Better Governance With Relational Leadership

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd suffer the effects of chondrodermatitis nodularis helicus. That's such a good one. I had to keep it one more week. One more week. If I heard that you missed this week's show, here's our associate producer Kate with what's going on.

Kate Martignetti
Hey, Tony. We've got better governance with relational leadership. Let's have a frank conversation about the state of nonprofit governance and staff and volunteer leadership. Some of the issues are individual, some are systemic. All are fixable once we identify them and their root causes. Froswá Booker-Drew is the founder of Soulstice Consultancy. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Nonprofit Radio is internationally acclaimed.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Better Governance with Relational Leadership.

Tony Martignetti
It's a pleasure to welcome her first time on Nonprofit Radio, Froswá Booker-Drew. She is the founder of Soulstice Consultancy, providing philanthropic guidance, community engagement strategies, and leadership development for companies and nonprofits. She's the founder of the Reconciliation and Restoration Foundation, a nonprofit to amplify, support, and fund the work of Black-led nonprofits. Her latest book is Front Porch Wisdom: Navigating Leadership Barriers for Women of Color, which we're gonna talk some about. You'll find her at drfroswabooker.com. And on LinkedIn. And Froswá is F-R-O-S-W-A accent. Welcome, Froswá.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Thank you, Tony. I'm so excited to be here with you.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. I'm glad you're excited. I'm very glad. I'm very excited to have you. You know, some people say, um, I'm excited. I'm so excited to be here for you today with this. My excitement is brimming over. Can you tell? But I am excited because you have a fantastic topic. You sent a great pitch on governance, governance, and in particular, some struggles that I've heard before. We're going to flesh out even more. Women of color struggling with leadership, put in untenable positions. We'll get there. I don't even know. Typically, I'll ask, what brings you to the topic? Or what are you seeing that we could be doing better? Right. We're going to be talking about what— we're going to talk about what you see that could be doing better, that we could all be doing better at. But why do you focus— why do you focus on governance instead of, I don't know, fundraising, compliance, HR? What is it about nonprofit governance that gets you excited?

Froswá Booker-Drew
I don't know if it's excitement or frustration. I think it's more— I am so frustrated what I'm seeing in the sector around governance. And I was talking to a funder and the comment was made, I have a great board. And I said, well, yes, you would have a great board. You're moving millions of dollars. You're looking at the best and the brightest in town to help you make decisions on that. But that doesn't look the same for small, struggling nonprofits who don't have access to that kind of social capital that you do. Right. And so their governance looks a lot different than yours.

Tony Martignetti
Frustration. Okay. Well, maybe we can bleed the frustration. Your excitement comes out because you're frustrated.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
And you want to see change, which we're going to talk about.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
We'll make sure we talk about what we can do to overcome these shortcomings that you see. And the first is just, you lay it out very plainly. Lack of sophistication and expertise.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes, I think what we're seeing— we're in, you know, unprecedented times. I mean, it is so challenging. Who would have ever thought that nonprofits who receive government funding would go, oh my goodness, that's not an option in the way that it used to be? Never thought that was a possibility. So, you know, as much as I am challenged by the word pivot because we've heard it so much, it really is the truth that nonprofits Nonprofits are having to pivot, and so there is a lack of sophistication that you have for either CEOs or CFOs in terms of dealing with these times and being able to deal with this kind of ambiguity. So I also think that you have a lot of people who ended up in these positions quite often who may not have all the skill sets that they need to do this kind of work, especially when you talk about founder-led nonprofits where I had a vision and a dream. of something that I want to do. I saw a gap in community, and so I want to, you know, do something about it. And that's a beautiful thing. But with that, you may have the expertise in that particular topic, but, you know, may not have that necessarily as it relates to putting together a business. And that's what a nonprofit really is, you know. Yes, it has a charitable piece of, you know, having a mission that is to solve an issue and make an impact, but for it to be sustainable, there has to be some infrastructure And quite often people don't have those skills. They learn it on the fly to be able to come in and actually address some of the issues that nonprofits have. So that's why I think the sophistication piece, you know, in light of skills, but the time that we're in, this is challenging for people to navigate.

Tony Martignetti
And especially if it's a newer nonprofit, you know, initially they're going to look to fill these skills on the board. Because they don't have the capital to start employing or even hiring consultants to get started to fill these skills gaps. But the board members are often well-intentioned, but— and we're going to get to the next one. We're not quite at lack of social capital yet, but you need access to the right people. But how can we help You know, recruit these skills that we do need. Uh, let's just start with our, with our board. I mean, we've identified skills gaps that hopefully we're being honest with ourselves and introspective in what we're good at and what we are not good at. How do we help fill the, fill the skills gaps?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Well, this is the challenge. If the board, um, And even before the board, if the CEO does not have access to certain networks and their network is very limited, they're not going to be able to access those skills. And one of the things that I am often pushing nonprofit leaders to think about is go beyond just looking at someone's title. I think so often we go, oh, this person is a VP at a bank, we need them. But they may not necessarily have the skills that you need or the connections even in the bank to be able to move your mission forward. I'm always pushing, look at a board matrix. Instead of just pulling people out of the air, how do you become strategic and not just looking at names and titles because you think this person can bring something, but using the matrix as a way to help you think about, do they live in a certain geography that you want to have more connection to? Age is another big one that I'm always like, if everybody on the board is over 50 like me, that's problematic. We need some people who can come in and understand some of the newer technologies. that are available in just that, that network. So it's really helping them be strategic about who are the folks that you need there so that you can identify those skills. But even with the matrix, if you don't have connection to those networks, that's going to make it hard for you to get the right people on your board.

