Tag Archives: failure

Nonprofit Radio for March 21, 2022: Improve Your Relationship With Failure

Ashley Good: Improve Your Relationship With Failure

We all know we ought to learn from failure. But most of us don’t have that healthy relationship with failure. Ashley Good reveals the breakdowns to help us improve the relationship. Her consultancy is Fail Forward.


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mm hmm. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the

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the other

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95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of a tick a phobia. If you shared with me the fear that you’d miss this week’s show improve your relationship with failure. We all know we ought to learn from failure, but most of us don’t have that healthy relationship with failure. Ashley Good reveals the breakdowns

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[00:01:13.24] spk_0:
help us improve the relationship. Her consultancy is fail forward And Tony’s take two easy, comfortable donor relationships, responses by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Ashley Good. She is founder of fail

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the world’s first failure consultancy supporting people and organizations to acknowledge,

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and evolve from

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A winner of the Harvard business review Mckinsey Innovating innovation

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fail forward helps businesses, governments and nonprofits harness their failures

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learn innovate and build resilience. The company is at fail forward dot org and at fail forward. Ashley Good. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:53.74] spk_1:
Thanks so much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:57.74] spk_0:
My pleasure to have you. Thank you joining us from toronto I

[00:02:00.83] spk_1:
AM Yes. And you may be able to hear a little baby crying in the background. That’s my 10 month old who just woke up from his nap.

[00:02:18.44] spk_0:
There he is. Absolutely we are. We are. We’re not only family family friendly. The and anybody could be family friendly. We’re family embracing If you’re if you’re a 10 month old has to come in with

[00:02:20.50] spk_1:
you. I

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understand. We’ll,

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we’ll still be able to hear you over. No, no problem at

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[00:02:27.54] spk_0:
Uh, so welcome. Welcome from one of our northern neighbors. Glad to have you.

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Thanks for that.

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bio starts with in many ways, our relationship with failure either unlocks our full potential

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keeps us from ever realizing it.

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[00:02:50.27] spk_0:
I think that’s a great place for us to begin. Please explain that.

[00:03:50.84] spk_1:
Yeah, So I guess where that line came from is how our relationship with failure often is one that is rooted in fear. Um, at least that’s what I hear the most from my clients is they’re calling me because they feel like their fear of getting it wrong is the reason that they’re not taking the risks. They might otherwise desire to um, the fear of what might happen. Their fear of letting other people down. The fear of being seen as a failure by the folks around them, hold us back from maybe from doing a lot of the things that um, that might help us learn and grow and on the flip side of that, you know, our healthy relationship with failure is one where we feel we feel safe stepping out of our comfort zone, recognizing that that, that, that often deep discomfort we experience amidst our failure is um, really the thing that transforms us into the people that we, that we might become, you know, reaching that full potential as it were, is only possible for willing to push ourselves to the edge of what we’re capable of

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outside our comfort zone.

[00:04:08.04] spk_1:
Exactly. I

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do do organizations come to you when they’re in crisis

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[00:05:02.54] spk_1:
yeah, I get a little bit of both. I see too equally important sides of my work. There’s the learning component. So you’re, you’ve had a failure and often folks are not treating each other very well or they’re not communicating very well and they needed a little bit of support, um maximizing what they can learn from that event. So there’s the learning aspect of the work that I do, trying to maximize what we, what we take away and how do we move forward from our failures more wisely? Um, and then there’s what I might call like a risk taking or the innovation side, How do we create the conditions under which we can, we feel safe taking those risks where we’re confident enough to do the things that we might not know how to do yet. Um in order to push ourselves to keep up with the pace of change or are competitive pressures or whatever they might be.

[00:05:16.94] spk_0:
Mhm. I feel like the, the combination of your work and, and you’re thinking, uh, you should be, your name should be Ashley Exemplary. Okay,

[00:05:17.64] spk_1:
I don’t know about that

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because you, you want people, you want us to to to reach our full potential,

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not just be good, you want it to be, you want us to be exemplary, That’s the way I’m that’s what I’m hearing in the first few minutes. Anyway, I’m sorry for changing your name. I don’t mean to be so brash about, you know,

[00:06:11.34] spk_1:
well, and why I why I hesitate with it is because I mean, when I first started this company, I really thought I had something like I figured something out that I’m going to help people with, right? Like I’m gonna help people have a healthier relationship with failure and the more that I do this work, it’s been gosh, 11, 12 years now, the more I realized that I actually started it, because my own relationship with failure is so troubled and I probably need this more than anyone else. So um in asking people to, I kind of reached their full potential. It came from a place of actually wanting to build a healthier relationship with failure for myself as well. And um you know, tell myself it’s okay to be wrong, sometimes it’s okay to not be perfect all the time.

[00:06:17.84] spk_0:
Well, alright, I’m still gonna stick with Ashley Exemplary, but I’m sure we don’t have to go down that path.

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Tell a little

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about your your personal experience with failure. You you are public about that, you’re one of the things that you sent me to read in advance says, you know, you uh many of us including myself, you know, don’t have the right the right healthy relationship with failure, which we’ll be getting that we’ll talk about. But what’s a little bit of your own, your own background that I guess that led you to the you’re saying lead you to the work.

[00:10:35.74] spk_1:
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I could I could share that story in so many ways. Um I was inspired to work on this topic when I was working for Engineers without Borders, um working in international Development, working on an agricultural food chain project many years ago and saw lots of failures. I was working with incredible colleagues um who you know, were hand selected by the funding agency because they were exceptional. Um and yet when the when the donor came in to kind of ask about what was going right and wrong, um my exceptional colleagues, you know, didn’t didn’t necessarily share the whole truth. It didn’t lie, but but didn’t talk about the real fundamental challenges that that they were, that they were sharing. And I remember asking them afterwards, you know, why why didn’t you tell that guy what we’ve been talking about? Like he can actually change it for future projects and and it’s an oversimplification, but it was essentially like, you know, oh actually you’re so naive, like there’s no way we could do that. You know, we like, we like our jobs were great at our jobs because we can work around these things. Um, and telling that we all know, telling the donor isn’t necessarily the most advisable lot telling the donut the project was designed, it was designed incorrectly is not the most advisable thing for job longevity, shall we say. And, and I was really struck by that because it, of course they were right. Um, but it was my idealistic nature kind of held held tight and it frustrated me to no end that we can’t have those more honest conversations. Um, A a a longtime mentor, tim Brodhead described it as the dance of deceptions where um, nonprofits pretend to have the answer and the owners pretend to believe them and we just keep dancing in this dance of deception. Um, so that was really what sparked my passion for changing it. But I’d say on a, on a personal note as well, I, um, I had, I was at a very low point coming back from that experience. Um, and, and I, you know, I don’t need to describe for your listeners where we’ve all had ups and downs, especially over the last couple of years, but just in a, in a real, real pit. Um, and was, was walking, I pulled myself together was walking down the street and and realized that on the outside, you know, that the strangers that were passing me by, they’d never know how, how broken I felt inside. Um, and then, and I just had this aha moment where I realized that just like me, they, They could be suffering and I’d never know or they could be going through what I was going through or worse, 10 times worse. And I never know. And I had this moment of I’m just, I don’t, I don’t even know how to describe it, uh, clarity and I, and I, and love for these strangers. I was, I was passing on the street thinking that they could and probably would feel the suffering that, that I was in as well at some point. Um, and I, and I think that moment that made me like us a little wiser, a little more human, a little more empathetic. And, and I really held on to that belief in that moment because I think it helps me remember that those moments of suffering are what transform us and allow us to be more human. And that, that’s that those, that the hardest moments that were in, um, make us more

[00:10:51.24] spk_0:
human. That’s very at this poignant. Thank you for sharing. And you know, the, the empathy it makes me think of empathy for, for the,

[00:10:52.15] spk_1:
uh, the folks

[00:12:25.04] spk_0:
that your engineer colleagues were hiding the truth from. Uh, empathy for donors that we may conceal the truth from. Or I’ll just come right out and call it lie to about our, about our outcomes. But so empathy for those folks and, and how, how much of a disservice it is and how wrong it is to treat them that way, whether it’s a, I don’t know, it was a foundation or a government entity, whoever your engineering colleagues were talking to, you know, with billions of dollars of resources potentially. Or, you know, even if that wasn’t the case, but that could, that, that type of funder could be on one end of the spectrum, or is it a $50 donor who contributed to a larger program that I didn’t yield the outcomes that, that, that we had, we had hoped for maybe in, in, in, in any, in any kind of senate. Oh, it’s healthcare or feeding or whatever. Um, you know, the disservice we do, um, when we’re, when we’re not upfront and you know that I think it’s informed by all the talk about transparency and authenticity and honesty over the past. You know, that I guess that’s probably been 5, 7 years or so we’re supposed to be donor centric. Well, it started with donor centrism and then honesty and transparency and um, you know, we want to, we want to live the things that that were aspiring to.

[00:13:30.34] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think we get into these patterns of interacting with each other where we feel we have to show up in a certain way. Um, and I I see, you know, we think that sharing our failures will show weakness. It will show, you know, it’ll show our incompetence, it will show that we don’t, we don’t really, you know, have it all together, we’re figuring it out as we go along. Um, and I fundamentally believe that when we share our failure as well as in we take ownership of them. We talk about what we learn, we talk about, you know, how we’re incorporating that going forward. It shows incredible strength and courage. Um, and I, the example I love to use because it’s so universal is um, is Babe Ruth, I’m famous baseball player who is famous for hitting somewhere in so many home runs, but he also held the record for the number of strikeouts for like over a decade, you know, and when he was asked about that, he said, um, well, every strike leads me closer to the next home

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[00:14:10.24] spk_1:
And I think, I mean, we could all, we could all be a little bit more like Babe, as in, you know, he’s not denying that he got those strikes, like, yeah, I struck out, you know, I made the wrong call, maybe I lost us the game, I swung at the wrong pitch. Um, but I’m going to make sure that that gets me, that experience gets me or us the team closer to the next home run and here’s how and that can show incredible strength and courage if we can share our failures in that way. Um, and yeah, and like you said, demonstrate that authenticity and perhaps that it feels incredibly vulnerable, you know, even when we have that story of what the next home run is, it still feels terrifying to share those stories, but um but it can in that sense that you’re still doing it. It shows incredible strength to those listening

[00:14:32.74] spk_0:
I’ve said many times and many guests have said to uh vulnerability is a sign of strength,

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not weakness, it’s a sign of confidence, not not weakness, vulnerability, humility.

[00:14:43.04] spk_1:
Yeah, one of those things that’s so easy to say, and then when you’re in the moment, almost impossible to

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do, alright, uh let’s talk about the ideal relationship with with failure, we’re getting into some of your more than nuts and bolts. Uh you have, you have a pretty straightforward cycle and then and then we’ll talk about why why we go astray?

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go astray from the ideal. That’s that’s your practice, the filling the void between the ideal and the and the reality.

[00:16:21.14] spk_1:
Absolutely. So the the ideal is what I refer to as intelligent failure or a healthy relationship with failure. How do we feel? Well, basically um starts with acknowledging that failure is inevitable, just uh you know, expecting it from that perspective so that we can detect it early ideally. Um and then we want, when we detect it, we want to analyze it effectively to maximize our learning after that we want to apply that learning, we want to let that lessons learned, report collect dust on a shelf, how do we apply that to actually change our behaviors. Um, do something new or try again whatever it is. Um, and then how do we let that whole experience uh, inspire us to take, continue to take risks and bold action knowing that even the things that we try that don’t work out, we are able to recognize them, learn from them and apply that learning and move forward more wisely. Um, so that opens up more room to take risks and innovate, which of course leads to more failure, but hopefully different failures the next time around the loop and you can check out. Um, so if you google intelligent failure, you’ll probably see the loop come up on google, You can see the visual there.

[00:17:53.04] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications the problem because of their local missions, US community foundations are largely ignored by national media. So when the media covers philanthropy and public policy, community foundations are often left out the turn to approach media relations, building relationships. You’ve heard me talk about that before with national journalists and getting local community foundations op EDS and interviews. Also owned media, creating a website and social media presence to showcase the work of community foundations and capacity building ongoing resources and training for communications teams at local community foundations. So the community foundations were not getting attention. Turn to turn that around. You don’t have to be a community foundation to have turned to turn around your absence in the media, turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o This applies in all kinds of realms. I mean, I’ve seen it applied to software development. I mean, it certainly applies to, uh, nonprofit community.

[00:17:59.33] spk_1:

[00:18:00.16] spk_0:
just, it’s sort of universally applied, isn’t it?

[00:20:07.04] spk_1:
I mean, I think so. I think failure is a universal experience and um, and we want to react to it in that way. The, and I should stay just to give your listeners the utmost respect. Like I know they already know what I just said. Everyone already knows how we should respond to failure. We know we should, you know, detect it, acknowledge it, analyze it, change their behavior and continue to take those risks. Everyone knows that. Um, and in many ways we think we do it because we know what it is. But the reality is that almost none of us myself included are able to actually practice, um, that intelligent failure consistently when we’re in the midst of it. The great analogy that my co author Diana Kander shared with me was it’s analogous to what we do when we fall like when we, when we fall down, our instincts are to, you know, to put our arms out to brace our fall, we tight, tense up and we tend to break wrists and hips and all sorts of other things. Falling is the number one reason why people end up in the hospital. Um, and yet there’s a right way to fall. Uh and there’s there’s examples of physiotherapists and and even this 80 year old man that I read about that like practices falling well every day. And it goes around like assisted living centers teaching other generally older people how to fall well. And it’s totally different. You you let your body relax to kind of absorb more of the shock, you protect, you know, your head or your side with your arms depending on where you’re falling and kind of tuck and roll out of it. Um but that’s not what our instincts are and most people have never thought about that, right? We we don’t and the same is true with failure. We don’t think that our instincts might lead us astray. And no one, probably no one’s ever told us that our instincts might lead us astray. Um but in almost all cases, um our instincts and and often organizational norms, learned behaviors will cause us not to fill intelligently. Um and so we need to practice our tuck and roll out of our failures. Uh and and learn what that is.

[00:20:26.74] spk_0:
I just have one correction to make. Uh they they are our listeners, our listeners.

[00:20:31.14] spk_1:
Thank you. So

[00:20:52.94] spk_0:
where do we go astray? Um there there you call them exit ramps that we can uh we avail ourselves of very well as you’re saying, you know, very conveniently, but not not more than convenient instinctively. We avail ourselves of uh Mhm exiting the the ideal that ideal loop of failing intelligently.

