Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host, and I’m the pod father of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be stricken with scorbutic gingivitis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to introduce it. Hey Tony, here’s the intro. Easy fundraising and friend making for board members. That’s Gayle Perry’s new book, Working to overcome the bad reputation foisted on fundraising by many board members. She’s clear on the 4 fundraising roles your members can play, and only 1 means asking for gifts. She also emphasizes the importance of solid stewardship and how easy it can be done, along with how your board and staff can best divide the fundraising work. Gail is the founder of Gail Perry Group. On Tony’s take too. Saying thanks to the people who don’t hear it much. Here is easy fundraising and friend making for board members. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome back. Gail Perry. Gayle is founder of the Gail Perry Group, a national philanthropic consulting firm. She’s spent over 30 years teaching board members and nonprofit leaders how to raise money without the fear and awkwardness most people associate with fundraising. She’s the author of the brand new book, Easy Fundraising and Friend-making for Board members. And her core idea is a simple one. Make friends first, ask later. Gail Perry, welcome back. After many years to nonprofit radio. It’s great to see you. Oh, Tony, great to be here too. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Congratulations on the brand new book. Oh wow, yeah. I, I, I know what, I know what goes into it, so I, I, you’ve been working very, very hard. I know. Congratulations. Thank you. It launched yesterday, so. Um, hooray. Absolutely outstanding. Um, let, let’s, let’s go into it. So the, the title distinguishes between fundraising and friendmaking. I, I think that’s pretty clear, but you’re the author. Why don’t you distinguish between fundraising and friendmaking, please? Well, here’s the thing, uh, most board members think that fundraising equals one activity, asking for money. And so if, if the, if the tagline and the motto is make friends first, ask later, which is of course relational fundraising, um, we, we get board members to back off of thinking about the ask all the time and instead focus on, um, the donor relationship and there are many, many ways board members can support fundraising without directly having to ask. So it’s, um, it’s an interesting adventure because I’ve been working with. Board members on these topics for, you know, over maybe 15 years. Well, your first book, your first book was 20 years ago, right? Fired Up. We, I had that, that may be, I don’t know if that was the last time. Well, you were on to talk about your book, but it wasn’t 20 years ago because I didn’t have the podcast 20 years ago. But your, your first book was Fired Up Fundraising. You’ve been, you’re focused, your, your newsletter is Fired Up Fundraising. You are focused on board member fundraising. Yeah, well, the company, we, we, you know, I’m a major gifts expert and, um, I have a lot of expertise in all the fundraising areas, but my sweet spot, my fun stuff is helping board members who are well-meaning community volunteers, you know, they, they really want to help, but they’re afraid of the ass. They think fundraising is asking and they throw up their hands. But I’ll tell you, Tony, um, I was writing this book and all my, all my friends serve on boards, you know, and, and they’re all saying, oh, I need this book. I need this book now. When can I get it? So people, people, there’s a need out there, uh, for something written directly for board members. There’s a lot of stuff written for nonprofit staff and for leaders. My first book was all about the staff and the leaders, but this is just regular old board members, very simple. This is how you can help. Let, let, let’s emphasize the simplicity, your, because your, your core message is make friends first, ask later. So we, we have, we have plenty of time together. We’re gonna go into details, but give us an overview of make friends first, ask later. Yeah, love that. Yeah, thank you. Well, the whole idea, you know, we have transactional fundraising, which is all about the money, and we have relationship fundraising, which is all about a relationship with the donor. And if we are all about the money with with um donors, they, uh, it’s not a very powerful ask and it sort of belittles the activity and it doesn’t make the donor feel very good either. Uh, but if you have a relational approach, a donor-centered approach for for one way to look at it. Is that the, um, you, you’re, you’re all about the whole person. Uh, tell me why you’re interested in the botanical garden. I didn’t know you were interested, you know, would you like to see a tour? Um, tell me, tell me, tell me what most interests you over here and I’ll help you learn more. So you get to know, you let the whole, the whole person, the whole donor, the heart, the mind. And the, and the body, um, come first before you ask them, would you like to know how you can help? We can’t be all about the money. It’s, it, it shoots, we shoot ourselves in the foot when we’re all about the money. People don’t like that. Yeah, uh, and, and, and the person, the, the person, their family. Tell me about your, your career. Oh, you’re retired. What did you retire from? You know, so many, uh, you know, there’s so many opportunities to get to know folks. And, and build that relationship and that’s what, that’s what you’re focused on relational versus transactional. Yeah, and you know, it’s a great, um, great insight for board members to have. They’re community volunteers. They