Easy Fundraising & Friendmaking for Board Members

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host, and I'm the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd be stricken with scorbutic gingivitis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate to introduce it.

Kate Martignetti
Hey, Tony, here's the intro. Easy Fundraising and Friend-Making for Board Members. That's Gail Perry's new book, working to overcome the bad reputation foisted on fundraising by many board members. She's clear on the 4 fundraising roles your members can play, and only one means asking for gifts. She also emphasizes the importance of solid stewardship and how easy it can be done, along with how your board and staff can best divide the fundraising work. Gail is the founder of Gail Perry Group. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Saying thanks to the people who don't hear it much.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Easy Fundraising and Friend Making for Board Members.

Tony Martignetti
It's a genuine pleasure to welcome back Gail Perry. Gail is founder of the Gail Perry Group, a national philanthropic consulting firm. She spent over 30 years teaching board members and nonprofit leaders How to raise money without the fear and awkwardness most people associate with fundraising. She's the author of the brand new book, Easy Fundraising and Friend Making for Board Members. And her core idea is a simple one: make friends first, ask later. Gail Perry, welcome back after many years to Nonprofit Radio. It's great to see you. Hello.

Gail Perry
Oh, Tony, great to be here too. Thank you so much.

Tony Martignetti
My pleasure. Congratulations on the brand new book.

Gail Perry
Oh, wow. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
I know what goes into it. So you've been working very, very hard. I know. Congratulations.

Gail Perry
Yeah, thank you. It launched yesterday. So hooray.

Tony Martignetti
Absolutely outstanding. Let's go into it. So the title distinguishes between Fundraising and friend-making. I think that's pretty clear, but you're the author. Why don't you distinguish between fundraising and friend-making, please?

Gail Perry
Well, here's the thing. Most board members think that fundraising equals one activity, asking for money. And so if the tagline and the motto is make friends first, ask later, which is of course relational fundraising, we get board members to back off of thinking about the ask all the time and instead focus on the donor relationship. And there are many, many ways board members can support fundraising without directly having to ask. So it's, it's an interesting adventure because I've been working with board members on these topics for, you know, over maybe 15 years.

Tony Martignetti
Well, your first book, your first book was 20 years ago, right? Fired Up. I had that maybe. I don't know if that was the last time. Well, you were on to talk about your book, but it wasn't 20 years ago because I didn't have the podcast 20 years ago, but your first book was Fired Up Fundraising. You've been— you're focused— your newsletter is Fired Up Fundraising. You are focused on board member fundraising.

Gail Perry
Yeah, well, the company, we, you know, I'm a major gifts expert and have a lot of expertise in all the fundraising areas. But my sweet spot, my fun stuff, is helping board members who are well-meaning community volunteers. You know, they really want to help, but they're afraid of the ask. They think fundraising is asking and they throw up their hands. But I'll tell you, Tony, I was writing this book and all my friends serve on boards, you know, and they're all saying, oh, I need this book. I need this book now. When can I get it? So people— there's a need out there for something written directly for board members. There's a lot of stuff written for nonprofit staff and for leaders. My first book was all about the staff and the leaders, but this is just regular old board members. Very simple. This is how you can help.

Tony Martignetti
Let's emphasize the simplicity. You're— because your core message is make friends first, ask later. So we have plenty of time together. We're going to go into details, but give us an overview of make friends first, ask later.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Love that.

Gail Perry
Yeah, thank you. Well, the whole idea, you know, we have transactional fundraising, which is all about the money, and we have relationship fundraising, which is all about a relationship with the donor. And if we are all about the money with, with donors, they— it's not a very powerful ask, and it sort of belittles the activity, and it doesn't make the donor feel very good either. But if you have a relational approach, a donor-centered approach, for one way to look at it, is that the— you're, you're all about the whole person. Tell me why you're interested in the botanical garden. I didn't know you were interested. You know, would you like to see a tour? Tell me what most interests you over here and I'll help you learn more. So you get to know, you let the whole person, the whole donor, the heart, the mind, and the body come first before you ask them, would you like to know how you can help? We can't be all about the money. We shoot ourselves in the foot when we're all about the money. People don't like that.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. And the person, their family, Tell me about your career. Oh, you're retired? What did you retire from? Yeah, so many, you know, there's so many opportunities to get to know folks and build that relationship. And that's what you're focused on, relational versus transactional.