[00:21:00.54] spk_1:
Oh, you know, it’s um how long is your podcast? Because I feel like this is the whole like I’ve been doing this work for 10 years, this is the whole reason I have a job. So I could go on for days about this. Well

[00:21:12.23] spk_0:
we have an hour,

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[00:21:14.09] spk_0:
Give us about another 40

[00:21:15.30] spk_1:
minutes. I will, I will try to but

[00:21:30.84] spk_0:
we don’t but I also would like we we need to spend some time on how to re conceive failure, you know, in your organization so that you’re avoiding some of the avoiding some of these exit ramps. So maybe maybe not every

[00:21:35.14] spk_1:

[00:21:36.22] spk_0:
every one of the the exits, but you know, there’s there’s some, there’s like like there’s some introspection involved.

[00:22:33.24] spk_1:
Yeah, I think there’s some common ones for sure. So I mean a big one folks, we tend to assume that it’s easy to detect failure. We just know when it happens. But a big challenge that I see is the is the kind of denial or escalating commitment um biases that we have that prevent us from even detecting that what we’re doing is a failure and have us keep doing the things that we probably should stop. You know, that denial comes from a place of either, we’re not getting the information that we need are asking the right folks for feedback about what’s working and what’s not um or simply confirmation bias. You know, we want to believe that things are working on are going well. So we look for information that reinforces that. Um, what about

[00:22:36.14] spk_0:
Tito, can we talk a little about personal and institutional, both on both levels? Ego.

[00:22:51.84] spk_1:
That’s interesting. I, so I’ll give you a personal example of this. Um, just before I started my company fell forward, I started a website called admitting failure And it was a place for anyone to share their stories of failure and learning, you know, never again, what a mistake he repeated because this website existed built into the database. There’s gonna be thousands, thousands of failure stories shared on this. Got a lot of attention to a lot of media interviews and you know, I, I don’t know, it’s been whatever 13 years since then. And there are 32 stories shared on that site. 32

[00:23:14.91] spk_0:
is a much more exemplary place than we realized certainly than you realize you’re just a negative, negative

[00:23:21.95] spk_1:
asking people

[00:23:23.26] spk_0:
Of humanity why why are you so harsh on humanity? There’s only, there only been 32 failures in 13 years.

[00:24:57.94] spk_1:
Exactly. Um, and, and on the other side of that, I’m totally amazed that 32 per strangers wanted to put the failures on my, but uh, and, and I had, I had some, some donor funding for that. And I remember the day very clearly when they were telling me like, no, this, this isn’t working actually. You have zero stories on this, this experiment failed, ironically the site about failure failed. You need to do something else. And I’m supposed to be great at this. You know, I’m supposed to be the one that has that healthy relationship with failure. That’s what I’m trying to help people create by building this site after all. And I’m sitting there talking to donors being like, you’re wrong, let me show you all of the reasons why this is working. And there were like a couple of indicators that it was going well, but they were right obviously, and I just, I don’t know if it, I wouldn’t call it ego so much as I loved the idea so much and I wanted it to succeed so much and and perhaps a little bit of sunk costs fallacy to like I’d sunk a lot of my time and energy into, to making it and I really wanted it to work that it was really hard for me to see that it hadn’t worked. And I had that optimism bias as well. Like I just, I thought that if we just kept at it and if I just did a few different things, we might figure it out and ultimately it wasn’t, it wasn’t gonna work if you build it, they will not share your favorite stories and just and and it was only through the process of accepting that that I was able to start fail forward and and realized what was actually needed and what I actually want to spend my time on, but but it didn’t happen immediately.

[00:25:21.84] spk_0:
Is there is there such a thing as a a final failure that that we we just it’s unreal. It’s unrecoverable. We’re going beyond, we’re getting little metaphysical, but that’s such a beautiful

[00:25:23.94] spk_1:
question. I

[00:25:32.44] spk_0:
mean, on the beyond the organization, maybe it’s an individual, you know, is there such a thing on either level as the final unrecoverable failure?

[00:27:20.54] spk_1:
And you know, I think it’s always possible that any failure will destroy us. I think it’s also always possible that any failure could transform us into something wiser if we let it, I think it has less to do about the actual facts of the event and more to do with where we’re at as as human beings, you know, do we have, Do we um do we have the resources we need uh and the support we need to actually recover and try again? Um Do people believe in us? Do we believe in ourselves? Do we have enough time to do that healing process and get enough distance from it that we can look objectively and learn the lessons that we need to do? We have the self awareness um to kind of ask ourselves the questions that we need to and bring in the people we need to to be able to maximize what we can learn from it. There’s a lot of different pieces that have to be at work there. Um but even the worst failures, I always um I always believe it is possible to use those moments uh to become more human. Vm The metaphor I love to use is the japanese art of repairing pottery with gold, I believe it’s called. Um So you take these broken pieces of pottery and you you glue them together with gold enamel and the pieces are just stunning and the art form recognizes that the piece is more beautiful for having been broken. You’re not hiding it. You know, you’re not trying to put it back to just the way it was. Um you know, you’re saying like I I can be better because of this.

[00:27:29.14] spk_0:
So you don’t think there is

[00:27:30.59] spk_1:

[00:27:32.04] spk_0:
final final failure. If if you have the right support confidence resources, you know, the things that the things that you describe Alright, alright, I

[00:27:41.86] spk_1:
don’t, I don’t think any failure has to be final.

[00:27:44.08] spk_0:
I think you can mess

[00:27:45.12] spk_1:
up really, really bad and you can hurt a lot of people and and and and then it becomes even more important that you do the near impossible work of repairing with gold.

[00:28:10.04] spk_0:
Mhm. Those, you know, those resources that support even the confidence um

[00:28:11.44] spk_1:
that’s going to vary

[00:28:46.24] spk_0:
depending on your background, I’m I’m thinking of women minorities who don’t uh don’t in, in, in a lot of, a lot of situations have, you know have that even the internal the self confidence, let alone the external support and confidence resources that more privileged folks do have, that’s gonna, that’s gonna affect your your outcome from the same failure across all across all folks.

[00:30:23.44] spk_1:
I know and it is a who uh just in the injustice piled on the injustice, I guess that’s how I might describe that one that that the privileged and the ones that that have all those opportunities. Um you know, it’s it’s easy to feel it’s easy for for us to stand up and say like, yeah, feel fast, feel often go out, feel fast and break things, you know, and you put that poster up on your wall uh, when that speaks to a very small sliver of the population that can actually do that with that kind of gung ho rara Silicon Valley, um pizzas. Um it’s because, you know, they have endless resources and and uh and a and a culture that supports folks to try try again. Um, and I think, I think what’s really needed across um across those boundaries, like, you know, for for for all of us um to offer each other grace in times of failure that, you know, we all need that time and we’re all capable and and it’s always possible to um, to move forward more wisely. So how do we give each other that grace of the second chance um would be would be my invitation and not just to the to the uh, the privileged few, but to

[00:30:30.24] spk_0:
everyone interesting. Our, our conversation has taken a different turn for

[00:30:34.74] spk_1:

[00:30:35.04] spk_0:
an hour or so. But that’s fine.

[00:30:36.11] spk_1:

[00:30:37.96] spk_0:
only got to the

[00:30:38.55] spk_1:
first step around the loop and the exits. My goodness

[00:30:46.34] spk_0:
you did. I know well you’re, you’re, you’re suffering a lackluster host. You know, I, I think I digress and no etcetera. But uh,

[00:30:49.66] spk_1:

[00:30:50.03] spk_0:
I think very, very informative introspective. You know, I appreciate your sharing your not your own, not only your own stories but

[00:31:00.04] spk_1:
your thoughts.

[00:33:04.74] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I wish for you. Easy, comfortable donor relationships. What am I talking about? The kinds of relationships where you can pick up the phone, the person is going to take your call or if you leave a message, you’re very, very confident. There’s, there’s no question they’re gonna call you back. The kinds of relationships where you can write a quick handwritten note. It doesn’t have to be a formal letter 8.5 by 11 word document. The kinds of relationships where there’s trust. There’s and these relationships are fun. Right? Those are the kinds of relationships I hope you have with your donors planned giving donors or otherwise it doesn’t make a difference. Um, I posted about this on linkedin and Kirsten Hill suggested the word authentic to describe these relationships. Absolutely, Joanna brody also commented and reminded me that these kinds of relationships ease tension, Joanna. Absolutely right. So that if there is ever conflict, hopefully there isn’t. But you know, things happen on both sides. If there is ever a conflict it’s so much easier to resolve when you’ve got these comfortable authentic donor relationships. These are the kinds of relationships I hope you’re striving for and I hope you’re enjoying with your donors. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for improve your relationship with failure with Ashley. Good. See relationships again, the relationships are ubiquitous. Let’s talk more on, on an organizational level. What, what, what kind of culture? Um, what kind of ceo do, what can a

[00:33:08.35] spk_1:

[00:33:18.14] spk_0:
of others who is not necessarily the ceo due to, to foster this. Um, intelligence failing.

[00:33:21.34] spk_1:
Mm hmm. What

[00:33:25.04] spk_0:
do we need to encourage others to think about? What do we need to do for ourselves?

[00:33:26.95] spk_1:

[00:33:31.14] spk_0:
guess acknowledging our own failures when they, when they occur setting the

[00:34:58.54] spk_1:
example. Mm hmm. Um again, there’s many ways I can answer that question. I think there’s an there’s an individual because organizations are made up of individuals. There’s something that everyone of us as individuals can do and leaders most importantly must do if they want to see a healthy relationship with failure thrive? Uh, so there’s the individual actions. There’s also kind of the organizational structures. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna touch on the individual side first. Um, and that’s simply, I, I love to talk about four mindsets or like our ground rules that I often set when I’m facilitating groups. Um So the ground rules are blameless nous humility, empathy and curiosity. So the blameless nous is recognizing that everyone makes, no one shows up to work hoping to mess up. You know, we’re all trying to do the best job possible. So blame really doesn’t make sense. You know what you really want to be doing is figuring out how exceptional talented, hard working, intelligent people. I made the wrong call and and we ended up with the result that was that was undesirable. Um You know, how did we arrive at that conclusion? What what information was missing? How you know it’s a process vlog what how so how did that happen? Never who who doesn’t matter. Um because everyone’s trying their best. We want to know how are great people. Um You know I got to the wrong answer right?

[00:35:11.64] spk_0:
So before we move to the empathy we we can we can avoid the finger pointing. I mean maybe we do that. Maybe that we do that behind closed doors but you know to try to improve. But but there’s not there’s not a lot of value in you know who caused who caused it. Like it could be

[00:35:21.69] spk_1:
that there’s no value in it. It’s completely counterproductive

[00:35:25.94] spk_0:

[00:35:26.73] spk_1:
that blaming someone has the exact opposite impact that you want it to. So it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Maybe they deserved to be finger pointed, who cares? Because by pointing fingers at them, you are guaranteeing that they show up even more

[00:35:41.31] spk_0:
defensive because they know

[00:35:42.75] spk_1:
that you’re blaming them and therefore the more defensive they are, the less likely they’re ever going to be to learn from that experience because you never learn if you’re stuck in that defensive position because you’re just there protecting yourself,

[00:35:55.17] spk_0:
protecting your job

[00:35:56.02] spk_1:
or you know, whatever,

[00:35:57.64] spk_0:
it’s not only them, everyone around them will see, see the, see the blame, see the injury that it causes to the blamed person or people and and react the way you’re describing. So

[00:36:21.53] spk_1:
it’s legitimate to be angry and upset that somebody did the wrong thing, I get that. So but deal with that within yourself before having the conversation with them. If you want to maximize what you can learn and move forward more wisely, I’m not saying it’s easy, it’s almost impossible,

[00:36:25.92] spk_0:
like so much of

[00:36:26.80] spk_1:
this, but but that’s the goal.

[00:36:30.18] spk_0:
Maybe it’s easier than almost impossible. Okay,

[00:36:33.90] spk_1:
depends on, it depends on the situation,

[00:36:41.33] spk_0:
reasonably likely that you can do this with some with some some of your own introspection.

[00:36:43.23] spk_1:

[00:36:44.35] spk_0:
it takes a lot

[00:37:48.03] spk_1:
of self awareness. Yeah. But yeah, that’s blameless nous right, recognizing that no matter how bad the decision the chances are that person did it with good intentions. Um the so the second and humility Um you know, so often we want to blame as opposed to looking at ourselves as I often say in groups, you know, even if the failure was 99% not your fault. What’s the 1% of things you could have done differently? What’s the 1% you did contribute or did what didn’t you do that? You might have, you know, really looking for your your own role in trying to see and own whatever piece you can the the empathy piece. I use the word empathy almost to get folks out of that tendency to judge. Obviously those judgmental thoughts are always there, especially in terms of failure when emotions are high. Um, and often the consequences are high. But really trying to get ourselves out of that tendency to judge and move into a stance of empathy, recognizing that um, you know, really putting yourselves in their shoes that you can see how they could have arrived at that conclusion or that decision, right? I understand they might have had this lens, you know, really trying to understand where they might be coming from. So even if you don’t agree, you can at least empathize with with their position. And then finally, probably the most important one.

[00:38:05.61] spk_0:
This is the second time we’ve talked about empathy.

[00:38:08.72] spk_1:
Mm hmm. It’s important that

[00:38:16.22] spk_0:
there’s a lot of a lot of that in this work because we’re talking because what we’re talking about its failure. You if you if you’re not going to have empathy for, you know earlier we were talking about the people who are mistreated,

[00:38:22.62] spk_1:
you lied

[00:38:28.72] spk_0:
to deceived, you know, whatever by errors of omission or um, You know, but now we’re talking about empathy for the folks who contributed even 1% to the failure.