Tony Martignetti
Right. So how do we— I mean, how do we improve the— by the way, I love the example of a bank because there's so many vice presidents at banks. I'm

Froswá Booker-Drew
still here. My video does something weird, but I'm here.

Tony Martignetti
It just eliminated you from your— I know.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Hold on, let me see if I can fix that.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Now it's just disconcerting. You disappeared like a ghost.

Froswá Booker-Drew
That's incredible.

Tony Martignetti
How do you— are you a magician part-time?

Froswá Booker-Drew
I wish I could be because I could help move some nonprofit people into more spaces. You

Tony Martignetti
sometimes have to be a magician. That's very— that's well played. Um, there. Yeah, okay. No, that's funny. You just disappeared from your background too. Okay, but as long as I know you're still there. Okay, okay. Um, you know, listeners, you're not seeing, you know, obviously, but in Zoom, like, Froswá just disappeared. The background was there and then she just disappeared. Uh, so I, I was afraid we lost her, but she—

Froswá Booker-Drew
No, I'm back.

Tony Martignetti
I did, with a different background. Okay. Let's, um, did you move rooms or these are just virtual backgrounds?

Froswá Booker-Drew
These are just virtual backgrounds. Now this is real, but I don't like getting bored with my background and I get bored. I'm like, let me imagine I'm somewhere else.

Tony Martignetti
So is that why you disappeared from, from the first?

Froswá Booker-Drew
I wish that was why it happened, but blame Zoom. That wasn't me.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, it wasn't you. All right, I thought you had some specific powers, special powers. Okay. All right, so if you, if you disappear, I'll keep talking. If the background changes, I'll understand you got bored. Okay, okay.

Froswá Booker-Drew
All right,

Tony Martignetti
um, all right, so we don't— right, we don't have access to— oh, as I was saying, I love your example of the vice president of the bank because there's— banks can have scores and scores, and if it's a big bank, thousands of vice presidents. Vice president means very little, uh, so, but that's, that's a great example. But all right. Thank you. So we got to drill down. So we don't have access to the social networks, which is your next explanation of why we need better governance. What can we do? I mean, can we look to funders? Don't foundations have some responsibility in this? Oh,

Froswá Booker-Drew
no doubt. Can

Tony Martignetti
we look to our community leaders? I mean, the talent is in the community, but how do we access it?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Excellent question, because there is a tool that I love, um, and it's this concept called asset-based community development. And there are 2 scholars, Jody Kretzmann and John McKnight, who came up with this concept decades ago that basically says all the assets that you need are in a community. Yeah. So it looks at institutions, it looks at individuals, it looks at open physical space, it looks at associations, And then they added, you know, the oral history component to it. Associations, all these different types of entities exist in community. So I think it's important, and I say this to even startup nonprofits, map your community. So it's not just finding out about the actual facilities, it's looking at the resources, and part of the resources are people. So how do you use something like asset-based community development to help you identify Are these types of organizations in my community? We know that every community, for the most part, has sororities, fraternities. We know that communities have homeowners associations. So how can you use something like that as a tool to help you think strategically about building those connections so that you can start targeting individuals that can serve on your board? How do you help your existing board members tap into their networks using that kind of tool? Yeah. to generate this thinking around, oh, wow, I didn't think about that person who is a part of our police association. They could be someone. And I often say when I'm on boards, people will go, well, we need money. And I'm often saying, yes, but if you would say to me, Froswá, give me 20 names of your closest friends, that's an opportunity to build that network instead of me just going, okay, well, let me write a check. That's great too. But I don't think we see the people around us or the institutions and organizations around us as possible ground for us to begin to start, you know, tilling to get the resources we need.

Tony Martignetti
That's great advice. You're right. Someone could be a donor and not necessarily a major donor, but a donor of some type, but at some level, but But what more can they do? And it's not asking that much to say, who else can you introduce me to that can help our work? And it might be a community leader that, not somebody related specifically to what your work is, but a leader in the community. Well, that person knows dozens and dozens of people. So, you know, how— so not— yeah, that's terrific advice to not— Yeah. be one-dimensional. All right, this person's a donor. That's all they do. That's all I'm ever going to ask them to do. Some of your donors would be, I think, might even be grateful to be asked, who do you know in the community? Put aside the work that we do, but who do you know in the community that might be able to lead us to other folks who could be an asset or could be valuable assets for us in lots of different ways, way beyond donating?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Right. And I think we fail to realize sometimes in this business of helping people that our greatest resource are the people that are around us. And so what does it mean to really engage your donors, even small donors, to begin to ask them who are people that we should be connected to? Because they're going to sell it because they're already affiliated and have some passion for the work. But we always try to go get people with names that we think for some reason they're going to draw these people in. But if they don't have the commitment to your mission, And they don't have the passion around and purpose around your mission, they're not going to be able to bring in as many people either because that's only going to go so far. So I really push people, think about who are the folks that are in your network and begin to drill down there.

