Decolonizing Wealth

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd suffer the effects of hypergargalasthesia if you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate with what's going on.

Kate Martignetti
Hey Tony, here's what's going on. Decolonizing Wealth. This first aired in 2018, yet it feels more relevant right now As we witness gross acts of separation and exploitation of non-white people, and the wealth divide has become larger and more consequential. Edgar Villanueva's book, Decolonizing Wealth, takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation's original people. Edgar is a Native American working in philanthropy. This originally aired November 30th, 2018. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
I hope you enjoy your holidays.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Decolonizing Wealth.

Tony Martignetti
It's my great pleasure to welcome to the studio Edgar Villanueva. He's a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in Philanthropy and is a board member of the Andrus Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He's an instructor with the Grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Schott Foundation for Public Education. He's held leadership roles at Kate B. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina. You'll find him at decolonizingwealth.com and @VillanuevaEdgar. Edgar, welcome to the studio.

Edgar Villanueva
Thank you, Tony. Pleasure to be here.

Tony Martignetti
Congratulations on the book.

Edgar Villanueva
Thank you.

Tony Martignetti
Which just came out, what, last month? It was October?

Edgar Villanueva
October 16th.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, all right. And you just had a very nice interview with the New York Times.

Edgar Villanueva
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Congratulations on that. That preps you for Nonprofit Radio.

Edgar Villanueva
Right, right. I'm ready.

Tony Martignetti
All your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment.

Edgar Villanueva
That's right.

Tony Martignetti
So it's all culminated here. I promised listeners footnote 1. Footnote 1 to hypergargalesthesia. Of course, anybody who listens to the show knows that I open with something funny like that, a disease, every single show. But in Edgar's book, he mentions hypergargalesthesia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that the guest unknowingly has provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn't know, but we do that every single show. You didn't know that.

Edgar Villanueva
I didn't know that.

Tony Martignetti
You're not listening to Nonprofit Radio. It's your life. All right. Okay. Decolonizing Wealth. You're a bit of a troublemaker.

Edgar Villanueva
A little bit.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, you're raising some eyebrows.

Edgar Villanueva
Someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven't thought about it that way, but—

Tony Martignetti
All right, that's not all so bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate with it. Almost. I used to call myself the Charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can't use that any longer. 'Cause you talk about colonizer virus and exploitation and division, like these are bad things.

Edgar Villanueva
Yes, they are bad things.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, what is the— what's the colonizer virus? Why do we need to decolonize?

Edgar Villanueva
So many of us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector, You know, have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism or some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good-doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in Not in the best ways, not using the best—

Tony Martignetti
On the backs of a lot of Indigenous and colored people.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, when you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it's steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations now, folks may not even know the origin of their family's wealth, but, you know, when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated, you know, especially I'm from the South, North Carolina, we'll talk about that. There absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that helped contribute

Tony Martignetti
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of Native Americans?

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah. So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization, as we often think about it as something that happened 5 years ago in North Carolina, especially where I'm from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so, So in my community, Native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparents' generation, kids were forcefully removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we're still, we're experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices. But we are a resilient people. And those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today as a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we

Tony Martignetti
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists.

Edgar Villanueva
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Now, you're a member of the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina. That's right. Robeson County, North Carolina, which is not too far from where I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think, of Robeson County. So the Lumbee Tribe, I assume the Lumbee language Lumber River is named for the Lumbees and Lumberton, the town. That's right. All named for Lumbees.

Edgar Villanueva
Okay. Right. So Lumbees were actually named after the, the Lumber River. Um, after—

Tony Martignetti
Oh, the river came first.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, the river came first. And so, um—

Tony Martignetti
Well, certainly the river came first. The name, the name of the river came first. Right, right. The river's been there much longer than anybody. Okay.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah. So we are, um, you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina, um, that, uh, came together to form the Lumbee Tribe. And named ourselves after that river.

Tony Martignetti
And we're gonna come back to Native Americans as the original philanthropists. Okay. But that struck me a lot. I think you say that at the end of the book is where I caught it. We just have like a minute and a half or so before a break. So just, we're introducing this. We got plenty of time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, Exploits us. What's that about?

