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Nonprofit Radio for March 23, 2018: The Donor Journey

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My Guest:

Taylor Shanklin: The Donor Journey

Intentional. Personal. Relational. Thoughtful. These are touchpoints you want your donors to feel as they move through their relationship with your organization. Taylor Shanklin from Pursuant shepherds you through the journey planning.

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into sir some virgins if i saw that you missed today’s show the donor journey intentional personal relation alot thoughtful the’s, air touchpoint you want your donors to feel as they moved through their relationship with your organization? Taylor shanklin from pursuant shepherds you through the journey planning i’m tony steak too the funder relationship video director’s cut. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing to radio by wagner. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and by tello’s turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us, very pleased to welcome taylor shanklin to the show. She is vice president of product marketing and strategy at pursuant you know them, a full service fund-raising agency helping non-profits go beyond the ordinary to reach their goals. She has over decades spent serving non-profits her passion and purpose or to help charitable organizations connect the dots between marketing technology. And fund-raising she’s at t shank cycles and the company is that tony dahna slash pursuant radio. Welcome to l a shanklin. Hey, tony how’s it going very good. Well, you’re super loud. Excellent. Your your sound good. You sound loud and clear. Wonderful. E it down a little. Okay. That’s okay, what’s ah, yeah, i know you’re okay. You’re okay, we can go. We can always turn it down here. Don’t worry about that. Easier to turn it down and turn you up. What’s this t shank cycles. What is what is what? How are you involved in cycling? Well, that’s actually a great question. So i would say it is a twitter handle that i came up with back when twitter was newer and have a past experience of doing a lot of cycling that get out on the bike too much right now. But so i am glad you asked, because when i got involved in working with non-profits in my professional life, i also started getting involved and fund-raising and doing events fund-raising in my personal life and i did a lot of events with the a team in training program with leukemia, lymphoma society and so i created that name when i was doing a ton of cycling, getting out there and doing the hundred, you know, my old bike rides and was started to kind of tell my story from the road, ok, ok, i see i mean, you could have been doing no power cycling now in a studio in a competitive, you know, with the board up on the board up front and everybody knows where they stand, you know, what’s that power cycling is itjust power cycling way might have been doing that thing that you yeah, you have two children, so the priorities change, i understand, okay? You’ll get back to it’s a life it’s a life practice, it’s a life practice totally and like, we’ll be back, right? Like i actually really could go to the studio like mine and more yet, it’s a timing them. I’ve got a seven year old and a five year old and getting out for two three hour bike rises, just dip it in the gym. I’ve heard rumors to that effect from friends who have children. I do not. So i’ve heard those. I’ve heard those stories. Yes, we’re talking, we’re talking. About we’re talking about the donor journey this donorsearch durney where does this journey begin? And where does it end? Okay, you know, i think i would say that it never really ends, you know, and we can get into that. I mean, i think it begins at the, you know, first interaction that someone has with a new organization, okay? And i think that yeah, and talk about it because it is a journey, and we should be thinking about it, there’s a journey? Oh, yeah, we’re going to spend the hour we’re gonna spend here. We’re thinking about it. Yeah, you know, i wouldn’t even say it would it would. It would be a mistake to say that it ends even with a person’s planned gift because i mean, i do i do plan e-giving fund-raising and that’s just the beginning of a relationship with at that stage, you know, there’s continued vast engagement after someone makes ah ah gift in there a state plan and tells us about it, you know, by no means we say, ok, thanks you, you’re you’re dead to us now, you know, it wouldn’t know i don’t even intend that pun, but you know, no, eso it really just it ends when i would say maybe it ends when the person says, i don’t hear from you anymore, but hopefully that never you know, somebody is that overt and explicit about, you know, i’ve moved on. I don’t need you. I don’t know, but that rarely that happens. But it’s rare it’s rare. So yes, yes. No, i think that’s a great point about about plan giving on the work you do around that that’s. True. Because then that’s an opportunity to continue the relationship with the family members. Oh, yeah. Absolutely deepened. Yeah. Keeping and expand. Yes. I mean that you think about a planned gift. I mean, that you’re putting someone you’re putting an organization alongside your spouse, your children, your grandchildren in your will. And of course, there’s. Lots of other plan gives beyond that. But just the simplest example. I mean, imagine how much they love your work and the people doing it to put you alongside spouse and children, right? So that’s a that’s, a that’s, a deep commitment and that’s just, you know, and but by no means the end. Okay, so what? We’re starting you know we’re starting, we’re talking before that, um, you’re concerned that this is too transactional. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, i mean, i think that there is so much focus and something that my team and i are here talk about a lot of there’s so much focus on acquisition, right on getting getting those transactions through the door and not enough focus on the retention, the stewardship and really ultimately, the overall donor experience to keep people coming back. You know, i think that i don’t know why this is, you know, maybe this is culture or, you know, focused people wearing a lot of hats, trying to do a lot of things focusing on let’s we’ve got to get new donors, and we’ve got to get these orders, and but the cost to get a new donor is greater than the cost to keep someone who’s already a fan of yours right now. So i think that we really need to be focused on how do we drive that attention? How do we focus on building relationships, you know, taking it from transaction to transformational? We’ve had many guests say exactly that about retention versus acquisition it’s so much cheaper, too, to keep the donors you have and treat them well so that they do stay than it is to acquire a new donor. Yeah, so that’s, not new to non-profit radio listeners. What what is new is how were going toe make that all make that happen so that, you know, so you have. So you have this excellent paper demystifying the donor journey, and we have about a minute and a half before our first break. But i want to read one of the pull quotes from that paper. It’s an undeniable fact. The donor experience and how we steward them is directly tied to retention in a major and impactful way. And retention is the key to building a long term, sustainable fund-raising program. You want to flush that out a little bit in, like a minute or so. Yeah. I mean, i think it’s you know, just the idea that you have tio speak to people where they are. You have to speak to people in a way that resonates to how they are connected to why they gave you in the first place round. And we can get into this more after the break. But i like to look at what i think so often we get so stuck in our sector and what our sectors doing. But look at the brands, the products you buy, the brands that you buy and with the ones that you keep using over and over again and think about why that is and what value it brings to you so i could get, um, you know, we can tap into that a little bit of well, i agree. I think there are a lot of lessons from the commercial side. Let’s, take this thing this first break. It’s pursuing their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. Does that sound vaguely familiar to you? Because you’re listening to taylor and we talk about it right now so you don’t need it. But you have a friend. You have a friend. Who is less fortunate than you? Because they don’t listen to non-profit radio. You need to bring them in. Send them to tony dot m a slash pursuant radio. So they get the paper demystifying the donor journey. Then send them here to today’s show for all the more rich detail, the mystifying the donor journey. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio now, let’s, go back to the donor. Durney okay, tell her, let’s go where? Ah, you were suggesting, um, you know, we do. You know, wei have these commercial brands that means so much to us that we’re willing to accept their emails sometimes multiple times a day. We may even be willing to take their text messages. Um, you know, we don’t mind the contact we’ve asked for it. We’ve consented, of course, and we welcome it. So what can we learn from that side? The commercial side, teo import over to the non-profit side. Yeah. So i think there’s a lot. I think about you, like some of the brands. I ii go back, teo. And i’ll just, like admit my terrible coffee addiction right now get another way. But i think like, this is a good example. So i’m going to talk about starving, and i’m sure a lot of people talk about sarah back since the big company and okay, well, how do i how do i think about my non-profit like stuck, right? But here’s an example of, like, started recently, i’ve been going there for years. I worked there in college is a barista like, um, i’m pretty loyal also, you were employees? Yes, yeah, and so i started using the app really, you know, regularly to pay teo, even like order as i’m driving over there and teo kind of interact with how i want to purchase my starbucks in the morning, right? And i think there’s some interesting things that they do design that i’ve noticed and thought about, like this kind of keeps me coming back, it makes it easy, they keep rewarding me around areas where i want to be rewarded. And so i think a couple of interesting examples from that is like i get, you know, these, you know, they do these bonus star things or, like, hey, common in the next three days in order, a lot a or a breakfast sandwich and if you do it three times in the next five days, we will give you one hundred fifty bonus, right, which gets you like free drinks and stuff and what i’ve noticed in talking to other fellow friends who are startup storybooks addicts as well, is we’ve compared like the types of messages we get, i get regularly asked to come back for the things that i regularly by there, and my friend was talking about this recently was like, oh, yeah, i’m always getting, you know, hey, come back in and get a green tea, and i was like, oh, i don’t get that i was with beau car a lot saying so like, okay, they really like they’re taking the data and there, um, using automation, technology, whatever to speak to each of us individually, based on what we order because they know our habits, i think this is really relevant, tio what we dio in the nonprofit sector and thinking about there’s, different reasons and motivations that their donors have for supporting us for volunteering with us for doing on event, right? I did team in training, in part because i was interested in the cycling aspect and also because i had lost friends and relatives latto blood cancer, so there were very distinct connections, and i think we look at the donor experience and retention and stewardship and taking a page from starbucks and other companies that we in iraq every day, a lot of it has to do with really creating those more meaningful touchpoint by just looking at what it is that resonates with each individual person, a part of the problem is that some organizations will look at stewardship and this journey and delivering it as a cost rather than a revenue center. No. Oh, and you bring that out in the paper you wantto explain to us why we should be viewing this not a cz cost, but his revenue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, i do think that that’s the problem is on again. It goes back to the focus on acquisitions, as i think is often looks more at as revenue imbriano and stewardship is oh, yeah, ok ain’t that time for that right now, right? I gotta focus on bringing in new donors because we lost this money, donors or whatever it is. And if we start to realize that again looking back it all the way. Statistics out there say it’s easier to keep the customer than it is to get a new one, it’s cheaper than it is a revenue center, because, again, those are the people that are already in some way connected teo there already bought in at some level, right? Because they’ve already given to you in the past whether that is through a large gift or a ten dollars a day at some point gave to you and so tapping into why they gave to you is going and just communicating to them around that in that way, it’s going to in the long run be cheaper shit happened to again, and because you can do that through, you know, segment e and sending them just write email message, right? So is a revenue center because there’s so much opportunity to just keep those people loyal and coming back, turn them into monthly donors if they were one time donors, and i think if we start looking at it as a revenue center was opposed to cost dinner, that we will start placing the right amount of focus on it and recognizing to the long stream. Of potential revenue. You know, starbucks, amazon land’s end is one that i get a lot. I mean, they they expect to have you for life. Yeah, on and i don’t want to know how much i know. Yeah, that right part of the app is not your aggregate purchases through life that that is really for not caring, that you can’t write. You can’t tap that icon and and be disturbed. No, but you know, these brands and that’s just three examples. I mean, there’s thousands. You know, they want you for life on dh and that’s how, you know, they see it as valuable to keep you versus trying to get somebody new to come in. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, we want to think about this lifetime, you know, i asked you where’s the start, where’s it end. It is hard to identify agreement, you know, maybe it’s, like the first engagement is where it starts. But we want to be looking till still the person dies and then and maybe during their lifetime, like you suggested, we’ve cultivated their family spouse, children, you know, they might be a part of the organization now. So the family relationship might actually live on so, you know, right it’s all its long term, and it is absolutely revenue, and i love that the paper points it out, you know? Yeah, it’s not something to be to be cut, you know, given short shrift, something being what we put into this experience, this donorsearch durney relationship it’s interesting lately, i’ve been getting doing just some, you know, intel on asking friends of mine family, members of mine round former colleagues of mine, like what’s your experience when you donate what’s the follow-up like, you know, trying to get a little bit more of, like, a focus group type of quality of information on this and what’s interesting is that in most of the interviews i’ve been doing with my friends is they get kind of a standard receipt, right? Damn one or two of them, maybe has an exceptional experience that they can point out, but most of them and many of the people i’ve talked to look out, okay, i tried to ask friends who had donated to a least like a future of these per year, and most of the story is i got the standard receiving that. Kind of about it. You know, i just think that we can do a lot better than that. Now pursuing to his donor. Derive a gn up. Sorry, data driven data driven down. What? What data can you share that underlies all this as well? Yeah. I mean so, like you said, we’re data driven. We like teo look at the data to then reveal insights information into again, like i said, what makes that particular donorsearch what makes that particular person wants to be connected to the cause? There’s uninterested in one of my colleagues, was doing a webinar recently and was sharing anything. They’re full of an organization that we worked with that, you know way did some survey analysis on their on their general file went out surveyed and kind of create a point system of how satisfied their donors work and what we found waas a directly in there level of satisfaction with their ultimate lifetime value. So that’s just one example where, like people who, you know, had only one point of satisfaction. They were on the low level of satisfaction. Had a lifetime, you know, value increase that there points increased by like, one. Point there, like time value increased by ninety seven, but those who increase their satisfaction by five points um, their lifetime value increased by just under five dollars. So that’s just one example of looking at the data and then trying to actually start to segment people into different behaviors connections to the cause to try to figure out howto then move them in along the journey without organization. So this is our ally or ally of donorsearch atis faction, i’m just not clear about the the lifetime value, so if you have a five point increase in in donorsearch iss faction so it’s just under five dollars, but you don’t mean just over five dollars, over their whole life as a donor, do you? Yeah, her donor for the year. But what was interesting about it was i mean, this particular organization with large so it ended up being millions of dollars more money. Yeah, okay, because it’s like what can look like small potatoes. And again, i think that goes back to well, it just feels like it shouldn’t be a focus. It feels like it’s small potatoes, but like when you add it up altogether, it actually can be really impactful. Yes. Okay on dh. So that’s the case of a large file, but again, um, my point, you know, even if you if you don’t have dahna size file where five dollar increase is going to be millions of dollars, it’s still going to be a life time it’s an increase in lifetime value for for donors, and you just don’t know how valuable they’re going to become versus losing them and and cutting off all potential life, the remaining value. So, you know, you have to look at it, you know? You have to look at it this way, ok? Example of my personal life, where i’ve seen that worked really well? Is this a cycling example? You trying that want you want to compare my university for my husband? You’ve got in the way that those alumni organisations have stewarded us in very different ways, and he has been stewarded very well. I have not been stuart it well found and you know, what i’ve noticed is let’s look at the good example what i’ve seen them do in their stewardship of him over the years since graduation and the years ago is they? Started out with hey, you know, you know, graduated a couple of years ago if you’re ever and back in the area we’d love to have you come back and talk to class. Sure, you thought about what you’re doing now, that sort of thing, right? Recent graduates so, like, they started kind of pulling him back into the education and then started asking for small gifts, and then he ended up doing, you know, well, in his profession had, you know, kind of a job that many of the other business students would want to have, and as he kind of progress in that way, they progress in their stewardship and how much money they’re asking for it from the right, but they’re also constantly interacting with him in a very personal way. Sending impersonal thank you notes asking him, hey, i’m going to be in austin next month. Do you want to grab coffee and doing that sort of thing and it’s? Not like we’re even giving, like tons and tons of money because we don’t have those in tons of money to give but it’s just been interesting in watching that donorsearch durney of him versus mine. Where i basically just get phone calls at eight. Thirty at night when i have kids brushing their teeth, you know? And no matter how many times i say, please don’t call me at this time, i still continue to get called a time of night, and so i think that’s just a really riel example and my own personal life for i have seen stuart should go wrong, and so it should go well. And i will tell you we donate to his school more than mine. Yeah, okay, yeah, i mean, it’s, a classic mistake is just not listening to your donor’s preferences mean, you’ve you said it, you know, whether you’re donorsearch not, but it sounds like you’re small donor but doesn’t matter listening to the preferences, you know, and respecting them on dh that’s at the heart of what we’re talking about. You know, whether it’s window, i want to be contacted. How do i want to be contacted? You know, you may say text or email me and don’t call what do i want to be contacted for, you know, maybe i like scholarships. Maybe i like student activities. Maybe i you know, it’s unrestricted. Or is devoted to the arts or, you know, whatever. You know, this is the this is the, uh, categories around which weaken, weaken segment and technology enables this. Okay. Pursuing is also technology enabled talk about how the technology is available to do the segmentation we’re talking about and not lose personalization. Yeah. Yeah, well, i mean, there’s such a wide array of how how to do it anywhere from, you know, using technology that better segment people. So then using technology to communicate with them and an automated way that still gives them the personal message to, you know, let’s, just call it their segment. So we and looking at data doing like a pending additional information teo file, we can see people with people’s preferences on dh, then really group people into segments based around their interests and their behaviours, and then message to them in the digital world or in the male world based around those behaviors. You know, i got a male peace sent to me a week or so in the last week. And i thought this was a great example i send to give online. Ah, but i still, you know, well, often receive mail from the organization that i give two online, and this was i think, the first time i’ve seen it, they sent me. They did send me an appeal now asking for a gift. But within that envelope, i also had, um, a communications preference, little quick, like, check these boxes. This is what you currently have told us you want to receive. Is that still accurate? And i don’t know why. Maybe i just haven’t been paying attention, but i can’t be like a. Hadn’t. It would seem that much before was a good example of me being able to very quickly, you know, that the organization being able to include it in a piece of mail, they were already standing, and for me, too, very quickly feel like, oh, they are tryingto listen, this is nice, you know. Yes, we all. We all want to be heard, um, let’s. So let’s, let’s. Uh, go back to the paper, demystifying the donor journey, set out some some methods, strategies for, for doing better, you know, for standing out, and one of them is teo have processes. Business rules around this, this journey, and we just have, like, a minute and a half or so before break. Yeah, i think yes. On paper, we outlined first about way alan guthrie stumbling blocks, and then we outlined for different ways to overcome them on the first one, i think it’s really important, establishing business rules, business rolling processes, so that can be everything from getting just alignment within departments in the organization to dedicating staff, too. You know, safe. I’m gonna own stewardship on detention, the experience, um two, looking at a subset of your data and doing kind of a small test on the substance of data around stewardship, and created an interrupt process from that. Let me stop you on that one. Testing for testing, for example. What? So testing let’s. See, i actually was talking to a colleague recently. Gave an example of, and she has to be an organization that did did events. I thought this was a really great example of a test where they surveyed about the events and found that their wass. One thing that really would throw off the experience of the participants, the event. And when they discovered that one thing by just surveying event goers and they were able to fix it and their event seven infection with way up. So that’s an example of looking at one small thing to test and then making a change from it. So yes, i liked it. It was successful for them when they when they were ableto again. A okay, we have to. We’re going to keep talking. About what? With strategies are in the paper. I’ve got to take a break. Wagner, cpas, here’s an excerpt from their latest testimonial. They’re accessible, they care about their clients. End quote, can you say that about your accounting and audit firm? Ah, yeah. Not so sure. Okay, check out wagner, go to the site, take a look, then pick up the phone and talk to the coach. Tomb one of the partners, one of the many partners there. He will take care of you. Very good guy. C p a very good guy. Very good guy. First, second, wagner, cpas. Dot com. Now, time for tony’s. Take two. I’ve got the full version in video of build your grantmaker relationships this’s a panel i moderated at the foundation center. We played it on the show last month, and that was that’s the broadcast version. Now i’m releasing the director’s cut it’s the full show roughly ninety minutes unedited it’s almost double the time of what you heard on this show last month. Never before released footage unedited. We talked about relationships before you’re funded. How to introduce your organization to funders, what to, uh, what to do to make that relationship strong while you’re funded and keep it strong insider tips on what not to do mistakes not to make so i had to cut out a lot too fit the ninety minutes into the show. Now you can get the full content director’s cut the full experience, which she also, by the way, includes my opening with a story from my stand up comedy sets go to twenty martignetti dot com that’s, where you will find the full video, let us return to taylor shanklin and the donor journey she is vice president of product marketing and strategy at