Brand Your Giving Programs & Donor Retention

Tony Martignetti
Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I'm your aptly named host, and I'm the podfather of your favorite hebdomadal podcast. Oh, I'm glad you're with us. I'd suffer the embarrassment of hydropoiesis if you made me sweat with the idea that you missed this week's show. Here's our associate producer Kate with what's on the menu.

Kate Martignetti
Hey Tony, I hope our listeners are hungry for Brand Your Giving Programs. Farra Trompeter returns with Ishmam Rahman to share their advice around applying brand strategies to your monthly mid-level, and planned giving programs. You'll build connections between your programs and improve outcomes. Farra is with Big Duck, and Ishmam is from International Rescue Committee. This continues our coverage of the 2026 Nonprofit Technology Conference. Then, donor retention. If you want to retain your donors, Engage them and be strategic about it. You may face some roadblocks at your nonprofit, and you'll want to be familiar with the fundraising DISC model. You also need to know the metrics that'll tell you how you're doing. Jen Newmeyer has you covered. She's at PBS. This is also from 26 NTC. On Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Number 5 in the top 60.

Kate Martignetti
Here is Brand Your Giving Programs.

Tony Martignetti
Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio coverage of 26NTC, the 2026 Nonprofit Technology Conference. All these smart folks are convened in Detroit, and our coverage continues with Farra Trompeter, who is co-director and worker-owner at Big Duck, and also Ishmam Rahman, who is Director of Audience and Donor Strategy at International Rescue Committee. Farra, Ishmam, welcome to Nonprofit Radio.

Farra Trompeter
Thanks for having us, Tony.

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah, thanks for having us.

Tony Martignetti
Pleasure, absolutely. Your topic is branding your giving programs to attract, retain, and upgrade donors. Farra, could you give us a Kind of high-level view of the topic before we dive in?

Farra Trompeter
Sure. So lots of organizations have individual giving programs for monthly giving, for mid-level giving, for legacy or planned giving, for major giving. And many of them may not even brand those programs. They may just be how they segment their donors in their database. But some organizations, you see it particularly with monthly giving and legacy, do have a name like the XYZ Society or whatever the name of the group is. What we did in partnership with the International Rescue Committee was look at all their different giving programs and determine if there could be an overall sub-brand for being part of one of these donors to the International Rescue Committee, as well as having names of the individual programs, names and messaging and visuals that had a connection to each other to build a community among the donors and deepen their connection to the mission, as well as to look for opportunities for them to not only stay in these programs, but potentially upgrade into others. And in particular with the IRC, we focus on their Sustainer program, their mid-level, and their Legacy program, which I know you're a big fan of planned giving and legacy giving.

Tony Martignetti
I know a little bit. You know a little bit about that. I know a little bit. All right, fantastic. Thank you. That's an ideal overview. It's interesting because, yeah, there are lots of branded programs, but You're sort of taking a comprehensive view, and you're also thinking of subgroups within. So Ishmam, what did— I guess I would say, what did individual giving branding look like at IRC before you started working with the worker owners at Big Duck, the Marxist socialists at Big Duck?

Ishmam Rahman
Big fan of the Marxist socialists at Big Duck, by the way. Yeah, I think IRC was structured in a very similar way to other organizations where many organizations have giving programs, but usually they're not connected to one another because they're started at different points in time. And so just like that, IRC had Rescue Partners, that was the sustainer program, and then Partners for Freedom, that was the planned giving program, and then the Compass Collective, that was the mid-level program. So you can just hear that The 3 of them don't really have a huge through line. They sound like completely 3 different programs. And so because 3 of the programs didn't have a lot of brand awareness, the leads of the programs came together and we had a discussion that this was actually a unique opportunity for us to rebrand all of them and create an ecosystem which would be moving it in a different direction than most other organizations were doing. And so we partnered with Big Duck then to do that. Some other organizations were doing that, so we also took that as an example and brought that over to the IRC.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, yeah, I've never, personally, never, yeah, I haven't had this topic. I've never thought of coordinating, you know, yeah, coordinating the branding across all the individual, all the individual giving programs. So how do we get started? Like, does this make sense, Farra, for like any organization? Or, I mean, you need to have individual donors first of all, right? So if you're purely, you know, revenue fee-for-services or purely government-funded, okay, that doesn't make sense. But you need to have individual giving or individual donors. And then where do you, you know, where do you take it from there? That's pretty high level.

Farra Trompeter
Yeah, I mean, I think you need to have groups of supporters. We're also working with an organization right now, not only looking at some of their giving programs, but we're seeing a trend also in organizations where they're making mini networks or groups of advisors, professional advisors who work with them particularly around DAF giving, as well as other ways that professional advisors are bringing supporters to organizations. So a few different nonprofits now have small groups or networks for those as well. So I think the idea of bringing a group of people together, creating an identity for it that makes sense for the people who belong to that, but also thinking about how do we create an identity that still ladders back and connects to the organizational identity. Because you don't want to create something that kind of people realize they're part of the XYZ, you know, society or group, but they don't realize even what that's for. It should always still be connected to that primary organizational brand. So you have to have donors. The question is, are there enough of them? Have you done some research to see, does belonging to something, connecting to something, does it make sense? And then do we need it to be its own brand, or should we just stick use the primary brand of the organization. So that was one of the questions we went through after Ishmam brought this project and was sort of raising the question. So the first phase was even just asking and considering the options. And then we went through the actual development of the names and the messages and the logos of it all.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. And then I guess I'm sort of jumping to the end, but I'm anxious to hear, Ishmam, what did the branding look like after the project?

