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Nonprofit Radio for July 6, 2018: Peer-To-Peer Peek & Poverty Porn

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Noah Barnett & Kenny Kane: Peer-To-Peer Peek
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares an overview of community-driven fundraising. How do you plan for, inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from CauseVox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Poverty Porn
Amy Sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping, while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN).

 

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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into righteous, sardonic ous if you expected me to smile when you say you missed today’s show peer-to-peer peak, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares an overview of community driven fund-raising how do you plan for inspire and activate your supporters? They’re noah barnett from causevox and kenny kane with testicular cancer foundation and poverty porn. Amy sample ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively she’s, our social media contributor and ceo of the non-profit technology network, and ten tony take two a big lump of thanks responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telling by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, here are noah barnett and kenny. Kane from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference hashtag is eighteen ntc where the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits i guess now are noah barnett and candy cane. Noah is head of marketing for causevox and candy cane is, you know, the testicular cancer foundation. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for having us, this’s. Great talent. Yeah. No it’s. Great. Not that in ten things. Not great. It’s. Exceptional. Yeah. It’s. Exceptional. Thank you. And ten. Thank you. All right. Your workshop topic is community driven. Fund-raising how do you use peer-to-peer to cultivate dahna relationships and reach new donors? That sound familiar? Yeah, absolutely. We just wrapped up our session. We’re already done. Yeah, we’re all done outside. Yes. Yeah, we’re on the downswing. So this’s the after party’s victory last put both put it well, community driven fund-raising let’s, start with you, let’s. Start close to know what’s what’s not being done quite right. That non-profits could do better. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is we’ve gone through a few shifts in fund-raising we went through this idea of there was, like, localized fund-raising back in the day, and then we went to mass fund-raising where we basically didn’t differentiate any of our appeals, we sent all that out. And now today, like, i think there’s a fundamental shift where we’ve moved into what we call the connected economy, where the lines between digital and offline are starting to blur, and that requires a shift in how we approach fund-raising and we see kind of a playbook for the connected economy is community driven. Fund-raising okay, b i like the way you you sort of set this up for us the lines between online and the physical world and our real life are blurring indeed, yeah, okay, so we’re bringing these things together? Yes, okay. Peer-to-peer community driven. Okay, yeah, we’re calling it the connected economy because we’re just connected to anybody anywhere, at any time, through technology and our lives are more connect xero never. So why shouldn’t our causes b similarly should should we be similarly connected to our cause is exactly through our community. Exactly. Okay, kenny, anything you want to add? To the start up? Yeah, i would just say that you know what? The testicular cancer foundation were really big on storytelling and creating compelling stories that resonate with our audience? Not only, you know, as someone who’s been through it as a caregiver myself, but, you know, we try to put ourselves on the other end of the computer screen or the phone. What have you where these stories will compel people to act compel people to donate compel people that take action? Okay, let’s, stay with you. You’re right, your description says and in fact, in bold face, your description says that you will share with us exactly how to do this. How did so where where should we start? Where we’ve been, you know, everybody sees peer-to-peer well, let me take a step back, my ok to synonymous eyes peer-to-peer and community fund-raising or you guys drawing a distinction between those two? Yeah, we’re definitely drawing in this sham. Please set. Educate me. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is what we’re calling the umbrella that lays over all the various aspects of fund-raising where your community of supporters are actually the key. Driver of success in the campaigns here, it appears your war is a tactic inside of that larger exactly and so in community driven fund-raising there’s kind of a scale of the different types of things that qualify as that that moves from organization led meaning, like the organization is starting a campaign like e-giving tuesday campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an annual campaign all the way down to supporter initiated, which could be i’m wanna raise money for cancer. And i’m choosing to do that for the testicular cancer foundation. But i decided, as a supporter to do that, he didn’t created environment for me to do that was organic. Okay, thank you so well. Refrain from making those two synonymous. I’m being too narrow. Choosing one method. One tactic. Okay. All right, exactly how kenny. Where where did wish we get started? We yeah, so appealing. But i don’t know where to get going. Sure. So in this rolling in my last role, which was a broader young adult cancer non-profit called stupid cancer. The same rules apply. So you have people who are affected by cancer? Cancer was huge. Yes. Did you have in north, like millions of kids and engaged around. Um, i know you’re probably right way did pretty well. Yeah, it still exists. They’re still there. Still hammered away at it. He’s going to take a little he’s, one of the co founders of super cancer. Yeah. Ok, so? So the long story short is that my father was diagnosed at age fifty with testicular cancer, which put me on a path towards can frat advocacy in my early twenties. And about two years ago, my friend matt first learn who’s, the founder of testicular cancer foundations and eighty want move from new york latto austin i said, sure. Oh, and i’ve taken over testicular cancer foundation. Okay, but getting back to you know that the same rules apply where we serve people who are in a a disadvantage spot going through cancer. You know, whether it’s a survivor, the patient, the caregiver who is helping the person caregivers often forgot. Yes, characters need to take care of them. So i was here to be coddled and cared for one hundred percent. That was made. Uh, so what we do is we see these people go along a path of being recipients of the mission. Being beneficiaries of the mission, and then they come back, you know, to three years out and, you know, they decide they want either run a marathon or they want to create a cancerversary party cancerversary is a really big milestone where on the, you know, annual date of their diagnosis or when they finish treatment which everyone they choose people will give back, and typically they get back to the non-profit that help them? You know, i think it’s probably similar in all chronic health. I know what i know. An oncologist office where they have a bell, you ring the bell, your final treatment? Yeah, i’ve seen a bell if tina got probable. Yeah. It’s a great milestone, you know, on and i had my own i’m sympathetic to caregivers. I mean, i had some sense of it before this, but during the summer this past last year, summer and in the fall so october, my mom was declining and i was my mom. My dad and i were were caregivers and just watched her, and then she actually died early october of twenty seventeen, so i it was became even more became even more aware of how. You need to take care of yourself. I know. It’s just one component of what testicular cancer is doing. Share the caregivers. You know, i often think that they have to be selfless. Andi, can’t you cannot give up your own life, teo, give another to get to another. You’ll burn out there’s a lot of self care that goes into your caregiver. So when we talk about the community aspect of community and fund-raising, you know, and i’m so let the host tigress i’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry about mom. Thank you. Host back-up kottler disgust like, welcome to the show cubine xero all week so community german fund-raising candy cane is goingto yeah, so the same rules apply so people go through this process, they come back and for every person who was perhaps turned away from the person going through this acute episode of, you know, not episode, but a stretch of cancer treatment. What? Not whether somebody wanted to give them food or take them to the doctor’s appointment person kind of turned away community driven fund-raising is a great way to really activate your community of people who wanted to help you and in the past, we have created opportunities for fundraisers to convert into things like travel scholarships to a patient conference. So if you’re this arrive, er, you could fund-raising within your community to raise money for travel reimbursement, so it’s not necessarily scholarship, is a little bit more democratic of a process scholarship can get a little tricky. So this skull, this reimbursement program that we did it stupid cancer actually allowed the people around the person affected to help fund their way to the conference while doing ah e-giving back to charity, getting the tax benefits all that. But it was just a really nice way of recognizing what that person had been through. It’s time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is the digital donation revolution. You’re online donors have high expectations of you because of the swift transactions that they enjoy at amazon. Zappos, even some banks, the digital giving bar has been raised. How do you get over? Get the digital donation revolution it’s on the listener landing page, tony dot m a slash pursuant radio now back to peer-to-peer peak and then so what’s the broader lesson for our listeners in small and midsize shops. But know anybody? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is just a reframing of how we approach raising money and building awareness for the causes that were advocating for okay, bye, basically recognizing the true value that every person in your non-profits community and as a community of supporters, whether they’re known or unknown supporters of your organization, typically we look at it from just a financial perspective. And so what community room fund-raising says, is that it’s not just about the money, that supporter khun give you its about their influence in the time they can give you a swell? And in the connected economy, the influence that a supporter has is actually more valuable than it’s ever been before, because brands are being kind of blocked out of feeds, whether it’s, facebook, it’s becoming really difficult for non-profits to reach any new people. And so by turning inward and saying, how can we actually empower our supporters by inspiring, activating and rallying them? Latto actually be the fundraisers for organization, ok, how do we get? How do we activate this within our own organization way we need to be thinking through sure, who should be. In the team discussing, i feel like we’ve spent enough time on motivation, what are some steps? How do we get started? I’m interested, but i don’t know how to organize myself. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, i think community german fund-raising is just like a lens on how you approach fund-raising and so i think it’s important to have non-profit leadership buy-in but also a fund-raising team in general and communications because communities and fund-raising is basically saying, we’re going to inspire people in our community becomes supporters rather than guilt them, then we’re going to activate those people that have true potential to become fundraisers and advocates for our cause instead of and we’re not trying to convince people to do that. We’re just activating the potential that’s already, and they’re already exists. Exactly, and they were rallying them together so fundraisers usually see raising money and reaching new donors as their responsibility. Community driven fund-raising says no it’s, actually your job to be a player coach and basically see your community is a valuable asset to helpyou fund-raising help you grow your impact, help you reach new donors, but i’m gonna ask you again. But how do we get? Started? I mean, maybe is that identifying certain people to maybe seed the program. I understand you’re not throughout the life of the pregnant thing, okay, you do something, you do something, but we need some seeds. Yeah, i think what we do is all we always advise people to understand the different stages of community fund-raising and so the first stage is inspiring. And so as you look at your current fund-raising whether it’s an event, whether it’s a male piece, how do you look at that piece and see it from a lens that you’re not trying to convince someone or guilt someone to gives your cause? We’re actually trying to inspire them and because inspiration leads to sharing and action. Okay, so so, yes, we wanted to share exactly. And then inside your current supporters, which is the second stage, which is activation, identifying key supporters that are ready to do something more. And so one of our customers world bicycle relief every time someone donates at that moment of inspiration that they’ve someone’s been inspired to support the cause, they want to provide a next step toe activate them to actually be an advocate or a fundraiser for the cause and so it’s something as simple as that by they implement this new program and they’re just asking new donors if they want to do more and presenting the opportunity. And if you apply the commuter and fund-raising methodology, you could find things across your current fund-raising program where you just shift your mindset to be how it can we make this more community focus rather than organization driven it’s sort of empowering them to indeed, i’m just adding another i mean, you’re talking about no inspiring them so that they share and then they take action. Yep, i guess i’m calling it empowering them and giving them well in power and giving them permission and maybe some tools. Two work with yeah, right, the backdrop is shaking video would be stable, it’s not going to fall, but it shook. I would have to say that, you know, historically, we’ve created fund-raising or maybe you donate twenty dollars, to yourself so that you don’t share this fundraiser with a zero balance the same rules apply to when you’re launching a campaign, you really need the buy-in have trusted ah, folks in your, you know, in your group people that, you know will create a buzz, and you certainly don’t want to launch it on deaf ears, right? Yeah, with xero balance, etcetera. You mentioned storytelling earlier, you seem to make a point of how important that is. How does that help us? I guess at the first stage that noah was describing inspiring the community, i think i think it contextualized is and provides insight into your motivation as a fundraiser. How do we start telling these stories? I want to get into the nitty gritty here, so, you know, obviously we’re up against the algorithm of any given social media platform and, you know, you could do it whether it’s, tio email or through, you know, social post, but really providing, you know, maybe a before and after photo in my case, where people are, you know, going through treatment and they come out with a smile on their face, that’s the best case scenario and just really humanizing it. You know, we talked a lot in our session today about being human throughout the fund-raising process, i think it’s really easy to get kind of technical and robotic about it and just create opportunities. For people that self serving, you know, creative latto fund-raising page and then never to be heard from again. I think. Causevox and, you know, i know. Using causevox. We aim. Tio certainly create opportunities for more than that. So you actually have a relationship with the non-profit as you’re going through the fund-raising fund-raising stages and and finishing the campaign about empowering people tell their own stories so that it doesn’t it’s not coming from the organization, but giving them the option to create a two minute self didio or log on their own power way actually saw this firsthand so and ten is a non-profit who hosts this conference, and what they did was they said, how can we raise money for scholarships so that people could come to this conference for free? Who can afford it? And one of the biggest things they did was they said, you know, we have ten board members that have influence and ability to do this and so let’s empower them to tell the community why ntcdinosaur others to them and fund-raising on our behalf, and so they were able to raise over eighteen thousand dollars, and i just saw the banner over there and there’s, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy different donors that came together to help support that campaign, and all they did was they said, hey, boardmember is ur supporters were goingto activate you to tell your story on our behalf, and they did it with did videos they wrote like testimony is different content, and so they didn’t say one thing to the other again. Theyjust activated those supporters and said, hey, can you share your story with the community and raise money on dh. They were able to do that and there’s people at this conference because of what those board members did in the stories that they told you. Excellent. So so starting capital so we’re activating people that they share a men that they take the act take the action of, of actually beginning fund-raising fund-raising on their own as we’re okay. It’s rise. Where going through this process of empowering, i would have described how you describe it. Do we need to circumscribe it a little bit boundaries around it? For listeners, that might be a little leery of maybe the the power they were transferring too much power. Yeah, we’re powering know it talked a lot about this during the session about giving, you know, the non-profit needs to give up a certain degree of control. You want to talk about that? Yeah. And i think that’s why? The third phase of commuters fund-raising is about rallying, not controlling. And so i think our default is well, how do we control this? How do we do this? How do we do that? I think in the connected economy, all the powers with the customer and it’s on the non-profit to realize that their supporters have more power than they think. And so they can try to control them. Or they can really say hey, let’s, rally this let’s, support this and help drive this forward, and so i think if you jump to taking a control position instead of how do we actually rally people in the right direction? Um, you’re going to miss huge opportunities really activate your community. You know, this reminds me of the fears that non-profits had around facebook. Oh yeah, allowing people to come it’s been going on for years? Yeah, come on their facebook page. I don’t know if we’re going to allow those car. Yeah, we should have opened commenting and posted. Yeah, well, circling back earlier we were talking about, you know, the storytelling aspect and in the cancer world and again in the probably the chronic illness world of non-profits it’s a beautiful thing when you have somebody sharing their story, whether we are sharing on the behalf, which is most of the time when you see in the comments let’s say they have a rare type of brain tumor or something like that they’ve never met or connected with another young adult with cancer, let alone somebody who has their exact same diagnosis toe watch that unfold in the comment section where now these people are going to be able to support one another, the fact that you facilitated that on the non-profit side, i’s, amazing and it’s only going to contribute to the overall strategy of activation and engagement getting people teo really buy into your non-profit buy-in to your mission. And you showed a great example that stupid cancer had a different name before it was stupid cancer, and it was, you know, this moment when they said everyone calls us stupid cancer because that’s the tagline so let’s actually switch. So he convinced the founder of the organization to switch the name to stupid cancer and make the name of the organ kapin line right and kind of say, you know, hey, like, we’re going to give power to this community that wants to be a part of this and that’s when they saw growth from two thousand two hundred fifty thousand like you saw hundreds of thousands dollars being raised because they just again said, hey, we’re not going to control this. We’re not going to, you know, they would correct people be like we’re not the stupid cancer guys where the i got every one of the other name it wasn’t i’m too young for this cancer and it’s very slavic, every word. But they gave up that control. And then they saw, like the mo mentum in the community like flourish. And i think what was interesting is that still progressed. What their mission, ford wass maybe in ways they never expected or never would have done themselves. But it’s still pushed the mission forward. And i think that’s the opportunity that non-profits small, large, medium all have today. And we see it time and time again with our customers at causevox and in parallel, you know, you don’t get to decide what school your audience is. The same sort of thing with fund-raising storytelling. All the concepts were presenting today, it’s all about the audience and did, uh, what about let’s? Talk a little more about building this into your annual fund-raising plan? Okay, okay, uh, what you’re the experts. I have a plan now, and i don’t feel like i’m sufficiently community driven or or at all community community supported what i need to rethink. Well, not just what we’ve already covered. But how do we get this in my plan? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is fundraisers have like the same playbook, and they just think if they do more of it that there’ll be more successful. Andi, i think that’s why the burnout rate for fundraisers is so significant in our industry is because they feel as though there’s one playbook to run, which is more events, more emails, more mail in wartime decides that they have exhausted that playbook organization. W ell, move onto organization, yeah, try again no more, yeah, and i think what’s also thing is it it creates this window shopping experience where you’re always looking at other non-profits and being like man, if i only had what they have, i would be able to solve and what we challenged our people that attend our session is that you really need to look at the challenges and reframed them. And so we said is instead of saying, okay, i need to do more of these things, it’s saying as part of my annual fundraising campaign, whether other things like we can do and what we provide, it was saying, how about we take a look at our community and see if there’s opportunities that we can inspire our community, activate them and rally. Them to actually help raise more money and reach new donors. Okay, that’s part of our annual can i would i would add that, you know, people listen, this interview who were saying, all right, how do i deploy this? You certainly don’t want to cannibalize anything that’s working for you, so if you raise a ton of money in queue for, you know, don’t don’t suddenly pivot and say, all right, i’m going to try to spread that out for the rest of the year, and then suddenly you’re exhausted by q for but there’s a lot of little things you can do through out the year like being more human, connecting with your audience, giving up the control is we’ve, you know, keep reiterating on just being more of a social entity, you know, that’s kind of what it comes down to is is it’s not a one way communication channel? It’s you know, the feedback goes both ways, yeah, yeah, and i think it’s, just even seeing the potential and being able to create the opportunities were actually saying we’re asking for more things than money, so a quick story i spent six years running growth at an international relief non-profit and i was overseeing growth, but that was communications and development, and so our major gift officers, obviously we’re hard core, like, go after money, cultivate new gifts year over year, and when i told them when i oversaw them was like there’s, other opportunities for these major donors to make a difference, their influence and their time are really valuable, you know, major donors know a lot of other major donors, and so we continually go back and say, the only thing we want from you is your money. We’re only going to get a portion of their value and so weak went to them and said, hey, you know, would you want to do something interesting by, like, leveraging your major gift to run a matching gift campaign? Or do you want to do a employee engagement campaign at your non-profit or do you wantto basically go into the business network that you’re a part of and share this opportunity, teo promote and inspire other people to support the cause? And what we saw is that the more that we got them to invest, their influence and their time, the more money they like. Well, how do you make those ass? You just picked off like three things? How do you make? So i think in the major gifts side, obviously, you know, it involves, like face-to-face conversations and having a conversation and providing examples of what other individuals but that’s, what people do you wantto do this campaign or, you know, activate matching gift? So what do you make those asks? You want to do your own work? Place campaign? Yeah, so i think obviously in major gifts, it’s different because you have a personalized contextual relationship with that individual. And so if you know that they’re a ceo of a company, you can have a dialogue about that and say, you know, how are you engaging your employees to give back as a community, you obviously care and see your legacy as giving gifts into our organization. How is your company doing? And so it’s having a conversation around that, i think in the broader sense where you’re asking a broader audience to do fund-raising is again making sure that you’re not asking everybody and just being like, hey, this is a new way that you can give to our information are give to our organization rather looking for segments of your audience that are ready to do something, whether that means they’re new donors, they’re volunteers, their board members, they’ve been giving monthly for ten years looking for signals that they have the potential to do something and that’s why we say that second phase is about activation because that means they already have the ability to do it. You’re just activating that, and so it can’t just be this broad sweeping thing where it’s like hey, now you can raise money on x y and z on behalf of our cause. That’s not gonna work. You just ticked off a bunch of very good identify irs indeed you are. Whom i who this might be appropriate for kenny, i want to go back to something that you said earlier. The feedback has to be both ways yet not organization too. Everybody correct this so that involved really listening on the organization’s it’s hard. Sometimes you don’t hear things. I mean, you might not. You’re not always gonna hear things you want to hear. Talk about. You know how how an organization khun sort of shift culture in terms of real listening, engagement that way i think i think you guys were just talking about some really important, which is the signals, you know, in a non-profits situation have a lot of people who will come to the table and, you know, people have ideas, people have always do this, you should do that. And, you know, one of the things that we always say is if you don’t pay attention to mission, eh, you know, mission b, c and d, whatever we’ll all fail. So listening is important, you know, for us, the example of changing the name of the organization was kind of a really big undertaking. When you look back at it, i think that you just have to have a qualifying process, you know, kind of ah, multiphase approach to letting feed back into the top and looking at the person who is suggesting it, and kind of like i said, creating a rubric to take me back in and, you know, you have a border directors for a reason. So if the board is providing you with information, obviously it’s probably a good thing that listen to but also people who were out of the core. Of the apple can sometimes ride the most meaningful feedback and again trying to figure you gotta be you gotta be ready to hear that, you know, not only not only listening to your board and also where they’re coming from, what is their motivation for providing this feedback? And if i can have two things that what we did at my non-profit is first and foremost we had to convince the organization that the donors in our supporters actually mattered so much of our head was like, we’re doing great work, and we just need people to give us money. And so what we did was every week we had an hour designated, so we got leadership buy-in where everybody in the organization wrote thank you notes to donors, and so that started to say, hey, we’re going to center on this, and then we started doing what? Like surveying or net promoter scorer type things where we asked, hey, you know, would you recommend our organisation to a friends, family or colleagues? If so, why? Why do you support our organization? And we actually started using their responses in our fund-raising copy because they were telling us why. They support our organization in a way that was specific that we could actually share with others, and they also told us ideas on how we could improve, and so i think the person foremost is you have to cultivate that idea that you’re actually gonna listen because you value that person’s opinion, and second is you just have to ask, i think we asked for money all the time, but we don’t ask for what people think or why they support our organization or how could we improve this organization? How could we reach new people? We asked that question to a small segment of donors. They gave us tons of ideas that we were able to filter throughout our organization. Good dahna we’re going to leave it there, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for having us. You’re not on the you’re not watching the video. They’re both redheads on thei r noah barnett, head of marketing for causevox and can he came ceo of the testicular cancer foundation and cofounder of stupid cancer? And so i have that right way. Three a curveball and you just handled it. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. You get to use overviewing ingratiate something alright, way where he’s trying to get in by the back i’ve been listening sarrantonio twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ninety see this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break, wagner cps in the last two weeks, we had segments on storytelling. You don’t want your storytelling to be so compelling that it leads to restricted gif ts or even or just lots of restricted gif ts regular has you covered their block post is avoiding restrictions from donations inspired by storytelling it’s that wagner cps dot com click resource is then blawg in a moment. It’s poverty porn right now! Time for tony’s take two i have a big lump of listener thank you it’s not segregated it’s not discriminated against by whose name listed first or second or third. And, of course, any discrimination on non-profit radio is benign non video ce discrimination anyway, but we’re not doing that this this week. I am just grateful to everyone who listens to the show supports the show exultant and that i don’t care what platform you listen. What time of day, whether your digital or analog, however, you are listening to the show or supporting the show. Thank you. You make maybe ah, you’re just you’d listen occasionally and you get my insider alerts. So you know who the guests are each week you cherry pick that’s. Fabulous. Take it as you need it. Thank you. To everyone who listens and supports non-profit radio. My video gratitude is that tony martignetti dot com now, let’s, bring in any sample ward. She is our social media contributor and ceo of and ten, the non-profit technology network. Our most recent car, third book is social change. Anytime. Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample ward, dot or ge and at a m e r s ward. Welcome back, amy. Sample word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s. My pleasure to have you back. This is, uh uh. This is the have you been back on the show since and ten since auntie si thie ntc. I don’t think this might be the first time i think it is. I’m pretty sure because i was leaving you alone. Because i figured, you know, there’s clean up to do and thank you’s to sand and lots of stuff. So, um, and then you had a staff planning. Then you have your staff planning time. Yeah. So to two times a year. All of the staff. Because not everyone is here in the portland office. Let me have some remote dafs. Everybody comes to portland for a week together of planning and craft and happy hour and things like that. Wonderful. Yes. I think they call it staff planning, but planning is not all that we dio excellent. Nor should it be, because you’re all together only twice a year. So you have many vulture virtual employees, so congratulations on a wonderful and fun. And i hope from your perspective, successful certainly was for mine. Ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, i think it was a really good year. You think so? Too good. Yeah. I’m good. I’m definitely fun. I know it was fun. I know that’s. Not a question, but we’re doing it for a little more off. Just the fun purpose fundez one is up, there fundez up there, but education and technology, you know. They rank, too, but congratulations, thank you for being part of it again. Thank you. It was my pleasure. We gotta lot. We got thirty interviews for non-profit. Yeah, great, no, thank you. Okay, so we’re talking today about poverty porn. You said this had come up for you in aa, some discussions or members have been raising it. You’ve you’ve been hearing ah, little more chatter about this. Yeah, i think that organizations are organizations have been criticized for participating in poverty porn for years, but i think those have often been organizations that are really, really big operating on an international scale global scale that are maybe more vulnerable to criticism, because so so many people are saying what they’re doing, and they’re raising so much money. And, you know, with all of that kind of spotlight and revenue, i think naturally organizations, regardless of what they dio, are open to criticism of lots of different forms, right? But now i think organizations, they’re starting to see yes, well, you know, maybe criticize those organizations for years, but also maybe we’re a part of that. And what does that mean for us? You know, you don’t just have to be really, really large organization are making lots and lots of revenue off of a single appeal to have some issues with the way your year doing your work, so i think it’s organizations are starting to see that there, maybe starting to ask more questions because they’re getting, you know, the the digital teams who are managing that content are starting to feel like if something does happen, you know, they’re the ones that posted that photo or sent that tweet or whatever and really wanting to figure out how how to navigate what what’s the best way to tell this story? Yeah, andan avoid a potential backlash. Yeah, um, how would you define this? Do you? Ah, i have a way, but i’m going to hear, you know, how would you define poverty porn? I got i don’t have probably an eloquent, succinct definition, but if i was explaining poverty porn, teo an organization i think you know, without knowing whoever we’re talking to what their mission is, you know, poverty point is when you’re who’s may be taking advantage of the difference between the audience you’re calling tau action most often it’s for donations and these people that you are serving in whatever way, instead of maintaining the humanity of everyone involved in that situation and honoring all that all of those people have and really owning the story. About what you do in the power of in this example, their donation, versace trying to exacerbate the difference and the things that are, quote unquote not had about this group that you’re serving and focusing on that discrepancy, i think to me and is really what it’s about you you’re not maintaining everyone’s humanity and then highlighting the service, you provide your instead, maybe kind of further opening divide and most of the backlashes that i’ve seen or, you know, examples of this on the on the web are our images, but could be written off as easy as you can see, right majority video, but a written description could also be oh, totally exploitative or, you know, you have the language that we use to describe communities we could also highlight that that gap that you’re describing, yeah, um, no it’s ah it’s it’s very sensitive, you know, because we are trying to do very good work and we are motivated and our mission statements are or are around help of this vulnerable population, whatever it might be, whatever country it might be. I mean, it’s not a lot of the lot of the images are from abroad. I mean, i see a lot of, like, south america, central america, africa, but it could, you know, it could be right here in the u s to i mean, you could certainly go astray with images and written descriptions of conditions right here, right here in the u s certainly right, but, you know, so where were motivated by the right? Um, in the right directions, but right, but we, uh, you know, it may just be is easy, if, you know, consciousness raising, which is what our conversation hopefully is doing, and certainly a lot of the conversation, you know, like i saw things back too, like twenty, thirteen or so talking about this subject. So i think a lot of it because our motivations are, you know, i always impute good motivations toe non-profits and most people no, there are good, you know, it’s just raising country business. I mean, i think that is there are lots of tactical things that we could talk. Yeah, you’re right, it’s not just, you know, you’re right your underlying the thing that’s really going to create change is that organizations and the individuals in those organizations actually do some, really hard work two to figure out an address and accepts and try and move forward from all the biases that they’re bringing to their work the again, even if their motivation, their intent internally, is field pure and good to them, it could still be coming from a really kind of dangerous place that they are the savior of that community, right? And that in itself isn’t is a bias that’s going to mean you? You cannot create content, whether that’s, you know, photos are writing these descriptions that not coming from that place, right? So i think doing that internal work to say, gosh, how are we, you know, without explicitly like deciding to do this, how are we already coming at this from not the best a place you know, and as an organization, whatever the practices or policies that we have that can help us change that? I mean, you know, if we want to start at the big picture level, don’t think about tactics, things like do every single one of your staff regularly have opportunities to interact with the community members you serve if they don’t, they’re not in a position to speak from a place where they understand the shared humanity, they understand that everyone both inside the organization and those being served all have strengths and weaknesses and hopes and dreams and challenges and are at a place to really, i think, talk about the work anymore, productive way, you know. So even just at that level are you creating opportunities for every single one of your staff to be a part of the community? I think i’m always surprised how many organizations where they say, oh, no, if you work in the office, you don’t ever talk to the community, only our program staff do that. Why would you do that? You know, why would you create this while the silo between the staff talking about the work stopped deciding how the work is going to be done and the people participating in that work? That doesn’t make any sense to me? And those opportunities need to be more than photo opportunities do no the right there’s, lots of examples, you know, it has to be meaningful, you know, there’s one of the iconic ones, i guess infamous one’s better better than iconic. What if this one’s is, you know, eyes ellen. Too generous in nairobi with lots of kids around her and, um, there’s one of each year in wearing the red nose with liberian children around him. I know so. And what i mean, i think it’s really smart to bring that up, eh? Because now people now everybody listening to our conversation, i can think of the same kind of image, but also that i think totally the kind of thing that organizations i would think to dio with staff, right is like, okay, here, the folks that we serve here’s some of quote unquote us let’s take a photo together and inevitably, these photos like the two you just suggested when you’re years ago, like ellen and nairobi or add in liberia it’s like here is this person in the center of all these other people, and you are both figuratively and literally centering yourselves instead of centering your community. This is now not a photo about those people. This is a photo about you on dh that is kind of the epitome of what we’re talking about here, right? Is that you have come in to save them your services, you’re donations, you or whatever it is. Are literally the center instead of this community truly getting too to be in that place. So i think that’s a really great, like daily kind of check, check and balance for yourself when you’re when you’re looking at two weeks or you’re looking at the way you describe something that you’re looking at, a photo you can just say is this photo centering the people that we’re serving? Or is this photo about us? Um and there are certainly times where photo should be about you, but that doesn’t mean that the photo should be you surrounded by people you served. Maybe then it’s a photo of just your staff at, you know, the conference table looking on something or if you know what i mean it it’s going to be about you make it on ly about you and not you, in contrast to your community. Very good point about figuratively and literally making the individual the center surrounded by the community in need. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. See, that’s why that’s? Why we have you on? Because i looked at the same picture was an idea that did not occur to me. But that’s the brilliance of of aa expert. You know, lots of flecks of expert well, in this case, we have one expert and me, but other other people contributing exper, having experts contribute that’s what i mean, okay, you think about this, you know, it’s value of having multiple multiple opinions and and eyes on something very it was very well said, thank you for that. Altum i was thinking you by where i wasn’t thanking me for what i just said, that that was, obviously, you’re welcome. I always had a defective. I wouldn’t. I would probably not considered an expert perspective, but it is an opinionated one. You bring a lot of insight and used him to the show. Sabat yeah, you know, another part of the problem is that these images, their descriptions, you know, that it’s one dimensional, you know, right? If i’m here or if you swoop in with your donation from the united states that’s going to solve the problem, the child will no longer have empty hands reaching out, you know? And we just have a minute, but weaken, obviously we can keep talking beyond the break. Poverty is multidemensional mean, it includes govern the local community. The local community needs to be empowered, it includes well, and i think thinking about those layers, and we can talk more about this. Those layers of change that need to happen are are important. But also, as we continue to see, the kind of donor base of america change as boomer’s got older and millennials, you know, come into more of the majority in the world of social action that there is also your community. Your audience for this kind of message also knows there are multiple layers and maybe that immediate kind of got reaction of oh, my gosh, this crisis just happened, i want to respond, is there. But if you also, if that’s the hole that you do, you may not be really seen as a sustainable organization undressing all of those layers of change and i think that’s a huge opportunity. No, you’re seeing yourself. Yes, tio. One dimensionally. All right, let’s, take this break. Tell us i have a new tell. Oh, simoni yl for you, quote tell us has allowed my business to support my favorite charity without even feeling the pinch of writing a check. I am donating money every month that i would have spent on credit card processing anyway. Also, their customer service is far better than we’ve ever had. End quote, the businesses you refer are going to love tell us one hundred percent satisfaction among the businesses that you’re among among the business is working with them. Get started with the video at tony dahna em, eh slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to poverty porn with very insightful example. Ward um, yes, and we were just saying, yeah, it it narrows that the viewers focus to just donate and there’s a lot more that you can do. I mean, and, you know, if we’re talking about bonem poverty and hunger, i mean that that could reach to, you know, advocacy around global climate change policies, which you’re never going to get from these one dimensional ideas. No, and this i mean, i also don’t want to that folks listening now to our conversation up for this idea that every single tweet, every single picture, every single email appeal needs to talk people through. How do you know this action today is connected to this action in this all the way up that’s not what we’re trying to recommend that every single one of those has to include all of that context, but it should always include the context of what really you’re asking for if you are asking for donations for a really immediate need, the donation is still not the actual transaction of those medical supplies. Most likely right? So so at least framing it truly in what it is people are donating. Teo, was there an earthquake? And you’re well, these donations are in part to buy medical equipment and to support those medical teams administering it. Well, that’s also really great story. Who are these medical team? What kind of expertise are they bringing? You know, you don’t just have to focus on transactions because when you do, you make both the donor feel like they’re participating and transaction and the people receiving this support hyre the end of a transaction, i don’t think anyone really means for that i like, you know, back to that good intent, a key intent is not impact, but also even even in this case, i don’t think that’s really what you intend, you know it, so so raise that up and don’t focus on, oh, this is just like your example, before i really like that, you know, now these hands are full does not what happens in here, you know, and so really talkto what is happening and at a a tactical level, you know, there’s, this is opportunity for terrific content. No, you can direct people to interview, and i was talking about fresh content and depth of content there you can tell the story elsewhere, so the tweet is brief. The tweet is briefed, the facebook post, the ad, whatever is brief, but then there’s a link to you know, the back story back-up more to medical in this example who these medical teams are, you haven’t instagram account well, you could do you know instagram stories with either you know, actual quick video interviews update, facebook live there like there’s a ton of rich content you could have when you move to trying to really own what you do and what your story is. Instead of trying to focus on this idea of really, really immediate really, really fast transaction because that’s not the humanity that you want to be representing anyway. Yeah on and and wrapped wrapped up in all this eyes, you know, the idea of that, the important idea that the donations air not sufficient while while they’re necessary and we do need them, they’re not going to solve the problem alone exactly. The bigger context, you know that, and i love your idea, the hero you’re not talked about this a little oaky going well, just you, khun, you can actually then shift the spotlight to some of the work that you’re doing. Like you’re saying, you know, show videos of some of the programs and some of the care that you’re actually giving, you know you can you can shift the lens back to you as the provider, you know, when it’s all in the bigger context, it’s a part of the bigger falik well, i think there’s two things to think about here one is that we talked about before any campaign, whether it’s a fundraising campaign, our advocacy or whatever it’s never gonna have only one ass, of course, every you know, kind of sector best practices. You only have one ascot a time. But once someone takes that action, they have made the donations. They have called their senator. Whatever you need to be ready with another ask because they were just willing to do what you ask them to do. You might as well tell them that to do something else right. So instead of having, you know, here’s eight different things, please do what you want. You give people want and when they do it, you take them to the next step. Then you take them to the next step and you just keep going. And well, from a tactical perspective definitely think about it that way. And from a content perspective, justus you’re recommending i love that get people hooked in and then have them kind of watch the whole thing. Play out right. Continue to see how the work is happening on the other thing to think about, i think, is that there’s a lot to be sad out in the sector right now about how you know there are certain changes in fund-raising that people are more connected to topic than necessarily a single organization that that they’re going to donate to over a year over year, you know that they care more about the topic and whoever is maybe doing something good on that topic is who gets their money. This is a great way to keep people actually hooked to your organisation instead of floating between organizations in the same cause because you’re not just getting them to have a single transaction with you because it was immediate and compelling and kind of hyre fast way for them to feel connected, you have then continuing to connect them to you with these with content, of course, but also with those continued actions, ways where they’re getting deeper and deeper into this and feeling like, yeah, i donated but also high, you know, submitted short message for the medical l came to provide to those children and, you know, they’re starting to actually feel like they are a part of your work, which is the whole goal of this instead of feeling like, oh, i feel relieved that i sent my ten dollars, for that organization, and i don’t even know who they were because it was just the organization i saw on facebook, right? So really shifting how you frame all of this is, of course, as we’re talking about today, you know, getting you out of this trap of poverty porn, but it’s also serving you to build rial community with these supporters? Yeah, it’s the how many guests we’ve had on urging the relation a ll over the transactional that’s you you put a lot of depth into it, but you and i have talked about it and other guests as well. That’s the way to stand out, you know, as you said, that’s, the way to bring people to your cause and keep them there while the ah a lot of a lot of activists and donors are you’re saying maur, mission oriented versus organization oriented. But you know, if you can draw them into your work, they’re right they will stay with you. It’s the relation act it’s the relationship of course. All right, you know, another another facet of this is that all you know, these regions are not monolithic. You know, all of central america, south america and africa are not poor on dh and needy and destitute, you know, there are thriving cities, there’s, beautiful, rich history, culture toe all of these, you know, to all the african nations and all these other parts i’m talking parts of the world i’m talking about. So, you know, e i think you want some balance there too, tuley and i think there’s argument to be made that there are can definitions that we had organizations we as americans, we as white folks can put onto what is ah, community experiencing property or what is a geographic area, that it lacks access to resources that are not going to be a shared definition by the people living in those communities. And i think that really important thing to remember as organizations trying to highlight the service you’re providing or the way that you’re serving that community, is that your definition of of their needs and comparatively to you you know how how quote unquote in poverty they are is going to feel different in their own lived experience, so finding ways where they can authentically talk about again, back to what was said at the beginning, you know, their hopes and dreams, their challenges, their life and the way that they benefit or appreciate the services is going to feel far truer and position your organization into their community than it is for you to say from the outside, you know, look at this community, we’ve kind of defined as needing this and here’s how we’re going to fix, you know, back to that idea that are you centering you and and the organization are you really centering this community? How how are you doing that? Recognizing that part of deciding you know that a certain community is or is not in need is part of that? We’re gonna leave it there. Any simple word? Excellent. Thank you so much for talking about the tony. I know it’s a a scary topic for some, but i think it was a good conversation. I absolutely agree, and we’re not scared to be a little provocative. No, not at all. Thank you. She’s. Amy sample ward at amy, sample ward, dot or ge? And at amy, r s ward, next week, two more from the non-profit technology conference. See sweet cross talk and capacity call out if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profit ofthis, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. 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Nonprofit Radio for March 2, 2018: Your Messaging Campaigns & Are You Cheating At Social?