come in, they may have a, a sales background, um, but some of them may have been trained in what they call consultative selling, which is what you act as a consultant to your potential, um. Um, client, um, and help them think through what they need. That’s real, and that’s a more sophisticated approach. I was trained by Xerox in that a long time ago, um, and, um, that’s really the same approach we take, uh, in this book, but I, I also want to emphasize, Tony, this slower approach to the ask, I want to slow down. Uh, when I, I started my career at Duke University, and, um, we had this, we had the saying that the more times you are in front of a donor before the ask, the bigger the gift. And also, I share when I, in my workshop for board members, I, I share that and they go, oh, wow, makes sense, makes sense. So, uh, they understand that it’s not intuitive. Because you think fundraising is asking, but, um, when they back off and look at the process, and, and you know, sometimes I, sometimes I tell them, remember when you were in junior high and you wanted to, um, invite a girl to the prom or you, um, or you had a. Crush on somebody and you wanted to see if they would walk to the walk to the store with you, you know. Oh God, this is gonna, this is gonna trigger me. I was terrible with girls and please, all right, go ahead and tell the story. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll calm myself. And so, yeah, we all remember middle school I was like, oh my God, but the thing is you might do a drive by their house. You might understand their habits. What is their schedule of walking to the store, and then you might use an intermediary to gently find out if they might like you or not, you know. So, I, I mean, people, people really love that metaphor because they, they all can see themselves there tiptoeing up. You don’t just like walk up to this girl who barely knows you and blurt out the ask or the, or the guy. You, you take it slow. So, so it really is, once you understand, it’s very intuitive. All right, I, I don’t feel triggered, but, uh, the driving, driving by the house, uh, and, and sitting next to them on the school bus, that, uh, that, that, that’s kind of what, what comes to mind. Oh yeah, the drive-by man, it’s a big deal. Right. Um, so, this all leads to why there is such a, a, a, a negative feeling about fundraising by board members because they, they think it is that, it’s that one, it’s that one activity. I gotta ask, uh, and I’m gonna have to ask my friends, and then they’re gonna ask me. And so what’s the point? We’re all giving to the same. Why don’t I just give, why don’t I just give myself to the organization because they’re gonna ask me to give to their organization. You know, that’s, this is how we get that, that negative perception by board members because it’s a, it’s a, it’s a basic misunderstanding. Yeah, it is because, um, uh, that’s a transactional asks. It’s all about the money. It’s not going to, um, help you create a donor that feels devoted to your cause, that feels like a stakeholder, that feels like they are one with you and supporting your mission. They are a support. It’s the difference between when you make a gift, will you be a supporter. And so we, you know, in fundraising these days, we’re talking a lot about donor identity and I identify myself as a supporter of WUNC radio. I am a supporter of my favorite blood, um, food bank, 3 different food banks, you know, my husband and I are. So, so when you get to the, when you help people personally identify with the cause, um, they will stick with you and they will give more. And that’s the essence of friend-making, Tony. That’s what friendmaking is all about. It’s, it’s being all about the whole person. Let’s make friends, you know, let’s bring people into the organization and help them, um, discover what really turns them on. And, and, and I, I will say, you know, people are smart and they all have strong interests and, and not everybody wants to be interested or not, not everybody is actually interested in your cause, but the people that who are in your network would love to learn more. You know, I was at a neighborhood party recently. I serve on the University of North Carolina Botanical Garden Board, and of course, I chair the development committee, you know, uh, and the gala, but, um, the, um, uh, the, we do plant, we do research and, um, all, we’re a land trust, we do all sorts of kind of wonderful things, uh, in the ecology and conservation area. And so there I was at this neighborhood party and I mentioned the garden and this lady says, Oh, the botanical garden. Oh, you on the board? You know, she expressed strong interest. And so, and so I, I managed to blather a little bit. Yeah, you know, the garden, we, we’re, um, we’re focusing on plant conservation for the Southeast and it’s just so important in this, um, warming planet. Right now, the ecology and conservation, she said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and so my next step is to invite her over. Yeah, people have, you’re right, of course, people have passions and part of what we’re exploring is, you know, how passionate are you about our cause and, and what, you know, how can we bring you closer to it if you are passionate enough. I know, I, you know, you and I are both in. Carolina, of course, uh, uh, you’re in, you’re in Chapel Hill. Chapel Hill. I got my baby blue sweater on, right? Yeah, you support, uh, WUNC Public Radio. Uh, I am in Emerald Isle on the coast. I support, uh, PRE Public Radio East in, uh, out of New Bern. I listen to that one too sometimes. OK. Oh, good. OK, I’m from the eastern part of the state. You’re from North Carolina originally, yeah, from