A Conversation With Art Taylor

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Last week we promised a return to our 25 NTC coverage this week. It's not happening, and I blame the associate producer. On another topic, this is show number 745. That means we are 5 weeks away from the preeminent 15th anniversary and 750th show. Stand by, 5 weeks to go. Oh, I am glad you're with us. I'd be hit with auricular hypertrichosis if I had to hear the hairy idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate with what's up this week.

Kate Martignetti
Hey Tony, we've got a conversation with Art Taylor. He's the recently appointed president and CEO of AFP, The Association of Fundraising Professionals, so we're on hiatus from our 25 NTC interviews for one more week. It's not my fault, blame the podfather who writes my script each week. Art explains the value of AFP in our community, including enforcing professional ethics, reflects on our challenges and how to advocate for our sector, shares his thoughts on fashion guided by his wardrobe stylist wife Yolanda, challenges us to improve donor participation, and urges us to take responsibility for our community's image and performance. On Tony's Take Two.

Tony Martignetti
Tales from the Gym, another Semper Fi moment.

Kate Martignetti
Here is A conversation with Art Taylor.

Tony Martignetti
It's a pleasure to welcome Herman Art Taylor back to Nonprofit Radio. Art is president and CEO of the Association of Fundraising Professionals, AFP. He had been president and CEO of the Better Business Bureau Wise Giving Alliance from 2001 To 2025 this year. At the Wise Giving Alliance, he co-authored the Overhead Myth Letters with the GuideStar and Charity Navigator CEOs. That was 2013 when Art was last on Nonprofit Radio with the 2 other CEOs. He's been a lecturer at Columbia University and adjunct faculty at the Indiana University Lilly School of Philanthropy. You'll find Art on LinkedIn, and AFP is at afpglobal.org. Welcome back, Art. It's good to see you.

Art Taylor
Tony, thank you for having me back. It's been a while, but obviously I've been following your, your amazing journey with this platform, and it's just been unbelievable that you could stick to something as long as you have.

Tony Martignetti
Well, thank you. We're coming up on our 15th anniversary, will be in July. 750 shows. But congratulations to you on being appointed president and CEO of the enormously wildly popular and important Association of Fundraising Professionals. I've been following you. Congratulations.

Art Taylor
Well, thank you, Tony. It's a great honor to serve the fundraising profession in this way at this point in my career. And it's obviously quite adjacent to what I've been doing over the last 24 years. So it's a great way to see how a person's career can come together and, in my opinion, fit pretty squarely within the bounds of what fundraisers are trying to do, both from a performance and an ethical standpoint.

Tony Martignetti
Obviously, a lot of people agree. Otherwise, you wouldn't be president and CEO.

Art Taylor
Apparently, right?

Tony Martignetti
They do. I didn't include in your bio, your law degree. You and I went to the same law school.

Art Taylor
Temple.

Tony Martignetti
Temple? The Beasley School. Now it's the Beasley School. I don't call it the Beasley School. That reminds me of Mrs. Beasley. Remember the little doll from that TV show with Sebastian Cabot, Family Affair?

Art Taylor
I do. I do.

Tony Martignetti
Remember Brian Keith and Sebastian Cabot? The little girl had a doll, Mrs. Beasley. So I don't call it the Beasley School. I think you left when I got— did you get your degree in 1989?

Art Taylor
'89, that's right.

Tony Martignetti
And did you go full-time or at night?

Art Taylor
No, I went in the evening. I worked at a nonprofit all day long as a CFO. And then at night I would go to classes and it was quite an experience.

Tony Martignetti
I started in 1989. So you graduated, but I always admired— I went full-time, but I always admired the evening students. Because I knew they were go-getters. You know, they didn't— they weren't— their jobs were demanding. And here they were, 4:30, 5 o'clock, 6 o'clock, walking up the steps at Temple Law School, and they're sitting in for another 2, 3 hours of class as I'm walking down the steps to go home to have some dinner and, you know, and start studying.

Art Taylor
Right.

Tony Martignetti
So, I always admired the evening students, just the ambition that it takes to get a law degree

Art Taylor
Yeah. Well, you know, when you start out, you don't really think about it that way. And then when you get in it, there's so many other people who are doing it, you just kind of go along with the stream of activity. You know, you're just kind of in it and it just becomes a part of your life. But it was challenging, also extremely rewarding, and got to meet some really fun and interesting people. Yeah. And learned a lot to carry with me, even though I never practiced law, believe it or not. It has helped me in enormously important ways, everything from how I think about a problem to understanding some of the legal ramifications of issues that we get into. Even policy, Tony, it, it helps you shape how you envision creating policy internally and externally. And risk management issues. Um, and also, you know, when I got in, the reason I wanted to go to law school was I was practicing as an accountant, and my thought was that accountants sort of account for what happened. You know, we sort of keep track of what happened, but lawyers kind of create these transactions, legal instruments, and make it, make it happen. Yeah. And I sort of felt like this would be a complete full circle way of growing in my career. And it did. It helped me quite a bit in that way, too.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. Law degree, very valuable.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Enormously. I only practiced for 2 years, but I agree with you. I find having the law degree enormously valuable in the way you attack problems, think about things. Yeah.