Gail Perry
Yeah. And, you know, it's a great insight for board members to have their community volunteers. They come in, they may have a sales background, but some of them may have been trained in what they call consultative selling. which is you act as a consultant to your potential client and help them think through what they need. That's real, and that's a more sophisticated approach. I was trained by Xerox in that a long time ago. And that's really the same approach we take in this book. But I also want to emphasize, Tony, this slower approach to the ask. I want to slow down. When I started my career at Duke University and we had this month, we had the saying that the more times you are in front of a donor before the ask, the bigger the gift. Hmm. And I'll share when I have in my workshop for board members, I share that and they go, oh, wow, makes sense, makes sense. So they understand it's not intuitive because you think fundraising is asking. But when they back off and look at the process, and, you know, sometimes I tell them, remember when you were in junior high and you wanted to invite a girl to the prom, or you had a crush on somebody and you wanted to see if they would walk to the store with you, you know?

Tony Martignetti
Oh, God, this is going to trigger me. I was terrible with girls. Please. All right, go ahead. Tell the story. I'll calm myself.

Gail Perry
And so, yeah, we all remember middle school. It's like, oh my God. But the thing is, you might do a drive-by of their house. You might understand their habits. What is their schedule of walking to the store? And then you might use an intermediary to gently find out if they might like you or not. You know, so I mean, people, people really love that metaphor because they, they all can see themselves there tiptoeing up. You don't just like walk up to this girl who barely knows you and blurt out the ask, or the, or the guy. You take it slow. So it really is, once you understand, it's very intuitive.

Tony Martignetti
All right, I don't feel triggered, but driving by the house and sitting next to them on the school bus, that's kind of what comes to mind.

Gail Perry
Oh yeah, the drive-by man is a big deal.

Tony Martignetti
Right. So this all leads to why there is such a a negative feeling about fundraising by board members because they, they think it is that it's that one, it's that one activity. I gotta ask, and I'm gonna have to ask my friends, and then they're gonna ask me. And so what's the point? We're all giving to the same. Why don't I just give, why don't I just give myself to the organization? Because they're gonna ask me to give to their organization. Yeah. You know, that's, this is how we get that, that negative perception By board members because it's a basic misunderstanding.

Gail Perry
Yeah, it is because that's the transactional ask. It's all about the money. It's not going to help you create a donor that feels devoted to your cause, that feels like a stakeholder, that feels like they are one with you in supporting your mission. They are a support. It's the difference between will you make a gift, will you be a supporter? And so we, you know, in fundraising these days, we're talking a lot about donor identity. And I identify myself as a supporter of WUNC Radio. I am a supporter of my favorite food bank, 3 different food banks, you know, my husband and I are. So, so when you get to the— when you help people personally identify with the cause, they will stick with you and they will give more. And that's the essence of friend-making, Tony. That's what friend-making is all about. It's being all about the whole person. Let's make friends. Yeah. Let's bring people into the organization and help them discover what really turns them on. And I will say, you know, people are smart and they all have strong interests. And not everybody wants to be interested, or not everybody is actually interested in your cause. But the people who are in your network would love to learn more. You know, I was at a neighborhood party recently. I serve on the University of North Carolina Botanical Garden board. And of course, I chair the development committee, you know, and the gala. But the— we do plant— we do research. And we're a land trust. We do all sorts of kind of wonderful things in the ecology and conservation area. And so there I was at this neighborhood party, and I mentioned the garden. This lady says, oh, the Botanical Garden! Oh, are you on the board? You know, she expressed strong interest. And so, and so I managed to blather a little bit. Yeah, you know, the garden, we, we're, um, we're focusing on plant conservation for the Southeast, and it's just so important in this, um, warming planet right now, the ecology and conservation. She said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And so my next step is to invite her over.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, people have— you're right, of course, people have passions. And part of what we're exploring is, you know, how passionate are you about our cause?

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And, and what, you know, how can we bring you closer to it if you are passionate enough? I know, I, you know, you and I are both in North Carolina, of course. You're in, you're in Chapel Hill?

Gail Perry
Chapel Hill. I got my baby blue sweater on.

Tony Martignetti
Right. You support WUNC Public Radio. I am in Emerald Isle on the coast. I support PRE, Public Radio East, in, uh, out of New Bern.

Gail Perry
I listen to that one too sometimes.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Oh, good. Okay.

Gail Perry
I'm from the eastern part of the state.

Tony Martignetti
You're from North Carolina originally?

Gail Perry
Yeah, from the coast. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Where, where on the coast?

Gail Perry
Um, Bertie County near Edenton.

Tony Martignetti
Edenton. Where's, where's that in relation to Wilmington? Or

Gail Perry
it's north. It's further north than the coast. It's the inland. You know, we have the Outer Banks and the Inner Banks. Edenton was the former colonial capital of North Carolina, and it it's on the mouth of the Albemarle Sound.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Oh, so that's even north of where I am in Emerald Isle.

Gail Perry
Oh yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, that's that's that's further north on the coast.