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d grow a blepharoplasty aroma if i opened my eyes to see that you missed today’s show your messaging campaigns. We’re on our phones all day messaging is there, too, in multiple forms how do you exploit messaging as a marketing channel? Michael sabat with that message shows you the way are you cheating at social buy-in likes buying followers buy-in emails, buying ads buy-in content are those cheating in the social networks to the cheaters? Win our social media contributor and the ceo of inten shepherds you she’s amy sample ward tony steak too. You got us out of sixty nine, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing to radio by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers with your cps dot com and tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome michael sabat to the show. He has worked in the messaging space for a decade, he started working with sms campaigns in two thousand eight at mobile commons, he was there first account manager and helped hundreds of organizations launch thousands of sms campaigns. Recently, he started at message, a platform that helps digital directors and digital marketers use facebook messenger for marketing and communications outcomes. He hosts a podcast called the chat bubble about messaging he’s at message at msg and that at message dot com, you’ll find his podcast at the chat bubble dot com he’s michael sabat welcome to the show, michael. Hey, tony, thanks for having me. My pleasure. Um let’s. See, first i got i got, uh i didn’t think to admonish. And i got to mention having your company name start with the at sign it’s a little it’s. A little tough. When when i’m introducing you, you’re at message at ssg and at at message dot com. You comfortable people get that? Okay, totally tricky. But everybody asked me to repeat it. And so it really sinks into there wherever you store memories in your brain. Yeah. So at symbol msg is our logo and that’s the name of the company and the domain is a t m s. G so really tricky for domains really tricky for twitter, but it’s been working so far, okay? I mean, you know, you went into this consciously. I know that i i, um okay, i i didn’t let’s move on. Okay? Everybody knows that the only other thing humane is at mrs dot. Com that’s. Important? Yeah. Good. Yeah. The big push for our company is yeah, we’re sort of moving beyond web pages. Right? And so i’m sort of okay if the girls are a little tricky because we’re saying messaging is the new space no longer the page, but but we’ll get into that. Uh, well, let’s, get to that right now. Okay. Were you, uh, you’re a futurist. We’re moving beyond websites. I’m absolutely a futurist. Okay? Yeah. You know, i major push the major thesis behind at message. Is that the web page which is made up of access times? Why? Right space it’s a page like a piece of paper. What the web has been for the last twenty five years. But as we move everybody being on their phone, you lose that x times. Why? So we go from these incredible twenty seven inch max. Where they’re designing web pages and landscape views. And when people are viewing those, they’re viewing it on a four point nine or a five point five inch phone. And so you actually lose the essence of what is a page, and we are literally squeezing pages onto the phone, okay? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so i’m happy to start here, so but what about, you know, when pages that are now ubiquitous mobile optimized? Aren’t we getting the best? I guess you would say we get the best we can, but it’s not mobile native, is that it? Yeah. I mean, i was joking somebody yesterday and i said that the mobile optimized web page is the horseless carriage of our century. Meaning yes, you can, like squeeze it and you can’t force it by mobile optimized courses than any digital marketer out there will tell you that there mobile page that they’ve made responsive and mobile optimized one hundred times is still converting visitors at one third toe one half a cz well as the desktop version of that same exact page and that’s the high end. So it is just harder to convert somebody whether it’s an e mail acquisition a petition for a donation on a mobile web page. Interesting. Okay, i did introduce us a futurist. I’m glad. You know, i’m glad you self identify as a futurist because i didn’t i didn’t include that. Um okay, let’s. All right. We’re going to come back to this, then. Let’s, let’s, start with fresh out this little x y what do you mean, the x y space? Yeah, just like a graph. Right? When you look at a tv or a computer screen, you are looking at two dimensional space, right? Access times. Why access? And that gives you the size of the page, the number of pixels. And so when your pages, you’re building it for basically probably a math book, laptop, right, and those dimensions. And so you have these nice landscape pictures in all of this is in vogue, right? If you look at a modern website, you have the hero image and you know, you’re scrolling and it’s beautiful as you’re scrolling, you don’t do any of that stuff on the phone like the action’s on the phone is a different type of squirrel, right? It’s happening with your finger on and swiping. And messaging are the key actions on the phone and but specifically back to the space you have, you know, however, many pixels on the laptop and that’s where you’re designing pages for and then you have many, many less pixels on the phone, you just lose the page you literally, like, lose seventy percent of what you’ve built, and you have to squeeze it into the phone. And so of course, it’s not going to perform is well when you’re losing seventy percent of what you built, literally the coordinates, the extends life space and your belief is that supplanting that is the is mobile phone native messaging. Yeah, exactly. You know, i think that the the channels that have worked in the desktop era which we are leaving and going into the mobile era, right, the new device, the new mobile devices primary for personal, not necessarily forward, but for personal you’re using your phone for more things now and yes, of the channels that worked in the desktop era. Specifically, email and pages do not work as well in the mobile era and their staff out the right people behave differently when they open your email on their phone and it’s. Not better than when they open your email on their desktop. People behave differently when they arrive at your website on their phone and it’s worse than when they arrived in the best up. And so, as we move forward, not only would like more phones, but whatever comes next in virtual reality or wherever that new device news space is. Paige is an email i think are going to move into the background on messaging will be the channel that becomes more primary. A cz we move mohr mobile and whatever comes next. Okay, that is perfect. We have take our first break. That’s. A perfect sort of tease, tio. What will pick up messaging becoming? Ah, primary channel. I gotta take this break. Michael, pursuing their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. Here is a romp through the table of contents. Where you taking your donor’s? Three common stewardship stumbling blocks consider the ideal donor experience. Immersive digital experiences making the donor experience a top priority. Next steps. You get this paper, you know, pursuant their data, rich and it’s going to be based on their research, helping you in your stewardship, it’s. Demystifying the donor journey it’s at tony dot m a slash pursuant radio. Now, let’s, go back to michael and your message in campaigns. Okay, sort of consistent let’s pick up where we were. Messaging is going to become the primary channel, is it? Is it already sort of that’s? Another interesting angle on this similar topic is it is already your primary channel. Yeah, personal communication, because we’re on our fund-raising gle day. Yeah, i mean, look, if when i need to tell my wife something or my parents or my friends, i don’t send them an e mail, and i usually don’t call although that’s also on the phone, but messaging is the way you do that, and so we see this, like, break where when you’re at work, you’re on your computer, you’re doing emails, you’re writing email, blast and all of that. When you’re doing something personal, you’re doing it via messaging and or on your phone, and so when you start to take this to howl, non-profit should be thinking about this four people let’s say, for an animal, you know, writes animal welfare non-profit sure, like when people become a supporter of this organization. It’s your work if you work at the non-profit to get people to be supporters and email makes sense. But do you want the people supporting the organization, or do people that support the organization do it because it’s personal to them and the answer is yes, right? Like people donate people get involved, people volunteer people share because they personally care about whatever issue the non-profits focused on and so it’s just a line’s better if you are now talking to something, talking to people on their personal channel when it’s an issue that’s personal to them, okay, i don’t think non-profits are are thinking this way using messaging assed communication channel as a campaign channel. For the most part, i mean, i know you do it, you do a lot of campaigns. I’m not saying it’s nowhere, but, um, we’re trying to shift some thinking here. Um, what how do you how do you characterize messaging the campaign? What are the elements of it that that make it our next primary channel? Yeah, so so kind of the nuts and bolts are that it is ubiquitous, so their arm or monthly active users off the top for messaging app. Then there are monthly active users of the email in the world. Okay, what are the top floor? I don’t know. Hold on. Name the name the top for messaging aps a man putting me on the spot facebook messenger, whatsapp we chat and probably line or kick. Okay, i guess maybe i message although i don’t think they’re coming i message in that stat that’s another okay, okay. I’m not, you know your stuff. I’ll tap your head. You know your way. Gotta shift. We got shit thinking. Okay, so more you call them monthly active users. This is how you’re measuring this is your measure. Well, these air just saying, like, look, the channel is here it’s not, you know, if you were starting your email list in two thousand, you would look at the numbers and you would say, like, you know, there’s many less people emailing than are answering their phone or that are receiving mail. But we’re already at a place where messaging is extremely ubiquitous, the people have arrived on this channel already? Yeah, so yes, it’s new but we don’t have to wait for everybody to show up. We just have to find the right use cases. Okay, now i made you diverge, but we’ll get back to it. So you were you were comparing the, uh the the monthly active users among the four top messaging apse with other communications channel. So please go ahead. Yeah, so? So messaging is kind of the biggest sort of like communication channel out there. It’s also the newest, with the other channels being things like email and phone calls and direct mail. But, you know, talking about the nuts and bolts of the channel messaging messages generally get to people very quickly. We can tell with facebook messenger at least, you know, if people open if people read their messages and the defining characteristic of messaging is that people will respond to it like, literally respond to it and that’s new, indifferent, because when an organization sends out an email, people might clear khun taken action on a web forum. But no one ever responds to an email blast like that. It just doesn’t even make sense, so with this defining characteristic of people opening the messages, people reading them quickly quickly and responding that opens messaging up to address used cases, his existing use cases in a different way for organization. I see this in my personal experience, which is why i wanted to bring this tio our listeners, you know, you’re right. My friends send me more text messages now than they did a year ago. Is it used to be maurey male, based across friends, arranging dinners, whatever on dh. Now there’s more text messages and you respond quickly to a text, then you due to an e mail, which makes me think, is there going to be another? I’m not i don’t want to kill your killers, but what is gonna be another more mohr? Um, hyre hyre responsive radio channel? Yeah, it’s gonna be another one after texting? Oh, absolutely right for sure. We’ve had mail now. Direct mail for a few thousand years. Maybe we have a phone call since harada two years. We’ve had email now for twenty five years and we’ve had messaging for, you know, about ten years that will absolutely because of something coming next, but i think that will kind of push maybe direct mail out, not messaging. Okay, okay. Um, yeah, this is all of this is all very eventually. All right. So if we wanted, if we’re in a small midsize non-profit now, let’s, bring it down to getting more practical. What? What purposes might we in engaged? Messaging teo accomplish for us? What goals? Yeah, so? So, first off, there are a few different messaging channels, the two available to non-profits right now, our sms and then facebook messenger. And they’re slightly different, but similar. Okay, sametz we got a defined term because i’ll put you in jog in jail if you don’t sms that’s. Just simple that’s, right, shorts? There was a safe. A short message, something short messaging service. Thank you. Okay, so, that’s, just your right. That’s your day to day text message. Okay, sms. Remember, be careful. Jog in jail. But it had to slap you in there. Okay, go ahead. Cool. I didn’t. I thought that got out of the jargon jail last year, but i got it. I got to check the calendar again. Eso text messaging. And then, you know, the other channel messaging channel available to non-profits or or anybody to build upon his facebook messenger. And so that is a messaging app that can go on any phone and instead of the technical terms are not relevant. But instead of it going through the carrier, it goes over the internet, okay? And so facebook now, anybody that has facebook messenger on their phone, you can essentially send them a text message, you know, phone to phone over the internet. Okay? And what? White folk, eh? So those those air to most popular tools available to non-profit what might we use this for? What? What? What kind of campaign might we create? Go ahead, get number one use case is acquisition new donors getting new donors, getting new or volunteers or maybe not volunteermatch not donors, but llewelyn, new constituents. Okay. And data. What kind of what kind of data could we hit? What kind of data can we collect through this? Any data the person responds to, similar to a web form, so you can ask the user to respond with their email address or their phone number. You know, if you’re not using sms or their address or any data you want to collect that person will respond to and the response rates over messaging are incredibly high generally like this is a big range, but generally from anywhere between forty percent and eighty percent of the people that start a conversation you asked them for their email will respond with that email address. Okay, um right, who would you be? Okay, so if this is an acquisition campaign, how would you acquire the i don’t know what you need for facebook messages are user i ds or text for sms durney phone numbers. How would you how would you acquire the people toe to send your messaging, too? Yes. So people are always going to message in first, just like people will go to a girl for first before you can ask them for their email in a web form. People are always going to message in first, and this is key distinction between sms and facebook messenger with sms. It works really well to incorporate into media. So aura on event so you stand up on stage and you say, take out your phone and for example, donate to the red cross text haiti to nine o nine, nine, nine and you connect from media from ah, like real world call to action anywhere you could say. Take out your phone type in this number and send us a message that’s how sms works. Okay, look, facebook messenger. We can come back, but with facebook messenger, you can link into the conversations and that’s the distinction. So from an ad from a facebook ad, you treyz goodcompany into a conversation instead of a landing page. Or you could link somebody from any link on the web into a conversation instead of landing base. Okay, so you can from facebook messenger. All right, all right. Um, so you get you have to you’re asking however you’re doing it on the sms side. You’re asking someone to text you first. Yeah, right. Whether it’s in an event or a printed piece or whatever you’re asking for them to take the action first. Is that right, it’s always the case for anything. A messenger you’re saying, click here. So go here to messaging or message us at this number. Okay. Okay. All right. So that was for acquisition. What? What other goals might we have for our our new messaging campaign? Yes. Number one acquisition. And collecting data and data. Yes, number two is direct engagement, so messaging lends itself to kaleb lee and easily be able to open up one on one chats with people. So someone messages in, and i can tell you my theory to this, although other vendors and other systems might have different theories. But someone messages in and we kind of automata scrip. So someone messages in and we say thanks for messaging us. Tell us your email and then tell us your zip code and tell us how much you want to donate. And as people are responding to our messages with their email and there’s a code, we’re saving it just like a web form. But with us, if someone goes off script, so we say, how much do you want to donate? And this happens all the time. How much do you want to donate? And someone responds, i don’t want to donate online where can i mail a check? Or i want to call and talk to somebody. What number did i call when someone responds off script? So we’re looking for that dollar amount and they reply with a question yes, we gonna pull that into another part of the system. And and someone can respond one on one and open a one on one chat with that person. And so the second case here is being able to engage directly in a two way conversation. A cz part of this sort of marketing funnel part of the data collection process. So, so implicit and all this is there’s a there’s a back end that is ah, script back and forth that that is, that is automated. Until some i understand, until somebody goes off script and then they get funneled a different direction. But but if there’s a back end to this that’s all automated carrying on carrying on the conversation with the the new constituent yeah. That’s what any of the tools do? Yes. You sort of need that to be ableto scale it more than just a few people live conversation. Okay. Tool automated conversation. Ok, so there are tools. They’re too old to do that. There are. Okay. Um, what are some of those tools? Can we going name a couple yet? Yes. A great. So, you know, i’m my company of that message. We oughta make these conversations over. Facebook messenger there go. My former company is mobile commons and they automate conversations over sms and they’ve been acquired and they work with a bunch of brands now meeting a bunch of venders all under the kind of software brand there there, there’s some agencies that help people do this. And so one agency would be revolution messaging maurine the strictly political space, but they helped design the campaign, and then one of the newer vendors on the scene works a little differently, but they’re called hustle or relay or ground game. All of these platforms open up peer-to-peer messaging overact, sametz and that’s less automated that’s, a hybrid between automated conversations and one on one conversations and the quick version. There are whole podcast all by themselves, but the quick version is that you need an operator with a peer-to-peer so you need someone to actually send those messages, but they’re software leading that operator through the conversation, depending on how the organisation set it up. Now why your company have you chosen to do facebook messaging and not sms? Yeah, so you know the first one first, one twenty minutes in first work first decent question, alright. I’m learning i’m learning. I’m trained above. Definitely every question i know toe like every good question. There you go. So you just like scripted. I see you like a nice ex scripted. No matter what my question was going to be, you’re going to see a good question. All right? You think this is a live person does? All right. All right. I’ll catch you up. I’ll trip you up. All right, now i’m now i’m on a mission now. I don’t do that to guest. I do it to my wife, but not my guest. Go ahead. Why has a wife facebook messenger and not sms for at message your company. So the way i see it is we are lift no, michael sabat my goal. Sam hello, there we are. Ok, you’re back. We’re ok. Yeah, you cut out so start you start your own channel. So sms had been the on ly messaging channel for the last decade. Yes, but within the last two years, it’s clear that there are going to be a whole bunch of new messaging aps opening up facebook messenger, whatsapp message. All of these are opening up so that organizations can use them, and i think we’ll look back in five years and we’ll say, like, oh, sms was the first messaging channel the same way that hotmail was the first email service, but now it’s become its own category and messaging channels will differ, but they’ll all have their basic best practices the same way that email differs. Whether you’re sending to a well or gmail, maybe, but but they all have their own, like email best practices, and so i wanted to build on and kind of the new stuff coming because it is the most exciting. All right? Um, now what about age? I have not? I’m an outlier, i presume. Based on our conversation, i have not downloaded the facebook messenger app, do we my representative of people fifty five and over? Or am i an outlier even in my age? And you don’t have to worry about age if you want to do ah messaging campaign? Yes, a messaging is actually weird. It what with text messaging? We’re kind of the point where everybody has it, right? If you have a phone? Yes, sure, really, really ubiquitous, both young and old facebook messenger does not do that well with young kids. So you know, up to the age of twenty but what’s surprising is while you’re at work, you’re emailing, right. So while you’re working age, you really are in the email. But as you retire, you stop emailing and you do mohr messaging, whether it’s with the grandkids or whoever, you’re just not going to your desktop computer on your desk every day or your laptop and so messaging it’s pretty ubiquitous, no matter what age group. But we definitely see a bump again. Maur messaging, happy eating with people in their sixties, interesting and my voice is broke like i’m fourteen, but but peter, right, yeah, what did you say? Peter brady, peter brady and i was like, greg, i kind of liked greg, but i guess he was. I was too old for his voice to crack. Well, i am two, fifty. What am i now? Fifty, fifty five, fifty six, fifty six. Okay. That’s. Very interesting about retirement. Yeah, mohr messaging less, uh, less email, right? But you’re spending less time on your desktop, but the phone is always on your belt or in your pocket. All right? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. Michael, maybe should make this a full hour, but i’m certainly not gonna squeeze out amy sample ward. Maybe we have you back and continue this, but men and a half left. What do you what do you want to leave people with? Please? Yes. So i say the last use cases, the big cases acquisition. Right. So collecting data from people over these message and channels direct engagement and then the last one of the activation. So as people are messaging in, they are subscribing similar to when someone gives you their email there subscribing and seeking then follow up on this channel where the person has already engaged and tell them news alerts. Tell them about events. Get them to take action. Stuff like that that’s the big connect sustaining pay off as and in terms of, like, building this list. Okay, um that’s it. I’m super excited to be opening for amy sample ward. I mean, this is going to be a huge episode, she’s, she’s, you know, she’s amazing gas. So congrats on that. I’m excited to be part of it. Oh, she’s, awesome! Yeah, she’s, she’s on every month. Yes. Are you going to the non-profit technology conference? Now i put you on this. Will. You are. I’ll see you there. We’re gonna have a booth. Look for us in booth three. Now, provoc radio’s going to their booth. Number three. Oh five. Great. Okay, michael sabat, orleans, right. Uh, i hope so. I’m going to new orleans. I hope you are too that’s, where the conference is, okay, don’t go to washington. Michael sabat. You’ll find him at s s g, and the company is a tms sg dot com. Michael, thank you so much. Thank you. Needs a break. That is for wagner. Cps. They go beyond the numbers, and i suggest you go beyond the numbers with them by talking to you. Eat each tomb. Who’s. Been on the show twice. Very smart guy. Very nice guy. Low pressure. But check out the website first. You know, check out the bona fide. These make sure that you’re satisfied. You know, you look the clients, etcetera. They do the work you need. I mean there’s. Cps forgot. Take everybody knows what you do. But, you know, you gotta satisfy yourself. Then pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat weinger cpas. Dot com. They go beyond the numbers. Now, time for tony’s. Take two and i need to thank you for pulling us out of sixty nine, sixty nine itunes ratings. Now, i don’t check these things very often. Any sample ward taught me? I really did learns from her that you know, that’s. A vanity metric. How many readings you have fans, etcetera. But i do look from time to time not not gonna lie your butt like every couple months. And for a long time, i may have it was every six months. Or maybe even a year. It was a long time you were at sixty nine readings, and i didn’t say anything about it. I never said please, somebody get us out of sixty nine. I did not plead. I did not make an issue of it. But then i went back a few weeks ago and i see that we got seventy five ratings. So my thanks to the people who pulled us. The six people, six listeners who pulled us out of sixty nine. I guess the one pulled us out of sixty nine, and then the others piled on. But i’m grateful to all six because that’s what i saw, i saw it go from sixty nine, seventy five. So thank you to those listeners who yanked us out of sixty nine. And, of course, there’s a video on this entire subject on you will find that at tony martignetti dot com i shouted from my gym, so i’m i’m pumped up as as a pumped up is that could be it’s, actually, probably more like a a limp linguine. Oh, you know what language? No, his right lung guerrino is a single strand of linguini. So if you’re not too hungry, you know? Just order a linguine o and you’ll get one piece of linguini or a spaghetti o or rigatoni. No, you’ll just get one, you know, little sample sample size. Um, but if you’re hungry, you know, then get the whole plate order linguini or spaghetti, etcetera. So the video was that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two now we got to live. Listen, love and there’s a time we got let’s start abroad. Uh, osaka, japan live listen love to you, connie chua, mexico city, mexico witnessed artois, russia we can’t see the city, but we know that you’re there russia live with their love to you ottawa, canada bolivia abila iraq live listen loved all those foreign listeners on duff there’s more foreign listeners in germany gooden tug, france born i won’t know that’s bonem sabat now that wouldn’t be any good france live listen love to you tokyo is also with us in japan as well as osaka and rio de janeiro, brazil, brazil, one of wonderful that would be oh my god! Oh, opening gadot’s for brazil and bringing it domestic tampa, florida let’s see where else? Portland, oregon about that’s amy simple word, brooklyn, new york welcome, brooklyn multiple new york, new york voice cracked again new bern, north carolina welcome back, haven’t seen you for some time. New bern where’s, new brunswick where’s that was that new brunswick, north, north brunswick, new jersey was annoying me. They would never identify themselves, but they were ubiquitous. New bern, north carolina welcome back live listener love to you kayman sample ward. You know who she is, but i have to give it a proper introduction anyway. She’s, our social media contributor and ceo of intend the non-profit technology network, her most recent court that book, so to change any time everywhere about online multi-channel engagement, you’ll find her at amy, sample, ward, dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward and antennas on ten is and tn dot or ge so many places you could find. Amy simple word welcome back. Thank you. You’re ubiquitous talk about messaging being ubiquitous, you’re ubiquitous. You are ok. Good to talk to you. Good to chat with you. How are you? Yeah, i’m doing pretty good where i think they’re really busy over here, you know, wednesday was the regular registration deadline before prices went up. So for the non-profit technology for the non-profits don’t come, you know so many books hundreds of folks registered just on wednesday, for example, the last man that busy time in the conferences oh, my gosh, it’s going to be here so soon? We’ve got shiping deadlines and print deadlines and everything else over here. I understand now that the hashtag of course is eighteen ntc no, how many people do expect toe? Eighteen, ninety? Si what do you think, it’s? Gonna look so pretty consistent with the last handful of years? Two thousand people all in one big room two thousand awesome. Yeah, i’ve decided non-profit radio was going to be there. We’re going to do right? I’m glad that you have decided that. Yes, usually we keep our business separate, but, you know, i’m melding today because i’m excited that it’s gonna work out. Okay. I am so let andrea and ellie no. Booth three. Oh, five. Um, i wanted i want two, three or five and not your name on it. Thank you. So non-profit metoo is gonna have your name on it when we get there. And the decorators it’s not there now, right? Well, i don’t expect, you know, six weeks in advance. I’m only you know, i can’t afford the furnishings for a couple days, so don’t don’t get you know, the furnishings, irv. Ok, anyway, yes, non-profit there’s going to be there? We’re going to do tons of interviews of of conference speakers and it’s going to be a wonderful day here, and you’re gonna have a hard, ah hard choice because, you know, you may have seen that we have the most breakout sessions this year than than we’ve ever had there’s over one hundred thirty sessions this year. Andi also means we have the most speakers because, as you know, one of our kind of guidelines and values is that people don’t have solo sessions because there’s way too much experience far too many organizations trying to do all of this work that only one person to have an opinion on something isn’t very representative of the community so way. Have over three hundred. Oh, i thought it was too. I thought i saw one hundred thirty sessions in two hundred speakers. No, three hundred, no, three hundred speakers. All right, well, i’ll have. To choose yes, we were selective hearing not provoc radio, but we’ll we’ll choose from one hundred thirty topics and, uh, you know, we’ll bring enough mikes we could share, too. I did one ntcdinosaur with five that we do find no four because i bribed three guest mikes and one person was standing. So two people shared a mike. It works, it works. We could do five or six. Yeah. Yeah, well, you probably don’t. You don’t have six person panels. I don’t thinkyou goes six, but no five. You could do force and five so we could do that. So yes, non-profit latto is going to be at ntc in new orleans. I hope michael sabat shows up in the right city. He wasn’t she didn’t seem too sure about where you’re going to be a friend, an extra postcards kruckel fremery knows where you’re going. Do you know michael before listening to him today? Do you know him well? I was trying to think about if we’ve been in the same place at the same time, because normally i say that i only know someone in five, like met them in person and all of that because otherwise, we know everybody because every, you know, where we’re all online, but i couldn’t remember if we actually have been in the same place at the same time, together or not. Okay, okay, well, you’ll meet with ntcdinosaur he’ll be there exactly let’s carry on to our topic cheating, cheating are cheating. So phrase gaming, i’m still against it and we can talk about that. But i’m cheating. It just sounds so bad. Well, i don’t know. We’re keeping in the social media context. I didn’t think i didn’t think gaming. I know you suggested gaming. Yeah, i went with cheating. Um in-kind left on it. Let’s admit to cheating. Alright, thank you very much. Oh, down that path. All right. So, um, let’s share your experience, your your wisdom and your opinion. Really on on buying stuff, buying everything from blogged content of youtube views. What does anymore think, amy simple would think about that? I’ve lost a toss about it on dh there. Probably not too sure you have ever mean you as you, tony, but you as everyone else is listening, ever listened into a conversation tony and i had. They’re probably not going to surprise. You what my feelings are, you know, i think we have to go back and i can already see the face that you’re making tony when i say this thing, that i probably say every single conversation that we have, which is we have to go back to our goals if your goal is to get people to go back to, you know what you were talking about the first half hour, if your goal is to get people teo, opt in, jump into a conversation and actually sign up for something or donate or add their names to your advocacy call, you know, whatever that is, buying random people probably bought is not going to get you closer, right? So if you’re just buying it for the number, hey, i would argue you have a really horrible goal weight. You should not be that list of life, their followers or whatever shouldn’t be your goal anyway on if you are just trying to fill, let me think about i often do this as a way of really kind of checking myself if i’m if i’m okay on the right things or i’m not focused on the right things and that is to turn your situation that you’re thinking about strategizing, whether this is buying facebook fans or twitter followers or instagram, polish, whatever, turn that into a in person scenario and check your same logic. So if we were in a room together, we were at the ntc right on, and our goal is to put on this awesome conference and have lots of content and have people engaging in making connections. But instead of focusing on that, we said, we want tohave three thousand people at the conference this year, right instead of always two thousand. So where does goingto go to the city of new orleans and say, we’re going to pay, you know, fifteen dollars an hour? Wait because this is our going. We’re gonna fill this commission’s, right? Because that’s our goal right way, a thousand people that are really there that are part of our community would say, who are all these people that i keep talking to you in the hallway that have no interest in what i’m doing that have nothing to do with non-profit work-life we then also create i’m going to save damage because well defined that and whatever different. Context is for the people who earnestly wanted to be part of our work, right? So focusing on that on that filling the filling, that big convention center focusing on that actually has maybe created more damage than had. We just had a smaller event on dso when i put it into a real world scenario, i think it’s so helpful because when we think about riel, world scenarios were much more likely to think about those people is people versus those people as followers or profile pictures or phone numbers, right when we’re when we’re focused on lee on the technology as this interchange in this transaction place, if we let ourselves kind of let go of the fact that these are committee members and they’re our friends and there are supporters, and i think using that real world scenario helps you remember, okay, if this is a room full of our people at our annual event, we would never do this. So why would we do it online now? The facebook the facebook facebook has changed. Facebook has changed its algorithm for for because it’s a new day yeah, right. Yes, bond, i’m hearing it. All right, companies. And non-profits or having trouble getting their content before there constituents there, their fans, the people was like their page in favor of in favor of family, family and friends stuff. Um, now i think it is i don’t think i’m being cynical saying that so that now companies and non-profits and organizations generally have toe pay for right for more outreach, brother reach no, you’re not being okay that’s that tried and true practice, right? Give people things for free so that they come to rely on them and feel they need them and then say, actually, you can’t have it for free anymore, but will you pay this amount? And people feel like they don’t have a choice, they have to pay it way don’t non-profits largely, any organization business on facebook has had lots of thing for free, you know? They got to have content that people could see in their new speed, and they could connect with folks and send messages and, you know, previously have much more, um, kind of dynamic options around events and messages and groups and all the rest and slowly all of that has been taken away, and i think at this point organisations really feel like, well, we have been used to getting to message. You’re having are. Our message is rather show up in the news feet of of our fans. So i guess now we do have to promote our posts, or even further than that, have facebook ads. And i think less about using facebook, then as a place where you are like you would with a promoted post, just trying to get your content scene and engaged with. And now that you’re using it, like big companies, to drive traffic to your website or into a facebook messenger, you know, a conversation or whatever it might be. Big, heavy sigh uh, listen, i mean, it’s kind of sad and frustrating his leg’s definitely, i think it’s a real challenge for organizations, teo feel like they are confident enough with there could management of the tool before you even think about how much time it takes. I mean, if you were to go to affirm that all that they do as they’re agency is, like a manage facebook ads and social media management for for clients, a you pay them a ton of money and they have a lot of expertise they’ve been doing this is all that they live and breathe, and it still takes them hours and hours, right? Like the idea that a small non-profit who already struggled to have the time to even log in to facebook one today, you know, and like, engage or like or reply to comments that now they’re they’re having to log in and then say, okay, well, hattaway, create an ad. How is that different than promoting this post? Because both of them are taking my credit card number? Like i said it’s, just so so disappointing that feels like it, it has established itself as this keep mathos massively, a hugely popular platform for people as individuals communicating with each other, and that should be a place where non-profits go to talk to people, right? I’m yet there are just so many, so many burdens or barriers to doing that. I know we got to take a break, stay with us, tell us credit card and payment processing. You know them. This is where you get the long tail of passive revenue because they are credit card processors. So you go to tony dot mm slash tony. Tell us you watch the video. It will explain the process of business is moving their credit card processing to tell us, and you will get fifty percent of everything tell us earns on all those transactions long revenue stream. Tony dahna i’m a slash tony. Tell us. Okay, any sample word, let’s? Keep talking about. Well, we brought in a little beyond cheating, but i, uh okay. So yes, facebook drew us in and drew non-profits in wave with e-giving they had e-giving for god’s sake on now, there. Now, now you gotta pay to get all this. All right, but but buying facebook likes is not the answer. No, it’s not going to be the answer, because buying the likes whether you’re buying likes on your content or buy-in likes just unto your page, write a cz followers it’s still going to set you up for a really bad roo i calculation from then on, right? Like if you’re now carrying one hundred extra fans that have no real intention in engaging with you are becoming part of your mission or donating to you every time you put a post out there, you’re getting even a smaller percentage, right? Because now you just artificially inflated all those numbers. Yeah, yeah, okay, good, but we’ve taken that off the table that that is not the way you go that way. Um, we’ll spend your few dollars on buy-in followers and fans used that money, even though, and this is what this i’ll i’ll make my case for it now, tony, the reason that i had said this was a conversation about gaming, social media, not cheating, is that just what we’re saying about facebook that you do have to play that game a bit on dh like i’m saying, don’t use your money on buying more, more followers instead. Used that money to say, you know, once a week we’re going to spend two dollars or five dollars, and we’re goingto busta post and get it more visibility, and that way it is content that you already have it’s maybe a post you already put up like if it was intend this week, maybe it’s a post specific toe reminder wednesday’s the registration deadline before the rate increases so it’s something that’s important is already something that you’re going to post on the page and then just put a couple of those dollars behind, boosting that more instead of putting your money somewhere else. What about the thinking that if we have a lot of let’s, shift over to twitter? If we have a lot of twitter followers, then people will think we’re popular and more people will join us organically. So if we buy ten thousand or twenty thousand twitter followers, which you’re right from a little i know about this, they’re probably fake. They’re either stolen and fake identity accounts or their bots, but if we have a big number than people will say, whoa, they have a big number about and then organically it’ll it’ll grow. Is that that flawed logic? And if so, why? I really think that it is flawed logic. So two, two versions, one in person, you know, if it was me and i had a million followers on twitter, for example, you’re going toe, you’re going to question that number, and if you first you’re going to say, okay, is that? Do i follow five people? You know, like it’s? Because it is obvious that this person is just, you know, buying all these followers because they don’t follow anyone? They’re not actually engaging with people. You’d also investigated by looking at the content just because i have a lot of followers, if i post, you know, once a month with, like a retweet of something what’s the point of following me anyway, right? There is no there’s, no content there there’s no value there. So even if i didn’t have a million followers and i was regularly engaging with people and i followed a ton of people and, you know, very similar number followed back that’s showing actually ah lot stronger truck between whoever that individual is and the people that they engage with them just see a billboard type. Profile right? Like you’re just an ad, right? Like lots of people are just there, but if it’s an organization similar, if you if you are truly an organization that should have a million followers, then you are an organization who should be putting out great content every day that you have profile that has, you know, your logo and information about whatever campaign you’re running or what your mission is has clear links over to your website that has similar branding and and tone and feel, you know, that there’s clearly a strong presence there if instead you’re an organization that shows that you have a million followers you again, you yourself follow five and your profile is very basic. You do not have strong called action and your messages you’re not regularly, you know, posting there, it doesn’t matter how many followers you have no one’s going to, really you don’t want to buy into that. That organization. In my intro, i linked, i grouped together buying views fans likes and also buying content. What about? You know, if we’re if we’re a small organization, we don’t have the wherewithal toe keep our keep facebook fresh or ur own even our own sight. Our own blogged fresh. What do you think about buying content? I guess occasionally. Or no, if you don’t like it, so i know i don’t like it, okay, but i want it cut the mic, right cover my kapin mike doesn’t like it, you know, if i can. Okay, so i think that there is, uh, certainly ah, path a reality in which money is exchanged for content on your website or your probably more. So, you know, on your block, like you’re saying versus on social, but in that situation is not that you are just buying content, but that instead you have say, uh, your education organization you focused on, kate told education, and you recruit twelve or twenty four say teachers in your service area to write something for you and that way you have to post a month. I’m just making this up, obviously, and you want to give them, you know, one hundred fifty dollars, check as a thank you for all of the time and sharing their expertise, and now they have one hundred fifty dollars to use in their classroom or whatever they want to do. So i think that kind of scenario where you are essentially providing honorariums for your community members, contributing to your content definitely makes them, but i wouldn’t ever consider that buying condoms. Mom, is that clear? What i’m saying there? Yeah, yeah, you’re you’re not you’re not out first of all, it’s it’s relevant because it’s coming from a community member and yeah, zim one you know, and they’re contributing content. So, you know, it’s it’s an honorarium? Yeah, exactly, and i think the other opportunity and again, i don’t think that money would necessarily be exchanged in this scenario, but four organizations, i don’t think that you should feel bad if you feel like, oh my gosh, we we don’t have time or we don’t we don’t feel like we have a lot to say to create all that content that is a huge place where i think partnerships are really important. I don’t know how much i’ve talked about it on the show over the years, but if anyone listening has been in any of my workshops around content planning, i always advocate that in your content plan, you include notes about if any of your funders have ah, blawg or social media profiles, if any of your coalition partners or project partners, if any of those people have outlets, and if they do, you should follow those because oftentimes they mean, you only had five minutes today while you were eating lunch while you were also, you know, listening to this radio show toe log in tow twitter and so long as you had all those folks there, maybe what you do today is just read retweet, you know, amplifies some of that content you don’t need to come up with it on your own, but, you know, it’s mission aligned, you know, that it’s relevant because they’re part of your kind of network of work. Andi, i think that’s a really important thing to keep in mind so that you don’t feel the pressure that you always have to write new articles every day. It may mean, hey, the five other organizations we work with are posting this. We’re going to repost it just like two other organizations are right in leverage, kind of how best would think about it. Is that network effect right? You have? Yes, you that’s beth cancer she’s dropping names. That’s, she’s referring to beth cantor? Yes, you have said that on the show and yeah, you’re you’re curating, you’re curating. Others content and and then? And then i probably learned this from you. Do you know they appreciate that, and they’re likely to share your content makes it more likely that their shells there show they’ll share your content and, you know, it’s a which also metoo we just have a minute left really manically last words or fans or whoever will come to you because maybe they already follow that partner or that thunder, and because you created a good relationship and sharing content between the two of you, you’re helping expose your content to all of their fans. Indeed, indeed. I know that from the non-profit media experience followers come when we share. We share good content from other people. Um, we gotta leave it there. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. In anywhere, stu. In april, we’re gonna get you for an interview. She’s amos sample ward and you’ll find her at amy rs ward and amy sample ward dot or ge next week risk-alternatives and your disaster recovery plan. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps, dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Family voices the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez on this music is by scots dahna with me next week for non-profit radio, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and green. Yeah. Snusz you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving e-giving cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentially ater tune in every tuesday nine to ten eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. 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Nonprofit Radio for January 26, 2018: Start Your Planned Giving In 2018 & Amy’s 2018 Plan