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah, so we decided that actually the groups of donors, we often look at them in a very siloed way, but all of these donors actually are moving across each other, right? A lot of mid-level donors become planned giving donors. A lot of sustainers become planned giving donors. Your ideal donor is somebody who's a mid-level sustainer who's also a planned giving donor. So you want the donors to be aware of all the giving programs and what kind of perks or benefits they can get that helps them get closer to the mission or your organization. And so we decided we need to have one umbrella name. We called it Rescue Collective because we wanted this idea of community and the collective impact of a larger community come through. Because what a lot of our donors were saying was that, you know, I don't feel like my donation's making a difference. It's just a drop in the bucket, right? What IRC does is we work with refugees and displaced people Worldwide, and every year the number of displaced people keeps growing. And so our donors often feel like, well, what are we actually doing? And so we were trying to also kind of answer that question by making them feel like part of a bigger collective. And then under that sub-brand, we made sub-sub-brands, if you will. We called the mid-level donors leaders, we called the sustainers partners, and we called legacy donors changemakers. And so you can be a— Rescue Collective Leader, Rescue Collective Partner, Rescue Collective Changemaker.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. A lot of this is messaging, right? And not, not only as it gets created, but, you know, going forward. I mean, yeah, it's got to be explained. So what does it mean to be a member of the Rescue Collective? So nobody's, nobody's just a member of the Rescue Collective. You're either a leader, a changemaker, or a partner, right?

Farra Trompeter
Well, you could be more than one, and you are still a member of the collective. So you're a member of the Rescue Collective, but you are then also a Rescue Partner, Rescue Leader, Rescue Changemaker.

Tony Martignetti
Those are your subgroups. Exactly.

Farra Trompeter
And I mean, it's hard for us to fully explain it, but there is also a logo for Rescue Collective that connects to the International Rescue Committee logo, and then there's color designation for the 3 programs we named.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Okay. All right. So, and this is also supposed to help with Fluidity across?

Ishmam Rahman
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Right? I mean, the whole idea of individual giving is to upgrade folks from low-level sustainer to maybe mid-level sustainer to major givers. You didn't say— you said intermediate giving is what you call it at IRC. Like, you have sustainer, intermediate—

Ishmam Rahman
Well, sustainers can be converted into mid-level sustainers, and then mid-level donors can be converted into planned giving donors. But once they get to major gifts, there is no, like, group or name for major gifts because that sits on a different team. I think part of it is also internal as well as external. Like, yes, it is external messaging for donors, but also it helps our staff and our teams have these containers to help create conversion and upgrade journeys.

Tony Martignetti
How does it, how does it do that? How does this help?

Ishmam Rahman
So

Tony Martignetti
donor conversion?

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah. So an example is we are now upgrading more mid-level donors than ever from the Bridge Program. And the Bridge Program is a new program that we started that are for donors that are giving anywhere between $500 to $999. Mid-level starts at $1,000. And so for Bridge, we can now give them invitations to the Rescue Collective leaders. And if they say no to the Rescue Collective leaders, then we can give them a secondary ask being like, well, can you become a sustainer Rescue Collective partner? So I think it's really about being able to give, like, a very specific value proposition instead of an arbitrary number of, hey, give $1,000. What does that really mean? Whereas with Rescue Collective leaders and Rescue Collective— Right. collective partners, there's a specific mission attached to being part of that community. By giving at this level, you're enabling X, Y, and Z.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. It's interesting. You know, it's kind of hard to listen to and process because you all have been working on this for what, like a year or something? I don't know.

Farra Trompeter
We worked together, it was 2023 to 2024. So this now has been out and about for 2 years. Almost 2 years, and I want to make a pitch. I think it's rescue.org/collective.

Ishmam Rahman
It is.

Farra Trompeter
You can go and actually see what all this looks like and sounds like and the benefits for being part of the Rescue Collective globally as well as for each individual program.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, and, and that's a good shout-out because folks may want to see the visual identity that Big Duck is renowned for. Thank you.

Farra Trompeter
And also support—

Tony Martignetti
Lots of social workers there. They're all worker-owned. It's an owned— it's a collective, right?

Farra Trompeter
Yes, but it's not just about being— it's about trying to create a space where we are sharing power, we're sharing decision-making. We are still operating in a capitalist society, but we're trying to do it where we're leading with our values.

Tony Martignetti
Excellent.

Ishmam Rahman
I think it actually dovetails really nicely into the mission of Rescue Collective, because I think part of Rescue Collective is making donors feel like we are interdependent with one another. We can only change the world because we're interdependent, not because one group is saving the other. And so I think that's why also the collaboration and partnership with Big Duck made a lot of sense.

Tony Martignetti
Okay.

Farra Trompeter
Good segue. There we go.

Tony Martignetti
So I was saying that it's hard to process as hearing it for the first time, but I think there's value in that because it kind of emphasizes the, as you said, Ishmam, the internal as well as the external that I brought up and Farra talked about, the internal and external messaging. It's kind of a culture— I mean, it's a culture change.

Ishmam Rahman
We restructured our teams honestly because of the way we've structured our audiences. Our team looks completely different than it did 3 years ago, partly because we did launch Rescue Collective and now we have these containers and we have very clear lines on which staff member is in charge of which journeys across channels.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Maybe you could say a little more about that. Sure. How that— how the teams collaborate, how they share donors, presumably. I mean, obviously they are sharing. Yeah, say some more about that collaboration.

Ishmam Rahman
So pre-Rescue Collective, the mass markets team was structured in a very channel-led way where teams were on the email team, staff members were on the email team, SMS team, direct mail team. It wasn't really divided up into audience teams. But once we started having this conversation about Rescue Collective, we realized that if we are asking donors to go on this donor-led journey externally, we also need to be donor-led internally in our structure. And so then we completely shifted from channel-led to audience-led, where now we have a mid-level team, a sustainer team, a bridge team, a core standard donor team, a planned giving team, and now each of these teams work together on their shared goals rather than having these siloed channel targets, which don't actually work towards shared audience goals.

Tony Martignetti
And how do they actually share? Do they have prospect meetings? I don't know, weekly, biweekly? Yeah,

Ishmam Rahman
so it's a direct response program. We have around 250,000 mass market donors. And so all the audience leads live under my team, and we meet on a weekly basis on everything starting from strategy, tactics, mail plans, data pulls. And so we're constantly having the conversation about cross-pollination between our teams. We're always having conversation on not only how do you retain, but how are we converting between each teams and how are we upgrading. And all of the targets and goals are now set around that. It's no It's not just about keeping your donors in your own territory and seeing how well they do.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah.

Farra Trompeter
And I just want to chime in and say, you know, someone who's been doing fundraising for 30 years, what I love about that switch is again, we're orienting around the group of people who we are interdependently working with to advance our mission, as opposed to years ago I had a client that I was working with before I was at Big Duck at another agency where if we were raising money—

Tony Martignetti
You had a life before Big Duck?

