“Planned Giving Accelerated” & The Martignetti 3-Step, 1-Week Planned Giving Launch

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd be stricken with pulsatile tinnitus if I heard that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate to tell us what's going on.

Kate Martignetti
Hey Tony, here's what's going on. Planned Giving Accelerated and the Martignetti 3-Step, 1-Week Planned Giving Launch. It's a first for Nonprofit Radio. Role reversal. Guest Stephen Christopher Nill leads the conversation and interviews Tony about his book, Planned Giving Accelerated: The Cut-Through-the-Shit, No-Nonsense, Practical, Step-by-Step Guide to Start Legacy Giving Fundraising at Your Small to Midsize Nonprofit Simply in One Week with Bequests. The title may be longer than the book. Did you need a nap? Launching on 15 September. A major part of the book is the 3-step, 1-week planned giving launch. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
My book is here!

Kate Martignetti
Here is Planned Giving Accelerated and the Martignetti 3-Step, 1-Week Planned Giving Launch.

Tony Martignetti
Woohoo! It's a pleasure to welcome back Stephen Christopher Nill, JD, who founded Charity Channel in 1992 and built it into one of the world's largest online communities of nonprofit practitioners. Through Charity Channel Press, he has published dozens of books on fundraising and nonprofit governance. Across 4 decades inside development offices and advising hundreds of nonprofits, He has helped raise billions of dollars. You'll find him writing weekly to development professionals at charitychannel.com. Steve is also on LinkedIn. Steve Nill, welcome back.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Tony, it's always fun to join you on your show. You're quite a character and I always have a good time. So thank you for having me back.

Tony Martignetti
It's my pleasure. I don't mind being a character. That's— I'm grateful for that. Thank you. So we're running this episode very differently. This is a first. I'm the guest. Steve is going to lead the conversation. He'll interview me about my book, Planned Giving Accelerated. You've heard rumors about that book, which launches on 15 September. 15 September. The week we are releasing this episode. Steve, I'm in your hands.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Tony, well, first of all, as you know, I'm a publisher and technically still am, although I'm not accepting new titles. And most of the titles I published are in the rearview mirror now. It's been so many years. But I have to start with the amazing title of your book. The planned giving accelerated part is something that even Wiley might like. But then the elephant in the room, your subtitle, the Cut the—

Tony Martignetti
Can I

Stephen Christopher Nill
exclamation point T?

Tony Martignetti
Oh no, we say shit now. Let me do it.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Comma. No nonsense, comma. Practical, comma, step-by-step guide. Longest subtitle I've seen in a book maybe ever. And, um, that, and, and that, that would have had to have given wily acquisition editors heartaches.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, please. Yeah. Wait, you didn't even give it full justice. So let me go.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Okay.

Tony Martignetti
It's, it's Planned Giving Accelerated: The Cut-Through-the-Shit, No-Nonsense, Practical, Step-by-Step Guide to Start Legacy Giving Fundraising at Your to mid-sized nonprofit simply in one week with bequests. The title may be longer than the book. Did you need a nap?

Stephen Christopher Nill
That is so long that I, I didn't even think that was the real whole title. And so I— that's why I left it off. And now that I'm, I'm looking right at it, I see I screwed that up. It's like unbelievably long title, and it's so, it's so much fun. And Um, it tells me right off the bat that this is— that I'm going to be reading, and I did, a down-to-earth, um, just a very real, real book on planned giving. And I have to say, even though my press has published more than a few titles on planned giving and major gifts over the decades, um, and we've always tried to be down to earth too, you take the cake. This is— this, this got my attention. I— you almost made me want to go back into publishing. Oh. Just to be able to publish your book, but couldn't quite pull that trigger. But congratulations to you on writing the book you wanted to write, because obviously— and I understand there's quite a story behind the whole Wiley thing, but you're not going to tell it without sitting in a bar somewhere with some wine, apparently. But I bet it's a delicious story, and they really missed out if they didn't pick this up, because this is really something. I really, really mean that. It's a very good read, very enjoyable read. Not something you expect on, on a topic like planned giving. So why don't we start with this question? From your perspective, what is planned giving fundraising and what's its value to nonprofits? And I, I would not normally ask that question because everyone kind of has an idea of what that, what the answer would be, but I don't think they're ready for the answer you would give it. Yeah. So go for it.