the coast, yeah. Where, where on the coast? Um, Bertie County near Edenton. Edenton, where’s, where’s that in relation to Wilmington, or uh, it’s north, it’s further north than the coast. It’s the inland, you know, we have the Outer Banks and the Inner Banks. Edenton was the former colonial capital of North Carolina, and it, um, um, it’s on the mouth of the Albemarle Sound. OK. All right, so that’s even north of where I am in Emerald Isle. Oh yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s further north on the coast going toward Tidewater, Virginia. Yeah, OK, right, right, very far north. Yeah, I have a tidewater accent. You’re a, well, OK. Well, you have a North Carolina accent. You’re, you’re, you’re born and raised in North Carolina. I’ve only been here 1010 years. Well, welcome. We, we claim you as the Tar Heel. Oh, thank you. I, well, let’s not get carried away as the Tar Heel. I don’t know, but, but, uh, I know you’re, I know you’re UNC. I, I might be more NC State, but that’s OK. Um, so, all right, so you’ve got 4 roles. You’ve got 4 roles for, uh, board member. As fundraisers, as ambassador, influencer, occasional asker, I like that occasional asker and steward. So let’s, let’s talk through, please. Could you, uh, let’s start acquainting folks with, uh, what’s, what’s an ambassador’s role? Well, the ambassadors of the board do two things. They spread the word wherever they go, which means they learn their talking points and how to talk to donors, and they also invite people in. They’re the hosts, you know, they might host tours, they might host coffees or porch parties. They, um, they just spread good cheer and invite people to get to know more about the, the organization. So they deal with groups of people and the influencers deal one on one. Um, they, um, they can work privately behind the scenes with specific donors, funders, corporations, maybe government officials, um, because they have a particular connection. And they may not want to be in front of this funder, but they can advise you, um, in a, in a, in an approach to this particular funding source that is appropriately timed, that understands the sensitivities of the situation and who the and who may influence this person. There may be gatekeepers, there may be. Uh, I mean, you know, it, it’s, it’s a lot of nuance, nuance, um, when it comes to, um, approaching and developing a relationship with a significant potential, right. So, OK, so we have, yeah, so we have the, um, uh, we have the ambassador, we have the influencer. How do we, before we carry on with the other two, how do we Suss out who’s best in, in, in which of these roles and who’s gonna, because we want our board members to be comfortable. That’s and sometimes board members can play two roles. OK. How do we, how do we figure out what, what, where, where they’d be best suited? Uh, well, the rule of thumb is you meet privately with each board member. And just chat with them about their interest and who they know. They’re not going to reveal who they know in a large meeting, but they will probably in a private conversation with you and share a lot of very helpful information. You know, I have a, a girlfriend who’s an heiress, and she, you know, she, we like to do things together, but I don’t, I’m, I don’t want to like approach her. I could approach her and say, would you be interested in learning more about the botanical garden? Um, or I can do that. I can ask her if she’s interested or not, but I’m not gonna directly approach. I can coach other people. You know, I can easily coach other people. You have a friend who’s an heiress. Wow, I don’t know any heiresses. Well, you know, or heirs. I don’t know heirs or heiresses. She lucked up. What can I say? She lucked up. She, she lucked up. That is that she lucked up? Yeah, it’s a Southern phrase. Yeah, I don’t know. lucked out. I would say lucked, she lucked out. You say lucked up? Yeah. All right. I’ve heard married up. But, uh, I haven’t heard lucked up. Married up is more of a commitment than luck up. You better watch it. I have a lot of Southern colloquial phrases. Well, I’m gonna call them out because, uh, uh, everybody is not from the South, so I, I, I need to make sure that everybody understands what we’re, OK. Hey, Tony, Tony, one time, one time, you know, I’ve done a. A lot of board workshops in my career and the Actuarial Society of North Carolina, I mean of of of the US Actuarial Society, yeah, uh, and hired me and brought me in for a, a day-long workshop. They, the, the, the board members really wanted to know how to raise money. They were very motivated. And so here I am in the Midwest talking to these very people who are very precise, you know, actuaries, and, um, I’m using, I’m using y’all. OK, because I’m gonna be myself, right? And, uh, the, there, there was one of the guys who did a chart of how many times I said y’all, he called, that’s 3 times during the course of the day he was keeping, he was keeping a little hash marks. All right, I’m not that harsh. I’m not, well, he’s an actuary. He’s a counter. Oh, it was funny. I just thought it was hilarious. He’s a num numerical, uh, yeah, he’s a numbers person. All right, hash mark. All right. I’m not, I don’t have any hash marks. I’m not keeping track. Let me go, let me go back to finding out who should be an ambassador versus an influencer. We like to know, um, um, we like to meet, ideally you meet with people one on one, and you, and you see if you can do that at least annually, right? You meet each board member at least annually for their, for a conversation. Yeah, but some organizations don’t want the development directors or fundraising people talking to their board, you know. All