Art Taylor
Well, Tony, you know, the big difference today, though, is I think when I was going to law school, it may have cost me $3,000 a semester.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah.

Art Taylor
I don't think there's a place you can go for that price today.

Tony Martignetti
It's probably 200 times that now.

Art Taylor
Yeah, right. So,

Tony Martignetti
um, so let's talk generally about, uh, AFP, you know, just acquaint folks with the work of our Association of Fundraising Professionals.

Art Taylor
Right. So AFP has been around now for almost 70 years. And it is the, I think, most discussed organization focused on the fundraising profession. We have about 25,000 members who work in all aspects of the nonprofit field, both educational institutions, healthcare institutions, museums, nonprofit organizations, large and small. People both in Canada, in Mexico, and some sprinkled in other countries around the world. And so it's a pretty broad and wide membership, and people through all aspects of their career, from the beginning until even into retirement, remain members. And it's quite remarkable to know that people find our organization as valuable as they do. We're focused, though, primarily on helping our members do their work better, more effectively, but also ethics. We think it's really important that members do their work ethically because, as you know, if donors trust our people, our fundraisers, and even our organizations, they're going to give more. And so the ethical piece of this is really important. And we have a code of ethics that all of our members must sign off on before they become a member. And in cases where there are challenges to— that members notice to their code of ethics, we'll even adjudicate a case where a person can be sanctioned for violating the code of ethics. Oh. In fact, I was on the ethics committee before I joined AFP for about 8 years and would hear cases where a member accused another member of violating that code. And we would go through a process whereby a person was either determined to have violated or not violated that code.

Tony Martignetti
What are the common violations that you see? You saw?

Art Taylor
It can be any number of things. It can be someone stole another person's Uh, content. It could be someone was accused of getting paid on a commission basis, which we don't allow, a percentage basis, which we don't allow, or any number of other violations, Tony. And when they come, as I said, there's a committee, there's a group of us who would be assigned to hear that case, and we make a determination and a member will be sanctioned. Anything from— losing their membership for a year or permanently to not being able to participate in certain activities. We try to make the sanctions match what the offense was.

Tony Martignetti
I did not know that there's enforcement of the code of ethics. The code of ethics, I think, is widely known. I hope it is.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
I didn't know that there's an enforcement mechanism too.

Art Taylor
Yes, it's the AFP code. The AFP code. And we have the Ethics Committee that really does that. And it's an independent group from— well, the board of directors obviously sanctions it, but it doesn't participate in those cases. The Ethics Committee does all that work.

Tony Martignetti
Well, Art, the challenging times we're facing, you mentioned, you know, trust not only of fundraisers, but trust of nonprofits, the trust of the nonprofit community. Some individual nonprofits like Harvard and Columbia Universities and National Public Radio and the Corporation for Public Public Broadcasting and Planned Parenthood. So we're seeing it on a micro level, and we're also seeing it on a macro level.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Just last week or 2 weeks ago, no, I think it was 2 Wednesdays ago, there was this charade of a congressional committee hearing about how— it was called something like NGOs Gone Wild.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
You could tell, you know, it was objective. It was a very objective assessment of our nonprofit community. Not. You know, look, the Trump regime is challenging our sector badly. Months ago, Elon Musk called us a Ponzi scheme. And just a week and a half ago, when you and I are recording, there was this, I think, shameful committee hearing at the Department of, or the committee for the, in support of the Doge work. Yeah. What are, you know, what is AFP doing?

Art Taylor
Well, first of all, we've been trying to stay abreast of all of these activities and keep our members informed. And we have great government relations work that we are hearing from on a regular basis, both about the challenges but also about some of the opportunities. Right now, we're pretty focused on the this big, beautiful tax bill. And there are some opportunities within that, particularly for us to finally get a universal charitable deduction for all of everyone who files a tax return, regardless of whether you itemize. And that will be wonderful because we anticipate through studies that it could raise about $40 billion more in charitable donations. And so we've been really trying to get behind that to get legislators to support this. And it looks at this point like it has a good chance of passing with this bill. And, you know, we've also been trying to work to eliminate some of the more challenging provisions in this tax bill that could affect nonprofit organizations, such as extra taxes on foundations, which could obviously hurt— Yeah. You know, what nonprofits are able to get from those organizations and making sure that there's no provision to single out particular types of organizations to be penalized in ways that would make all of us in some ways vulnerable to that kind of attack. So we're paying obviously a lot of attention to that and trying to make sure that through our legislative processes, we were able to help.

Tony Martignetti
We had success in the House of Representatives where the provision that allowed the Secretary of the Treasury to unilaterally designate a charity as terrorist-supporting got stripped out.

Art Taylor
Yep.