Tony Martignetti
First, as, as the guest here, I want to do what I do when I'm a guest on anyone's podcast. I thank them. So I thank you very much for leading the conversation here on Nonprofit Radio. Thank you for your willingness to do this. You volunteered and I immediately thought that was a great idea. And, and here we are. So thank you. Thanks also for recognizing the fun And the accessibility of the title. That's, that's why I'm having fun with it. That's why it's the cut-through-the-shit, no-nonsense, practical, etc., etc., um, did-you-need-a-nap book. Yeah, I want folks to know that this is, this is accessible planned giving. This is practitioner level, not academic. This is a book that you're not going to find at the Columbia University nonprofit fundraising management master's degree curriculum. They're not gonna make this book part of their coursework. But I didn't write it for them. It's for practitioners. And there's a little side story too, that the 2 major nonprofit, sort of, I think, legacy media outlets refused the book. They wouldn't excerpt it. They wouldn't review it. I guess they, they believe it has to be an academic tome to be worthwhile in their limited minds and their limited scope of what planned giving is. So that's, that's ancient thinking, and that's what I'm fighting against with the audacious title and just the whole idea that you can have fun with planned giving, and it can likewise be. easy, uh, and accessible and affordable. So thank you for recognizing that. And, and I didn't forget your questions, but thank you.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, I want to thank you. Um, we, we resonate on that because the whole reason I started Charity Channel Press was to find authors like you who, who were very down to earth and, and just didn't try to gussy everything up in academic prose all the time. And that's So you're kind of my hero. I really mean that.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, Steve, thank you.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Let me ask you though, I know I— Well, I didn't answer your first question. I love to get into the myths of planned giving.

Tony Martignetti
All right, I didn't answer your first question though. Did you want me to answer your first question? Go ahead. I took an elaborate time, you know, I was being— I'm trying to be a gracious guest. I'm being thankful. Yeah, the value of planned giving, it's sustainability. Start that with endowment growth, lots of planned gifts. And the one that I focus on in the book, gifts in wills, come as lots of— I mean, the vast overwhelming majority of gifts in wills come as the most desirable type of gift any nonprofit can get, unrestricted cash. And I recommend putting as much of that unrestricted cash as possible. I realize there are constraints. We gotta keep salaries paid, we gotta keep the rent paid, et cetera. But as much as possible, Yeah. Put that into endowment, which helps create and support your, your mission's sustainability in your community.

Stephen Christopher Nill
And for a small nonprofit or a medium-sized nonprofit who— I gather those are the two markets that your book is written to.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I shout them out in the title.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
At your small or mid-sized nonprofit, I'm promising this book is for you. And

Stephen Christopher Nill
so building, building an endowment may not even be on their radar screen by the time they pick up your book, but after they're done reading it, I think they're going to be able to see that they can do that, and you're showing them the way to do that. Is that right?

Tony Martignetti
Exactly. Yeah. If you have zero endowment, like I, I say, and, uh, like Grandpa Martignetti used to say in his broken New Jersey Italian accent, None you worry. None you worry. If you have a zero endowment, everybody, every nonprofit had a zero endowment at some stage. You can launch. You can launch with those first planned gifts when they come to fruition. This is doable. It's very, very doable for small and mid-sized nonprofits.

Stephen Christopher Nill
I guess what I'd like to get into a little bit here is if I'm— and I have started some small nonprofits and have been in that role myself. If I'm, say, an executive director, maybe we do or don't have a development person on staff, probably don't in many cases. And I think about planned giving, I think about all these really super technical kinds of things like charitable trusts and calculating deductions and income streams and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. And I think, man, we are just nowhere near being ready for that. What would you say to that executive director, Tony?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, they're buying into one of Tony's top 6 myths of planned giving. And one of those is that we have to offer lots of gift options. So that means we have to train up our staff on the planned giving methods you mentioned. And I often cite the The nuances of a charitable remainder unitrust with net income makeup provisions, which really does exist. So our staff has to get educated. We're going to need a year of professional development in planned giving before we can be confident to meet our donors and talk to them about planned giving. You're buying into a myth that I despise. It is— it's a myth. It's one of Tony's top 6 myths. You launch your planned giving with the most basic, the simplest, the most easily understood planned gift there is: gifts in wills, also called charitable bequests. They mean the exact same thing. And there are 3 things about gifts in wills that are about wills that make these sort of universally understood, because nearly every American adult knows what a will is. How will works, and that they need to have a will. Those three things are in your favor. That they, along with seventeen other reasons, because in the in the book I have the Martignetti eighteen reasons why gifts and wills are the place to launch your planned giving. So I don't just have one reason. There are lots of reasons why gifts and wills are the place to launch. Planned giving for, for small and mid-sized nonprofits.

