And welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be hit with delusional parasitosis if you infested me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to give you the highlights. Hey Tony, we have consider the human factors. We launch our coverage of the 2026 nonprofit Technology conference with an NTC perennial, Ruben Singh. This year, he asks you to consider the human side of tech that impacts your CRM and really all technology, governance, business processes, inclusive design, and change management. Ruben is CEO of 1/10 Consulting. Then A conversation with the N10 CEO. N10 hosts the nonprofit technology conference. N10’s CEO Amy Sample Ward is also nonprofit radio’s technology contributor. They join us to share about the people and place of 26 NTC. What does the host CEO do to prepare for a major annual conference? On Tony’s take 2. Tales from the gym. Sourdough from Kim. Here is, consider the human factors. Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit Radio coverage of 26 NTC. That’s the 2026 nonprofit Technology Conference. We are kicking off our 26 NTC coverage with this interview. Everybody’s gathered in Detroit, Michigan, this incredibly savvy, smart tech community. And we’re beginning with Ruben Singh. Ruben is CEO at 1/10 Consulting. Ruben, welcome to nonprofit radio coverage of 26 NTC. Thanks for having me, Tony. It’s a real pleasure kicking off. You’re our first one, first one of the year. Excited to be here. It’s a real privilege. My pleasure too. Thank you. You’re a perennial. I don’t know, 3 years running, 4 years at least, at least, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always enjoy the conversations. Um, thank you. I do, I do as well. Um, just give us an. Overview of the the the topic your your session topic is beyond the technology, the human factors, the human factors driving nonprofit CRM success. Give us an overview. What, what are we confounding between tech and human factors? Sure, sure, um, yeah, thanks for asking. That’s why I really love being here at uh. Um, at NTC because, uh, I spent a lot of time throughout the year, uh, going to other different conferences that focus so much on products, um, on, on newest innovations and, uh, newest technology, and, uh, this conference really gives us the opportunity to step back and say, you know, what makes the technology successful, and in my 20 plus years of consulting experience it actually has very little to do with the technology. Itself it has to do with all the things that are surrounding it in my opinion, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean the, the technology is out there, um, everyone’s, you know, all, all vendors are really, um, doing as best they can to make sure they’re, they’re aligned with, uh, the needs of the community, but, um, that in itself doesn’t make success, so that’s kind of what I’m hoping to, to touch on this week. OK, sounds very good. Yeah, thank you. That’s a great overview. Uh, you can, you can grab, yep, grab his mic and. So what are some of these, uh, Amy also we might wanna be sensitive. I’m not sure about if the PA is a little too loud. I’m not sure it might be. We’ll take care of that. What are some of these human factors that you think are influencing CRM success? Sure, um, there’s gonna be about 5 or so that I’m gonna cover in my talk, um, but I can surely, uh, chat about some of those here. I, I, the first and foremost is really clarity of purpose. Um, what is it that we’re trying to achieve with the system? Um, oftentimes, uh, organizations will reach out to us and say, hey, you know, we, we need Salesforce, uh, and then I might ask them, uh, you know, what is it that, what, what is it that drove you to that decision, or, you know, what business problem are you trying to solve, and there’s not always answers for that, um, or the answers are very different depending on the different folks that you speak with, and, um, you know, it’s, it’s very easy, especially when, you know, you as a consultant to wanna jump in and problem solve and, all right, let’s build. Um, but, uh, you know, as I’ve learned through my career, uh, you, you really need to start with that strategy first, um, so that’s a, a, a, a key point of, of clarity of purpose, you know, what is it that we’re trying to achieve? Are, are we all on the same page of what we’re trying to achieve? Are there potentially different goals? Is it, you know, that we want to increase fundraising? We want to, uh, you know, we wanna be able to measure our. Impact better of our programs we want to be able to tell our story better. Is it, is it all of the above, um, all, all of these things ultimately need to be defined so we know how to, to, you know, uh, chart a path forward. I feel like some of this may be simplicity too isn’t, I think it’s simpler, although taking on a CRM change is not, is not simple, but. Is it, is it easier from an institutional perspective to say, you know, it’s a tech we need tech we needs Salesforce and we need versus being more introspective about our human our our our our human influences over technology? Absolutely Tony I think you you you hit the nail on the head there. I think it’s uh. Uh, oftentimes I’m brought in for what is said, hey, we, we need to solve this technology problem. We need to migrate to this new system or we need to upgrade here. And as I start having conversations and peeling back layers of the onion, I realized, goodness, this, uh, this is not a technology problem at all, um, or, or a very small part of it is technology. Um, there’s, um, you know, and, and I would say that, um, we, we often as a consulting practice, um, get brought into. Uh, organizations that have had a system for a very long time or they may have had an implementation that didn’t go very well, and when we look at the system itself, um, it, it’s almost, it is a reflection of the organization as well. It’s, it’s like we could see what your operational model is just by looking at your system. If it’s, if it’s very siloed and the data is very, you know, walled off, well, you know, it, it’s probably how you operate as an organization. Um, you know, every, everybody kind of doing their own things without a whole lot of synergy or a whole lot of, uh, ways to, to, um, work with each other towards a shared goal. Um, if data is, um, not really, really maintained very well, there’s not a lot of good data integrity, well, that probably reflects about, you know, how, how much or how little you value your data. Um, there’s so much that we can learn, you know, by