fundraising, they’re all different. So hopefully you can meet with board members and chat with them about what, how they’re interested in supporting fundraising or, or this, this, this annual meeting may be with the CEO. This may be a CEO board member meeting. Yeah, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, so, um, my dog is barking in the background. I hope it’s, can you hear it? I love animals. No, no, it’s. My husband’s gone, so the dog is wrapping away over there. Um, but, um, so, so, um, sometimes also when I’m doing a board workshop, I will, uh, I’ll describe these roles and we’ll talk about them all. And I’ll, I’ll put the board member, I like to do small group conversations, uh, on a topic like they’re 5 people to a table, 5 board members to a table, and I force them to talk about some of these fundraising topics. It’s really powerful, you know, and, and I’ll say, well, can y’all, can each table, um, discuss these two. Roles and see, see how, how it feels to you to take on one of these roles. And so people could talk to each other. Well, you know, I think maybe I could do this. I have found doing all the, all these workshops I’ve done over the years, Tony, is that especially with board member volunteers that the more I can get them to talk. The more they take ownership of and, and the more insights they develop and they, it lands, it lands so much differently, you know, you can’t just lecture to people, adults will turn you off. So getting them to think and have discussions is very powerful. It’s time for Tony’s take 2. Thank you, Kate. I’m thinking about Saying thanks to people who don’t hear thanks very much. Uh, I’ve been traveling a lot recently, both for client work and also for my book, and there’s a good bit more travel coming up the rest of this year. And so when you’re on the go, you know, it’s easy to forget, I think, simple courtesies. So I’m trying to be more conscious of saying thanks, uh, showing gratitude in very ordinary situations. Uh, to people who don’t hear thanks very much like. Uh, bathroom attendants in airports. I mean, everybody’s just in and out of the bathroom, you’re right? You either, you either got to your destination and you gotta get in your Uber or you gotta get to a meeting, or you’re connecting and you gotta get to your flight, or you’re just, you’re arriving at the airport and you gotta get to your flight. Nobody, nobody thinks of these folks. Uh, but when the bathroom is great, when the bathroom is clean, We’re grateful, right? And when it’s not, we’re disappointed and upset. So, I think just thanks for those folks. Um, I’m also thinking about people who prepare the, uh, the breakfast. At hotels, I stay at a lot of Marriotts. Actually, I stay only at Marriotts. And, uh, you know, breakfast is included. So yeah, of course, you’re entitled to the breakfast, but I like to poke my head in the kitchen and, uh, and thank the folks who are in there for breakfast or when they come out to replenish the scrambled eggs, uh, or they cut up, uh, strawberries. You know, I like to say, I like to say thank you. I’m trying to be more conscious of this. And at home. Um, I’ve, I’ve gotten very good at saying thank you to the garbage men. They come 3 times a week. Monday and Friday is garbage, and Wednesday is recycling. I, I live alone, so I’m hardly contributing. But when I do, when I put my Garbage can out and they pick it up. I make a point to go out and, and say thank you. So. I don’t know, I, I just, I think we should be more conscious of. Showing our gratitude in very ordinary routine places. And that’s Tony’s take 2. Kate. I think last time you had, you said something like this on Tony’s Take Two, I brought up crossing guards. This time I’m going to bring up school janitors, teachers, and security. I mean, I’m in the classroom now twice a week, so I’m also trying to like build relationships with the people that I’m now working with. Um, But they, they don’t get any recognition. Janitors, teachers. Uh, and security, security, yes, yeah, yeah. Very good, yeah, cuz you’re um, you’re doing your student teaching now on your way to your degree in education. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s good to thank folks like that. Just, even if it’s not necessarily a thank you, although thank you is outstanding, I think, just a hello, hello. What’s your name? You know, what’s your name? I see, I see you every day at the, at the entrance, Mr. or Ms. security person. What’s your name? Yes. He’s got you sorry. We’ve got booco butt loads more time. Here’s the rest of easy fundraising and friend making for board members with Gay Perry. Let’s go to the occasional asker. What, what’s this person’s responsibility. Sounds pretty clear, but yeah, well, the thing is, is that give us the details. Reason, reason we say occasional is that we don’t want, um, um, board members to just willy-nilly be asking all over the place. Uh, an ask needs to be planned. And it means, needs to be timed correctly, uh, board, uh, uh, and one of our rules in fundraising never surprise a donor with an ask. And so, uh, the occasional asker participates with the staff team or if there’s no staff with, um, with the, they, um, they wear a staff hat as well, like, is this person ready to have a conversation, you know, we teach a lot about permission. Say to the donor, would you like to have this conversation? Would you like to learn more? May we come see you? Uh, so, um, I think, uh, the occasional asker role helps me explain to board members how it’s supposed to be done, you know, strategically, strategically, yes, it’s a good word, strategically, and I thoughtfully, relationship-wise, where is this person on the, on our