Stephen Christopher Nill
You listed 18 of them in the book, and, um, with the first one being they're the most popular planned gift by far. Uh, is that true? Wills, um, gifts from wills outpace, say, charitable remainder trusts or life insurance trusts and things like that?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, by far. Um,

Stephen Christopher Nill
yeah,

Tony Martignetti
you, you'd expect to see at least 75% of All the planned gifts in any planned giving program. You name the largest nonprofits you can think of in the country, Harvard with whatever, $50 or $70 billion endowment, or go to the other coast, the University of California system, or go to the University of Chicago or the Cleveland Clinic, or go down to Texas, University of Texas system. Yeah. Where can we pick in the heartland? I don't know, University of Missouri, University of Oklahoma, Wyoming. At least 3/4 of the planned gifts in any of those programs are simple gifts and wills. And in some smaller shops that I've worked with, I've seen it be as high as 90% of all the gifts are these basic— Wills. Simple charitable bequests, gifts, and wills. Yeah, by far the, the most popular.

Stephen Christopher Nill
So if, if I'm a— if I'm running a small to middle-sized nonprofit, Tony, what would be reasonable for me to expect in terms of what my agency will receive over, say, 5 years if I start a program according to how you suggest doing that in the book? How should I view that?

Tony Martignetti
Uh, well, in terms of dollars, uh, the dollars received, I mean, gifts and wills mean that this is cash to your nonprofit when that planned giving donor has died. So this is long-term fundraising. I make that very clear. So 5 years, there are metrics we could talk about what metrics you might use in the, in those 5 years, but You know, the likelihood of someone dying in those 5 years, I guess, is kind of small unless someone very elderly in their— maybe in their 80s or 90s has put you in their will because you've launched planned giving and they were one of your top prospects. So that's a possibility. But, you know, folks in their 60s, 70s, 80s, they're most likely going to live at least 5 years. So— You know, the dollars realized would be— wouldn't— I wouldn't expect to realize many planned gifts in just 5 years.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Just 5 years. So it's a longer scope. But you mentioned in the book, the average charitable bequest is $35,000.

Tony Martignetti
Right. The average is $35,000 in the US. Yes. It's just that you have to wait, you know, for people to die for this to become cash. So Again, very clear, this is long-term fundraising for your nonprofit.

Stephen Christopher Nill
So if I'm looking at a program like this and I have all of the needs of a small or middle-sized nonprofit in front of me, obviously current giving is going to look very attractive to me, but to the extent that I want to start building an endowment or know, providing for the future, I'm not going to have a lot of assets to invest to do that. I'm not going to be able to train staff and do all the things that I would think of as a planned giving program. But you turn that on its head. You make the argument very well that the investment is really low to achieve the results you're talking about. Tell us about that.

Tony Martignetti
You're kind of like pecking at the Martignetti 3-step 1-week planned giving launch. It's, it's 3, uh, the 3 steps are, are the first 3 chapters of the book, and, and they're all—

Stephen Christopher Nill
Identify your top prospects. That's step 1, right?

Tony Martignetti
Yes, it is.

Stephen Christopher Nill
I've read your book. Launch with gifts and wills.

Tony Martignetti
That's step 2. That's chapter 2, step 2. Yes.

Stephen Christopher Nill
And then cultivate and solicit your top prospects, step 3, right?

Tony Martignetti
That's right. Those are the first 3 chapters of the book.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Within a week of reading those first 3 chapters, you can launch planned giving at your nonprofit because launching means you've had your first conversation, whether it was a cultivation or solicitation, that's going to depend on the top prospect who you had that very first meeting with, depending what stage your relationship is with them. But that's the launch. There's not a campaign, there's not a press release, there's not a 4-color brochure even. You don't need a webpage. You don't even— you don't need a website. You don't need a webpage. You just start having conversations with your top prospects. And of course, I talk about step 1, how to identify those top prospects. But you're right, it's not— not only is it not expensive, it's just— it's wildly affordable. You have everything you need. You have the data in your CRM database to get the— Yeah. Top prospects, you're just going to go query on longevity and consistency and loyalty of giving. And of course, I go into a lot more detail. And then you start with gifts and wills, and that's where I make the case with the Martignetti 18 Reasons Why gifts and wills are the place to launch. So, you know, you're comfortable starting with gifts and wills, and that's, that's the, that's the primary— actually, more than the primary, that's the soul. focus of your marketing and promotion, which I get lots of marketing tips in another chapter. And then step 3, that's where you actually start having the, as you said, the cultivation and solicitation conversations with those top prospects you identified in step 1. You have everything you need. You have the data. Now you know to start with gifts and wills, and you have the relationships. You're talking to people who love your work. We know you're— we know they love it because they've been supporting it for, for 15, 20, 25 years in some cases. Those are your loyal, committed donors that you identify at step 1, chapter 1 of the book, and you open the conversations with those folks. That's your launch— conversations with committed, loyal donors about a gift in their will. Celebrate that you've launched planned giving when you've had that first conversation.