pursuant and tell her look, i’d like to keep going with something. Strategies. Because i you know, we’ve we’ve laid out what the what the ideal is. And what the problem’s, khun b, let’s, let’s. Keep going with what some strategies are you suggest in the paper. Step back and consider the ideal experience for donors. Yes, it’s about taking a taking a moment of pause and really mapping out with the journey should be so you don’t go on a trip without pulling out your gps these days, right? You don’t plan a wedding up without, you know, pulling together ah book and and a plan and i don’t think most breaks on the donor no different. You know, if you are goingto work so hard on getting people into the door, then we need to work just as hard hyre making sure they have a great experience, and one of the ways you can do that is through doing a donor journey. Back-up um, we do a lot of work on on our team here, pursue it with organizations are looking to map out the stone experience, what is the full cycle look like? What are different touchpoint that we want to make that our intentional along the way, based on the ways that a donor is interacting and engaging with us, so i think it’s really important toe think about a plan nearly and create that map before you just dive right into a particular direction that you’re going to go with you. With you through the journey mapping this is actually you’re actually writing it, you know, putting on a board for everybody toe everybody to contribute, to write you actually mapping what you’re doing and suggestion is now what? What’s the ideal, how could we streamline it? Maybe how can we make it? Maybe they introduced. They invite you, they meet more people, you know? How can it be broader? We’re trying. We’re actually writing this, mapping it out on a board, right? Yes, yes, exactly. So it’s, like work with we’ll sit down and do working sessions to really kind of map it out do like the like a post it notes on a wall. Sort of a thing, you know, looking at okay, what’s the first experience our donors will have, how does the process of altum that what one of the ways someone might come in on donate to us the first time, and then what is the touchpoint we want to make on that for some organization. It might be looking and trying to understand donors connections better to the mission. And we talked a little bit about that and then really focusing on okay, how do? We align our strategy and our donor experience based on this connection for other organizations like hyre ed institutes or hospitals, organizations like that. It might be more about tryingto understand the point of last connections. Um, and then determine. Okay, what makes the most sense? Mazarene touchpoint with that organization? What you mean? Is that what what’s this? A point of last connection? What is that? So that could be, you know, point of last connection went to let’s let’s say just in the case of have you hyre at or something point of last connection might have been that day, you know, went to went to a game last season or something like let’s. See if it fits in athletics department or something like that. Or it could be gate that they give a gift. So i just kind of various from organisations. Organisations based on the type of cause that you are okay, it’s really? Just sitting down and uniquely mapping that out. Um so what makes sense for the organization? Yeah. Ok. So it’s like the like they last engagement or something? That’s. What? That’s what? Yeah, last contact connection. Okay, okay. I’m trying. I want to keep you out of drug in jail. I’d hate to throw you in there. It sze not too it’s. Not too hard to get out, but let’s, just keep you out from the beginning. Um, yeah, okay, um, yeah, i think that the journey mapping i mean, i think this could be valuable for everybody who’s involved in the in the engagement process to be sitting down and saying, you know, this is what we’re doing and, you know, when you see it visually, i think you’re going toe recognize, you know, where is disjointed, where it could be much more duitz personalized, you know, not so maybe fragmented, you know, when you when you actually see it and talk about it, i think a lot flick comes out of these meetings, right? Yeah. And what really interesting comes out of the sweden because it really does get into talking about the feelings that a constituent has at those engagement points. Right? So how does someone feel when they engage with giving you a gift or engaged with you by going to your gala or going to your five k, um and then focusing around, you know? Okay, how? Do we then kind of really tapped into that feeling that kind of, like moment of truth that someone maybe has with your organisation at that time of interacting with you and then expanding upon it? Yeah, expanding, you know, we’re always tryingto deep in the relationship, you know, you know what their interest is, but you know, what is what is amazon always do when you buy something customers who bought this, we’re also interested in these dozen things no it’s like it’s, uh, what’s that it’s something in marketing, grab a finger, take a hand, you know, you’re like a donor gives you their finger, but, you know, you want a little more you want, you know what doesn’t want the finger? You want the whole hand, so offer them offer the more i mean, you’re not just literally, you know, you know, grabbing, but you’re offering more, you’re offering to deepen. We know you met this person on our team. I would like to introduce you, you know, next coffee. I’d like to bring my colleague who you haven’t met yet, you know, you know, finger in hand, you know? No, that that’s, exactly. I love it. That you mentioned you have the amazon example, you might like these other products and, you know, just the the thought process and even like, okay, i ordered something and i’m going to get a text provocation like, hey, it’s, on the way, just so it’s like it almost like, keeps this engagement point where? Okay, cool. I know the shift, i know i can expect it and like he said, put that into the non-profit sectors like, hey, you went to our gala, did you know that we’re doing? I walk in a couple months, right? Did you know that the’s other people in our area are also volunteering on dh they’re going to do ah, meet up or, you know, whatever it is it’s figuring out how to let people know about other ways dahna to be involved in connect, i think at the end of it, it’s, like people supported cause because there’s some sort of very meaningful connection, um and so finding ways to tap into that connection and that good feeling. I’ve never talked anybody who didn’t have a good feeling after supporting a cause helping making real meaningful impact on the world, right? Like it’s, great it’s, just part of a, you know, a reason why you and i probably, like, and people listening like beans in this industry. It feels great to feel like you’re making an impact, and donors feel great when they’re making an impact, so tap into that more and connect with that feeling and keep them on that high. You know, i think it’s really important. You feel it in your heart, and and also there’s, no rocks, there’s neuroscience research that shows that donating activates pleasure centers, the same centers that get activated when reading chocolate, having sex. I can’t think of another pleasurable things, but it’s, hard to go beyond those but theo ultimate chocolate being the penalty, and then sexy krauz being the altum. You know, but no, it sze bona fide. I mean, the research of russell James at texas tech is 1 of the universities in texas shows this the brain lights up. The pleasure centres light up, and we’re not talking about eight figure or even seven or six figure gifts. But, you know, like a ten dollar gift ignites your pleasure centers in the brain. So, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, emotional and it’s also physical. Yeah. So, you know, get a finger, grab a hand. Okay. Um, digital experiences you what you’re looking for immersive digital experiences. Where you what is pursuing talking about? Yeah, well, i mean, i think it’s so much that you khun do now in the digital world of that it is e-giving and i know i can be very overwhelming at the same time. Um, i definitely know from talking toa non-profit organizations around, you know, sometimes i get out some of the conferences on give talks on things you could be doing in digital. And a common thing that i hear is that, um, you know, it’s overwhelming. You know, we don’t know how to do it on the staff. It sounds expensive. But what i think really interesting, this technology is making it morning testable easier round, even less expensive should do cool stuff in the genital digital world. I mean, some of the work that we do immersive experiences and say that i think i’ve been cool are creating some some fun survey, some fun quizzes, um, that really kind of tap into again tap into what are your motivations around? E-giving through an interesting digital survey or or a quiz that it’s just kind of fun that maybe teachers, something about the the mission that the donor didn’t know? I was looking at one the other day that we did and for a health care organization, so it the quiz kind of took people through and gave a lot of interesting one that related to that mission. So there’s there’s, i think ways toe engage with people in that way in an interesting way sound this is not not something that we’ve done, something that i personally have been fascinated with lately is trying to figure out how to create interesting, more personal conversation through digital technologies like chat loss and stuff like that. And so, you know, kind of playing around with those what they look like, there’s, one that i found of an organization that has a facebook chat latto and it’s, a faith based organization, and they have a chat bought with the pope and i found it really fun and interesting it’s a facebook chat, but so it’s on a platform that i’m on and it sort of engages you threw, like, hastened the provoc but, you know, did you know that easter is coming up? What i found interesting is that was like the initial when i originally just kind of wanted to go test it out and see what it was doing and how it worked. Yeah, that was some of the kind of, like, just fun kind of quirky ways that have engaged me in the beginning, and this is all autumn either, right? But as i continue to play around with it now, it’s doing it’s, giving me more information that connects to the mission e-giving me yesterday, it, like popped up with a message on my phone i was like, okay, let me look at this thing again and give me interesting facts that related to the mission and took me through sort of like the quiz like, did you know, like, how many people in this world you think don’t have access to clean water and gave me a multiple choice and kind of, like took me to this quiz? So i think that’s in just an example of different ways through digital, that we can really engage with people and more immersive kind of personal ways we have to take a break, but when we come back, i’m going to ask you about making surveys fun, that’s interesting, and i don’t think we see a lot of that tillers credit card in payment processing it’s, a long tale of passive revenue waiting for your non-profit you encourage businesses to switch their credit card processing to tell us, and your organization will get fifty percent of all the revenue that tello’s earns on every single transaction indefinitely, the tail doesn’t end. We’re talking about long term relationships here. This is one that doesn’t end because they have a hundred percent satisfaction. Send your potential supporters to tony dot m a slash tony tell us look at the video you got to live listen love assed part of the relay it’s part of the part of the listener journey we’re talking about the donor journey the listener journey with non-profit radio must include the live listener love it’s got to go out and i think it’s going tio! Tampa, florida, brooklyn, new york, multiple new york, new york always grateful for that i’m brooklyn! Welcome live lesser love on dh, columbus, ohio, tacoma, washington, new bern, north carolina reliable there live lesser love to each of our domestic live listeners and then no hesitation let’s go abroad. Chiba, japan! Konnichi wa, germany, gooden, dog that’s all we’ve got so far live listen love, but we got to the podcast pleasantries, of course, to the over twelve thousand that’s where the vast majority the audience is over. Twelve thousand podcast listeners pleasantries to you grateful that you are with us whenever you are listening with binging on a beach. Well, well, you could be a different hemisphere. Binging on a beach yeah, that’s probably possible or binging while you, uh, while you shovel snow you could be doing that, too. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our am and fm affiliate station listeners throughout the country all over. The country so glad that you’re grateful really not just glad grateful that your station carries us and that you are listening analog, it still exists. Am and fm listeners affections to you. Now back to the donor journey with taylor. Tell her, can you help us make surveys more fun? You mentioned that and ah, it catches me. What? What? What can we do to make surveys more fun? Yeah, so what we’re talking about creating immersive digital experiences, right? Digital provides a really easy and cost effective way so latto listen to your donor’s toe asked them questions to hear what’s on their minds in the form of surveys. I think that we often want to ask too many questions that air too revealing sometimes, and it just makes people shut down right right away. So i think a way to make more fun of first just make them shorter, okay, don’t ask twenty questions four or five yeah on like i like to think about if you’re thinking about yesterday that you want to create, what is it that you’re really trying to understand and ask questions around that i feel like often times we try to include way too much demographic data and stuff like that in the and surveys and it there’s other ways to get that there’s other time to get that, um and so making the survey more fun starts with just, like, not making it. So i think that, yeah, i also think that survey our quiz can be a great way to, you know, introduce kind of a human, more human element. It can be a way to even ask people questions and kind of a humorous way that still gets at what you’re tryingto understand about, um, i know that based on the mission of the cause of the organization, using humor can be sometimes a great area, right? But i definitely have i think that there’s ways to do it, and when you think about, like, we’ll get the it was a facebook quiz is that, you see, you know, pop up on your facebook feed and how you see your friends kind of, like, get involved in like, oh, what star wars character you like stuff like that? People do it because, like, it’s just kind of funny people like humor, and they like to engage with humor. So i do think that there is an opportunity to be more thoughtful about how do you make it kind of delightful? Um, through either humor through making the quiz on the survey shorter and easier to consume, we talk about brand no there’s, i think there’s a big advantage to having lightheartedness as part of your brand totally don’t take yourself so seriously, it’s it’s not people are not mocking you when they’re laughing at you. They’re laughing with you. Ah, you know, be lighthearted, you know, i look at it, i mean, the major brand in the world. Google, you know, they messed with their logo of seasonal and holidays, you know, when you see them, do doo rim sickle things with their logo and that’s a that’s a small example. But i think it’s a it’s not just nothing wrong with but i think it’s advantageous tohave, lightheartedness, and and fun associated with your brand totally because people connect with that look it’s just on human nature. We like to connect with that. And, you know, i’ve been reading a couple of books on branding recently and it’s like on the one that i was reading, i think it was getting the two of them mixed up because i’ve been reading them kind of side by side, but there’s, this one co-branded intervention and one of the main points to be made in the book was just don’t be boring. It sounds so simple, but i think we often can just, like, be boring without even realizing that we’re being born and so have a little fun with things like surveys on dh pulling and quizzes, i think it’s a good of wait tio have some fun and to be lighthearted, like there’s definitely the time in the place for the message that, you know, sharing a sad story rights, you are sharing the story that’s going to inspire or hit a nerve and maybe a lot less positive way, right? But we’ll have in their ultimately too get people don’t want to give to it, but then i think there are things like surveys and quizzes, you can have fun and create that, you know, when on dh kind of have more of a personality there? Yeah, i do that with this show and listeners may disagree that there’s humor in this show, but it’s ah it’s certainly attempted there’s. I’m amusing myself. I always say, you know, i amuse myself if no one’s laughing. I’m amusing myself, and the listenership is his growing, so i’m not worried. I like human. You have to say that otherwise, you know, i’ll shut your mic off so you have no choice you’re under, you know, would you like a hostage? Okay, let’s ah, yeah. Listeners made discreet. Actually, i got e i’ll share this later on. I’ll share something later on. Somebody didn’t quite get me hyre don’t take me seriously. You know, if you’re not sure that i’m probably not serious if you have to ask that i’m that i’m not you should know that by now, after a seven and a half years old going on eight years. Um okay, uh, the journey, the beginning of the journey you wantto do you think the beginning of the journey is the most critical stage would make sense, but, you know, flesh it out for us. Yeah. So i mean, it is just like, you know, i’ll go back to something that i actually said ten years ago. It’s? Fine, because i think it’s still true the beginning. Of the journey is the honeymoon period, right? Just like when you first get married, the honey moon might be a lot more fun than when you’ve been married for ten years, right? Oh, yes, i’ve heard the rumors to that effect also way certainly not my personal experience it’s certainly not my personal experience, but i’ve heard i’ve heard people talk about that. Yeah, so you know, the first what we found is doing actually research with ah, relationship fund-raising with our partners and friends at at regar e is that the first three years are really critical time, period, three years relationship thinking like the first the first interaction, carrion okay kapin into the motivations and behind the giving and really work on that relationship on. So i guess i consider that sort of the honeymoon period if you’re even looking for opportunity to re engage people start first with people who have engaged with you within the past one, two, three years. Okay? And then there’s a question. I feel like i would not track a little, you know, that’s. Okay. And we just have about a minute left way. Have to wrap up, but but there’s evidence that if you khun, hold a donor for three years than their lifetime value is going to be greater, and the relationship will last that much longer, much longer. Right, right, right, right, exactly. And that’s. Why? I think it’s so important when thinking about the like doing a journey. Mathos osili focusing on that. Those first key interactions people are having when they come in. Make sure if you do one thing, make sure that that initial interaction that you give to someone after the first time they’ve gave given to you for the first time, they’ve shown up to your event for the first time they participate. Donated to a participant in your event. Make sure that that first interaction back that first thank you. That first effort of gratitude. Is it really good? Andi, start there and then push it out from there. But that, you know, first impressions mean a lot. So i think it’s really important. Taken to account what your first impressions going to be? Yeah. First impressions way no, we know the value. Okay, we have to leave it there. Taylor. Thank you so much. Hey, thanks for having me. Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you, taylor shanklin, vice president of product marketing and strategy. And pursuant to she’s at t shank cycles and the company tony dahna slash pursuant radio next week, idealware sze executive director karen graham is going to publicly release their latest report. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio wagner, cpas, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps, dot com and tell those credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez on this great music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. Sting duitz are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentiality tune in every tuesday nine to ten eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c. Are you feeling unhappy with your body, shape or size? Ever feel out of control with food? I’m elizabeth from nourish the soul, and on the show, you will uncover the route to these imbalances and discover a permanent solution. Latto having a healthy relationship to food and your body. Join us every thursday morning at eleven a, m eastern time on talk radio dot. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com hyre into comics, movies and pop culture at large. What about music and tv, then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dellaccio, your host on talking alternative dot com. 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Nonprofit Radio for March 16, 2018: Date Your Donors

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Jonah Halper: Date Your Donors

Jonah Halper is author of the book “Date Your Donors.” He wants you to enjoy the full breadth of fundraising relationships. He’s founder and partner of Altruicity consulting. (Originally aired 3/4/16)

 

 

 

 


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with logar mania if you talked to me about the idea that you missed today’s show date your donors. Jonah helper is author of the book. Get your donors. He wants you to enjoy the full breath of fund-raising relationships he’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting and he’s with me for the hour. This originally aired on march fourth twenty sixteen on tony’s take two new relationship videos responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio and by weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream durney dahna may slash tony tell us let’s get started with jonah helper and get your donors. Jonah helper is author of the new book date your donors. He wants you to enjoy the full breath of fund-raising relationships he’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting and he’s with me for the hour. So glad to welcome jonah helper halper halper back to the studio has been a guest before. His new book is date your donor’s he’s, a non-profit marketer and fundraiser with over ten years of experience specializing in new donorsearch acquisition and engaging gen x and wires. He’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting. They’re at altruicity dot com. The book is at gate, your donor’s dot com and he’s at jonah helper already chuckling. Yeah, welcome back to the studio. Welcome back to the show. I haven’t thrilled in here. Thank you so much. Good to see you. Good to have you here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. How did you get to the concept of dating and donors? So i started doing ah, training fund-raising training a couple of years ago. And i just found i started using a lot of dating analogies that was very natural on daz. I started tio go down that rabbit hole of discussing, you know, how fund-raising is is akin to relationships in courtship and attraction and things along those lines. I started to think about about my career as a fundraiser, and i noticed that there were even even the people who, you know. Classically trained in fund-raising and, you know, had the experience, some fundraisers were unbelievable at the craft, you know, there’s some fundraisers who, you know, we’re okay, they’re mediocre or they were just, you know, kind of putting in the time and they’re doing the kind of, ah, the best breast practices of the business, but there was a clear line between those who were the born fundraisers or seemingly born fund-raising and those who weren’t and i started to wonder why that wass and it wasn’t something you would able to see in a resume, it wasn’t something that was just, you know, you can look and see their track record and see why that was the case. It was experiential, like i would interact with these people, and that was it was kind of like an use of cool, like, it was just like you would be around them and you would be, you know, wanting to be around that would be attracted to and as that started to take shape, i started teo kind of more put, ah, structure around it to say, what is it that those type of people have that makes people want to? Be around them as a fundraiser or as just a human being. And, you know, one of the interesting kind of correlations i found was it was very someone of my high school experience, which is you, weren’t you were you were not so cool in hyre i wish i was on the other side. But you know what it wass is i went to a boarding school, all boys, a tremendous amount of testosterone. And basically, you know, the need and the desire to be on the in crowd was the most important thing to make. Yeah, i i spent so many waking hours just trying to figure out the chess moves that would take me to be in the inner circle. And what it did is it drove me further and further away. I became like the hanger on ah, and i thought i was i thought was a cool guy. I thought i had, you know, certain skills. I thought i you know, i was in a terrible ballplayer. Like the things that were important to high school boys. I was a terrible ballplayer. I i got my my varsity letter in announcing oh, i as one step below cheerleaders, annan varsity letter ship. So, i mean, i dealt with these things with a sense of humor and a nem barris ingley a large number of times. It would more be people laughing at me then with me. Right, which only, which only further perpetuates that