Farra Trompeter
I know, it's hard to imagine. I've been at Big Duck, it's almost 19 years. But with that organization, if we raised money online, the direct mail program was getting really upset, like, you can't send an email to our donors because we're going to be sending out an appeal in 3 weeks. And I'm like, the donor doesn't care whose bottom line they're giving to. They want to give to the mission and they want to feel connected. So how do we actually communicate with them? And again, most programs now are omnichannel and they're not just—

Ishmam Rahman
Well, not most programs yet.

Farra Trompeter
There you go. Okay, just kidding.

Ishmam Rahman
I think programs are starting to transition, but I think there's a disconnect between the infrastructure that's there and what's possible in that current infrastructure and the infrastructure we need to move to. And I think that was like the struggle that we went through on our team, and it took us 3 years honestly to make that transition. But I've talked to multiple people today being like, how did you do this? And it's a really hard shift because it's a cultural shift. You have to talk to your finance team, your budgeting. You could budget in a completely different way because you budget by audience, not by channel.

Tony Martignetti
How about the naysayers to this culture change? I know they exist.

Farra Trompeter
And I want to just give— Ishmam is very good at internal change management.

Ishmam Rahman
I don't, I don't know about if I'm very good.

Farra Trompeter
Well, at least you took on the fight. There you go. You worked on it. All

Tony Martignetti
right, so how do you, uh, how do you overcome the naysayers? It's not going to work. It's going to be confusing.

Ishmam Rahman
So I think that the way we made it work was we started doing an omnichannel audience-led approach with mid-level first, and that was easier because mid-level audiences oftentimes have a higher ROI, so the risk appetite is higher even for finance. And so we went through this audience-led change. We saw that it increased retention rate by a lot. We saw revenue per donor jump, upgrades into major gifts jump. And so when we saw that, we took all those numbers and then presented to finance and leadership being like, can we now expand this to sustainers? We expanded it to Sustainers in year 2, did the same thing. It worked really well. And then we expanded it to Standard, then we expanded it to Bridge, and then we expanded it to Planned Giving Marketing. So it was definitely a shift, a phased shift, but that was part of getting that buy-in basically. So you can't do it all at once. It's going to take patience. But I think that's the way we got around it.

Farra Trompeter
I think another thing is seeing that other organizations were doing it. And so sometimes one way to get around that naysaying is being like, look, our donors, we know, also give to A, B, and C. And look at how A, B, and C are communicating, and we need to keep up with that, or we need to be part of that, because that's how now people are experiencing the world. And if we don't meet them where they are, they're going to stop paying attention to us.

Ishmam Rahman
Absolutely. And we took a look at, you know, MSF's program because they were kind of going that way before us. Orbis International. I came from the ACLU, and we were doing this at the ACLU before I came to the IRC, so I kind of brought that institutional knowledge. Planned Parenthood is also doing it. And so I think bringing in that peer organization information also helped build credibility.

Tony Martignetti
Interesting. Okay. So were you the genesis of this work at IRC, having come from ACLU?

Ishmam Rahman
I think so, partly, yes. And then I brought on team members that, you know, also really helped, you know, be catalysts for this work as well.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah. What else should we know about— well, maybe I can be a little more definitive than that. You talked about conducting research. Is that— was that preliminary research, or— I'm just going by your session description.

Farra Trompeter
Yeah, there were, there were 2 parts of it. One, we always like to start every project with research and really understanding why we should do something before just jumping right into it and making sure we're clear on the direction we should follow. So in this case, Ishmam can speak in a moment about all the research they had already done over the past few years that we were able to read, learn from, build on. And then we also did some interviews with some of these peer organizations to learn about their program, what worked, what didn't work, what we should know going into it, any advice they had. We met with some of the different programs to understand a little bit more about their donors. We were going to do a donor survey, a new donor survey, but we paused it because at the time we were doing this work was right around— The pandemic. when the war in Gaza started in 2023. So we wound up not doing a new survey. It wasn't the right time because IRC needed their donors to focus on some other things, but they had done other donor research that we were able to bring in, and Ishmam can talk about that.

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah, something that we also started doing even, you know, even before bringing on Big Duck is surveying our donors, which is why we realized we needed these giving programs to create these containers to actually move donors from one program to another. We did a lot of online surveying, and actually I'll shout out Sea Change Strategies, who we're continuing to work with. They're an agency that really focuses on qualitative and quantitative research with donors. We survey our donors every single month from the Rescue Collective, and that's actually part of one of the perks if you're part of it. It's basically saying, hey, we really care about your feedback because you're part of this community. Tell us how effective our messaging is. Tell us what you understand about our work. What do you want to hear more about? What questions do do you have? And so we had already started doing that on a quarterly basis before bringing Big Duck on, and all of those results we gave to Big Duck, which then Big Duck synthesized. And now we're doing it on a monthly basis.

Tony Martignetti
Did Big Duck use AI to synthesize that body of research?

Farra Trompeter
We used human intelligence, not artificial.

Tony Martignetti
Hi.

Farra Trompeter
Hi. We went hi. We kept it high. They went low.

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah, I feel like this was also before the big boom.

Farra Trompeter
It was. I mean, I mean, yeah. Even then though, we're not— I mean, we're using our brains. Humans are reading things and interpreting them and bringing them to conversation.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, cool. Ishmam, did you experience any donor confusion, like to a call center? Like, I don't understand whether I'm a changemaker or a pacer or a leader. I know pacer is not one of them. Partner. Partner, leader, changemaker. I did that on purpose. Was there any external confusion?

Ishmam Rahman
There was a little bit, but not actually as much because I think that was part of our rollout plan. We made sure it was super robust, really multichannel, really comprehensive, that it not only went out to people that are already in those communities, it also went out to prospective donors, which are the standard donors that are not yet sustainer, mid-level, or legacy giving. We talked to our supporter care teams and, you know, we gave them a run-through of this project. So we made sure that they felt confident about answering questions. For any telemarketing campaigns, we made sure all of our callers knew how to talk about it. More often than not, actually, we received more inquiries on like, how can I become a leader? And that actually led to conversations of, how can I volunteer? So that was really interesting. And actually, that we didn't really foresee. And so we didn't have that many FAQs set up for volunteer questions. And so that was— That's great. That's

Tony Martignetti
a learning. Okay.