relationship spectrum versus this other person, and you know, ready, the other not ready. I’ll say to the board members, I’ll say, um. Have you ever been asked before? No, I’ll say, what happens if you ask a donor before they’re ready and everybody in the room goes, oh yeah, that is not a good idea, you know, and they’ve had these experiences too. So it, it is possible to help board members understand this stuff, but it’s not, but they don’t walk into the board role understanding how it all needs to work. No, this is your responsibility to help them understand. Yeah, I have fun with this. I enjoy doing this. And the 4th role is steward. Oh, yes, steward. Steward is a thank you committee of the board, you know, and the stewards are the people who adopt donor retention as, um, as something they’re going to help the staff tackle. Uh, you know, uh, the whole idea that an organization may be losing half of its donors every year or more or more, yeah, 70, 75%, yeah, maybe losing 1st, 1st time donors lost. Oh, the first time donors, yeah, they are very unlikely to stick. And the larger donors do send their donor retentions higher, but just explaining, helping board members understand the huge opportunities there are in donor retention and, and it’s the easiest ask in the world because these people are already donors right now. Let’s just get them to renew their gift and remain supporters. You know, so, um, so, so there’s so many ways to thank donors and I was talking about this at a little party last night, you know, because, uh, uh, there were some people who are interested in, in tips for my book. I said, well, let me give you a tip about this donor retention stuff. And the board, you know, the data says that when board members make thank you phone calls, uh, the donors will keep giving and the gifts will go up. Keep giving and the gifts and it’s such a simple call to make. All you’re doing is calling and saying thank you. If, if you don’t get the person, you leave a sincere, heartfelt voicemail message with a phone number, of course, so they can call back. Um, those are so simple. You’re just saying thank you. That’s it. Thank you. Why do you love us? Thank you for loving us. Why do you, you know, if you can engage them in a conversation, great, but they’re, they’re, they’re ideal for board members. Yeah. Yeah, and so these are such easy roles, you know, the ambassadors are like the social committee and, you know, the stewards of the thank you committee and, and, um, and, and nurturing those relationships at the beginning. And after, and after the first gift, you know, helps, uh, create, create donors that are gonna stick with you in the long run, this is how you build a culture of philanthropy too, is, um, is helping board members understand all these different roles and helping them get enthusiastic about how they can help because these are things that everybody can do. I’ve heard of the stewardship calls being a part of a board meeting. So, you know, maybe quarterly, the last half hour of the board meeting is, here’s the list. We’re all gonna call, we’re all going to call 6 people. Let, let’s, and if you don’t get them, you leave a sincere message, but let’s, let’s all do this, uh, as, as. Last part of a board meeting occasionally. And you know that helps, um, board members understand the whole fundraising process when they do that. It’s a wonderful way to to ease them in slowly into helping support fundraising and let me tell you, can I tell you a story? One of our stories, we love stories, yeah, one of our clients, um, this was a staff member who was doing some thank you phone calls and she just chose this gentleman who was routinely giving, um, $1000 a year, every year, regularly, $10,000 and so she called him and she had taken our trainings and she knew the questions to ask him like, I’d love to know how you came to be a donor. You know, and the guy started talking and, and she, they were talking about the mission and what his background was in this work and how he felt about it and he talked and talked. And then he, um, he, he said, you know, I’m so, um, committed to this cause. I want to make a $100,000 gift. Wow, boom, boom without an ask, without an ask, you know, so, um, that, that’s fantastic from a $1000 donor to a $100,000 donor without an ask, yeah, without, without asking, just having a conversation, yeah, um, and, and, um, and somebody was writing to me recently because I always ask people to try these ideas and sit, let me know how they’re doing. One person wrote and she said, you know, I’ve been having these donor meetings and when I asked one person why, how they came to be a donor, she opened up like a flower. Yeah. Isn’t that wonderful? Yeah, that’s sweet. Yeah, people, you know, yeah, people who are invested in our work, yeah, you know, it’s special to them to get a call from a board member or in that case, you, the story you just told, that was a staff member. But, but to just to get a call or a handwritten note. I’m a big supporter of handwritten notes. A handwritten note from the CEO or a handwritten note from a board member. You know, these, these things are, they’re such easy, easy, but enormously valuable touch points that, you know, we overlook them because we think, oh, what’s a phone call? But it’s a phone call of thanks. That’s it. It’s a little bit, it’s, you took 5 minutes to write a hand note that nobody does. So it’s going to stand out because it’s going to come. The little card is going to come, it’s going to be hand addressed. It’s going to stand out. Yeah, it’s going to stand out and And it, um, and the money available in donor retention is so great. Right now, we’re looking at the year-end fundraising