Gail Perry
Going toward Tidewater, Virginia.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. Okay. Right, right. Very far north. Yeah.

Gail Perry
I have a Tidewater accent.

Tony Martignetti
You're well okay. Well, you have a North Carolina accent. You're you're you're born and raised in North Carolina. I've only been here ten.

Gail Perry
Well, welcome. We claim you as a Tar Heel.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, thank you. I— well, let's not get carried away as Tar Heels. But I know you're UNC. I might be more NC State, but that's okay. So, all right, so you've got 4 roles. You've got 4 roles for board members as fundraisers: as ambassador, influencer, occasional asker— I like that, occasional asker— and steward. Yeah, let's talk through, please. Could you Let's start acquainting folks with what's an ambassador's role.

Gail Perry
Well, the ambassadors of the board do 2 things. They spread the word wherever they go, which means they learn their talking points and how to talk to donors. And they also invite people in. They're the hosts. You know, they might host tours, they might host coffees or porch parties. They, they just spread good cheer and invite people to get to know more about the The organization. So they deal with groups of people, and the influencers deal one-on-one. They, they can work privately behind the scenes with specific donors, funders, corporations, maybe government officials, because they have a particular connection. And they may not want to be in front of this funder, but they can advise you in a, in a, in an approach to This particular funding source that is appropriately timed, that understands the sensitivities of the situation and who the— and who may influence this person. There may be gatekeepers. There may be— I mean, you know, it's a lot of nuance when it comes to approaching and developing a relationship with a significant potential donor.

Tony Martignetti
Right. So, okay, so we have the ambassador, we have the influencer. How do we— before we carry on with the other 2, How do we suss out who's best in, in, in which of these roles and who's gonna— because we want our board members to be comfortable. That's—

Gail Perry
yeah, and sometimes board members can play 2 roles.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, so how do we, how do we figure out what, what, where, where they'd be best suited?

Gail Perry
Uh, well, the rule of thumb is you meet privately with each board member and just chat with them about their interests and who they know. They're not going to reveal who they know in a large meeting. But they will probably in a private conversation with you and share a lot of very helpful information. You know, I have a girlfriend who's an heiress, and she, you know, she— we like to do things together, but I don't want to like approach her. I could approach her and say, would you be interested in learning more about the botanical garden? Or I can do that. I can ask her if she's interested or not. But I'm not going to directly approach. I can coach other people. You know, I can easily coach other people.

Tony Martignetti
You have a friend who's an heiress? Wow. I don't know any heiresses.

Gail Perry
Well,

Tony Martignetti
you know, I don't know heirs or heiresses.

Gail Perry
She lucked up. What can I say? She lucked up.

Tony Martignetti
She lucked up. She lucked up.

Gail Perry
Yes, a Southern phrase.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I don't know. Lucked out. I would say lucked— she lucked out. You say lucked up?

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
All right. I've heard married up. But I haven't heard lucked up. Married up is more of a commitment than luck up.

Gail Perry
You better watch it. I have a lot of Southern colloquial phrases.

Tony Martignetti
Well, I'm going to call them out because everybody is not from the South. So I need to make sure that everybody understands what we're— okay.

Gail Perry
Hey, Tony, one time, one time, you know, I've done a lot of board workshops in my career and the Actuarial Society of North Carolina, I mean, of the US

Tony Martignetti
Actuarial Society. Yeah. Yeah.

Gail Perry
And hired me and brought me in for a day-long workshop. They, the board members really wanted to know how to raise money. They were very motivated. And so here I am in the Midwest talking to these very people who are very precise, you know, actuaries. And I'm using, I'm using y'all, okay? Because I'm going to be myself, right? And there was one of the guys who did a chart of how many times I said y'all.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, that's harsh.

Gail Perry
3 times during the course of the day.

Tony Martignetti
He was keeping, he was keeping little hash marks? Yes. All right. I'm not that harsh. I'm not. Well, he's an actuary. He's a counter.

Gail Perry
Oh, it was funny. I just thought it was hilarious.

Tony Martignetti
He's a numerical, he's a numbers person. All right. Hash mark. All right. I'm not, I don't have any hash marks. I'm not keeping track.

Gail Perry
Let me go, let me go back to finding out who should be an ambassador versus an influencer. We like to know, um, um, we like to meet. Ideally, you meet with people one-on-one and you, and you see if you can

Tony Martignetti
do that at least annually, right? You meet each board member at least annually for their, for a conversation.

Gail Perry
Yeah, but some organizations don't want the development directors or fundraising people talking to their board. You know, all fundraising, they're all different. So hopefully you can meet with board members and chat with them about what, how they're interested in supporting fundraising.