Edgar Villanueva
So the accumulation of wealth— so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I, I, I say, is, is neutral. But it's the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm. When we value, um, when we, you know, fear and we're motivated by greed, the acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people are what has— that's what has caused the harm in itself. So the case that I'm going to make in this book, that I'm making in this book, is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

Tony Martignetti
You've got 7 succinct steps to that in the second half of your book. Nigani Banerjee, that is your Indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly?

Edgar Villanueva
I think that's correct. I'm a little shabby with my Ojibwe these days.

Tony Martignetti
You don't know your Ojibwe? You're not fluent in Ojibwe? That sounds about right. All right, but that is your Indian name?

Edgar Villanueva
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Leading Bird. Tell the story of how you got that name. We'll come back to— don't— we'll come back to the exploitation and control. Don't worry about that. This is a good story how you got that name.

Edgar Villanueva
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribe in North Carolina, doesn't have a tradition of naming You are whatever your mom calls you. That's your name, right? Edgar. Edgar works. Right. So, but when I was working in North Carolina in Native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone— the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a Native has always been quite complicated. We didn't have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yeah. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, if you're, if you're really lucky when you meet with a medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this, this native health conference. So it was all— I tell the story in the book, is quite hilarious in many ways. But at the end of our session, where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways, because I've, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking, he did offer me a Native name, Nagani Bineshe, which means leading bird. So, I was very honored. And my first thought was, what kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety Bird? Or am I a mighty eagle?

Tony Martignetti
Huge pelicans.

Edgar Villanueva
Right. Birds are vast. He explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. And as I— when I left, I studied these birds and they're—

Tony Martignetti
You're the leading bird.

Edgar Villanueva
I'm the leading bird.

Tony Martignetti
Your name is Leading Bird.

Edgar Villanueva
I'm the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible, but really understands its codependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it's really like an amazing natural national phenomenon, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that's remarkable about the leading bird's type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it's not always the one that's out front. And when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really— I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that's the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life, and I think it's the type of leadership that's really important for the nonprofit sector.

Tony Martignetti
You explain how the birds communicate, which I've always wondered. They're just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and micro movements, I think you say, off each other, but they're not so close that they're going to bump into each other and be injured.

Edgar Villanueva
Right.

Tony Martignetti
But that's how they, and they, I guess they're feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they're that close, but not so close that they're gonna be injured. Right.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, it's very, it's very fascinating. It's like a scientific, uh, you know, a GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that, uh, you don't ever find one that, uh, dies alone. And so, you know, I, I wanna learn and research that a little bit more, but I think when they're— when someone is down or, you know, there's an injury or whatever may happen, they— there's a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our interrelated, you know, being interrelated.

Tony Martignetti
Exactly, our interdependence. Now, this is an indigenous belief that we are all related, and that's what makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro-movements. But how— explain this belief that we are, each one of us, related to all the other.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, so there is a Native belief, all my relations, that means all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual, and we are interdependent. And so it's a very different mindset or worldview from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. We also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of 7 generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now, and that we're relatives, and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and that we are making today are going to impact future generations. So there's an idea that I am someone's ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But I also, in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with Indigenous elders to remember these teachings and to think about how to apply them in my work.

Tony Martignetti
And you encourage us to each— that each one of us takes responsibility for, as you said, we're thriving and suffering together. What I'm referring to is each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, so, you know, I think—

Tony Martignetti
How are we all responsible?

Edgar Villanueva
We're all responsible because we're all affected. I think some folks, when we, you know, when we learn about colonization in schools, it's something that seems pretty normal, right? We think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes.

Tony Martignetti
It's like the natural path of progress. Absolutely. The way it's learned.

Edgar Villanueva
Right. We have holidays, you know, for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so, but the realities are that colonization was something that was terrible, that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we, as a people, have not come to terms with. We actually, we don't tell the truth, we don't face the truth. And so I think we're still dealing with the consequences. And so the dynamics of colonization, which are To divide, to control, to exploit, to separate. Those dynamics, you know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they are still in our bodies as a nation. They show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus, and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector, and especially in philanthropy where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege,

Tony Martignetti
That leads naturally to your point about us/them organizations. Absolutely. Go ahead.

