And welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d bear the pain of chromycosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, with what’s coming. Hey Tony, here’s what’s coming. Your five-step inclusive strategic plan. The author of the book, Inclusive Strategic Planning for Nonprofits, talks you through her strategy of kickoff, discovery, prioritization, planning, and implementation. She makes your plan a valuable living resource, rather than a dusty volume sitting on your shelf. Renee Rubin Ross is CEO of the Ross Collective. On Tony’s take 2. We’re at 26 NTC. Here is your five-step inclusive strategic plan. It’s a pleasure to welcome back to nonprofit radio, a recognized leader on board and organizational development and strategy. Doctor Renee Ruben Ross is the founder and CEO of the Ross Collective Consulting Practice. Her new book is Inclusive Strategic Planning for Nonprofits, a five-step Process to expand Energy, alignment and Opportunity. Her company is at the Ross Collective.com. And Renee is on LinkedIn. Renee, Ruben Ross, welcome back to Nonprofit Radio. So good to be here. Last time we met, it was, we were in person at NTC a couple of years ago. It was the one of the NTCs a couple of years ago. Um, this is less hectic and, uh, and longer. We have more time together. Congratulations on the new book. Oh, it’s so exciting. Yeah, thank you. I know it’s a huge undertaking. Congratulations. Congratulations. Lots of people have books in mind that that never get written. Yours, yours as. Well, it took a few, it took some time and lots of, lots of support, which we could talk about, but, um, lots of, it was an inclusive process actually to, to write this book. Yeah, Outstanding. Then you’re, then you’re walking your walk. Very good, very good. Um, I don’t know if I called this out when you. And I were at NTC together, but, you know, I’m a huge fan of alliteration. And you are Renee Ruben Ross. I just love that your family was able to put it together and then, and then you, yeah, did you marry someone named Ross and Ruben is, yes, my partner is is, yes, your partner Ross. So I, yeah, I love it. I love it. It all came together, Renee, Ruben, Ross. I like our three. Triple R R 3, you’re like, you could be a ranch or to, uh, to do, you know, make that happen really besides, you know, no, I’m sure, but good fortune. I wish my family, I’d like, I, I, I, I wouldn’t be mine like Matthew Martinetti or I don’t know, I don’t, I don’t wanna change my surname, but maybe the first name. But no, I, I’ve, you know, I’m a big, I’m just a big fan of alliterations, so. So let’s talk about inclusive strategic planning. Why don’t you, why don’t you, uh, I mean, just high-level view. What is inclusive strategic planning? Yeah thanks for the question so um so one of the one of the key ideas in the book is there are different people who participate in planning and what what I was trying to get at is there’s a lot of books that are about the the tools and the process and all of that and um I you know refer to some of those but what we’re talking about what I’m talking about in this book is really about who is in the room doing the visioning and building. The goals and the importance of making that an inclusive process so I have this one graphic which is this idea of um deciders, builders and sharers and a lot of processes have deciders that’s pretty obvious what that is a lot of processes have sharers those are the people doing focus groups interviews, all of that sharing their perspective it’s really the builders that make this unique and that is having a wider group who’s going. To be weighing in on their own future and I think that in these times more than ever we need people we need to incorporate people’s perspectives in whatever’s gonna happen next we need people to feel like my voice matters, my, my perspective matters and and that’s what an inclusive process is. So this is not a strategic planning process that the board goes off onto a retreat at a country club for, for a weekend. And comes back, uh, they’ve met with the CEO and maybe the chief development officer and the CFO, and then they, and then at the end of the weekend, we foist on the nonprofit, the 3 to 5 year strategic plan, the 5-year strategic plan. That that’s not, this is not that. I teach a class. I teach a class through Cal State East Bay in strategic planning, and I have a lot of people that come to my, I have some people that have come to my class. Who have experienced strategic planning trauma exactly what you’re describing where it’s like wait we got this thing we don’t know where it came from we don’t know who thought of this this doesn’t make sense to us we don’t feel invested in it and all of that and so this is this really from the beginning it is designed in to say. Um, who are the people who are, who first of all, who, for example, um, I’m doing a retreat tomorrow and the many of the staff members will be there talking about their perspective on the on this organization’s work. Uh, talking about, you know, their experience working with the young people that the organization serves, and then they get to then the staff and the and some of the board members as well get to build that final plan and and set their goals, all of that and that really um it creates a plan that people feel like yeah this is doable we wanna do this these are the right next steps for our organization. Well, you’re getting the buy-in from the people. You’re saying like the builders, to me, the builders sounds like, uh, uh, I’m making an analogy to, to middle management. It sounds like it’s the middle managers. You’re getting buy-in from the folks who the plan. Largely impacts because they’re the ones carrying out the strategic plan. Yeah, and by the way, I mean that, thank you for that point. Um, so one of the things that, that I did in writing this book, I actually, I had a manuscript, and then I, um, I did, I opened it up to a lot of beta readers, and I got a lot of, um, a lot of feedback. And one of the pieces of feedback