Tony Martignetti
Or this, this annual meeting, maybe with the CEO. This may be a CEO board member meeting.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Okay.

Gail Perry
Yeah, yeah. Um, so, um, my dog is barking in the background. I hope it's— can you hear it?

Tony Martignetti
I love animals. No, no, it's—

Gail Perry
My husband's gone, so the dog is rapping away over there. Um, but, um, so, so, um, sometimes also when I'm doing a board workshop, I will, uh, I'll describe these roles and we'll talk about them all. And I'll put the board member— I like to do small group conversations on a topic, like there are 5 people to a table, 5 board members to a table, and I force them to talk about some of these fundraising topics. It's really powerful, you know, and I'll say, well, can y'all, can each table discuss these 2 roles and see how it feels to you to take on one of these roles? And so people talk to each other. Well, you know, I think maybe I could do this. I have found doing all these workshops I've done over the years, Tony, is that especially with board member volunteers, that the more I can get them to talk, the more they take ownership of and the more insights they develop and it lands. It lands so much differently. You know, you can't just lecture to people. Adults will turn you off.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Gail Perry
So getting them to think and have discussions is very powerful.

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take Two.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. I'm thinking about saying thanks to people who don't hear thanks very much. I've been traveling a lot recently, both for client work and also for my book, and there's a good bit more travel coming up the rest of this year. And so when you're on the go, you know, it's easy to forget I think simple courtesies. So I'm trying to be more conscious of saying thanks, showing gratitude in very ordinary situations to people who don't hear thanks very much, like bathroom attendants in airports. I mean, everybody's just in and out of the bathroom, right? You either got to your destination and you got to get in your Uber, you got to get to a meeting. Or you're connecting and you got to get to your flight, or you're just you're arriving at the airport and you got to get to your flight. Nobody nobody thinks these folks, but when the bathroom is great, when the bathroom is clean, we're grateful, right? And when it's not, we're disappointed and upset. So I think just thanks for those folks. I'm also thinking about. People who prepare the breakfast at hotels. I stay at a lot of Marriotts, actually. I stay only at Marriotts. And, you know, breakfast is included. So yeah, of course, you're entitled to the breakfast. But I like to poke my head in the kitchen and thank the folks who are in there for breakfast, or when they come out to replenish the scrambled eggs, or the cut-up Strawberries. You know, I like to say, I like to say thank you. I'm trying to be more conscious of this. And at home, I've, I've gotten very good at saying thank you to the garbage men. They come 3 times a week. Monday and Friday is garbage and Wednesday is recycling. I live alone, so I'm hardly contributing. But when I do, when I put my garbage can out and they pick it up, I make a point to go out and say thank you. So I don't know, I just, I think we should be more conscious of showing our gratitude in very ordinary routine places. And that's Tony's Take Two. Kate?

Kate Martignetti
I think last time you had said something like this on Tony's Take Two, I brought up crossing guards. This time I'm going to bring up school janitors, teachers, and security. I mean, I'm in the classroom now twice a week, so I'm also trying to like build relationships with the people that I'm now working with. Um, but they, they don't get any recognition.

Tony Martignetti
Janitors, teachers, uh, and security. Security.

Kate Martignetti
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah, because you're, um, you're doing your student teaching now on your way to your degree in education. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's good to thank folks like that. Just, I mean, even if it's not necessarily a thank you, although thank you is outstanding, I think.

Kate Martignetti
Mm-hmm.

Tony Martignetti
Just a hello. Hello.

Kate Martignetti
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
What's your name? You know, what's your name? I see, I see you every day at the, at the entrance, Mr. or Ms. Security Person. What's your name? Yes.

Kate Martignetti
We've got—

Tony Martignetti
good for you.

Kate Martignetti
Sorry. We've got beaucoup but loads more time. Here's the rest of Easy Fundraising and Friend Making for Board Members with Gail Perry.

Tony Martignetti
Let's go to the occasional asker. What's this person's responsibility? Sounds pretty clear, but—

Gail Perry
Yeah, well, the thing is, is that—

Tony Martignetti
Give us the details.

Gail Perry
The reason we say occasional is that we don't want board members to just willy-nilly be asking all over the place. An ask needs to be planned, and it means it needs to be timed correctly. And one of our rules in fundraising, never surprise a donor with an ask. And so the occasional asker participates with the staff team, or if there's no staff, they wear a staff hat as well. Like, is this person ready to have a conversation? You know, we teach a lot about permission. Say to the donor, would you like to have this conversation? Would you like to learn more? May we come see you? So I think the occasional asker role helps me explain to board members how it's supposed to be done, you know. Strategically. Strategically, yes, is a good word. Strategically.