Stephen Christopher Nill
That seems so simple. Um, I, I, you know, you and I have, have a lot of years in the planned giving arena, and we know how complicated things can get.

Tony Martignetti
Um, I hate that. I hate it.

Stephen Christopher Nill
I, I get that. I get that you hate that, and you're starting to make me hate that too, even though I love the, uh, I love the technical aspects from my, from my own career, but you make this really accessible by focusing on the, uh, sort of, I'm not even going to call it the lowest rung of the ladder because frankly, it's the lion's share of gifts that come through it. So that doesn't do it justice. And it's also the, the most direct and straightforward thing that you can ask somebody to do because everyone knows they need a will and. Yeah. You don't have to tell them what it is, and yet if they salt your organization in there as a bequest, um, your organization at some point is going to receive a significant gift, right? I mean, it's, it's just so accessible. That's what amazed me about, about, um, your approach.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I— that's, that's exactly what I want folks to recognize, that it is accessible and affordable and easy. For small and mid-sized nonprofits. You, you've, you just characterized it perfectly.

Stephen Christopher Nill
So I want to hear about the, um, okay, let me, let me, let me say this. I laughed out loud in all kinds of places in the book, especially the footnotes. And, and I'm going to confess here that my, my years as a publisher conditioned me to hate footnotes, Tony, and I even mentioned that to you not long ago. And I suspect that if, if I had published your book, you and I would have had to arm wrestle over, over footnotes, and, and that would be my bad. Because as I look at it with fresh eyes, uh, there is so much fun in the— in, in, in your humor that you, you would miss if you don't read those footnotes. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna withdraw my, my stupid publisher's reaction about footnotes and, um, eat my words. That's very gracious. Because I was wrong. I was really wrong. And if, if you don't read Tony's footnotes, you've missed at least half the fun of his, of his book. It's— they're so fun and refreshing. Um, So, tell us, I used to have this thing called Nill's Breakfast Rule back in the late '90s that I wrote about where I would take financial advisors, financial planners, insurance people, bankers, real estate people to breakfast every morning and cultivate them to send me clients, nonprofit Um, or potential clients who would make major gifts to nonprofit organizations. I called that Nill's Breakfast Rule. And, and it, you know, it was a key, key thing that led to my success in that, in those, in those days. Then I read Martignetti's meal plan and you're like, wow, I, I had to learn what that is. So why don't you tell us, what is Martignetti's meal plan? What is the Martignetti MEAL plan?

Tony Martignetti
Oh, thank you. Yeah, um, MEAL is an acronym in that which stands for Meals Expertly Allow Learning. I, I put this forth because I love doing donor and prospect meetings over meals. I'm an Italian guy. Food is very important to me. But beyond my love of food, I think there's real value to having meetings over a restaurant meal. It doesn't matter. Breakfast. You had your breakfast. You had your breakfast rule. I'm surprised you didn't call it Breakfast Club. Nill's Breakfast Club at NBC or The Breakfast Club, like The Breakfast Club movie, the movie from the '80s. But you had a rule.

Stephen Christopher Nill
You're just way more creative than I am.