Tony Martignetti
Like you mentioned, a perfect example, you know, HOA. Who runs your HOA? You're in an HOA. You mentioned you're in an HOA. Like we're over a lunch meeting with a donor. Oh, you mentioned your HOA told you that your grass is too long and that pissed you off. You know, I hate HOAs, but I have a whole soapbox about HOAs. I would never, I would never, I would never, never— I rarely say never, but I would never buy a home or own any piece of property that's governed by somebody else.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, I did it one time.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, did you?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah,

Tony Martignetti
yeah. No, uh, it's January 2nd, uh, your Christmas lights have been out for too long, uh, your, your, your, uh, outdoor lights are too bright. Your grass is on the sidewalk by an 8th of an inch. We have a nip, we have— we measured it. Please, I don't know. How did you survive? Did you survive your HOA?

Froswá Booker-Drew
They weren't as organized, going back to governance, and that had a lot to do with it.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, you got lucky. Then you got lucky.

Froswá Booker-Drew
I was lucky. I was very lucky. I have a friend that, um, she planted some flowers and they made her dig up her flowers because they didn't match the scenery of the community. And she had to dig them up. I kid you not.

Tony Martignetti
Your flowers don't match our scenery.

Froswá Booker-Drew
I was stunned. I was like, I would have told them where those flowers could have gone.

Tony Martignetti
Talk about little big fish in a little pond. Your flowers don't match our scenery. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Your lights are too bright. They, they, or they're not bright enough. HOA, I would never. Anyway, so, so you're talking to this hypothetical donor. Oh, you mentioned you and your HOA. They don't like your grass, but who runs the HOA? Now, they may not, you know, they may— I'm not introducing you to that person because I can't stand them, but maybe they, maybe they had a good experience. Like, maybe they were the tattletale. Maybe they told on their neighbor who had the long grass, and then the HOA acted. So they're actually very positive about their HOA experience, the, the most recent one. Just wait till the next one when they come out, when your neighbor comes back after you. Right. So until that hap— before that happens, Get with your donor. Ask, you know, who runs your HOA. They know lots of people. Um, you know, connections, connections. Now you're— now we're getting back to something you mentioned earlier on. You're running this like a business.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Networking. Networking doesn't only mean going to the Chamber of Commerce meeting once a month if you run a business, or lots of nonprofits are in chambers too. It's— that's not— that's, that's like scratching the surface of network. Who do you know? Who do you know that may know folks that could help us?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, I even, you know, remember at an organization I worked at years ago, and it impressed me and impacted me greatly, was that they had letters going out to donors. And they had board members who knew them writing little notes on the side that said, hey, Joe, I'm so glad that you're considering this. I'm a part of this organization. The key is relationships.

Tony Martignetti
Brilliant. That's such a smart thing for board members, like little margin notes in letters.

Froswá Booker-Drew
It made such a difference to see their friends on that. And so I think we forget the power of relationships. And even for nonprofit leaders, I'm pushing, what associations can you join? Sometimes they're too busy for their own good because I'm like, some of the things that you're doing, relationships could actually help expedite that process for you if you had the right people. I share it with a lot of nonprofits. You don't have a money problem, you have a relationship problem.

Tony Martignetti
Mm-hmm.

Froswá Booker-Drew
If we get the right relationships, you're gonna have what you need. What does it mean for them to join groups like the Association of Fundraising Professionals? There are all these different associations that exist that I don't think we are strategic about building, you know, relationships and networks with them to help us advance this work.

Tony Martignetti
Including local. I mean, so AFP, they have local chapters, you know, they may have one local or regional, but also local community groups, you know, like the Chamber of Commerce I was making fun of a second ago, but That, that, that can lead you to a lot of business owners in your, in your town. You know, just talking about in your town, your community, your county. Um, I don't know, I don't know if Rotary is active. You know, I, I know a lot of civic organizations are, of course, declining because people don't join so much anymore. But, but Chambers of Commerce, that's a good example. Um, you know, can you be on a board of something like a, a public board? Yeah. Or can someone else in the agency be on a public board? That's exposure. That's networking. These are the forms of, you know, you got to get out because I absolutely agree with you. Every community has the talent that it needs.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Absolutely. It's tapping into that. And I think it's also just being strategic because it is so easy to have the desire to just grab people because perceived influence. And I don't think we, you know, when we're even interviewing board members, we ask questions about their connections. I think we're so fixated on, the dollars that they can bring. I don't think we really ask them about what is their involvement. Are they a part of a group with their, you know, place of worship? What are the things that they're doing? Because if all they're doing is going to work and they're not really networking there, they're not going to benefit you well either. So when these challenges come up with skills, they're going to be limited in being able to get you what you need.

Tony Martignetti
Right. And, and that That limits— that just limits your growth, your scaling, your success, your longevity. You know, you're— that would— so we pretty much covered your second point, which is lack of social capital and networks and what to do about it. Just being strategic, running like a business, asking for help. People want to help people.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
If they love your cause, even if they're a $10 donor, They're a new donor to you. They love your cause enough that they've started giving to you, or maybe they're volunteering. Volunteering is also very valuable, people giving of their time. Yes. Odds are they want to help you even more, and this is a low-lift way to do it. You know, it's just— If

Froswá Booker-Drew
you don't ask.