seeing how the systems are and, and to your point. It takes that introspection and um it is much easier to just build and to be fair because then we can jump into a we can jump into it now we’ve got these 18 month project and just take a life of its own and we can ignore we can ignore we can ignore it the issue, the human issues and the culture issues that that we’re suffering through. Yes, and, and if I can, you know, if I’m being truly honest here, um, I will be honest it’s a safe space here. Um, we, uh, vendors, product vendors and consultants, uh, like myself, we don’t, we don’t necessarily make it easier, you know, we, we’re also like, oh, you know, if you’re not jumping on AI right now, you’re behind, or, uh, you know, if you’re not taking advantage of the latest product, oh gosh, where are you, you know, so I think, you know, we, we play a role in some of that as well, um, and so I really, uh, respect those organizations and, and especially those leaders within those organizations. who have that introspection and humility to say, you know what, before we jump into this, um, we need to make sure, uh, we’re aligned and, you know, our data is right and we’re, uh, you know, we have, uh, similar ideas in terms of strategy. We’ve cleaned up some of our processes. Otherwise what we’re doing is we’re spending those 18 months building something that ultimately won’t be used, um, and really, uh, hurts the bottom line of the organization and the impact they’re trying to deliver. How do you help clients? Make the pivot from we need the we need the tech solution to. We need to look introspectively at our, our human factors. Good question. And it honestly it doesn’t take much, um, you know, I, I, one thing I, I tried to insist on in our projects and try to build it into the, into the budgets is at, at bare minimum of, of what I call a visioning session where if nothing else we get leaders, managers, some, uh, you know, folks who are using the system in the front line. Get them together and be able to have a simple conversation about what exactly are the goals. Who are you as an organization? What are you trying to accomplish? What are those metrics that, that can tell you that you have or have not accomplished it? Um, what’s your vision of how a CRM system or your technology is going to help you achieve those things? Really just these 5 or 6 questions, um. I will get a good uh idea of how uh aligned they are and then you know when you ask those questions and everybody in the room has a different answer, that’s when they realize oh OK we’re not ready to jump right in um there are cases where everybody is aligned OK well then we can we can move a little bit faster and start talking about requirements and design, um, but I would say majority of the time with nonprofits, you know, trying to juggle as much as they have to in, in very unprecedented times. Um, it is, uh, it’s really, uh, that, that, that sort of initial conversation, um, is usually what makes folks realize, oh, we really need to step back and do this right. I’m wondering, has this cost you clients where, where, you know, they, they realize they’re not ready for the kinds of solutions and the kind of work that you bring? Um, it, it, it, it did early on, it did early on, early on I would say, you know, that they would come to us and say, hey, you know, we were referred to you, or, you know, can you implement this, and, and, and I like to step back. OK, well, we’ll find somebody else then. Um, oftentimes I’ll, I’ll actually refer them to somebody else. Like I, I, I don’t want to, I’m not in the business of, of, uh, wasting nonprofits money, um, or, or setting them up for failure. So, um, there’s, uh, but I would say as, as I’ve gotten further in my career and, you know, um, have shared a little bit, you know, the success story. That we’ve had with this approach, it’s, it’s actually, you know, we’re starting to see some nonprofits, uh, uh, reach out to us for this. They, they know that they, they need someone and, and they also don’t necessarily wanna bring in a different strategy consultant because they don’t want to have someone who is so disconnected from the technology, um, so they like to have someone who understands the technology, understands the technology roadmap, but doesn’t start there. Um, so I would say it’s, it’s actually, um, it, you know, at the beginning, it, it was tough at first trying to, to convince folks that this is the right way, but now folks are looking for it. Yeah, you and I have talked in the past about inclusive design. Let, let’s talk some about the, again, remind folks the, the value of that and, and how that plays into the, the human factors that are going to influence our, our CRM success. Absolutely, thank, thank you for asking. It’s, it’s not a question I get asked enough, so I appreciate that. We’ve talked at length about it. Yeah, well, I appreciate it. You, you always make sure that we include this as part of it, as part of the conversation. I, I love that, um. It’s, uh, uh, it’s, it’s definitely one of the factors, one of the 5 factors that I’m gonna be speaking about today later on, um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really just asking ourselves, uh, when we build systems, uh, as I mentioned, it is a reflection of the organization, it is a reflection of the organization’s values, so we have to ask ourselves who, who, who is at the table making these decisions about how the system is gonna be built, um, and who is not at the table, um, if and who is not at the table, you know, what can we do to get some form of representation to make sure that their voice is heard. Um, oftentimes I’ll go into an organization and, you know, IT will, will, will be sitting with me and say, OK, let’s get into requirements and design, and that’s why I always, you know, say, OK, well, we can, we can talk about this, but ultimately we’re gonna need to talk with the folks who are gonna be using the system day in and day out. Um, or some organizations even a step better, say, OK, well, you know, here’s our super users, and I’ll, and I’ll say, great, you know, I’m happy to talk to the super users who love, you know, the technology, who love CRM. I also wanna talk to people who hate, who hate it, who are uncomfortable with it, who are reluctant, who are resistant, even. We wanna talk to everybody. We wanna talk to people of different demographic, different lived experience, the, the, the more, the more, uh, perspectives we can get. Um, it is gonna help us build a system that’s really