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Tony Martignetti: Start Your Planned Giving In 2018

It’s me. I know a little about Planned Giving fundraising. I’ll give you tips, tricks and strategies to kickoff your wills campaign this year.

 

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Amy’s 2018 Plan

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward is our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network, NTEN. She’s got insightful ideas to make your online life more balanced.

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with lishman iesus, if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show, start your plans e-giving in twenty eighteen it’s me, i know a little about planned e-giving fund-raising i’ll give you tips, tricks and strategies to kick off your will’s campaign this year and amy’s twenty eighteen plan and you stamp award is our social media contributor and ceo of antenna non-profit technology network. She’s got insightful ideas to make your online life more balanced. I’m tony steak too. You’re twenty eighteen plans all this month, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us here i am with start your planned e-giving in twenty eighteen it’s my pleasure to welcome twenty martignetti ah, not a great pleasure. Sometimes i say great player. Just a pleasure. I’ve been doing planned e-giving since nineteen, ninety seven. So that’s. Twenty years. I was twenty one years. Yes, twenty one years. Now. I mean, my twenty first year, um, and i’ve been consulting in it for fifteen years. Yes, yeah, it’s, starting, well, whatever fifteen years is, yes. Start in two thousand three exactly as a consultant. Two thousand three nineteen ninety seven got started so i know a thing or two about planned e-giving and an opportunity arose because guest this month at a family emergency and couldn’t pre record for me. So i’m pretty recording from myself, and we’re doing start your plan giving in twenty eighteen let’s begin with what is planned giving i have a really simple definition, and it is a method of fund-raising that is long term and typically means cash to your non-profit at the death of the donor so long term you need thio recognize that this is not going to pay next years ah, salary budget or for your five or even ten year capital plan. We’re going to start promoting plan giving roughly with people who are about fifty five or, say, sixty and over fifty five to sixty and if someone that age puts you in there will, which is what we’re gonna talk about the example that’s, the marketing we’re going to talking about wills um, you know, they could be living another twenty five or thirty years, so you have to have that long term. View of fund-raising and if you’re going to embark on this, your board needs to have that long term view of fund-raising you don’t want your board in six months asking when we kicked off this plan giving program, encouraging bequests, where’s the revenue that that would be that would be a big, big problem. You haven’t kicked it off, right? Your board needs to know that these air gifts that are coming twenty, twenty five, thirty years in the future, right? Of course, depending on the ages of the people that actually make the gif ts but again, we’re going to start our marketing around fifty five or sixty so long term view, who are the best prospects for planned gif ts as i said by age, there are about fifty five to sixty and over now, of course, if a seventy five or eighty year old includes you in there, will, then you know, they may only be living for five or ten or fifteen years. So again, it depends what the ages of the people are, who actually make the gift best prospects. They love your work, they are already committed donors to your organization and by committed were judging that we’re judging their commitment. I need to take a drink. By their giving history, their history of consistency if they’ve been giving to you, you know, twelve of the past fifteen years or eighteen of the past twenty years, or maybe even more than more, you know, twenty five times in twenty years, you’re looking for that long term consistency in giving. And when you’re looking at that, you want to ignore the gift size i literally mean, if all those gifts those eighteen gifts in twenty years were ten dollars a month, that person is a very good plan e-giving prospect they’re probably of the right age because they’ve been giving to you for so many years, and they always plan for you. They always think about your organization, and i would bet you that if they’re giving it that ten dollar level, they wish they could give more, but they can’t during their lifetime, their ultimate gift to you. We’ll be in there a state plan, and again, we’re talking about the quests, those those gif ts in someone’s will a charitable bequest in the will that is going to be the ultimate gift for someone who was a low level donor is ignore the gift size when you’re looking at the consistency through the years through the decades, small gif ts very consistent donor-centric planned gift prospect this is not only for your major donors by any stretch, not at all. All right, so, you know, people have asked me when i’m speaking, you know, do you focus on women because women outlive men? No, i don’t focus on women it’s true that women on average do outlive men, and if they’re married than odds are that thie their husband’s estate or book of it has been left to them. So you could say that they may be have, um, on outsized role in planned giving because they’ve been left assets from there husbands. But, you know, i don’t focus marketing on females in their seventies, eighties or even fifty five or sixty um, you just you do, however, want to be sensitive to the role of women, you know what i have seen? And this is not just from questions, but i’ve seen it myself buy-in an events, clients or non clients, even when a couple is together and the husband is the one who’s being talked to, and the wife is largely being ignored, that’s that’s a that’s a big mistake. You want couples involved you want? You want me? Even if it might even be the whole family in some cases, but certainly you want couples involved. So as you’re thinking about who the best potential donors are in the long term on dh for your for your plans, giving program you want to be respecting women while their husbands are still alive. You know kids, you can’t marginalize the woman. And then when she becomes a widow all of a sudden year, you’re embracing her and you want her toe. You want her to be as enthusiastic about your your mission that as as her husband was that’s that’s probably not going to succeed. So just i mean, what am i saying? Just respect women the way you do men, you know, treat the couple as joint donors doesn’t matter what who’s who has the greater interest treat them both because you never know what’s gonna happen longer term. All right, so that’s that’s what? Who the best prospects are on now we’re going to pick it up with got a bunch of marketing tips and, ah, little a little bit about your recognition society stay with me, it’s. Time for a break pursuant, data driven fund-raising field guide it’s their newest resource on the listener landing page at tony daddy may slash pursuant capital p there’s no! Ah, yeah there’s so much data around us. It’s, easy to feel data overload. Just the data that you already have can be overwhelming so and then trying to figure out what to do with it and how to make it actionable. The field guide purpose is to make data less daunting for you. They’re less daunting s so what’s in it for five high level steps you can take to translate your business objectives, real world case studies and a worksheet with thought starters it’s at tony dahna slash pursuing capital p now back to me and start your plan giving in twenty eighteen um, so just teo want duyvil deeper just into a charitable bequests just so we’re clear that that is not all there is around playing e-giving that’s just where we’re started. There’s lots of different types of plant gif ts this could be about the gift of life insurance gif ts from ira’s from charitable trusts and there’s lots of varieties of charitable trust, charitable gift annuities. Those are those are the most popular, all kinds of beneficiary designations in financial assets, but the one planned gift that we’re going to be focusing on is that charitable bequest encouraging gift to your organisation in people’s wills so that alongside their husband, wife, children and grandchildren, there is a bequest paragraph, a gift to your non-profit and think about what we’re asking someone to do. I mean, think about how much they love your work to put you alongside husband, wife, children, grandchildren, i mean, they really love your work that is quite a respected place to be, and that has implications for you’re treatment of them after they’ve told you that you’re in there. Will, you know, in other words, your stewardship of them, and i’m going to talk a little later about your recognition society. So think about what you’re asking people to do put you in that very special place. Why am i focusing on charitable bequests? A bunch of reasons? Everybody knows what a will is, everybody should have one it’s very easy to do. People don’t have to tell you that they’ve included you. There are a lot of plant gifts where they would have to tell you, because you need to be involved in the documentation of it. This is an example where they don’t have to tell you they could include you in their will and not inform you. And there are lots of people who will not tell you that they’ve included you, even though you’ll be asking you constantly want to be asking in in your marketing, please tell us if you’ve included us in your will, but ah lot of people won’t. The national statistic is that there’s between seven and eight states that you’re in for every one that you know about on why don’t people reveal why? Why, when people share that information, especially when you’re mean, when you’re a part of it, i want they tell you there’s a lot of reasons for that they don’t want to be asked to do more. They’re, um they don’t want to be treated any special, especially any differently. They want to know that they can change their mind. And even though legally we can change our minds about our wills any time we want to there’s an old woody allen clip our line, i think it’s, i’m not sure it’s in zelig, i’m not sure where it is, but he’s upset at some family member and he yells up to his wife, bring me my will and an eraser. You can change your will anytime it doesn’t matter whether you told the organizations or the people who are in it that that they’re in it, but people feel an obligation not to change their mind once they’ve told you that they that they have included you in their will, they just they feel that moral obligation and the reason they won’t inform you that they’ve done this is because they don’t want to be bound morally. They want tohave that flexibility again, even though legally we always we always have it. We’re talking about their their moral obligation, so lots of reasons why people won’t tell you, um and that was part of i was listing off. You know why we’re dealing with charitable bequests? Because people don’t have to tell you another reason we’re focusing on wills and bequests. There’s no lifetime cost noah’s the hypothetical i gave you before the a person who’s been giving ten dollars, a year for many, many years. This is their ultimate gift. They. They wish they could have done more for you during their lifetime. But they need a gift that doesn’t have a lifetime cost. And so the charitable request is one of those examples. So that’s a bunch of reasons why we’re focusing on wills and bequests. I guess the biggest reason is that it is so easy for people to understand, everybody knows what a will is, and they can include you in theirs. All right. So moving to some marketing tips, how to encourage people to include you in their will and remember, we talked about best prospects. We need to go back and listen, those of the people you’re targeting again, you know, fifty five or sixty and over, um, well, you don’t need to go back because i’m reiterating it and very consistent donors. You’re not gonna be acquiring new donors through your plan giving marketing. This is not an acquisition strategy. All right, this is your charitable bequest strategy will’s campaign. If you want to think of it as a campaign, that could be a very good idea. Think of this as a will’s campaign, some ways of marketing. Starting with events, you’re producing a program, you could put a couple of sentences in that programme along the lines of we’ve kicked off a campaign to encourage you to remember our organization in your will, it’s very simple to do and secures our work long into the future. Ah, your attorney needs our legal name, address and tax i d number. Drop those in and that’s it and then maybe mom’s, right? Maybe say, you know, for more information, contact whoever that wherever that contact person is director, development, et cetera. Um, a few words about legal name, address and tax id these air fundamental to lots of planned gif ts certainly that applies in the case of charitable bequests. You want to make your legal name, that the name under which you’re incorporated, you’re you’re incorporated a nonprofit corporation. What that formal legal name is? I want to make that public also your address and your federal tax i d number. I hope you recognize that tax i d number that e r e i n employer identification number the irs has given you. I hope you realize that that is not to be kept private. Like your social security number. It’s already public it’s on all your form nine nineties. Excuse me, and those are gosh, excuse me. And those are very public. You may have them on your own website. Lots of attorney general’s attorneys general offices is have them attorney general’s office is attorneys general attorneys general, lots of attorneys, general offices have them guide star has them so you know that that buy-in which is important to teo, including request gif ts should be should be public, you know, make that part of your part of your marketing along with your legal name and your address. So sticking with events, maybe you could even drop a couple of words into the the written remarks, the remarks that are going to be made for that event. Now, i understand some events. It may not be appropriate, but some it can be appropriate. So if it is, you know, besides doing what you’ve done in the written program have someone have the speaker announced that you know, we’ve we’ve kicked off this will’s campaign. We’re encouraging gifts by will it’s. Really simple to do for more information, please see no, whoever standing in the corner, it doesn’t require more than just like three or four sentences in in a speaker’s remarks. Get out there. I mean you want to have you you know you’re gonna think about this is a campaign, you’ve got to be promoting your campaign? Ah, your annual report another place that you can encourage donors and also recognize those who have already made planned gift that i’ve already put you in there will that’s a perfect place for recognition. Now i know a lot of organizations i’ve heard you are getting away from printed annual reports. So you know this other marketing ideas i’ve got if if you’re not producing a written annual report, but if you’re doing it on, i mean doesn’t matter. You’re doing an online version of your annual report include the names there say what it is. You know, these people have included us in their long term plans by by naming us in there will, if you’d like to. If you’d like to join them, please contact whoever your attorney will need our again legal name, address and tax id, and here they are and then list those names as a zoo form of recognition people who have already i already made that made the plunge and and put you in their will, i would say when you’re gonna be listing names, make sure that you have their permission to use their names. That’s something you want to ask after someone has informed you that they’ve included you in their will ask permission to use their name on, and if they say no, then list them as anonymous. All right? You mean you want to show that there are as many gifts as there are in your will’s campaign in your new plant giving program? So list the people as anonymous if they prefer not to be named my experience. Very few people don’t want their names listed, but you certainly should be asking another marketing tip direct mail. You’re already producing your mail piece. You can put a buckslip in that’s ah, it’s a something that i mean, the way i do them for clients is they’re printed three on a sheet because she gets cut in thirds and then there’s little buckslip third of us slipped gets gets dropped in. It doesn’t change the weight of your piece, so you’re not spending any more on postage, something along the lines of did you know you can include, you know, our organization, your name in your will. It’s so easy to do lots of people have all you need is our legal name, address and tax id. Here they are. Please share this information with your attorney and for more information, contact whoever it is that it’s that easy. All right, you already producing the mail, drop a drop of slip in and encourage, encourage gives by will along lines of direct mail when you print your next batch of of envelopes were talking about the the not reply envelopes, but the although we could do it there, too. But i’m thinking of the number ten the carrier enveloped the outer envelope that as your your name and logo on the on the outside on the flap, put a little check box for i’d like information on including and then your organization name in my will. We’ll check off for people everybody’s going to see it, they got they got to seal the envelope, they’re going to see that you’re already printing the envelopes include this on the on the flap. All right, easy, easy. I’d like more information on including the organization in in my will. No, they want you to think about email signatures, email. Signatures and business cards. Can everybody in the organization had this to there to their email signature? You could include us in your will ask me how and then you may get some enquiries. Same thing on business cards next time you’re printing business cards or as as new employees come or a sze yu have to reprint for your current employees. Ah, statement about including the organization in your will you don’t ask me out, you know, a ll these simple tips that’s because i’m the evangelist for planned giving him and i’m trying to get the word out as much as possible trying to promote your will’s campaign, your your plan giving program as much as possible. So, you know, you take or leave these ideas i’ve had people come up to me after i’ve spoken, and i’ve suggested the business card and they’ll show me their car. It’s got it, he’s got it on there. Um, they ran out. I mean, they left the seminar. They ran teo insta print or staples. They got the rapid. They obviously paid the cost for the for the urgent a rush job. And then he came back and there it was so very gratifying. Let me. Okay, well, let’s, keep going with the marketing. And then i want to assure you about about thes bequests and how you can have a very fulfilling plan giving program just on the quest. Um, promotion, when you are in meetings, okay, you in one on one meetings, you’ve done your research. You know that the person who’s a very consistent, loyal donor and you either know or you’re judging that they’re roughly fifty five sixty and you want to open the subject. Ah, good. Oh, now this is not the walk in the door line, of course, but as the conversation is continuing no. Ah, we’ve kicked off a campaign to encourage gifts by will. We’re starting to get some interest. If this is true, you can even say, you know, people of we’ve got people, including us in their will, and you have been such a consistent and loyal donors for so many years. Is that something that you would consider and no answers? We’ll run the gamut from i’ve thought about it already. Oh, i’ve already done it, tio no, you know, i don’t i don’t really think of you in that long term way and ah, i was done ask, well, why is that you’ve been a long term donor? How come you don’t? You don’t see something longer term with us? Okay, assuming that the conversation is going to continue, all right, and there is some interest, then you want to be very sensitive about about this topic, because it is so personal. Again, you know, they’re putting you next to their loved one ones, so in their will. So you do want to be very thoughtful and sensitive and listening. And they may even reveal some things that are personal, because this is involving, you know, their their long term plan. Their this is their will. And that involves family members, loved ones, maybe even dear friends. So you might hear some things that are more personal than you’re accustomed to. You know, just take that in. And, ah, keep the conversation guided toward how a gift in someone’s will. This long term gift is goingto further your work. What’s it going to mean for your work to continue, you know, decades from now. And i would also tell you that people who are of this age, and they are long term, consistent donors to you, they’re ready to have a conversation like this, even if, even if they’re answer is negative, they’re not going to be put off by the by the suggestion. Okay, it’s, just as i’ve been doing this twenty one years and it’s never happened where someone was offended by the conversation, because you’re asking the right people, you bring it up with the right, great potential donors. Um all right, that’s the same marketing tips i have, i want to assure you that even though there are so many different types of plant gifts that i was listening earlier, you could have a very, very respectable planned gift program just with wills, you can start and stop there. You you certainly could go further, but you don’t need to. I’ve worked with small organizations where all they did was encourage gif ts by will that was the sum and substance of there planned gift program um, and small organizations, you know, when there’s a dozen, fifteen, twenty people in the er in the recognition society which is going to get through very shortly. Um that’s very gratifying, you know? And then you just keep up the you keep up the marketing, so do not feel that just because there’s such a broad array of planned gift that you need to be in every one of them you don’t, you could have a very respectable program that is on ly around wills your recognition society goingto wrap up with this i said earlier how important stewardship is so you certainly do want to have a recognition society i would encourage you to call it something other than the heritage circle. The legacy fund, the legacy circle, um, those air ubiquitous, name it something that his iconic to your organization, it might be the year of your founding. It might be the name of your founder. Ah, the maybe the hong zhang society, um, the you know, wherever, in-kind if there was not a founder, someone whose iconic to your organization, i have a school where it’s the it’s, the bell tower society, because that’s, an iconic fixture on their on their on their campus so name it something that’s iconic to your organization. Please stay away from the legacy circle. Also, you do not need to spend a lot of money on thanking your donors. You’re who have included you in their wills you just need to be thoughtful, genuine. So what are some things you can do if you’re hosting an event? Set aside, tomorrow’s vp some sorry, some v i p seating for them it’s like the cost of masking tape or or string tio label a section of seats you’ve already bought and paid for vips and then invite your plan. Give donors to sit there, include them in your insider publications, whatever those might be newsletters, whatever emails, insider blast um, these are people who have made a gift and they and even though you haven’t recognised in his cash yet, it is a long term commitment to your organization, and they’ve put you alongside their loved ones. So in your recognition society, do what you can to make them feel special, right? And that is start your plan giving in twenty eighteen i’m always open to questions, of course. Good luck. Getting playing, giving off the ground this year when you just take a break, wittner sepa is another testimonial quote, this is my first year and we are a growing non-profit argast gps was completely attentive and gave the impression as if they were right next door when handling our review engagement. Even though we’re in a different state, they made me feel like we’re the only client they had, and they were able to walk me through starting up our accounts to finishing our yearly statements. Nothing was too small a task for them to handle, and they were always available for questions and concerns. The customer service was exceptional, which is a rarity these days and greatly appreciated. I received great advice and guidance for better business practices from a professional, all while feeling supported and generally cared for in the process. Magnus deepa is really stood out as a partner, and i could not be happier with the results end quote, supported and generally cared for. Okay, that’s outstanding. Um, it sounds like they’re like wellness coaches or holistic practitioners or emergency room nurses or first responders. Bridal registry liaisons card detailers, veterinarians, their sherpas on mount interest mount interest, mount everest. There, lifeguards there park rangers, their servers at a five star restaurant. No, it’s just weinger cps genuinely cared for and supported. Where you going to find that they’re more than sepa is. They go beyond the numbers. They’re people for god’s sake, their trusted advisers to their clients. Oh, and this this testimony was from a small cancer research non-profit on the east coast. You’re supposed to change arctic firms every three years. I hope you’ve heard that. So you get the first perspective on your management, your financials? Ah, etcetera. Um, you want the advice of a firm? I think that goes broad and is gonna help you. You know, beyond the numbers beyond the balance sheet. Like huge tomb he’s. Been on the show twice. February tenth twenty seventeen, august seventh twenty fifteen. You can work with him. Argast appears dot com go there now, time for tony. Take two. We covered your twenty eighteen all this month. I hope it was great value for you. Despite the lousy sound quality and a bunch of the segments again, i’m sorry about that. Today is the last of this. This run for the month of january to believe anything out. Is there something that you would like us to cover for you? Let me know at twenty martignetti or you can use tony at twenty martignetti dotcom. Get me there. Here’s amy sample ward with her twenty eighteen plan it’s. My pleasure to welcome back. Amy sample ward, you know, social media contributor and ceo of ends and the non-profit technology network. The most recent co author. A book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement that amy sample wards dot or ge and at amy are lorts welcome back-up awards staying for having me back. Happy twenty eight teams. Absolutely. Thank you. Yes. I’m glad to have you back if you want. Good to have you on this one. Yeah, well, it’s a good a good open for our year together. Yeah, wonderful. And that’s what we’re talking about years together on twenty eighteen. Um, your plans. Your plans for twenty eighteen. Yeah. So let’s. See what you got? What you got for, uh, listeners for the year? Well, just hearing the way that you were introducing me. Maybe he’ll like the first thing that i have put on my list to know my life let me divulge my deepest regulations for the year. Tony martignetti on the radio lift the field very aligned with ten of my role on on on top of radio and then it’s about social media and my first kind of my first, you know, i’m not really revolution person, i don’t know if we need to unpack that here, but i’m not really a resolution person way don’t do that. I’m more of like a like i’m more of a, uh, reminders and commitment you almost every day myself, something happened, and i think, okay, i’m gonna make a note that, like, i want to be committed to a path where that doesn’t happen, or i don’t want to do that thing again or, you know, whatever those little reminders are, they come up, uh, you know, all the time that that’s more how my personality but one thing that has been on the top of my personal reminder list the last a few weeks and that felt very strong when you asked for me to think about these things is this idea of justice feeling come serve all staying connected where i want to and making that decision they know how i feel in that in those connections and in that channel vs, you know, being the ceo event, and i’m feeling like i need to be on every single channel and talking to people in our community every where they are and letting go of that and just saying, you know what? I really like to use channel for this reason and connect with only these people there. I’m nothing to feel bad about that i’m going connect with those people in that face and feel good. So you think it’s more where you feel comfortable? Yeah, okay, because we’ve talked about the past meeting people where they are here well and that horizon organizations and i’m chained for me as a person, you know, like my my personal accounts online, you know versus and pen of an organization are professional sort of channel. I give you an example like, i, you know, there’s all there’s, always drama or opinions or fear about what facebook is doing to this state of the internet, and sometimes i care about those things sometimes i think they’re all hyperbole, but what i have found is that over the last year or so, i really don’t even look at anything in it. This small moms group that i’m a part of with other women from my wellness center and weigh all log in who are private group and we talk, you know, every day while we’re pumping, people were commenting and talking teo other every night after, you know, babies sort of bad everybody kind of checks when we’re together and it’s it feels like a really close community, and everybody uses that space that kind of have an outlet, people bet you understand what you’re going through. I could really honestly care less about the rest of baseball because all it is people sharing new links that make you any tests and stress. And, you know, all of this back and forth, like i want to go to my mama’s group and talk to my friends, and i don’t want to feel bad that i’m not, you know, personally engaging with the rest of the world of books, any temple word, that’s, a big deal because you are you are a co author of books about being multi-channel and engaged everywhere napor so that’s you know, first of all i have i want everyone to know that non-profit radio is not only family friendly, it is family embracing, you know, the the the subject of lactation, and something is very welcome on this shelf. Yes, just in case yours in question. But now that’s uh that’s quite a revelation. Thank you. Thank you for sharing really well, i feel like he’s been in a professional way. The places where i’ve been using twitter, facebook, you’re somebody’s much more longer standing platform has really migrated into groups, whether that’s groups in the way that it has no actual group where you’re just these people have joined this group, whether it’s private or public group or place metoo tools like twitter, where public but a new kind of created roots in your own feet are really relied on hash tag on ly follow the ship out about a certain topics and i mean you you will not be surprised that my reflection and kind of understanding about this it is what it is, but i think it’s all because we use it to your community as ad has gotten to be, you know, ten, fifteen years old and every single person is on them, so you can’t just listen to every single right now you have to go back to creating some smaller communities within that channel weather that wrote groups or hashtags or whatever. And i think it’s important for people to recognize that you don’t need to read every single twist it goes, you know, through your street because that’s not necessarily why you are even using twitter right to read every thought of every person in dinner, mess with people and create some communities. All right, so your youth has evolved teoh right into these communities within the over the larger community have all your followers are all your friends? Exactly? And i mean, it sounds like a more sophisticated and more personal use of the platform. Well, i think you know what you think about it is like it’s krueger and group. And so naturally now it’s gonna split apart so that all of those pieces in grover and grow and then they split apart, right, like that’s natural growth cycles for many different applications. So i think for me at least it’s at that place. Now where it’s grown too big for it to be meaningful. So now i have to break it into parts where they’re meeting again in breaks. Evolution? Exactly. All right, i should have said earlier there’s there’s a bit of a delay between amy talking that’s because we’re working on a sort of strangely relieved system would buy phones. And sam is according to having trouble with the regular phone line calling the studio that’s actually kind of interesting. I mean, it i’m forgetting because there’s no mike in front of me now i’m just talking to you on my phone. Come on, yeah, it’s like a more personal conversation, even though i know i know intellectually it’s going to be recorded and they’re in the over twelve thousand people listening, but it doesn’t feel like it right now. You know what you’re like? What is the scene? Because in my mind, i’m picturing you on the phone and not picturing you, you know, i’ve seen i’ve seen the studio and been able to record in the city, so i know the setup and i normally khun pictured you sitting in the microphone looking at sam’s at, you know, african, hold on dh it always feels like oh, i’m calling in and i’m being, you know, put into the system, and today it feels like you and i are just having a conversation. It’s very interesting how much of an impact that makes exactly i know, even though we know for sure, yeah, even though i know sam is still sitting next to you. Yeah, i mean, i’m in a different chair on this side. I know it is interesting that really it’s what i think about it, it feels more personal, and i’m very comfortable with mike in front of me, but this feels a lot more personal, even though intellectually i know it’s, not just a phone call between two of us. Uh, all right, well, thank you again for for sharing world was opening up that way that the evolution you also want to encourage us to connect people. Yes, well, i mean, i barely everyone needs to be doing that. But i know that from me. I take a lot of of happiness from and really enjoy making connections for people. Because in my job i have super privileged to meet just a ton of people every year, you know, i travel a lot i presenta latto and part of an organization that connects thousands of people, you know? So i just i make so many connections myself, i’m always thinking about, oh, i know someone that i could connect you to, you know, but i often have felt at least over the last year, even though i think of that i don’t have a lot of tools that i have developed for myself in that moment to capture the idea. Like, i always assume i’ll remember, you know, a week later when i’m back in the office and then i’m like, i’m going to connect somebody, somebody else who knows who those people were, so i wanted. I want to think about two older processes for myself collecting cash through those ideas better because i know, you know, taking somebody says this heart is not the process that’s going to help me do that understand, put in my pocket, you know, the best kind of wear those pants like you say that booth with that person is, you know, you could do better than that. I mean, what about my method is taking notes on your business card with a hand when when i get it, yeah, but then i have to have a pen and what i found to be the biggest issue with that is that you begin that process is the number of people who print hyre, you know, business cars where you can’t write on them, like i have a laminated one, practically one yeah. Hey, yeah, so and that i feel like austin, when i’m with and then, you know, scratching into the surface instead of actually hyre upleaf exactly card course, but, you know, i always have my phone with me, even if i don’t have my wallet or my brain or anything else, i have my phone, so i’m going to test out and they would talk about this on your show, but i’m going to test out different out spur this kind of, you know, process to help me make sure that i should follow up with people and make the connections that i’m thinking of, okay, so you already have pulled in mind or you have to go. Yeah, i have a few, you know, some of them are based on getting someone out there starting some of them are more life pre-tax management depends on what works, you know, for my process in that, but there are a few that have been recommended to me, but i’m going okay, but overall, just be willing to do going to connect people, and i’ve always found communism that’s a basic latto tenet of fund-raising too. You don’t only know dahna silo a donor or potential bonem relationship only to yourself preserve it only to yourself, but to introduce two persons to other people in the organization, other potential donors because they might have something, you know, they might have a mama’s group, they might have killed your comments, or they might have fourteen in common. I don’t want to go into more detail that fort because of myself, but, you know, they might have muscle cars also wanted i don’t mind fixing things i don’t know anything about, you know, whatever they have in common, you know you want to make connections, and yeah, i mean, we’re in a connected world exactly much some people can isolate us a little bit, but we’re not actually well, what i really wished i haven’t found a way how anyone that has any of you listening to me? But i really wish that link in had a component where i could put, like, on my connection between myself and you. This is when tony and i first met or business when need in our first radio show together, you know, whatever saying feels noteworthy, you know, like a personal, personally, but you you got the public didn’t see that you know, this valley on adding it to your profile or something, but that’s where, you know, so many people rely on track of all of their professional connections. I wish that there was a way that just have a note that said, this is the conference where not person or, you know, come on and talk about whatever, like a mini prn exactly, you know what i’m like? And then what was great about leikin for me, we’ve gone down a rabbit hole, but, you know, none of the listeners stoploss now, so i hope you know what i think is great about later is that you coming out of u and i instead of making us somebody, you and i may know each other because of the radio show and maybe, you know, because i was in new york. And we attended some non-profit meet up together or something. But to you, that could be a really small part of all that is tony martignetti professional world, right. And and it’s, helpful for me to know this is how i know the person that i really like going to link into that i could see. Oh, wow. Tony has done all these other things. He has these other connections from other professional world that i’m not a part of versus creating your lot. People invested in time and making that personal database. The business card they collected people they meet, but it’s on ly then this sliver of how you know that that’s my life relying on lincoln, because then people can fill out their entire world, right? And i only knew them from one piece of it. But now i can still see oh, they have done all these other programs they have had these past job. You know, all of those other pieces? Yeah. It’s. So much more than you know about them. Okay, yeah. Unfortunately, i have to. It injects the artificial ality of being on show and you’ve got a way to take a break, okay got to take a break. Tell us credit card payment processing the video. They want you to watch the video. I would like you to watch the video. It’s not a long video. It’s tony dahna slash tony tell us, explains this whole process of business is switching over to tell us what the advantages are, how, how easy it is seamless it is, um, remember if if it turns out the tellers can’t save them money on their processing fees, then you get two hundred fifty dollars for each referral that you make that they can’t save the money on, but odds are they’re gonna be able to save the money, and then if the company switches that’s, where you get this long revenue tail, you know, there’s a hundred percent satisfaction rate among businesses and non-profits at tell, oh, so this is going to be a long, long revenue tail they’re going to keep your business is satisfied that make the switch and you’re going to be getting fifty percent of the revenue that tell us earns month after month after month so, you know, start thinking about the businesses that it makes sense. To refer local trucking company and i hope they’re drivers are home get there’ll be home each week messenger service but i hope they’re bikers are wearing reflective vests. The chinese restaurant. They gotta have general tso’s chicken, right. Make sure you try that italian restaurant, and i hope they offer a whole wheat pasta option. Please, please vote for that. If they do the thai restaurant on dh, you know, tie. You know they don’t use chopsticks taii with a fork and a spoon and spoon doubles as a knife. So check these all out. Think about the businesses. Watch the video, tony. Dot m a slash tony tello’s now back to any sample ward and her twenty eighteen plan more than any simple ward let’s. Keep talking about her twenty eighteen plan. Um, have you got everything you wanted exhaust on? What lincoln would do a little bit more way could spend when you’re talking about what i wished for every one that’s out there, but yes, for now. And happy to resolve that. Okay, so we still have a couple more minutes together. Okay. Um what what? What else you got for us? Years? Twenty eighteen plant. Well, you know what? Vincent, from the iss back when i was writing a book or having to publish content were regularly in-kind another book, you’ve done, all your books, i don’t know, and i’m happy to write another book, i just don’t know what it would be on, you know? So send your ideas my way, way, you know, different when i was in times of having to create a lot of content, it was easier because it felt like, on actual deadline, you know? And so since then, especially the last year, so it is always on my list, you know, i need to write several articles are i’ve even committed to this outlet to write something, but it is always the last thing on my list, you know? And i just hate that at ten we call it a shame spiral where because you feel that about something you then don’t engage with that day, but if they’re not engaging with it, more time has passed, so they feel worse about it. But then you feeling more like not with it? So then, you know, to learn will go by and i have to, like, reach out. To that outlet and say, so what? I’m honestly really sorry that i’ve not written this article i submitted a few months ago, but also i feel like so bad that i maybe can’t ever write it because i just feel so bad now, you know, it’s only this it’s so late in the relationship with partly from back-up abila what’s on now, i have somebody i owe something to boy, it was even paid content and he’s a good guy, and he sends a reminder once a month on, and i think i’ve gotten like, for those mind way still talk, we will talk about that. I know you just go down the way with viral. The one thing that we’ve started talking about is same claim instead of kayman viral just saying at the beginning, you know what? Like there is something about this project or the commitment or this act that, like i know is going to take me into same finals, i’m gonna own it up front and, like let’s, change the topic of the article. I’m obviously not interested in this one if i’m not going to connect, you know, whatever, whatever it is, just two more since claiming and lesson spiraling because i really like creating content, you know, sharing whether they’re my ideas are other people’s ideas from interviewing someone or whatever. I really love being able to create value and share content with the community, but i know in his destine such a source of that same spiraling. So this year i really want teo again. Maybe this is similar to the one where where the focus is actually on creating better thing for myself. But i want to find some ways where i do my calendar. My us on my mental state create room for those commitments instead of feeling like i always have to something for something now? Yeah. Playing your same one move. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, did you have any, uh, platforms or after that suggests that way? Just keep an eye on. Not that we jumped in, but anything emerging around the inten conversations that we should look at, you know? I mean, i posted it from staff, but i haven’t gotten a lot of answers back. A lot of folks are more about left. About three asked you. Have you have on your phone or something? And more about the way content outlets are changing. I think you were talking about on the show, but also we’ve all probably witnessed the way that content people, news content and in-kind contributed, you know, individual content changed in the last eighteen months because of the political landscape on dh peer-to-peer organizations are certainly a part of that shit, you know, both sensational kind of content and very, very pointed content and so dafs are less may be interested in emerging individual act and more what what’s gonna happen or what has already happened in with the way that content is being published and who’s sharing it and who who had the privilege of publishing that content, you know, and all that gets wrapped up in that that’s interesting because i feel like it’s related to a couple of things you and i were just talking about, i know that, you know, setting aside time for creative and, you know, getting over these obstacles that got, you know, changing the contract, but i think you said it must be that interesting, teo three months on, doll so you know what we started when dilgence talking about so the way you are feeling the way you are using you devolved, you’re you so, you know, the the huge platforms so i feel like i feel like the way the staff is has responded to you is similar to what you were thinking yourself sounds like, right? Yeah, yeah, in a way, for sure, and i think people came out it from different experiences themselves or, you know, different kind of focuses, but ultimately, i think everyone does center around that idea of who who’s behind all this microphone to smooth talk on them study was saying, how is this in passing? All of our community is how is this impacting our work? How are we a part of it? You know, what i’m basically saying is that they all are jealous that you’re on the radio every month, another country? Yeah, i remember you now the center of the universe, the way that’s, my believe that’s my interpretation of what you just always right on, you know, it’s right on and i and i hold it over all of that. So wei have one minute left together and i really have more than more than useful nastad out for non-profit technology. Conference twenty k. Yeah, the ntc this year will be in april, april eleventh through thirteen, and we will be in new orleans at the convention center on the the kind of plan on a longer hey insider protest is that the conference is wednesday through friday, but that we spend is a friend’s porters oppcoll so come come for the npc day for the french quarter enjoying new orleans. Awesome, thank you. A simple words, social media contributors piela then ten at ten dot org’s she’s at amy rs board thank you. Maybe i really didn’t know. Yeah, it was really fun getting to a phone call version. I know i agree. Vice bite-sized next week it’ll be a winner. There are no losers on non-profit radio. Well, maybe one i’m working on it. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant. Unlike tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing bye weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telus credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream tony dot, m a slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Shows social media is by susan chavez, and our music is by scott stein. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine am or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address. Card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 29, 2017: Giving Tuesday Friday