was, well, who is this book for? And originally, I, like, in my mind, originally it was like, oh, I’ll just, this is a book that I’ll just give to prospective clients and they’ll understand. And our work better. But then people said, no, you know, these processes can be used by a lot of people. So I think that the builders could be every, if it’s a small organization and you have a working board, it might be that the whole board, and there’s one staff person, the whole board and what that one staff person, that those are the builders. It may be that the board and staff together are builders and it also might be like we work with with an organization. Um, recently or a couple of years ago that they had 55 people who came to the retreat and worked together with us to say, you know, what do you, what do we, we have this question, what do we, this visioning question, what do we want to see in place in the next 3 years as a result of our actions, so it’s a practical vision and. Everyone in the staff got to, got to, you know, based on our the work that we’re doing every day, here’s what we want to make happen so it doesn’t have to just be, I mean, I think it depends on the size of the organization, obviously, um, we just heard from an. Organization that has over 100 employees, it’s really difficult to, you know, you are gonna, not every, not everyone’s going to be able to be in the room in that kind of case. Yeah, I just meant it as an analogy like it’s, it’s the, it’s the middle management of strategic plan implementation. Like these, these are the folks who are gonna be doing the work to carry out the plan. So you’re, so you’re getting the buy-in of the, you know, the builders. You, you call them the builders. Um, you, you, so you’re, you’re including them in the process. Obviously, if they’re included, they’re, I, I think it’s obvious, they’re more likely to be enthusiastic about it. Rather than what I laid out, you know, the country club plan after a weekend with the board, and, and, and half the strategic plan was developed over, over glasses of wine, right? Or, OK, someone says that we’re supposed to raise $3 million but that’s not very realistic for, you know, the fact that we have the, the development staff that we have now, you know, so do a year fundraising operation, the $3 million is not realistic in the next 3 years. All right, all right. Um, OK, so, you know, you, you’re bringing people in, it’s, it’s, it’s equitable, um, inclusive. How do we know? When we’re ready for. A strategic planning initiative. What do we need to have in place? What do we need to think through? What do we need to maybe do for the year before leading up to, you know, what, what, like, how do we get our head around, like, if we feel like we, we, we, we, we, we could use a vision for a 3 to 5 year plan, what, what do we need to have in place first? Yeah, and so this is such an important question. Um, I think that there is a lot of information about strategic planning out there. And so sometimes we hear. From people who will say, oh, I’m, you know, I’m starting on my organization. I want to build a strategic plan and no, you do not need if you’re about to create what you if you’re creating an organization, what you need to do at that point is actually start building your organization. You don’t need to, you don’t have enough complexity and actually, you know, time under your your time and time of running the organization to start doing a real. Deep strategy work, um, so I have a, a little grid in the book. It’s also on I’ve written about this in the past where you can look at two questions, uh, what is our programmatic stability and what is our financial stability, and you want both of those to be, uh, you want at least one of those to be high and hopefully both of them, uh, before you start to do some strategic planning. So if you’re not there yet, there are things you can do you can, uh, do an action plan for the year and think about, OK, we know that right now our fundraising is a little wobbly. What do we want? What are some steps we can take in the next year? Who’s gonna do those steps? And I do have a section in the book about action planning. Um, and so either both looking at your financial stability and also your programmatic stability, do we have a sense of our core programs and how well they’re working? OK, I was just gonna pull on that a little bit. What, what does programmatic strength look like? Yeah, I think, uh, a track record of success basically like if um you want to be able to say, um, we know this is working, it is, uh, wrecking we’re getting some funding for it from the community we have some client, you know, we, we have some client feedback that this works, all of that and so, uh, we can keep building on it basically, OK, and financial stability, what does that, what, what is that? Is that the x axis or the y axis? Programmatic, right, which it doesn’t really matter. You can do either one. They’re, they’re both got the two axes, exactly, and you got, so you got 4 quadrants. OK, it doesn’t matter as long as you got the 4 quadrants. All right, what is financial stability is really, um, we have a sense of where our funding is coming from, um, that, uh, we have some, you know, whatever our funding model is, it’s been worked out versus we have no idea where we’re gonna get funding. For next year that’s not the time to do strategic planning if that’s your situation, the first thing you really want to do is shore up your finances and then OK then let’s come back and um strategy is much more about what choices are we gonna make now you know OK we have we have a couple different programs maybe we’re gonna need to um stop doing something because our work is getting complex and there’s a lot of demand for it. And both of these would Suggest that, well, not suggest, demand that a new organization like you were, you were suggesting, you know, hypothesizing new organization wants to start strategic planning. They have no programmatic stability. They don’t know if their programs