designed for everyone, um, so, so I, I, I do believe that and I think also we’re in a time now where, um, we have to be mindful about the data that we capture, um. You know, we, uh, only maybe 10 years ago everyone was talking about big data and collecting as much data as possible so we can do all kinds of, uh, analysis and such and, and patterns and visualizations, um, where I think the nonprofit community is being a little bit more intentional, needs to be more thoughtful about the data that we capture and the data that we decide, hey, this is not, not good or not safe to, to keep in our system. Um, so, you know, these perspectives don’t really come up unless there’s people in the room who are thinking about it, um, so that’s where the inclusive design part comes in, uh, is really making sure we have, uh, as many perspectives at the table, so we have a system that’s really designed for everyone, and we’re being mindful and intentional that, you know, in the data that we capture, the processes that we build, that we’re really. Keeping our communities in mind that we’re serving and and not potentially creating harm, you, uh, you alluded to the principles. I think you’ve got 5 principles of, of, uh, for successful CRM implementation. What can you just tick off those 5, um, clarity of purposes, as I mentioned, the inclusive design is another governance is a 3rd. Um, uh, leadership and leadership growth in the process is, is, is a 4th, um, and the 5th, uh, is, uh, uh, the, the human factors, uh, sorry, the, the emotional, social, emotional aspects of, of moving to a new system, and that’s where I’ll speak a little bit towards, you know, really just understanding that for some folks, uh, moving to a new system, it’s, it’s more than just. Just a technology change, it is really changing your way of life, especially for, you know, I, I work with gift processors who’ve been doing, you know, this, this, this job, um, where they really ensure every gift is, is, uh, entered and processed and coded correctly. Some of these folks have been doing this for 1015 years, um, and it could be a thankless job, and, um, you know, everybody wants them to move quicker, move faster. Um, and, and so I, I, you know, spending time with folks, um, in those roles have just made me realize that this is more than just a software change. Um, it’s really their livelihood, it’s their, it’s the way they do their work, it’s, it’s what they feel comfortable with every, every day, so we have to be thoughtful and intentional in the way that we, um, bring change in those situations. How about the governance role? What, what’s the, what. You’re you’re thinking there, yeah, on the governance side, um, it’s, it’s sometimes one of the hardest things to, to get, uh, folks on board for, but it’s to me it’s one of the most critical things. It’s, uh, you know, when we, when we roll out a new system, it is, it is, we try to make it as perfect as possible, but it’s only good for that moment in time. Um, organizations will evolve. They will change. Their needs will change. New programs come, new programs go. The, the, the social political climate changes, um, and the system needs to evolve with it. And that’s one of the things that I’ve seen when we, when we see how CRM or why CRM systems failed. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest reasons, um, because the, there’s no structure in place to ensure that the system is evolving along with the, uh, with the organization. So when I say governance, I’m talking specifically about a committee, a council, call it what you want, of a cross-functional group of uh folks across the organization, some leadership, some frontline staffs, everything in between. Um, making sure every department is, uh, or business unit is represented in this council, and they’re actually the ones who own the system. It’s not IT. It’s not consultants. It’s not any particular vendor. It is really this governance council that ultimately makes the decisions on, on what gets prioritized, how the system will evolve, what integrations are in place. Um, they don’t have to be technical, you know, that’s where. You know, consultants or IT come in to help implement and execute, but the ultimate decisions are really made by this, uh, governance committee in itself, and I could see how that would bleed into leadership, another one of your five principles you need leadership to create this governance council to make it real and not a, you know, a facade, right, right? And you’re saying and that yeah, and, and the buy-in that the governance council owns the. Owns the system. IT is a support absolute IT is support. So but leadership. I was, I was encouraging you to talk something about the leadership role. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that, um, and, and it’s critical because, uh, we work with some organizations right now who’ve who’ve taken our advice. They’ve created this data governance council, but it’s tough because let’s take an example, um, you know, how do we track certain demographic fields in the system? It might seem like a very simple thing of how do we track race, ethnicity, gender. Um, in, in, in these types of factors, uh, there’s actually a lot of discussion and debate when it comes to these things, you know, how do we wanna break things down, how do we wanna track it? Should we track it, um, and there can be lots of, um, differing opinions here, but this is where leadership then comes in and says, OK, I’ve, we’ve listened to everything, and, and they help, can help facilitate and manage the discussion. Um, there’s also, uh, another topic that comes up in these governance councils is also permissions and security. Um, especially for organizations that are, that are a bit siloed or are used to having their own shadow systems or their own way of doing things, you get everybody together, but now everyone wants everything walled off. I don’t want anybody to see my data. This is where leadership can come in and say, look, these are the advantages of, you know, transparency. This is what the advantages are of, of having some shared data. It can bring synergies that you can, we can refer from program to program. Um, so you know there’s going when we get these governance councils in place, um, there’s going to be debate, there’s gonna be discussion, there could be very heated discussions, but this is where leadership can really grow into, uh, they can either, you know, avoid it and say, hey, you’ve all figured out yourself, or they can lean into it and, um, help facilitate