[00:41:05.91] spk_1:
Yeah, often I hear when I’m facilitating in teams, you know, staff want to blame their boss, you didn’t set me up for success or the executive didn’t do this or the donor didn’t do this or whatever it is. Um, and it’s, and it’s stepping back from that that your judgments may be true, but it doesn’t matter. Can you understand where they’re coming from so that you can have a conversation with them about how you do better going forward. That’s the whole goal, right? The goal is learning moving forward more wisely. Um, anyway, the last of the four values or mindsets um, is curiosity and this is the one that I probably spend the most time on only because I think it’s, we’re so we’re such great problem solvers, especially in times of failure, we just want to identify the problem, I want to fix it and often what folks need much, much more than problem solving cause if it was easy to solve they would’ve already done it is the curiosity, you know, trying to, trying to help others deepen their learning around what around the experience and ask the curious questions to help understand their perspective. So you can get at that rich or learning to allow yourself to move forward more wisely. Um so those are those are the four mindsets that ideally, like I said, leaders exemplify, they share their own failures, they, you know, with that humility and that blameless nous. They get curious when other failures happen um and they empathize, you know, when they’re, when they’re folks maybe don’t, you know, implement their ideas as well as they could, but there uh they empathize with them and and ask how they can do better and then so that’s the, that’s the individual side and basically that’s for you, do this for your, your golden right? You might not even need the organizational side, but the reality is each individual, you know, it’s it’s a lot to put on an individual to ask them to show up with those four mindsets all the time. Um that and that our organizational structures often make that very difficult. So how do we shape our organizations? So that that’s the norm is basically the questions that I often ask, um executive teams because they’re in the position to start to shape recruitment systems and training systems and performance appraisal systems and um you know, the way stories are told and what stories get told and how people do after action reviews and do we create enough time and resources for those and basically my whole job on the organizational structure side is to make sure we’re not expecting X, but rewarding for why, as in like we’re expecting a healthy relationship with failure and people to own their failures and work together to have these conversations, but we reward people who defend themselves and throw other people under the bus and um, and prove that it wasn’t their fault. You know, we’re trying to avoid that, uh, that folly

[00:41:44.71] spk_0:
Many years ago when I was in the first year of the podcast, which is 10, this is our, this is our 10th year. So this is our 12th year. This part, this is our 12th year, 2010. Um, I had someone on from the new york times, Stephanie strom back when there was such a thing called the nonprofit beat in, in a, in a, you know, a world leader newspaper that doesn’t exist anymore. But she covered something that the World Bank ran called failure Fair

[00:41:46.41] spk_1:

[00:42:00.20] spk_0:
Fair had an E at the end F A I R E. Um, and they were, um, for listeners, this was the August 27th 2010 show. Um, the World Bank was highlighting

[00:42:01.79] spk_1:

[00:42:08.70] spk_0:
was failure Fair be out be open. Um, and you know, 12 years ago that that wasn’t such

[00:42:11.10] spk_1:
a, there

[00:42:53.50] spk_0:
was, we were in the dark ages, I’d say of, of, of intelligent failure may be failing intelligently. Probably didn’t, maybe not even even existed as a phrase, but um, it was, it was the dark ages in any case. Um, so I, I don’t, I don’t know if the World Bank continues that or did it again, but They did it in 2010 and for such a high profile organization, International Organization to do that. I thought it was exemplary. You know, it merited coverage. The new york times felt felt that. So uh of course the new york times follows non profit radio that’s how they get their ideas for for chauffeur articles is by listening to the property naturally. Um anyway, just a shout out to the World Bank and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of failure fair.

[00:43:18.60] spk_1:
Yeah, I spoke at one of my hosted the, if you excuse my language, the puck up nights in Toronto for a while. Um Knights, Knights. Yeah, they are, it’s not necessarily in the non profit world, but it’s largely entrepreneurs that get together and it’s kind of a a very authentic networking experience. Pre covid obviously, but a

[00:43:23.19] spk_0:
very good chance

[00:43:24.25] spk_1:
to come together and share share failures. Where

[00:43:26.89] spk_0:
where was that? Was that in Canada?

[00:44:00.39] spk_1:
They are in hundreds of cities all over the world now started by Leticia Gasca out of Mexico City and spread across the world. I I’m a real, I mean obviously I hosted, I’m a real fan of these events for many reasons. I think the best thing that they do is de stigmatize failure, they bring, you know, all these, all these earnest folks together and they have a couple of great speakers lined up to share their failures honestly and openly, and you just had this experience in the audience of watching these people share and you’re like, oh my gosh, like that’s a really bad failure and they’re still standing

[00:44:05.13] spk_0:

[00:44:05.37] spk_1:

[00:44:05.64] spk_0:

[00:44:07.52] spk_1:
Remember 1 1 guy,

[00:44:09.98] spk_0:
the session

[00:44:10.50] spk_1:
I was hosting, it was like millions and millions and millions of dollars, and I was like, I’m getting nervous as your host.

[00:44:17.70] spk_0:

[00:45:44.09] spk_1:
anyway, and you and you see, and you see that they that they lived through it and that they are stronger because of it, like you and you watch them and and you know, no one’s throwing tomatoes at them, you know, they really are the strong wise leaders at the front of the room still. And so there’s this real de stigmatization that happens, it allows everyone in the audience to kind of put down their usual masks that you wear when you’re at networking events and actually show up a little bit more more human as I’ve said a number of times in this interview. Um so I love them from that perspective, I think the danger in them is that we assume that if we share those failures, no one else is going to make that mistake, like that’s how we’re going to learn, and I would say they’re not a very good learning tool because it’s so rare that someone in the audience isn’t exactly the same position and needs to learn that exact same lesson. So I think it’s great from a cultural perspective. Um, and I’d say the other risk in them that I I feel really uncomfortable with them and not for profit world is the celebrating failure because those failures have real consequences on people’s livelihoods. So when you have an event and you’re making light of them, i it just it doesn’t sit well with me. I’m all for de stigmatizing failure in a healthy relationship with failure. But I can’t get behind celebrating it because you know, you’re talking about people’s livelihoods. Um, and

[00:46:01.38] spk_0:
maybe people who are impacted in other ways by by the failure. You know, if the if the project or program didn’t go well because we didn’t understand the culture in in Eritrea than than those people of you know, there may be relationships damaged there

[00:46:05.98] spk_1:

[00:46:09.68] spk_0:
where we, where we came with good intentions but uh, you know, but messed up people’s lives on the ground somewhere to

[00:46:41.88] spk_1:
Yeah, and to me that I mean that is not to be celebrated right? That is like I have a moral obligation to maximize what I learned from this experience. Like I’m allowed to get it wrong, I’m I’m not, I don’t have to be perfect, but if I do get it wrong, it is my responsibility to learn what I can from that and share that. And I think that’s more if we can come at it from that tone. It speaks a little bit more to me than I think some of these events got a little too um celebratory,

[00:46:43.07] spk_0:
celebratory. Yeah. Not

[00:46:45.22] spk_1:
to say that the lights aren’t fun. They are fun, but acronym is fun, but you know, it’s it’s from a place of recognizing how important it is that we learn from those.

[00:46:57.68] spk_0:
Wasn’t that uh the premise for your database was

[00:47:02.92] spk_1:

[00:47:04.08] spk_0:
nobody would make these mistakes again

[00:47:07.48] spk_1:
was wrong?

[00:47:24.78] spk_0:
I know I’m not I’m not I’m not I’m not blaming wright. I’m not blaming, I’m trying to I’m trying to be empathetic, but that was one of your objectives was to to prevent this from happening again. But right now, I mean the likelihood of someone being in the same circumstance, you know, a similar program, similar set of facts. Very reading

[00:47:34.54] spk_1:
that particular story on that web, particular website that they may or may not know about is that it’s pretty unlikely

[00:47:46.98] spk_0:
right? That too, Yes, they’ve got got to go to the website and read it. Yes. Um

[00:47:47.42] spk_1:
made a few mistakes in my assumptions around that project.

[00:48:00.67] spk_0:
What about a story um case um anonymized or not. I don’t, you know what, where uh an organization turned around. It’s it’s it’s thinking and maybe maybe maybe didn’t necessarily fail a second time more more intelligently,

[00:48:10.37] spk_1:
but you

[00:48:10.50] spk_0:
know, where you you saw, you saw a change

[00:48:12.86] spk_1:
in an in an organ at

[00:48:17.67] spk_0:
an organizational level that was that was going to make it more likely that in the future they would fail intelligently,

[00:49:00.97] spk_1:
You know, it’s funny, I often get asked for organizational examples like who do we look to to really um you know, be a role model for this and I shy away from it mostly because it’s not an arrival, like it’s not, you know, I have figured this out, I now have the perfect organizational structure and our leadership is exemplifying these things and we have like gold, gold star certification, we are an intelligence failure organization. It just, You know, I’ve been doing this for 10 years, I’ve worked with some incredible organizations, incredible leaders um and it’s, there is no end point in this,

[00:49:04.35] spk_0:
it’s a journey then

[00:49:23.37] spk_1:
maybe we’ll talk about it individually, it’s probably a little bit easier. I’ve been trying to promote a healthy relationship with failure for over a decade and I still struggle with my own failures and I still respond badly sometimes, you know, I’m aware of it often or probably hopefully I can recognize

[00:49:30.39] spk_0:
it in myself a little

[00:50:58.26] spk_1:
faster than most people do, but I still suck at it. So for me it is not about like this organization is totally figured it out, it’s how do we see this as a practice? Um kinda like staying in shape I guess, you know that we’re going to the gym and we’re lifting those heavy weights because we know that we have to keep doing that if we want to keep our muscle mass, like I think the same thing is true with um with a healthy relationship with failure, we want to keep pushing ourselves, keep taking those risks and seeing ourselves fall down and right, I know what I’m supposed to do when I do this, I’m supposed to own it and I’m bringing together the people that were involved to analyze it and that’s really uncomfortable and I don’t want to have that conversation, but I’m going to and I’m going to try to change my behavior and I’m going to ask for people to tell me when I make that mistake again. Um and I’m going to continue to push myself and that’s that’s kind of the the forever cycle. There isn’t necessarily an arriving um and I think there’s a lot of, a lot of groups that I’ve worked with that have taken, you know, three steps forward, two steps back, you know, another step or two for, you know, it gets a it’s hard to keep up. Um It’s hard, there, there is no example is basically my long winded way of saying that that, but there are a lot of incredible organizations who are doing incredible things with incredible leadership um really striving to make what is not instinctive work. Um

[00:51:14.36] spk_0:
Yes, counterintuitive, not right, but it’s a it’s a journey, it’s a practice. Alright, alright, you told an interesting story on another conversation with someone about um

[00:51:15.66] spk_1:

[00:51:24.96] spk_0:
Step Forward, two steps back um a an explorer in the in the North Pole. I thought that was a poignant story. Can you

[00:51:30.46] spk_1:
absolutely share

[00:51:31.94] spk_0:
That 1? You know what I’m talking about?

[00:51:39.66] spk_1:
I do. I do and you know what his name is totally escaping me. So please go back in your show notes and like reference the name. I’ll look it up after the

[00:51:41.57] spk_0:

[00:53:39.95] spk_1:
Um But it was a an explorer who an arctic explorer. So on the arctic ice sheets um And the North Pole has no no landmass, right? It’s just ice sheets that are constantly constantly moving around. He’s trying to make it to the North Pole. And you know, he’d walk and walk for hours and hours and at the end of um you know 10 12, 14 hours of walking. You have to set up camp and rest because you know, he’s still human and he said his gps and he’d wake up in the morning and would often find out that he had floated back and undid all of the work that he’d done the days before trying to make that progress. And he would still have to pack up his camp and keep marching towards that North Pole. And how um oh gosh! You can only imagine how that would feel like the futility of it, the the powerlessness in that moment of changing the directions of the ocean currents underneath you that are moving you further away from your definition? I think such a beautiful metaphor for what we often experience in our work. You know, we work so hard and toil and just the, the forces of the ocean can pull us away from that goal. And um, and he had some great wisdom to share and again, I apologize for not remembering his name, but it was basically he’d wake up and and even with that information that he had just been moved far further away from his gold while he slept, um, he’d set his sight on one ice mount, You know, whatever it was 50 ft away and say, you know what if I make it there today, that’s success and that’s that’s what he needed to pack up his gear, put back on his skis and and keep going and he gets that iceman and say, okay if I make it to that iceman today is a success and and little by little those little, those little those days, those little goals, you know, eventually, um I reached that North Pole goal

[00:53:55.35] spk_0:
mm actually, good founder of fail forward. The company is at fail forward dot org and at fell forward Ashley, thank you very much. Very stimulating, interesting conversation. Thanks thanks so much for sharing

[00:54:03.95] spk_1:
my pleasure

[00:54:07.34] spk_0:
next week. Talk about humility. I’m working on

[00:54:09.24] spk_1:

[00:54:10.14] spk_0:
If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:54:16.44] spk_1:

[00:54:53.34] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95%. Go out and be great, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for July 19, 2019: Leadership & The Power Of Failure

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Failures are as powerful as success stories to rally folks around your cause. Whitney Raver encourages you to embrace your bungles and botches–and share them with your communities. She’s chief development strategist at What’s The Word.