work. They have no outcomes yet, and they don’t have financial stability because they’re a new organization. They don’t, they don’t know where their funding is gonna come from. They don’t even know if they’re gonna get funding. So, like a, you know, a, a 1 or 2 year old nonprofit shouldn’t be engaged in strategic planning. Right, um, I mentioned this, um, this case in the book of a couple of years ago working with SOS Meals on Wheels, uh, here in Northern California and the challenge that they had was that, uh, the executive director had a lot of conversations with the board, a lot of conversations with the staff, and people hadn’t really come together to figure out what. Focus on um and one of one of the things that emerged in in the plan was, OK, we need a bigger kitchen and that will allow us to do more, you know, more deliveries per week and then we won’t have to be, or I guess it’s actually fewer deliveries per week so we won’t have to be driving our trucks all around. Just by coming together and agreeing on this, they were able to make it happen within a year and it’s really kind of amazing and it wasn’t like something that no one had ever thought of it was just getting that alignment of getting everyone in the room to get that focus. And that’s really what, what, uh, strategic planning is, but just going back to, you know, what we were talking about when you’re just starting out, you don’t, you don’t necessarily need to get everyone aligned. You kind of just need to start doing your work and prove that it works. Yeah, right, get out there, and, and, and meet folks and do the and do the work. OK. What are the, what are the deliverables of a strategic plan? What, what kind of, what are we looking for from this? Yeah, usually, um, a this kind of practical vision, uh, we will look at the mission statement and look at some often look at mission statements from comparable organizations think about what kind of language are people using now and does that need to, you know, does so does the mission statement need to be revised and then we’ll, we’ll create some strategies and goals. And we go to a one year implementation plan and really uh often we’ll be working with organizations to take that implementation plan and put get it into the work plan of the organization so you’re going from 3 to really mostly 3, a 3 year plan, 3 years to 1 year to quarters to what is the uh weekly work of the, of, you know, of people on the staff. OK, OK. And I, I know implementation is the, the 5th of your 5 steps, but it’s so critical because there’s so many plans that just get written and created and then, I don’t know, just put on a shelf. I mean, they’re not, they’re not referenced. You know, that’s a, that to me that’s that that that was just a wasted exercise like check mark, check mark, check box. OK, we’ve got a strategic plan we could, we could tell the funders we have a strategic plan, right. And so I, so that’s where, so a couple things. So one thing is we talk a lot about this is process and product. So as you’re Going along you want to think about uh what is important to me? Why do I care about this and that that really goes in the plan and so by the time you have a plan created that um it’s something that makes sense right? that there is that that energy and alignment but at the same time. Yes, you’re absolutely right that and I think that um people are, it’s like, OK, we’re going to get to the destination and then in our and then we’re going to stop there. It’s like, mm, well, and in my book, I actually talk about this thing, this phenomenon of the place where our problems are solved, right? Yeah, this is not it. We, we may have in mind, you know, maybe if I just, I don’t know, you know, if I just, uh, found a partner, if I just whatever, had children, if I just, uh, you know, got a certain education, wrote a book, right, or created a strategic plan, all problems would be solved. And I, I would be the first to, I wish life worked that way, you know. And and it doesn’t and you need to know that you need to know that you will have your plan but then new questions will emerge and and some of them are around um are there things we need to stop because that actually is being strategic to say we can’t do everything um that we’re we’re a great organization there’s a lot of demand from the community we cannot do everything. Um, and then the other piece is, yeah, how do we slow down and really, um, if we’ve been always reactive, can we start to think about where, how do we, um, determine what we’re focusing on and find, create a system to put that into our, you know, to, to our work plan and that and it’s not easy. I, I, you know, it’s not easy, yeah, I’m glad we spent some time on, on the implementation even though it’s the final step. I, I. Yeah, it, it, it deserves a lot of focus because there, this is a big undertaking. Uh, it can be expensive in time and money. Um, and it, it takes a lot of thought. You know, it’s not something you can task somebody. I mean, you know, task in a half an hour, I need your contribution to the strategic plan, please. It’s 1 o’clock. I, I, I need it before you go to lunch. You know, it doesn’t, it’s not like that. So, we’re investing a lot into the process. It has to be, it has to be carried through. In, in, and, and implemented and used and relied on and, and looked back to and, and counted on. Right, right, right. And, and, and by the way, I mean, oh my gosh, so many things to say about this by the staff as well as the board. And so that is, you know, when, when I talk with an organization, I will say, well, how often is the staff referring to the strategic plan? Um, how often is the board, you know, what is the board responsible for in this plan and how are they doing on that and what else? Is there to talk? I mean, there should be, and I do talk about that in the book too. There should be sections for the, for the board as well. Maybe that’s around fundraising or oversight or whatever it is, um, connecting, you know, making connections for the organization, being that serving in that ambassador role, um, but the other piece is that it is important to sketch out. OK, now that we know what our, our goals are, who’s gonna be responsible for those goals and how and do we have the capacity to, to do this? So we had an organization that created, you know, there are different tools you can use as an RACI, which is responsible accountable, and there’s a couple of different, I don’t know if you’ve heard of that RACI chart, I think it’s called Rock Rocky or something. And um, you gotta watch that, you gotta watch jargon jail. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta lock you up in jargon jail. If you, if you can’t, if you can’t define the acronym, you can’t use it. Uh oh, OK, well, um, I hadn’t heard of this before, but our client was using this, and it’s, so it’s like different people have different roles in project management, basically. That’s what this is about. And so what they found out was that this poor executive director was going to be responsible for. 15 new initiatives, you know, and there was just no way that that was one or two, right. And so, so what they had to do was, again, slow down and say, all right, this person, they, we want to implement the strategic plan, we’re going to need to hire somebody who’s going to be, who’s going to be working on some of these pieces because we don’t have it in our current configuration. So thank you. I, I, I wanted to spend time on the the value of the strategic plan, uh, uh, that, that we’re investing all this time and money into and, and how it needs to be, you know, the, it is, it’s the plan. So follow the plan. All right. But let’s go to the five steps, which are, I’m just gonna tick them off quick. Uh, kickoff, discovery, prioritization, planning, and implementation. What’s our, what’s our kickoff step? What is that, so now we decided we are ready. We’ve done the, we’ve done the, the groundwork to, uh, to make sure that we are financially and programmatically. Stable, uh, we, we did have a lot of discussion around which is the X axis and which is the Y axis, but we were able to overcome, we were able to overcome that, that, uh, dissension within the organization. No, no, no, program is the ground. It belongs on the ground. Program should be the X, and the finances should be raising. All right, so we overcame, we overcame that, uh, that, that conflict within the organization, and we, we decide we’re ready. So what is our, what is kickoff. Yeah, kickoff is, is really, um, is to set it up to try to, so if this is an inclusive process, then being more open and transparent about information. Uh, what are, what is planning? Some people may have done a lot of strategic planning in the past. Some people are very new to it. What is the step? What are the steps gonna be? People have questions around, um, how much time is this gonna take? And, and so, and then also starting to figure out who’s gonna be, uh, who will be those sharers, right? Who’s gonna be consulted in interviews and focus groups. Possibly a survey and uh you know, is there gonna be some we usually do a day or a day and a half retreat when is that gonna be? um and even being transparent about about decision making again is a way to say OK these are the final deciders is this group all this this other larger group is gonna be the builders and. These other people are going to be sharing their perspective. Um, so really that kickoff is really just setting it up and um trying to help people, you know, have this be a fun learning experience, decreasing some of the feelings of, oh, I don’t know what this is, and so I feel worried that it’s not going to go well, you know. So you, you said, uh, you usually do a day and a half retreat. So now we’re now going back to the, we’re going back to the country club. Somebody sponsors us. They got a room at the country club. It’s probably got a nice fireplace. Uh, maybe it overlooks a golf course or tennis courts. Maybe it’s a tennis, could be a tennis club. It doesn’t have to be a golf club. I, I like tennis. So, uh, maybe so it overlooks the tennis courts. Uh, you know, there’s, there’s catering coming in. Are the are the builders and the sharers, they’re invited to the day and a half to bring their builders are the builders are coming to that. The builders are, yeah, our retreats are often at the, I don’t know, the, the park, you know, like the park, uh, parks can be great. Oh yeah, I’m doing the stereotype a little hot in the park, you know, but, but OK, here we’re. California, you know, or, or we’ve had, you know, hotel, hotel boardroom, conference room, all of that, but you do make a really good point which is it is way easier if possible, if possible, not always possible, but try to have that retreat somewhere that is not your office and really set the expectation that you are, you know, you’re out of. Office, you’re not having meetings, you’re and please order the food ahead of time. Oh my gosh. Um, I can’t tell you how many, it’s a few times early on where some, you know, they have the executive director. It’s like, OK, what is your vision for the future? And the executive director says, I’m sorry, I need to go figure out what we’re having for lunch. It’s like, no, no, you know. So, um, so yeah, so plan your future, not, you know, plan your lunch the day before. This is all about, uh, you know. Timing. If you’re at the park, maybe you could grill, you know, if there’s open grilling, maybe, maybe you could grill or, or, or have it delivered to the park. All right. Um, all right, so the sharers, well then how do the sharers share their, their contribution if they’re not invited to the. Lots of ways so it might be um sometimes um if we’re the you know we’re the consultants we will do interviews and focus groups you can also if you’re doing this project this process yourself it’s so easy to set up a Google form and just and put some questions in there and then. Uh, you, uh, would say, OK, we have, I don’t know, we have 10 staff people or 5 staff people, we’re each