Tony Martignetti
You had a rule. All right. It was a rule instead of a club. It sounds more authoritative as a rule than a club. So first, you start with the shared space. We're sharing a physical space, a table. I'm not talking about sharing meals. I don't pass my lunch over to the donors to share, no. But we're sharing a physical space. So I feel like I'm in community with the donor, or maybe it's a donor couple, you know, maybe spouses or partners I'm meeting, but usually it's one-on-one. I feel like I'm in community with the person because we're in a shared space. Shared physical space. We're sharing that table. And then the other advantage is the understood, just the universally recognized cadence of a restaurant meal. We know when there's going to be a short pause, like after the server takes the drink order. And the drink might, you know, it's something that's not necessarily alcohol. It might be iced tea and water. You know, But we're going to have like 3 or 5 minutes before the beverages come. And then they're going to take our— that's a short break. So you can kind of pace your conversation around the milestones, and everybody understands what the milestones are. Both everybody at the table knows, because every adult knows how restaurant meals get paced out. And then, you know, after you give your entree order, then you've got About maybe 10 minutes when the entree comes. So you pace yourself around that. And then when the entree comes, then you know if you got 15, 20 minutes while you're eating your entrees. So these milestones, you can, as the professional fundraiser, kind of time and pace your, your conversation around them. And as the server comes, these are sort of natural, valuable breaks. Maybe you want to shift the conversation. Maybe you want to, maybe you don't, but you can use those breaks as a pivot opportunity because there's been the— because the server has come. So I think between the shared space and being in community and the understood and universally recognized cadence of a restaurant meal, I think there's a big advantage around you pacing your conversations. At restaurant meals. I am quick to add though, for some folks who may not be comfortable with that, maybe they don't like the idea of a social setting for this, for this conversation or for any of their donor prospect meetings. Maybe they're worried about alcohol, like if my donor orders alcohol, do I have to? But I don't drink or I don't want to drink at a business meal, or awkwardness around who's going to pick up the check. If there's anything that concerns you about doing this in a restaurant, then don't. Right. Then you, you do it the way you do meetings best. Your office, their office, their home— those sound like the most 3 likely, or it could be some other, some other place that's, that's not a, a restaurant. You do it the way you are most comfortable, for sure. I just, I, I put forth the, the Martignetti Meal Plan because I see value in it and I want to share it with the readers.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Hmm. Well, that makes it very down to earth and practical, doesn't it? And I think that's brilliant. I really do.

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. My book is here. 15th of September. That's the launch date. You can get it. It's at Amazon. It's at Barnes& Noble. You just look for Planned Giving Accelerated and it will come up. Hard copy version, paperback version, Kindle version. I've got you covered. The audio version will be coming, but not for a couple of months. Audiobook version, that's coming later. Right now, hardcover, paperback, Kindle. Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever fine books are sold. Woo! My gratitude again to Steve Nill for this week's show, for interviewing me about the book. You know, it's it's been a journey, and you've been along with me. I've shared all about my the process, the editors. The legacy media that turned me down, different milestones through the journey. So I thank you for being with me through the journey too. Somehow I feel like it's not quite over. I don't know why. It just feels it's too abrupt. It can't really be done. I mean, it is done, but it's done, but it's not over. It just feels like there's going to be more to More to say about the book. We'll see. Just feels that way. So, but the book is here wherever fine books are sold, Barnes& Noble and Amazon. And that is Tony's Take 2. Kate.

Kate Martignetti
Congratulations, Uncle Tony. This is a very big milestone. Um, also, this is the first time I think I've ever said your book's name all the way through. It's a lot of fun.

Tony Martignetti
That's the idea. Thank you. Thank you for your good wishes. Yeah, that's the whole idea. I want people to see in the, in the, in the title, what's it called? The title. That's what, that's the word, that this is a fun book. Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of good humor in there.

Kate Martignetti
I think you should say it one more time all the way through real quick.

Tony Martignetti
You do, huh? Okay, I won't turn you down. Planned Giving Accelerated, the cut-through-the-shit, no-nonsense, practical, step-by-step guide To start legacy giving fundraising at your small to mid-sized nonprofit simply in one week with bequests. The title may be longer than the book. Did you need a nap? Thank you.

Kate Martignetti
We've got beaucoup boatloads more time. Here's the rest of Planned Giving Accelerated and the Martignetti 3-Step, 1-Week Planned Giving Launch with guest host Stephen Christopher Nill.

Stephen Christopher Nill
I want to kind of circle back to the myths of planned giving because your book is about planned giving, but it doesn't accept the normal sorts of approaches to planned giving that you read in so many books that are published on the subject.

Tony Martignetti
Thank goodness.

Stephen Christopher Nill
And to be honest, I published a couple of those myself.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Stephen Christopher Nill
You know, so I'm right there too. And you start with planned giving is not only for wealthy donors. Explain that.

Tony Martignetti
This is ideal, Steve, for your modest donors, your donors who make small gifts during lifetime because there's no lifetime cost to this. This is going to come from their estate at their death. There'll be a gift of cash to your nonprofit. So it's ideal for modest donors, and you're making a huge mistake. You're leaving a lot of money on the table if you think this is only for your major donors, your wealthy donors, your board members, maybe if they're wealthy. Yeah, they're good prospects. They could be very, very good prospects. But they are not your sole prospects for planned giving. It's not wealth-based. Someone who makes gifts like for the durations that I was talking about, 15, 20, 25 years or more in some nonprofits, if literally if their average gift was $5 and they've done that all those years, and even if they lapsed a couple of years in the past, you know, but they came back, they're not currently lapsed, then they are an ideal prospect for planned giving. For a gift in their will. They think about you all the time, year after year after year, right? Even at a $5 level, odds are they wish they could give more while they're, while they're living, these lifetime gifts. But for whatever reason, they give at the $5 level. But they do it so regularly, and they've been doing it for so many years, they're a great planned giving prospect. So you don't want to make this only for your wealthy donors. That's, that's a big mistake. Yeah. Like I said, leaves a lot of money on the table from, from very modest donors, because that— this kind of gets into something else. I talk about the planned giving multiplier. People have so much more capacity to give through their estate than they do their income while they're living.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Because they don't need it anymore, right?