Tony Martignetti
Introduce. Yeah, but if you don't ask, right? You don't ask, you're not going to get.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
All right. I love how it's plain language. People are asleep at the wheel. What is your beef there? Before we get to what to do, what are the symptoms of asleep at the wheel?

Froswá Booker-Drew
When you see organizations that— I'll say one in our area. There was an organization that closed. Very huge nonprofit in our area, was doing great work. And I think board members were not asking the right questions about finances. And so—

Tony Martignetti
Big, like you said, huge organization. Like how big? Like what kind of annual budget roughly?

Froswá Booker-Drew
These folks, multimillion-dollar budget, serving upwards 40,000 people, I think, a year. I mean, it was massive.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah. And to watch an organization decline because people didn't see flags, And I think what they did was trust the leadership of the organization to be able to turn it around instead of recognizing this is a group effort, that the board is really responsible for ensuring the health of this organization. And I think there were probably a number of points of concern that the board may have just said, good luck. figure you guys got it. Wow. And so, and then it got to the place that the organization was on life support and had to make the decision to close. And so I think one, finances is a really big part of board governance. And I think you sometimes have board members who may not have the sophistication to be able to read those, you know, profit loss statements and to better understand what is going on. What does it look like to have a healthy organization. So they may not even ask for, give me a dashboard of the health of our organization so that we know. Now, the goal is not for you to start going in their QuickBooks and start looking at every little entry. That we have to believe that they have the right people. But I think boards don't ask the hard questions. I think what we assume is the leadership is competent and they know what they're doing. And, and I would say more often than not, that is true. But if we're not asking the right questions, if we're not, you know, making sure that there are feedback loops, if we don't have protocols in place to, you know, ensure what do we do, you know, if this happens, if we don't talk about risk management and we're not thinking about liability that we have as an organization, I think we're setting our organizations up to fail.

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. Nonprofit Radio, the very podcast you are listening to and hopefully enjoying this very moment, this very moment, recognized now across 3 continents. Just in the past couple of weeks, there was a LinkedIn post from a woman in Venezuela That was complimentary of Nonprofit Radio. And that same week, there was a blogger in Germany mentioning and recommending Nonprofit Radio. So we've got South America, Europe, the US. I don't know where we should expand to next. I don't want to say conquer. I almost said conquer. I don't want— no, no, not conquer. Where should we expand to next? Where should we look? Australia is good. They speak English in Australia. I was also thinking Antarctica. Antarctica is close. It's got the proximity advantage. So I think we're going to strive for Antarctica to be our next continent. And I hope that those of you who suffer dry eyes no longer— there shouldn't be a dry eye in the audience. Because we all know that the pistachios from last week. So I hope those with dry eyes have cured them because it's supposed to be 3 to 4 hours. That's the cure. It's going to happen in 3 to 4 hours. So your dry eyes are no more. You're taking your quarter cup of pistachios. I hope. Just a reminder. So yes, international acclaim. I'm grateful to be recognized. Internationally, that's fantastic. It's gratifying. Thank you. Thank you, Venezuela. Thank you, Germany. And thank you in here in the US. I'm grateful for all our listeners. I'm glad you're with us. I am glad. Thank you. That is Tony's Take Two. Kate? Thank you, Tony.

Kate Martignetti
Congratulations, Podfather, of being recognized across 3 continents.

Tony Martignetti
Ah, well, you're the associate producer, so congratulations to you.

Kate Martignetti
Um, I will have to say I'm changing my mind from rehearsal. I hope we are recognized in Australia because I love Bluey and because I've always wanted to see a kangaroo.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, well, kangaroos you can see in a zoo. You don't have, you don't have to go to Australia to see a kangaroo. I'll bet.

Kate Martignetti
Never seen one.

Tony Martignetti
Well, you got to get out more. Go to, go to a zoo. I bet there are kangaroos in, in US zoos. There must be.

Kate Martignetti
I went to the Philadelphia Zoo. I don't think they had a kangaroo.

Tony Martignetti
I'm surprised. Philadelphia is a pretty good zoo.

Kate Martignetti
Well, it was a few years ago, so maybe they have a kangaroo now.

Tony Martignetti
Well, we've had kangaroos for 1,000 years or so. It's not a new— it's not, it's not new in the evolutionary acquisition. So yeah, I don't know. Okay. Well, I'm sorry you haven't seen one. You don't— I don't, I don't think you have to go to Australia. And then Bluey, I don't know what a Bluey is. You better educate me the same as, same as Riz.

Kate Martignetti
Okay. I thought you knew about Bluey because I talked to Aunt Amy about Bluey. And I feel like we had this conversation at your beach house, but Bluey is the, the kids' show. It's based in Australia and it's the, the dogs, the Blue Heelers.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I wasn't in this conversation.

Kate Martignetti
No,

Tony Martignetti
no, I was probably preparing dinner, taking out the garbage, putting out the recycling, cleaning the grill,

Kate Martignetti
right? While we were having child issues.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, doing prep for dinner. Getting all the chairs and the umbrellas together for the beach walk. I was probably doing something frivolous like that while you were having the serious Bluey conversation.