Tony Martignetti
Thoughtfully, relationship-wise. Where is this person on the— on our relationship spectrum versus this other person? And, you know, ready, the other not ready.

Gail Perry
I'll say to the board members, I'll say, um, have you ever been asked before— no, I'll say, what happens if you ask a donor before they're ready? And everybody in the room goes, oh yeah, that is not a good idea. You know, and they've had these experiences too. So it is possible to help board members understand this stuff. But it's not— but they don't walk into the board role understanding how it all needs to work.

Tony Martignetti
No, this is your responsibility to help them understand.

Gail Perry
Yeah, I have fun with this. I enjoy doing this.

Tony Martignetti
And the 4th role is steward.

Gail Perry
Oh, yes. Steward. Steward is the thank you committee of the board. You know, and the stewards are the people who adopt donor retention as something they're gonna help the staff tackle. You know, the whole idea that an organization may be losing half of its donors every year.

Tony Martignetti
Or more, or more, yeah. That's right. 75%.

Gail Perry
Yeah, maybe even losing—

Tony Martignetti
First-time donors lost, yeah.

Gail Perry
Oh, the first-time donors, yeah, they are very unlikely to stick around. And the larger donors do send, their donor retention is higher. But just explaining, helping board members understand the huge opportunities there are in donor retention. And, and it's the easiest ask in the world because these people are already donors right now. Let's just get them to renew their gift and remain supporters, you know. So, um, so, so there's so many ways to thank donors. And I was talking about this at a little party last night, you know, because, uh, uh, there were some people who were interested in tips for my book. I said, well, let me give you a tip about this donor retention stuff. And a board member, you know, the data says that when board members make thank you phone calls, the donors will keep giving and the gifts will go up. Keep giving and the gifts will go up.

Tony Martignetti
And it's such a simple call to make. All you're doing is calling and saying thank you. If you don't get the person, you leave a sincere, heartfelt voicemail message with a phone number, of course, so they can call back. Yeah, those are so simple. You're just saying thank you. That's it.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. Why do you love us? Thank you for loving us. Why do you— you know, if you can engage them in a conversation, great. But they're ideal for board members.

Gail Perry
Yeah. Yeah. And so these are such easy roles.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Gail Perry
You know, the ambassadors are like the social committee and, you know, the stewards are the thank you committee and nurturing those relationships at the beginning and after the first gift. You know, helps create donors that are going to stick with you in the long run. This is how you build a culture of philanthropy too, is helping board members understand all these different roles and helping them get enthusiastic about how they can help, because these are things everybody can do.

Tony Martignetti
I've heard of the stewardship calls being a part of a board meeting. So, you know, maybe quarterly, the last half hour of the board meeting, Is here's the list. We're all going to call. We're all going to call 6 people. Yeah, let's. And if you don't get them, you leave a sincere message. But let's, let's all do this as the last part of a board meeting occasionally.

Gail Perry
And you know, that helps board members understand the whole fundraising process when they do that. It's a wonderful way to ease them in slowly into helping support fundraising. And let me tell you, can I tell you a story?

Tony Martignetti
I love stories. We love stories. Yes.

Gail Perry
One of our clients, this was a staff member who was doing some thank-you phone calls, and she just chose this gentleman who was routinely giving $1,000 a year, every year, regularly, $1,000. And so she called him, and she had taken our trainings, and she knew the questions to ask him, like, I'd love to know how you came to be a donor, you know. And the guy started talking. And she— they were talking about the mission and what his background was in this work and how he felt about it. And he talked and talked. And then he said, you know, I'm so committed to this cause, I want to make a $100,000 gift.

Tony Martignetti
Wow.

Gail Perry
Boom. Without an ask.

Tony Martignetti
Right.

Gail Perry
Without an ask. You know? So,

Tony Martignetti
um, that's fantastic. From a $1,000 donor to a $100,000 donor

Gail Perry
without

Tony Martignetti
an ask. Yeah, without, without asking, just having a conversation.

Gail Perry
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Um,

Gail Perry
and, and, um, and somebody was writing to me recently because I always ask people to try these ideas and let me know how they're doing. One person wrote and she said, you know, I've been having these donor meetings, and when I asked one person why, how they came to be a donor, she opened up like a flower.

Tony Martignetti
Isn't

Gail Perry
that wonderful?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, that's sweet. Yeah, people, you know, yeah, people who are invested in our work, yeah, you know, it's special to them to get a call from a board member, or in that case, the story you just told, that was a staff member. But to just to get a call or a handwritten note— I'm a big supporter of handwritten notes. Yeah, a handwritten note from the CEO or a handwritten note from a board member. You know, these, these things are— they're such easy, easy but enormously valuable touch points that, you know, we overlook them because we think, oh, what's a phone call? But it's a phone call of thanks. That's it. It's a little— it's— you took 5 minutes to write a hand note that nobody does, so it's going to stand out because it's going to come— the little card is going to come, it's going to be hand addressed, it's going to stand out.