gonna do 4 or 5 interviews, we’re gonna put them in the Google form and then we’re gonna spend some time at the retreat sharing what we learned from those sharers. It’s time for Tony’s take 2. Thank you, Kate. All this week, nonprofit Radio is at the 2026 nonprofit Technology Conference. In Detroit, Michigan. I’ve never been to Detroit, so I’m looking forward to that very much. Should be some fun, have some, uh, some meals at a couple of nice places, hopefully in, uh, in Detroit. We are, of course, as we do every year at NTC we’re capturing lots of interviews for future shows, interviews with people who are leading sessions at NTC. These are smart technology people, helping you use technology better, more efficiently, more productively, choosing the right technology in some cases. All for, uh, you know, for efficiency, mission improvement. I love taking the show to NTC year after year, and this is our 12th year going to a nonprofit technology conference. Um, I love it because N10, the host of NTC is just very generous with space and working with us to get the interviews all set up in advance. Um, They’re just, you know, they’re, they’re just great partners. You know, it’s, it’s a pleasure to work with people who want to work with you, you know, who see your value, you see their value as well. It’s a pleasure. So that’s why 12 years running, and I’m sure we’ll go 13, uh, this time next year. I don’t know where next year’s is though. I think it’ll be West Coast cause they go. East Coast, Central, west, and then back to east. Last year was Baltimore, this year’s Detroit. So somewhere on the West Coast next year. Doesn’t matter. Nonprofit radio will be, will be with them there. So that’s where we are. Look forward to all those interviews coming up. In future shows with all these smart technology folks at the nonprofit technology conference. That is Tony’s take 2. Kate, Safe travels. Thank you. We’re recording in advance, of course. So thank you. Thank you. She’s, you know, here I say this week and then she blows it saying, you know, gives it away that, no, I think people know that, uh, the show must be recorded in advance because it gets published every Monday, so. We’re not, we’re not a live stream, so no, you didn’t, you didn’t blow it. You didn’t blow it. Thank you very much. We’ve got Beu butt loads more time. Here’s the rest of your five-step inclusive strategic plan with Renee Rubin Ross. Part of the kickoff, you know, you’re laying it out, what’s it gonna look like. Some folks have never done it before, or the, or, or our process may be very different than what they participated in at some other nonprofit or the same nonprofit 10 years ago. So how do we describe it? What, what is it gonna look like? Um, so a couple different things we, we will share, um, some of the meetings that we’re gonna be holding and talk about, um, some of the, um, some of the conversations we’re gonna hold as well that we are gonna be doing some visioning, uh, and that. Strategic planning really focuses on how is our organization adding value? What’s the most valuable thing that we’re doing right now, and how do we do more of that, uh, you know, yeah, I mean there’s a lot of different ways to say that, but I think that is the essence of it and um. That is, it’s not a, it’s a subjective question. It’s actually what do the people in the room who are doing the work feel is the most valuable part of the work. So there’s no pure answer to what’s most valuable. It’s actually what do we care most deeply about and that is what we’re gonna build a strategy around, you know, and, and obviously that’s informed by donors. That’s informed by um by what by what’s that data by data that’s informed by you know what we’re learning from yeah from our from working with clients from working in the community all of that but ultimately it isn’t it is what do those the people who are building the plan feel is most important and needed to focus on. OK, OK. Does, does, does this process include small groups? Like, can you, do, do we, do we ever send off a small group to think about this and a small group to think about that and then we come back together, or, or no, is it all, is it all a collective? No. No, um, so, so actually, although you just mentioned kickoff, so we’ve really actually talked about and we’ve already talked about almost all the stages of this because you kick off a lackluster that’s the problem. That’s the problem. It’s they’re all connected. They’re all connected. OK, well, they’re interconnected. OK, good. So we’ll, we’ll still go, we’ll still go through them, but, but, so, yeah, so can you have small groups working and then coming back and reporting and OK. So one of the things that we do at the retreat, which is a part of like planning and prioritization, which is those 3rd and 4th stages, is to start to reflect on what was learned in um in the discovery work and and that we usually do that in small groups. And we’ll have, you know, we’ll do a kind of, we’ll do a SWAT that is a kind of breakout, you know, like where you’ll say, OK, one group needs to talk about strengths, and one group needs to talk about challenges, one group can talk about opportunities and so you put that all on these, you know, you have people define, let’s define SWAT for folks. You have, you have a big jargon jail problem. Big, big, I mean, you’re still in jail from, uh, OCR or ROCR RACI ACI. So, all right, SWAT is, uh, you’re, you’re evaluating strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats, something like that. It’s a little SWAT, isn’t it? Isn’t that, isn’t that SWAT? Yes, that is, yes, that is a SWAT. OT SW you don’t really talk about threats. Our process, but we, but we do talk about strengths. We do, so we sometimes call it a sorry, now you’re really going to send me to jail because we call it a sore where you have some, it’s more of a positive, uh, positive 10 really? Oh, that’s interesting. Wait, so I mean there are threats. I mean threats is not a bad word. There are, there are potential threats like