Kate Martignetti
Bluey conversations. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
So I'm sorry, my frivolity kept me out of Bluey. All right, it's a kids' show in Australia, is that right?

Kate Martignetti
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
But it must be— it's here.

Kate Martignetti
Well, yes, it's on Disney.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, okay.

Kate Martignetti
So I watch it through Disney. But And Amy and I like it because it's kind of like a chill kids' show. It's not like overstimulating with the lights and it's not loud.

Tony Martignetti
Good. Okay. Okay.

Kate Martignetti
Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble.

Tony Martignetti
No, no, no. Your Aunt Amy and I never talk anyway, so I wouldn't have known. If you, you could have a conversation with her, never assume it's gonna get back to me. Never assume that.

Kate Martignetti
We've got beaucoup, but loads more time. Here's the rest of Better Governance with Relational Leadership with Froswá Booker-Drew.

Tony Martignetti
So it sounds like you're saying the, the CEO or maybe other leadership brought things, brought issues to the board, but this board in this organization that failed just ignored them. I mean, like, like the CEO is waving the flag and nobody's looking and nobody's

Froswá Booker-Drew
I think

Tony Martignetti
it's a

Froswá Booker-Drew
combination. I think you had possibly— I don't know all the inner workings. I was very close to the CEO who came afterwards, who had to make the decision to close it. That's a whole nother conversation.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Froswá Booker-Drew
But one of the things that I think happened was the board may have gotten, like we normally do, you get reports. And I think we look at those reports and go, great job. And I don't think we ask the very difficult questions about, well, how did we get to this budget? What, what money is coming in? What's the plan for sustainability, especially getting a lot of government grants? I think it's being able to go, okay, this may not last forever. And there was a belief that, you know, especially after COVID, people got a lot of money, and this organization was one that they got a lot of money that came in during the pandemic to be able to support folks. And when that ended, That dried up a lot of their resources, and there wasn't a lot of contingency planning. So I think it's helping boards to ask the very complicated questions about, so what happens if we lose this huge funder? What's our contingency plan? I think more often than not we go, oh, we got it, good, let's keep moving along. And I think with that board, I think it was a combination of the CEO and team, you know, may have waved the flag. May not have shared all the details. I can't say for certain. I also know that there possibly could have been a board who wasn't as sophisticated to be able to know what questions to ask, and they're not the only ones. I see this with a number of the organizations that I work with—that board members are coming eating Jason's Deli, and I don't think they recognize the importance of the risk management. The, the fiduciary responsibility that they have to ensure that this organization is not just surviving but thriving. And I don't think we have those conversations because maybe it's the fear if we really share that with boards, will people stay? They're going to run off. Or do we want to feel good and, and just, we're doing good work, but we don't want to share that there is a responsibility that's a part of this good work too.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, the duty of loyalty and, uh, and, and care to start with, the fiduciary duties. What did you say, eating Jason's Deli?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, they come and eat Jason's Deli at the meetings and, you know, everybody's just so happy. Okay, okay. Got a great sandwich.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, okay, they had a delicious lunch from Jason's Deli.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Okay,

Tony Martignetti
that must be a deli. Is that a Dallas institution? Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, so whatever it is for you.

Tony Martignetti
No, no, I know. I thought maybe it was a phrase that I, that I missed because I'm, uh, 63, not, not 20-something. So I thought maybe it was like Jason's Deli, like you're eating, you're eating pie in the sky or something. Okay, Jason's Deli, I got you. All right, it was their lunch. It was— I got it.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Okay, so

Tony Martignetti
yeah, we had a good lunch, so this was a successful meeting.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes, you know, and it's more than just feeding people and them coming together and, and feeling like they voted on some things. I think In moving forward, what I would love to see boards really begin to start asking for dashboards of health to ensure that they're looking at the health of the organization and contingency planning. So if there is something that may go away, let's say we lose our CEO, what do we do? What happens if this funding that we had before dries up? What do we do? I don't think we do that enough.

Tony Martignetti
What do you think some of the things on the dashboard of health Uh, should be. I'm— to my mind, the first one I think of is, um, months or days, hopefully months, cash on hand.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
But, but that's just why— that's just my first one. I'm, I'm not as deep in this as you are. So what should be in— name some things that should be in the board's dashboard of health that they should get briefed on.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah, I would want to know what are our actual— in terms of, of dollars, what is it that we actually have and what's pledged, because so often you have nonprofits that are creating budgets based on what they expect to come in. And so that, that's kind of scary if we're not asking, what do we actually have? And what happens if those pledges don't come in, or say a funder, something happens? I want to be able to know what's the gap and what do we need to do to be able to solve for that. So that's important to me. Leadership is important for me to assess because I want to make sure our CEO has the resources that they need to be successful. So part of governance is I'm evaluating that CEO. So we need to have on that dashboard, when's the last evaluation? When's the last time that they've had an opportunity to be, you know, not only evaluated if they're doing good work, promoting, you know, the budget for them and getting them a little more money and making sure that they have what they need. So I think it's looking at things like that. So it's not just the financial piece. I think that's a big part. That helps,

Tony Martignetti
right.