Ishmam Rahman
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
I'll give you the parting words, Ishmam, because Farra opened. So, you know, why, why, what's the value here overall? You know, empower us, encourage us to consider this. Why? Why?

Ishmam Rahman
So first-year retention, multi-year retention, and overall retention rate for all All 3 groups have grown significantly since we launched this, and, you know, now we're in year 3 and we're continuing to see that growth. I think what we see is especially first-year retention rates are really impacted by this brand launch because donors, once they come into the program and once they come into the IRC, they immediately feel like they're part of something bigger.

Tony Martignetti
And we know the value of one year of first-year retention.

Ishmam Rahman
Exactly, especially because we're in emergency. Yeah, we're an emergency response organization. Our first-year retention rate for mid-level donors is 54% at the end of fiscal '25. It was, I believe, I might get the number wrong, but I think it was like maybe 50% or 48%. So it was already at a solid place, but the fact that we saw such a big increase, I think, I think was kind of amazing just because with all of the emergencies that's been happening over the last few years, we're getting more and more new donors, influx of donors that also don't really know that we do comprehensive work for refugees and displaced people. A lot of people think that we just do crisis response. And so I think that was a really great outcome. And lastly, I guess I'll close out by saying that doing this gives you an opportunity to really maximize lifetime value from every single one of your donors. Because now our donors know that they can make more of an impact by being a sustainer. They can make more of an impact by giving more than $1,000. They can make more of an impact by putting us in their will. And by doing that, they can learn more about us because we'll keep engaging them more and talking to them more. And so retention rate is up, revenue per donor is up, average gift is up. And so not only is this like a container for your staff and to have more seamless communications plans, but it's also Making a tangible difference in your fundraising KPIs.

Tony Martignetti
I said I would give you the last word, but I have to— I'm reneging on that. So to a newcomer to this subject, for a newcomer to this subject, why could you not have achieved— why do you feel you would not have achieved those outcomes with just proper messaging, you know, typical donor outreach? Moves Management. What, what, what is it about this that you think makes your outcomes better than would have been?

Ishmam Rahman
I think it's about communicating that donors have collective impact. They feel even better about their donation when they know it makes a collective impact because this is a huge community of people that's also giving at that level. And so I think they feel like they're making more of a difference. I think we see a lot of hopelessness from donors, and we survey donors every single month, and this is one of the biggest things we hear from them is that we feel really hopeless because of the state of the world, but I know that giving through the IRC and giving with all these people that also care, I'm making some kind of difference. And by putting it into this container, you don't have to explain that in so many words. It's just being explained by like 2 words, Rescue Collective.

Tony Martignetti
The Rescue Collective, yeah. Okay, okay. Not being a naysayer, but newcomer. All right.

Ishmam Rahman
No, totally understand. And I think we asked ourselves that question as well. And I think part of that was, you know, let's see what happens. Let's see what the KPIs look like after the first year. And if we don't see an increase, then we shouldn't put so many resources into it. And for some reason, Not for some reason. I mean, clearly, the community aspect did really resonate because that's lifting all boats.

Tony Martignetti
And you did it incrementally, as you explained.

Farra Trompeter
And I would just add, good branding is about using communications to build relationships that ultimately inspire action. And so, if you bring good branding principles to fundraising, generally, you see positive results.

Tony Martignetti
All right. How about we leave it there? Is that all right, Ishmam? I gave— Farra got the last word after all.

Ishmam Rahman
No, I think that's perfect. I agree with that 100%.

Tony Martignetti
That's Farra Trompeter, co-director and worker-owner at Big Duck, and Ishmam Rahman, director of audience and donor strategy at IRC, the International Rescue Committee. Farra, Ishmam, thank you. Thanks very much.

Ishmam Rahman
Thanks so much. It was a pleasure.

Farra Trompeter
Thanks for having us.

Tony Martignetti
All right. And thank you for being with Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio coverage of 26NTC, the 2023

Kate Martignetti
It's time for Tony's Take 2.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you, Kate. We are number 5 in the top 60 fundraising podcasts according to Million Podcasts. It's a podcast listening platform. You might listen to us there. So that's outstanding. Number 5. Uh, I thought I would give a shout out to the, uh, the top 4, the ones that maybe you should be listening to before you listen to Nonprofit Radio. No, that couldn't be. No, it's just, you know, this is just the way the things sort out. I mean, what's really the difference between number 1 and number 5? It's, it's so small. We could just as easily— it's probably in the margin of error. I don't know what the margin of error is, but I'll bet it's within the margin of error. So it's— we could be number 1, we could be— it happens to be number 5 this time. You know, next time I wouldn't be at all surprised we're number 1. So, uh, you know, it's all— they're all neck and neck, let's say. But I'll, I'll give a shout out, uh, to the, the top 4. Number 1 is the PM Podcast that is hosted by Jay Frost. I've been a guest of his on the PM Podcast a couple times. Number 1, that's number 1, Jay Frost. Number 2 is Nonprofit Nuggets with Jennifer Yarborough. I have not been on that one. That's probably why it's number 2. Maybe I can help her jump up if she wants to have me as a guest. But that's number 2, Nonprofit Nuggets. Number 3, The Nonprofit Show. This is a daily. I admire their commitment. They have rotating hosts. They have 5 or 6 different hosts that rotate. I've been a guest on that one. Hard to see why that's number 3 then. Hmm. That should be, uh, that should have been number 1 too. Well, like I said, all within the margin of error. We could be number 1. We, we probably are, but just, it's embarrassing for Million Podcasts to list us as number 1. Uh, but that's number 3, The Nonprofit Show. Number 4, Nonprofit News Feed Podcast hosted by George Weiner. Uh, I've been on their podcast. I've been on the, uh, I've been on 3 of the 4, 3 of the top 4. Uh, George is a good friend. I know him very well, not only LinkedIn, but we've seen each other many times in person too. That's number 4, Nonprofit News Feed. And you know, these are— I make light of it, you know, look, we're number 5. I'm grateful to be number 5. I'm grateful to be in the top 60. There's, there's probably 600 of them. Right. Fundraising podcasts. There's a lot. There's a lot. So, you know, it's a bit of a vanity metric, but we're grateful. I'm grateful that we're, uh, we're recognized. And so what that really means is thank you, our listeners, because if we didn't have any listeners, we wouldn't even be on a list. We would just— we wouldn't, we wouldn't even— we would just be floating in space. We wouldn't even belong to any list. Right. How tragic that would be. So thank you. Thank you for listening. It's been almost 16 years, only a couple months away from 16 years and 800 episodes. Thank you for getting us in the top 60. Grateful to be at number 5. And thank you, Million Podcasts. Thank you, Kate.