Gail Perry
Yeah, it's going to stand out. And, and it— and the money available in donor retention is so great. Right now we're looking at the year-end fundraising for 2026. And I tell everybody, all my workshops and talks, I say, add up every— add up the money. Well, add up all the donors who have given so far this year and then the donors who have not yet given. Yeah. who have not yet renewed their gift this year. And look, look at how much money is available to this organization if you do a good job between now and the end of the year. Start your year-end campaign with a thank-a-thon. You know, start it with a thank-a-thon.

Tony Martignetti
Very good. Yeah. Yeah. You make the point that the first gift is never the largest gift.

Gail Perry
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
And I think that plays obviously into the stewardship we're talking about. But, you know, say some more about that.

Gail Perry
Well, I guess the correct way to do it is the first gift is hopefully never the largest gift.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, okay. Hopefully.

Gail Perry
Because, um, a lot of our research on donors shows that when donors make a first gift, they're sort of testing out the organization. You know, do I like these people? Do they know that I'm giving? And am I anonymous? You know, I don't want— personally, I don't want to be an anonymous donor. If I'm a monthly donor to at 10 organizations, I hope they know I'm a monthly donor. So, so that looking at every donor with the potential that they have a long-term future with your organization also helps change your perspective a lot. And as you know, that the people who have been giving to your organization regularly, even small small amounts, you know, maybe 10 years straight or 20 years straight, you're in their will. You're the planned giving expert, isn't that right?

Tony Martignetti
I know a thing or two about planned giving. Yeah, I know a little bit.

Gail Perry
But the people who are most likely, most likely to make planned gifts.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, those long-term, loyal, committed donors. Yep, yep. And they don't have to be major donors. They certainly can be, but they don't even have to be major donors. Just, it's that long-term loyal support. Those are your best Planned giving prospects. You're right. You're right.

Gail Perry
People who feel committed.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, they are, because they've been giving to you for decades. I mean, it's not unusual to see someone who's given 20, 25, maybe 30 years. And these are not necessarily large gifts.

Gail Perry
No,

Tony Martignetti
but it's the consistency. They love you so much. They think about you at least once a year. Maybe, maybe you see 20 years of giving and 25 or 28 gifts, because some years it's multiple gifts. And again, not necessarily large gifts, but that kind of commitment. You have some thoughts about boards investing in planned giving.

Gail Perry
Oh yeah, I have thoughts about board members investing in fundraising too. I have a whole chapter on strategic decisions that board members make because over and over and over, board members look at the cost of fundraising as an expense. It's just like money down the tube. Can we cut this expense? Can we cut this expense? But the fact is, the money you spend on fundraising is an investment because it pays for itself.

Tony Martignetti
Absolutely.

Gail Perry
And it returns. And so the more, the more you invest in— I mean, the data, data is all over the place. The more you invest in fundraising, the more money you will raise. So I, I tell sometimes when I'm working with this really small organization, that's struggling with building infrastructure, I say to them, you know, here you are, you have $1, and you're trying to feed hungry children or put coats on them or cure disease. You, you know, you really need to spend that whole dollar on your program. But if you don't take part of that dollar and spend it on your organization, you will never grow. You will be on the hamster wheel forever.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Gail Perry
And you'll stay stuck. And so people go, oh, okay. Whether they, whether they bring that through when it comes time to do budgeting is another story.

Tony Martignetti
Another point you make is that major gifts often come from folks you, you already know. They come from insiders. Yeah. These folks just haven't been cultivated and stewarded for becoming the next major donor.

Gail Perry
Yeah, they have not been cultivated at all. In fact, Penelope Burke's great research— she's no longer involved with fundraising, but she would say that every organization has got major gift prospects, major gift donors in its database, but unfortunately they're small donors and they're not being treated like they have major potential. And so you've got sleepers inside your donor database. That's why you have to treat everybody with warmth and love and help them feel appreciation. I want to mention the word feel. The more and more— the longer I've been in fundraising and read the research through the years, it's how people feel that is so important. You know, people want to feel connected. They want to feel appreciated. They want to feel passionate. They want to feel good about their gifts. And when we do a thank you note full of a gift receipt, which we may need to do, but you make it transactional. You miss the magnificence and the joy and the passion of somebody's support for your work.

Tony Martignetti
Well, you can send the gift receipt, but you can also send a sincere Thank you note or phone call. Well, both, maybe both, even an informal call and then a formal thank you note, as well as the gift receipt. You know, that IRS-required document for every gift over $250. It's not one or the other, right? We can do it all.