Tony Martignetti
We need to keep that out. We don't want the Senate to add that back in. That's another talking point that I've been encouraging. But yes, the universal charitable deduction, that's outstanding. So non-itemizers can get— what is it? I think it's $150.

Art Taylor
Yeah. Individual deduction. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
$300 for a couple, right? That's valuable. But there is a lot that's bad in this bill for the sector. You know, these individual charities being attacked financially, we just don't know You know, I use the metaphor of a domino row. Like, those are the first 4 dominoes, the 4 I mentioned. Who's the 5th? Which is the 5th domino? Might it be your nonprofit is number 5 or number 6? Because we know what happens when the first 4 fall.

Art Taylor
Right.

Tony Martignetti
So, so we have— so AFP has— I'm sure you have government affairs, government affairs, either contractors or employees.

Art Taylor
Yep. And our contractors are also similar to contracting with other similar organizations and who are making sure that we're all informed. So what you're experiencing with this work is a concerted effort. It's not just AFP, but we're joining forces with other organizations through our legislative support. to make sure that many organizations are a part of what's happening here and are also being formed and weighing in where necessary.

Tony Martignetti
Does that include working with the National Council of Nonprofits?

Art Taylor
Absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
With Diane Yentl, she— it does. Yeah. She was the sole positive voice at that committee hearing.

Art Taylor
Yeah. It was awful. It was awful the way she was treated.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, she was personally attacked.

Art Taylor
Yeah, it was awful. And, um, you know, I think that, uh, I actually thank God for her courage and for her commitment to this work. And, um, you know, all of us in the nonprofit sector owe her a tremendous debt of gratitude for what she's been willing to go through. Not willing, but she's doing it because she knows she's It's what she does. It's the kind of person that she is. And I can't thank her enough on behalf of our organization and many others who may never come in contact with her for her commitment and strength and her willingness to stand up for all of us.

Tony Martignetti
Does AFP have any lawsuits Against the regime?

Art Taylor
We don't. We don't have any lawsuits as of now, no.

Tony Martignetti
But supporting the National Council lawsuits? We're supporting. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What can you encourage folks to do on an individual level?

Art Taylor
Well, you know, we're having our virtual Hill Day this week. And so we've asked our members to reach out to their congressional delegations to talk to them about the importance of some of the issues that we're talking about right now and to be supportive of the great work that the nonprofit sector does. I think most people kind of understand, but, you know, we aren't great in our sector at talking about ourselves. And it's understandable, I guess. We don't spend a lot of money marketing our work. We just go out and do it. And so what you have are people who don't quite connect that some of the good things are happening, are happening because of nonprofit organizations. And some people don't even understand that the service they received was through a nonprofit organization. Mm-hmm. And so we've got to do a better job of telling our stories. But we're asking our congressional delegations to be supportive of the great work that nonprofits are doing in their districts and in their states. And to look at, look for ways to assure that the field is such that we can continue to do this important work and uphold our democracy.

Tony Martignetti
You know what I fear, Art, is that we'll get the universal charitable deduction at some level. Maybe it doesn't really matter. Let's say it stays at $150 per person, $300 per couple. We'll get that. But We won't get the attacks against the sector removed from the bill, both on the micro level, those 4 or 5 I mentioned, and on the macro level in terms of USAID, State Department funding, you know, so like they'll throw us a bone with the deduction, but end up hurting the sector very badly and the image of the sector.

Art Taylor
Yeah. Well, I worry about that too, because a Along with the money comes the vote of confidence, right? I mean, when government says, we think that there should be a robust and free nonprofit sector, it's basically saying to its citizens, this is good for us. And when government attacks it and fights it, you know, people get a very different impression of what we're doing. However, with that, I'll say, That regardless of what happens, you will always have nonprofits. People will fight, people will struggle, people are going to support each other because it's the human instinct to be supportive and helpful to each other. What we have to do, I think, Tony, is make sure that our Congress and our, our senators understand the extent to which we're under attack. We're not sure that they all do. Right. We're not sure that every senator and every congressperson has focused on these issues. And we've got to make sure in our own organizations and organizations from people who are hearing this, hearing this show, that you make outreach to those people in your, in your area to make sure they understand that we're under attack, that these are real policies and potential laws that are going to be enacted. that could have a deleterious effect on what we're able to do locally in our communities. It's really important that you not take for granted that they already get it. They don't get it in every case. We have to get out there in front of them and make sure that they do. And, you know, I know that there's some fear that people have right now of being critical of what's going on, but I would hope that we could get beyond some of that fear And at least tell the story. I mean, we don't have to be particularly critical. We can just say, you know, in our organization, because of the resources we get, people get fed. Or because of our organization, people who can't get to their cancer treatments are able to get there. Or because of our organization, you know, people who are depending on being— having free access to their religion can actually do that. Because of our services, You know, we have music for kids who are trying to learn how to play instruments and they don't get that in school. And because of our organization, kids can get college educations and community colleges can thrive so that kids who are trying to get the best value out of education can do that through a community college. Kids can get student loans. And let's talk about that. How many people can go to college today without some type of student loan? And these could potentially be under attack too. So let's not assume that every congressperson understands the value in what we do, and we need to get out there and make sure that they do.