Edgar Villanueva
So, you know, I think philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at where this money came from and how we as a sector don't face the realities of that truth, when you look at— ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net in vulnerable communities. And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage, and spend it, you see a very white dominant kind of mindset happening. Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit— Yeah. Foundations sit on $800 billion of assets. That's a lot of money that has been, uh, sheltered from taxation. That's money that would've gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Private foundations are only required by the IRS to pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you're looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public good, only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors and being invested in communities.

Tony Martignetti
Let's assume it's— I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum. So let's— so 5% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is, but there's $40 billion coming each year, could be more, but let's take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we're trying to preserve this this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we, if we spent in the next 2 years the $800 billion, then we wouldn't have anything left for future, just future years and other generations. We're trying to, you know, we want to be around for in perpetuity, the foundations would say.

Edgar Villanueva
Right, right. And, you know, I think, I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5%, when Congress enacted that 5% rule, it actually began at 6%, I believe, in 1974, and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Right. Are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever, corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break? And so that IRS minimum payout of 5%, that rule was put in place to force foundations to actually begin making grants. Yeah. And so, you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with the 95% that is not leaving the doors, if the If our intention is really to do good in communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested to generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundations.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, you make the point often that often, right, those investments are in industries that are Hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. Exactly. And in fact funding. Um, the, um, there's something else that I was going to ask about the, uh, the way the money is. Um, all right, we'll, we'll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there's, there's a lot that organizations can gain by hiring People of color, indigenous people, what— and very few, you're a rare exception working in doing foundation work. What's the— make explicit those advantages.

Edgar Villanueva
Sure. So you're right, I'm absolutely an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. kind of found each other. Oh my.

Tony Martignetti
And what year was that?

Edgar Villanueva
Uh, this was in 2005.

Tony Martignetti
So not so long ago.

Edgar Villanueva
And we are now, uh, there's about 25 of us now, um, the last time I counted. Um, so yeah, there's, there's, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations, and I think more and more foundations are understanding to bring folks in, uh, to, to foundations that have lived experience.

Tony Martignetti
And not only foundations, but But nonprofits, the NGOs doing the groundwork. Absolutely. The foundations are the funders, uh, and, and of course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We're seeing that emerging. But, but for the nonprofits doing the day-to-day work, right, as well, uh, represent the communities that you're—

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely. It kind of makes sense, right? And, uh, found, you know, it's funny because some foundations actually require that of nonprofits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have, have no type of, uh, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But the point is that for sure that any nonprofit or foundation to have folks that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you're trying to solve, it's going to bring an awareness about the problem in a different way. It's going to create some proximity that I think is going to just inform strategies that make sense. And I can't tell you the number of times I've been in strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made. And I always carry my mother, my family with me in spirit into the room. And I hear these decisions or these conversations and I'm thinking like, oh my God, this would not in any way help my mother or my family that's They're still living in poverty.

Tony Martignetti
Decision makers are disconnected.

Edgar Villanueva
There's such a disconnect.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, I, I thought of what I was going to ask you about, or just comment on the foundation-wise. We do see some foundations saying that they're going to spend down their assets. Uh, I wouldn't say it's needle-moving, but you do hear that from time to time, that there's a foundation that's committed now to spending its its assets down. You know, um, was Paul Allen— was it, uh, not Paul Allen, uh, the Microsoft, uh, I think the Microsoft founder, co-founder who recently died. I think his foundation— Bill Gates. Was it Paul Allen? Yeah. Okay, okay. Um, I was thinking of Steve Allen, the old comic. Okay, that's why I thought, no, it wasn't him, but it was Paul Allen. I think his foundation is one, but there are some. So we do hear some glimmers, uh, but you say in the book a few times, uh, We need to move the needle.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spend down is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There's so much need now. If we actually release the funds, or even if you don't wanna spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. There's a lot of amazing work happening right now that is so under-resourced that if we could support and get behind investing, money in these various movements and these, uh, in communities of color, which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah. That would make a big difference. And so I think, um, you know, I think it's a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about. What is the value of, you know, why, why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is— is that about a family Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels— I can see that as being a very selfish type of way of thinking.