Gail Perry
I know, and I've worked with some organizations that were still doing this thing called an annual meeting because that was required in the bylaws. Very boring, right? Very boring. Nobody wants to come. But if you turned your annual meeting into an annual donor appreciation event and made it into a party, the donors would show up.

Tony Martignetti
What's the annual meeting?

Gail Perry
Some bylaws require an annual meeting of—

Tony Martignetti
Of the board? You're

Gail Perry
talking about— No, of members.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, if it's a specific type of agency, if it's a membership organization, maybe.

Gail Perry
Museums and botanical gardens and the certain types are usually organized according to membership, which is a real mess if you ask me, but that's not my topic today.

Tony Martignetti
No. Yeah, I understand. All right. Something we've kind of talked around, but let's get into detail about the dividing up the roles, the fundraising roles between the board. We identified 4 roles for the board. But what's the, you know, what's the division between the board and the staff? How do you see the staff supporting the board in those 4 roles? Let's talk about that relationship.

Gail Perry
And, and, well, you know, that, that can be a difficult relation. That can be a difficult issue because we see more and more that board members don't understand the line between their role and the staff's role. People join boards to give their opinion. And so many board members are not going to particularly give opinions about the program area. Um, but they're certainly going to give their opinions about fundraising. So there, I'm following somebody on Substack right now who talks a lot about board members who overstep and try to give fundraising advice to the staff team. Wow. So I just want to touch on this as, as a perennial issue in many organizations, that board members are not educated. And even if you educate them, they feel like they are empowered to provide input into fundraising strategy itself. So I do make those points gently in the book since this is written for board members. But also, the role of staff is to be the quarterbacks of all these donor relationships. And I have seen volunteers get really enthusiastic about a relationship and then drop the ball. And/or the board member may participate in some way and then Nothing else happens because they don't do the follow-up. So staff is the glue to track the donor relationships, to be sure that activity is happening with important donors. And if the board member volunteers to do something and they don't do it, then the staff figures out another way for the board, for the donor to feel, feel, feel good about the organization. So staff quarterback, staff does the follow-up, staff sets up ask meetings. Staff briefs board members, helps choose, helps develop strategy for big asks in collaboration with influencers and occasional askers.

Tony Martignetti
I see the problem that you were describing with board members overstepping and, you know, getting into fundraising strategy. That's the CEO's responsibility to set those boundaries and enforce the boundaries and say, you know, that's really a staff role. What we need you to bring for us is either ambassador, influencer, occasional asker, or steward, you know, but, and we want your help in those respects, but, you know, we can't take direction from all the board members. That's really my role. And our development director's role, if there is one. So you have to delicately enforce those boundaries.

Gail Perry
I would say that a lot of executive directors are nervous about establishing that kind of boundary.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, but that's when you get overreaching if you don't enforce. I mean, it's the same as, I don't know, maybe this is not a very fair analogy, but, and I'm the guy who doesn't even have children. But to me, it's like, it's similar to enforcing boundaries around children. If you don't enforce them, they're going to be tested. And adults are not that much different.

Gail Perry
You're right.

Tony Martignetti
But if you do step in, most adults will learn from a gentle admonition.

Gail Perry
But I serve on the Botanical Garden board, and I chair the development committee. And we've got some new board members who are beating certain topics to death. That they think need to happen.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah,

Gail Perry
I can't— I try to explain it to them, but I'm just a fellow board member.

Tony Martignetti
It sounds like they may have come on the board with an agenda that they want to see, you know, whatever.

Gail Perry
They have this idea and it's such a great idea, and I don't understand why the staff can't implement this idea. You know, when you have that, I mean, that's part of the landscape of nonprofit boards, is to have people like that. And hopefully you have a solid— either a solid board chair or solid executive director that understands that yellow line, that you don't go outside the yellow line of board roles. Yeah. And I will say too that people don't talk about board roles. People don't— board members don't know what's expected of them because so many boards are different. And so just a frank discussion of the board roles and responsibilities rarely happens. They might sign a document That this is what I'm supposed to do, but it's not necessarily enforced and it's not discussed.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, not right. Not enforced, not discussed. We avoid difficult conversations, but they end up becoming 10 times more difficult because the problem festers.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And now we're— and now we're having to manage a problem maybe between a board member and some staff. Because the board member is overreaching. So now it's becoming an employee team member problem. We've got to, you know, you, you can't shrink away from these, these difficult conversations. That's why you're the CEO. That's why you're the board chair.

Gail Perry
And, and, and Tony, the real challenge is once you get a board operating correctly, a third of them leave and you have a whole new group.