Tony Martignetti
Because there are so many constituencies that are hurt by this big, bad, burdensome budget bill. Medicare, Medicare, Medicare, Yeah, the potential Medicare cuts, potential Social Security cuts. So there are so many, and other things, there's so many constituencies. We need to make sure our voice gets heard. And you're right that it should be directed to the levers of power. Sometimes I get concerned that we share each other's posts on LinkedIn, but that's just, that's our echo chamber. Everybody we're connected to on LinkedIn is already aware of the problem. Exactly. Your LinkedIn connections are your, Are your nonprofit colleagues. We're all in the community together. But beyond our echo chamber, to the levers of power, and to the extent it's possible, to the public too.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Because our image is being badly— not worse than just tarnished, it's being badly destroyed by the words in Congress and from the executive.

Art Taylor
Yeah. And I can't believe that most congresspeople want to hurt nonprofits. Many of them are parts of nonprofits themselves. You know, many of them were able to get elected because of their service in nonprofits.

Tony Martignetti
Mm-hmm.

Art Taylor
You know, they became popular because of the good they were doing in their communities through those nonprofit organizations. So, you know, let's just be real here. Let's be real. I mean, if you're a congressperson or even a senator, there's a nonprofit in your community that you've been connected to. Are you really willing to stand back and let that organization suffer for no reason? And that's basically what we're talking about here. Someone decided that it's time to hurt nonprofit organizations or to make them operate in a way that we want to see them operate instead of giving them the freedom to operate in a way that they can best serve people? And are you willing to just stand around and let that happen? And that's just kind of where it is. It's really that basic. It's not anything more than that, in my opinion. And we have to hopefully, with all energies and our concerted efforts, help them appreciate that They're connected to these organizations too. And if you're really about delivering constituent services, how are you going to do it if you're not— you doing it through government because you're cutting all the government services out and nonprofits, which have been great partners with government in delivering services to constituencies in every state?

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. I've got another Tales from the Gym. This one is, uh, and a, another Semper Fi moment. 2 Marines meeting in the gym. Uh, our last Semper Fi moment was, uh, back in March. Uh, it was actually the March 31st show. 2 Marines met then. 2 Marines met this time. One of them is the same, Rob. I'm not sure I knew Rob's name at the time. I actually, I think I did. The other guy couldn't get his name in because Rob was a little chatty, chatty former Marine. And I don't— I did not catch the name of this second Marine this time either. But what I just admire is the way these guys have this love of the Marines and this camaraderie years after. Yeah. Having served, and you know they didn't know each other. They didn't work together in the Marines. But these you know former Marines, they they come together and they just they bond over their acronyms, Marcom and whatever. You know I didn't I didn't catch as much of this conversation as I did the the one back in in March. But it's you know it's two Marines. It's just it's just very clear. And and they always end. They end the conversation, you know, they don't say goodbye. Goodbye is— or take care. That's not the last word. The last word is Semper Fi. And then, and then they part. So it's admirable, really. I'm not mocking it at all. It's just, it's a strong bond among former Marines who never served together. They just have that common— Bond. Marine Corps bond between them. So, Semper Fi. That is— no, I'm not qualified. I can't say Semper Fi. I was not a Marine. I was in the Air Force. We didn't have any mottos. We just, I don't know, we were like the sissy boys of the military. I don't know. That seems to be the stereotype anyway. It's not true. We were not sissy boys, but that seems to be the stereotype that's out there among Among the, uh, the more highly testosterone-laden, uh, Army and Marine Corps and Navy seems to be the misguided stereotype. So I won't say Semper Fi. I'll just say that is Tony's Take 2. Kate?

Kate Martignetti
You didn't have like a motto? You didn't even have like a goodbye or anything you can remember?

Tony Martignetti
No, there's no secret handshake, no motto, no— I mean, there was codes of conduct, of course, but nothing, nothing like the Marines have Semper Fi. We didn't have anything like that.

Kate Martignetti
We

Tony Martignetti
were just the sissy boys. I don't know, sissy boys.

Kate Martignetti
I've never heard of that.

Tony Martignetti
Uh, you weren't in the military. Uh, I don't know. I mean, you don't, you don't hear it among the Air Force, so we don't— we didn't call each other that. But once since I've been out through the decades that I've been out of the Air Force since 1989, I've, I've heard that, uh, the other branches of the military think that Air Force personnel are the sissies.

Kate Martignetti
Oh, wow. Well, we've got beaucoup buttloads more time. Here's the rest of A Conversation with Art Taylor, with Art Taylor.

Tony Martignetti
Going back to LinkedIn, you posted about a month ago on LinkedIn something personal. You posted a brief bio. You told us that you're a citizen of the United States and where you were born, your parents, who your parents were, and that you have a birth certificate and a passport. What motivated that?