Tony Martignetti
They don't need it anymore. It's now going to their dear loved ones and to your nonprofit if you're asking them. So, um, they, they have a lot more wealth in their estate, and you just don't want to make assumptions, uh, around what someone's wealth is based on their lifetime giving. That's a huge mistake. I've seen donors with a, like, a $1,500 total lifetime giving, not annually, total lifetime giving, $1,500, 6 and 7-figure gifts, uh, in, in their wills. And that's the multiplier, how many more times a gift in someone's will is greater than their total lifetime giving. So in that case, you know, the multiplier can be in the thousands.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, myth 2 is planned giving is too complicated. Boy, oh boy, is that— is the accepted truth. out there, isn't it? I mean, that's, that's got to be the closed door you're trying to pry back open, right?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, it's not complicated when you launch correctly.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Um,

Tony Martignetti
you don't

Stephen Christopher Nill
have to even give the language that somebody can drop into their will. Actually, I appreciated that. It was very practical in that regard.

Tony Martignetti
Sample bequest. Yeah, get

Stephen Christopher Nill
a simple bequest. That is really not complicated. Get that request, take it to their lawyer. But when it comes down to it, it's a, it's a single clause in a will, and you give them the sample language that they take to their lawyer.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, either go to your lawyer or—

Stephen Christopher Nill
Yeah, it's so complicated. Yeah,

Tony Martignetti
or some folks are doing it online now, more, more online now than—

Stephen Christopher Nill
They'll do their will online, sure.

Tony Martignetti
But either way, yes, I give them a— I give you a sample bequest paragraph for, for you to share with folks to drop into their will. Uh, yeah, that's it. You know, it is simple, Steve. And I, I— look, I don't want to diminish the other planned gifts. I, I talk about them, I stuff them into Not even a chapter though, an appendix. All the gifts of life insurance and the charitable trusts you were talking about and qualified charitable distributions and gifts from IRAs. Well, that is a qualified charitable distribution. Naming beneficiaries, all those, all those other valuable gifts. But that's not where you launch. That's not where you launch. You launch with the simplest, the most common, the most popular planned gift by far. And that's a gift. And again, I've got the 18 reasons why in the book, why you start with gifts and wills. So those other planned gifts can be valuable, but you can go into those in future years if you want to. But just take comfort knowing you don't have to. You can have a wildly successful planned giving program 20 years from now, and all you've ever done is promote simple gifts and wills.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Let's go to myth 3, planned giving requires expertise. So here I am, an attorney who spent decades in the field, and I felt it took a great deal of expertise, but you debunked that myth, and I think that's really interesting. Tell us why it doesn't require expertise.

Tony Martignetti
Well, I'm with you. I'm a former attorney.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Yes, you are.

Tony Martignetti
And I'm a current planned giving consultant. Sure. And I'm telling you, you don't need an attorney or a consultant. And I don't mean just on staff. I mean, on your board, as a consultant, as an advisor, you don't need them. Because you're keeping it so simple. You're talking about gifts and wills. Everybody understands again what a will is, how wills work, and if they need to have one for themselves. Those three things are in your favor. You don't need a consultant. You don't need a lawyer. You don't need expertise at all. You just need what you've already got: the data in your database, knowledge that you launch with gifts and wills, and the relationships. That's where you start with those cultivation and solicitation conversations with your top prospects. You have everything you need.