decisions. That can help the organization long term so leadership growth um or that leadership role is is critical to making the data governance work. Say a little more about the the growth and the the evolution really of the system you’re saying as the as the institution changes the the system has to change with it. Uh, is that, is that just like a, a technology maintenance plan, or, but rather, I’ll tell you what, rather than me guessing what it might be, why don’t you just tell us what, what it actually is? Yeah, yeah, sure, um, no, no, all good, um, so an example of specifically around data governance is, um, I sometimes work with organizations, uh, and we start looking at their data of, you know, OK, well, let’s say for what we need to, what we need to move to a, to a new system. Um, they wanna migrate to a newer platform and such, and I find all these data points that are there that have been there for maybe 1020 years, and then you start asking around and nobody can really explain what it’s for, um, nobody can explain the, the root of it, the origin of it, and it’s just things that have been added over time. Um, in, in the most basic form ways, it, it, it clutters the system. It adds to the technical debt. It clutters the layouts that makes it hard and, and, and to use, and, um, oftentimes that stale data, um, it, it sort of takes away from the confidence people have in the system. So they’re like, OK, yeah, I don’t know if this data is accurate. I’m not going to use it. Uh, in fact, I have this spreadsheet that I keep, and I know that’s accurate. A death knell to CRM success exactly antithetical to CRM, uh, yeah, and then if we, if we tie it back into the inclusion conversation, um, you know, sometimes I’m, I’m working with a nonprofit that works with, uh, housing, for example, and then I start looking at all these questions that they ask in their questionnaire questionnaires, and it has to do with criminal history. It has to do with substance abuse history. It has to do with all these things, and I, I start, I have to ask these questions. Why are you tracking all this? What is it is. It, is it required? Is it, and then some of the answers I get back is, oh no, no, no, this was from a grant report that somebody asked for 10 years ago or, um, a leader who was trying to do a report and they asked us to capture this, but nobody’s actually using it right now, um, and now if we think about, you know, big data, data analysis, we talk about AI, um, you know, my fear is, uh, that this, this data gets in the hands of the wrong folks and it can actually harm the communities that, that, that they’re trying to serve, so. Um, so I think that those are just a couple of examples of where, you know, systems need to evolve with the organization and then of course there’s the more operational stuff, new programs, different data points that we wanna collect, different drop downs that we wanna collect, um, and just making sure that the system evolves. The moment, the moment the system doesn’t catch up with it and it becomes too hard to make changes, um, that’s where you’re gonna see the shadow systems and the spreadsheets coming back into play. Share something else that uh you’re gonna talk about in your session today that that we haven’t talked about or or go into, go into more detail on something you think we haven’t covered sufficient. Yeah, I think, um, yeah, the part that I’m most excited about is, is really just talking about how, how the, the, how the CRM is really that operational model. I don’t, I don’t think folks really see that enough, um, you know, I am gonna ask folks like what, what are the, you know, key reasons that they see CRM systems going sideways or implementations going, you know, getting derailed. Um, so I’m excited to hear what the feedback is, but I know when I’ve done these presentations before, it rarely has to do with the technology, and so, um, you know, so, so I think that we haven’t talked about things like change management. Of, of course that’s definitely a key component of it, um, but yeah, I’m really most excited about just kind of talking about the operational model, and, uh, you know, when I, um, Had, I did a similar presentation last year and I spoke a little bit about one of the, one of my five factors back then or last just last year was, um, make sure you start every project with a project charter and uh I don’t know if I feel strongly about that this year. I say the project chart is important, but you know I, I, I would start with a theory of change like that that I think is more important, um. The, the, the project charter could is still a good data element to capture um on how you’re gonna run the project, but I think it’s a project charter, charter, yeah, yeah, of like, you know, what are we trying to accomplish in this project, who are the people, who are the roles, um, how do we make decisions, it’s important, but I think even more important and what I’m gonna emphasize this time is, is the strategy part of it. You know, who are you as an organization? What is your theory of change? How do you intend to achieve the change that you’re trying to create in the world? Let’s start there. Let’s start there and then, uh, we work backwards. We then we figure out the processes that will support that. We figure out the outputs that you wanna track to know that you’re successful. Now let’s start talking about the technology. The technology comes last, OK, yeah. Let’s, uh, so that’s the place to start. We’re gonna end, uh, we’re gonna end our conversation with that. Ruben, always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Ruben Singh, CEO at 1/10 Consulting, where you know that you’re not gonna just be sold a system that, that, uh, will keep Ruben busy for 18 months, but, uh, you ultimately unsatisfied with your CRM that, that, that does not happen for 1/10 consulting clients. So pleasure, Ruben. Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s time for Tony’s take 2. Thank you, Kate. We’ve got tales from the gym, sourdough from Kim. I learned recently. Uh, one of my, uh, visits to the gym in the morning that, uh, the sourdough bread. Is still flowing from Kim to Robert. I know you know Robert Semper Fi, our, our, uh, PhD, our Harvard Kennedy School of Government PhD in, uh, global studies. Recently, new PhD and it was Kim who was giving him sourdough bread. We saw this happen once before, uh, and they had made it sound like it was gonna be an ongoing thing and it turns out that it is. I saw the exchange, she brings the loaf. Last time she went out to the car to get it. Uh, she was, she was, uh, this time she was better prepared. Oh no, you know what? Last time it was impromptu. She was just talking about the bread and he got a loaf, but then it’s continued. And this week I saw, I witnessed one of the exchanges firsthand. It’s amazing to see, to, to catch a glimpse of, of monumental, you know, milestones of in history like this. The sourdough loaf, exchange, the transfer. The gift of bread from Kim. To our new PhD Robert. So, it was a startling thing to witness. I’m, I’m glad that I was there at, at the moment. You just, you just never know when these things might, you know, might never, might, it might never happen again. You just, you just have to get lucky in life this way. I also learned that Kim is the choir director. Uh, here in town at the church. Now, my town has lots of churches, but I guess one is the church. If I had to guess, I would say it’s probably the, the biggest one, which is the Baptist Church. Uh, Emerald Isle Baptist Church. But I, that’s a guess. She’s, we just know that she’s the choir director at the church. If I ever get confirmation on, uh, on which church in Emerald Isle is the church. Of course I’ll share it in another Tales from the gym. And that is Tony’s take too. Kate. I think you need to get a loaf of this sourdough bread. Well, the first thing I would need to do is start talking to Kim. I guess you can’t just walk up and ask for a loaf. Yeah, no, I’d have to start, yeah, you know, and I wave or I say, I do say occasional good morning to Kim, but that’s it. That’s as far as it goes. So, first thing I would have to do is introduce myself. That’s a big step. You know, I like to, I like to get my stuff done in the gym. I’m there to work, not, uh, not chat up folks. Uh, oh, I got another tales from the gym. Oh, a, a, a, another chatty guy, chat, and this guy. Uh, it’s coming. It’s coming. There, there’s, there’s too much chatting. I got, well, again, I got a place to go. Well, I got a place to go back here in my home office. So I take care of my workouts in the morning. I gotta leave. I, I can’t be chatting between sets and It’s just, there’s no time. There’s no time. You know, um, these folks are all retired. We’ve got just about a butt load more time. Here is a conversation with the N10 CEO. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of 26 NTC. You know that that’s the 2026 nonprofit Technology conference. You know that all these smart folks. Using technology or consulting in technology or thought leaders in technology, all for the social good, you know that we’re all gathered here in Detroit, Michigan. My guest now is Amy Sample Ward. They’re the CEO of N10. We are not at N10. We are at NTC, which is hosted by N10. It’s a little bugaboo that we share, uh, a little. Joke that we share. So we are hosted by N10. Amy is the CEO, of course, you also know that they’re the. Technology contributor to nonprofit radio. Amy Sample Ward, welcome back for, I don’t know, the 60th time, the 70th time to nonprofit radio. Thank you for having me. Thank you for, I forget the number, you’ve already told me 12 times of getting to do this at the NTC. It feels good to have it’s like it’s a core part of it now, you know. Thank you. You you actually planned for where. Nonprofit radio studio would be. Oh, absolutely. When we were on the site visit, we’re like we’re right here, this little beautiful view, sunny corner, everybody walking by, you get that like perfect podcast, ambient background noise of, of chatter and laughter. Yeah, no, we, we held this corner for you. Thank you very much. That’s what a lovely, what a lovely intro. That’s, that’s fabulous. Thank you. You can uh doff your little mic. OK. So we’re gathered here in Huntington Place, yes, which, which, uh, which is the convention center, but they don’t call it that. Exactly, thank you. I didn’t want to steal the headline, but yes, it is the Detroit Convention Center. Yes, we have thought, I, I, I’m quite curious how it came to be named that because. You know, like, what was the focus group room where they just tried and then everyone loves Huntington. Great. OK, well, let’s just call it Huntington Place, you know, um, I’m sure it’s maybe named after someone or mayor I, yes, the province leader of, yes, this is a trivia question. I, I can’t wait for a listener to email me like I can’t believe you didn’t know. Why is it Huntington Place? All right, but it is, and we’re gathered here. How many of us are gathered here in person? Well, because we’ve committed to continuing having both an in-person and a virtual, we don’t totally know how many people are in the building because you could just join virtually and not tell us. You can swap out at the last minute, totally, yep, so we’ve got, um, just about 1600 attendees in total. How many of them are in the room on any given day? I’m not sure, but you know, I, I don’t imagine that it’s 5, So it’s probably close to that number. OK, much higher than 5, right, much closer to 1600. OK, that’s right. Um, what’s, um, we’ve had, we’ve had a lot of chats, not surprisingly here at, uh, in the studio about artificial intelligence, of course. I imagine so. Let’s, let’s diverge from that. Oh, thank you for that gift. Share, share, uh, today’s keynote. I, I, I cannot. Uh, be in the key in the, in the comments for the keynotes because we’re setting up the studio because, uh, last minute stuff has to be done, ready for the 9 o’clock interview. So what was today’s, uh, keynote about? Sure, today was our, uh, the whole keynote was presented through our partnership with PIT UN, the Public Interest Technology University Network, um, which is part of CUNY no, no, oh, Pitt. OK, the pit lounge, we’re, we’re right here across from the pit lounge, yep, we sure are, um, CUNY, like many other universities, are part of that network, um, of the of the university network. That’s right. But so just to answer, I will come back to your question and I’m gonna take a meandering path, uh, to first say that because everything is horrible, everything is hard, um. Not everything, many things that we really tried this year to embrace the things that aren’t hard and horrible which are partnerships and collaboration and community and invited a number of other nonprofits who not just like in a. Talking point our mission aligned but like practically are part of what it means to advance intense’s mission of having equitable technology and an equitable world, Pit UN being one of them, spaces where they’re trying