Art Taylor
Obviously, you know, we're in an environment right now where people are being detained for many cases, no reason. We have concern now that even people with legitimate documents are being swept up and taken away. And I just wanted to bring some attention to this issue. And people have interpreted my LinkedIn post in many different ways. Some people have pointed out that by doing this, I might have normalized the behavior, right? I mean, oh, so now everybody has to let the world know that they have documents? What about the people who don't have documents? Are you basically saying they should go? And I understand that. Yeah. And that wasn't my intention, but I think it's important to bring attention to this issue. I wanted to make sure that, you know, my wife and I talk about this from time to time. She says, well, what if you go overseas? Are you going to be able to get back in the country? I said, well, maybe I should let people know. At the time, you know, there were people who were being detained for no reason. And I said, well, If I make a public statement, at least the world will know that I am indeed a U.S. citizen because I put my bona fides on a social media platform, if that's what they're looking for. You know, for some reason you say I don't have a passport. When I get to you, I actually do have a passport and you can check it out and the world knows that I have a passport. So. there's some protection in just people knowing. But the main thing was to really bring attention to this issue. You know, I, I'm not a person to, um, to really, um, express what our immigration policy should be here in this country. But what I do know is, um, throughout the existence of this country, people have come from other places and have contributed mightily to what we're able to do as a nation. In fact, I would argue that we would not even be America if it weren't for the energies, the enterprising nature of people who come from other places, combined with the talents and skills and willingness to work together of people who are already here. And then we have a large, obvious gathering or not gathering. We have a large population of people who are indigenous to this country who deserve our respect and appreciation and reverence, really, for laying the foundation for what later became this country. And we can never forget them, too. So in my mind, people are people. They want to create opportunities. So that they can thrive in our society and so that people who get here at one stage can move up through our, our society and become more economically viable and educationally successful and, and good lives for their generations after them. That's what America is all about. And it just hurts me when I see that we're looking at ways of of curtailing that or limiting that. Now, I understand, you know, we want to make sure people come here legally. I get that. And we want to make sure that people are given the right vetting so that the right people are coming here. But I think the idea of just saying, you know, you look a certain way or you may have had a history of being in a certain country, And therefore you should be gone. I don't quite understand that. And so, you know, that's just my personal opinion. That's certainly not AFP's, you know, position. I'm speaking about how I see things. And so I don't necessarily go along with that. A lot of people would disagree. You know, everyone has the right to their own opinion on this. But I feel that the people that I've interacted with from other countries have for the most part been hardworking, uprising, and looking for opportunities to grow and help our country thrive. And they should be given that opportunity as far as I'm concerned.

Tony Martignetti
I was in New York City just last week, and I intentionally took a ride on the Staten Island Ferry so that I could go by the Statue of Liberty. I wanted to see it, and you see it both ways on the ferry to and from Staten Island. And it struck me in a different way than it has in the past. Hmm. I took it for granted in the past when I would ride the ferry or see the Statue of Liberty. Sometimes you see it from an airplane as you're going in, especially going into LaGuardia. It took on a different meaning, or it took on a greater meaning because the liberty that it represented for for millions of immigrants is in question.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
We've got a regime that is, and I intentionally call it a regime. I don't think it deserves to be called an administration. That's me, that's Tony Martignetti. I don't think it deserves the imprimatur or the respect of an administration. So there are elements, people in the elements, there are individuals in the regime who wanna make this a more white country. They're all for the First Amendment and the Second Amendment and due process for the right-colored people, the white folks. And everybody else is a little suspect to these people in the senior levels of the regime. Yeah. And so the Statue of Liberty, It means something. And then I also thought of it at a different level as a gift. That was a true gift to the nation. I don't believe that the Qatari jet is a gift to the nation. Hmm. But that was a secondary, that was beneath my first thoughts of just what that statue represents for millions of people. And it's What it represents and, and what it claims. You know, give us your tired, your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses. It doesn't say anything about what skin color they are, what country they come from, what their work visa status is, what, what they can contribute. Where they— you come and you become an American, and, and that's under threat.

Art Taylor
Yeah, well, um, you know, the racial thing has always been, um, Just a scourge on our country, I think.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Art Taylor
Because the bottom line here is that we need everyone to be productive and vital in delivering the best that they have to offer to the development of our country. And so it just doesn't make sense for us to say, you know, here's a category of people that we're just going to relegate to the, the bottom of our society because of how they look. It makes absolutely no sense. It's never made any sense. And obviously, people of various racial backgrounds have contributed mightily to the success of the country. And, you know, where we are today, it seems that We, those of us who have been discriminated against in the past because of racial, because of racial issues, you know, we now, we fought for integration into our society. We had to fight for that integration. And we were getting closer to full integration. And now it seems that The people who didn't want to see that happen or people who fought against that are basically saying, you were never discriminated against to begin with. And so you should just go back to being the way you were. And, you know, it's interesting because there's some people who are now saying, fine, if you don't want us to go to your restaurants or if you don't want us to participate in your businesses, We'll do our own thing. And so we start doing that. And then, you know, the question comes up, well, wait a minute, you're discriminating against us.