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Transcript for 449_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190719.mp3 Processed on: 2019-07-20T15:18:54.577Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…07…449_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190719.mp3.885012872.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/07/449_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190719.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, the Video guide for non-profit marketing, which is the definitive guide. I’m in it, they quoted me. Ah, and it’s a very astute, articulate on accurate quote. They got it right, Um, in all its students and articulateness, this guide is from type Ito T y p i t o type a type edo dot com. They’re the canvas of video. The guide includes the strategic like acquisition, engagement, stewardship and tactical, like lower thirds and captioning and text animation. You’ll find this thing that I’m in at t y p i t o dot com and I thank them for including me and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of Dalek. Oh, several ism if you hit me with the heady idea that you missed today’s show leadership. Nikki Henry wants leaders to communicate effectively set clear expectations, break down barriers embrace D I and more. She’s CEO of ladies leading ladies, and she spills it all. Then the power of failure failures are as powerful as success stories to rally folks around your cause, Whitney Raver encourages you to embrace your bungles and Boches and share them with your communities. She’s chief development strategist at What’s the Word on Tony Steak, too? Show number 450 Responsive by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software, Denali, fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communication, Shin’s PR and content. For non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s Nicky Henry and leadership. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show Nikki Henry. She is the founder and CEO of Ladies Leading Ladies, a company dedicated to helping women and non binary people grow as supportive leaders. She’s a passionate dork. She’s at ladies underscore leading underscore, and the company is at ladies leading ladies dot com. Welcome to non-profit radio. Nikki Henry. Thank you so much, Tony. My pleasure. What’s a passionate dork? So I call myself a dork because I am super, uh, nerdy in the way that I want to make sure that data and research backs up what I am teaching with leadership. As I was growing as a leader, I always went back to the data and research and my undergrads in psychology. So I just have that nerdy numbers data research part of me. But I’m super passionate, and I I have worked in non-profits for the last decade because I care about families, and I care about our communities. Okay. Uh, it’s fair. Of course. You know, that was that. I didn’t label you that. That’s Ah, that’s your idea, That is, um So we were supposed to connect that? Ah, 1990 sea. And then you were so passionate about helping your audience on. They wanted so much of you afterwards that you couldn’t make it to the recordings boost on time. And so now so here we are, many months later, but I’m glad it worked. Doubt metoo piela very. For a while, I was a little I was a little noncommunicative. You e mailed. And then I said Okay, hold on. I’ll get I’ll get to you when you know when I have a breaking schedule. So I don’t know. I hope that, uh see, I like Esso I was not reaching out. Um, I like to lead by fear and intimidation. Um uh, condescension. You, no doubt. So that’s my style. That’s right. That’s why that’s why I wasn’t getting back to you. I mean, we could have done this the first week after ntcdinosaur. I wanted to exercise my leadership in my, uh, my white male privilege and authority. Oh, my goodness. Just so fun. Yeah. So I feel like that’s my leadership style. Is that is that is that in line with what you’re doing at the lady’s leading ladies? You know, I feel like you just did my intro and the opposite. Yeah. Okay, so my my method is the antithesis of yours. I would say so. All right. I don’t know. Fear and doubt and loathing and condescension. They seem to work well for me, but all right way don’t have to go down that way. Um, So you want Thio? Well, tell me what leading ladies leading ladies is about. Yeah. So this company really came out of my own experience in the workplace. And like I said, I spent about 10 years in non-profits working in different leadership roles, and I noticed a couple of things. One, especially in the nonprofit world, were very much trial by fire. I got thrown in, um, you know, as a first time leader and had to figure it out. So there was a lot of that imposter syndrome going on with me. A lot of the scared that people are gonna find out. I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. Um and so I just dove into teaching myself. So I definitely saw that piece. I saw that lack and I saw that white space, especially with our non-profits on properly training and investing in our leaders so that we conserve our community’s best. And the second thing I saw is one of the programs that I worked with. We scaled rapidly over a five year period. We went from four full time employees to 55 during that time that I was there. And so we had a ton going on. And what I noticed was specifically the women that I worked with who were incredibly hard working so intelligent, um, and had been with me from the get go, weren’t throwing their hat in the ring for those promotions. And for those management opportunities. And so I got to really chat with them and dig in. But I know this isn’t a unique problem. This is something that we’re facing in our workplaces where we have a lack of representation of really strong, amazing women in those leadership roles. Okay. And you want to turn that around Exactly. Okay. Uh, so you’re some of your advice is around effective communications for women. So what are what are what are women not getting right that they could be doing better around communications And And how do we sex it? You know what’s fun s o with the with the business. I really have a passion around bringing women and non binary people into representation and leadership. But what I teach is not gender specific. And what I actually found, the more that I dug into research and data, you know, from Gallup in different areas is that if we’re gonna go with gender stereotypes, women are actually better prepared to be the most effective leaders. Based on what the data is showing us, an effective leader looks like. And what that means is now we need coaches. We don’t need managers. We need. People who are focusing on relationships are focusing on development are focusing on, um, that communication, bringing together multiple perspectives and really creating a team versus just the top down, you know, crack the whip type of accountability that we may have had in the past and may still have in many workplaces. So it’s really about that communication and getting to know your people one on one as human beings and how you can uniquely motivate them to be the most successful team member that they could be. Okay, s o teamwork. Collaborative. You know, people, uh, we just have, like, a minute and 1/2 or so before before our break. What? How come we, uh s So how can we break down the barriers that exist between leader and following, You know, whatever Employer, employee advisor, supervisor worker. I mean, is it as simple as just like social events o r. Go deeper? I think it’s deeper, and I think it’s two main things. I think that it’s training and rewarding our leadership for being those supportive leaders or as burn a Brown says a daring leader. Um and then the second piece is really focusing on diversity equity and inclusion. I know you were speaking about that on a previous podcast where we really have to dive into our own identity is the identities of those that were working with and be able to really embrace the assets that come along with that diversity and an inclusive workplace. Yeah. Yeah, we did. We get ah, a couple of d I topics and 19 ntc and we talked about it before that. Um right. Why don’t we, uh, take our break right now? Pursuant. They’ve got a podcast as well, and there’s there’s is go beyond. It’s hosted by their vice president, Taylor Shanklin, who’ve been a guest on non-profit radio a couple times. Ah, a couple of recent episodes of go beyond our Self Care for Leaders and four digital trends. For 2019 you will find the podcast Go beyond at pursuing dot com slash Resource is now let’s go back. Thio. Nikki Henry. Okay. Thank you for that indulgence, Nikki. Henry. Absolutely. Go take care of our our sponsors. Um all right. Um So how do we so I’d like to get into some some, you know. How do you do it? Not just not just not just what to do, but but how So how can How can an effective leader get to know they’re there? There, folks better abila more, more personally. You know, as you were saying, Yeah, So at 19 NTC, um, I was going through this with our group there and some of the three top things that I really focus on our your communication. So both in meetings and facilitating those meetings, setting clear goals and just motivating and engaging your team. So one of the things that I really push, um, and have seen work in my own work but also in others is that our leaders take time to sit down one on one on a weekly basis with each of their direct reports. And when I say that people screeched to a halt because nobody needs more mean eight meetings, nobody wants to be stuck in meetings more than they already are. Right? So it’s really about how to make those meetings productive. Um, And how Thio, I understand that making that investment of time these weekly one on ones or 25 30 minutes make that investment of time is actually going to give you more time on the return because you’re having less of people knocking on your door and saying Hey, do you have a minute? Hey, can I ask you a question? Hate kanai This on the same page? You’re aligning at least weekly. Nobody. Converium off course too far if you’re really talking on a weekly basis and you work into that weekly conversation a human element as well. So asking people about their Weiqing of weekend asking people about their family and making sure that there is that human element in it as well as we move forward. Okay, this is related to something I just read on Seth Gordon’s Blawg. Okay, basically, he was talking about slack. You know that we don’t have to be so tightly, um timed and so efficient in the in the short term that in the long term we’re going to suffer. He uses the analogy of airplanes the way you know it. Sze time down to the minute. And if there’s a storm, you know when every plane is being utilized in the short time in the immediate term there’s a storm or a breakdown of an aircraft, there’s no slack built in. So the whole system cascades and can collapse. If there’s a storm in L. A or New York or Chicago Santa, um, the whole country can come to a halt aircraft. So, um, you know, So his recommendation is, you know, don’t be so short term focused and build in some what you might consider to be inefficiency in the short term. But in the long term, it’s gonna be it’s gonna give you rewards. That sounds like you’re saying, have these weekly 30 minute meetings. Um, what you’re gonna know they’re gonna cause you a little tightness in, but in the long run, you’ll get you’ll get Amore, I guess Committed employees who you get to know someone who’s gonna be more likely to come to you with a problem instead of quit when there’s a problem. Exactly. Take a week of Lee sick leave and then quit while there’s reportedly sick. They’re out looking for you. Actually had an interview. Yeah. Yeah, they’re gonna talk to you and you’ll develop amore more committed. More, more collaborative employees. Exactly. All right. All right. So 30 minutes, 30 minute, one on ones. You okay? What What else do you like to see so and a lot of these, they might sound like we’re going back to the basics, right? But another latto always. That’s not always, but that’s not always bad. Yes, we could use a more basic. So I think it’s important because we might know these things. But practicing them is a whole different thing. So I also talk about smart girls, which again people kind of roll their eyes because I asked everyone in the room How many of you have heard of smart goals? Almost everyone raises their hands, right? And then I asked people, How many of you are utilizing that when you give out, you know, a task list or goals to your team members? Crickets? Very rarely are people actually looking at. Okay, we’re talking about what our priorities are for the weak. I’m, you know, helping someone to set those priorities. But I didn’t take the extra 30 seconds, one minute, two minutes to go through and make sure that it was specific that we know how we’re measuring success. But it’s actually achievable that it’s relevant to what we’re working on the big picture. So we’re not just doing busywork and that there’s a deadline that were clear. And if we actually took those act extra 30 seconds to two minutes to go through that with things that were asking of our team, we would have such a more efficient workplace. But also we would have such a better relationship because our expectations are a lie. And we know what’s being asked of us. We have clear expectations. And also, as a leader, you’re going to get a project or a product that is actually what you asked for versus that person trying to read your mind and ending up. You get something and you say, What the heck is? This is not what I asked for it all. And you know okay, yeah, clear expectations, any anything. So let’s ah, shift a little bit from Well, they’re all related. But expect eight expectations setting no more advice around making that clear for people. Yes, I think that you know, those two things really tied together. So the smart girls on the one on ones because you want to be talking early often, Um, and especially as we are in Thio, a millennial generation that’s taking you know, is the largest part of our work force. You’re gonna see the same with Jen’s e J. Expect early and often immediate feedback. And so that’s going to increase that relationship. Increase that communication and decrease the times that you’re really going to end up with someone not understanding their expectations and veering off course so early and often regular feedback, both good and bad. Eso really balancing those? The other thing that I will say, especially because you’re putting these extra meetings on um on the calendar, is don’t hold meetings that could have been an email, so you’re already taken the time to sit down one on one. Don’t hold the weekly staff meeting or the weekly department meeting. If you’ve got nothing to say. If you’ve got no nothing that needs to be brainstorm or worked out as a team, if it’s just an update to policy, it’s a memo. It’s a schedule whole thing. Shoot it in an email, don’t add more time to meetings because that’s why people really, really dread them is because they’re just sitting in something that they could have read in an email in five minutes. Okay, you’re, uh go, Just go on back to the first point you made about being honest. You know it, Sze totally unfair to an employee Thio to find out at the annual or the semi annual performance review that you know there’s a problem with something exactly. And it’s been festering for months. For months or something, you never give the person a chance. Toe improve. Now you’re now it’s formal. Now it’s written now. Now they feel like they’ve been shat on Andi and they got like, a blind sided races versus having a conversation with him in one of the 30 minute one on one meetings. You know, there’s a problem. This is not. This is not the way we I want this done or you’re not meeting expectations or whatever the heck it is from from the hours you keep to the attire to the to the smelly food you do in the kitchen. You know, whatever it is, you’ve got to tell people and give them a chance to improve. Absolutely. And it’s something that leaders really struggle with, right? There’s a lot of the times were promoted into leadership positions because of the good job that we did in our last position, not because we particularly have leadership skills or or those types of things. It’s a reward for doing a good job. And so that means that we get a lot of leaders who haven’t had any leadership training. I think the last study that I looked at, over 45% of current leaders and managers have had no leadership or management training at all. We treat it as if it’s a talent or a natural ability, where, as it’s a skill just like learning, excel or learning a new database, Um and so a lot of people are conflict avoidance. And so they have a hard time having those easy at the beginning conversations about you know, Hey, you’re wearing too much perfume and it’s given so and so a headache. You know, something silly like that. They don’t have that up front, and then it turns into like what you’re saying. They’re being blindsided in a formal evaluation instead of just having a quick conversation. So building those relationships and trust and respect on a weekly basis also helps the leader to be more comfortable to bring those things about with with their employees and with their team members. But it’s also something that has to be practiced, and it has to be rewarded in the workplace as well for our leaders to be assertive and thio Thio knit problems in the bud and have those open and frank conversations. If someone says they don’t have enough time to do 30 minute meetings with everyone that reports to them, does that mean they have too many direct reports? So I was just going to say I have one of two answers. Either you are overseeing too many people directly, Um, or you are You don’t have any time because your people are constantly interrupting you. So there’s, you know, to kind of pieces to that. So if you’re generally speaking, if you are overseeing more than 10 people directly meaning there is no level of, you know someone in between, there’s not another person. They can go to. A lot of the time CEOs think. Well, I oversee the entire company. No, no, no. Just your direct reports. Um, if you’re overseeing more than 10 then probably you’re not able to give them the time that they need to be a coach versus just being a manager, and that is going to hold back your employee engagement, which then holds back the success of your teams in the success of your organization. So that is one thing. But the other piece is people think that they don’t have time. Well, if you took intentional time with your team, you would see within a month. If you really committed to this, you would see a huge amount of time saved because you were dealing with it on the front end, versus being reactive. Okay. Okay, Cool. Um, how about some motivation, huh? You touched on little Bit’s talk about explicitly motive motivating the folks who work for you. Yeah. So each of your each of your employees is a unique human being there in the work that they do for unique reasons. So getting to know them in those weekly meetings and elsewhere to understand why the they do the work they do is gonna be incredibly helpful to you as a leader, because then you can tap that’s specific reason to help motivate them. But more generally, I think there are a couple of things that we can do to motivate and create an engaging work environment as well. I think one thing is encouraging friendships at work. So not being the boss that walks into the room and then everyone’s a she because you’re not supposed to be talking, um, so allowing that also creating opportunities for people tohave lunches together to get together off the clock toe, you know, feel like they can actually create, um, these relationships that help them to be more resilient in the workplace. And I think also one huge piece of motivation that I think is often missed is talking to people about their long term development. And I talk a lot about doing that through what I call stay interviews and not just me. Everybody calls him stay interviews, Um, but a stay interview is a play on an exit interview. We get all of this really robust, amazing information when people walk out the door. Well, why don’t we ask those questions once or twice a year or once 1/4 and get that really important information? While we still have the talent, Let’s keep the town. Let’s retain them so deeper into their development in their long term career planning. So asking questions like what is it that troubles you here. What would you do differently like that? Exactly? Yeah. Taking exactly those exit interview questions and turning them into stay interview. So why do you work here? What do you love most about your job? What would you change if you had a magic wand and have that authority to do? So? What are some benefits that would make a difference to you wanting to stick around in this job? You know, things like that. Okay, Uh, now on the friend you know, that sort of developing the friendship side. I’ve had people say that they resent some of that. Why did they have to be friends with co workers? They’re they’re happy to have them. His coworkers. Why do they have to take them on his friends? I you know, and I totally get that. And I hear that as well from folks. And here’s the reason why, as a manager or a leader, you should push this because through research and study specifically through Gallup, they have shown that those who have a best friend at work are significantly more engaged and therefore significantly more productive at work. And when you think about it just, you know, anecdotally. Of course, If I got to show up every day and work with my best friend, I’m probably gonna be more happy to be there more eager to show up. You know, a happier human being and knowing that I have someone that I trust that I convinced to all of those things having that resiliency within the workplace is is fantastic. Not everyone’s gonna do it. Not everyone is going to be that engaged employees. They’re gonna be that there are going to be the types that one o’clock and clock out, go home, not talk about their personal life. Keep a very compartmentalized life. But I will say is the generations go on. That’s less and less because people don’t see the clear delineation between their work-life in their home life. Especially with technology. Yeah, especially right. Right. That’s that has changed. So much of our work-life is interwoven. In-kind personal. Okay, um, any, uh, any, like, special or, uh, types of events that you like to see or something fun that maybe people haven’t thought of it. We could all go out for drinks. You know, maybe it’s a bowling night, right? pizza on Fridays. You got something something special beyond the humdrum stuff that I just named. Sure, I think what’s important is to actually give your employees ownership over this. So what I’ve done in some of my past work places is to create. And they called themselves the fund committee. Um, but to create that committee and actually allow the employees to decide what they want to do with that time and if you can throw a little budget at it Wonderful. But also again coming from non-profit. Ah, one of the places that I worked with. We just did not have the budget for that. You know, we’re very Grant restricted and and we weren’t gonna get that that fund money. So what we decided to do instead is we worked with our controller, and we all decided to deduct $2 each paycheck to go into a fund committee fund because we wanted to get to know each other better. We wanted to have teamed building on, and it’s completely optional. And it’s a knot of, you know, we don’t send out the list to say, Hey, so and so is not in the fun committee. Um but, you know, allow that and then allow them to decide what it looks like with your approval to make sure that you’re not having an HR nightmare or you’re not, You know, misusing funds or anything like that. But let them have ownership. Let them decide, Let them tell you. Okay, okay. To try to ah, tryto resuscitate myself or laser tag. Laser tag. Could you do that? That’s not humdrum. I lovely attack. Yeah, Yeah. Um uh, Anything else you want to say about motivation? You know, I I think what’s important And this is something that I think we’re actually relatively good at in the nonprofit world, but is important to come back to We have to come back to our mission and we have to come back to our why on a regular basis. It’s really easy when we air show stressed with multiple grants and funding streams. And what not to get caught up in the numbers and your team? What they hear when they just hear numbers, numbers, numbers is that you’ve lost touch with the client. You’ve lost touch with the families. You’ve lost touch with the communities that we serve. So making sure that you’re bringing yourself back, but also as a team that you’re spending time to really reflect on how you are serving your miss mission, which is most of the reason why. Probably your team works for you right now. Bring it back to the mission. Yes. Frequent, I think. Frequent visits to the mission. Yeah, certainly in terms of new programs or new ideas that are bubbling because this is going to be a collaborative, contributing team, and they’re gonna have ideas, you know? Do they? That may be a great idea, but does it work within what were charged to do? Okay. All right. So we’re talking about a lot about meetings. I’m guessing you have