to make sure tech is built in community with community members. So we asked if they would come underneath the tent and and just have one big tent for this year and they of course said yes uh and we’re like we’ll do all the things we’ll sit right here we’ll bring all these people, you know, and one of the things they offered is how do we elevate these conversations should we partner on one of the main stage conversations and we said yes of course and how. We showcase what what it means to actually build technology in community. I think obviously that’s something I talk about you’ve talked about, you know, like that’s an idea, but how can we prove to this whole audience that it’s a real thing that people do every day. So this morning’s general session, Andrene Soli, the executive director of PI UN. Hosted a conversation with two practitioners from the Pitt UN Network where they talked about, yeah, literally this is a center at a university I run and we get all these students and all these community members and also these local government folks and these businesses and we built this whole advisory and then they decided what tech they wanted and then they built it together and then they have rolled it out and here’s how it’s sustained and really talked about like. Yeah, it’s not just possible, it’s, it’s happening, um, and, and kind of filled the morning with those possibilities. OK, cool, cool, cool. Um, so I, I’d like a little insider insider scoop or something like what is as we sit in this hallway with all these people, let’s get the secrets out. Yes, you’ll you’ll you’ll temper my question. No, what does the CEO of the host organization do with a 1600 person. 2.5 day conference. I see you, uh, you run back and forth. You, you have a radio in one hand. Lots of people have radios. All the team members have radios, but, uh, you know, I see you having conversations as you’re going up the escalator. You’re shouting down at the, you know, like asking this, yeah, but, but did the audience understand the nuances of the ethical considerations as you’re, as you’re gliding up this 10 minute answer is coming? Do they understand the ethical considerations as the as you. Um, no, so what, what, like, you know, what, what’s your, what’s your, what are your days like for the, not the lead in, but the live, the live 2.5 days. We started yesterday, today’s Thursday. Tomorrow we close Friday like around 2 o’clock or so, roughly. What do you do for these 2.5 days, you as the CEO of the host organization? It’s a great question, um. I think that my job is making sure that everyone is competent doing their jobs, so making sure everybody on the team knows if they’re. Signed up on it we have an internal staffing calendar for all the different roles to make sure people get breaks and get lunch and can walk away and not talk to anyone for a minute, you know, and so if they’re signed up for a shift and they’ve never done it before, do they know how to do it and they feel good and they don’t have to. Admit that like I’ve already checked in to say hey this is what’s gonna happen do you feel good you know you can ask me questions um and then the same thing goes to all of the partners anybody that’s here attendees too like. I want everyone, if you made it all the way here, even if you walked from a block away or you flew from 4000 miles away, that like. If you’re spending all of your precious energy to be here that you, you get out of it whatever you needed out of it, you know, and for some people that sessions, OK, let’s make sure the sessions are running, the AV team is there that, you know, those are gonna come off and you’re your best self, but also that attendees or partners, everybody felt like they’re leaving. Like satisfied and satiated and full and ready for a whole another year of hard work. So, A lot of my walking around or talking with folks is just like, do you have what you need? Do you not know where to go? Do you not know that, oh yeah, there’s already a room for that like here let me show you on the map where that room is, um, and then solving when people say no I don’t have what I need actually or I don’t know how to find that room, uh, and walking in there. So that’s my job. OK, so not, not so much putting out fires. That’s the, the, the team is empowered to deal with the if someone has a, has a purple lanyard and a radio, that means they can, so we have a, a pre-conference meeting with, with a representative of every vendor associated with the building and we say. You’re escalating it to me because I, I, I guess you believe that has to happen. Anyone on the team can say yes or no to a question and can authorize how we do this work. You, you pointed out last year that when you go to that, when you have that meeting with all the representatives of, I guess, housekeeping, uh, food, security, everything. AVIT. They’re accustomed to meeting one or two people on, on the host from the host organization. You bring the whole team. All of intent is in those meetings and they’re shocked. Like all these people, we can, we can deal with all these people. It’s right, and we ask every single one of them does an intro. Every single one of them shares what part of the conference they run. Yeah, alright, so you’re doing it differently. The food is excellent this year, as good as usual. We do really care. We want people to food. I know, yeah, I know, I mean. Uh, I, you have plus all the options. I mean, uh, there’s gluten-free, which I know is important for you, but it’s important for hundreds of people here, and there’s kosher and there’s vegan. The options have all been, it’s all been arranged. It’s not like we don’t halal, sodium-free, everything. Thank you for calling out a couple more that I that I didn’t think of, right, um. What’s the, what, what goes into the planning? Like, what’s the, what, let folks in on the. The two weeks before the first day here. What’s that, what’s that like for N10? Two weeks before, I mean, by that point we’re so down into the details of, OK, do we feel like this, you know, do we want an easel sign or a meter board sign at the bottom of that escalator? jargon jet. What’s a meter board sign? Oh, a meter board is like is literally those tall signs that that stand like 2 m tall, um, versus an easel sign which which goes on an easel, um, but yeah, we’re really down into the details within 2 weeks, you know. We have looked through all the bins and storage and we’re deciding that 2 weeks out is kind of when we do our final, you know, do we think that we need 3 more plastic