Kate Martignetti
Kate, there's a double Kate there. Um, there's always room for improvement, you know.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, harsh, harsh. What kind of— what, are you an associate producer for some other podcast? Are you, uh, trying to sabotage Nonprofit Radio?

Kate Martignetti
No, of course not.

Tony Martignetti
No, it doesn't sound like 100% loyalty to me.

Kate Martignetti
We've got beaucoup but loads more time.

Tony Martignetti
Welcome back to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio coverage of 26NTC, the 2026 Nonprofit Technology Conference. We're kicking off day 2 at the conference with Jen Newmeyer. Jen is Senior Director of Digital Fundraising Strategy at PBS. Jen, welcome to Nonprofit Radio. Thank you, Tony.

Jen Newmeyer
Why, thank you for having me, Tony. It's my pleasure to be here.

Tony Martignetti
A genuine pleasure. We arranged this on the fly over breakfast. We did. So, because we had a cancellation and now you're in the spot.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Your session topic is Donor Retention by Design: A Strategic Engagement Lab for Digital Teams. Give us a 30,000-foot overview of the topic and then we'll have time to Yeah,

Jen Newmeyer
sure. So the topic really focuses on engagement for retention. So as part of the, you know, donor cultivation journey, it's important to, you know, not only engage donors for acquisitions and prospects, bringing new people in, particularly in digital, but also as a stewardship tactic. And all of those efforts really, you know, inform and support long-term donor retention and loyalty. So that's what we're going to be talking about. And I'm going to be helping the attendees put together a program, how they can, you know, really put together a plan for engagement that supports retention.

Tony Martignetti
All right. Thank you very much.

Jen Newmeyer
You're welcome.

Tony Martignetti
So let's dive in a little deeper into the relationship between engagement Sure. What's your thinking around engagement strategies, digital?

Jen Newmeyer
Yeah, sure. So I think that a lot of times these types of activities are really overlooked, or they're, you know, living in the marketing department. For example, you have your marketing, you know, teams that are really active on social and doing a lot of really great work engaging audiences, but there's no thought to conversion, and there's no thought to stewardship. Like, these people that they're talking to are not only prospects, but they're also donors. And so it's just really important to have a very, you know, collaborative approach to engagement. And so So that is— all of those efforts just really support, you know, as I had said before, long-term retention and loyalty. And so it's not just about the social media. It is actually putting together a very intentional plan. So engagement strategies throughout the year, touchpoints with donors, really incorporating intentional acquisition and prospects and focusing on conversion in digital. That's really, you know, the part of the engagement strategies that are often overlooked just because nonprofits are busy. They're focused on their campaigns. It's one, you know, revenue campaign after another. And so—

Tony Martignetti
But by the same token, we know how important retention is.

Jen Newmeyer
For sure.

Tony Martignetti
All right. So now I know in your session you're going to be having folks develop a plan, a calendar. We're not going to be able to do that, but we can talk through what goes into this plan. So you said, you know, this is collaborative. It's not just the digital team that's involved in the engagement of our digital donors. All right, who do we need to bring in? What are we asking these folks to do to improve engagement so that we improve retention?

Jen Newmeyer
Yeah, sure. So, I mean, you not only need your fundraisers, And you need your marketing department, but you also need your communications team. If there is a team that works on events, that is helpful to have, you know, as perhaps part of a campaign, you know, a virtual event, a, you know, virtual, you know, live streaming activity as a part of an engagement campaign. Sometimes, especially in public media, a production team would helping you with video, on-air spots, broadcast spots, radio spots. And then, you know, you also— in some cases, there could be some corporate support that's a part of some of the engagement teams. So it's really very much of an integrated approach, especially for, you know, a really robust engagement effort where everyone is kind of coming together together and pulling in their expertise and their contacts and the channels that they work on and just really developing an intentional strategy.

Tony Martignetti
Okay. Now, if we don't have the benefit of in-house audio production teams, we may not be a PBS member station. We might be involved in animal welfare or domestic violence protection. You mentioned live streaming events as something. So bring What, like, bring folks behind the scenes? What, what might we, what might we livestream for our digital donors?

Jen Newmeyer
So I'll give you an example of a campaign, an engagement campaign that I put together when I was at WHYY in Philadelphia. So we went to

Tony Martignetti
law school.

Jen Newmeyer
Oh, is that

Tony Martignetti
right? And so I told you over our impromptu breakfast, I grew up with WNET 13 and WNYC. WYDY, public radio. And then law school, I went to Temple, so WHYY. Yes, yes, yes. I remember WHYY.

Jen Newmeyer
I loved my time in Philly. I was there for about 2 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tony Martignetti
Very good walking city.

Jen Newmeyer
Great walking city. Yeah, it really is. Yes, yes, yes.

Tony Martignetti
Sorry.