some tips on running effective meetings. Efficient, productive. Happy meetings. Yes. Okay, let’s start with something that’s old friends of mine or the technology. Like the technology rules for meetings our phones allowed. Do you need Oh, my gosh. We only have two minutes left. Okay, uh, let’s do justice to tech rules for meetings. Okay? So I actually, I’m a millennial, so I am guilty of having all of my technology in the room when I’m doing meetings, but at the end of the day, as I’ve worked with people from different generations and different values as well. It doesn’t even have to be a generational thing. Those who do not allow technology in the meeting room, they have been much more productive. And it pains me as a millennial to say that, but it is absolutely true. Leave your laptop back there, leave your phone in your office because you’re their toe work together. And everyone in your meeting should have a reason that they’re there. They should be someone who is contributing to the meeting. Otherwise, they shouldn’t be invited, Um, or made to sit through something. So put the phones away and focus on what you’ve got there and use that collaborative creativity. Okay, Um, now I’ve heard there could be an exception. You know, uh, my my pet is in surgery for my son is in surgery or my dad is in surgery. No. So that could be exceptions for those you know, those kinds of cases, right? I see that. But also that is a weekly, a slippery slope. So here’s what I say. Yes, there are always emergencies, but let someone know for the next hour, they need to call the front office. Then they need to call this phone line. And if there is an actual emergency, your receptionist, your office manager will come in and get you. But if you’re talking about in an emergency, then you pick up that phone every five seconds to check it, and you’re getting out of the flow of that collaboration, okay? And then there’s also the slippery slope, you know? Well, she had her son, but I don’t have children, but I have a cat cats in surgery. My cat is just like a child to me. Exactly. It’s not right. All right. Next to becomes a pet spider than the turtle, you know, gets ridiculous. All right, All right, Nikki. Henry, we gotta leave it there. All right? Thank you, Tony. My pleasure. She’s the founder and CEO of Ladies Leading Ladies. You’ll find her at ladies. Underscore leading underscore and the lady’s leading ladies dot com. It’s time to take a break. Yes, it is. Indeed. Uh, Wagner, C p A’s. They’ve got a free webinar on August 6th. Developing high impact grants. Improve your grants, research and writing. You’ll find it at Wagner cps dot com. Click Resource Is and upcoming events. If you miss it live, then watch the archive. Wagner cps dot com Quick Resource is and recorded events makes perfect sense. Did I mess something up here? Pardon me? Yeah, but, uh, but I didn’t do Wagner. I’m I I did already. No, I didn’t. I think you messed me up. I’m blaming it on Sam because I don’t have any interns. If I have an intern, I’ve blamed the answer we need in turns into show. So I have somebody to blame when there’s a screw up. Like right now, I don’t have one, but it’s certainly not my fault. It couldn’t be so. It’s just that that’s outside the realm of its Not it’s inconceivable, and I don’t mean inconceivable, like uh, like they using conceivable in the Princess Bride. I mean, it is inconceivable, so it must be Sam’s fault. Thea Other thing. The other sponsor that we need to talk about is Cougar Mountain software. Maintaining separate accounts for each fund Ain’t a ning daily expenses reporting to the board, these air or all challenges that you face. That’s why Cougar Mountain created Denali Fund It’s your complete accounting solution specifically designed for non-profits. They have a 60 day free trial. You’ll find that at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m positive. Sam screwed me up here. I know he did. You left out a break. Okay, the, uh, 450th chauffeur non-profit radio. It’s next. Next week, For God’s sake, It’s July 26th. 2019 is coming up. What’s coming up on the two on the 450th show? Ninth anniversary. Been at this for nine years. 2010 giveaways. We’ve got your coffee giveaways, Of course. Kira is the coffee company that supports coffee growers and workers through providing dental care in the dental care like my voice was crackly. I’m 14. That’s how excited I get back your coffee. They provide dental care because the president of the company, the founder, is a dentist, but they provide dental care to coffee bead growers and workers. As you buy their coffee, you’re supporting that work that we’ve got giveaways from Cure a coffee. I’ll probably go away. Some books from the library, the non-profit Video Library where authors have given me multiple copies of books and What I’ve Got. Live music. Scott Stein, of course. Scott Stein from Brooklyn, who plays are, will play our theme song Complete Cheap Red Wine You Played Completely Through. And then, of course, we’ll count on him to play another song as well. And he’ll be here with this keyboard. Clear Myer. Half our creative producer is gonna be in town. Um, we got all the regular contributors calling in Aimee Semple Ward, Jean Takagi and, of course, Maria Semple. They’ll all call in. We’re welcoming new sponsors. You have heard a couple of shows with them already, but we’re going to formally welcome Cougar Mountain and turn to Communications as our new sponsor. So there’s a shitload going on. Um, and I can say that because my show what I could do, whatever the hell I want. You don’t like it? You’re not gonna stop listening. I mean, well, I mean, you could, but the odds of you doing it just cause I said shit one time so small, it’s it’s inconceivable. So there’s a shitload going on. Be with us for July 26 next week, the 450th show. There’s more on my video out. Could you imagine I could be any more to say on this topic, but watch the video anyway. The video is that tony martignetti dot com and I recorded it in my car. So Zwart watching for that reason since that makes. But let’s do the live listen to love. Ah, there’s a ton of it. Oh, yes, Sam the noisy eh commission. I think that Sam is really screwing up today. You forgot to turn the air conditioner off with my mike. Went live. Now you hear it. See how much quieter is now? That’s because there’s no air conditioning. You heard the buzz. You didn’t know what it was that you really all right. I’m not paying for this week’s show, All right? The live. Listen, love. Where the hell is it? We got listeners in. At least we had. We may have just left in the past three minutes, but we had a few minutes ago. Listeners in Rochester, New York, Tampa, Florida Irving, Texas Washington, D. C. Newburgh New broke New York. I love that straight up, right up the Hudson River. A little bit not upstate New Yorkers. New York City but I don’t live here anymore, so I don’t consider it upstate. Newberg. Welcome. Live love to you. Multiple New York, New York. Um, where else we got? Seoul, South Korea. Loved one soul checks in annual haserot comes a ham Nida Tokyo is with us very loyal. Also very loyal listeners in Tokyo Konnichi wa Beijing Beijing is with us equally loyal Ni hao to our Beijing listeners live love there. Moscow, Russia. That’s a pretty frequent Dublin Ireland. Not sure you’ve been with us before. Um, welcome. I’ve love to Ah, to Dublin. Um And there’s another sheet I left out a whole bunch of sheet coming back here. Alexandria, Virginia. We got listeners live love there, but then going abroad again. Oh, another South Korea yon yon gene or young in South Korea. Also on your haserot Too young Jean Athens, Greece. Welcome. I think that’s new. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Live love to you and Afghanistan. Herat, Afghanistan. I know. That’s first time. I’m so glad you’re with us. Afghanistan. Live love to you and the podcast Pleasantries. They got to go out because it’s over 13,000. You know eso whatever time zone you are, in whatever device you’re listening on pleasantries to you. I’m grateful that you’re with us. I’m grateful the show continues to grow. Uh, I can’t say Week after week grows every single week, but month after month year, the trending is up. So it’s all good. That’s that’s very positive. Pleasantries toe our podcast, listeners all right after that raving ranting. It’s ridiculous. I’m not. Whitney Raver should probably hung up. She was on the phone. If she’s still with us, she’s our next guest on, and I’m pleased to welcome her, Assuming she’s with me. She is the founder and chief development strategist at What’s the word? That’s a growth acceleration agency focused on amplifying non-profit impact. She teaches how to use stories to build trust and raving loyalty among donors. I’m starting to ratchet it down now. I have to have a conversation with Whitney, for God’s sake, get piela linked a woman she and the company are both at What’s the world inc dot com and at oh, what I said, No, that’s not it. It’s what’s the word? Inc dot com? Pardon me, What’s the word? Inc dot com and at what’s the word Inc Welcome to the show. Whitney River. Are you still there? I am here. Who could leave that performance? I can think of a lot of people. My mom for number one and my dad, but they don’t listen to begin with. So that turned them off years ago. Um, welcome. It’s good to have you. You are calling from the Black hills of South Dakota. That’s awesome. That’s way West. You got Mount Rushmore, Badlands National Park. That’s a beautiful part of our country. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I’m 20 minutes away from the most beautiful national mom in the world. And of course, I live smack dab in the middle of four. So I’m surrounded by the most beautiful hills in the world, I think, but at least you might be biased. Like, you know, New Yorkers think it’s the center of the world. But you deserve to think highly of the black hills. So, um what? So you have what are some of the monuments there that you have? So we have not rushmore. That’s about 20 minutes away from my house. We have, like, he said, Badlands. The Black Hills are a national monument, and then we have. My personal favorite is the crazy Horse Memorial has been works there and their longtime friends of his family, and it’s just up. They’re carving a giant mountain buy-in into, you know, putting over the Black Hills. And it’s just incredible to see they’re carving the carving crazy horse into the side of a mountain like Mount Rushmore into hyre Mountain. It’ll be, um, 3 60 It’ll be an entire mountain, not just one face of it. So Mount Rushmore will be will be minimal. Minimize is minimal compared to this 360 degrees. What kind of project? How long does that latto many years? Does that take? Oh, it’s you know, they’re expecting It’ll be done in about 60 years the last time I checked. Plus, they’re also very because they’ve gotten a few new drill and technology has come along. The founder cortex Socolovsky was carrying his jack up the mountain and doing it by hand. It may take 60 years. You cut out a little bit there, but 60 years, you’re incredibly patient in South Dakota, you have to finish that thing in like, 20 minutes. Here in New York, we just start trampling on it or somebody would steal it or Or graffiti it, Uh, maybe 1/2 an hour. Give it. But 60 years. Damn, you have. Um I have a lot of patients I also love. You know, you have that enormous space, South Dakota. And there’s about 800,000 people who live there. Brittney, did you turn me off? Oh, we didn’t turn you off. Okay, You have 100,000 people. I mean, we have We have 8,000,000 in a little island here. Uh, I don’t know what the dimensions are, but it’s got to be, like 1 10/1000 the size of South Dakota. And we have 8,000,000 8 and 1/2 about 9,000,000 or something like that. You have 800,000 in the whole freakin state. That’s incredible. It’s another person. Yeah. Yeah, well, you’re surrounded by a forest. All right. Um, okay, enough geography, but thank you. We never had having had a call from South Dakota. Our guest from South Dakota. So, um, so, uh, this topic of failures little personal for you because you ran for the for the South Dakota House of Representatives. As did it. It didn’t go so Well. Well, yes. No. And we can absolutely talk about way. Are we talking about it right now? What do you mean? We can We are. We’re doing it. Let’s start no more about it than I do so well in that I did not win. Um, I mean, ballots were cast, and I end up going to appear, which, you know, broke my heart. But I did my job. I served three and gave my neighbors a choice. Okay, but what I feel really right was, um, in speeches and to be going in and e-giving a perspective, an opportunity to think of things in a way that they have never Ben exposed to before had just results. And I tell you what, I got dozens of phone calls, and in the days and weeks after that election from people who just said, Gosh, I just wish I had voted for you. What? Why didn’t he? Hey, so if I do it again, it might be a whole new conversation. Okay, but what came out of that, uh, that, uh I had to say that failure, That that lack of success I don’t know. I mean, we could use the word failure. The cell, The second is about failure. Look what came out of that. Would you learn from that failure that informs your your, uh, don’t fear your failure practice really? That people have to be spoken to. You know, I feel like it was closer to my community that the constituents in this district actually trusted. Or after after I had failed and gone back into them and and, you know, um, we’re we’re still in this together. You can still count on me saying that I have had promised Call me email me. Here’s my social media and where no one really did before while I was right, I still get plenty tons of e mails and phone calls all the time. You know, we need a brave voice for this issue. Would you mind keeping us in this capacity? So even though I failed, I think that because I was so open with it and because I was so accepting of it, I really have done a lot more to earn the trust of my community, simply running an offering to take that position. Okay, Awesome. And, uh, we’re gonna go take our first break. And when we come back, that’s a perfect transition. Cause you want, um, you want non-profits toe earn The trust of folks are well, we’ll continue with that. After we take this very short break Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories and help you build support, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. This is all of what turned to does. They’re at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’ve got butt loads, more time for the power of failure and Whitney River Whitney. So what is this trust That, uh, I mean, it’s I think it’s implicit buy-in non-profit relationships, but we want to talk about it explicitly, asking for trust and building trust. How do you feel that sharing your failures helps? Helps that I want nick down the importance of trust non-profits all over staying a decline in donorsearch ship and e-giving, and it’s really it’s their capacity for impact. And one of the reasons for that is because you were then 20% of potential donors trust organization, and there is a wide range of reasons for that. We as non-profits and as impact creators view the world is it could be has to do a better job of not just vacating our vision but bringing people in on that vision. And that requires a more three dimensional story, um, or hope, view of our And that includes sharing her, sharing our failures. Yeah, um, listeners, I know that Whitney is cutting out a little bit. It’s it’s something in the phone. But we’re pretty sure that if even if she calls back, it’s not gonna make a difference of Whitney. I may ask like I’m a repeat. Something that I I think you’ve said or I asked you to repeat something. Okay, because you’re cutting out a little bit. I think it may help, though, if you speak louder. Okay. Okay. Um, all right. So yeah. I mean, this is this is, uh, consistent with what we know about personal relationships, right? I mean, if to build trust with I don’t know, a spouse, a friend, you know, you you share and and just over time, I mean, you don’t want to share the good things that you share. What’s what’s happening in your life, and it’s not all good. And over time that the people you’re sharing with feel that they’ve been brought into your you brought them into your confidence. Great. You pick each other up and buy a shared your failures and kind of throwing your bungles out there. You give your community a chance, your hero. You tend to take it as a non-profit, the place of the hero in the grand story. And if you read Donald Miller Story brand, you know that Really, Um the odd wants to be the hero. And by sharing your failures and giving them a chance t and help you as part of you, you really give them the opportunity to the hero in that story. And that’s one of the ways you you gain trust and and buy-in. Okay, I’m not clear on something. Uh, making someone the hero of the story could flush that abila more sure to be sure to talk. So, as a nonprofit organization, you you tend to be the hero in the grand scheme of your vision. You are connecting and volunteers to your beneficiaries to serve your mission and the role of donor or volunteers can’t sometimes be inadequately highlighted. The people who stand on the sidelines wondering whether or not they should get of their time or their money are there. They’re looking for some reprieve and by giving them an opportunity to serve you first as xero. So to speak, in the story outline of communication, you give them the opportunity to feel like they’re really important to you and therefore to the mission. Okay, so making your donors and volunteers and Central Central to the story. Great. Okay. Okay. Um, have you seen this? Ah, have you seen examples of this? Any stories you can share that you think I’ve been done? Well, certainly. We’ll tell you about the startup that we’re working with right now. It’s high altitude training. And these these books have an incredible mission. It’s a group of elite long distance athletes who have together to show how sustainable living is the road, who meeting our highest human potential. And they they’re promoting sustainable living practices and agriculture and energy, and they’re using their competition to show to build a community around these ideas. Obviously, as an athlete, you can’t show up and take every time every time you raised rape. Yeah, So we have to make sure that our community and we’re building a wide, um, community of donor sponsors, volunteer participants. That community needs to be with us, and you stand that, You know, we may come in 10 but that is not any less important to our mission. We have to be able to show them how every every failure, every pore, placement, every station is an opportunity to refine our actions and refined and learn more about the lifestyle that we’re trying eat and how to become better at it on dhe. How do they do? They or generally are you recommending, you know, like coming out, right? Like asking for trust Or this is just something that you build implicitly. You know, Bo, what’s it? For the most part, I’ll go back to Tiu Thio, you know, shit. Like my marriage, for instance, my husband and I just celebrated 12 years, and, um, when we when we first started dating, I adamantly against marriage or any, you know, major commitment. Because I didn’t have that kind of trust. And I think a lot of people can relate to that over time. You, you you you work other, you fail together, you grow together and you realize that we’re We’re in this together. You’re important. I’m important. We have to come together to to serve the school. Did you? Yeah. It does make sense. Um, you start by by by sharing. You start by moving it. Build enough of a background you do You turn to them and ask them. Trust me. Don’t need volunteer. Give speak. But in order to make that request valid, you want to spend your time building that relationship and half of half of it is testing. The other half is failure. Yeah, well, it doesn’t have to be 50 50. I mean, you could we could be a little more optimistic. Make it like 60 40 right? Failure, success to failure. And let s oblique is just, like half, but, you know, out there in South Dakota, please, Ideally, it doesn’t come up very often, but when it does, you know you don’t want to You don’t be the ones behind behind the eight ball, you know you want you want to get well, for instance, you know, this is kind of a political topic, but the, um, fiasco in Florida with the Florida charity. Um, they were in a position to receive a station from a questionable fund raiser. Um, you know, as soon as it hit the public act out and there there were two ways to go about handled situation and positioning yourself in that situation. And when we when we come up against, um, situations like that very, You know, 1/3 party may not a lot or best interest in mind, but their actions may not align with our mission. Our vic gold. We take a stand, and instead of receding into the you want to stand up and explain, you know where you are in the story, how you responded, how your response reflect on mission in values and division so that that story isn’t written by someone else. What about selecting the right failures to talk about? I can envision some that you shouldn’t, but let’s let’s put aside the ones that are that are public, and then, you know you have to you have to share. But, uh, you know, there’s some things that you might be a might be a bad hyre or something. I mean, what what types of failures. Would we include or not? Include? Okay, So, like you said some just public And you know, if it’s if it’s going to take off in the media, you definitely want to get that. Yeah, of course. But others include white fun galas. Think things like that where maybe you don’t have the amount that you were hoping for. Yeah, you know, a lot of organizations. What they’ll do is they’ll take their attendees and squeeze them into a little ball and take a picture to make it look like they’re 100. And they’ll put that story out and, you know, talk about the great turn and everything that was accomplished. But we still need you to donate really hard on trust. The messaging doesn’t align. Whether or not your audience really puts the time into unraveling that they know they know that there’s something off and that hurts their trust. What would How would you message it instead? Um, I would mess. It’s typically about like, uh, on event. I was humorously like, Wow, we really bumbled that one. We scheduled this during this other events. Too bad we’re not that popular, you know. But since that we need you guys to show up in this capacity instead. Okay? And you feel like this is something, by the way, we just have about two minutes left. You feel like this is a way, a way to move forward in 2019 and ahead. You see this as an important future trend or current trend and just increasing Absolutely Whether or not, um, the Internet and having you know, all of the station of ages in the pub wolber hand has forced us to be transparent as a non-profit. You are complete both. So you might as well work with that to build a station ship run with it. There are great organizations like charity. My gosh, I’m so gaga over charity water. I’ve never seen such such bold. And I mean almost surreal transparency. And that’s that’s the standard that donors want and need to see any. Yeah. Um, yeah, there’s a video I remember seeing charity water scum. Scott Harrison. The CEO is standing in front of a well that failed in. They do their work in Africa. I don’t remember what countries in but the well collapsed and he said, We’ll be back. We’ll be back And I’m sure I’m sure he sure they did go back. Um Okay. Whitney River. We’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you. You’re welcome. It’s a founder and chief development strategist at what’s the word? What’s the word? Inc dot com and at what’s the word Inc. Next week you heard all about it. It’s the 4 50 If if you don’t. If you don’t remember what next week’s show was about, you need to tune out. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com actually already turned out. If you don’t, if you don’t know what the 4 50 it is, you’re already out. Responsive by Wagner, c. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witnessed gps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyer off. She’ll be in the studio next week. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer is screwed up today. Social shows, Social media is by Susan Chavez. She’s safe. She’s out in California. No guilt there. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. He’s fine. And this music is by Scott Stein, who will also be in the studio next week. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% complete. Turn the air conditioning on. It’s sweltering in here. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential. Live Life, Your Way on talk radio dot N Y C on the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and the small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Friday’s 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Weakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting 24 hours a day. Do you love or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe, it’s feel and its energy tune and live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio dahna, you’re listening to the Talking Alternative network