Stephen Christopher Nill
And your 4th myth you've addressed, which is planned giving means offering lots of gift options. And you do, as you say, move the more advanced concepts and techniques into an appendix, which I appreciated very much because you've made the case so well that a bequest program is really a gift program. Yeah. Going to be very powerful and very attainable. And so getting into the more exotic instruments, which require a tremendous amount of expertise but produce a relatively low amount of results compared to the simpler bequests, I thought that was brilliant. And so myth number 4 is totally busted. And even with me, and I've completed a lot of structured gifts that were very complex over, over the years. And, uh, and even I saw that, you know what, a BeQuest program gets you, what, 80% of the way there with like 5%, not even that, of, of the resources to do— I made those percentages up, Tony, you'd have to correct me— but small amount of resources with a whole lot of leverage in terms of results with the, with the BeQuest program.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, you just start having meetings with those top prospects that, that you identify in step 1. And again, those You know, I had some early readers, you know, the beta readers, a couple suggested that I take out all the— I originally had them when I was at the early writing stage. I originally had a chapter devoted to all the— Sure. All the gifts beyond bequests. And some of those early readers suggested I remove the chapter, because it's contrary to my thesis that you don't need them. They felt like they're unnecessary. You make a whole case, all you need is bequests. And then, you know, you, and then you, and then you add in all the, all the others in, in a chapter. So I, I took the advice halfway. I relegated them to an appendix. It's sort of, it's a resource so that if someone does talk about another type of gift that they are interested in, or in a couple of years, I say, I suggest like after 2 to 3 years, of devoting your planned giving program to bequests, then if you want to expand, you've got the resource in the appendix. Those gifts can be valuable, but not for launch at a small or mid-sized nonprofit, Steve. We just, we're trying to, we've got to stay focused. We've got bandwidth constraints. We've got budget constraints. I guess bandwidth and capacity are the same thing. So small and mid-sized shops, you focus, you focus on what's essential. Identify your top prospects, start with gifts and wills, and cultivate and solicit those top prospects. 3 steps. That's the way to launch.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Now, uh, myth 5: planned giving will hurt our other fundraising. Um, talk about that.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, also untrue, like, like the others. I've seen through the years, I've been doing planned giving since 1997. I've seen probably thousands of people who have made a planned gift, a gift by will. Let's focus it on gift and will, a gift by will, and they've increased their other giving to that same nonprofit. Now, those are anecdotes, almost 30 years worth, but— Yeah. Still anecdotes. So you, you can rely on the quantitative research of Professor Russell James at Texas Tech University.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Who wrote the foreword for your book.

Tony Martignetti
I'm very grateful. He signs on to the easiest— the way to launch planned giving at a small or mid-sized nonprofit, keeping it simple. Yes, he wrote the foreword. I'm very grateful for. And He has quantitative research. So one of his studies is his his area of research at Texas Tech is planned giving fundraising. That's what he studies, and he has a study that showed that for folks who make a gift commitment, a gift by will promise, on average, 75% of those folks will increase. their other giving to that same nonprofit. So during

Stephen Christopher Nill
their lifetimes,

Tony Martignetti
during their life, yeah, but lifetime giving, right, on average 75% will increase. So the myth, uh, that myth like all the others, uh, falls.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Yeah. Well, and the final myth— actually not the final one, um, let's see, you did have 6 myths or 7?

Tony Martignetti
6.

Stephen Christopher Nill
6 myths.

Tony Martignetti
Tony's top 6 myths of planned giving.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Tony's top 6 myths of planned giving. The 6th one is, it's the dreaded death conversation that you're talking to somebody about their death. It's really uncomfortable. They don't want to talk about it. You don't want to bring it up. And that's what this is all about. That's the myth. What's the truth of that?

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, this one is particularly heinous to me. I've got the top 6 myths. I put 5 of them in one chapter. This one is so hateful and so insidious that I devote its own short chapter to it, that this is a death conversation, as you said. And we just— I flipped that on its head. It's a conversation about life. The life—

Stephen Christopher Nill
How so?

Tony Martignetti
The life longevity and sustainability of your nonprofit's work in your community. Because Steve, that's what you as the professional fundraiser or readers have in common with long-term, loyal, committed donors, the love of your work. We know they love it because they've been supporting it for, in some cases, decades. We know you love it because you're fundraising for it. So across all the things in this country currently that could divide us, whether that's politics or age or geography or gender or identity or whatever, you have this in common. You both love the work. And the planned gift that you're talking about, the simple gift in will, is designed and is going to prevent the ugly future where Your work ceases in your community 25, 30 years from now. You both know, you and your donor, your long-term committed donors, you both know how important the work is in the community and that it has to survive. So again, put the myth on its head. It's not at all about death. You're not talking to folks about their death. You're talking about the life and longevity of your— Work.

Stephen Christopher Nill
That's powerful. That really is powerful.