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Jessica Schneider: Giving Tuesday Friday

It’s not too late to make a splash for Giving Tuesday, November 28th. But “too late” is fast approaching. Jessica Schneider from the 92nd Street Y has your last minute tips, tricks and strategies.

 

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Giving Tuesday Friday

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Schnoll oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week it’s, laura packard she’s been a guest on the show and she got dissed directly personally by donald trump. You may have seen her story. She has stage four cancer, hodgkin’s lymphoma. She was tweeting to the president about health care policy and the collins gray and bill, and he blocked her. He doesn’t know that. He’s messing with a non-profit radio guest now he’s out of bounds. Laura, i’ve got your back. You have a lot of courage. Congratulations on being non-profit radio listener of the week. We love you, laura packard and i so admire what you’re doing. Congratulations. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into ginger vos toma titus if you come to me up with the idea that you missed today’s show e-giving tuesday it’s not too late to make a splash for giving tuesday, november twenty eighth jessica schneider from the ninety second street why has your last minute tips tricks strategies, then it may not be too late, but too late is fast approaching amy sample ward has what you need for giving tuesday success in the social networks she’s, our social media contributor and ceo event in the non-profit technology network it’s giving tuesday for the hour today on tony’s, take two e-giving tuesday, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by wagner cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apolo see accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we’ll be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com what a pleasure to welcome jessica snyder to the show. She is the director of strategy and collaboration at the ninety second street wise belfer center for innovation. She spearheads several i love that word spearheads levin. Use that in a long time. That’s good that’s a good buy a word, good resume word, too. I should remember that my never search for jobs, but for friends. She spearheads several initiatives and programs, including e-giving tuesday, the women in power, fellowship and social good summit she’s worked at rent the runway, general assembly and the paley center for media. You’ll find the y at nine to wide dot or ge and she’s at your pal jess. Welcome, pal, your pal. Just i love that. What would you do that twitter ideas? Very clever like that your pal? Just, you know, by the time i got around to joining twitter, which is sad that i didn’t join it right away, kind of every form of jessica or just schneider on been taken on. Yeah, i don’t know where how that came to me, but i i thought about changing to something more professional, but at this point, i think it, you know, stay with it, no latto partnership work, and i feel like i’m you know, people spell well, i love it. Yes, you should stick with it now don’t it’s not unprofessional, it’s, just different messes difference. Clever falik um, okay, so let’s kick off our power on giving tuesday with a little bit of history? Sure, that’s things started it with henry, tim’s and who’s been on the show, henry in twenty fourteen. I’m talking about giving to them, but give us a little background. Sure, i think i’ll start just by explaining a lot of people when they hear i work at the ninety second street y and giving tuesday what the connections there is. So if you don’t live in new york city or you aren’t familiar with ninety second street y, we are one hundred and forty three year old community in cultural organization on new york city’s, upper east side. We are everything you associate with the community center. We have a very renowned pre school programs for the elderly school of the arts dance classes with jim, i work in the belfer center for innovation, and our center is really tasked with taking ninety uae’s mission core concepts that have really been the foundation of the institute for the past hundred forty years of building community, of civic based dialogue of philanthropy and thinking about those in a twenty first century context. Okay, so i give him that background just because of people like why is this community centre the hump of giving jesus thats why don’t your that’s the connection e-giving tuesday, i think is supported by all those exactly fit so well into all those. So back in two thousand twelve, henry tim’s, who is now our executive director at the time he headed up one of the centers at ninety y he just had this this idea there’s black friday and cyber monday, two days that unite the retail community, as we all know, to great advantage for them. Great advantage for us. And what if there was a way to unite the philanthropic community as well? And he often jokes, you know, someone was going to claim that tuesday, why am i not the good guys? So, yeah, from the beginning, it’s been a very simple idea, but we spent very little time planning it. Our first year, we kind of last year was when two thousand twelve we’re going to our six year now you spent a couple months just gathering a coalition of people in the philanthropic world and by that, i don’t just mean non-profits a nutritional sense, there were houses of worship, schools, corporations, small businesses, families, associations, way they’re the first year i was there the first year starting oh, yeah. Okay on. And it was really just kind of put out a call that we want to make this day special. We want to bring everyone together. You want to incentivize giving one? To get people excited about giving and let’s, just as an experiment put it on the calendar all kind of got into the world together and worked very closely at the time with our friends at the united nation and foundation in there brilliant communications team helping kind of home dellaccio nastad watch your show, she also runs gelato get us out of d c, where you went to school, you went to georgetown, runs gelato shop for shops? I don’t know, but she still i don’t think she would, you know, she’s, now that we work heading up come some of their social condition and we were, which is sure fascinating and definitely worth reaching out to her because they’re doing really interesting work there. Yes, so we just kind of launched and he said, we’ll be cool. One hundred people participated, a hundred organizations did something that first year on ultimately we ended up with twenty, five hundred participate organizations that we knew of who could kind of officially registered through our site and then just on social media, that data start hearing about all these cool things happen around the country, so we knew we were we were onto something and i’ll just say the first year and this kind of continues to be our ethos, so talk about it, but more as we go along it’s always been a very open movement. We’ve never said this is the right way to participate in giving tuesday or the wrong way. We’ve never supported one platform over another and one cause over the other. We just want to see people uniting, um around the idea of giving back and not just money, but also time probono work advocacy, it’s all any form of giving is what i have to say. Now, what was the moment of we’ll be able to talk about fertilization? Like what was the very first thing about giving tuesday within an email from henry to some people who said, i’m thinking about this let’s have a meeting or when did you first come up that you can remember? Yeah, i was brought into it about a month into the process. From what i remember, it really started with henry and our other colleagues, asha curren just traveling around and having cheating on the show with us, i think, if not last year, two years. Ago talks e-giving tuesday. Yes, yes. He’s, our chief innovation officer at ninety y but we didn’t want to ever be the owners at this movement. And even though we always say we’re the home where the stewarts but we wanted this to be built by the community to start what do you remember? Is the starting the first time you heard? I think it was even the phrase giving tuesday. But like the first time you had this concept, i think the first time for me personally was henry pulling me into his office at the time. There’s. No, even now, there’s no one who works on giving tuesday full time. And i was doing different work at nine to and he just said there’s, this cool idea immediately clicked with me and intercepts if i would help with some partnership work for it, i think on henry’s and it maybe start with a conversation with kind of u n f and kind of that was the start. I think there was a dinner party where the idea was first tossed around and people reacted very positively to it. But i think henry would remember that better than i do there? Okay. So you were near the near the you were like a month in? Yeah, yes. Labeling the embryonic. We’re still in the embryonic stage. I think ways when there was enough momentum that henry realized he couldn’t do this on his own and manage a massive department at a large non-profit where he needed a someone else on his team e-giving sometime and and brain power to it. So let’s assure people now, september twenty ninth so i got all of october and most of the vast majority of november. It’s not too late right now, it would have been better if you had been planning. Like since the summer. That would have been better. But it’s not too late. No, no, definitely not. And i think there’s again, i will go back to c p times there’s no right or wrong way to bird to spain giving tuesday. So i would say the there’s many non-profits for whom giving tuesday is really the cornerstone of their fund-raising for the year and in january, when they lay out their fund-raising plan for the year more their volunteers and plan or their advocacy plan e-giving tuesdays a cornerstone. Of that, and they kind of plan all year around it. But there’s other organizations who are new to giving tuesday who exactly at this time, two months out or like, yeah, maybe we should try something this year and i think what’s really great about how e-giving tuesday he functions and how it is a great opportunity for non-profits to try something new, to do some experimentation, way about rule without rules. And if there is some idea that’s just been circulating on your team, maybe e-giving tuesday’s the perfect time to give it a chance. So not too late at all earlier, you planning the better, but especially if you’re kind of new to giving tuesday and aren’t sure what you’re going to do just the first year doing something smaller. Small start small, right? Exactly, yeah, don’t be overwhelmed, right? It’s not an overwhelming thing. There’s not rules and reports. And aside from what you want to do internally, there’s no, act like this is this is why so many people thinking has flourished because has not managed centrally there’s there’s a resource there’s, a page of sight of tools will get to the tools and resources. And then from there, it’s, you’re own your own desire. Start small. Do something modest, make it the cornerstone of your your fourth quarter, if you like exactly. Okay. I like tio. What else? You know what? Also we gotta go to break. Where was your two fingers? Two minutes ago? I didn’t see them. I didn’t see them these. And then i didn’t see the one. All right, sam says time for break. I didn’t see any fingers. Okay, let’s, go out for a break and then we come back. Of course, jessica and i just getting into giving tuesday stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way schnoll ideas for the other ninety five percent and when i was about to say was that another thing i like about it is there’s so many vastly different calls to action? People think of giving to say nothing of money first, but by no means is it limited to raising money? Give me some other examples that you’ve seen yeah, i think one thing i love about giving tuesday is it really is a way to bring people together, and giving is just such a universal value, it’s something that really unites us. And i think one of the reasons giving tuesday last year really resonated with people. I think we’ll see that again this year is you no matter your politics, no matter you know, the many things that divide us, giving tuesday and the unity that can happen around giving it’s just really amazing to see how that can bring people together is such a common a common thing, so in particular kind of volunteer events on dh in person activations are some of our favorite things to see around giving tuesday. One thing that just popped into my head from last year is there’s, a group called city dads so that’s it it’s in many cities it’s ah meet up group it’s organized around meet ups on and it’s a just dad’s getting together to do volunteer work and kind of create camaraderie and sabat the fact their dads it’s just kind of organizing principle it’s more of a volunteer group, and they partnered with plum organics x, which is a baby food company. And on giving tuesday in cities around the country, they went, teo homeless shelters and other places where people drop off clothing and food kind of assemble little packets that could be given to those in need. And it was just it was giving tuesday, people are looking to do something, and they were able to just organize this event that brought all these dads together, and often i feel like it’s mom to get a lot of the credit or we’re getting out and volunteer work and two year old to shine a light on that kid’s and baby food exactly be moms, but school exactly, and and for plum organics just a great opportunity for them to highlight there social good work and how they give back to the community justice. Such a natural fit so that that pops to my head one of the really most exciting elements of giving tuesday that’s developed over the past few years, and we kind of recognized it was happening and have been trying to support it, but it started very organically are giving tuesday community movements, so these are kind of locally organized coalitions of non-profits businesses, governments, schools in cities, towns, counties and states around the country. Last year, they’re around eighty five of them. Everything from e-giving tuesday, illinois e-giving tuesday, new york e-giving tuesday, charlotte e-giving tuesday, dallas sometimes they re brand more significantly than that to tiny little towns. There’s one in bethel, alaska, which is just a thing just a couple thousand people, they have one one stop sign in town and all the non-profits throughout the day took turns standing at that non-profit and collecting money, but also raising awareness that was then split amongst the non-profits in town and then they had almost like a science fair, but for non-profits, where they call to set up booths and people could come and learn about the different services, either because they want to give back or because maybe that could benefit that from them and really isn’t giving tuesday as a rallying point, but i also want to mention the community campaign so just really what happens if someone steps up and each one of these cities not even necessarily? Non-profit but an individual sometimes soc with non-profits eyes like i see the power of giving tuesday, i see how it can bring people together, and i want to create something grassroots in my hometown and really own it and really personalized giving tuesday not just in my organization, but for the people around me i wanted for the community it’s so lovely, and we as a team, i’m have someone on our staff now, um, who works with us part time, really? To support those community leaders and excellent okay, so let’s get it. I want to get some of the support that’s there, and i’ll just add, though, but what’s really exciting to see in the community aspect is how they support each other and how, when there’s a new community leader that comes on board how people within the already on the giving tuesday team not at ninety weinger out in the world offer advice and say this is what we learned. Oh, you’re a comparable size city here’s how we there’s there’s a ninety white community around community work exactly exactly. You know, i should have asked you just let’s get some basic stats out of the way? How many organizations do we know participated last year? We’ve talked you talked already about some of the things they’ve done, but i want you working how many tens of thousands this’s not me evading the question, but we’ve stopped counting because really, when we reached movement capacity, it’s just impossible to do b of activations and over one hundred countries that we know of it’s so vast we ask people to sign up on our web site, they could be little official partner would or not, but because it’s open source there’s no reason for people tio need to do that, and it’s isn’t a good measure of where we are. So we say hundreds of thousands of organizations on bank lose again, not just non-profits some of the stats we do like to quote is last year online, the twenty five’s e-giving tuesday, one hundred seventy seven million dollars was donated that we know of on lauren homes on, so that does not include offline. It does not include anything that happened outside of those twenty four hours, eight and that’s only dollars and that’s only dollars and just kind of other exact action we talked to talked about and get and and, you know, if a boardmember does one hundred thousand dollar match that day, that’s not in that amount, so it really is just a small fraction of the total giving but it’s nice for us because we can use it to kind of benchmark year over year and see where xero growth is, at least from from that metric i’ve seen petition drives, you know, it’s critical petition for your cause. All right, so let’s get into what people confined if they maybe they’ve done something in the past, they like to do a little more whatever or if there’s the first year, and they’re not that acquainted with it. What are they going to find at e-giving tuesday? Dot org’s? Sure. So i would say the best place to start is the download our complete tool kit, which is a very long document. I would at least art by skimming that which has kind of the basic language e-giving tuesday timeline, timeline, press really sample social media and i think also it’s helpful, because when the best things you khun dio when you’re starting giving tuesday at your organization is to get e-giving tuesday, team going not just one person running giving tuesday, so the toolkit isn’t just for you to read and like, oh, now i can run, giving tuesday starita lead to read and then become a leader of your organization around giving tuesday, but there’s lots of plug and play tools like tweets and press releases if you wanted to work on being a mayor or a proclamation mayoral proclamation tool kit yeah, which i know seems very specific, but it’s something that people love to do and it’s such a great just morale booster when that proclamation comes in a few days before giving tuesday and you’ve been plugging along just to know i remember our first year was mayor bloomberg time gave did one and and we were it was one of those moments that first year where it made us feel really so i just want to share that feeling with people, but i would say one is going to get through the tool kit and just going understanding what it’s all about case studies are a great place to go so that we all have a case study which has for non-profits and kind of the other types of organizations that that could participate local non-profits larger non-profits and with the case studies, if something piques your interest because the others, they’re pretty short, you can just kind of google the organization and giving tuesday and and find out much more see, you know, but the page look like and, you know, really delve more into that, and the other thing you do on the site is signed up for for our newsletter that also get you listed as an official giving tuesday partner in-kind of one and the same and then you’ll get when we add resource is you’ll be aware of those webinars webinars webinars coming? I can’t listen about the top of my head, but bojan e-giving tuesday at orc slash events now you’ll see a list of what’s coming up i know we have one with fire spring next week yeah, there’s always new things being added and leslie, we have a blog’s so as we have examples of what’s coming up for this upcoming year, we update that and we love it when people submit to our blogged what they have in the works less like tio here where this great organization or run e-giving tuesday campaign and more where they were great, we’re a great organization run e-giving to state campaign here’s what our campaign is here’s what we learned last year and how we’re changing because we really want the community to be learning from each other ideas to make the pie bigger, not to get you a bigger slice of it. Excellent and that’s all giving tuesday dot org’s exactly all e-giving tuesday, there was even a year there’s a plan giving toolkit that’s what you do plant giving consulting so everything is close to me close to my heart yeah, you could make plan giving part of your of your giving tuesday plan giving workplace giving if you work with a of for-profit who or even your own non-profit if they do workplace giving, you can think about how to use giving tuesday to incentivize enrollment to poor, bigger gifts on that day. Really limitless. Okay, bonem so i pulled together some some stories from that from this’s from the toolkit, like local non-profits, you know, and again to emphasize your point, this is not only by no means is this only for big organizations. There’s a of the naacp rat free library in baltimore, maryland there, when they’re one of my favorites, somebody from you know, what, two people i got two interviews from people at at ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference, i think we’re talking about energizing volunteers, and they were to ana panel two out of a panel three were from the naacp rat free library, you love them e-giving tuesday wise, yeah, what i personally love around giving tuesdays is when people use it to be collaborative and creative, and i think their campaign is a great intersection of those two. They’ve run a similar campaign the past two years where there’s they find, like the closest football game closest in time football game this year, it was against cleveland, and they challenge a library in that city teo fund-raising contest and then the losing flues and everyone’s a winner except one’s, raising less money but the executive director of the losing library has teo like, if i can remember if they want or not last year, but as much of a football fans, i yeah, but the executive director of that of the other library would like to dress up like edgar allan poe and have to read the ravens and it’s all under the hashtag book bowl e-giving tuesday on they raised i think around forty thousand dollars from that and i mean for a library, when you think about library fund raisers, you know, make sales, i mean it’s it’s online it’s bringing young people in social it’s fun, it’s kind of goofy and just the celebratory nature of it is is so in the spirit of giving tuesday dahna xero i love it’s a small organizations, i mean that’s, what non-profit radio is small and midsize shop from ours from our survey results we which is not so i’m not scientific. About ninety percent of respondents have budgets of less than ten million, so that’s at least we know it’s kind of taking advantage of our website and our resource is but also data we’ve we’ve seen from organizations like blackbaud about who’s participating and mohr and more every year, donations are going to smaller and mid size non-profits okay, people think that, you know, i think it’s one of the misconception people have around giving days or coming tuesday is it’s like the big guys, your elbow, their ways, and but this is really an equalizer, and you know what? Just just to dispel that that myth, i’m going to read some of these organizations that are that are that i got from the e-giving tuesday took it home of the sparrow in extent, pennsylvania, right? That’s not that is not an international organization table in chapel hill, north carolina, in tulsa stem alliance, tulsa, oklahoma, better future facilitators, akron, ohio. Malvin, pennsylvania baker industries so you should not be you should not be put off by your size around giving tuesday. In fact, you should be energized by your size lawyers for children don’t meet me these organizations. You just not heard of operations supply drop in austin, texas okay, so we’re putting that putting that mr bed killing it? Actually, i’d rather not die just sleep because it could wake up let’s, just kill it and it won’t be resurrected because it’s not a holy body. So all right, what else? What else can we say about giving tuesday for a couple minutes? I’m sure i would say another thing we’re just really excited about going into this next year, and i mentioned that we had one hundred global activities and one hundred treyz last year, but specifically there are now thirty five, global movements. So these are countries where an organization like a ninety second street y equivalent has stepped up and said, we want to really own giving tuesday not just at our organization, not just in our town, but for our entire condor country. And these are places have no thanksgiving, no no tradition of black friday or cyber monday. It is so amazing to see we just had in the past couple weeks giving tuesday india e-giving tuesday, panama e-giving tuesday, liberia is new this year and kind of like i mentioned with our community leaders e-giving tuesday here in the u s we kind of bring everyone together, but then just to see how they all learn from each other, it’s been one the most fascinating aspects of the movement as we’ve grown and i think it’s a really powerful on giving tuesday, which has been since the beginning to say to people, no, every act of generosity counts. It means more when we get together something really cool when you give on giving tuesday and you go on your facebook page and you see all your friends are also giving and talking about it. And then to think this is having a global scale. There’s someone in tanzania painting a house, there’s someone in, you know, bangladesh donating blood and to know that’s all happening on this single day. I think that messaging really resonates with people. And again at that time of year, it’s goingto holidays just to be celebratory. And how cool is that? They were all coming together to do something positive. Awesome. You know, you were gonna leave it there because i think you’re not standing that’s outstanding. Get involved with giving tuesday. The place to go is giving tuesday dot or ge? I’m sure jessica at your pal, jess. You having to help you? If you want a tweet, her, your pal jess on. And, of course, the ninety two, ninety secretary. Why, you know, shout them out because that’s! What started? But that’s not where you going to find the resource? Is there at nine to why dot or ge, but really the place you want to start he’s giving tuesday dot or ge? Is that right? Direct and also, of course. Follow us on social media on twitter and facebook. What the organization on twitter on twitter it’s e-giving choose e-giving two’s okay, no day, rios. Guess e-giving twos and at your pal just thank you so much. Of course. Outstanding