Froswá Booker-Drew
But that dashboard has to look at the health of that organization. So, you know, just like, you know, you get a report for your car and making sure that, you know, from a year from now, I need to get an oil change, I've gotta get that inspection sticker. What are the things that you need to know as a board leader to ensure that organization is where it needs to be? And finances, but risk management is another part. A board that I was on, we had a situation that was a safety issue, and I don't think we think about safety challenges that may be external and the communities that we're in. So how do we make sure the organization has the security and the protection that it needs, and the staff and the clients have what they need? Because there may be some external challenges that happen. That's a risk situation. And so how do we make sure we're looking at security? Facilities are another. If you have an organization that owns its own facility, HVAC issues are going to come up. All of those different things are going to, you know, it happens. So how do we make sure that we're even looking at that and going, oh, we've had repairs done a year ago, in 2 years we may have this as an issue. What's the budget implication for that? So I don't think we think about all of those things. I think we just get in and want to do good work. And that's important and it's valuable. But I'm watching so many organizations suffer because they don't have people at the table who are asking those questions.

Tony Martignetti
That's a valuable list of things you ticked off, from risk management to facilities. Yeah. You know, HR issues too. How are we doing in employee retention? Professional development? Are we moving folks along? But again, to your earlier point, not what's this person's title? What's her— how does that compare to this other woman's title? You know, not like that micromanaging. That's counterproductive. But what's our employee retention look like? How, you know, do we promote folks? Do we— leadership succession, succession planning. Right. That goes along with risk management, succession planning. Suppose we lose a key leader for some reason, or maybe not to death, but serious illness.

Froswá Booker-Drew
It happens.

Tony Martignetti
CEO's gonna be out for 3 months. What, what would we do? Things like that.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
All right. Um, the glass cliff. Glass cliff. I've heard this a couple— well, at least once before. Describe, describe the, the particular challenge that that you see that concerns you, and then we'll talk about what we can do to support people, support the, the people we're most concerned about.

Froswá Booker-Drew
I think, and, and I've seen this personally, where organizations are having challenges, and oftentimes they will bring in women or people of color to come into those organizations when it's a mess. and they are expected to clean those situations up, and they don't have the resources and the support, and the expectations are also not realistic either. So if it took us 10 years to get in this mess, but I expect this person to come in and clean it up, um, I'm telling them, hey, you can be here, but there's only so much that they're going to be able to accomplish and do because of all of the challenges that they have. And for a lot of women who are in positions, it's hard for them to be promoted and moved up in an organization because of— quite often when it does happen, it's usually because they're having to clean up something that they didn't create. And without the resources and tools— and, you know, my research is on social capital, and I recognize that so often for people that are from marginalized communities, including women, you may not have those networks. And so it's hard to be successful because you don't have sponsors, you don't have people that are advocating, you know, on the board, because you didn't pick that board, you're brought into it and you didn't have any hand in it. And so because of that, you're not set up for success. You can see it, but you're not set up for it well. And so you don't Thrive. And it's not due to a lack of education or experience, but you're in an environment that you're not going to win in because the expectations and the resources aren't there for you to thrive.

Tony Martignetti
How is it that women of color particularly are recruited for these jobs? Is it because I'm, I'm in the most grossly cynical perspective. Maybe this is not the case, but is it that others wouldn't take the job because they know how messed up the organization is, but this is an opportunity for advancement? Yeah. Is, is it

Froswá Booker-Drew
that? I saw that with a, a recent, um, situation here, that someone was recruited from the outside, a woman of color brought in, had no idea. She didn't have the connections to call people and say, should I do this? Because had I known her at that time, I would have been like, you do not want to walk into that mess. But because it's an opportunity where she was at, she couldn't move up and there was not the potential for growth. So she was recruited to move to this area and was placed in a very difficult situation. And headhunters aren't going to tell you, hey, look at how horrible this is, you're in a mess. And I think it happens for most people. But for women of color, the challenge becomes, again, the networks, the resources, the relationships of folks on the board who don't know her that they had with the previous person or predecessor. He was able to pick the folks he wanted and had built camaraderie with them. She's walking into a situation where they're going to clean it up and we need it done in this amount of time. And so that isn't always the best scenario for anybody.

Tony Martignetti
Like, there's no way the person could succeed. But yeah, but I was focusing on how they find themselves in these untenable situations. You're saying it's largely— well, your research is on social capital, and we're going to talk about your— I don't know if that's your PhD work. We're going to talk about that shortly. I do want to focus on that too. But how they just— so, you think it is that, you know, it's a leadership opportunity. It's a losing proposition, but I realize they don't know that.

Froswá Booker-Drew
No.

Tony Martignetti
And somebody who's better informed, or maybe who has leadership experience in the past, would see the red flags, even like in the interview process. But this is a less experienced person, or, you know, new to leadership. They don't see the flags, and nobody's going to tell them. So that's how they end up there.

Froswá Booker-Drew
I think it's a combination of things. I think, to this person's credit, very experienced. They had not been in a CEO role with this budget. They had come from another place. I don't think the budget was

Tony Martignetti
Not at this level. Yeah.