downward spiral. Yeah, three guys, a joker reason he’s the jester. But he’s not, you know, it’s. Not even always laughing with them. Like i said so. All right, so i dealt with it. That was my athletic outlet was announcing right there and managing rights to carry soccer balls on and off the field. Make sure nobody was on the bus on time. So you’re announcing a managing in-kind of understandably why, you kind of self selected into certain kind of career. Yeah. Now, now announcing right for myself. Exactly. I’m not shepherding a bunch of high school kids on a bus on then announcing touchdown. Thie irony. The irony is i knew any i still know nothing about sports, right? I mean, i have trouble distinguishing football from baseball. Well, so have a great fundraiser is that you can talk intelligently on any subject for about two and a half minutes, lord, help you. If they want to have a deeper dive in texas well, two and half minutes they’ll be laughing that will be actually laughing at me. But i football is the one with the field goals, i think. Yes, yes. Your baseball has the three pointers. No, basketball is through your basketball to report. Okay, so so the irony was, you know that there’s somebody whispering what? What to announce almost exact my ear. Oh, that’s got a touchdown. Touchdown number fourteen that’s? Uh oh, yeah, here he is, steve berman, who was a friend of mine. I couldn’t remembers number, but that’s how i dealt with my awkwardness and oppcoll snusz so? So where i’m going with this is is that i found there were certain kind of character traits of that of that high school kid who seem to be the center of attention. And then i found that things don’t really change from high school things like yeah, i know i don’t i hope i’m in outlier and that in your theory, i’m an aberration. We’ll know what it does is it way kind of grow into a lot of the things that we are lacking in high school, high school, you’re just naturally you’re trying to figure yourself out there’s not necessarily the confidence there, you know, there’s a discovery that’s going on there so it’s not a natural thing for you kind of say, this is who i am, these with skills i bring that confidence that’s kind of grown over the years, but that what i’m alluding to when i’m kind of referencing now is the fact that confidence and clarity whether whether it’s real or not on the high school level, right, that perceived confidence is something that people are attracted to, the fact that you say i know who i am, i know what i stand for. This is what, whether for good or for bad, this is who i am, people want to be around people who have that who have the kind of that confidence say this is what we stand for. This is what i’m excited about. This is where i’m headed, and i want you to join me and confidence and clarity or a couple of things that were going to talk about yes, because as you’re suggesting, those are traits of good fundraisers. Those those outlier fundraisers that are at the at the high end? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool. Uh, what’s. So why don’t we go out a little early for a break right now? It seems like natural place and we come back, we will dive into the details of date. Your donors stay with us. It’s. Time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. They want you to be intentional. Deliberate about stewarding your donors so you don’t lose them. This is very much what jonah and i are talking about today. Same subject different take pursue. It will help you create and fine tune your donorsearch stewardship plan paper is that tony dahna slash pursuant radio now, back to date your donors, jonah helper. My guest. We’re talking about his new book date your donors. Um, you want to start with authenticity, and so ah, this is where i was not so authentic in high school, but i believe i’m much more authentic now, but sure, authenticity a great trait for fundraisers. Yeah, you know, it’s it’s interesting. Because when you are in the business of raising money, you’re interacting with a lot of people. Who are high net worth who travel in certain circles? Have a certain lifestyle, it’s easy to kind of pander to them and try to say, you know, i want to be on the inside so i can get money from them. That’s the kind of at the perspective especially young fundraiser has is how can i get into this this network? And what i was when i mention before and when i think applies when it comes to authenticity, is andi also packaged in the non-profit, you know, jargon of mission and vision, the idea is that you should know what your folks what you’re standing for there is a few of my jonah helper and working with a special needs charity, and this is my my job and my mandate and what i’m raising money for. I’m not jonah helper, mr country club. I’m not jonah helper, mr poker player, you know, hanging, hanging out with with these individuals, they may become friends and that’s fine, and they may become my network, but i’m coming to them not underneath the guise of being a buddy of being one of their friends just being part of their network, but rather, i’m coming through the through the lens off my mission, what i’m in the business of doing, where i’m headed with this, what i hope to accomplish with my mission and how these individuals can be a part of that experience in a way authenticity is not me trying to fit into their world, mohr them trying to fit into my world, and and that requires me not to be focused on myself, right? And i know what i am, what i stand for, but rather interact with them, and then hopefully they see what who i am or what i stand for, that authenticity, what i’m really in the business of doing, and they’ll gravitate today, and they’re hopefully attracted to it, right? Not metoo them but them to me. So let’s, break this down because you’re talking about authenticity of the person and also authenticity of the organization cracked. All right, so let’s, start with the person. This is where we get to confidence, you know, you you want yeah, yeah, you just don’t want people to be molding themselves to what they think, the donor that they’re meeting that day or that our wants them to be right. But be true to yourself. Well, they’ll see right through that in there is if you’re the type of person who’s going to be mike mission creep like, you know, you know, i may be the business of doing this well, but you’re excited about that. Well, let me chase you down there about you know, about that that i know what i’m in the business of doing this is who i am, what i stand for that person’s a hedge fund, you know? Ah, man or woman, i am a fund-raising professional for this organization. That’s what i do know this is who i am and what i do if the if the stars align and they’re interested in what i’m doing, they’ll support it. If this is not of interest to them, it is not a priority for them if it’s, you know, not meant to be it’s not meant to be, but the moment i start chasing people down this, then i’m effectively being that kind of aggressive door knocker to say, you know, give, give, give me, me, me, i i and that’s why i don’t want to be playing now, but what about when you get into situations like you’re meeting with a donor and we get into a political conversation or something religious, you know where you’re your stars are not aligned with theirs, you know, maybe you’re different political spectrum, different into the political direction, then they are how do we how do we stay authentic? So it’s? Interesting, because i’ll give a kind of ah kind of case in point, you know, there’s some people who use social media, where there’s like a clear demarcation line between the personalizing, the professionalizing we’ll have, this is my missing my business account like this is my business facebook this is my organizational facebook presence on this is my personal place facebook president and never shall the twain you know me that that is not my approach. My attitude is my my priorities, my belief system, you know, what’s important to me what i don’t think it’s important to me is as much ah factor in my relationship with these individuals than than anything else. The fact they may not agree with me politically, or the fact that may not agree with me what it is, then that’s that’s their prerogative, but at the same time, it’s nothing to do with the mission vision might cause i think mature people can make that clear separation between what is relevant, teo, the supporting whatever the good work that i’m doing other educational, humanitarian or are you know, whatever it is as and what jonah helper you know, does on his on his free time now, there’s importance of someone being trustworthy and having credibility and respect and you can ruin that by what’s going on in your personal life. So there is absolutely a certain amount of of measure that goes into what you’re doing. Discretion, yes, absolutely absolute discretion. But because people look and people see and if you want them, if you want them to give you their money and to trust you with their money to accomplish a certain good, if they think that you are not a trustworthy person because of the way you live or your reckless in some way or form, then that obviously is going to hurt you on the business side. But i think that things that are whether it’s politics or religion, you can agree, be respectful and you can agree to disagree and i don’t think that will ah, bill deepti, be a deal breaker. In fact, what i find is that when people know jonah helper father for jonah helper, you know, his religious level or his political involvement that just shapes me as a person, and i find that the people who have become fast friends within become my donors are people who become friends and in a bigger way than just, you know, thank you for your check, and i’ll keep your loophole. You’re good how the good work is, you know, playing out it’s become more friends, i think a good example that is, when i had, you know, a couple of my last children, i would get presents from some of my donors because it was clear that i wasn’t just fundraiser was jonah halper, of course, you know, help her father. Father? Yeah, yeah, so that s so there’s, of course, abounds there, okay? And i see that playing more now in our presidential election year i politics come up more in conversation that with donors, potential donors when i’m with clients, then you know, then even just six, six or eight months ago, if you’re too highly spackled like if you’re like, you know what i mean? Spite i i was like, like, mr clean jeans, there’s no power there’s no depth to you outside of your job, people are not going to find a way not going can connect with you, there’s not gonna be that human connection because your justice, you know, tom aton doing the work of your organization and you’re not a human being. So i think i think those other things that add flavor, not color and deep in the relationship, obviously again with certain amount of discretion depends on how you live your life. But but, yeah, i think that’s so important people realize who you are as a person and even not just as you’re, you know, you mentioned social media, but just in conversation, you know, you don’t have to be the raging donald trump or bernie sanders fan. You could be respectful of the other person and say, you know, you know, o r, you know, maybe you don’t even need to in a conversation say what your aspirations are and who you hope will win just oh, you know, okay, yeah. He’s cool or hillary’s lullabies finite. You know, matt, i see points in her, and most people are not going to say who do you stand? Who do you want? You know, they’re not going to challenge that way and that’s another thing also is that when there is a conversation where you want this is that you have a position or you feel strongly about something, i think that if you’re open minded person or healthy person, those those conversations can be interesting without devolving into, you know, for violence. So i think i think that you could you could have those conversations, and just by virtue of the business, you have those conversations because you could be at a country club, you could be on the golf course, and you’re not talking business for ninety percent of the time you’re talking family talking politics, you talking religion and time all the things that everyone talks about. S o yet you have to be kind of present and in that experience and be really yeah, and you want to get beyond the small talk? Yeah, you make the point that your donors, you know, we’re looking for common ground, so we start conversations often with weather right? Because everybody shares that. But, you know, if that goes on for more than like a minute and a half, i start to get antsy way got to get further than the weather, and they know why you’re there like there’s, no qualms that the reason why you’re in their offices because they talk about the mission in vision of your organisation, what you hope to do and why you need their money. So it’s it’s not like you pulled the wool over the eyes. We’re talking, you know, baseball and the next thing you know, we’re talking money. They know why you’re there so it’s just a matter of of guests making the connection, finding the connection, whether it’s through friends, your