Tony Martignetti
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don't have that. But in your Times— we have to work on that at Talking Alternative. We need video capture and screens and everything. In your interview with David Bornstein in the New York Times, You said, by not investing more in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital, impact investing, and finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, you know, I think that, I think of, you know, people of color, indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when policies fail or systems fail. We hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there's just something so magical about and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient. Like, regardless of, um, you know, um, all of the trauma, the colonization, the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um, and so there's, there's got to be something magical about that resilience. that I would, if I weren't Native, I would be interested to know, like what, when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet, on, you know, really fighting for environmental protections. There's so much wisdom. And, you know, often when foundations roll out new theories of change or changes, RSCs, strategies, or there's a new model or theory, theory of change that comes up, and I'm like, wow, we've been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we would— we can get there faster.

Tony Martignetti
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robeson County?

Edgar Villanueva
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enrolled members in the Lumbee Tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robeson County.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Now I have a North Carolina driver's license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be an enrolled member?

Edgar Villanueva
You know, we, we're very inclusive. We, uh, we, we will take— we'll adopt you as an honorary brother, but, uh, you have to have a little bit more documentation to, to get officially enrolled.

Tony Martignetti
All right, so it's a stretch for an Italian-American with just a North Carolina license plate and, uh, and driver's license. All right, um, you, uh, you talk about, um, you know, I guess— I mean, we're, we're skirting around these things. To make it explicit, the, the power imbalance you know, that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle-aged white guys are doling it out piecemeal. The imbalance, the grant, even the word, the granting.

Edgar Villanueva
Right.

Tony Martignetti
It's like some, I don't know, it's like some holy order has bestowed upon you something that's a gift. When, uh, your, your belief is that, and your thesis in the book is that it's, it's, it's a, it's a right equally held by all.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, you know, I think—

Tony Martignetti
Power and money.

Edgar Villanueva
A lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um, we are talking in the nonprofit sector right now a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power. And we often think about that from a lens of equality. So we are going to have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it's going to actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power or take a back seat.

Tony Martignetti
That's not going to happen. That's highly unlikely, like infinitesimally small unlikely.

Edgar Villanueva
You know, it's a hard thing for people to, uh, to think about. And especially if you have— if you've been privileged for so long, um, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it's like, you know, wow, I, I'm— I have less than I've had. So, um, but, you know, we— I, I want to think about this through an abundance mind frame. There's enough— there's enough resources and enough power to go around. Um, we just have to work together to make sure that we are Privileging those who have not been privileged by that power.

Tony Martignetti
Excellent. I love that you approach it from a position of abundance and not scarcity.

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you very much, Kate. The holidays are here, and I remembered it's the— I'm not waiting till 2026 to say enjoy your holidays and Happy New Year. Not like Thanksgiving, you know, where the Happy Thanksgiving came a week late. Whatever you celebrate, by the time this is published, Hanukkah will have already started. Happy Hanukkah if that's yours. Christmas, Merry Christmas if that's yours. Happy Kwanzaa if you're celebrating that. Boxing Day, happy Boxing Day. Whatever you're celebrating, hope you enjoy that time with loved ones. And friends, and also very important for yourself. Time for yourself. You want to come back refreshed, better focused, right? Looking forward to the new year in a couple of weeks because this is our final show of the year. We'll be back on January fifth. So happy New Year! Everybody celebrates Happy New Year pretty much. I don't know. Some people don't. Well, of course there are other calendars. So if you're, if you're celebrating with the Roman calendar, then Happy New Year. Hope you enjoy the new year. Please be responsible. I don't want to hear about any alcohol or drug-related incidents among the listeners in the new year, please. But have fun. Have fun. Just do it. With a measure of caution, that's all. Enjoy, enjoy. I hope you enjoy the hell out of your holidays. And that is Tony's Take 2. Kate.

Kate Martignetti
See you next year, Uncle Tony.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, you will. Is that the best you could come up with?

Kate Martignetti
That was it. That's as good as it's gonna get.

Tony Martignetti
That's low bar. Oh my God. Happy New Year. I'll say it for both of us. Happy New Year.