Tony Martignetti
That's the focus of the conversations, every one of them.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, thank you for debunking those 6 myths, some of which I signed on to myself. And I'm looking at it from a completely different perspective. And that, that's super, super interesting and valuable. And I'm looking forward to the next conversation. Even though you write in a really down-to-earth, kind of no BS way, Tony, and just call it like it is, you've got some profound things in, in here that surprised me and delighted me to read and really made me think. And I appreciated that. Um, and anytime I thought you were getting a little bit too, too technical or something, which was very rarely, I just go read one of your footnotes and start cracking up. So, you know, I'm

Tony Martignetti
glad the footnotes work for

Stephen Christopher Nill
you. They do, they do. I worry that, I worry that, um, they're so much fun that they take you away from reading the, the other parts of it. But in, in, in the final analysis, the, the whole book is, is a package that— and it's, it's pure Tony. I mean, I don't— I, I haven't spent a lot of time with you, but what When I have, you've got this sense of humor that I've come to appreciate, and it comes through in the book so well. And it's the opposite of a dry book on planned giving. I mean, even if you didn't care about planned giving, it's a fun read, to be honest. And I really recommend it highly. I really do. And then once again, I find myself wishing I published it.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, you're very gracious. Thank you, Steve. Thank you.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, it's— I mean it. And I guess, you know, I'd like to find out, um, your thoughts on where you want to leave folks before we, we close this, this, this time together out. Um, and also I'd like to make sure we mention where people can find your book once it's launched, because that's important too.

Tony Martignetti
What I'd like to leave folks with is the willingness to shift the mindset that planned giving is undoable. It's inaccessible. It's out of reach for small and mid-sized nonprofits, that this is only for big medical and education institutions. That's false. Categorically false. I've done it for years working with small and mid-sized nonprofits launching and growing planned giving programs. That's, that's why this is the Martignetti 3-Step, 1-Week Planned Giving Launch. I mean, that's the— I, I want you to understand that you can be very, very successful at planned giving in your small or mid-sized nonprofit. That's, that's why I name you out. call you out in the— I guess I should say shout you out. Sometimes I get the colloquialisms all wrong. It's a shout out, right? Not a call out. Call out is bad. Sure. I shout you out in the title. The book is for you. You, in your small or mid-sized nonprofit, can be wildly successful at planned giving. Focus your launch. 3 steps. The first 3 chapters of the book. So I'd ask for a mindset shift that we can't do it, It's, it's not for us. That's, that's wrong. That's wrong. And I, I, the book proves it to you. And it sounds like you're convinced, Steve. Um, so I thank you for recognizing that when you're launching, you stay focused in your small and mid-sized nonprofit, and you can be very, very successful at planned giving. So thank you for recognizing that too.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, you made it, you made it very attainable by a busy, harried Uh, small nonprofit staff, however large that staff may be, usually under-resourced. And that you've really eliminated any possible reason not to launch such a program, Tony. I really, um, commend you for that. And I'm assuming— oh, I wanted to ask you, you also, besides the book, you also offer a course on this. So tell us a little bit about that too before we Yeah, I

Tony Martignetti
can't be too— yeah, the course will be maybe next year. I thought I was doing both. It became too much. I was too ambitious. Well,

Stephen Christopher Nill
maybe I'll interview you when that's launched. I'd love to, by the way, if it's available to do that.

Tony Martignetti
Absolutely. Now I'm focused on the book this year. So we're focused on the book. And you asked where you could get the book. Yeah. Wherever fine books are sold. Which means Amazon and Barnes& Noble in our times. All the book info you can find at plannedgivingaccelerated.com starting September 15th. Well, when this comes out on the 15th, the sale links at each of those, you know, Amazon and Barnes& Noble will be at that site. So you can either go right to the sellers Or you can go to plannedgivingaccelerated.com.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Okay, Tony, this has been a pleasure. Thanks for letting me turn the tables on you. You, you normally interview, uh, everybody, and you interviewed me, uh, once. And, um, let— thank you for letting me interview you. This was fun. I hope you'll do more of this, uh, um, if you're, you know, if Hopefully somebody else would like to do that too, but I'm certainly willing to come back and talk to you about the course once that launches. So anyway.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. I'm not, I'm not sure. Uh, it's, it's a little awkward, but, uh, it's still fun. I don't mean, I don't mean that it's fun. It's just, uh, it's awkward. Uh, but, uh, it still is fun. And I, I thank you again. I, I thank you for your willingness to do it. You volunteered. It was your idea. And, uh, I, I I thought it was a great one. So I thank you very much for doing this, Steve.

Stephen Christopher Nill
Well, you're very welcome, Tony. Thanks for, thanks for being a good sport about it too. I hope others, other people have enjoyed as much as I have.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, there's been too much going on. We just don't know.

Tony Martignetti
Absolutely. Lackluster host. Just, there'll be a show. I promise you that.

Kate Martignetti
If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you find it at TonyMartignetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer. I don't know who I am.

Tony Martignetti
Got too excited.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show social. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great.