Jen Newmeyer
So this campaign that we put together, now it is very specific for public media, but the The strategies and the tactics can actually be replicated for an animal welfare, you know, type of organization or any type of organization. It's just a matter of being creative in the approach that you have. So the theme that we had at the WHYY campaign was around Jane Austen. So we had acquired Pride and Prejudice for a passport for, you know, digital It was on— online, so video on demand. And so we really created a sort of a 5-week campaign where we had a special email newsletter. We used one of our talent members who, you know, does reviews of movies, and he was the voice of this newsletter. And every week it went to He gave some behind-the-scenes details about the show in his voice. So that was the email series that we had. Then we also had a Spotify playlist for music that everyone had contributed to. We had trivia and a personality quiz about Jane Austen. We had a giveaway to acquire new folks. And we also utilized an event. So we did a partnership with the Jane Austen Museum in England to do— this was during COVID so we did a virtual tour, and she just did this lovely, you know, behind-the-scenes tour of Jane Austen's house. So everything was focused around this theme, and we really incorporated, you know, events and No, I'm sorry. You asked about live streaming. That was a different campaign called the— now that I'm remembering. That's all right. Yeah. So we did a separate one called the Great Fall Feast right before year-end that was the same sort of idea. So there was an email series that had recipes. We had trivia questions. And, you know, we had a giveaway with cookbooks. And it was centered around programs that focused on food. So what we did is every week we had a different theme, a different food theme, and we went to a local Philly restaurant and we did a live streaming, live taste test. Yeah. Had people tune in for that. So it was just all of these different ways to bring in different audiences. So those are sort of 2 examples that give a little idea of how these kinds of things are structured. So these These are, you know, really focused campaign initiatives that might span, as in these 2 examples, a couple of weeks. But there are a lot of other activities that you can incorporate into, you know, one of your, you know, fundraising campaigns. So if you're, you know, doing year-end, you know, focusing on, you know, some sort of— I love trivia giveaways, but also downloads.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, you mentioned You mentioned trivia quizzes twice, I think.

Jen Newmeyer
Yeah, yeah. So in traditional marketing, you know, everyone uses lead gens, so lead generators where they're offering a guide or a download or something like that for an email address. Well, you can do the same with an engagement campaign. So for the Great Fall Feast, we had a recipe guide they could download. For Jane Austen, we had a book list that they— that people could download. So it's a way to just add a different element of engagement to your overall strategy and bring in new prospects. So then you do advertising around this piece that you have that people can download. But there are so many creative ideas. I was talking to one organization who had like a 50th anniversary, and I was like, you should do like a historical book that, you know, on the culture in your community community and have it as, you know, a downloadable piece to incorporate into all of your events that you're doing around your anniversary as an extra acquisition piece. It also acts as a stewardship piece. So you have your major— you know, send it to your major donors. It's another touchpoint. So just being really creative in the way that you're pulling together these ideas to just be very focused, time-bound, Thematic, branded, and that really is sort of the secret to these putting together engagement strategies.

Tony Martignetti
You have something in your session description called the fundraising DISC model, D-I-S-C model. What is that? I've never heard of it.

Jen Newmeyer
Yeah, because I created it.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, it's proprietary to you. Are you willing to share it? I hope you're willing to share it.

Jen Newmeyer
Sure, yes.

Tony Martignetti
You gotta get it out more.

Jen Newmeyer
I know. Well, it's in my book. And, you know, I'm talking about it today.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. What's the title of your book?

Jen Newmeyer
Digital Fundraising Transformation: The Insider's Guide to Revolutionize Your Strategy and Raise More. All right. By Jen Newmeyer. Yes, that's right. So the DISC model is Digital Integration for Strategic Collaboration. And it pulls together 3 different traditional models in fundraising that really do not reflect the digital aspect of, you know, acquisition and prospecting. And so I think that that's why it's so confusing. You know, I've been, I've been doing digital fundraising strategy for almost 2 decades now, and still I, I get asked, you know, you know, what does this look like? Who does it? Like, what are we What am I supposed to do? People do email and they do social, but there's no real strategy that's pulled together. And I think that, you know, as I was going through, you know, the, you know, all of the materials for my CFRE, you know, these models just really don't reflect that. You know, it's focused on the cultivation of existing donors. It's not really focused on pulling in, you know, new acquisition and prospects. So the fundraising disc model takes the constituent circles, Rosso's constituent circles, which focuses on the stakeholders at the very center, and then as you go out of the concentric circles, the commitment is a little less from— it's very similar to other models where commitment is a little less. You're, you know, sort of going to the last circle of the concentric circles where it's called the organization's universe. Just this very sort of broad description. But that, that piece of the circle is so important from a digital fundraising and strategy to really be intentional about how you're pulling in those prospects and focused on the conversion, as I kind of alluded to earlier, when your marketing team is doing all of their wonderful efforts focused on the conversion to bring them toward the center. So that's the concentric circle that sort of lives in the middle, sort of center of the model. Overlaid on the concentric circles are the growth funnel. And so the growth funnel is really great for digital fundraising because the first 3 levels are introduction, acquisition, and cultivation before you get to the conversion of donations. So that's overlaid and again really demonstrates all of the very intentional strategies that go toward bringing in these new digital audiences. Then the growth funnel— I'm sorry, the giving pyramid focuses— again, it starts at the very first level level is your one-time donor. So there's not even a level for acquisition. So I added a level for acquisition, overlaid this on the model so that it demonstrates this really cohesive strategy for bringing in, you know, all of these new audiences and then to very intentionally convert them and bring them closer to the center of the DISC model. So it's shaped, you know, a little bit round With the growth funnel and the giving pyramid overlaid on it. So that's the fundraising disc model.

Tony Martignetti
Okay.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
I wish I could see a visual.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Because it sounds like a circle and a triangle and another triangle.

Jen Newmeyer
That's right.

Tony Martignetti
Yes, yes, yes. I can visualize. Yes. Your session is this afternoon. You're going to be talking about— or no, this morning, later this morning. You're going to be talking about some common roadblocks that we might What do you see as we're trying to take this integrated approach and bring in other stakeholders? What are some of those obstacles? How do we overcome them? Maybe there are naysayers in the organization. Let's flesh this out, please.

Jen Newmeyer
Yeah, sure. So one of the very common barriers is really the silos that organizations have. So the marketing department often, you know, doesn't understand what fundraising does or they sort of feel icky about it, like, we don't wanna ask people for money. That just seems sort of not—

Tony Martignetti
Unseemly. It's beneath us.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes. Yes.

Tony Martignetti
We'd rather do display ads in the local bus shelters.

Jen Newmeyer
Right. And then your fundraising department who works so hard in really strengthening relationships in cultivating relationships, which really is the core of fundraising. They can't understand why marketing is not thinking in this way of stewarding these audiences in a very intentional, long-term way. So there's a lot of communication barriers that come between the marketing and the fundraising department. So in my book, we actually won't be talking about this specifically at the session, but in my book I do talk about how to break down some of those barriers and have those conversations. Really, the DiSC model, it was created to demonstrate how everything is supposed to work together for success. So

Tony Martignetti
how do we bring along some of these objectionists? Yeah, I don't have a lot of tolerance for naysayers. Yeah. Oh, we've done it this way for so long. You don't know what you're doing.