Kate Martignetti
We've got beaucoup but loads more time. Here's the rest of Decolonizing Wealth with Edgar Villanueva.

Tony Martignetti
Welcome back. You didn't go far.

Edgar Villanueva
Thanks for having me. Okay. Glad to still be here.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, absolutely. You haven't done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn't happened. I've threatened, but it hasn't happened. So let's, let's start getting, uh, positive.

Edgar Villanueva
Okay.

Tony Martignetti
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is 7 steps to healing. And I thought you came up like 5 short. I mean, we have all known the 12 steps. I mean, if you wanna share power, you're gonna have to step it up with like 12 steps or even 15. You know, you have more than the colonizers. But the 7 steps are, in themselves, they're pretty radical.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, you know, it's funny because I did have some resistance to having 7 steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there's a quick and easy fix. If I just do these 7 things, then we're done with this and we can move on. It

Tony Martignetti
is a prime number, so it's got that advantage. Right, exactly. That's unique. I don't know why, but okay.

Edgar Villanueva
So, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know, a process that we can begin. But there is no linear way or quick way to, to solve all of these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But there are ways to, to, to move forward. And the steps to healing for me were— are—

Tony Martignetti
List them out for us. Just list all 7 and then we'll, we'll talk about them.

Edgar Villanueva
Sure. So they're grieve, apologize, listen, relate, represent, invest, and repair.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Um, so you've been thinking about this for a while. I mean, this, uh, I, I, I, I just did— I admire the, I admire the thinking that goes into this.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, so some of it comes from my, my own personal experience, um, when— and kind of coming to terms and, and with, uh, the sector that I'm working in and the disconnection that I felt as a Native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just reground myself in my values and, um, and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. The other parts of it come from— I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy who were, I think, very forward-thinking people in this space, activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an Indigenous restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector now. This is a method that's used in schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from Indigenous communities where We sit in circle with the offender, with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong, to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

Tony Martignetti
All right, so grieving. You say everybody, I mean, because of our interrelatedness, we all need to grieve, including the people of color and indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we're just Very clear and honest about the history of this country, what has happened, what the idea of white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But what the idea of subscribing to that, the harm and the loss that has caused for people of color, but also white people. And I think that's— it's pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused in communities of color. It's not so clear. Yeah. We don't talk about it very much, the loss that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book of the idea that white people came from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of interacting, in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we're seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That's why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests, they're so popular right now, because everyone wants to kind of remember where they're from and they feel connected to that in some way.

Tony Martignetti
And the thing you talk about too is The orphans. Orphans. You say that, uh, those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers, you, you call us orphans. How's that?

Edgar Villanueva
I call them orphans. Uh, this is a term I borrowed from some research that has been done, uh, on, uh, whiteness. And it is, it's kind of speaking to this idea of loss, again, sort of giving up, uh, the, the culture, that maybe from the home country, from where folks, settlers came from, giving up those ways of being and interacting in community to subscribe to this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there's been a loss of sort of that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity. Because although, you know, I'm not anti-American, let me very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world. I'm very proud to, to be a citizen of this country. Um, but there is something about, um, leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um, you know, and, and, and not, um, that, that makes you feel sort of like an orphan if you're not— you have no connection to where your grandparents were from or the language they spoke or the culture that they have. And I feel that that's a loss for many white communities that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. And if we recognize that loss and that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race.

Tony Martignetti
You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is, is not a real— not real, right? Why, why do you say that? Well, I mean, there's a white supremacist movement, right? But how are you thinking about it that Well,

Edgar Villanueva
well, the idea that, that, uh, you know, a certain group of people, white people, are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was an ideology that was created in order to be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset. Right. That has been, you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and societal norms around that. You know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, or sort of the default for me was whiteness was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act in a certain way that appeared to be more white, then that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy White supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications for how we have adopted that belief.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. All right. And you also encourage nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space. While we're talking about grieve, we just have about a minute before break, and then we'll move on with the 7 steps. But what's a grieving space in an office?

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah. These steps are personal, but it can be applied in an organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we're supporting communities, we need to have spaces in our work life to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion, to be human about it. Yeah. And so I share some research in the book and some anecdotes folks who have done that. And the research shows that it actually leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we stop the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events that are happening in our communities.