that you know we look at weaknesses. Weaknesses or concerns, risks attrition, staff attrition, maybe staff attrition has been a problem. That’s a threat. All right, weakness. All right, well, or weaknesses or risks, weaknesses or risks or threats. All right, all right. So we got like sore road, whatever. All right, yeah, all right, I think it’s strengths, opportunities. Yeah, it’s funny. I don’t know what all these stand for. But it’s, it is a positive based type of, um, type of, you know, conversation where people come together and, and think about it though there are different tables, each table is working on one of these questions, so that is one way that we do. Um, we do breakout rooms and the, the, you know, breakout groups. The, the really fun part of that is at the table you might get somebody who joined the staff last year and then another person who has been on the staff for 10 years and, and so it’s a chance to not only talk about uh what are the strengths but also to hear from each other about how the organization has changed and some of what’s happened over time. So it’s really pretty cool. I’m, I’m curious about, uh, Renee Rubin Ross, uh, Triple R. Have, have you always been a, a planner, like as a child? Were you a, a planner, organizer type? Oh, that’s so interesting. I think that um what what I um what really interests me is, is frameworks and um thinking about and that’s actually a reason why it has been really fun to write my blog over the past, you know, about 5 years now and now make turn it into a book and think about, OK, uh, each time we do this, we get. I, we get better at explaining it and sharing content, sharing um like how do you go from um the vision to strategies and we have a step by step. So, um, so yeah, so creating, I’m very interested in creating that clarity for people around what’s going to happen next. And was that you in childhood, like your teen years? Were you, were you helping friends understand? What’s coming? Like, take it step by step. Were you that, that, uh, huh, that’s a good question. You’re that kind of kid. Um, I think that I do have a lot of curiosity and I like explaining things and so I was at one point interested in being a journalist, um, and so, yeah, so it’s like asking questions and creating clarity, uh, so. That people feel more comfortable and I think that is a lot about what this process is is being um showing how the process is gonna go so even what we talked about kick off so that people are feeling less of a sense of um concern you know if they’re if they’re new to strategic so you you like were you a comforter you comfort your. In childhood, did you comfort your friends, say, you know, here’s what’s coming, it’s gonna be OK. Are you a comforter? I think that, I think that, um, I, and I write about this in the book a little bit too, is, um, I personally as a kid did not feel so included. And so I think a lot about what is it, what does it mean to be included in something? What does it mean to feel like my perspective is valued and is honored and how for myself, how do I build spaces where people feel that way and for now it’s really around all different kinds of identity whether that’s, you know, me as a white person in in allyship with people of color or you know so around uh race disability. Uh, LGBT, all kinds of identity. How do we build spaces where everybody is honored and respected, and man, that is more needed than ever in, in these times. Yeah. Were you, were you like me, like the last person chosen for the, uh, pickup basketball team or something? I mean, are you kidding? I was hiding on the other side of the, oh, you, you weren’t even, you didn’t want, you didn’t want to play. Alright, I, I, I was definitely, I was definitely geeky, but I could see things that other people, you know, it was like very insightful, and I think like that, like what, what did you see that other kids didn’t see? Um, I guess, you know, power dynamics, who, who is talking, who’s not talking, um, how are people being treated, um, even, but also what, um, what’s the step to find a solution to something, but so you need to find that solution, but you also need the influence, right? to implement, yeah, I’ve got the solution, but I’m not, I’m not one of the cool kids. So people, so people don’t listen to me. All right, we’re very simpatico. I’m mean, like I was a backstage, I was a backstage geek, you know, uh, lighting, audio, worked the, worked the backstage console, cameras, things like that, AVA audio visual, which was, uh, disparagingly in, in, no, I was in high school from 80. What, 74, 76 to 80. Yeah. So, right, 76 to 80. So, I was in AVA, the audiovisual AIDS, but, you know, to, to, uh, to, uh, to make fun of, we, we were, to make fun of us, we were, we were called gay VA, you know, because it was in, in the, in the early 80s, you know, oh, you’re gay, you’re gay, you know, of course. You gotta, you gotta recognize the time, the time that I’m explaining this. So, you know, I was the backstage. So, so you’re saying, you know, you were like, uh, you were, you were not in the, in the, in the cool click either. Like, not like smoking in the girls’ room. That wasn’t you. Um, no. No, and I wasn’t even, I was too shy to even, you know, be the, be one of the theater kids as well, you know. Well, yeah, I was in theater, but I was, I was behind the stage. I was backstage, right? I was, I was too shy to even do that, you know, but I have, I mean, I have a lot of empathy, and I really think about in these times, how to design and so that everybody has a voice, and that is in a very, you know, that’s again, we, we use technology to part. Participation is a structured way of designing conversation so that we truly if we’re sitting in a large group there’s ways where you sometimes you, you break it down and people can talk in their small groups sometimes you make sure that you, you can talk to everybody in the room that has a, you know, way of weighing in and um people feel that their voices matter and to me that matters and that’s