common connections, whether it’s, tio shared interests, whatever case, maybe, but they’re expecting the having a deeper conversation about what you’re doing, and they respect you for what you’re doing. You know, this is that was this is the business that you chose to be in your raising money for a worthy cause and making wonderful impact. So there’s nothing to shy away from its not fund-raising is not a dirty word here a lot. Of these traits, but all of these traits, or that you’re seeking in fundraisers, can’t be hyre ascertained from a from a resume, and you mention this in the book, too, that that, you know, it’s a personal business, you want to meet people before? I mean, obviously there’s gonna be a personal interview, but you don’t find resumes, a very valuable tool for recruitment, basically what i’m saying, right? I think i think in general you’ll find word of mouth is always the strongest, you know is whether you’re looking for new business or whether you’re looking tto find their best people. Companies around the world have wonderful policies where there’s incentives if you refer people to the company and they get a job there for existing employees. There’s a reason for that? Because if you’re willing to put your reputation on the line to bring someone in who you think would be a good fit for the company, then that then that person has a better chance of being a good person as opposed to just another resume and an inbox so there’s absolutely value ah, stronger value and sitting in front of somebody and interacting with them. In a in a real way to be able to determine if they’ve kind of got the personality and the kind of the gumption to do the work and do the fund-raising i needs to get done that you will never be able to get by just looking at a piece paper. Yeah, how poised are they right? Right? I mean, you might think, well, you know, the interview is an artificial, um, environment and there’s high stress, you know, for the interviewee, but so is fund-raising i mean, if you’re meeting a donor for the first time, that’s a bit of high stress, a potential donor for the first time, actually, if i could show a quick story that i think way don’t really care way stay in the abstract, i don’t know i love no, we love stories. All right, so it’s interesting. You say that you know, it’s high stress experience interview process. When i got my first job, i met with i want to like a job fair, for it was for the jewish federation system, which is like the united way for the jewish community and it was a national it was the national umbrella. Organization that hosted this job fair and there must have been twenty different cities represented the had their own local jewish federation, and i went to this Job fair is super green 20 year old kid, i did not even know what i was applying for. I was like, i want to help the jewish community that’s all i knew, i didn’t know fund-raising know anything on i start interviewing for all these jobs called campaign associate? I thought political campaign no, no campaign means fund-raising so i didn’t know that when i was interviewing, but i’m all the interviews that i had, there were what you’ve described grilling me, you know? What would you do in this scenario? And then you’re at an event and this happens, you know, a lot of that kind of stuff. And as someone who is new, that was jarring. I didn’t know even what to proud of process that what the right answer was this is the wrong answer. There was one organization there representing one federation there from baltimore, maryland, with me who ended up becoming my first boss kind of ruin the punch line there, but he didn’t ask me any. Questions about fund-raising or non-profit what would you do in a difficult situation? Not none of it. It was. What books do you like to read? You like wwf wrestling? Or is it calling out? It was all of this random stuff, and i sat with him for forty five minutes, and we just, like, talked and at the end of the forty five minutes there’s, like, all right, we’re done, and i was totally confused because especially in context of all the other interviews that i just had, this one was like, like, he was, like, wasting my time. Yeah, i got to call backs. He was one of them and i ultimately went to baltimore ended up starting my career in baltimore for three years there, and i finally mustered the courage to ask him. Obviously, once i have the job because i want to, you know, scare amount of hiring me, i said, you know what? Why did you hire me? He said, you have a nice smile, you carry a good conversation, the rest you’re going to learn on the job, and that was very powerful because that was him sitting across from a and saying is he a nice guy? Does even nice smile? Is he? Is he great interact with? Because that part is harder to teach the art and that’s the part that you master that from high school is a part that i like god it’s trial by fire? Exactly. I got that out of high school, but that was something that was a lesson that i’ve taken with me since then to know that you were a you hire the right person not to fill a position where a lot of the other ones were, they were looking to federals phil position, and they’re trying to determine my skills if i was good for that position, but rather he said, here’s a guy who i think has potential, i’m going to hire him and i’ll obviously augment the position to be right for him and b he was looking at me for my potential here’s, somebody on dh what i was able to present on the emotional and the human side, the science of how to go out there and raise money. I had no doubts the twenty year old kid you could learn what do you like it? Outstanding so so you had clarity, you were you were clear about who you were. You exuded confidence, no doubt and and and led to the hyre yeah, okay, all right, what are the traits? What else do you like to see in individual fundraisers before we get to that? This clarity of organization around mission and things like that? What else do you like to see in a fundraiser? So, obviously, you know, one of the one of the most important ones is, you know, and they often they they even say it on resumes on a job, but descriptions is, you know, self starter, but i want to dive labbate deeper in that idea of being that kind of entrepreneurial person to get out there and create new relationships, because when you are an entrepreneur, whether you work for a big company organization or you are on your own, a fundraiser is somebody who has to build their own network. If you’ll come into a new city or a new organization, you’re not necessarily hopefully, you’re not just picking up the dozen are one hundred donors that already giving you’re going out there and raising new money, and that requires you to be a self starter to say okay. Where are these people? Who would be interested in supporting this cause? How do i get introduced to these individuals? How doe i interacted them? How do i stay in touch with them? And all those kind of skills require you not sitting on your couch eating bon bon. Sorry. If that’s your approach, then it’s not gonna work if you want to be sitting behind a desk. It’s not going to work, you have to be somebody who enjoys the thrill of going out there and and making those contacts so that’s that’s one of them, you know, main things that i that i look for, somebody who has that kind of drive to kind of get out there and make it happen as if you’re building your business. Because you aren’t your house. You’re building your network, your own proverbial roll independent for your business, it’s, for the good of the mission. Exactly. All right. So let’s, go to the organization side being being clear and confident on the organization side because we want to be successful in our dating relationship with our donors. Come, you want a clear clear statement of mission. Somebody like you like eight word mission even right? So that’s a lot. A lot of you know, the consultants who will help the organisation shape their mission has to be concise. It has to be super concise. You know what you could share with somebody on one floor trip up in the elevator, right? It’s? Really? What? Who are you? What? What? What’s the organization. And if your job is tio and malaria deaths done, we’re in the business of ending larry desk. You’re not waxing poetic about how you’re going to do it and buy what deadline you just want to be able to say mission is what you’re in the business of doing. So you should be able to clearly say, like you said, you know, eight words or, you know, one sentence, this is what we’re in the business of doing. The only thing you might claire qualify it with maybe his location like right ending malaria deaths, west africa, right, right. That’s tied to your containers? Yes, exactly. If you if you are central africa and that’s your job and that obviously is in their mission statement. Absolutely. But again, it’s. Not going on about, you know, your values and the vision for this it’s just clearly what you’re in the business of doing much kruckel sip of water because it looks like your first thing. Andi, i will suggest that we talked about so the mission you have some examples of missions in in the book, remember? I mean, charity water is very brief form, so i’m obviously a big fan of charity water. They bring clean water to basically to the people in africa and, well, it’s interesting they limited to africa and it’s a whole nother conversation about the scope of their vision, but they do of many, many different villages in central africa, on some other areas as well, but basically they are fund-raising organization and the fund water projects on the ground, so they don’t actually drill themselves. They have organizations on the ground doing the drilling, but they are a fund-raising organization that funds those those well projects, and they’re one of the organization has a very concise mission statement. Yeah, a lot of them dio i’m trying to think it was your forjust certainly particularly well, no, just that was one example you cite. Some of the books so people have to buy the book way can give the whole book about paige, expect this only non-profit radio this’s not provoc radio should expect you should have high expected. Yes, but we can’t bring you all two hundred rich pages. Yes, of data. And i would have come with a list of the mission statements prepared. Dahna okay, after mission, we’re moving to our vision. Yes. Now we’re getting a little more detail. Yes. So so and when you talk about vision, obviously i’m doing it through the context of dating and relationships. You know, vision is where you’re headed. So when i talk about dating when you’re dating for a purpose, right, you’re looking to find somebody who can spend you know, whether it’s rest your life with our meaningful part of your life. The idea is to find somebody who wants similar things, as you, you know, using the dating analogy. Do they want to have children? Do they want to live in the city or the suburbs? Do they want to be? Yeah. Primary breadwinner. Both, you know, both working whatever the case may be. But these air important conversations you have when you’re dating someone seriously, where we headed together is unit because if you’re not on the same page of one wants children and it’s important to him, and the other one doesn’t want children that’s probably a deal breaker, so so, you know, the correlation to fund-raising is that i am and discovered that in my first marriage kayman oh, there you are, bring i could bring some case study in on the way outside our competition advice to se eso eso eso when i was so when you’re when you’re doing the fund-raising business cerini fund-raising business and you’re and you’re looking to get someone to support your cause, you’re not supporting your cause for what they are. It is now right? You’re not we’re break, we bring clean drinking water to central africa that’s not the case that’s gonna get someone open their wallet, what’s going to get them to open the wall is this is where we are now, but this is where we’re headed, and if they buy into the idea of where you’re headed, then they’re going to support you. So if they like, if they see that vision of your organization is the white picket fence with the dog and the tire swing, then they will support you. They’re not here to fill holes or to cover your gaps in your budget. They want to know that you are a viable organization and you have some great things in mind and you’re headed in their group great direction. So that’s, what i talk about vision and through the dating perspective is the idea that you’re selling somebody on where you’re headed. We need a break. Wagner cps, here’s an excerpt from their latest testimonial quote, they’re accessible, they care about their clients end quote, can you say that about your accounting and ordered firm? Go to the site weinger cps dot com, check out their credentials, check out their clients, then you know how i like to do it. Pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat huge tomb regular cps dot com now time for tony, take two. I’ve got three new videos, all on the same subject. Build your grantmaker relationships that may sound familiar to you. It was on the show a month ago that was february sixteenth. Now it’s in video repurposed you