Tony Martignetti
You're discriminating. You're canceling me. My restaurant is canceled.

Art Taylor
Yeah, fine. If you don't want me to go, then I won't go. But, but now if we create our own, now we're discriminated against you. So it's, it's kind of a weird dynamic. I mean, we, we can't be integrated. But if we try to do our own thing, then, then we're not being fair to, to to others. So it's, it's really strange, Tony. I mean, what are we supposed to do, right? Really weird.

Tony Martignetti
Well, what we, what we need to do is push back at this point against the, the budget bill that's now in the Senate. It'll certainly go back to the House because the Senate will make changes. And we need to influence those changes.

Art Taylor
Yeah,

Tony Martignetti
you mentioned on a little lighter subject, uh, your wife, your wife, uh, Yolanda. Yeah, she's a wardrobe stylist. That's how it is. That's why you're always styling. I see you in black. I love your black turtleneck. You're great with black, black turtlenecks. You must have drawers of turtlenecks. Um,

Art Taylor
yeah,

Tony Martignetti
yeah, she's a wardrobe stylist. I love that. Talk, talk a little about your, your wife Yolanda.

Art Taylor
Oh, Yolanda is unbelievable. You know, my wife worked 37 Well, 30 to 31 years as a flight attendant for Delta Airlines. And when COVID hit, it was clear that it was time for her to retire. And so she'd always been styling women just as a courtesy. You know, she'd see how people were dressed, or they would come to her and say, hey, what do you think of what I'm thinking about wearing? And she would give them ideas. Wow. But when COVID hit, she said, you know, maybe I'll do this full-time as a business. And so she started at The Style Table. And it's been a remarkable journey for her. She has gotten so many interesting clients. She was featured on the Today Show. She's been on local TV here in DC. Yeah. Because of the work that she's doing. And her whole orientation is to try to make women feel great about themselves and to be confident with what they're wearing so that they can be confident in their lives. See, for many people, clothing is either a stressor or it's something that gives them great confidence. And And if your clothing isn't— if your closet isn't organized well, it's a stressor because you're now thinking about, what do I put together? Where do I find it? And so she will help women get their clothing in order and then help them find the many outfits that they already have in their closets. Data says that something like 20% of the clothes we have is what we wear. So 80% we just have sitting there. And when she goes in to do what's known as a closet edit, it's a whole psychological thing that women are going through. Why do you have that? I don't know. Well, you know why. Tell me. Well, I was with so-and-so and he bought it for me like 20 years ago and I can't— Well, where's so-and-so? He's gone. He's not even— Why are you holding on to that? And there are emotional reasons why people hold on to their clothes. She's working with them to help them get rid of those and help other people, get them to people who can re-love them, including donating some of those clothes. And she's also very big on environmental issues where, you know, fast fashion can be a problem for our environment. And so—

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Art Taylor
She tries to get people to use, you know, more classic items that they can repeat and rematch and remix. But it's an amazing process that she goes through with her clients. And they love her. I mean, I know I'm talking about my wife, but these women actually love her for what they've done for her. And so I appreciate you letting me talk about her because I could talk about her the whole show.

Tony Martignetti
Of course. At the Style— her business is At the Style Table.

Art Taylor
At the Style Table, right.

Tony Martignetti
Her advice about classic pieces strikes me because that's what my mother always used to recommend. Get— buy basic classic pieces that will last. Yeah, whether it's jewelry or foundational wardrobe pieces, um, and buy good quality, and you'll get a decade or more of use, decades, uh, from them. Um, and, and they, and they're very likely, you know, not going to go out of fashion.

Art Taylor
Um, that's right.

Tony Martignetti
So, so she helps you. Does she help you? Does she— she—

Art Taylor
She tries, but I'm probably her toughest. Yeah, I'm probably her toughest customer.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah.

Art Taylor
But I've been trying to be a bit more open to her style. So my problem, Tony, is when I grew up, I didn't have any money. But there were people in our neighborhood who sewed, and they would always look great. So they'd get fabric and they'd make their own clothes. But I didn't know how to do any of that. You know, I was an athlete and had no money. And so what happens is you realize that you can't compete in that field with some of your classmates. So you just kind of let it go.

Tony Martignetti
Just surrender.

Art Taylor
Surrender. No, I'm not in. I can't take any pride from that.

Tony Martignetti
Jeans and a t-shirt will just do every day. And I'll wear a different t-shirt. But yeah, all right.

Art Taylor
And then you kind of grow up thinking that, OK, I have to do other things. So that people will overlook how poorly I'm dressed. I

Tony Martignetti
need to overcome. What was your sport or sports?

Art Taylor
Oh, I played baseball and basketball in high school and college. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Where'd you go to college?

Art Taylor
Franklin and Marshall.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Yeah.