Tony Martignetti
Well, well, yeah, but you have the two-thirds that can help Socialize the new 1/3 to the right way of doing things and the board's appropriate role.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Let's— I like— excuse me— I love actionable tips and you have a bunch of them in the book.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
What's something— if we have a fearful board member, what's something we could ask them to do in the next week or so? Fearful around fundraising.

Gail Perry
Oh, do thank you calls and give them a script and make it fun. You know, I suggest a thank-a-thon is bring pizza in, but make people come together. People, people, I mean, after the pandemic, people are so used to Zoom, which, which does not create any sense of collaboration. It really hamstrings a lot of groups meeting on Zoom all the time. So I think helping people, you got to train people a little bit about why, why These thank-yous are so important. What are we doing? Donor retention. We want donors to feel good about being a supporter of our organization.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, there's that feeling, feeling again. How do you feel about the organization? How do you feel it treats you?

Gail Perry
Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's a great way to deal with a fearful board. Let me, let me— another story. Okay, this is a thank-a-thon story. So working with this group, and I said thank-a-thon, and they decided, okay, we're gonna have a thank— we're going to launch our year-end campaign with a thank-a-thon. And there was— it was a medical facility, and there was this older gentleman trustee, and he was very nervous about this whole thanking thing. He just was very— he was reluctant, but he was a good sport, and he showed up for this night, pizza and everything. You know, camaraderie is always helpful too. And, um, so he made a couple of phone calls, and one Call he made— this is a true story now— one call he made was to another gentleman who had had a great experience at the hospital. And the 2 men talked maybe 15 minutes about the hospital and all of these things. 2 weeks later, the person who called, got the thank you call, sent in a $10,000 gift and said, I just enjoyed my conversation so much. You know, and the board member who was fearful was so pleased. He said, maybe this stuff is not so bad after all. So, you know, Tony, we belittle— we make fundraising this awful thing down in the gutter. We make ourselves small when it's all about money. And then if you think about high up on the hill, we're changing the world, white light, making people happy, making people feel their power. Yeah. passion, you know, doing good for the world. And it's the same activity. It's your point of view.

Tony Martignetti
I think it is your point of view. It's all in the mind.

Gail Perry
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
And it's also— pardon me?

Gail Perry
It's how you approach it.

Tony Martignetti
Your philosophy, which is driven by how you think about it. And that's where the book comes in because Board members are thinking incorrectly about what fundraising is as a board member. They're thinking, you know, it's where you started. They're thinking, I have to ask a bunch of strangers or my friends for money, and I don't want to do it. And that's, well, that's the value of your work. That's the value of the book.

Gail Perry
And that's been my life's work, really, with all these board members. You know, my motto is, when in doubt, throw a party. And it always makes them laugh. But, you know, I do that deliberately. I see that. Lighten things up. And I say to the board members, I say, listen, if you can have fun doing what you're doing, if you can have fun changing the world, if you have a sense of passion and camaraderie and enjoyment, what's going to happen? You're going to bring more people in who want to hang with you. You're going to attract more attention in the community because people are going to be talking about it, you're going to raise more money and change the world faster if you can level up that level of enthusiasm and enjoyment. We call it fellowship. I enjoy hanging out with people I know. It's fun. So I do think that if we let board members get help, foster board members' personal relationships, It's very important to have— for board members to know each other because they will enjoy each other, getting to know each other.

Tony Martignetti
The book is Easy Fundraising and Friend-Making for Board Members. Gail, where is it available?

Gail Perry
It's available on Amazon and Goodreads, and I have a Kindle, a hardcover, and a softcover paperback. And it went on sale yesterday, and we achieved number one bestseller status in a couple of categories too, Tony. And, um, I'm so excited to— because my goal, uh, my goal is really to get this into the hands of as many board members as possible and, and help them change the world. That's my goal.

Tony Martignetti
Gail Perry.

Gail Perry
Yay!

Tony Martignetti
Founder— outstanding founder of the Gail Perry Group. Are you, uh, are you active on LinkedIn, Gail Perry?

Gail Perry
Uh, very much LinkedIn.

Tony Martignetti
You are very much active on LinkedIn. All right, so folks can connect with you there. I know we're All right. I know we are connected. All right.

Gail Perry
And if y'all— if anybody listening is interested in some board workshops, I'm happy to chat with you about how to approach those.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you very much, Gail. It's great to see you. Congratulations again. Congratulations again on the book.

Gail Perry
Thank you, Tony. Congratulations on yours too.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you.

Gail Perry
Okey-dokey. Bye.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, hiring your development team with Sarah Olivieri. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, find it at tonymartignetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show's social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great. Thank you.