for 2026 and I tell everybody, all my workshops and talks, I say, um, uh, add up every, add up the money. Um, well, add up all the donors who have given so far this year, and then the donors who have not yet given, who have not yet renewed their gift this year, and look, look at how much money is available to this organization if you do a good job between now and the end of the year. Start your year-end campaign with a thankathon. You know, start it with a thankathon. Very good, yeah, yeah. You make the point that, uh, the first gift is never the largest gift. Absolutely. And I think that plays obviously into the stewardship we’re talking about, but, you know, say, say some more about that. Well, I guess the correct way to do it is the first gift is hopefully never the largest gift. OK, hopefully, because, um, a lot of our research on donors shows that. Um, when donor donors make a first gift, they’re sort of testing out the organization. You know, do I like these people? Um, do they, do they know that I’m giving and I, am I anonymous? You know, I don’t want, I personally, I don’t want to be an anonymous donor. If I’m a monthly donor to at least 10 organizations, I, I hope they know I’m a monthly donor. So, so that, uh, looking at every donor with the potential that they have a long-term future with your organization also helps change your perspective a lot. And as you know, that the people who have been giving to your organization regularly, even small amounts, you know, maybe 10 years straight or 20 years straight, you’re in their will. You’re the plan giving expert, isn’t that right? I know a thing or two about planned giving. Yeah, I know a little bit, but the people who are most likely, most likely to make planned gifts. Yeah, those long-term loyal committed donors. Yep, yep, they don’t have to be major donors. They certainly can be, but they don’t even have to be major donors. Just, it’s that long-term loyal support. Those are your best planned giving prospects. You’re right. You’re right. And people who feel committed. Yeah, they are, because they’ve been giving to you for decades. I mean, it’s not unusual to see someone who’s given 2025, maybe 30 years, and these are not necessarily large gifts, but it’s the consistency. They, they, they love you so much, they think about you at least once a year. Maybe, maybe you see 20 years of giving and 25 or 28 gifts, because some years it’s multiple gifts. And again, not necessarily large gifts, but, but that kind of commitment. Um, you, uh, you have some thoughts about boards investing in planned giving. Oh yeah, I have thoughts about board members investing in fundraising too. I have all chapter. On, um, on strategic decisions that board members make. Because, ah. Over and over and over, board members look at the cost of fundraising as an expense. It’s just like money down the tube. Can we cut this expense? Can we cut this expense? But the fact is, the money you spend on fundraising is an investment because it pays for itself and, and it returns. And so the more, the more you invest in, I mean, the data, data is all over the place. The more you invest in fundraising, the more money you will raise. Uh, so I, I tell sometimes when I’m working with this really small organization that’s struggling with um building infrastructure. Um, I say to them, you know, here you are, you have $1 and you’re trying to feed hungry children or put coats on them or cure disease. You, you know, you, you really need to spend that whole $1 on your program, but if you don’t take part of that, um, that $1 and spend it on your organization, you will never grow. You will be on the hamsterswheel forever and you’ll stay stuck and so people go, oh, OK, whether they, whether they bring that through when it comes time to do budgeting is another story. Another point you make is that major gifts often come from folks you, you already know. They come from insiders. These folks just haven’t been cultivated and stewarded for becoming the next major donor. Yeah, they have not been cultivated at all. In fact, Penelope Burke’s great research, um, she’s, she’s no longer, um, involved with fundraising, but she, she would say that you, every organization has got major gift prospects, major gift donors in its database, but unfortunately they’re small donors and they’re not being treated. Like they have major potential and so you’ve got sleepers inside your donor database. That’s why you have to treat everybody with warmth and love and and help them feel appreciation. I want to mention the word feel, uh, the more and more, the longer I’ve been in fundraising and read the research through the years, it’s how people feel that is so important, you know, people want to, um, feel connected, they want to feel appreciated, they want to feel passionate. They want to feel good about their gifts, uh, and, and, and, uh, when we, when we, when we do a thank you note full of a gift receipt, which may, we may need to do, but you make it transactional, you, you miss the magnificence and the joy and the passion of somebody’s support for your work. Well, you can send the gift receipt, but you can also send a sincere thank you note or, or a phone call. Well, both, um, maybe both even, um, uh, an informal call, and then a formal thank you note, as well as the gift receipt. You know, that, that IRS required document for every gift over $250. It’s not one or the other, right? We can do it all. I know, and I, I, I’ve worked with some organizations that were still doing this thing called an annual meeting. Because that was required in the bylaws. Very boring, right? Very boring. Nobody wants to come. But if you turned your annual meeting into an annual