Jen Newmeyer
Right, right, right.

Tony Martignetti
Well, how about turn that on its head? Suppose it's wildly successful instead of wildly failing like you predict. So how do we bring some of these folks along? Share a couple of tactics.

Jen Newmeyer
So I think the first thing is communication, like sitting down and talking about what the goals are in marketing, what the goals are in fundraising, and how There could be some first steps of kind of collaborating, even in some small way with, you know, can we add some digital ads for our year-end campaign? So taking, you know, some baby steps and just demonstrating how a couple of, you know, collaborations for different campaigns would work. Even on the marketing side, you know, if there is like a big marketing theme, you know, at PBS, There's, you know, Viewers Like Me campaign that the marketing team has. And, you know, so is there a way that we can take all of those wonderful strategies and introduce some conversion elements? Like, how are we measuring? What are the call to actions that we have for that? Can we create some sort of, you know, like I had said before, some trivia or download where we have some email capture so that That can lead into a cultivation strategy for emails, or, you know, and then on the email side of things, can we share some of these lists so that when we do have a year-end campaign, we're actually talking to the— talking to these audiences about how important it is to support the organization? So it starts a little bit with baby steps.

Tony Martignetti
Yeah, incrementalism can be very valuable.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes, yes.

Tony Martignetti
And bring folks along.

Jen Newmeyer
Another of my favorite words Is a pilot. Can we do a pilot?

Tony Martignetti
People don't mind pilots.

Jen Newmeyer
They don't mind pilots.

Tony Martignetti
A little pilot light. There's a little flame in the stove. Exactly. Just a little burning flame. 24 hours, it's always on. I was thinking of a pilot light. But yeah, can we do a pilot? That sounds very— I don't know.

Jen Newmeyer
Just some experimentation.

Tony Martignetti
Gingerly, a pilot.

Jen Newmeyer
Let's just see what happens.

Tony Martignetti
Sounds like fun.

Jen Newmeyer
That's right. That's right. So, talking about a pilot is another, you know, really great way to explore the conversations of how collaboration can happen. Yeah. And then I think the third is really just some demonstrated success. And so that's why I, you know, do a lot of presentations. That's why I'm here today to talk about, like, yes, these things are successful, because I have done them at my organizations. I have been in resistant organizations. Where I've had to have some pretty candid conversations about, like, this is what I'm doing here. And if you don't want me to do these things, like, you know, from an organizational standpoint, you know, like, let's have that conversation because I can go elsewhere and, you know, take my, take my little bag of tricks on the road. Yeah. But, you know, it really, it really just starts with some conversations, some testing. And sometimes some research also. When I was at WHYY, lovely group of folks that I worked with, I just, you know, they're just really passionate about what they do, very interested in doing experimentation and A/B testing and those kinds of things. But when it came down to actually changing things on the donation form, it was like, well, we love experimentation, but you can't change the donation form.

Tony Martignetti
Right.

Jen Newmeyer
So, you know, I took about— it probably was about a 6 to 8 month process where I did research on each. You know, we had meetings.

Tony Martignetti
What did you want to do to the donor form that was objectionable to these folks?

Jen Newmeyer
Well, so there were some fields that were, from my perspective, unnecessary. As it turned out, they were. So, but in their minds, like, no, it's so important that we know if the donor wants to support TV or radio. It's so important that we know, you know, their, you know, middle name and their street number too, and that they have the option to leave comments because we read those comments on air. And all of these just little small elements that really slow down the donation process. Right. And actually, these things you can collect on the backend and actually utilize After they become a donor.

Tony Martignetti
That's right. We're so interested in your opinion.

Jen Newmeyer
Right.

Tony Martignetti
We'd love to read it on air. And what second address might you have? Because we don't want to lose touch with you. Yeah, right. It could be stewardship and cultivation for, you know, engaging.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Instead of front-loading it all, like, you feel like they'll never come back.

Jen Newmeyer
Right.

Tony Martignetti
Negative, you know, kind of a scarcity mindset that we'll never see them again. They'll never come back and answer questions, so we better get it all now. Right. So like a 2-page donation form.

Jen Newmeyer
Exactly. I see. I don't know if you've ever tried to give to— this is— I have a separate presentation on user journeys and streamlining donation forms. And I love to use the example, and I understand it's very hard for universities and folks who work in academia from a fundraising standpoint, but it's so important that the— if you ever go to a university to make a donation, most likely it's about 5 pages. They want you to log in first. They want you to choose the school that you give to. They want to have you create an account. They want— so I like to use that example. Not to shame anyone. I understand that every— it's very difficult because you do have so many different possibilities for support within a university. Right. Sometimes, you know, it's not a very good user experience.

Tony Martignetti
Still burdensome. And yeah, thinking of these as stewardship and cultivation points after that first gift. Exactly. Let's just get the first gift in. Yes. Amazon does not ask, what else might you like to look at? Right. They'll just throw it to you later. It doesn't all have to be done in the first instance.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes, yes, yes.

Tony Martignetti
I know I want to be respectful of your time because we did this on the fly. We still have about We've got about another 10 minutes or so. Let's talk some about metrics, important metrics that we determine whether our engagement is actually retaining folks.