court also. Know what you can hang around, right? I like that. Okay. Okay. When? When amy sample ward comes on, i will introduce you. All right, so we got a lot more on giving tuesday. Coming up first. Um pursuant the intelligent fund-raising health check. Have you gotten this thing yet? You’ve heard me talk about it for a couple weeks. Download it for nine key performance indicators. Those kp eyes. Hippies. You gotta have your kp eyes. You gotta have, you know, it’s the best practices that’s out now. It’s kip he’s okay. Or alive. That’s what? I call them hippies. That sounds like a breakfast seal. Like i want my i want i want chocolate milk. With mike hippies this morning, but kp eyes there’s ten universal characteristics of organizations that are thriving in fund-raising universal this is this is big the’s. The ten biggest ideas in the universe. This is duitz wait. So which is which is bigger? A solar system. No solar system is inside the universe, right? Isn’t aren’t solar system subsets of universes? Yeah, yeah. So this is not just i mean, if yeah, if these were dying, um, solar system ideas are no ten. If these ten solar system characteristics of thriving org’s, then i would say, you know, it’s really not worth it, but he’s a universal. So you’ve got you’ve got to go get the ten universal characteristics, not merely solar system. Um, get the free paper it’s at its on the non-profit radio listener landing page that pursuing has set up. And, of course, you know where that is. It’s a tony dahna may slash pursuant. Remember the capital p you’ve got to do that well, your cpa’s they do go way beyond the numbers that’s what they say and actually do it weinger cpas. They’re adding value way beyond accounting. They have all these policy statements free. Resource is for you again, just like just like giving tuesday. Dot org’s. They have something on fiscal sponsorship policy. They have a fiscal policy agreement. Now. We just talked about fiscal sponsorships. About a month ago, jean takagi was on with andrew shulman, and the subject was physical sponsorships for the hour. So if you want a lot more detail on that, there was september first september first show. So if you want a lot more detail on that, you can find an agreement. You could find a policy rechner, cps, giving these things away. They have ah, accounting policies and procedures manual ah bank statement review form. You know you’re reviewing bank statements. Hopefully you’re doing it every single month. Are you are you checking everything that you should be? Let the cps tell you what you should be reviewing when you do your monthly bank statement reviews each month your monthly each month that’s redundant. When you do these, you want to have a checklist in front. All right? So somebody more policies sepa is giving free advice. Go to regular cpas. Dot com quick resource is then guides stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books. Quickbooks sage? Yeah, they’ll be fine if you were a business, but you’re not you’re non-profit you’ve heard rumors to this effect, right? You’re non-profit kaplow’s accounting. It is designed for non-profits from the ground up meat from the outset, from the ground they have non-profits in mind, not corporate entities. So make your non-profit accounting do it easier, appaloosa counting easy, affordable designed for you. They’re at non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony’s take to my latest video is giving tuesday. All right, now, that’s. That particular video introduces this. Show so if you’re listening to the show podcast or affiliate or alive, you don’t really need the video because you skipped that you could skip that step, but there are links below. Teo e-giving tuesday roundup that i’ve got, including a video that where there’s possum shooting in the background you gotta you gotta check out this possum shooting video that i did in the in the mountains of tennessee. Um, yeah, just check out the possum shooting. So e-giving tuesday sort of video and round up that is all at aa my site, which is tony martignetti dot com, which i momentarily forgot. Okay. Um, let’s see? Got any sample ward on the phone on? Dh jessica schneider can hang out with us. You know, any sample ward is she’s a social media contributor. She’s, the ceo of antenna non-profits technology network. Her most recent co authored book is social change any time everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample ward, dot or ge and at amy rs ward. They are, of course, is for rene. Welcome back, amy rene. Hi. Hi, that’s. Why i give you this if you serve. Yeah, if you serve intro. That so you could get a little high so you can do slow. It felt so appropriate after such a long intro, it was just like the period at the end of the sentence. Okay, meet jessica schneider. Any sample ward? Hi, jessica. Hi, amy, nice to meet you, telefund lugo jessica can hang out with think we’ve even emailed before, but this is our first time getting teo talk on non-profit radio together. That is true for sure that, ok, eso jessica can hang out with us, and i, uh, i took the liberty of ah, hailing us of her of her extra time. So is that okay, right? I would love that. I knew you would. I knew you were giving person. All right, we’re talking about giving tuesday. Let’s see you. You have some, you know, you’re you’re a strategist and also a tactician. We talked a lot about strategy. I think with jessica let’s, get into some tactical ideas you like you like having people set up in advance. To who, you know, we’re going to be your champions. Well, when we talked about this before and other contacts now for that same, like a e-giving day, like giving to this whillans, you know, so it will not be new tto learn that i’m a fan of letting your community lead instead of the organization be the one out in the lead. I really think that a day let giving tuesday where you’re trying to reach as many folks as possible, but we all know and a lot of what’s going to capture their attention is storytelling and people really being able to speak clearly about the value of your mission. And i think it’s much better when other community members are making that appeal versus just the organization, because everyone’s going to respond to that same? Well, of course, the organization thinks it’s important. You worked there. You know where? Hearing that from a community member. Can can actually be really powerful and potentially change people’s mindset click through and learn a little bit more so i always recommend for organizations, especially organizations where this will be their first time participating and giving tuesday to set up. It doesn’t have to be an overwhelming, like fifty person list, you know could be five people, but make sure you have kind of a social media champions list of people who already have social media accounts, they already know how to use them. They’re probably posting frequently so there, you know, the folks that are connected to them on various channels aren’t going to be surprised when all of a sudden they’re posting about this, but they don’t have to be, you know, quote unquote vips, they don’t have to be superstar, don’t teo? Yeah, what matters is that the people that they are connected to like them and respond to them and engage with them, right? That doesn’t matter what their job title is are or where they live, anything like that, they haven’t engaged group of friends and family and an extended network that’s really what’s going to make him a great champion i’m giving to you so recruit them ahead of time, make sure they know that yes, i’m often in to do this for you, but you’re not making them do a bunch of work, so you’re telling them will send you example, facebook posts their example tweets, we’ll send you photos you can use so they know that what they’re being asked for as their voice in their leadership. But you’re not making them to a bunch of work to come up with what to say and some of those example resource is people will find at giving tuesday dot or ge jessica, how about that idea of the community speaking for you? Yes, i hundred percent agree with everything that amy just said, and it reminded me, i think those of us who work in the nonprofit world, everyone listening right now, um, often thinks on giving tuesday, you know, you get a lot of emails it’s giving tuesday donate to our cause and it’s very important to think about how you’re going to stand out in that crowd, but at the same time, there are so many people who aren’t part of the philanthropic community who don’t give online who are. Going, tio not get any of those emails on giving tuesday and that’s, why it’s so important to think about how you’re going to reach them as well and thinking of your community, is your ambassadors, you know, i might get five or six e-giving tuesday emails, someone else might not get a single email, but they’re going to see something in their facebook freed from there. Best friend from high school saying, no, i support cancer research, it’s giving tuesday. It would mean a lot to me. If you gave to this organization, they do amazing work, so just just think about that and ah, and how you confess, utilize those ambassadors on giving tuesday, amy let’s, go back to you. What else? What else do you think? Well, i think beyond just engaging folk, something that we have heard a lot of organizations ask us about or rather kind of complain about is something very, very tactical that i think often organizations don’t think about until they’re in the moment, and that is a number of organizations have discovered that, you know, it’s giving today they’re participating, you know, dollars air coming in there, super excited, you know, they’re trying to keep that momentum going throughout the day, and they want to post on twitter on up state that says, oh, my gosh, you are goal for the day was to raise five thousand, and we just hit seventeen hundred, you know, help us get to the next amount and all of a sudden they’re hearing from their executive director or maybe their development director that that is not an improved post and that, for whatever reason there executive director or whomever else is giving this approval doesn’t want to share that kind of a milestone, and they’re like, well, but i’m in the middle of typing this tweet what else am i supposed to say? What’s going on? And it may sound surprising, but we have i’ve heard this dozens of times now from organization saying what what should i have done in that situation? Well, i guess my advice is to not get yourself in that situation. It is not yet giving. Tuesday is not the middle of you know the morning and you want to post that update so as you’re doing, you’re planning for this year’s giving tuesday think about what milestones you’re going to want to celebrate and get those approved ahead of time. Maybe it isn’t. Every single dollar that comes in your organization feels comfortable reporting that’s fine figure out what kinds of milestones you do have approval to celebrate so that you don’t have to be in the middle of typing that tweet and find out you can’t send it really think about how you khun frame different milestones throughout the day, as asked anybody that’s ever listen to public radio is going to know that they are ex first that that thinking about hey well, you know, our goal for this hour was two thousand and we’re eighteen fifty who, you know, do we have collars in the last ten minutes to get us up to two thousand? Figure out what those milestones are and how you can celebrate them and how you can use them as kind of another motivational asked throughout the day. All right, how come some organizations might not want to share dollar amounts that since you used that as an example, what? Well, the feedback i’ve gotten, i mean, at least in organizations where to come to me for advice about this is that today? Well, there are a number of different situations, but the majority of them is that they were worried that they wouldn’t hit the ultimate goal for the day and that they would be posting these messages about, you know, we’ve made it to this number, can you keep giving? And that people would perceive that as we’ve on lee made it to seventeen hundred, and we thought we’d make it to five thousand. Um so it was it was like they were intimate painting a perception issue, so they didn’t want to say the numbers i said, okay, okay, jessica, anything you want? Not maybe if not that specifically just about getting thinking ahead in your community i had about communications, that is, i think amy brings up a really great point that the milestone issue? Definitely i hadn’t heard that specifically, but it makes a lot of sense to me, but in general, i would just line up tons of potential tweets and facebook post you probably do less frequently on giving tuesday, but a few facebook posts funny gifts, which ifs like to pronounce it some images using that giving tuesday logo just have it all ready to go, because once the day starts, you know who knows what’s going to happen and having those just said you can cut and paste them if you were running around that someone else can cut and paste them in and you know they’re approved, we’ll just you don’t. Toby developing graphics that day more you could get ahead of time. Agree? Just make your life a lot easier if you and i have talked about that again. Other contacts having having images lined up in advance. So you’re not scrambling. I mean, you do that for you do that for ah, for ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of for a lot of organizations getting images lined up in advance also means making sure you have approval there. Probably, you know photos of people. So making sure that the photos that you want to be able to use on that day, or one where you actually have approval to use those photos, everything is good to go. So that, again, you don’t get stuck in the middle of drafting, opposed, because you don’t have approval. But i also think giving tuesdays a great time to think about images that aren’t just, you know, like a photo that you have taken of a room full of people, but an image that you create with some easy online tools, so that they could be more like graphics. Mostly, i’m making the recommendation because you’re probably going to be posting many times during the day compared to a normal day. And so, using different graphic struck, they can help. Just keep the post feeling fresh and new content out there. A little bit more appealing for folks to share when there’s a graphic sametz chart about all that you did in twenty seventeen that goes along with that tweet that’s asking people to get so it feels like you can get a little bit more information into the post and i’ll just add one more thing to that. Just a best practice we’ve seen is just using the giving tuesday has to hash tag often people. The first tweet of the day, the first facebook post they say it’s giving tuesday and don’t think to continue that throughout the day, and if they’re talking about campaign or doing this great storytelling work-life so i think as much as possible and in terms of approval when it comes to the giving tuesday logo and e-giving tuesday heart, we love to see creativity around that so well in advance. If you want, take the heart and give it to your graphics team or find some twosome probono work for you and change the colors. Whatever you want to do, you don’t have to run it by us and we love it when we see images pop up on giving tuesday that air. Using our logo in a creative way. Cool, cool, me, that’s. What you’ve always loved about giving tuesday is the decentralization. So exactly, and i think for a lot of organizations e-giving tuesday’s the first time, or the only time during the year that they really operate like this, that they would participate in a more global campaign, but also that they are asking for money in a way where they’re actually asking their community member for to make that asked, or that they’re doing it on social media versus, you know, really relying on a direct mail appeal, etcetera. All right, ladies, we’re going to take our take our break. When we come back, we’ll continue the convo. Everybody stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they are levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m jonah helper, author of date your donors. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. No big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Oppcoll we’ve got to do the live listener love, of course, we’ve got live listeners right now in laos, people’s, democratic republic of laos welcome live love to you and federal argentina also germany, gooden, dog, united kingdom don’t know which country i never, never just assume it’s, england, i don’t do that. Could be scotland islander whales united kingdom live love to you bring it here into united states who got younkers a little above new york city, brooklyn multiple brooklyn, multiple manhattan, tampa, tampa, florida live love to you, boston, mass. Bensalem, pennsylvania. Woodbridge, new jersey live love going out there all those places we’ve got someone in ukraine can’t see your city i’m sorry, but we know you’re with us and also in ah, china knee, how we’re south korea, but they’re out there there’s always someone from south korea, always always have sole on your haserot comes to harm nita. I know you’re out there on the heels of the of the live listeners love has to come to podcast pleasantries because there’s over twelve thousand of you listening on whatever device, whatever time and i am very glad that you are with us pleasantries to the podcast listeners. Thanks for being with us and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners throughout the country. Affections to you. Thank you for your thank you to your station for hosting us. And thank you to you. Thanks to you for listening. Non-profit radio affections to our affiliate listeners. Okay. Um example, word. Let’s. Go back to you and find out let’s. See what else? What, what? What advice do you have around giving tuesday? Let’s? Keep it so simple. Well, some advice that i have e-giving tuesday actually come from other a crowd funding type situations and research from crowd funding black forms who, you know people are using for all different types of campaigns all throughout the year, but their research of what makes a successful campaign one of the indicators of a campaign that will be successful and meet it, um, you know, posted goal are ones that regularly post updates on the page so that the content is different even throughout the day or throughout the campaign. If you know another it is not giving tuesday, i think that’s a really smart because you’re sending people to the same link over and over and when they click through, they’re going to want to see that something different, right? So making sure that you’re sending them to that link over and over, that you’re, you know, just like you would if it was a little like news ticker kind of page, you can edit that paige and make sure that you’re putting an update at the top, not the bottom. Every time folks click through, they see oh, it’s, an updated eleven thirty a m and we’re halfway there, great that’s something really short and exciting that maybe i’m one of your champions. I could just copy and paste that as a tweet myself, right? So it’s just a way to keep it fresh on the page, but also to give other people fun, exciting things to share on and help spread your message. Yeah, cool, you could do that right on your on the e-giving page? Absolutely. Okay, okay, jessica, anything you wanna add with respect to keeping the content fresh all day? Yeah, i would say that you’re giving tuesday doesn’t have to be a single day event again based on our limited survey research, about only about a third of organizations just do something on giving tuesday either it’s the middle of a campaign, the start of an end of the year campaign, sometimes the end of a november long campaign. So just a long line of what amy was saying if you are sending people to a page on giving tuesday and then throughout the course of a month or even if it’s a week long campaign, just think about what you could do on giving tuesday throughout today to make it make it unique and incentivize or different stories you could be telling, especially if the page is going to be up for longer than a day. Yeah, okay, and you you, of course, you always want to know what we’re measuring, what what ar metrics going to be for this campaign that we’re engaged in? Well, in my experience, something like giving tuesday feels like a very fast, action packed type of campaign, even a jessica saying, even if more than one day it’s still a pretty intensive, fast moving thing on dh. In my experience, that means that other folks in the organization, whether that means other staff leadership or boardmember i want to know if it was successful, justus quickly, they don’t want to wait three months for your next, you know, development update to learn about the success of the day and being able to report on that means you’re going to have to know in advance. So start thinking about this now is you’re doing, you’re planning, what are you gonna want to be able to measure and report on to know if it was successful or not? Because it may be that you didn’t set up yourself to be able to report on those things that you hadn’t thought about it. I used to give me an example aa lot of folks like tracking on giving tuesday kind of the reach of their messages because as we know, it isn’t just about the dollars range that day, but new folks who signed onto your newsletter people who maybe saw your messages and shared them so folks who were engaged in other ways and that means that you might want to set up certain tools you might wantto have a customized bentley or or other girl short ner link for your donation page that you’re using in all of your tweet so you can really see within that girl short ner screen how many tweets retweet that’s getting? How many folks are looking at how many people are clicking through you might wantto dive into your google analytics and set up some campaign you girls so that you can separate facebook traffic from email traffic from twitter traffic, for example, on dh you know, maybe you don’t care about those things just using those examples, but if you haven’t set them up ahead of time, it’s going to make it really difficult if you wanted to be able to report against those goals and of course, those air going to flow from what are your goals for the day, which which you’re always a proponent of, and we’ve also again talked about it many times. Why are you? Why are you in giving tuesday? What? What at the threshold what do you want to do for the day? Which jessica and i were talking about earlier? It could be any number of things from ah, community. A community day of service. Teo, i mentioned petitions. Could be dollars? Could be new volunteers, you know. What do you what’s your goal or goals for? The day and then that’ll drive. What you going to measure? What have i learned? Something from you through the years. I like it. At least that if i learned at least that much through the years. Okay? Yes, i like it. Okay, i’m trainable. Just anything you’d like to add, you know, metric wass no, but when one nava metrics, i think amy made a great point. But when, when she brought up reporting to board members and senior leadership, it just reminded me how important it is in advance of eating tuesday to get buy-in from that. Like, i love that you need to report to board members because it means that board members know it’s giving tuesday, and they’re excited and engage with your campaign and whenever there’s a reason i know all boards or different, but to engage your board around fund-raising in a new and different way, as opposed to kind of the traditional ways is great. So, yeah, i just i love that idea of getting the board onboard early and keeping them in the loop throughout the day and seeing how you can leverage their connections. And, of course, if a boardmember is willing to do a match always huge that especially if they’re planning on making an end of your gift anyway, saying to them, why don’t you use your end of your game, teo, as a match to kick off our giving tuesday campaign? Okay, cool, uhm ehm anything you’d like to add about e-giving tuesday way, i guess i’m the last thing i would want to say is that i don’t want to feel intimidated by the idea of participating and e-giving teams we have a small community of supporters are because i’ve never really done online fund-raising before, like you were saying, it doesn’t have to be a big fund-raising goal for you, maybe it’s just a chance for you to go get more people in your community to know about the programs you offer, recruit a new boardmember figure out that you have a handful of champions, right? It might just be kind of an introductory year with a lot of other goals that are still really important. Ilsen jessica, i wantto clothes with you tell tell me what you love about the work that you’re doing. I love that every giving tuesday i hear stories that we didn’t know campaigns, we don’t know we’re going to be happening happening that are just so heartwarming and show that there is such creativity in the nonprofit sector and that people are really thinking outside the box and want to experiment and want to try new things and in a way, that’s just just relate to it the more i just that it’s just so heartwarming that that e-giving tuesday khun really be this opportunity. Teo, bring us together to show, like, with the best in people and in just a fun, celebratory way. And i just love being witness to that. And you know where the home of giving tuesday, but really is a movement that’s built by families, individuals, all the non-profits out there so just yeah, thank you guys. Roll. Participating are considering participating. Absolutely. And you’re little more than a witness. You know, you’re a facilitator. Facilitator? Yes, but it’s it’s what all of you are going to do? That’s going? Teo make e-giving tuesday, two thousand seventeen. Amazing. Awesome. Amy, you wanna leave us with anything inspirational? Last? Well, you did. You know i don’t want to jump spot again. You did? You said you said don’t be put off by the size of your organization. Jessica and i had said that earlier, right? Small lords jumpin goto give it go to giving tuesday dot or go check it out. Okay, so i i don’t mean to put you on the spot again. You’re awesome. No, alright, that’s amy sample ward, our social media contributors ceo of inten you’ll find her at amy rs ward and jessica schneider. She is at your pal jess. Ladies thank you so, so much. Thank you for happiness. Thanks so much, tony. And thanks for paying for the conversation. Just said i was fun. Yes, agreed indeed. Thank you, jessica. Next week, oracle net sweet. They have lots of free offerings for non-profits you don’t know about this from oracle, that sweet you shall next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com and these are our sponsors. Pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuing dot com regular cpas guiding you beyond the numbers. Wetness. Cps dot com stoploss accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com. Our creative producers, claire miree sam recruits is on the board is the line producer show social media is by seeing shadows in this cool music. By scott steindorff. Do with me next week for non-profit big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out green. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 22, 2017: Robertson v. Princeton