Tony Martignetti
The book is Decolonizing Wealth. Just get the book, 'cause we can only scratch the surface of it here in an hour, but decolonizingwealth.com, that's where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, to acknowledge, you know, everything doesn't go well all the time. It's impossible. No organization succeeds 100%, nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it, and, and move on, rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody's afraid to talk about or something. You know, it's— how, how oppressive is that?

Edgar Villanueva
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy, especially because we We're sort of carrying around these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that, you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as you said.

Tony Martignetti
And that moves to our next step in terms of your next step, apologizing, recognizing, which includes recognizing The source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds, Kate B., is it Kate B. Reynolds Foundation? That's right. I mean, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina, that money was raised on the backs of slaves. I'm not gonna ask you if the Kate B. Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that's an example of what we're talking about in this step, apologizing.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely. No, there was no acknowledgement of that. Chapter 1 of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former estate or plantation of R.J. Reynolds. And so really literally and metaphorically, Yeah. I was working there. But no, there was no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves in building that university. Yeah. And that some of the buildings there are named after former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe move to apology perhaps. Didn't Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That they had, their founders were, Was it Johns Hopkins? Their founders were slave owners.

Edgar Villanueva
I think Georgetown University.

Tony Martignetti
Georgetown. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. Okay. Georgetown. There were priests, right? There were priests, priest founders that were slave owners.

Edgar Villanueva
That's right. I actually know a friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is a Black woman who is a descendant and was called to Georgetown to share about her family's history. And it was a beautiful moment. They sat in community together talking about the history, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there's a big write-up in the paper. And this has been very healing, I think, for the university, but also for my friend Karen, who is now having that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

Tony Martignetti
You talk A good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa, Canada. You got to get the book. I mean, we can't tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know you love stories as much as I do, but there's just not enough time. So just get the damn book. Just go to decolonizingwealth.com for peace's sake. You go right now if you're listening live. Where are you? Poughkeepsie, Schenectady, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to decolonizingwealth.com. Yeah. Okay. Listening. You talk about empathic and generative listening.

Edgar Villanueva
Right. So, you know, often when we move through a process like this, we feel bad, we've apologized. The default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, I'm done with that. I'm going to move forward. And so, but before you move forward and act, you just need to pause to actually listen to To listen and learn. So to, to, uh, for, for nonprofits, you know, I ran a nonprofit, I've worked in philanthropy for 14 years. When I ask nonprofits, what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently, the response is always, I just wish they would listen. Because there's something about having resources, money, privilege, and power. Yeah. When we enter the room, there's a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the airspace and we have an agenda and the nonprofits are going to be responsive to what we want. And that often is the case, but the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen, put aside your own assumptions, and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes. to understand their experience and their history. It's just, it's just going to make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be— we all deserve to be heard. And so that is, um, just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege, is to, um, to, to stop at times to also listen and to let others be heard.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Uh, listening, we talk about We talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors. And, and I know your next, your next step is, is relating versus being transactional. And that's, that's, that's the beginning of a relationship, as you said, you know, listening, genuine hearing, uh, to whether it's donors or potential, potential grantees. Um, there's, there's a lot to be learned.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Which goes back to the, the value of bringing representing the, the communities that you're, that you're serving. Um, okay, so relation. You want us to, uh, you want us to relate. Let me ask you, uh, you, you've, you read, um, How to Win Friends and Influence People. You say dozens of times. Yes. You said dozens. I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You've read one book dozens of times. Uh, what, what, what do you take away, uh, time after reading, uh, Dale Carnegie's book dozens of times?

Edgar Villanueva
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that I, um, I stole from the library of, uh, my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for a frail elderly man, um, and they had this vast library. So I ended up with this little book that, you know—

Tony Martignetti
You stole from an infirm elderly, elderly man?

Edgar Villanueva
I feel terrible about it. A book? It haunts me to this day. So this is a public confession.

Tony Martignetti
You didn't even think to leave like $20 or something on the table?

Edgar Villanueva
I would have it if I had it at the time.

Tony Martignetti
All right, all right.