Jen Newmeyer
So very similar to the marketing metrics that you have when you're looking at your impressions and your click-throughs, the most important metrics that you're looking for for engagement are not only conversion, of course, That's really the main goal. But also looking at performance of your existing donors. So for example, the trivia that I did for the Ardently Austin campaign, was what it was called, we looked not only at the number of new prospects that we had. That gives a really great indication of the potential for growth. Right. for cultivating them. And, you know, if you have your, you know, conversion metrics and your lifetime value metrics, then you can estimate how much, even if it's just 30 or 40 people, the impact that they'll have over the course of several years. So that's, that's always a good— and that's, of course, prospecting metrics. But then also looking at the number of donors, or in our— in the case of WHYY, the member— existing members who participated, because that means that they're engaged. This is a touchpoint that they, that they have, and those kinds of interactions that you have really pay off downstream. Now, it is a little difficult for organizations to really track that. There's, you know, some some technical limitations that a lot of organizations have. But there are experiments that show that, for example, doing a series of emails before a year-end campaign between 2 audiences, those— that group of folks who received those cultivation pieces before a year-end campaign were like 197% more likely to make a donation during the year-end campaign. And, you know, and then looking into the retention of these donors. So you're taking these groups and you're just really looking at their performance over a long period of time. And so that is really how you get to the core of how, you know, you can justify some of these efforts, because leadership, a lot of times, even when we were doing, you know, livestream, we're livestreaming. Yeah. streaming taste test lunches for this campaign that we had, the Great Fall Feast that we did before year-end, your leadership might say, well, what are you doing taking the intern out for lunch? And why are you— what is the purpose of this? How does this really fit into a fundraising strategy? This seems more like a marketing thing. So it's telling the story also from a metrics standpoint that will really help sort of— Yeah. garner the support within your organization, especially from leadership, to continue those efforts. So really looking at retention, long-term lifetime donor value, the performance of the prospects, the performance of your donors, those donors who are receiving these communication points, you know, how often they're giving afterward, are they Are they making multiple gifts a year? What is their retention? So it's really drilling down into these groups and tracking them over time.

Tony Martignetti
Okay, cool. I love Ardently Austin. I'm a big fan of alliterations.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes. Was

Tony Martignetti
that your idea, Ardently Austin?

Jen Newmeyer
That came from the marketing department.

Tony Martignetti
Oh, okay. I happen to love alliteration.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
Did you by any chance ever work in Pittsburgh, KQED?

Jen Newmeyer
I did not, no. Okay. Okay.

Tony Martignetti
I thought maybe you were tracking my public media.

Jen Newmeyer
No,

Tony Martignetti
my favorite stations. But no. Okay.

Jen Newmeyer
But I do know the great folks from KQED.

Tony Martignetti
That was Mr. Rogers.

Jen Newmeyer
It was.

Tony Martignetti
That was his home for all those decades.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes. Yeah.

Tony Martignetti
All right, Jen. So leave us with some like— well, we still have a few minutes left. Still being respectful of your time. Thank you. What haven't we covered yet that you're going to talk about in your session that you think listeners should know?

Jen Newmeyer
Well, one of the things, you know, a lot of times, this kind of embarking on these, you know, in this area can be overwhelming. So when I'm working with folks, as we'll be going through the session today, is, you know, there are lots of ideas of things that you can incorporate into an engagement campaign. And so what I'll be working with the attendees is just choose one. Just choose one or two things, incorporate that into your next— Incremental. Incremental, right.

Tony Martignetti
Try one or two, yeah.

Jen Newmeyer
Exactly, exactly. So I do present sort of a very robust sort of calendar if you're going to have, you know, in addition to your existing activities that you already have, like we're gonna be mapping out what those are. So what's your direct mail schedule? What's your year-end campaign schedule? Do you have events? Do you have your galas? Putting them out on a calendar and just looking for some gaps of maybe, you know, maybe we can insert, you know, a little mini engagement campaign. A pilot. A pilot.

Tony Martignetti
A pilot. Yes.

Jen Newmeyer
That's right. And from all of the ideas, just pick one or two that you think that you could implement, sort of making this incremental list, things that you're like, oh, yes, I think we could do that. Like, yes, we could, you know, do, you know, a giveaway. One station that I have in Montana, they have a member giveaway every month where, you know, they have a lot of, you know, CDs, t-shirts, tote bags, those kinds of things. They put it together in a little package and they just do a giveaway in their member newsletter. So they have a monthly newsletter that goes to their donors, and their donors can enter to win this, you know, little giveaway. It's a very small little thing. It's just a small little package, but it's boosting those click-through rates. It's boosting that engagement. It's, you know, operating as a stewardship tool. People are posting that they love the t-shirt and tote bag that they got. So if it's just that one little thing, can we just do one of those in the— Yeah. Can we just do one of those maybe, you know, in January when we're really focusing on our stewardship efforts? So just thinking of more the incremental strategy, because there is a lot that you can do. You can put together really amazing, robust, you know, calendars and touchpoints throughout the year, automations, new member, you know, new donor automated sequences. Right. series, a new subscriber automated series, your impact reports, like lots of things that you can do, but just pick one. So that's what we're gonna, you know, there's a little booklet that I'll have for everyone where they can, you know, make their, you know, little checkmarks of things that they think that maybe they could just do when they get back to their office. But then to think bigger, like what if we really did have the support of the marketing team, if we really did have, you know, some production You know, resources, you know, it, you know, maybe next summer, could we put together, you know, a 3-week, you know, more robust engagement initiative? So we're gonna be documenting that in the, in the little book, and hopefully that is something that they can— tangible— they can take with them to think about as they're putting together their campaign plans for the year.

Tony Martignetti
And also great ideas for Nonprofit Radio listeners. Yeah. These are all very small, small but meaningful, and they're the beginning of the journey.

Jen Newmeyer
Right.

Tony Martignetti
Great ideas.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes, yes, yes.

Tony Martignetti
Thank you. Jen, Jen Newmeyer, Senior Director of Digital Fundraising Strategy at PBS. We did this, like I said, on the fly. I saw Jen at breakfast. I walked over, can I share a table with you? And then it turned out we had invited her to come and and sit for a conversation, but the timing didn't work out. But I had just this morning had a cancellation at 9 AM, and so Jen was willing to slide in.

Jen Newmeyer
And here we are.

Tony Martignetti
And your session is at 10:15. You have plenty of time to get to your room.

Jen Newmeyer
Yes.

Tony Martignetti
All right.

Jen Newmeyer
I'll be on my way.

Tony Martignetti
Jen, thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

Jen Newmeyer
Thank you. Appreciate it.

Tony Martignetti
And thank you for being with Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio coverage of 26NTC, the 2026 Nonprofit Technology Conference.

Kate Martignetti
Next week, apps, tools, and tactics, and internal newsletters your staff will open. If you missed any part of this week's show,

Tony Martignetti
I beseech you, find it at tonymartignetti.com.

Kate Martignetti
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I'm your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show's social media is by Susan Thank

Tony Martignetti
you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for Nonprofit Radio, Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great. Thank you for listening to Nonprofit Radio.