Froswá Booker-Drew
And so I think quite often it's the aspiration of, oh wow, I want to move into this space. And I think when those kinds of opportunities come, because they're usually so few and far between, you run after those kinds of opportunities and may think, oh, it's not, it's not so problematic, not recognizing even with the right questions Headhunters are going— are also going to be limited on how much information they have on the dirt of an organization too. So I think that, you know, unless you get an opportunity to really interview people that are part of the team, which that doesn't always happen, you're going to have limited information to make a decision on.

Tony Martignetti
All right. Well, I think we know how— well, no, we didn't really talk about, you know, just All right. So, if you're going to hire these folks, they're at a disadvantage to begin with. But then, if you expect them to turn around your organization, first of all, you have to have reasonable expectations about how long that's going to take. Right. And then the incremental tiny steps that are going to be needed before we can say, before we can look back 3 or 5 years from now and say, well, look how far we've come from the depth that we were in.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
You know, but like, you're not moving fast enough. Your steps you're taking are too small. Yeah, but I need to, but I need to change the board. I need to change the composition of the board. I need to change the composition of the leadership. I need to change the compensation, uh, the, the succession plan that, you know, I got to deal with the, the, the financials. I need, I need, you know, I need to build relationships so I can, we can have major donors someday. I need to build foundations with Relationships with funders, institutional funders, so someday we can, we can apply for the $4 million grant. But that's not going to happen in 6 weeks or even probably 6 months.

Froswá Booker-Drew
And I think that's the problem is how do you level set expectations and making sure that if we're going to recruit people into these positions who are qualified, who are more than competent, who have the expertise, that we give them the same grace That we gave to those who may have come in and had time to get it in the position that it's been in.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, the guys who screwed it up, the, the, the folks who screwed it up, we gave them grace for 10 years to get us here. Oh, it'll get better. Yeah, better. What? We're in year 7 and a half. Well, how is it getting better? Yeah, cut your losses. You're 75% into a disaster, but you can, you can recover.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Exactly. So how do we extend grace to both and provide them the same resources that we gave to the people who got it in the position that it's in? How do we extend that kind of grace? And usually they can't because the money isn't there that the other people had. So I think we have to be very realistic about our expectations when we bring people into these roles and then expect them to work magic and turn it around. Doesn't happen that quickly.

Tony Martignetti
Not at all. It's incremental. Well, maybe there are some success stories too.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Oh, definitely

Tony Martignetti
there are. Well, women of color succeeding, maybe not even necessarily a turnaround, although it could be turnaround, right? You got—

Froswá Booker-Drew
So many that are doing— I, I've seen startups. I was telling my daughter this earlier. I've watched startups like, um, I think about there's a lady here named Cecily who started a nonprofit called Abide Women's health services. And Cecily took an idea and has grown this to a million-dollar-plus organization of providing doula services to moms. And she partnered with another nonprofit that spun off, a lady by the name of Priscilla, who has a nonprofit called Delighted to Doula, who does the aftercare of pregnant moms after they deliver. And to watch these organizations— Priscilla has gotten funding now to move into Houston. been doing great work in Dallas, and now she's going into another market because of how valuable the services she provides. But these were 2 startups that have grown, had challenges. I've seen all of it with them, but they are— there are success stories. And what I don't want people to think is, oh my goodness, you know, that doesn't happen. And it does. I've seen women of color lead very successful, thriving, million-dollar-plus nonprofits. But again, it's having the boards who support them, who give grace, and who are willing to extend their networks to them and resources to make sure that they're sustainable.

Tony Martignetti
Which is not asking them to do anything more than they would do for any other CEO.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Thank you. Do it for everybody. That's

Tony Martignetti
my point. Of any persuasion, of male or female.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
Any other CEO would ask the same thing.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Do it for everybody. That's all. And I don't think people understand it. I think they get so caught up in Oh my God, you're taking something from someone else to give to somebody else. No, just be fair to everybody. Give everybody an opportunity. That's it.

Tony Martignetti
Let's talk about your research. So you have your PhD from Antioch?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Is it in social capital?

Froswá Booker-Drew
It's in leadership and change, but I focused on relational leadership and social capital. I'm intrigued by relationships.

Tony Martignetti
Relationship— wait, this is a big phrase now, and you've been studying it for years, and I just heard it for the first time. Relational leadership and social change?

Froswá Booker-Drew
Social capital.