Edgar Villanueva
Um, so hopefully this is my, my way of giving back. This is my reparations for, for that, that wrong. But, you know, and the one takeaway for me in that book, uh, is, uh, what is really kind of connected to relating and listening, um, is when you're, when you're talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk, people are going to think that you're a great Like, wow, Edgar, that was— that was such a nice time with you. But even if I didn't say much—

Tony Martignetti
You said the name wrong. It's Edgar.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, right. And so, yeah, it's really about listening and letting others feel that they are important because they are. You know, we— I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling heard and connecting with something that they are interested in, it's just gonna really take you much further in building

Tony Martignetti
And stop the transactional thinking. You have an example of building design, like office design, kitchens. You'd love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

Edgar Villanueva
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of the colonizing virus, it infects every aspect of our communities. So yes, even the way buildings are designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in with all the marble and granite, hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through 5 levels of security to get in, as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right. And so we just, through even how we design our offices And, you know, the way that they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

Tony Martignetti
In terms of designing organizations, more egalitarian you'd like to see?

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely. So one of the steps in the book is represent. And when you look at the demographics of the nonprofit sector, and especially in foundations, that part of the sector, we still have a long ways to go with diversity. Particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions, folks who really hold power in organizations. So one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their board should reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what, you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. Yeah. But this isn't— this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this of their nonprofits that they're funding. And many organizations that receive government funding, federal funding, have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits.

Tony Martignetti
Again, be representative.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, that's a, that's a stretch. 51%.

Edgar Villanueva
It's a stretch. It's a stretch, but, you know, the conversation has been zero about it, so I figure, you know, if we put something, a bold vision out there to help us imagine what's possible, maybe we'll get a little bit further down the road.

Tony Martignetti
And there are some examples. You cite the Novo Foundation in the book. They have a women's building that they're repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into a women's building, and the decisions are being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

Edgar Villanueva
Absolutely. There's some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of the Novo Foundation, wrote the foreword to my book. And they are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work and it shows up in how they give. Yeah. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation's agenda might be.

Tony Martignetti
Is it Novo that funds for 5 years or 7 years? They do. Is it guaranteed? You cite this in the book. No matter how much trouble you're having in year 1, 2, 3, you're going to be funded for 5 or 7 years for their initial commitment.

Edgar Villanueva
Right, right. And that type of long-term commitment is something that is the best type of funding. Folks can be— you can focus on building a relationship versus, oh, I've got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that pressure of thinking about where am I going to— how am I going to pay these salaries next year? Really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they're doing in communities.

Tony Martignetti
And planning and can plan instead of it being one, only one or 2 years. So we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing investing.

Edgar Villanueva
So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for For the public good, right? And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity, that is really moving the needle on issues if we're supporting with the 5% in our right hand, really good work, mission-related work, but in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resources in industries and causes that that are extractive, that are really canceling out the positive of our resources. So there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used in support of their mission.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, and again, other examples in the book. And we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, actually. So talk about your final step, which is—

Edgar Villanueva
The final step is repair. All of us who are philanthropists or givers, and as we're getting close to the end of this year, we are all philanthropists supporting nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization in this country? And so think about looking at your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership. So reach across and support folks who may not look like you. Invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along these lines of thinking or exercising these types of values.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, so I'll give you your last 30 seconds in the way that The way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by what you talk about your mom.

Edgar Villanueva
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropists are folks who are giving the most highest percentage of their incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book who was, you know, is actually very low income, but yet she, gave, um, to our community and, and had it ran a ministry out of our church to support children.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, the bus ministry.

Edgar Villanueva
The bus ministry.

Tony Martignetti
You just gotta, you gotta get the book. You gotta read about the bus ministry.

Edgar Villanueva
The bus ministry. Okay. And so it's that giving of time, treasure, and talent, not just resources. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are, um, you know, through love is, uh, we're all philanthropists.

Tony Martignetti
Get the book. Go to decolonizingwealth.com. Edgar Villanueva, thank you so much.

Edgar Villanueva
Thank you for having me on, Tony.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, there's no show, but in 2 weeks, we'll return with Amy Sample Ward and Gene Takagi sharing their 2026 outlooks. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, find it at tonymartignetti.com. Happy New Year again!

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show's social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great.