interesting. See that came from you feeling voiceless. Uh, as, and unincluded as a child. So it’s, it’s wonderful that you’re, you’re developing systems and processes that are inclusive. I mean, inclusive is the first word of your book. Right, and I think, right, and I think, I think you know that’s, that’s very common, right? People say they, they’re finding healing in something that was hard for them. And so that’s a real spot of, wow, I want to make, I want to build a different kind of world going forward. Yeah. How about step two discovery, even though, we’ve blended them all together because I keep asking you questions that make you digress, but I’m curious about, I’m curious about these things. How about discovery? What is that? What’s that phase? Yeah, it’s really so as we talked about a little already, that is those those interviews and um and focus groups, um, and sometimes the survey, um, it’s really and there’s a lot of different reasons for doing this. I think like that’s. Something that is important to be clear about is that um you, you get a lot of information, it’s not always actionable, right? And, and that is part of the process and you, you, you need to again, just be transparent about that. Uh sometimes. We’ve had the experience of doing some amazing focus groups where people were thrilled with the organization. We’ve also had some really hard ones where people were not thrilled with the organization. And in either case, you just say, OK, we’re going to be, we’re sharing this back anonymously. We are gonna take this under consideration. Not everything is actionable, um, and that’s kind of what you have to, what you have to do if, uh, if the leadership is, you know, is doing a good job, they will, uh, work on some of the hard stuff that comes up, but it might, they might be working on it already and it also might take some time, you know. OK, and that, that leads to step 3 which is prioritization. Mhm mhm. can’t be everything can’t be the first the first priority of course. Yeah, and I think this question, so this idea in um in top facilitation we do the practical vision there’s different kinds of visioning. One is like what would we need to, what would the world need to look like in order for us to close down, you know, and you sometimes hear these we want a world where every person has enough water. You know, has food to eat and da da that’s great. That’s very inspiring. The problem is like, wait, OK, how do we get from here to that? So the practical vision is much more, um, just what’s going to happen in the next 3, what are we going to do as a result of our actions and, you know, what do we want to see in place as a result of our actions and it’s, it’s powerful. It’s powerful. And what do we want to see in place like over the next 3 years? Correct. What do we want to see in place over the next 3 years? Sometimes 5, and sometimes we will go through the whole thing and then people will say, well, this is really inspiring, and we said 3 years, but it’s actually more like 10, you know, and that’s OK. I mean, but at least you kind of know where you’re going and you know. So the kinds of things that come out, it would be like um more funding sources, um, um, serving, you know, another serving additional clients in X area, um, a very satisfied staff with higher salaries and different kinds of things. Those are some like just on one hand I mean there’s there’s many different things that come out of this but um basically that the organization is um has more sustainability and stability and that people feel good about working there and feel good about the work. What about the funding of the strategic plan? Should that shouldn’t that be a part of the strategic plan? How are we going to fund the, the increased salaries, the additional, the additional positions? Shouldn’t, shouldn’t fundraising, funding it, just how we’re gonna pay, how are we gonna pay for the strategic plan? Shouldn’t that be a part of the strategic plan? Yes, and you just reminded me, um, that, um, so a couple things. So first of all, when we do this work, one of the things we do in discovery is we do a fiscal review, and that is. Looking at the past 3 years, um, what are the, what are the budget trends and it’s reflective, like a small small group conversation with often with like the board, treasurer and CFO, executive director, we create a report that we then talk about at the retreat. So, um, so that planning is like the foundation of planning is understanding the finances of the organization. Uh, you’re not understanding every line item, but you know what is the general trend for this organization? OK, so that’s one thing and then yes, we, there’s, there always needs to be um part of the plan that is that focuses on, uh, on funding when that doesn’t. Occasionally that won’t come up and I will say, OK, as a good, you know, consultant, I feel my responsibility is to tell you that you need to make sure that this plan includes some, some goals around funding just to, to be, this is not just program, this is how exactly what you said, Tony, how are we going to fund, um, the, the work that we want to do otherwise implementation is gonna fall flat if we don’t have the money to fund the plan. Then what’s the point of having the plan because we can’t execute it because it requires more money than we can, than we have a plan to raise. All right, I feel like, all right, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna persevere with the 12345, even though I brought you in all kinds of different directions. Um, I think we’ve been more like 5132, you know, that’s OK, but that’s why it’s a spiral because each, it’s an iterative process. I saw it is, it is a spiral. Yes, it is a spiral, um, so planning, planning is your 4th, planning is your 4th step. Is there anything that we haven’t said about plan? I mean, this is, is this the creation of the plan. Um, that is where you start to get into your goals. Is this a day and a half retreat basically. Um, I would say, yeah, the retreat is, is about, is