sleeves that hold an 8.5 by 11 sign, you know, do we need more chocolate for community assistance desk, um, I think. Our biggest work starts a year out, you know, 2 weeks in it, you know, the train hasn’t just left the station, the train is like arriving the next and so our kind of our, our shipping. What about shipping? No, shipping is a month out. Shipping is already done. Yeah. 00, everything’s already on site here. Yeah, OK, OK, OK, um, but. We take, you know this, we talked about, you know, we have intense sleep day on Monday and then the following week is when we have our kind of multi-hour debrief and we start a debrief doc for the next conference. in 2 weeks because we don’t wait until it’s over to start, you know, um, because as soon as you’ve done something well now you know oh I shouldn’t have done it that way I’m gonna put it in the debrief, right? so we’ll go through everything. That we’ve put in there for the last year, make decisions. OK, do we just need to vent or is that actually something that we need to change, right? Or is that an idea for something to do differently and then we in that same document transition to here’s the build for next year. Speakers need a different form when they do their thing or badges need a different field in the, you know, right then and that feels in some ways like. A really big mental lift because you in order to make a lot of those decisions we’re like really playing in our mind OK what will that be like to build the registration, you know, checkout process or what will that be like to run a session in that room if we change the AV set and so it takes a lot out of everybody and it’s like hours of discussion. But then once we have that, we’re just referring to that document for a year, you know. It feels like there’s a catharsis to that too. I don’t have to keep this in my head, you know, it’s until we start the, the planning for the next one. That’s dump. It is a common refrain because it’s a year-round practice. Somebody will say, oh, I wish I had thought of put it in the debrief. We just, you know, star that document and everyone is just opening it all the time, all throughout the year, yep, put it in the debrief. OK, this is valuable institutional knowledge. Yes, yes, cumulative they are, they are coveted documents, you know, that’s cool. That’s cool. Um, are we, are we able to announce next year’s location? Yes, I should have looked up the dates. I know where it’s gonna be, but is it, it’s in Portland. Portland. It’s Portland, expected to be Portland and it’s in March. That’s OK. That’s OK. We’ll, we have plenty of nonprofit radio episodes between now and then. 50 50 to be exact. Between now and then, so there’ll be plenty of opportunities, but yes, next year’s is in Portland in March. That’s right. OK, because we, because you’re so egalitarian. Last year was Baltimore, East Coast. We’re Central Detroit. And West Coast is always Portland because so many staff live there and so Portland. Do we know two years out the location? We don’t. We don’t know that. Oh, you’re not bound. We’re not bound. You’re not bound. OK, well that’s good, right? Yes, flexibility because in years past, there were, there were binding contract COVID. Threw off the the cadence of how far out you could really book too. So I see. OK. OK, good. So Portland next year. Look forward to that. I already met someone from the AV Jen partners with us every year. Yeah, I didn’t know that. I, you know, she’s an all black and she’s got the logo on her shirt. Uh, you know, audio tape, whatever it says. And so I just pigeonholed her into, oh, they do the graphics and the recordings of, of all the of the sessions and the and the main room and the comments, etc. But no, she said she does the early walkthrough with you. They’re year round. Told me how you thought about this alcove for nonprofit radio and she’s, yeah, this is perfect. So yeah, so I’m gonna talk to her early for next year on how to get all my gear to Portland. This year, Amy, my wife and uh production assistant here, uh, lives in Indiana. Uh, where you went to college, um, so she drove, so I shipped a bunch of stuff to her because I fly. Last year Baltimore, North Carolina to Baltimore, I drove, so I drove the gear. This year I shipped the gear to Amy. She drove it up to Detroit. Next year nobody’s driving. No one’s driving all the way, neither North Carolina nor Indiana to Portland. So I would like to be able to get my gear there. It’s a real pain in the ass to bring it on a plane. I’ve done it. I’ve done it, but I’ve so many bags, gear bags, so Jen Jen is gonna. Partner with me. Jen’s gonna help you. She said talk to Hailey and Jen will have advice. Yeah, what were you gonna say? Well, you know that I do this to you regularly, but can I ask you a question, even though it’s your radio show? I think I know what you’re gonna ask, but yes, well, OK, it might be the one you, well, you might surprise me. Go ahead, of course you can. I was just gonna say it’s been 12 years of you being at the NTC and hosting. So many, I mean you do a really great job kind of curating if that doesn’t feel like a weird word, but you know selecting a real cross section of content across, I mean there’s, you know, 180 sessions or whatever and you’re not doing 180 interviews that would, you would be here for 2 weeks, you know. Ash’s with Ash’s help, I do, I do go through and select, but so I’m curious, you know, obviously 12 years ago people weren’t talking about AI and now a bunch of them are, but you know, separate from that kind of change, I’m curious any reflections that stick out to you of like. You know, I, I’m in the middle of the storm and, and you’re in the storm but not in the same spot of it that I am and I’m curious like if you can see shifts in those conversations or in those topics or in those, you know, like I’m curious what you see that’s maybe changed over those 12 years as an indicator of, of the larger sector conversation. Well, I’ve, I’ve, uh, complimented you on this before that you are a very much a macro and also micro thinker and I tend to be more tactical and so less of a macro thinker, so it’s a challenging question, but yeah, no, uh, so it’s not the one I was expecting. That’s OK, which is fine, which is absolutely fine. So I would say. You know, the way, the way now technology is mostly software, it’s not exclusively, it’s also human processes are, but I would say the way technology has evolved has changed the conversations. I mean, you know, 12 years ago, I don’t know, like I feel like 12 