Cracking the Books on Failure & Shortcomings

Businessman with face pressed against wall, profile, close-up

I recently have seen charities willing to disclose outcomes that are less than flattering, and I applaud them. I hope it’s the beginning of a trend. I wonder if it grows out of the pressure from regulators for mandatory transparency and increased accountability from the sector.

My awareness was first raised by Stephanie Strom’s coverage of FailureFaire, sponsored by The World Bank. Charity:water’s video “Live Drill: It Doesn’t Always Work,” about a failed project in Central African Republic came to me shortly after, as did the Case Foundation blog post “The Painful Acknowledgement of Coming Up Short.”

Ms. Strom and I discussed openness about failure on the August 27th broadcast of Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. As she explained, it’s been almost unheard of among nonprofits, probably because they fear a donor backlash. Presumably, the conventional wisdom goes, no donor (or donor nation) wants their name and money associated with an unsuccessful outcome. But no less than The World Bank and Case have gone very public. The charity:water video was a celebration of its fourth anniversary.

Not all disclosures are willing and voluntary. The Seattle Foundation website now discloses its data and research on almost 700 local charities, in a user-friendly format. It’s open to any visitor to their Giving Center without registration.

I see simple honesty and I admire it. I hope we see more of it. I have faith in donors and I believe the vast majority will accept a straightforward outcomes assessment that is accompanied by a sensible plan for what to do next.

Broken Link in Chain

Charity:water has long been recognized for its culture of accountability, but its video nearly boasts about the trying failure–as CEO Harrison assures donors the quest for clean water in that village will continue. As the title hints, Jean Case’s post is a refreshingly heartfelt account of how, “Reality doesn’t always play out like the business plan calls for.”

I think a lot about regulatory oversight and there’s no question charities face a considerable amount brought on by federal and state authorities. We have the intense IRS Form 990; the Red Flags Rule from the Federal Trade Commission; state privacy protection laws; state charitable gift annuity regulations; and state Charity Registration requirements for solicitations, to name but a few.

Meanwhile, watchdog groups like Charity Navigator and Better Business Bureau Wise Giving Alliance are revamping their analyses and a few, including GuideStar, may standardize their reporting format, as reported by The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Many nonprofits adjust practices to achieve high ratings or “approved” status.

Might our culture of involuntary disclosure and forced accountability be stimulating charities to voluntarily trumpet shortcomings?

Failure IS an Option, So Let’s Talk

Dictionary Definition Of Failure On White Page

I love last week’s New York Times piece by Stephanie Strom, “Nonprofits Review Technology Failures.”  The essential message is that nonprofits will suffer failures, and the charity community is wise to learn from them.

I’ve written about the corporatization of nonprofits, which includes donor expectations of outcome measurements (just as shareholders expect of companies).  If your nonprofit wants to comply with donor demands, it is going to have to admit its grand failures alongside handsome successes.

Transparency and evaluation of outcomes means all outcomes, not just the good ones.  Insufficient programming, unforeseen consequences, underfunding, overstaffing, failed assumptions.  Let’s talk about them all, so everyone can learn to avoid repeats.

Your donor investors and those whose lives you improve deserve an honest outcomes dialogue.  They will benefit.  So will the larger nonprofit community.

The $64,000 Question is whether donors will take the news of unsatisfactory results well.

On Friday, August 27th, Stephanie Strom will be my guest on Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio and we’ll talk about her article and its implications.

Nonprofit Radio for August 27, 2010: Topic Trifecta: Nonprofits Facing Failures, Board Responsibilities, and Back-of-House Cleanup

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

You can subscribe on iTunes and listen anytime, anyplace on the device of your choice.

Tony’s Guests:

Stephanie Strom, NY Times reporter, discussing nonprofits facing failures.

Gene Takagi, Esq., Nonprofit legal consultant, discussing board responsibilities.

Ken Cerini, CPA, Cerini & Associates LLP, discussing back-of-house cleanup.

There will be a link to the podcast posted here after the show.

This Friday from 1-2pm this week and every week!

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You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.