focuses on prioritization and planning, OK? And, and, and then the planning, which is planning is really, um, starting to work on those goals. That it continues through, um, that continues after the retreat as well because you usually draft your goals in the in the retreat, but like a lot of things you they may need some work, um, some additional work. Do you drill down to, uh, either OKRs. Which is objectives and key results or KPIs. Notice how I define everything, key performance indicators. Do you drill down to OKRs or KPIs, sometimes not, not at the retreat, but yes, we do have, we have worked with organizations that that’s the way they work and that’s what they want, in other words, I think dashboards are, I think. OK, so what overall you need a system that you are going to implement. Don’t make it too complicated. If you have a 20, if you have a 50 page document that you are not gonna, that’s just gonna sit on your shelf, it’s not the right system, OK. However, if you have a dashboard that where you can, um, easily say. Uh, yellow, green, or red, and you know what that means for each goal, that’s great. That is, you know, then you can see how you’re doing on your plan and what you need to work on next. So it’s, it’s really what is the. Culture of your organization, what kinds of things do you track? Do you need to strengthen your systems that may be something that comes out of the plan, right? And, and what’s gonna be useful for you that isn’t gonna feel so bur you plural, that isn’t gonna feel so burdensome. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Do you have a thought about OKRs and KPIs and, and all of that? I have, I have clients who have worked with both. I, I’m agnostic between OKRs and KPIs. I mean, I, I go along with whatever the, whatever the client wants to implement or whatever, you know, because I’m, I’m a narrow niche. I’m just doing planned giving fundraising in, in most cases. In most cases, that’s it. So, you know, I’m happy to contribute OKRs and KPIs if, or, or I should say or instead of and. If that’s what the system they work in, then I’ll be happy to contribute. Yeah, I don’t, uh, it, I mean, uh. Yeah, I, I can’t say that I have a choice. I mean, not that, not that I don’t have a choice in what they do. I don’t, I can’t make a choice between the two. I don’t see one being better than the other. My estimation, my limited role in participating in these with clients. Yeah, and I think it sounds like you have a similar approach which is all right, how do we build on in, you know, as a consultant, how do I build on what you already have and make, you know, what we’ve created make sense to in terms of the, the way your system is set up. So yeah, I just want, you know what, I just want to get out and start talking to folks about planned gifts for the, for the, for the for the organization. That’s whatever we could do to get start conversations. And, and reduce the, reduce the lead time and the lead burden, the better. So whatever I need to contribute to, yeah, I’m, I’m, uh, well, I’m either building on what they have. It’s usually very little because I’m usually inaugurating a planned giving program. So I’m helping them start from scratch. We’re identifying top prospects and what the plan is gonna be for each of those, and then the tier two prospects and what the plan is for that group. So, uh, there’s usually very little to build on. OK. In, in their planned giving. All right. OK. That brings us to our 5th step, implementation, which we covered in the 1st step. Is there anything more you want to say about how this needs to be a living document or maybe you just wanna re-emphasize that it does? Have to be, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that, um, I, that’s great. I do want to emphasize that that it does need to be a living and I think that the, the idea that um This is gonna, you know, I think going back to what I said before, which is like knowing at the beginning that um that you’re not going to go to the place where all problems are solved, right? That there will be that new questions will come up. On the other hand, um, the positive of this is you you may have a lot more focus in your work and just going back to Um, SOS Meals on Wheels, when I was finishing the book, I reached out to them again to say how, you know, it’s been a few years, how did things go, and the executive director shared, well, what happened was that he started to get in this through doing this process, he started to think more about strategic opportunities and so in 2024 he had someone who came to him and was applying for a different. Different role and ended up being the director of advocacy and was really really excited about that and then with everything that happened in 2025 this person became invaluable in uh in make in fun making sure that funding sources were um were secured or were saved and you know he said that some of the some of what happened with this role was. Actually just preventing it wasn’t getting new funding it was just preventing funding from being lost but that all that never would have happened if he hadn’t been thinking about what is gonna happen next and how can I start to look ahead versus being so reactive um so that so there’s some shifting in thinking that happens just by going through the process. Triple R. Renee Rubin Ross. That’s her. That’s her. You’ll find her company at the Ross Collective.com. Connect with Renee on LinkedIn. Renee, thank you very much for sharing. It was perfect. Great, great explanation so much. This is so fun to talk about. I, I can talk about it forever. Unfortunately, we only have 49 minutes, but, uh, but no, I love, no, but your enthusiasm and the way your eyes light up sometimes when you, your eyes get big when you’re making some bold points like, yeah, that’s right. I love it. I love it. Love it. No, your, your, your passion for the subject comes out. It’s, it’s a pleasure. Thank, thank you. All right. Next week, sell your nonprofit. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.