years ago we might have still been reading software manuals or app manuals, you know, but, but now software is so intuitive and. The user experience, I mean, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know if 12 years ago we were talking about UX and UI. I don’t know if we were, they were very technical conversations. And, and yeah, but you know design is not just intentional but it’s just more common. I feel they’re part of that. Yes, you can feel more a part of it because the technology is more I guess human human focused, you know, it’s, it’s, it seems like it’s, it’s more common. They’re more common threads binding the technology than there than there were 1012 years ago, um, yeah, an app. Across multiple apps is a more common experience than it was 1012 years ago. The expectations are, are, are higher, I think software is certainly more sophisticated, um, but it’s, it’s, it’s more than just user friendly. It’s, there’s a more common understanding of what technology is now than I think there was 12 years ago, I think. Yeah, you would not have, you wouldn’t have looked at, well, what do, what do our competitors do? That we can improve upon presumably, but, but you know, where are they starting from versus, you know, now versus, you know, let’s start out of the box. So I’d say that I’d say that. I don’t know how to put that in 6 words, but I like that and and I think that’s all for the good and that’s all for the good of humans interacting with the technology um it’s for the good of the missions that we’re all here to promote through. Savvier use of technology, that’s all for the good, yeah, yeah. The question I thought you were gonna ask me, tell me what that is, uh, what’s a common theme this year? Oh, OK. I mean, you’re welcome to answer it if you had an answer AI, of course, which was, is more common this year than last year, but you know what I’m seeing within that niche. Much more. Conversation about the environmental impact. We’ve only got one floating in the sky. People are more concerned about it this year than they were last year. Last year, uh, ethical considerations and, and that certainly not that we’ve abandoned the ethics and the biases of using artificial intelligence, so more of like the social human impact when you say ethical, just clarifying because people maybe categorize environmental as the ethical, you know, ethical use of our resources versus ethical. Impact on humans that’s the bigger picture that you that you see. Yes, I’m seeing more of the physical environmental concerns. Water, electricity centers, yes, with massive data centers, and I think that’s because of the proliferation of them. It’s like even just in the last 12 months that conversation is coming up. If it’s not in your backyard, there’s a good chance it’s in your state. Right. We’re now talking about billions of gallons of water. Well, and, and it’s so complicated, right? Like there’s already great examples of communities doing like the real work of democracy, you know, like local communities working together, lifting up their voices and saying no, right, getting city council to not approve a, a data center contract or, or whatever it might be. However, and I think that’s great, you know me, I, we could go down that road deeply, but the thing I hear every time I, I want to celebrate one of those stories is, but then what about the community that didn’t have enough people. Like I’m gonna cry just thinking about it I know you know or know how to organize to know how to organize to organize they didn’t know what to do, hadn’t hadn’t built that social infrastructure as a rural or low resourced community. To get to make the city council do that same thing, these are the voiceless, right? or or the marginalized, right, and, and so I, multiple things are true at once. I’m so proud of communities saying we get to have a choice and our choice is no and that needs to be respected. And at the same time it is true that there are so many communities that don’t know or have access to the resources that would allow them also to get to do that, you know, so then it’s like well then we just completely keep repeating the same patterns of the places where jails are built. Right where data centers are built, where giant warehouses are built, are continue to be in the places that are gonna keep mostly impacting those same groups, you know. Yeah, yeah. And the physical impacts of all those things, as well as the environmental, just environmental meaning like just what what you you do you even have a neighborhood or you just live someplace. You don’t have a community, you don’t have a neighborhood, you just have a home or an apartment somewhere. Yeah, I know. I don’t know. They’re Amy Sample Ward. They’re a good friend. They’re, they’re our tech contributor. They’re the CEO of E10, um. I don’t know. They’re in our hotel. You’re, you’re in our hotel. Maybe we shouldn’t, I don’t know. Do you have a Friday night planned? Um, for the first time in my personal NTC history, so of every NTC I’ve worked as a staff person, but even as an, as an attendee before I worked at N10, um. I am leaving Friday night. I have like the last flight out because, um, Saturday, I was gonna say tomorrow but it’s not, it’s not Friday. So the, the, the next day, um, at 10:00 a.m. is my daughter’s ballet competition and I wanna, I don’t wanna miss it and I couldn’t and I couldn’t fly in time. You know, on a Saturday morning, so I had to take the last flight out late Friday night. Good parent. Good parent also they’re a parent. Also they’re a parent. Yes, and she’s very upset she didn’t get to come to the NTC this year and it’s like, well, next year for sure. Yes, of course, of course hugging her. Yes, yes, she will expect an interview. I’ll put her on mic. Why don’t you bring her with you? It’s, uh, it’s Amy and Oren next year. That’s on mic. Yeah. OK. Alright, alright. They’re Amy Sample Award, the CEO of N10. They are the host organization of the nonprofit technology conference. We’re at NTC. We’re not at N10. N10 is the host. Amy is the CEO. Thank you very much, my friend. Thank you for having me, my friend. pleasure. Thank you for having me. You’re, you always, you always plan on nonprofit radio. Thank you. 13, we’ll be there in Portland, whatever the dates are, we’ll be there in March in Portland next year. Yes. Next week, our 26 NTC coverage continues with responsible AI adoption and ethically using AI. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martinetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.