If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

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No hello and welcome, i’m tony martignetti, the aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’re small and midsize non-profit has a home here at tony martignetti non-profit radio last week we put the focus on you as an individual, and we had a lot of tips for tuning up your retirement planning, and the focus was on you. This week, we’re bringing the focus back to your non-profit my first guest after the break is going to be stephanie strong reporter for the new york times, and we’re going to be talking about failure fair that was a program sponsored by the world bank. Should you be talking about mistakes and failures that your organization makes it’s good enough for the world bank? I’ll talk to stephanie about her recent piece in the times and after stephanie, i’ll be joined by ken cerini, managing partner of cerini and associates. We’re going to talk about financial freedom for your non-profit and the potential loss of non-profits status for those small organizations, and after ken, i’ll be joined by jean takagi on attorney for non-profits gene’s going to share techniques to keep your board on board and keep your board out of trouble. All that this afternoon on tony martignetti non-profit radio. Stay with us for others. Break. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set two one, two nine six, four, three, five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com dahna welcome back. I’m tony martignetti, the host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. I’m joined now by stephanie strong reporter for the new york times, she’s, the non-profit beat reporter for the times stephanie thank you very much for joining me in the studio. Thank you, tony, for inviting me. On august sixteenth, you had on article that was titled non-profits review technology failures and you were covering something called fail fair that was sponsored by the world bank. Sounds like it was fun. What thomas about fail fair well, feel there it’s actually a gn event that was cooked up by an organization called mobile active, which is a network of non-profits working to use technology to bring social benefits primarily internationally, but also locally it’s. How do we use thie gadgets that all of us have in our lives to make the lives of the poor and the needy better? And the world bank had been to the first of these events in new york, and it decided it would be fun to have one in washington in its offices. Because the world bank certainly has a lot of failures to share. It’s it’s got a new transparency policy. And it thought this would be a great way to advance that, and it was a very fun event because it’s done is a cocktail party type of event. So people are very relaxed presenters make a presentation of an example of a failure or several examples of a failure of technology to deliver the social goods that people western aid or non-profit agencies would have expected. And the idea is that by doing this in a very relaxed setting, people will accept the the story of the failure and maybe take away some lessons from it that they can then apply to their own work so that they don’t make the same mistakes. Were there other participants there besides the world bank? Yes, i would say about half of the presenters were world bank employees, and the other half came from a wide variety of different types of organizations. Some of them were consultants that had done research. Some of them were actual employees of the organizations. What was one of the failures that sticks out in your mind as memorable? Well, the one that that i discussed in the story at the top of the story was one. That really sort of crystallized it. Several years ago, the ah telephone company in guiana, i decided that as a gesture of corporate so what we would call corporate social philanthropy, whose social responsibility it would set up a telecom center in a very remote part of the amazon, and a group of very enterprising women who probably had never used a telephone figured out that they could sell these beautiful woven hammocks that they make over the internet. They developed quite an international market for these things and ended up collecting about seventeen thousand dollars. Well, this upset thie traditional power structure, which was male dominant and their husbands literally pulled the plug on the darn thing and said, no more selling over the internet. We don’t like this thing forget it, and that was the end of that. So in that case, it was the husband’s not donors to the program, but husbands that pulled the plug husbands, village elders, men on the lesson there was that there was an upset to the culture that right? The lesson was that if you’re going, you know, one of the presenters said it, you’re much more eloquently than i can. But that we often go in expecting technology. We technology works in our culture because our culture has adopted it, embraced it, developed it. But when we kind of just plop it down willy nilly in another culture and anticipate that it will work the same way that it does in ours, we often run into trouble admitting mistakes. Then you said the world bank has a policy of openness and transparency about their their failures, their mistakes. This is not something that we typically see in the larger non-profit community, right? Well, the world bank, i think back in april adopted it’s really a data transparency policy, but data, of course is going to show you mistakes. So this is all part of trying to be more open sharing. What we know what we’ve learned with everyone, so that people don’t make it again don’t make the same mistakes, learn something from it non-profits are reluctant to discuss failure, i have found because they don’t necessarily want to discourage donors. Donors may not look att a failure as a learning experience donors may look at it is ah, why would i give money to this organization that failed in this programme or in this way and that really is the sixty four thousand dollar question, i think how our donor is going to react to their money, having been devoted to something that didn’t have the outcomes we want. Well, i think most donors prefer, of course, that there money go towards things that bring benefit, but i also think that there are, at least among sophisticated donors, donors who understand that sometimes things don’t work out many of the wealthiest donors today. Our guys who became wealthy because of venture capital and in venture capital, of course, for every huge success, like ebay, they’re a ten or twenty failures, and they’re accustomed to evaluating those failures. So our hope is that that will translate to they’re giving to non-profits that’s, right? That’s the community’s hope stephanie strahm’s article on august sixteenth was online non-profits review technology failures. You can follow stephanie on twitter’s. Her idea berries at s s strahm. I follow her, she follows me. Thank you for that. And i’m very grateful that her coverage brought us. Brought her to the studio today. Thank you very much. Definite. Thank you, tony. We’ll be back after this. Break with ken cerini and we’ll be talking about keeping your non-profit out of trouble. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio getting ending. Duitz e-giving ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network waiting to get in. Cubine hi, i’m new york state senator joe a dabo. I will be hosting a Job fair on friday, november 12 and aqueduct racetrack in queens, contending into three p m, we will have over one hundred companies looking for qualified workers. They’re all to be lectures on jobs, try to jeez and networking. So come and bring plenty of resumes and join me on friday, november twelve at aqueduct racetrack for a Job fair 10AM2 three p m. For more information, please call pete in my district office at seven one eight seven three eight one one one one. I really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine two nine. Zero or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Cerini are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network duitz geever this is the talking alternative network. I’m tony martignetti, the host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. My guest now is ken cerini ken is managing partner at cerini in associates, which is an accounting audit and management consulting firm. Ken has an impressive array of acronyms following his name. Ken is a c p, a of course certified public accountant, also cfp, certified financial planner and d a b f a diplomat of the american board of forensic accountants a diplomat. I’m going to ask him if that comes with parking privileges in new york city, i’d like to have his license plates if it does, ken has a lot of experience working with large, publicly traded companies, small, closely held companies and, of course, non-profits both at his firm cerini in associates and also at ernst in young cerini in associates does ah lot of strategic and management consulting, which includes budget and cash flow analysis, contract reviews, compensation reviews and negotiated settlements with government agencies, and i’m very glad that ken’s work brings him to the show today can cerini welcome thanks for having my pleasure, small and medium non-profits are facing something now with the i r s their potential loss of tax exempt status if they haven’t filed their nine ninety lately, can you help us explain what’s going on there? Sure, sure, no problem what happened back in prior to two thousand seven non-profit organizations that generated under twenty five thousand dollars worth of annual revenue, we’re really not required to file tax returns basically, if they were smaller organizations, the government don’t don’t bother filing it would take too much paperwork and everything else to do these filings over the years. So the number of non-profits that have built up on the irs system has grown to be tremendous levels and toe manage that database it’s costing the irs a tremendous amount of money. There’s something like one point two or one point, three million non-profits now is that right? Very, very large, and a large percentage of those are under that twenty five thousand dollars threshold, right? Or very close to it very, very large percentage here in new york, which is where i’m from the the number of non-profits generating under a million dollars worth of annual revenue is probably close to about forty percent of the total non-profits yes, most non-profits that exist out there are smaller non-profit organization and that’s, exactly consistent with what i see on charity navigator statistics that the same forty percent number forty percent of the non-profits generating very low, sort of low levels, mid to low levels of revenue, but so i’m sorry. Go ahead, please consider what i’m saying. So then, in two thousand seven, the ira said in order for us to really gain an understanding of which of these non-profits are still in existence, or maybe some of these non-profits don’t really exist anymore. They set up a new finally requirement, which is really just a you know, one of those i am here type filings where it’s a postcard enough for nine ninety end that you just file electronically to let the government know that you’re still in existence and you’re still functioning as a non profit organization and that literally is a postcard that xero it’s for all practical purposes. Yes, it’s about three or four questions, and you’re done so the irs and again get filed electronically. So the irs said, if we don’t hear from you for your two thousand seven filing your two thousand eight filing into two thousand nine filing, we’re going to automatically assume that you no longer exist as a non profit organization, and we’re going to terminate your tax exempt status. So this is a problem that many non-profit organizations find themselves in right now because all along they’ve never had to do any sort of filing, and then the rules changed three years ago, and now they’re being asked to file even though it’s very simplistic there were being asked to file some level of filing and if they don’t know about it and they’re not following the changes in the iris regulations it’s possible that on, unbeknownst to them, they get terminated as a non profit organization and they no longer exist. Yes, and we’re talking about the smallest organizations that are apt to not have the expertise that tracks, you know, new irs regulations, new being back in two thousand seven, typical typically, these organizations from the rely heavily upon volunteers, so they’re using a lot of their board of directors are probably unsophisticated, you know, they’re focused on, um, the core mission and really minor activities that they’re doing, and they’re really not focusing on, you know, the changes. That are happening out there in the irs. So what can an organization due to find out if it’s at risk and then be if it is, how could they get into compliance? The irs has a if you go to irs dot gov, which is the irises website, and you look up exempt organizations, the irs has the listing of those organizations as of june thirtieth that had not yet filed um and it’s broken out by state and in new york state alone, there’s twenty one thousand five hundred seventy eight non-profits on this list and that is the list of organizations at risk of automatic rev a gate revocation of tax exempt status that’s the heading on that page yet that’s correct. Okay, the’s the once and again the hasn’t been updated far as i know since june thirtieth, so this is a little outdated, so on organization, who has recently filed may find themselves on this list, but they need to understand that that’s because the information is as of june thirtieth, organizations that are december thirty first year and filers have until october fifteenth to come in compliance if they don’t come into compliance by october fifteenth and that’s actually an extended it was originally made fifteen from the irs gave organizations in additional time frame till october fifteenth, but if they don’t come into compliance by october fifteenth, they are going to lose their epic and they’re going to have their exams are exempt organizations revoked. I think iris was concerned about what was gonna happen with that original date and there was a fair amount of popular press leading up to that date, but still the vast majority of organizations didn’t take advantage of coming into compliance, so they think they were sort of forced to extend it lest i don’t know many hundreds of thousands of organisations lose their status on dh again. The answer may be that many of these organizations are not functioning any more. I have ceased to function over the years and, you know, losing their exempt status is not a big deal, but i’m sure looking on the list. There are some organizations that are still functioning on dh you really have no idea that this is happening and really stand to be in a position where you know they find themselves on october sixteenth, they’re exempt. Status is gone and they could be putting donors at risk. They could be put in the organization of risk, their board at risk and everything else. My guest is ken cerini, managing partner of cerini and associates. We are live today taking your calls. The calling number is eight, seven, seven, four, eight, zero, forty one, twenty eight, seven, seven, forty xero forty one twenty. Now, if you were listening to the divorce our with larry bloom right before the show you heard larry say that this was our first live show, but larry’s show was an archive edition pre recorded the so we’ve had a plethora three live shows that i believe this is our third life show. So don’t be don’t be discouraged whether it’s our first or third or really is many, many more which it’s not please call in if you have questions at eight seven seven for a tow forty one twenty can how is the recession that we are still in the midst of affecting smaller organizations in terms of especially, i think, in terms of cash flow, i think what you find out there that most non-profit organizations, if you think about the economy there more people out of work there are businesses are not doing as well. So there’s less money flowing to the non profit sector. We see out there that the the amount of contributions and fund-raising going to the non profit sector is down somewhere in the twenty five to thirty percent range and has been over the last probably a year and a half. So you know, you’ve got these organizations that are receiving much less money than what they’re used teo and what we find on, i think it’s kind of born out across the country is that the number one funding source for nonprofit organizations is government grants is probably number one and number two, especially for the smaller organizations, contributions and fund-raising so organizations rely very, very heavily upon these government grants coming in, and they rely extremely heavily upon the contribution income that’s coming in. So when that income is down twenty five, thirty percent there’s going to be much more of an onus on the government grants and making sure that that government funding is flowing on a regular basis? Yes, but that let me just say much more focused on the need for the government grant about going in so that that that helps the buoy are both of the cash flow that they have and all happening. One of the quick comment before i get back to that you’re in a situation where, especially in the health and welfare type organizations that provide benefits to two people, the fact that there’s ah hyre level of unemployment there’s a higher level of stress and people’s lives, people are turning mohr towards alcohol, drugs, things like that because of the stresses in their lives. Um, you’re in a situation where the level of need for service treyz up, so you’ve got increasing level of need for service, and he’s got a decrease in the funding that’s coming in, and then, as i mentioned before, so they’re relying more heavily on government funding. Now, one of the problems that you have is, you know, in this environment that we find ourselves in, not only is it that the individuals and businesses are having cash flow constraints and problems, but the government is having some issues too, so the government has been cutting back on some of the funding that it’s done on top. Of that, the government, because they have been able to get their budgets passed because again, strains on cash flow at the government level has also slowed down the payments that they’re making to the non profit sector, which is kind of adding to the problem. So you’ve got non-profit organizations, they’re seeing decreases and funding to begin with and then on top of it, the government funding which is supposed to be, you know, that constant that rock that’s there on on an annual basis is either starting to dry up a little or or is taking longer to get in the doors on it’s, creating all sorts of cash flow issues for the housing sector. And what are you counseling your clients who are find themselves in this situation? What organizations really need to do it, it’s all about communication? I mean, i think communication is something that’s extremely important, so it really comes back down to communication. A lot of these organizations need to go out and talk to their their banks and developed banking relationships early on in the process, you know, they need to make sure that the banks understand that the money will be there, it’s, just a matter of time. You know, banks are starting to look at the non-profits and they’re they’re receivables of the nonprofit organizations are aging at a little further than they normally would be, which makes the non-profit look like they’re less bankable, so just explain that a little bit. Why is why isn’t an aged receivable less less appealing to a bank or less bankable? Because when a bank looks at a nonprofit organizations receivables, they’re looking at it in terms of our these receivables collectible, and typically what happens is the older reese thie older receivable is the less likely that an organization is going to collect that people usually receivables once they start aging out usually means that maybe there’s something wrong with that receivable and that’s. Why the money hasn’t come in yet unfortunately, in today’s environment, that’s not always because the receivable is not a good one. Ah lot of times, it’s, because, you know the cash flows constraints that the governmental agencies air having again here in new york, it took a long time to get the budget passed, and since the budget wasn’t passed on a timely basis, they were delays. In getting contract signed because the contracts were delayed in getting signed. It was delays in getting the money out to non-profit organizations. And it becomes, you know, this this domino effect and a lot of organizations were left there trying to figure out, how am i gonna pay my payroll? So even though the ah the entity that owes the money is is a government agency, the bank still looks at that as, ah less likely to be received. Um, i again and i think that’s where it comes into that communication piece where non-profit organizations need to be able to go to the bank and say, hey, look, here’s what’s happening out there in the marketplace, we have government grants, those government grants are going to come in here’s the signed contract, we’re going to get the money even though it’s been aged out more than typical krauz maybe the bank is used to seeing the non-profit collect the money in sixty to ninety days and now it’s one hundred twenty hundred fifty days out by having that communication by developing that that strong, open communication line with the banker that you’re working with, it really can help. To ensure that the the lines of credit in the cash flow continue to flow into the nonprofit organization while the organization is waiting for government grants to free up. And when you talk about aged, is that you mentioned a hundred twenty, one hundred fifty days is that roughly the time at which ah ah, bank or other agents potential credit agency is likely to start calling these receivables aged? Is that roughly the time frame? Somewhere in that range, when you start getting toe one hundred twenty hundred, fifty hundred eighty becomes a lot less attractive. Typically, banks like to see the money collected it within ninety days, and for the most part, most non-profits really should collect their money within a ninety day period of time, especially when they’re relying heavily upon service government type money again, unfortunately, in today’s economy, that’s not happening, so banks would be open to this kind of a conversation. I mean, this sounds a lot like the advice for here in the popular press if you’re having trouble with your mortgage that you should pick up the phone and call the lender. So in this case, banks are willing to have this kind of a conversation, i mean, they’ll they’ll take this kind of a call, you have what you have a relationship already with the bank it’s been, you know, you’ve had that relationship for a period of time, the bank’s really from a working with a nonprofit sector, the banks really don’t want to pull loans from non-profits it really doesn’t look good for them either on dh banks get credits working with the non profit sector, so it is a positive that the banks want to work with sector, so they just want to know that their loan is going to be a good loan and that you know, that there’s, rational and reasons behind what’s taking place. And if you open up those lines of communication and they’re going to be much more responsive than if you just send them something and say we need more money and cannon just the forty five seconds or so we have before a break, are you finding that non-profits or doing this, or are they mohr sort of staying in their shell and just maybe cowering? I don’t think they’re doing it as much as they should. That’s not to. Say that they’re not doing it. It just i always believed that in business you need to be very proactive in your approach to dealing with professionals that you work with and that you need to reach out and keep those lines of communication open. Because if you don’t, then problems can occur. If you do then everybody’s on the same page, and at least you know if the bank is going to have a problem with it, you know, up front, you know you need to seek alternative. So the tip really is. Pick up the phone, talk to your banker when you before you start to see a problem and head off the head off a potential crisis in cash flow. My guest is ken cerini. We’re going to take a break, and when ken returns with us, we’ll talk a little about his work in compensation reviews and maybe some excess compensation problems. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m new york state senator joe a dabo. I will be hosting a Job fair on friday, november 12 and aqueduct racetrack in queens, contending into three p m we will have over one hundred companies looking for qualified workers. They’re all to be lectures on jobs, try to jeez and networking. So come and bring plenty of resumes and join me on friday, november twelve at aqueduct racetrack for a Job fair from 10 a m to three p m. For more information, please call pete in my district office at seven one eight seven three eight one one one one. Oppcoll are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com pompel i’m tony martignetti my guest is ken cerini managing partner of cerini and associates can if someone would like to contact you, how is the best way to do that? I could be reached either by email, which is can see at cerini and associates dot com all spelled out d e r i and i a nd associates dot com or by phone six, three, one, five eight, sixteen hundred and my extension in thank you and the cerini and associates website is www dot cerini c e r n i a nd associates dot com can. There has been a fair amount of popular press about excessive compensation for ceos and other sea level people at at non-profits part of your work is compensation reviews what i’d like to spend the remaining time few minutes we have talking about how a non-profit can determine whether they’re in paying excessive compensation. The irs has established some rules regarding excessive compensation under internal revenue code section forty nine fifty eight, which deals with what’s known as intermediate sanctions. So really, what the irs came out and said, and this this was a result of some of the abuses that happened. Back in the late nineties, where the irs said, you know, we can’t really take away a non-profits exempt status if they if they are over paying their executive director, so what we’re gonna do is we’re going toe charge penalties to both the executive director and any board members who knowingly participate in that overpayment on bats and then pull the exact status, which was really the only teeth the irs had back then. That’s the interim sanction is these these penalties? You know what that is that the interim sanction the intermediate, the intermediates and penalties that the irs now imposes penalties are very, very steep there they could be as high as fifty percent of the excess compensation, so they’re very, very steep. So anyway, so so what happens is non-profit organizations and typically mohr affects larger organizations than smaller, but it really comes down to the salary levels that are being paid non-profit organizations need to really understand that the salary that there, whether the salaries, they’re paying the three key individuals within the organization, which is usually the executive director and other top level management appropriate compensation. And when you look at compensation, you kind of look at the whole package so it looks at not just the salary that’s being paid, but any other benefits that go with it, and the nine, ninety form, which is the tax return that non-profits are required to file, really has very clear with on the form, not just the organization itself, but any related organizations that are associated with that non-profit organization, it has really targeted questions on how much money is being paid to this organization, so it makes it very, very easy for the irs to identify the level of compensation that this individual is receiving and can in just the short amount of time that we have left just about a minute. What, what, what can a non-profit due to see whether they’re paying excessively? The easiest way to handle this is really to go back, and if you go online and do some research, you can find some salary surveys that are out there online there’s some that you can pay for, but there are others that are free, and what you want to do is you want to look to see if the compensation that the executive director is getting compensated is in line with the other competitions for similar sized organizations doing similar things that your organization does in a similar area of the country. The other thing you could do is you can actually go to guidestar dot or ge, which is where all the nine nineties air posted for all of the nonprofit organizations. And you can look at other organizations within your community that are very similar to the organization that you know that you are, and you can take the information of what their executive directors were there. You know, chief people are getting compared to your organization to see if you fall in line with what the other compensations are or whether you’re outside of the realm of what the averages for the group. Thank you very much to look at it. It’s something a that we typically recommend that is done by the board or by a compensation committee of the board. So that it really gets an independent review. And when you look at this on do the board or the independent competition committee are reviewing and approving it? Um, you know, you want to make sure that if the salary does fall outside of the realm that there’s at least the process going through to say why the individual deserves more. Then what? The averages and there’s a rational for that decision making process can we are out of time, but those are excellent ideas and both free ways. Simple ways of doing a benchmark to determine whether you might be at risk of this excessive compensation problem. My guest has been ken cerini, managing partner of cerini and associates. Can one thank you very much for being on tony martignetti non-profit radio. Tony, thank you for having me. My pleasure. Thank you. I’m going to bring now. Ah, guest from san francisco, jean takagi. Gene is an attorney for non-profits. We’re going to talk about some techniques to keep your board out of trouble. Jean welcome to the show. Thank you very much. My pleasure to have you. We’re taking calls again. We’re live today eight, seven, seven, four, eight, zero for one to xero taking calls for jean takagi. If you have some jean, we hear the phrase board governance. What? What does that mean? Well, it means a few things, tony. I think from a legal perspective, it means that the board is responsible toe exercise, its duty of care in its duty of loyalty and duty of obedience, and overseeing the operations and management of the organization to directors of aboard are ultimately responsible for the control in operations of the non-profits providing oversight or governance is the way that that exercise, and so that is very interesting, that duty of care, loyalty and obedience. And i neglected to say when i brought gene on that his practice in san francisco but nationwide is in compliance, governance and non-profit law and gene is the author of the non-profit block, which you’ll find at sorry non-profit law blawg, which you’ll find at non-profit law blawg dot com, and i’ll bet you could go there right now and don’t close this window that you’re listening from. But if you can open another window simultaneously, you can listen to gene and at the same time wed his writing’s on nonplayoff non-profit law blawg dot com you can follow gene on twitter as i do he is at g d, a k at g ta k on twitter, and ken does an enormous amount of speaking. Also, he also serves on local non-profit and exempt organization boards, advisory boards and so that makes him eminently qualified to talk about these subjects board governance and non-profit law generally let’s talk let’s flush out the sort of this board governance a little bit. Gene. What what? How do these duties of care, loyalty and obedience translate to actions that the board should be taking an individual board members should be taking sure. Well, i think they’re a triple ways to look at it from a practical perspective and not just legal perspective was a swell. So the board is response pompel really for directing the organisation for providing oversight over the organization on also for protecting the organization on dh it’s acid, which may be held in charitable trust if the organization or non-profit is a charitable non-profit so with those three duties and part of the protection, the protection, the other part of the p uh, is planning is the board is responsible for planning the direction of the organization as well. So in meeting aboard fiduciary duty, the duty of care, the duty of loyalty and duty of obedience, the board has really got to be active in terms of attending meetings in terms of providing oversight over the financial activities for the organization and part of that is regularly receiving financial reports that speak to the financial health of the organization and boards must understand how to read those financial statements, maybe not with the same type of precision and detail that people might be looking at it, but certainly with the level of understanding that they can react appropriately when it’s clear to an ordinary, prudent person or an average reasonable person that the organization may be facing some sort of financial difficulty. Gene, is there any obligation or maybe it’s just ah, good idea that that a non-profit actually provide some training two board members in reading financial statements, i think that’s absolutely true had tony, and that might be part of the duties of executive director or ceo of the organization to facilitate that type of board development and where there are no staff members, certainly up to the president or chair of the board and the cfo or treasure training the board to get, um, comfortable in reading financials and regularly encouraging board development and facilitating it as well, i think are very, very important part of a gn officer’s duties and since you mentioned training, what about new board members? So we just talked about little you just explained for us the training on reading, financial statements, but what what else should a non-profit the organization itself be doing to support new board members who are who have just joined the organisation? I think i think governance committee, if the board is large enough to support such a committee or the board it stuff, has got to be involved in board development in four areas. First, in the recruitment of directors, clearly you have to select the right people who are willing to serve the government functions of the organization. You’re not just picking based on how much fund-raising they could do or how, how involved they are, maybe as volunteers in the activities of programmatic activities of the organization, but you really want to pick people who are capable and who want to exercise their government studio orientation is the next part, and i think that what you were speaking about, bringing new board members in and making sure that they are aware of things like the governing documents of the organization, it’s articles of incorporation and its by-laws these air documents that shouldn’t just sit on the shelf because part of the duty of obedience or the one of the fiduciary duties of the board is to operate in compliance with the applicable laws, including the organization’s internal laws, which are usually documented in the articles on by-laws and maybe other policies, like a conflict of interest policy, whistleblower policy, etcetera, orienting the board with respect to our new board, members of respected e organizations, internal laws and general fiduciary duties. I think it’s really important than aboard handbook with a job description with boarding stations and an understanding of what the organization does, what its mission is, programmatic activities. All of that is really important and actually that’s really important on the recruitment and as well. But once the new directors in there, they should have a board manual aboard book perhaps a mentor on the board to help guide the organization through then regular training’s after that. And and jean, you said there are four elements we’ve covered to recruitment and orientation. I’m goingto interrupt you for a moment because we have a call on line one eyes this mary-jo hi. Hello. Thank you for taking mary. Welcome to the show. You have a question for jean? I d’oh. First, i want to thank you for a dressing that new nine, ninety and new filings with the irs. That was great. Have excellent. Thank you very much. What’s your question for for jean? Well, i struggle sometimes with board expectations, and i find that some, uh, some boardmember tend to get very, very involved in into sort of business that they don’t necessarily need to be involved in, and the others are completely absent. And you started to talk about orientation and group recruitment, and then i lost the rest of it. I’m wondering how to sort of establish the boundaries, and andi really get them involved in things you want them to be involved in. So we’re talking really about the organization setting expectations for its its board members now, yeah, gene, how how should the organization be doing that? That may be one of the most difficult questions i fielded, and one that that many, many non-profits struggle with the relationship between the executive director of the board is a critical component to an organization being able to further its mission. Effectively and efficiently and when you have a brand new organizations a little bit easier to do because we consent outboard expectations and on the recruitment side so once you bring in boardmember is they have an idea of what their expectations maybe so in your recruitment materials job description, sort of the boundaries of of where director’s duties are and where they stop and where the manager executive director’s duties are and where they stop and where there is some overlap that can all be established. It’s still there’s still a lot of grey and overlap between governance and management that’s not an easy thing, but it’s easier to do with a new organization within existing organisation. It’s really tough? I don’t have a quick, snappy thirty second answer to that, but this may be a time when a consultant or an attorney who’s got experience in government who can speak to the board about its legal duties and its roles will be ableto, i think, helped define the board duties and see that it will help director see that they’ve got a lot on their plate without infringing in the areas of day to day management, which really belonged to executive director still may have a third party in there. Yeah, having having a consultant can really help again. This is with a more established organization, that’s been running and that’s been having difficulty with this. The board may not be willing, teo respond so easily to an executive director who says, well, you’re infringing on my territory this is where the boundaries should be because executive director really serves at the pleasure of the board on. So the board may be a little uncomfortable receiving directions from from the mary-jo when it comes from an outside consultant, and sometimes when it comes from from a lawyer, it can hold a little bit more authority, and it might be treated a little bit more objectively. We see the same thing actually gene in in fund-raising there are things that consultants khun persuade boards off that the ceo executive director is just unable to mary, i want to thank you very much for your question. Wei need teo. We’re gonna take a break, and when we return, jean takagi will stay with us. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Hyre i think, duitz cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s, create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in this is tony martignetti, aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas, and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set. Two one, two, nine, six, four, three, five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Schnoll i’m the host of tony martignetti non-profit radio, and i’m joined by jean takagi. Gene, we got another call on the brake, so we’re goingto talk. Teo stacy, you with us? Stacey stacey, welcome to the show. What’s your question for jean? Hi, i i i work for a small non-profit and he was mentioning about the board. And i’m wondering when you’re starting up a nonprofit, is it wise to have a mix of professionals on your board like a mix of professionals, diverse backgrounds. So, like, ideally, what types of professionals would you pick one? I got ten member board of a small non-profit, you know, from, like, lawyers, the financial planners like who were the people who are important to be on that board? Thank you, stacie. Thank you, stacy. So that question jean really goes to recruitment. The first of the four things which i hope we get to. What about that diversity on your board? In recruiting, i think. That’s a great consideration. Teo, bring to the table. When you’re founding members, decide on who can you talk a little bit louder, please or move. The phone may be closer to you. Sure. It’s just a little bit, but yes, it is. Thank you. Great, i think it’s great tohave a skills matrix when you’re recruiting board, wrecked your board on dh if that’s possible. If you have enough recruits so that you can be selective and you can get some professionals in various areas, i think that would be ideal having somebody with an accounting background, perhaps somebody with an investment background, somebody with a legal background, but somebody who worked in the nonprofit sector before, perhaps, and fund-raising perhaps as an executive director, those would all be ideal individuals have diversity in other areas. Besides, skills may also be important diversity, so that you include perhaps some, some segment of the beneficiaries that your charity serves. Having them represented represented on the board can bring a diversity of issues to you as well. So i think it’s ideal tohave have those girls, major, but sometimes it’s a luxury to have all those people, because on top of all of these things, you need people who are really willing to fill their duties, their legal duties as boards of directors and be diligent about providing oversight over the organization, not just financial oversight, which we’ve been focused on so far, but definitely programmatic oversight because after all, non-profits aren’t existence to make a profit. The financials are really important, but on lee so faras they’re there to help fulfilled the charitable mission is effectively and efficiently as possible programmatic oversight ultimately important for her board. Yes, they need thio love the work that you do in addition to having whatever professional expertise they do, they need to love your work. Thank you very much. Thanks, stacey. Thanks very much for your call. Thank you, jean. I hope we have time. Well, i’ll try to make sure we do have time. You had said there are four things to consider. Andi got through recruitment and orientation. Can you let’s continue? What else should organizations be conscious about board members? Great. Third way that an executive may be ableto help in board development is through training that we could talk about recruitment, then orientation and training is sort of the ongoing training that that executive director or board president may facilitate for the rest of the board on this could be done by a periodic distributions of materials to the board. If the executive chair comes across important information regarding governance, short, snappy articles regularly distributed board members may be really helpful, bringing in consultants we’ve already talked about once a year, having a consultant come in and talk ng about do sherry duties or specific duties with respect to finances or with respect to programmatic management or fund-raising having those people come in will generate more interest among the board, and those types of training would be good against again, often times it’s more helpful to bring an outsider in it. It’s, a volunteer that’s, great that’s great, so long as that person is qualified to give that training, but training the board, that’s, that’s the the third thing, and then the fourth thing which sort of overlaps with the training, which i think i’ve already discussed about, is to ensure that the board is added with adequately getting information before boardmember things about the actions that they’re going to take that board meeting so they need to get the information well in advance so that they can prepare for the board meeting and make informed decisions because that’s key to meeting their fiduciary duties. A guest on a previous show, jean had made the point that, ah, lot of the administrative work should be done in advance, so that board meetings can actually be more engaging. And there can be people, maybe guest speakers, at a board meeting. But not to lose sight of the important administrative work. Just do as much of the administrative work is possible in advance. Jean in just the minute or so that we have left what’s your advice on ceos on boards? Well durney and it’s a difficult situation, but i think the general rule is that the ceo, our executive director, should not be on the board of directors. That would be the general rule, and there may be some exceptions to this, but i think even in the case of exceptions, it’s the best practices a best practice for organizations to work towards having a strong enough board that the executive does not need to be a voting member of the board. This does not mean that executive would not be invited to attend board meetings except when the board goes into executive session, but the reasons for this are really because of the conflicts of interests that executive director may have in serving on the board executives serves at the pleasure of the board, and the board is responsible for providing oversight over the executive, so typically in the for-profit sector with public cos you don’t see the ceo on the board of directors because they’re going to report to the board, and you have that check and balance there with new small non-profits sometimes you see the ceo or e t on the board, but again, i think it’s the best practice toe work to get to get that check and bound to have an independent board. My guest has been gene takagi non-profit attorney, you’ll find him at non-profit law blawg, dot com and also on twitter at gt a k jean, thank you very much for joining us on the show. Thank you very much for having me. I want to thank my guests today, stephanie straume and ken cerini and also jean takagi next week will be karen bradunas human resource is consultant. Your most coveted assets are the people who work for you. How do you attract the right people? Hyre them retain train and motivate them, and when it doesn’t work out, how do you move them on all done legally to keep your non-profits reputation safe, that’s next friday, september third, my guest for the hour will be carrying bradunas i want to thank creative producer claire meyerhoff line producer sam liebowitz and our social media is by regina walton speaking of social media, we have a facebook fan page facebook dot com slash tony martignetti non-profit radio head over there and like us, this is tony martignetti non-profit radio on talking alternative broadcasting. Please join us. Next friday, one p, m eastern.