Art Taylor
All right. F&M. Yeah. So it was, you know, it was one of those things where, you know, I just can't compete. And then when I was old enough to maybe have some decent clothes. I just never thought about it. And I would just do maybe the minimum, you know, and never really thought about how the way I dress can influence how people perceive me. And it's true, you know.

Tony Martignetti
That first impression, right?

Art Taylor
The first impression.

Tony Martignetti
Before, before there's a word out of your mouth, before there's a hand extended to shake.

Art Taylor
Yep. Yep.

Tony Martignetti
You, you look like You look like something. People are looking at what you look like.

Art Taylor
Absolutely. So, you know, I'm trying to get better at it.

Tony Martignetti
Okay.

Art Taylor
And she's a real assist. I tell people, do not judge my wife based on how I'm dressed. Believe me, she's a lot better than what you see dressed in me.

Tony Martignetti
You get a lot of perks being married to Yolanda, with the travel perks from 31 years with Delta.

Art Taylor
That's right.

Tony Martignetti
Travel perks. And now wardrobe, in-house Wardrobe advice.

Art Taylor
She's, uh, and, and I could— that's only the beginning, you know. She says I married her for flight benefits, but I tell her, no, no, no, there's so much more. My wife is a person who just loves people. She always has a project that she's working on, and the project is a human being. Uh, a day doesn't go by where she's telling— not telling me a story about someone she's trying to help who's in a tough spot right now. And sometimes there are people that she barely knows. You know, when I was at the Wise Giving Alliance, we'd have this debate back and forth about whether she should be giving money to people on the street. Because at WGA, you know, we're always saying you should give thoughtfully and you should give obviously based on the heart too. But I would say to her, so every person we pass, you're giving money to, is that— Yeah. the wise thing to do. She says, I don't care about whether it's wise. It's what I think I need to be doing to go to heaven. And, you know, God has been good to me. So if someone needs a few dollars and I have it, I'm going to give it to them. And I don't care what they do with it at that point. I hope they do something good with it. But if they don't, you know, that's kind of on them. So that's, that's kind of how she is. She's just, um, A very special individual that, um, I have been very fortunate to have come across and have in my life and to be married to.

Tony Martignetti
Well, give her, give her our regards from—

Art Taylor
Thank you.

Tony Martignetti
Nonprofit Radio.

Art Taylor
I certainly will.

Tony Martignetti
You're not a lost cause. Tell her, don't give up. Don't, don't give up on Art. You can go to heaven. You can go to heaven if you help Art. Keep, keep helping your husband. All right. So, you know, we— going back to the challenges that the sector is facing, we did have that big win in the House of Representatives where that burdensome provision got removed. And from what I read, it's not likely to come back, but we still have to be vigilant about it. Yeah. But, you know, so building on that success, you know, our voice makes a difference. That didn't just happen because The House of Representatives, you know, your members of Congress thought, oh, that, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Yeah. They didn't even know about that provision in this enormous 900-page bill or so, or 1,500-page bill, whatever it is.

Art Taylor
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
They didn't even know that that provision was in there until we in the charitable sector brought it to their attention and got it removed.

Art Taylor
Yeah, absolutely.

Tony Martignetti
So our voices do make a difference. We're not going to win every time. We're not, but we can win some.

Art Taylor
We can win some.

Tony Martignetti
So leave us with that encouragement, please.

Art Taylor
Yeah, I will. But I'm also going to suggest that we have other issues aside from government that we need to begin focusing on, one of which is the massive decline in donor participation that you may have been tracking. If you border off 2018 and go back 20 years, we were giving at— 66% of families were giving to nonprofit organizations. By 2018, it'd gone down to 49.5%, and that number continues to go down. So we have a big problem, I think, in donor participation. And why is that important aside from the money? Well, those everyday donors give nonprofits the freedom that they need to do the kind of work that only they can do in their communities without the extra stress that could come from large donors pushing these organizations to do work a certain way. It also gives them the ability to operate independently of, of Um, programs. So a lot of times you get a large grant and that program money doesn't cover the administrative costs, and organizations must have freedom to operate administratively, right, to run a good organization. So, um, what's happening, you know, the Generosity Commission released a report, um, telling us some ideas that we could begin focusing on. I was co-chair along with Um, uh, my colleague from the Kauffman Foundation, John, um, gosh, I'm blanking on John's name. He's going to kill me for that. But we, we co-chaired the Government Relations and Policy Task Force for the Generosity Commission, and as a result of that, we were asked to share ideas for what we could do to strengthen everyday donor giving and participation. And lo and behold, there were some things that we found that we could do with government. Many of the things that we're trying to do now, increase the universal tax deduction for people, but a lot of them were cultural, meaning that there's something going on in our culture right now. Right. that drives people who are generous to give to things other than institutions or nonprofit organizations.

Tony Martignetti
Mm-hmm.