donor appreciation event and made it into a party, the donors would show up. What’s, what’s the annual meeting? that’s some bylaws require. An annual meeting of the board you’re talking about no, of, of, of, of members. So, if it’s a, if it’s a a specific type of agency, if it’s a membership organization, maybe you know, and, and museums and botanical gardens and, uh, the certain types are, are usually organized according to membership, which is a real mess if you ask me, but that’s not my topic today. No, yeah, I, I understand. All right, um, something we’ve, we’ve kind of talked around, but let, let’s, let’s get into detail about the Dividing up the roles, the fundraising roles between the board. We, we identified 4 roles for the board, but what’s the, the, you know, what’s the division between the board and the staff? How do you see the staff supporting the board in those 4 roles? Let’s talk about that relationship and, and, you know, that, that can be a difficult relation that can be a difficult issue because Um, we see more and more that board members don’t understand the line between, um, their role and the staff’s role. Uh, people join boards to give their opinion and so many board members are not going to particularly give opinions about the program area, um, but they’re certainly going to give their opinions about, um, fundraising. So there I’m following somebody on substack right now who talks a lot about board members who overstep, uh, and try to give fundraising advice to the staff team. So I just want to touch on this as, as a perennial issue in many organizations that board members are not educated. And even if you educate them, they feel like they are empowered to provide input into fundraising strategy itself. Uh, so I do make those points gently in the book since this is written 4 board members, but also, um, the role of staff is to be the quarterbacks of all these donor relationships, um, and I have seen volunteers get really enthusiastic about a relationship and then drop the ball. And or the the the board member may participate in some way and then nothing else happens because they don’t do the follow up. So staff is the glue to track the donor relationships, to be sure that activity is happening with important donors. And if the board member volunteers to do something and they don’t do it, then the staff figures out another way for the board, for the donor to feel, feel, feel good about the organization. So staff quarterback, staff does the follow-up. Staff sets up ask meetings, Staff briefs board members, helps choose, um, it helps develop strategy for big asks in collaboration with influencers and occasional askers. I see the um the, the, the problem that you were describing, board members overstepping and, you know, getting into fundraising strategy. That’s, that’s the CEO’s responsibility to set, set those boundaries and enforce. The boundaries and say, you know, that, that’s really, that’s really a staff role. What, what, what, what we need you to bring for us is either ambassador, influencer, occasional asker or steward, you know, but, and, and we want your help in, in those respects, but, you know, uh, we, we, we can’t take direction from all, all the board members. That’s, that’s, that’s really my role and the, and our development director’s role, if there is one. So you have to delicately enforce those, those boundaries. I would say that a lot of the executive directors, um, um, are nervous about establishing that kind of boundary. Yeah, but that’s when you get overreaching. If you don’t enforce, I mean, it’s the same as, uh, I don’t know, maybe this is not a, a, a very fair analogy, but, uh, and I’m, and I’m the guy who doesn’t even have children. But to me, it’s like, it’s, it’s similar to enforcing boundaries around children. If you, if you don’t enforce them, they’re going to be tested. And adults are not that much different. You’re right. But, but if you, if you do step in, most adults will, will learn from a, a, a gentle admonition. But, uh, too, but I, I serve on the botanical garden board. And I chair the development committee, and we’ve got some new board members who are beating, beating certain topics to death that they think need to happen. Yeah, I can’t, I try to explain it to them, but I’m just a fellow board member. It sounds like they may have come on the board with an agenda that, that they want to see, you know, whatever. They have this idea, and it’s such a great idea, and I don’t understand why the staff can’t implement this idea. You know, when you have that, I mean, that’s part of the landscape of nonprofit boards is to have people like that. And hopefully you have a solid, either a solid board chair or a solid executive director that understands that yellow line. That you don’t go outside the yellow line of board roles, and I will say too that, um, people don’t talk about board roles. People don’t, the board members don’t know what’s expected of them because so many boards are different. And so, um, just a, just a frank discussion of the board roles and responsibilities rarely happens. They might sign a document that this is what I’m supposed to do, but, uh, it’s not necessarily enforced and it’s not discussed. Yeah, not right, not enforced, not discussed. We, we avoid difficult conversations, but they end up becoming 10 times more difficult if, because the problem festers. And, and now we’re, and now we’re having to manage, uh, a problem maybe between a, a board member and, and some staff because the board member is overreaching. So now it’s becoming an employee, team member problem. We’ve got to, you know, you, you, you can’t shrink away from these, these difficult conversations. That’s