Tony Martignetti
Relational leadership and social capital. Okay. Relational leadership. Yeah. Why don't you say something about what does your research show you about the value of relationships to lead? I know there's value.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
What does your research share? Share some of your lessons.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Oh, I learned so much. I brought together a group of women leaders in the Dallas area, and I wanted to— a couple of things. I wanted to use the Immunity to Change process. If you've never read the work of Kegan and Lahey, 2 authors out of Harvard wrote a book called Immunity to Change, threw adult development on its head. But basically what they say is adults can change. And so I wanted to use their tool to see if you can use this to build relationships, that can we look at a change management strategy That can help women build relationships with each other as they're trying to create their own change in their lives and with the organizations that they serve. It was amazing because we had women who were different religions, various ages, different ethnicities. It was wonderful watching the connection. I learned a couple of things. When people are in proximity to each other, we become advocates for each other. So it's not us versus them. We just need spaces to talk to each other and see similarities. So that was one of the things. And that through that, something happens called perception transformation. That when we're talking to each other, you cause me to start thinking differently about the way, especially if I'm not rooted in what I'm in and I have to be right. But with the right environment, people's perception will transform. Because of the relationship that when I'm listening to you and research has even shown that when we're listening to people and we're having these deep conversations, our brain patterns begin to mirror each other. So something neurologically even happens when we're in proximity, having conversations and connections. And that was one of the things that I noticed with the women. But I also noticed how they were building their own networks through the connection with each other. So we had 2 women at the time in my research who were both unemployed. One was Black, one was white, and they had very different experiences of unemployment. And listening to them talk about their journeys, they started helping each other. It was like, well, hey, I can do your resume. Well, let me tell you some things that you may need to think about that can help you get the hookup with this next job. It was just so cool to watch these women That research happened years ago. Do you know that these women still meet, still get together all these years later and just hang out and love on each other? And it was because of creating this environment. So I learned a lot. But for me, it was, how do I help people build this ideal of social capital? And it's not a term I came up with. Social capital was coined by this man named Hanifin in the early 1900s who saw some parents talking and he said, They're sharing social capital. They're sharing resources. And the term has gone through this iteration. You see it in public administration and economics, but it's always this idea of how people move things in our society. It's a form of currency. And I think we always think about the financial part of it, but not recognize that it actually is the key to everything. Money is attached to people. Experiences are attached to people. And so the more modern-day father of it is this scholar I adore named Robert Putnam. And Putnam wrote this huge book, Bowling Alone, in 2000 that talked about—

Tony Martignetti
Oh, yeah.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yeah. And so he talked about how bowling leagues were instrumental in people building relationships. And if you notice now, we're so much more polarized, as much as we think social media does that. you don't have the proximity that happens when we're in person with each other and having conversations. I can be a keyboard warrior and just say whatever I want to you and hide behind, you know, an avatar, and you never really get to have an experience with me and get to know me. So my research is really, you know, helping folks think about what does it mean internally to build social capital with your teams? Because when you do that well, then you can help your external community. But if y'all all hate each other, and you can't stand the ground that your boss walks on, how do you expect to go into communities and have that affection for them when the team has a very toxic culture?

Tony Martignetti
So what are some of the lessons we can convey to nonprofit leadership? You're talking about relational leadership and social capital. What are some of the leadership takeaways for us?

Froswá Booker-Drew
So nonprofit leaders have to understand that leadership is a process with people. And that we have to get to know our teams. Now, I'm not, you know, expecting you to know what toilet paper your team uses. That's too much information. But what I do want you to know is what's the motivation? Why do they do what they do? It's more than just the job, because if I understand what motivates you, why you do this work, then I can begin to help you grow in those areas that you may not be as strong in. But I can also help amplify the ones that you have strength in. So I have to know you. I can't just know you for the function of the job. I've got to get to know what interests you. What is it that you don't like? Because then that helps me understand, oh, don't put them in this position because we're not going to get the response we need. So relational leadership is really about helping your team grow and thrive through the practice of building relationships. So one of the things that I'm often talking to teams about is how do you play together. Play— kids learn each other through play, and we lose that when we get to be adults, that we don't want to play anymore. So what does it mean as you are thinking about retreats, how you create space to play with one another as a team, to learn, wow, they're really competitive, oh my goodness, this is the person who likes to coordinate and organize? How do you build relationships not just in the office but thinking about strategically twice a year pulling your team together and not having a to come in and talk to them, but having them grow together and brainstorm and learn each other. They're going to be more advocates for one another when they know each other.

Tony Martignetti
Or even less formal, just occasional lunches together.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
And it doesn't have to be the whole team. It could be lunches one-on-one, you know, go to lunch with somebody you haven't before. A team goes to lunch, the other team goes to lunch, you know, So you get to know, get to know your folks like you're saying, you know, what motivates you, who's a single parent, who's a caregiver.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Yes. And I'm big on teams getting together because of cross-pollination, because now I'm getting people to share insight with each other who aren't a part of that team that can give us a perspective that's very different, even though we're part of this organization. So what does it mean to start doing this cross-pollination? I even have seen teams, and I encourage this, Don't have a space where people can talk about work. Have a no-work zone. So maybe in the break room, it's— you can't even say anything about the job. We're gonna talk about each other. Or the water cooler, it's a no-work zone, and people have to use that to get to know each other.

Tony Martignetti
Wow. All right, relational leadership, better governance. Excellent. Froswá, thank you.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Thank you.

Tony Martignetti
You got, uh, you got some really sound advice. Thank you. That's it. What more can I say? Froswá Booker-Drew. You'll find her at drfroswabooker.com and, uh, and on LinkedIn. I hope you'll connect with me on LinkedIn if I send you an invitation. You're not gonna turn me down, like Relational leadership. How could you turn me down? No. Rejected. Rejected. No, you would never. Okay. I know. All right. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom. It's excellent. Thank you.

Froswá Booker-Drew
Thank you for having me.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, HR for non-HR professionals. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, Find it at tonymartignetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show's social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Go out and be great.