see different format and perhaps you learn better by video that’s possibility. Although then you’re probably making a mistake listening to non-profit radio audio podcast. If you learn better by video, then you’re wasting your time right now. Right now, this minute, the second that you’re spending this thing to me right now. Right now. Now, this one right now, it’s wasted it’s wasted, squandered, um, or maybe just a little interested in video, but you also like audio so let’s go on that hypothetical because otherwise you would’ve turned me off already. And then you’re not even gonna know what the videos were about because you already shut me off ten seconds ago. This is what the videos are. They are three versions of the panel that i moderated at the foundation center. We have the full version. That is roughly ninety minutes. There’s the broadcast version roughly fifty minutes. That’s. What you heard on the show back in february and there’s the executive summary, which i pared down the whole ninety minutes to about ten minutes. Chopped it. But you know, executives, you know, they never get we all know this, right? The executives never know the full story they don’t get into the weeds. So if you want the executive summary, you can have it for about in about ten minutes, but do it do so at your own peril? I would say there’s lots of good advice from this panel for the foundation center. You remember it, you know it was a couple weeks ago, but in case you want a fuller version, you know, then you got the link to the ninety minutes. If you want to hear the broadcast version again by video for some reason, maybe you learn better by video, but let’s not get into that morass. Anyway, i got videos for you, and if you wantto, if you want to refresh your recollection that’s a that’s, a term of art in the law, by the way, refresh, you’re talking to a witness and you give them a writing, a paper and that’s used to refresh their recollection. It would be admissible just for that purpose. So if you want to refresh your recollection, then maybe you want thea the broadcast version or the executive summary. Let’s see this? Those of the panel is on grantmaker relationships and we are going to continue with that. We continued with that the following week, some losing myself. So if you if you ah phew, like if you come in and out of the podcast and is only some you listen to some you don’t you want to know that grantmaker sze we talked about twice there was this there was this panel from the foundation center that i moderated, and then the week after was, um, john hicks from d l b remember dylan’s like bull picks, so if you are interested in grantmaker relationships, you feel like you’re not doing well in grantmaker relationships, you’ll want to check out the videos and also that show that was that followed with john hicks. All right, we’ve got my video with links to these three versions of the video that is at tony martignetti dot com. Now let us return to jonah helper, the wise and the wise and experienced jonah helper and date your donors. Okay, jonah helper. Thank you for your indulgence, sir. Hey, you do you freely with ntcdinosaur provoc? I think i actually attended. Not last year, the year before that, and it was amazing there was yes, it was. I had a first all they had, like, big band on stage. You’re talking about twenty fourteen. It might have been twenty. Forty, right? Yeah. I had a fantastic time. It was and it was in california. It was in san francisco that year. I loved it. I mean, they were great. The organizer’s there were we’re fantastic. Yeah. Okay. I think that was twenty. Thirteen. Twenty fourteen. Was my first one there in washington, d c okay, so they alternate east, mid and west sametz been so twenty three years ago. Yeah. It’s a it’s a lot of smart people, they had a big band on stage. It was i mean, it was heaven enchantment, and it was like, well, i wasn’t expecting that andi conference in general gave me that kind of flavor. It was with the sessions or great, the people in the hallways, you know, i always love the hallways, the hallways of the best because that when you meet, you always meet the best people in the hallways. Sessions are good because you can hear the training and they’re in their and the great sessions, but there’s nothing better than being able to just bump into somebody and find out they’re doing amazing work, and it could be a small church in virginia, and they’re doing phenomenal things that you could apply to your organisation in some, you know, specific instance, i love that, yeah, that kind of randomness on dh and the ntc, the non-profit technology conference did that for me. We were talking about your organization and and its mission and vision statements, and you also want, you know, you want organization to be clear about who their primary customers are and not two morph into something that you really don’t belong doing or being with or, you know, again being true to yourself, being say more about that. Yeah, so so, you know, make a good story that i heard from my friend nancy lublin, who is the founder of dress for success, and was then chief old person of do something dot orgryte, which is thine engagement. So the fact that she was, you know, not a team made her the old productions on crisis text long theo, of course treyz his text leinheiser heard one. She started well shouldn’t start do something, yeah, but she might as well have started because where i’m going with that story on dh, everything she touches turns to gold and that’s, not luck, i mean it’s, she is a a tour de force. I mean, she is unbelievable, but the story that she she shared with me was that when she came to do something that or go it was a centres was a brick and mortar centers around the u s where teens we could get involved, and it was founded by melrose place actor shoe, and it was andrew shoe his name was on and it was it was a floundering organization. They were having a major major problems, and they were presented when she came aboard with an opportunity for i don’t know where the dollar amount was my been two hundred fifty, three hundred thousand dollars from the company that that said build a teen center near our call center like near, you know, our operations and, you know we’d love to have a teen center over there. And nancy, as the new ceo of the organization of deuce of do something that orc sa declined the money and an organization that is starving for cash. Yeah, so it it seems to be like, you know, like, what are you doing? You know, your new new new kid on the block here on dh you’re turning down this money and when she brought her into the offices or, you know, in in our offices, she sat down with the leadership in legends like, how how badly do you want this job? You know, your seemed to be kind of walking your way out of it and she said, you know, you need to trust may because this is not the future of do something that i do something right, forget the dot org’s it’s not future of do something to have all these brick and mortar, you know, places for students to kids to come together, it needs to be online and she after that point shut down all the physical locations, took the whole thing online, rebranded to do something as do something dot or ge and and is now getting forget the corporate dollars that she turned away the two hundred thousand tens and tens of millions of dollars they get and primarily comes from from companies so arab hostile will partner with them for teens, for genes. They found that homeless teenagers the number one thing that they wanted were a pair of jeans. Why? Because i don’t have to be washed every day and its owner’s homeless, he doesn’t have access to clean clothes, a pair of jeans are cool enough, you know, generic and cool enough that you could wear and where without having to clean them every day. And that was something that homeless teenagers wanted, and they partnered with aeropostale for kids who had no better privilege to donate their genes threw in the store. It created a tremendous amount of foot traffic into air apostle, and that was vow valuable to them, the co-branding was strong, and it turned out to be a wonderful partnership, and they’ve just replicated that that kind of model of companies adopting programs, supporting their their their operations, it they have done tremendous amount, because so your point they were focused on the mission of, of serving young adults who want to volunteer, and it was not going to be a brick and mortar place. It was going to be online and because she was paying attention to that and not the dollar, she was able to take this organization which was floundering, and make it the powerhouse that it is today. And that she’s now entrusted in the hands of the other time the chief operating officer, aria finger she’s, now the ceo of do something that oregon are on ours, but on non-profit radio toy. So there you go as ceo and as ceo. And then and then they spun that off because, yes, okay, i said yes, because our online they’re able to serve millions and millions of teens like five million’s i mean, they have, and they have this big treasure trove of data. Yes, about teen engagement and know how to engage them in issues. I think they’re think their sweet spot is, like sixteen to twenty five or so. And then beyond twenty five, they used your primary money is coming from companies. Big data or data is so important. So because that’s the case then, like, you know, think that something that you mentioned earlier about how nancy level went into crisis text line that was born out of the fact that they were getting texts, emergency tests, tech of young adults who are suicidal, we’re getting abused or things along those lines and as an organization as there to help people, what do you do with that? They weren’t equipped, they were equipped. And then they found the typical the standard nine nine eleven was not going to be able to handle us, especially for the digital age where people are going on their cell phone and there more comfortable hiding in the bathroom on their cell phone and texting somebody on emergency, they needed to do something. So that kind of stuff has outgrown has grown out of do something dot or ge and that’s? Why, you know, have crisis tax line? So it is there’s so many wonderful examples that you can see where, especially in their story, where they straight stay true to their mission. And if it wasn’t if if if emergency texting was not right for do something dot or ge, they didn’t just, like, expand the mission to fit under, do something out or they made it crisis that’s now a new organization, nancy’s now the head of that, and that was a new thing. It wasn’t like mission creep and now we’re doing, you know, we’re solving another problem. They started a new organization with all focus on your primary custom. Absolutely cool. All right, after we’ve started this relationship, we need to keep it going. And you call this i don’t have a name. That chapter was somewhere you say from lust toe love s o the analogy, the relationships going off you’re so so we all know this and in our in our our own relationships, you know, your boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is at the early, early part of the relationship, this tremendous amount of lust, right there is the attraction it’s, new it’s, fresh it’s, exciting and that’s so important because that is going to be, you know, the chemistry needs to be there that’s vital to the success of meeting new people and starting to develop a relationship with them. But it needs to mature right in there is if the relationship is only on that’s. The part i missed in high school. Yeah, the maturity and the whole thing. And during the last night, i had a lot of lost. But you know what to do with it all i’m in the same boat, my friend. S o so yes, so so that that has to mature. So if you get somebody to become a donor of your organization shin right, they may be enamored and they might be a beautiful organization. You could be a charity water you could be, you know, do something that or go any of these clauses that are gorgeous. I mean, they they look gorgeous, their offices a gorgeous they just have got that locked down, but it needs to mature. And it was the relationship with them needs to be more than just face value and it’s not just i’m excited to be part of this, you know, sexy organization. It needs to mature to say, look, i’m a partner. I’m somebody who’s not just early part of the job. I’m a partner. I’m in this for the long haul. I want to help them grow, whether it’s capital improvements, whether it’s, you know the infrastructure, whether it’s special projects, whatever the case may be, i want to see this organization grow from where it is now and where it’s headed. And that means that the relationship needs to mature where they have a greater stake in the game. And that means lino much like in our own personal relationships, where we might do certain milestone things, like move in together, there needs to be that kind of advancement, that kind of moves management and to use, you know, fund-raising jargon to take that relationship from one that’s courtship and maybe a first gift to now increase that support over time. Part of this is a plan. So when you have, we need to be more