why you’re the CEO. That’s why you’re the board chair. And, and, and Tony, the, the real challenge is once you get a board operating correctly, 1/3 of them leave and you have a whole new group of. Yeah, well, well, you, yeah, but you have the 2/3 that can help socialize the new 1/3 to the, to the right way of doing things and, and the, and the board’s appropriate role. Yeah. Let’s, um, I like, excuse me, I love, um, you know, like actionable tips, and you have a bunch of them, you have a bunch of them in the book. Um, what, what’s something, if we have a fearful board member, what’s something we could ask them to do in the next week or so, fearful around fundraising? Oh, do thank you calls and give them a script and make it fun, you know, I suggest a thankathon is bring pizza in, but make people come together. People, people, I mean, after the pandemic, people are so used to Zoom, which, um, which does not create any sense of collaboration. It, it, it really hamstrings a lot of groups meeting on Zoom all the time. So I think helping people, you got to train people a little bit about why, why these thank yous are so important. What are we doing? donor retention. We want donors to feel good about being a supporter of our organization. Yeah, there’s that feeling, feeling again. How do you feel about the organization? How do you feel it treats you? Yeah. Yeah. So that’s, that’s a great way to deal with a fearful boy. Let me, let me another story. OK, this is a thankathon story. So working with this group and I said, thankathon, and they said, OK, we’re gonna have a thank, we’re gonna launch our year-end campaign with a thankathon. And there was, it was a medical facility and there was this older gentleman trustee. And he was very nervous about this whole thinking thing. He just was very, he was reluctant, but he was a good sport and he showed up for this night, pizza and everything, you know, camaraderie is always helpful too. And, um, so he made a couple of phone calls and one call he made, this is a true story now, one call he made was to another gentleman who had had a great experience at the hospital and the two men talked maybe 15 minutes. About the hospital and all of these things. Two weeks later, the person who called, got the thank you call, sent in a $10,000 gift. And said, I just enjoyed my conversation so much. You know, and the board member who was fearful, so I was so pleased. He said, maybe this stuff is not so bad after all. So, you know, Tony, we, we, we belittle, we, we make fundraising this awful thing down in the gutter. We make ourselves small when it’s all about money. And then if you think about high up on the hill, we’re changing the world, white light, making people happy, making people feel their passion, you know, um, doing good for the world. And it, and it’s, it’s the same activity is, is your point of view. Think It is, your, your point of view is, is it’s all in the mind. Yeah. And, and it’s also, it, pardon me? It’s how you approach it. which, which is driven by how you think about it, and that’s where the book comes in because board members are thinking. Incorrectly about what, what fundraising is as a board member. They’re, they’re thinking, you know, it’s where you started. They’re, they’re thinking I have to ask a bunch of strangers or my friends for money, and I don’t want to do it. And that’s, well, that’s, that’s the value of your work, that’s the value of the book. And that’s been my life’s work really with all these board members. You know, my motto is when in doubt, throw a party. And it always makes them laugh, but you know, I do that deliberately because lighten things up. And I say to the board members, I say, listen, if you, if you can have fun doing what you’re doing, if you can have fun changing the world, if you have a sense of passion and camaraderie and enjoyment, what’s gonna happen? You’re gonna bring more people in who wanna hang with you. You’re gonna attract more attention in the community because people are gonna be talking about it. You’re, you’re gonna raise more money. And change the world faster if you, if you can level up that level of enthusiasm and enjoyment. We call it fellowship. You know, I enjoy hanging out with people I know. It’s fun. So, um, I do think that if we let board members get help, foster board members, um, personal relationships, it’s, um, it’s very important to help for board members to know each other because they will enjoy each other, getting to know each other. The book is Easy fundraising and Friend Making for board members. Gayle, where is it available? It’s available on Amazon and Goodreads, and I have a Kindle, a hardcover, and a soft, softcover paperback, and it went on sale yesterday and we achieved number one bestseller status in a couple of categories too, Tony. And, um, I’m so excited to because my goal, uh, my goal is really to get this into the hands of as many board members as possible and, and help them change the world. That’s my goal. Gail Perry. Founder, outstanding, founder of the Gail Perry Group. Are you, uh, are you active on LinkedIn, Gail Perry? Uh, very much LinkedIn. You are very much active on LinkedIn. All right, so folks can connect with you there. I know we’re, all right, I know we are connected. All right. And if y’all, if anybody listening is interested in some board workshops, I’m happy to chat with you about how to approach those. Thank you very much, Gail. It’s great to see you. Congratulations again. Congratulations again on the book. Thank you, Tony. Congratulations on yours too. Thank you. Okey dokey. Bye. Next week, hiring your development team with Sarah Olivieri. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.