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Doug White: Robertson v. Princeton

Doug White is the author of “Abusing Donor Intent: The Robertson Family’s Epic Lawsuit Against Princeton University.” He returns to tell how trust eroded between donor and university, and a $35 million gift from 1961 ended in a messy lawsuit. He’s got lots of lessons to share to help you avoid the same. (Originally aired May 9, 2014)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Hey, you could catch maria simple on msnbc this weekend. She’s going to be on your business with j j ramberg on sunday at seven thirty a m eastern, so check out our prospect research contributor maria simple on msnbc sunday morning. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with care. Arai assis, if you wormed in with the idea that you missed today’s show robertson v princeton doug white is author of the book abusing donor intent, the robertson family’s epic lawsuit against princeton university. He returns to the show to tell us how trust eroded between donor and university and a thirty five million dollars gift from nineteen, sixty one ended in a messy lawsuit. You’ve got lots of lessons to share to help you avoid the same and that originally aired on may ninth twenty fourteen on tony’s take two five minute pg marketing we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by wagner, cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not. A business you’re non-profit apple owes accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com here is doug white with robertson v princeton first piece. I am very glad to welcome back to the show and back to the studio. Doug wait, author, professor, advisor to non-profits and philanthropists he’s on the faculty in the masters in fund-raising program at columbia university. Abusing donorsearch intent is his fourth book. You’ll find him at doug white dot net. Welcome back, doug. Wait. It’s, good to be back and to see you again. I have to ask the question. That’s on everybody’s mind though. Cerebral ischemia. What is that? That’s? A well, that this week that’s that’s. What? I’ll suffer if i find out that someone had not heard this week’s show a cerebral it’s a form of a stroke ice since kenya’s had a sense that’s what? It was what i wanted to ask you, being an attorney and all. You probably come up with all of these terms. Yeah, well, we make the well back. When i was practicing law now we would make these things. Up there the way were we would defend against people who had made them up as if the slip and fall in aisle seven on the relish that’s that caused it, and an approximate cause of the ischemia twelve years later, that that was there was actually a cause and effect relationship and that’s what we were trying to defeat it’s great to see things haven’t changed and that’s actually kind of a segue way to a lawsuit story. I don’t know, i’m sure that’s true and that’s why i don’t practice law any longer because i was not interested in the relish bill in aisle seven, but this lawsuit that we’re going to talk about is a lot more meaningful than then slip and falls and trips and falls. You you spend your a lot of time thinking about ethics and fund-raising last time you were on, we were talking about your book around ethics, and this is, uh, donorsearch trust and loyalty. How were all these? How are all these related in your in your professorial authorship? Mind? Well, someone might accuse me of having a cerebral something else because of all of the mishmash that goes on. In my head on this stuff. But i won’t. But really, i think that there’s a lot to think about in the nonprofit world that we don’t otherwise think about, we think about fund-raising and we think about boards and all of those things are important, but i’m tryingto get a handle on what society does with its non-profit sector and how the non-profit sector responds back, and so it takes me to these corners that are really weird, and in this particular case, it took me to a story that had something to do with trust and a lot of money and a huge university. And the question is, how could someone accuse princeton of doing something so egregious and that’s? Not an easy question? Answer. In fact, when i went into this story, i didn’t think princeton was really all that guilty of anything, uh, ok, because, uh, as i read through the book, i sensed you trying to be objective. But in the end, i was left with the sense that you felt princeton really had wronged this. The robertson family. You want to tell the end right now? I’m trying to get people to buy the book here in the story. There you go there. Is going to see oil or alert? We only have an hour together. There’s lots of information that people going by the book around because you were just going to school is going to touch the were scratching the surface that’s in a mere hour. The book is very well worth buying. Nine just kind of yes, i know, but now that was the that was okay, we’ll get into the details of that, but i think it’s sort of a tease, you know, that is that was kind of what i was left with, and two thousand six i had finished the book called charity on trial and was interviewed on television station in washington, and somebody brought up the princeton case because i had written about it a little bit, it hadn’t gone anywhere. It was still in the lawsuit stage, and the interviewer asked what i thought of the princeton case, and i thought that princeton had a pretty good case to defend themselves on. I said that at the time, and i felt that for a long time because i like i’m sure many, many people feel like a place like princeton really has its act. Together and is a pretty good place, and i say that knowing that it’s, i still feel that way. But there were issues that i discovered along the way that i felt really made them look bad. Okay? Okay, and we’re going toe t c we’re going to follow your evolution, okay, you’ve you’ve you’ve come, you’ve come around. I know you’re thinking has evolved. Let’s, let’s not tease any longer. This this goes back to ah nineteen. Sixty one gift from charles roberts heimans set up a little bit for you. Charles robertson, co founder of the great atlantic and pacific tea company the mp supermarkets nineteen sixty one gift to princeton university. Well, let me just do a little bit of a nuance on that. Exactly. The wife, marie robertson, who is the heiress of the mp fortune. She funded it, right? She actually tent. Technically, did fundez yes way say that there were donors, but technically, there was one donor, and that was marie robertson. Okay, but charles robertson, her husband was such a large player in the gift you’re gonna you’re gonna hold my feet to the fire on the details. Well, you’re an attorney and i can’t. Well, i was i was that’s the second time. Now you’ve accused me. I’m not an attorney, sabelo you’re recovering attorney. Yeah. I mean, i do fund-raising more than i do. Attorney work. It plays a part, but i didn’t say it disparagingly. I say it with no i d s marriage, but but you should hold me to the fire because you wrote a book and oh, and i’m glossy. Andi, i you know, ignoring details. Okay. Yes, go ahead. Marie robertson was actually the donor. Yeah, technology. But we think of them as donors and that’s. Fine. She was the heiress of the mp fortune and her one tenth share of the stock when it became available to be invaded after the trust was dissolved in nineteen. Fifty seven was about ninety million dollars. She got ninety million dollars one day from the trust. And charles, her husband, her second husband. I was an investment adviser and he new two things. One is not only should this stock portfolio within the family be diversified, he also did not have any faith in the management of the mp at that time, after the original people died off. He didn’t think it was going to go anywhere. And he was actually right on dh. You could predict anything, but in this particular case, he was right. The mp actually filed for bankruptcy just a few years ago. I don’t know what status today, but it did have a lot of difficulty. The stock did go down, so they were right to a diversify. And also the other part of that in terms of wealth management planning was to make a charitable gift to save on huge, huge taxes. The marginal tax rate at that time was ninety one percent. So this brought them to the woodrow wilson school at princeton university. It did. Ah, charles was a graduate of princeton, so let’s get that out and they were both very interested. Or he was really the intellectual driver behind the gift and it’s purpose. He was very interested, but they both were. They were both interested in international relations. This was an era of that. Today we find it hard to even think happened. There was an optimism in the united states, and there was a lot of challenge because of the height of the cold war, too. In nineteen sixty one, kennedy had just been elected. And so there was the sense of america. Khun do it. There was this idea that we were going to go to the moon, which we did. There was this idea that we could almost conquer anything which we didn’t. But there was a sense, this vibrancy and the robertsons felt that it would be really great if we could go to a really great school, like princeton, the woodrow wilson school which existed before the gift, by the way, and have people go into the foreign service of the government to go out and spread american values, not in any political sort of away or ideological sort of way other than democracy, but do it through the idea of foreign service through a peaceful way. And so the idea was to get students who were at the woodrow wilson school graduate program to then go into the foreign service oppcoll the negotiations ensued, of course, a lot of talk about what the donor’s objectives were, and how to achieve those objectives of a sze yu put it, you know, the broad goal of strengthening the foreign service in the united states. And using the doing that through the woodrow wilson school, their phrase was strengthening the united states government pretty clear, it’s clear, but it’s also abroad. The specific phrase that i think we are probably gonna have to talk about a little bit is the phrase particular emphasis, the idea that students would go into the foreign service area or some branch of the government that had dealings with the foreign service, and that the school would put particular emphasis that’s in the document on putting those students in those positions. Okay, we’re gonna take our first break. Onda of course, doug white stays with us. We’re going to keep talking about the the evolution of this, the the gift and the lawsuit and the lessons, of course. That’s, you know, that’s important that we want to leave you with takeaways so that you can avoid something like this may not be epic in your in your case, but could still be very seriously want help you avoid problems like princeton had with his donors. So stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick, ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Duitz welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m sorry, i can’t send live listener love today. Ah, directly live, because we’re pre recording today, but doesn’t you were listening live. I send you my thanks. Thanks for listening. And, of course, podcast pleasantries to those of you listening everywhere else but live very glad you’re with us. The now we have an hour, but we only have an hour. So we have to fast forward a little bit now, too. How things started. Teo devolve from charles and marie the parents to bill robertson, the son of charles and marie. Things started to break down over time in the in the relationship. One of the interesting aspects of this case is they started to break down a lot sooner than princeton had been saying. Charles robertson himself was very upset. Within a few years of the gift with the lack of results at the school, he had done a lot of research on what the school could do. He had talked to important government officials before setting up the foundation. And by the way, this was a foundation to support the program at the woodrow wilson school. Today, it would be known as, ah supporting organization back in nineteen sixty one, they didn’t have that, but that’s what effectively acted as and so he was on the board as well as two other family members. So there were three family members and for people from princeton on the board of this foundation called the robertson foundation that’s important, i think three family members, four people from princeton, absolutely. That was important for a lot of reasons that turned out to be one of the reasons that there was eventually a lawsuit, but it was also important for the irs to give its blessing to the charitable stature of this organization. So charles robertson knew that princeton would have the four votes they would have control. There was no real question in his mind, but he also wanted to have the families input too over the years over the generations. And so there was this balancing act that they were trying to accomplish, and i think they were all going into this in good faith. There’s no, in my view, any question about that? At the point, the gift was made, but there was always some question as to what the school was going to do. In other words, this was going to be a great program for international relations, and it is today. And i want to be clear about that it’s one of the best in the united states or the best in the world. But the gift was made in order to make room for students to go into the foreign service. That was the whole point of the gift. That was the point of the gift. It wasn’t to make the woodrow wilson school great. It was to put people into the foreign service or in the foreign relations positions in the united states government and that’s what wasn’t happening. And only a few years after that, charles robertson started to look at this and say, what’s our progress, and over the years, i don’t know the exact figure right now, but up until twenty or two, i would say perhaps thirteen to fourteen percent of the students actually went into the government, which was an abysmal failure from charles robertson’s perspective, and so he was upset from pretty pretty much the beginning, and i got my hands on documents that proves this. This was not something that bill robertson is inventing he’s able to show me letters that his father wrote angrily. I mean, there was a lot of emotion in these things to show that he was very upset with the progress of the woodrow wilson school bill robinson comes into the picture because he’s young at this point in nineteen seventy two i think he graduated from princeton himself, so he wasn’t really old. He came out of the board after one of the other family members went off and took basically his father’s place on the board on his family portion of the board in nineteen eighty one after his father died. And so bill took over that mantle of keeping a sharp eye on the progress of the woodrow wilson school graduate program, and continue to be unhappy with it. So it did go from charles to bill, but another dynamic here that we don’t often times take into account. What i tried to describe in the book was bill’s intense loyalty to his parents and in this particular case, his father he felt that his father and mother put this gift the hugest gift basically that had ever been given to a university to that time. And he felt that things weren’t being done correctly. And and his mother, too, was very there’s. Ah, something you say in the book that that bill feels very strong that his mother relied on on princeton and this gift up until her death? Yes, on dh. Trusted them. Yes. Yes, this trust was a big deal, and trust is a big deal in all of our lives, and i don’t know that we really analyze it well or feel it about it their way we might, but i feel strongly that both bill excuse me. Both charles and marie were hoping for more from this gift, and they were trusting princeton probably more than they should have been, but that’s another issue point is that by the time bill took over his seat on the board, things were not improving. And so bill kept up that as i say that that i on on the progress, that isn’t what triggered the lawsuit, but that was always ah, thorn in the side of the of the meetings on dove, the progress of the woodrow wilson school, they were not happy on dh there. I don’t know that there was based on what i’ve seen, i can’t say that i would actually say that there would be a point in that forty year history where they were ever happy. Okay, um, i have my favorite character in in the in this epic lawsuit, but i’m not going i know that i want to. Hold that dahna print co-branded an investment committee plays a big role here, and i think that has a lot and has a lot to do with the donor university relationship. Print go. You’re right, it’s the princeton investment company, i think. Oh, company. Yeah, those committee no. Close, close. Not bad. I’m gonna check you on that. Okay. Okay, go ahead. Check me out. Okay. While you’re doing that, i didn’t bring the book with me that i never bring the book because i don’t want to be, you know, page seventy four. You said all right, i’ll have to check later. This is the problem. Open book tests in high school. That’s why they don’t want to go ahead. All right. So the idea of going into a broader strategy for investing was anathema to bill, as it would have been to charles. In fact, part of the original document talked about how investments had to be put together. The idea was that print cho had been established a few years earlier, and the princeton and dahna, which had gone into several billions of dollars. At that point, i was going to be managed in a more modern way from them or traditional life and bill was way in the early eighties. Now we are in the early eighties. Yeah, we are actually. And charles did not want to get too risky with the investments, and neither did bill and bill, by the way, grew into a financial investment advisory capacity in his own right outside of this. And so he had some chops when it came to investigate. He also didn’t want to go to what became a pretty big norm at university investment houses. And that is to say, by the nineties late nineties, especially the idea of alternative investments was very, very popular, and the thieves were hedge fund these head from investing foreign in foreign companies. Yes. Now every every i have to say that what i was in this business in the investment business for charities, i understood there were lots and lots of asset classes and that’s fine way should always be on the cutting edge of understanding how finances and investments work. But they’re became a time when everything was going up and this happened throughout the two thousands to ana and what became really popular was what we call alternatives. Or the alternative investments like you say hedge funds and other things, and bill was really against that idea and print cho was going forward. He went down to print go because they were in another office and said, show me around and tell me what’s going on. And he was just not impressed with the idea of alternative investments and, quite frankly, again oppressions being what it is in twenty late that’s exactly what brought down these university endowments. In fact, princeton was so reliant upon investments they had about fifty percent or a little bit more in their endowment devoted to alternatives which, when i was in the world of investments back in the early nineties, we would think of two or three percent of a large and and so it got turned upside down, and that the tension was whether print coe should be investing the foundation assets along with the university endowment or and in the eyes of the roberts bill robertson that it should not print go should not have control over the investment exactly and that’s what triggered the lawsuit? It was that issue if you’re looking at one moment where the decision was made to actually file a lawsuit. It was one bill robertson finally got fed up after the after the board for two three voted to go to print cope, put the assets in the print going by the way that thirty five million dollars had grown to about eight hundred million dollars. That thirty five million dollars had grown to about eight hundred billion dollars by two thousand. Wow. Okay, that’s. Excellent perspective. All right, now we’re in the lawsuit. What else did the the lawsuit alleged besides the investment? Misappropriation? Well, not miss probation, but they were a couple of expenses and things like that. That right lawsuit alleged what happens? And you probably know this much better than i. But i learned this a little bit more during the course of writing the book. There was a complaint filed. We feel something is wrong, x and then there’s a response. And then in the process of looking at the issue’s, the plaintiffs have an opportunity to go through what’s called discovery. And in the process of that discovery, they discovered a lot of things that they didn’t know beforehand. So the original complaint had to do a lot. With print go, and it also had a lot to do with why students weren’t going into the foreign service. But during discovery, the plaintiff’s found that a lot of the money wasn’t being spent well, either. For example, people excuse me. Other departments at princeton were getting money from the foundation, and those departments weren’t really helping with the woodrow wilson school. The school princeton defends that and says, i’ll just use the phrase they use academic freedom. They say that academic freedom allowed them to make all of these decisions and bill’s perspective, as well as as well as the attorneys. Of course, for the family was that academic freedom, while it’s a cherished concept and we really want to make sure that we never really violated it still has its limits. You can’t, for example, well, maybe you can we don’t know this never was adjudicated by judge or jury so it’s we’ll never really know. But there was this guy this comment during the depositions, where the attorney for for the robertsons asked one of the president’s what what kind of expenditure would be allowed? And the person said, well, almost anything and the attorney said well, how about the hiring a basketball coach? Would that be allowed? And he said yes, oh, my yes, oh, my that’s a university president. That was the university. Yes saying this i forget whether it was the president or dean, i think it was the president and he said yes, because if we need to hire someone at the woodrow wilson school who likes basketball or whose husband or wife, teacher, our coaches, basketball or some connection and that brings that person to the woodrow wilson school, then we will spend that money on the basketball coach’s salary. Well, you can imagine how the robertsons would react to that. Yeah, and understanding that there is an idea, a fundamental, cherished ideal of academic freedom, we still are violating something very fundamental when that answer comes to the fore. Um, now listeners know that we have jargon jail on twenty martignetti non-profit radio, but i didn’t want to put you over there very simple. You know, the complaint that’s just i’m going to get you out of jargon job because i’m glad that you’re back for a third time on the show, so an attorney is going to get me. Out of the u s attorney’s doing all the time. We’re not all they are not. I’m not practicing law. I am not practicing law. There is that explicit. If i made that clear, those who do practice law often are getting people out of prison. It’s one of the noble or things that we do is restore someone’s freed that they do. They do pronoun trouble eyes restoring freedom to those erroneously held incarcerated. So yeah, the complaint is just that’s the way you you have a complaint. So that’s, how you start a lawsuit and discovery is exchange of all kinds of documents, and in this case it was emails and letters. Metoo certainly notes of notes of conversations you wanted. There was a lot. There was a lot in there that, as you said, the robertsons discovered that they hadn’t known about what was going on with the money in this discovery process of thousands of pages, you know, thousands of pages. Not all of them were stingingly terrible. Now, of course, a lot of it’s very mundane. Very, very monday, and you just have to sift through it because you never know when that nugget is. Going to pop out. But, yes, they found that this money was being spent all over the place at princeton and princeton will say, look, a woodrow wilson school is a great place. Okay, well, there’s, no question about that nobody’s arguing that but what we’re talking about is the intention of the donor and the document that was signed in nineteen sixty one that princeton agreed to, and so that the woodrow wilson school is a great place is true. But your relevant to this this question, the other thing was academic freedom. We can spend money pretty much however we want to. And the robertsons wanted to pull back on that. The another big issue in this was the how the robertsons legal fees are being paid. And that was being paid through the banbury fund. Another robertson family foundation let’s touch on that just lights. Just a little. Okay, princeton didn’t want that to happen, and the robertson said that they could do it. They got opinion letters from their attorneys and also had some precedents from the irs, both in private letter rulings and revenue rulings. So they were, i think, firm ground, but princeton still fights that battle today. They still say that it was improper for the banbury fund, too. Pay the robertson legal expenses. But from what i could say they were they were in a good place to do that. The robertsons work. Okay, um, starting to hint at some of our lessons for later on there was issue in the complaint also or in the subsequent complaint after the discovery around financial transparency. Yes. And disclosures that had not been made to the yeah, the robertsons family. Towboat robertson. So not only do we have these money, these dollars being spent their being spent without the family’s knowledge one was a a building that was being constructed almost entirely from the robertson. That was wallace all while, asshole. Yes. And if you ask bill robertson what the big reasons he went to court work, wallace hall was one of the three and a large part of that was they were not told this was taking place. So in other words, they took the position that not only could they use this money outside of direct connection to the woodrow wilson school, they didn’t have to tell the family about it. Forty three is this warner hall? I’m sorry. While us all was not part of the woodrow wilson school, not at all. It was not so to bill robertson. This is as far afield is hiring the basketball coach and paying for it exactly. He was very upset about that, and i don’t blame him. I mean, there were a lot of places where princeton didn’t have toe go to a lawsuit that could have done so much, and we’ll get to those in lessons later on. But when wallace hall came about, bill was livid. Yeah, well, s o you know, the institution does bad things, and then it covers it up and that’s the that’s, the financial transparency that was that was lacking, and it became part of the complaint. I’ve got more, of course, with doug white and the robertson lawsuit coming up first. Pursuant, their newest resource, the intelligent fund-raising health check downloaded for nine key performance indicators to measures your organization’s health. Ten universal characteristics of orders that are thriving in fund-raising eleven pipers piping, twelve drummers drumming i confess i had looked those up. I thought it was eleven lords leaping and i think it should be because you want to hit you wanna punch the the thehe liberations eleven lorts leaping i think i think the blue a chance that well, the who wrote the twelve days of christmas i think you blew a chance anyway, it’s not eleven lords leaping things. Only seven of those, but go to aa teo tony dot slash pursuant that’s where you’ll find the intelligent fund-raising health check acquisition campaigns pursuing had the webinar to help you acquire new donors. Now watch the archive, it’s. Never too late. Well, it’s going to be too late soon, actually, but it’s not too late. Now again, tony dahna slash pursuing the webinar is going to drop off that custom page that pursue it has for non-profit radio listeners. So get there. Check out that web in r and you can download the intelligent fund-raising health check also. Tony dot m a slash pursuant you gotta use a capital p wagner, cps. 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Get the non-profit software, the accounting software that is built for non-profits from the ground up, and that is from apple owes appaloosa counting it’s designed for non-profits from the beginning, i think you got that you got the message non-profit wizard dot com that’ll take you to ap clothes and you’ll discover apple of accounting for non-profits now time for tony’s take two my latest video is five minute marketing for planned e-giving i stripped out the most important moments from this show several weeks ago where i did the whole first segment of the show on planned giving marketing, but five minute plan giving marketing quick, quick bursts for your events for your newsletter, whether it’s printer, digital for some printing when you’re printing emails and things, sorry when you’re printing envelopes, envelopes lots of quick ideas in there, distilled almost thirty minutes down to the essential three very tough task. But check out the video it sze three minutes of five minute marketing for plan giving it. Of course, that is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two. And here is more of doug white talking about the robertson v princeton epic lawsuit. The great you’re still here, right? I am cool. So we have now this lawsuit and the discovery and the and the amended complaint based on what the robertsons learned through discovery. And this lawsuit is on for six between six and seven years. I imagine the relationship was pretty damn difficulty between the foundation board and the princeton university. Ah, the administration and the people who are on the board from princeton university. They have to get together for board meetings. Excuse me. Yes, they do. And the bill, sister catherine ernst, described it as having a boardmember and then attorney, then the boardmember and then attorney all around the table, and not only the family, but also the princeton side of the board. It was very tense. They describe how in the early days when charlie was alive, that the relations were very good. There would be lunch at the president’s house. There would be a lot of camaraderie, even the problems were developing. The relations were pretty good by the time the lawsuit comes around. Nobody’s talking. Anybody aboard? Yeah, board meetings. And it became the antithesis of what? And again, i teach board governance at columbia. And we talk about the need for ah, transparency and fluidity. And, you know, trust and none of that was was was there during this lawsuit so it’s very, very tense there, even they were actually having meals in separate rooms. That’s, right? They family really saying we’re family boardmember zand the princeton university board members would would have lunches in separate rooms. That’s, right? They did need an adult to come in and take things. It was they ended up doing there for the settlement, but at this point, it was just i can’t imagine how tense that had to be. Yeah, and over six, seven years, yes, right, yes. Okay, um, let’s. Bring us to the settlement. Twenty eight a lot of things are going on. First of all, it’s true that the robertsons we’re running out of money, even though the banbury fund was funding the lawsuits, the love fees added up to about forty five million dollars on each side, which is an incredible about the money and even a place like the banbury fund was starting to feel that now, if i’ve been a part of those teams, i’d probably still be practicing law. Yes, i would have been. The buildings are so easy when you’re in a lawsuit, but i just never got that far. I stuck it out for two years, and i never made it to this level. Well, the judge retired the one that everybody bonded. Teo in light and respected. He retired. The judge’s clerk left to go work for the princeton lawyers, which was interesting. The new judge could only give it one day a week. And that was maria psychic. And she i was only going to be able to do it for one day a week, which stretched the lawsuit out even further. Give a dog a car there. And so there was a lot of delay and and i get this even though we kind of make fun of this from time to time, that even though there was a delay and there was a slow down, the work still had to be continued. The law fees were continuing. And so the question of being able to pay for this was a very acute one for the robertson family. On the other side of the coin, the princeton investments were going south because the crisis was taking place. And they were, as i say, and alternatives. And so they were having a liquidity problem. I think they probably only source of liquidity. Most fat during that time was probably tuition paying parents was just a very tight time. They might not acknowledge it that way, but that’s pretty much how i see it. And so they were both ready. I think, to talk settlement. They had tried beforehand they didn’t get anywhere. Bill originally wanted to take the entire endowment away and put it somewhere else. And that would have been a really riel problem for the princeton. Because if for no other reason, it would have been a real blow psychologically to this story. I really university. I get what they wanted to do there, so they were going back and forth. And the question was, should we force the university to repay all these dollars that they had misspent, which could have been an excess of about two hundred billion dollars back into the foundation? Or can we just take the foundation away? Or can we split away from the foundation and they wanted independence? They wanted to say, okay, we want money to go do our own thing, that is, to say what my parents were doing, who his parents were doing, and the and princeton really didn’t want that, so they said, okay, what we’ll do is we’ll consider chopping off some of this money and giving it to you if you let us keep the rest of it, you guys go away and that’s, basically, what happened? They did bring in an adult david gal fan from milbank tweed who came in and his whole approach was saying not to say who had the better argument legally, his approach was, how can we get out of this mess? And i think he was a good voice. He was not part. Of the litigation. And he was a good voice to be brought in at this time, and he actually did the settlement. He was very good. And the settlement wass that princeton would reimburse the banbury fund the forty five million dollars for the legal fees. And in addition to that, over a period of time, the university would pay fifty million dollars to a new foundation. It’s called the robinson foundation for government. And it now exists it’s, a family foundation, and has its own work and does what it’s predecessor was supposed to do that is to put students into the federal government. But it is completely independent. Totally invested in university. Yeah. And then the rest of the money which probably added up to around six hundred fifty or seven hundred million dollars. Because during that period of time, during the crisis, the dahna came dahna shade. But let’s say six hundred million then was left. I don’t know exactly. The robinson foundation, by the way, was dissolved the original one. And so the money that was in it and was left for princeton went into its general endowment specifically for the woodrow wilson school and today the robertson family does not have anything to say about how that money is being used. There is a complete divorce. Okay, i think that can bring us teo somethings that charity’s can can take away. Um, i still haven’t revealed my favorite character, but we haven’t talked about that person. Um, agreements, should we start with a gram? And this was all went back to the to the phrase a particular emphasis. So do we, which was in which was in the original document creating the foundation? Yes, let’s. Talk about what? What level of scrupulous nous we need to have around agreements with donors. Let me preface it by saying the this this conversation, this part of it right now has a lot to do with understanding that this lawsuit was a story and it’s true and it’s big but it’s really? A reason for being important is that almost any charity and almost any donor i can get into this bind. So it’s not just ah, large family or a large university. Any endowed gift or any restricted gift really, really needs to be put together with what i would call the lessons you want. Bring us. We could easily be talking about a ten or fifteen thousand dollars gift easily, easily and that’s really one of the big messages here? This isn’t just about princeton has got a lot of interest, but it’s not just about princeton and so donors and charities both have to be aware of this when we say when we use phrases like in with particular emphasis, it has a meaning, but it doesn’t have an absolute meaning doesn’t mean that one hundred percent of the students are goingto go to the federal government, but it also doesn’t mean zero percent or ten percent. So we have to have an understanding you and i about what particular emphasis means if it were seventy or eighty or ninety percent, i don’t think charles robertson would have had any problem. I think even if he were sixty or sixty five percent, part of the problem was not just the results, and this is another thing they discovered was that princeton never really cared whether the students we’re going to go and the evidence of that was they never asked on the application whether they were interested in going into the federal government, so there. Was that part of the equation? So and i think you can relate to this as an attorney, we sometimes think of the laws being black and white and here’s what’s, right, and here’s what’s wrong. But a lot of phrases we use are are vague on purpose. They they’re meant to be because we can’t assign a value our specific numeric value to the word emphasis we just can’t do that. And yet, it’s an important idea in an agreement. So if a person is making an agreement today, one lesson is too if you’re going to use that kind of a phrase, uh, define it a little bit more than they did. One one word that gets us into trouble, i think, and fund-raising agreements and that is the word in perpetuity of the phrase in perpetuity because in perpetuity has has a meaning if you look it up. It’s very clear what that meaning is it means forever and forever has a meaning. And so, by definition, we cannot put into legitimately into an agreement, in my view, the word perpetuity because we cannot know what’s going to happen forever. So we have to be more careful. And crafting the language that we’re using. I want i made a gift to my own high school. This is a in the nineteen eighties of deferred gift. Where’d you go to high school exeter, phillips, exeter. And it was back in the day when pulled income funds were popular. You probably remember that yourself. None of our listeners will. There were there was a thing it’s, an antique drug in jail. Again. Well its way. But we have to define it’s now an out of date. Really? Life, income gift. A method through which donors got variable income for for their lives. And the variability became a big issue when interest rates were declining and the varying the variations were all down. And these have pretty much falling out of favor among among non-profits so that’s enough for me. So then come front. When i was doing the agreement, they said and i wanted to honor my english teacher and they said, this is back in like, nineteen, eighty four they said, you know, this going to sound weird, but we might not teach english forever, right? I thought, how is that possible? But it may not be possible. But it was also not conceivable that we wouldn’t be riding horses forever. So had an escape plus, saying that if this ever did happen that they be able to use it to a purpose is closest possible. Something, something that deals with ian practicability of yes, continuing the gift. Yes, and i’m tryingto bring this and tryingto respond to your question about how donors can and charities. Khun b take steps to avoid what happened to princeton so that we don’t just use words capriciously. We just have about a minute before a break, and there’s certainly board implications here, too. I mean, the princeton board reviewed the documentation and probably was involved in in a good degree in the negotiations board oversight of gift. Yes, this is a good example of that. Now, i don’t really fault the board at princeton to too much because it was nineteen, sixty one and not twenty fourteen, and so we’ve learned a lot in the last half century about board oversight and so forth, but that said thie gift was basically shoved through. It was a last minute quick kind of a thing had nothing to do with there at the time current capital campaign and the president really did not have the fullest discussion with the board about this gift, and they should have so board oversight of that process is really critical. We could go out front brake, and when we come back, doug and i will keep talking about the lessons from this epic lawsuit robertson v princeton like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, i’m bill mcginley, president, ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. As we make our agreements more specific and and defined terms as you’re suggesting, we can actually get into trouble because the specificity now binds us two teo, try to predict what’s going to happen and try to predict what issues are goingto a result. So there’s a there’s a balance between specificity and flexibility there is, and when i was saying earlier that we need to be more specific, er not use words capriciously, you’re right, i had that in mind to that there is a balance and it’s there’s always going to be tension. And so the question is, how do we avoid this kind of a thing going into the future? And one of the things that you can avoid has nothing to do with the agreement. It has everything to do with relations. If princeton had done so much differently, this wouldn’t have gone to where it went. But it was the lack of trust, the erosion of trust over the decades that really set the stage for this. Then you can go to the agreement say you’re not doing this well if you have the trust going on at the same time, you don’t need to go to the agreement, say you are or are not doing something but that’s it so so that’s probably the best lesson that anybody can learn from a charitable perspective anyway, to stay in touch with the airs at the donors and the heirs forever. This is an obligation, and if you don’t feel you can do that, you don’t feel you, khun obligate your success is that the organization to do that, then don’t promise to do that that’s part of the deal here in plan giving, when i was in plan giving, doing these kinds of things and talking to you too plant giving directors, i would say you’re you’re actually making an agreement here that will go on for well past the time you’re here, and probably perhaps well past the time you’re even alive. So many generations of successors after you are going to have to do what you’re agreeing to do today, keep that idea in mind when you make these agreements and this particular agreement, nothing was going to erode the idea of a federal government or the need for foreign relations, but still there could have been mohr a trust and more. Specificity, i think, in the agreement, although i don’t think the specificity was the issue here, i think the idea was pretty clear, i mean, with particular emphasis might be a vague term, but it does have enough of a meaning and enough of an understanding by people who consider the table to know that thirteen percent just doesn’t cut it. You know, you know, the good communications and keeping in touch, and in this case, there were there were different presidents who could at any time i thought when, when there was a new president, he or she could have said, you know, we’ve made some mistakes in the past, obviously i was not in charge then, but here’s what here’s, what happened and here’s what we’re gonna do, teo, and make sure that this doesn’t happen again, that humility is so crucial, especially the non-profit i can understand boisterousness from ah for-profit especially if it’s a big one, but at a non-profit there’s this extra special place that non-profits haven’t talked about that in the other book, the non-profit challenge where that humility plays a large large role or should now, just so you’ll know, since this book was published other organizations, air writing reviews and trying to talk with both me and princeton. Princeton refuses to talk about it. They give the same press release that they give that they gave after the settlement they do not want to acknowledge, but something went wrong. How they could possibly agnostic. Now i could understand them having a defense, but to say they were totally in the right, it blows my mind, you know that? Yeah, that sounds like lawyers giving advice and and driving the decisionmaking vs people who are more interested in the long term relationships with donors and alumni. That was paul volcker’s perspective. I interviewed him because he’s, a princeton alum, and he also had a perspective on this situation at the woodrow wilson school. And he was complaining about the woodrow wilson school separately and before the lawsuit ever came, so he was doing it entirely independently. And when the lawsuit came around, he told me, i think the lawyers are driving this. They’re saying, princessa can admit to nothing but i’m thinking, okay, i get that it’s not good, but i get that. But here we are, what, five years? Seven years. Six years after the settlement and they’re still saying we didn’t do anything wrong. Is bill robertson willing to talk now? Yeah, bills bill is going to be speaking with me up in boston next week. Oh, i could’ve had bill roberts instead of you. You could have a visible the name in the lawsuit instead of the guy who just follows it later on, you’re in the gundam, maybe it’s somehow it’s done now. Alright, alright, to settle for this second best. Okay? And so, as we are crafting these agreements again, the board’s role in reviewing agreements whether whether it is appropriate to buying this organization forever in perpetuity, or should we stop short of that and the board is really the last step two that can raise a red flag for the organization it is, unless you can come to some agreement as to what in perpetuity means as they did at the a museum of ma metropolitan museum of art a few years ago. And philippe de montebello said, we think in perpetuity really means seventy five years on the donor agreed to that. Well, that’s ok, that’s coming is a definition. There was a definition, right? So in perfect, what he didn’t really mean what it means in addiction, right? Fright, but yes, you’re right, i think the board has to be very cautious of that. My favorite character, we didn’t talk about her, but you dedicated the book to jessie lee washington. I did, i don’t want to, i’ll let you explain, but we just have it. We just have a couple minutes explain the crucial role just a jesse was an employee at that. The university was asked to look into endowments at the divinity school and found some irregularities and did a report, and it was put away for a while. Then she left on dh. Then the lawsuit became really big, and she said, you know this? What i was working on in the divinity school is very similar to what the lawsuit is alleging. So she came out and went to the lawyers for princeton with seth lap ido and said, i have a story to tell you, and when she got on the phone, seth said, we’ve been waiting for you to come. He didn’t know who it was going to be, but he figured there would be some other person in princeton who would be familiar with this activity that princeton was doing in the endowment accounting and she really represent she she i think, was very courageous. She put her reputation on the line and said, i am willing to go on the record to say what’s wrong here, and he dedicated the book to her, and that was so touching. And i think, well, she’s, my favorite because i believe that most people want to do the right thing and she’s a perfect example of stepping forward being courageous the way you describe most people in non-profits and donors want to do the right thing. I think you’re right. I know you’re right. Doug, wait, author, professor, advisor non-profits and philanthropists. He hangs out at columbia university teaching at the masters and fund-raising program. You will find him at doug white dot net. The book is abusing donorsearch intent. The robertson family’s epic lawsuit against princeton university it’s a very, very good story and very well told doug white. Thanks so much. Thank you, it’s. Good to see you again. Pleasure. Did you think that i was going to wrap up this show without live? Listen, love. Podcast pleasantries an affiliate affections lima, lima, lima podcast pod papa papa an alfa alfa. Certainly not certainly not can’t happen. So the liveliest naralo let’s go abroad. I like the start abroad today in ah poon a india i believe i’m not sure i’m pronouncing it right, but india is definitely with us. Germany. Guten tag. We can’t see your city, russia i’m sorry, we can’t see your city. I don’t know if i should be surprised there, but we cannot, um anybody else abroad? Yes, none, none name none in china ni hao and nobody from nobody from south korea. You know what? I bet south korea’s there, but we just can’t see them, so i’m certainly going to send on your haserot comes a ham nida to our listeners in south korea, there always there and, uh, come in a little closer to home. Coming. Georgia, georgia, i cracked again. Elizabeth, new jersey! I know elizabeth well, i don’t know this, but this is my grandmother used to work at a plant. It was a pharmaceutical plant in elizabeth going back-up a number of years. Elizabeth, new jersey live. Listen love to you also live love goes out to tampa, florida. Woodbridge, new jersey, south orange, new jersey. Why would get jersey checking in lots of places, mostly north. Let’s. Cool, though. And bayside, new york and queens live. Listen love to each of you. Thank you so much for being with us and we’ve got to send the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand listening in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to you. The affiliate affections are am and fm listeners always goes out my affections to you as well. Next week, it’s all giving tuesday, including amy sample ward. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com here’s our sponsors pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuing dot com regular sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com at plus accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dotcom are creative producers. Claire meyerhoff family woodson’s the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this music is by scott stein do with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out on the green. Thanks. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.