Art Taylor
And we're very concerned about that. It could be just a general lack of trust in institutions that are driving people not to give to nonprofits. It could be a different orientation toward giving than we've seen in past decades. Or generations where people don't feel like giving to an organization is the right thing to do, or they maybe come from places where government does a lot more and it's odd to be giving to an independent organization. It could be that younger people are feeling they don't have money to give right now because they have student loans and they have families that are needing their money and they're not making as much as they need to make to make ends meet. It could also be that, you know, Tony, remember when, when you and I were starting out, we'd go to work and there was this campaign that the United Way would launch or other organizations would launch in a workplace, and someone would come around with a pledge card and say, hey, here's a pledge card. We need you to give $5 out of your paycheck every week so that our company can compete with all the other companies in our city. Right. to see who's the most generous from our employees. That's hardly done anymore. But that was an engine for massive amounts of small donations. Same is true with the Combined Federal Campaign, which is just a fraction of what it is, of what it was, you know, today.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, for federal workers. For federal workers. And then layer on the current attacks against the sector.

Art Taylor
Right, right.

Tony Martignetti
Hurting our image and therefore our Our likelihood of getting donations.

Art Taylor
Right. And then, you know, the fundraising profession has done what it does, right? It looks at, well, where can we expect to get the most money with the least amount of resources? And that happens to be large donors. But of course, during this time, we've seen a separation between the middle class and the really wealthy, right? The wealthy have gotten far more wealthier than people have entered the middle class. And so fundraisers are saying, well, that's where the money is, so let's begin going after those folk. And so more campaigns are geared to getting large gifts than they are, you know, direct response kinds of campaigns. And then if you add the religious aspect, people aren't attending religious services as much, which was also a place where large amounts of small donations were gathered. So there's some things going on in our sector that we've got to come to reckoning with. Right. If we're going to continue to see our democracy thrive. Because we also know, Tony, that when people give, they also participate in civil society at a much higher rate than when they don't. So voting, going to school board meetings, participating in community rallies or community town halls, all of these things are— Yeah. Highly more likely to be engaged in if people donate to nonprofit organizations. So we're going to see some— we're going to see a shift in how America operates. And if you add on to that what we're seeing right now, you can see some real challenges as we move forward. So while we are talking about the challenges that government is putting on us right now, We also have to begin to think about what we're doing in our own society outside of government that could be keeping everyday people from giving to our organizations. We have to find ways to address that. And there's some good news too. I mean, we do know that people are generous. And we see days like activities like Giving Tuesday where large amounts are collected via digital platforms, which is fantastic, right? And we just need to amplify those efforts and find other ways, maybe through culture, maybe people who we respect. If we don't respect our politicians, maybe respect our athletes and entertainers. And maybe there's a way for them to help normalize and make giving fun and exciting and the right thing to do if you're part of our country, maybe they can help influence what we're able to do and that— and make it something that people see as important, giving to institutions again. You know, one last thing on this, Tony, and I know I'm going on and on, but, you know, I have a sense that with all of the activism that we've seen in our society, designed to point out the problems associated with institutions that we've also begun to think that, well, maybe these institutions just should go away, or maybe they're not important anymore. And that's, I think, sad because while you can point out flaws in institutions, flaws that probably always existed, by the way, Right. Just today we see them more because we have more ways of being— of creating transparency in these institutions, right? We see more things now. But these things always existed. It's not that organizations, in my opinion, suddenly got worse. In fact, they may be better now than they were. In fact, I know they're better now than they were. But what we see now can be troubling. Right. And it's the flaws that get amplified, right? And so people look at these things and they say, I'm not going to give to that. I'm not going to be a part of that. Then what are you going to do? When you tear something down, what are you going to replace it with? You can't get real work done outside of some kind of institution. Some kind of organized effort is how things get done. So while we're critical, and I certainly encourage criticism, I also want us to think about, well, what are we going to do once we finish criticizing the thing? Once we get done complaining and once our voices are heard, what do we do? Because we have to fill that vacuum with something that's actually going to solve the problem. Tearing down doesn't solve a problem. It just ends what was ever causing harm, but it doesn't solve the problem. And we need to make sure that we're supporting things. Yeah. that actually can solve the problem too. And so that's my encouragement to people. I love that people are activists. I love activism. But we also have to think about how we form solutions. And it's not just by tearing down.

Tony Martignetti
Herman Art Taylor, president and CEO of the Association of Fundraising Professionals. You'll find Art on LinkedIn. AFP is at afpglobal.org. And Art, I thank you very much for sharing everything. Thank you.

Art Taylor
Tony, I really love that you've done this for so many years. You've made such a huge difference to so many people doing this. And I'm just honored that you'd have me come back on the show.

Tony Martignetti
Well, thank you for being a guest and thank you again for sharing.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, let's really and truly get back to our 25 NTC coverage with Tech to Amplify Youth Voices and Donor Diversity.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, you said that last week too.

Kate Martignetti
If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, find it at tonymartignetti.com. I hope we can trust you going forward.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti, the one and only. The show's social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 99%. Go out and be great. Go out and be great.