to a lady named Jenny Robbins who taught me this when I first started my business. She has a core belief, and I have seen this core belief in action, and that core belief is that people genuinely want to help. They genuinely do want to help. And the more simple and easier that we can make it for people to do that, the better our chances are at getting help. So here's what I mean by that. So if you say, picture 2 different types of emails you're sending, you're sending out an email because you need help at an event this weekend. It's your biggest— let's call it a— let's say it's a, it's a golf outing. Okay. You send— you've got, you know, 50 people in your email Contacts that say, hey, anytime you need help, give me a call. I'd love to help. Great. So here's your— here's a time. So you reach out and you say, hey, you know, over time you all have told me that you want to help and now's the time. And so this weekend we're having a golf outing and we would love any help that you could provide. We start at 6:30 in the morning. We're done at 4:30 in the afternoon. And we would love it if you could come help. Well, did you just ask me to go from 6:30 in the morning till 4:30 in the afternoon? Because if so, I'm not giving up 10 hours of my Saturday, likely. Why? Because I like being comfortable, and that's going to make me a little uncomfortable. So I'm not going to do that. So put that next to, if you're on this email, it's because you have said, hit you up when we need help. This Saturday is one of those opportunities. We have a golf outing. It's our biggest moneymaker of the year. We are looking for people to sign up in 2-hour slots to do this, this, this, this. Down below is a form. You click on it, you can put your name and sign up for what you want. I'm going to follow up in 2 more days if I don't hear from you. We'd love to have your help. That's a very different ask for help, and you've made it very easy for me to sign up. Versus, you know, send me back an email and we'll find a time and we'll go. Nobody wants to do that. Make it super simple, make it super easy. And the same with the board. You know, people are like— I didn't know this when I, when I got on boards. Um, somebody told me this who had a lot more board experience than I did. They said, well, you know, when you, when you recruit a board, you want that board to give you money. It's kind of understood that the board members are going to give you money. And I was like, that's news to me.

Tony Martignetti
Understood? Well, there's a problem. It's just understood.

Jason Barnaby
Right. And so again, for me, when you make an ask for somebody to be on the board, why are you asking them? Hey, you're a genius at strategy. We've struggled with strategy for the last couple years. We have 4 board meetings a year, 1 a quarter, plus a half-day planning thing. I would love it if you would, would come check out a board meeting and see what it's like, get a taste. And then if you would agree, we would love to have you as our strategy person on the board for the, for the coming year, for those 5 meetings. I really think you could help us. So that's the commitment. 2 hours a quarter, a half day at the end of the year. You've just told me exactly what it is. I don't feel uncomfortable asking questions because you've laid it out. But it's totally different than, hey, we need— man, we are really hurting for board members. Do you know anybody who wants to be a board member? Would you like to be a board member? What does that mean? What does that look like? What am I doing? How am I helping? Why are you asking me? Do you just need a body? Yeah. Or is it because I do something well? And by the way, if I do something well, I love to hear that from you, that we're asking you to do this because you do this well. Because we all have egos, most of them like to be stroked. So yeah, that feels good. Thank you for asking. And I would like to go use my talent in that way to help your organization. So being specific and just making it very Easy and very simple for people to say yes. The more clicks, the more barriers, the more challenges you put in place between the ask and the yes, the less likely it's going to be for you to get the yes.

Tony Martignetti
I'll leave it right there. That's Jason Barnaby. Even his water bottle is orange and fire, fire orange. It is Jason Barnaby. He's the Chief Firestarter at firestartersinc.com. And you can connect with Jason on LinkedIn. That's where he and I first met, thankfully. Yeah. Jason, IU, congratulations on the big Indiana University. Is it— was it baseball? Football? No, it was football.

Jason Barnaby
Football.

Tony Martignetti
Football win.

Jason Barnaby
National championship, first ever in in school history.

Tony Martignetti
Exactly. That's pretty big. He just— what he just said. And thank you for sharing wisdom. Absolutely a pleasure. On selling, on bringing people to our cause. That's, that's what we're selling. We're selling our cause.

Jason Barnaby
Absolutely. And it's important. You know, somebody asked me once, they said, if you don't tell the story, who's going to tell it? I think that's a great— it's a great— who's telling your story? To bring the people, because that's you can't do it on your own.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, emotional intelligence for leaders. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you find it at TonyMartinetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show social. Our social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.