structured maybe then are in on our dating side and our our relationship side. But we need stewardship plan, basically, what belongs in our stewardship. So i like to talk a lot about new donorsearch accusation because, you know, you mentioned if you have something as a donor and you want to keep one of the chapters is called, keep the fire alive, right? So that you want to put some good practices in place. You know, i talk about there in the in charge of keeping the fire alive and latto kind of moves that move that relationship along, that you should treat someone like an investor or treat them like family right now, or and and and and while it may sound like that’s ah, dichotomy that’s outside the investor way investors or relationships, right? Are you treating me like, like, a business transaction or so the nice thing is that it’s not mutually exclusive because what happens is in your relationships, there are absolutely expectations. If you if we decide tony, you and i decided we’re going to move in together, right? What? We have a wonderful relationship. We love each other. We have a wonderful relationship. We want. We’re going to move in now, and we’re gonna have it going to take it to that one. Quote. Next-gen metoo do this by the way, if your way, my wife, my my feelings in indianapolis. So nobody listens to this show so you don’t worry about it. Word getting out exactly right. Good. We could talk after, okay. So, so if if we want to take that to the next level, is there anything truly different about our relation with each other? Do we love each other anymore? The moment that we are now in the same apartment. No. Right. There’s? No inherent change. That happens between the way you feel about me and i. Feel about, you know, the decision that we’ve decided with it. What we have done is we’ve increased expectations on each other that there’s a certain kind of shared life now that we have that’s more than we had before because we’ve said that this is a priority cubine dark commitment deepen our commitment. So now, now that we’ve deep in our commitment, i am now have a certain level of responsibility to you, right? You have there’s a certain level of investment that i’ve now made, right? Then i know how to manage that’s, like just know if i move in with you and i lived like a single person, right? I don’t care about your feelings. I know it was anything of the week before when we weren’t living together. It was any behaving the same way. But now that we live together, i have a new set of standards that i have to abide by, and it’s me and it’s mutual, right? You have expectations toe on me. I have expectations on you and that’s. Not a bad thing. It’s a it’s a healthy thing, but what happens is i need to meet those expectations. So if i wanted if i if you’ve given me something, if you give me money a cz a fun as ah someone who’s going to give money a donor and i take that money. The relationship starts that right? It’s not thank you for your gift. I’ll speak to you next year. It’s. Now that i’ve taken your ten thousand dollars, i have a responsibility to you to make sure that you know how your money is being spent. Oh, so this gets to our city. Our stewardship plan? Yes. Oh, starts appointed stewardship plan is that when i get to give, when i when i get money from a donor it’s, not just another box to check off and say okay, i got this gift. I got to go get another fifteen or twenty other gifts. Tto meet meet mike. Now, how are we going to right this should how so, how do you really take this? And deep deep in that relationship so there’s everything from leadership roles. There’s these opportunities when it comes to getting them to open up their own home and their own network a lot times people think that if you ask somebody to do favors for you favors going, quote, like open their home for a party meeting or to give your cause that’s burning equity that deepens relation because e-giving to you. So finding ways to cement leadership positions for them to spend more time in your offices. And when i mentioned treating like investors and treat them like family, why should they only have a relationship with you? Right? You are representing an organization, there’s. Some other wonderful people in the office is it’s. Some of the best donors and leaders i know come into the organization and they say hello to everybody from the person at the front desk to the person in the mail room. They know everybody because this is their family now. So those types of opportunities that ways to kind of systemized that are important you could see in the book the whole bunch of suggestions for that. All right, we’re gonna go further. We gotta take a break. But don’t go a little more into this idea that asking people asking donors and volunteers to doom or is not burning them out. It’s deepening the relationship and not doing that could burn them out. So stay with us, you got to take a break. Tell us the credit card and payment processing company. You check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tell us and that is going to explain that long, long tail of passive revenue that you can enjoy when the companies that you refer joint tell us. And you, the non-profit earned fifty percent of everything tellers gets the video. Is that tony dot m a slash tony? Tell us now, back to jonah helper asking people to do more. Yes, whether they are donors or board members, this is not typically does not lead to burn out. What leads to burnout is give me your your annual gift. And now give me your annual gift a year later and a year later and there’s no substance beyond you’re giving, right, right. So the so let’s talk about i want to take a cold pill that back little bit. Because i think a lot of the fear of asking people to do more comes some of the fear of asking in general, especially asking for money. You know, fund-raising is not a dirty word. And i know so many professionals and leaders. In the business of consultants, talk about how it’s not a dirty word, but i kind of tied into the relationship side of things in the sense that when you’re asking for money from somebody, if it’s devoid, if it’s void of a relationship, right, if we’re just asking and you’re dialing for dollars it’s, it’s, it’s taking the relationship out of it and it’s just making us and no one enjoys all transactions for that and no one loves that no one likes to do that that’s terrible when there’s a real relationship in that leads to money it’s beautiful and obviously you can hear the correlation between like sex and relationships. If it’s just mechanical and there’s no relationship behind it, it may be fun. You may get the gift let’s not underestimate great, but but my point is this is probably not going to be a sustainable long term strategy. You’re not going to get somebody that may give you one time, but it’s not going to be a capacity gift. They could probably give you a lot more than what they’re giving you and you’re and it’s not like there’s any relationship behind it, so if you’re if you’re going to go after those easy shots like that, then you might get lucky, right? Teo? But but in the end of the day, if you if you develop a real relationship than the asking for money, is the exact opposite of a negative experience is the most powerful, empowering, beautiful next up in that relationship that makes people go? Yes, i’m i’m in this i’m in this relationship, i’m in it for the long haul. So it’s it’s kind of it’s kind of that double edge sword where fund-raising could either be a terrible, terrible experience, transaction transaction, a wallet with legs, right? Yeah, you know, it’s the sex appeal of just the fact that they have money versus somebody who’s, a partner partner in the cause and he’s excited about the vision and wants to see that succeed and right on dh wants to do more than just give exactly you’re not going to know that until you start asking, even if it’s just give it’s done in the context of i am partnering with you and the way i’m doing, doing my share is by giving you money because if you’re going to be on the ground drilling wells or curing our ending malaria deaths or, you know, providing needs for special needs children, i’m not as a donor, i may not be the expert on how to do that, but i know if i give you money and i trust the experts, it will get done and that’s fine, they built, they’ll become a partner in dollar and that’s fine, but it’s not a transaction, it’s more than that because they they are bought into the vision of the organization, all right, on a part of getting people to buy in and having them feel insiders is sharing the occasional downside failure. Yes, i’ve seen i’ve seen the good, bad and the ugly on this. I’ve seen organizations that are afraid to share information with their donors on day worrying about it. It’ll burn relationship, and those tend to be the relationships that were never strong to begin with. But the there are wonderful examples of how failure or you know where something did not work and it may not be, you know, gross of, you know, abuse or are you no mistrust think some things just don’t work and you know you put your your organization on the line, you try big things and it doesn’t pan out it’s a wonderful opportunity to deepen the relationships. Okay, i’ll give you ah, quick story example, i was in scott harrison who’s, a ceo and founder of charity water in his office, and he was telling me about early on and charity water before it was like, the very sexy, very sexy that, like what it is today hey told me early early on, he had a couple people on staff on payroll, they were doing their first projects, and they were going to go by that it belly up, they did not have the funds for payroll, they they were really desperate, and scott told me that he sent out a number of, like, blow, you know, emails to people who are in his periphery, you know, just to these donors and basically say, like, i need help, i need help, we’re in trouble, we’re doing great work, it wasn’t just like, you know, bail us out was like, we’re doing amazing work, but we’re in trouble. And one individual guy named michael birch, who was the who’s, a tech entrepreneur hey was the founder of bebo, which is a british base like social network from the nineties, like i bought by, i think, a well for eight hundred million dollars and he’s done not numerous projects that also brought in a lot of money, but here was a guy, michael birch on dh. He responded to scott and said, i’m happy to meet next time i’m in the new york area, i think he was in san francisco and he meets with with scott and scott in-kind of bears, a soul tells, tells him everything going on and, you know, they’re doing great work, but it’s just not catching on. They’re breaking their teeth and it’s just not happening, and michael birch gives him some recommendations gives him some advice, and then he says, i’ll see what i can do, you know, as faras giving you a little help, so he goes home. I don’t know how many days it was, you know, whatever was in the story that scott told me, but scott told me that he was sleeping in bed and his phone went off. I know texts or phone call, but was from michael birch and say, he said i sent you some money. I’m wiring it to your account. I hope it helps, and skye trembling opens up his bank account and there’s, a one million dollar gift that was sent from michael birch to charity water. And that was that trust that michael had, and he was really kind of like the one of the first major donors that they had that kind of went all in on them. He was somebody after hearing the troubles and tribulations, but was bought into scott harrison, who is, you know, the personality, come on, the mission that he stands behind and said, this is something i want to support, and they turn that negative in a tremendous partnership into this day michael and his wife are huge supporters of charity water. Everybody is not perfect in ceo land. You talk a little about flawed characters. Yeah, because because with this natural, you know, things don’t always go perfectly. We might even make mistakes. I mean, that that was not a mistake, that scott sure that’s got made, but but things don’t always go perfectly, and we know that from our personal relationship characters in history succeed. Yeah, i mean, so we all know this from our own personalized ships, you know, sometimes you date somebody, it doesn’t work out, and it goes down in flames, sometimes amicable, sometimes it’s definitely not their, you know, whatever it is, whether it’s dating marriage were human rights. It’s the human condition um so in the nonprofit world it’s true as well, we don’t have, you know, perfect relationships, and there are times where you butt heads with a person that you’re involved with a lay leader of volunteering your organization, and you might no longer be the right person to have that relation with them might be somebody else. It might be something that you can work with them and see through tio, but the communication and like any relationship and i talk about in the book about commune importance of communication, you can either work through it or if it’s, you’re not the right person to either find somebody else. If they are bought into the cause, if if it’s the cause they care about, they might be ableto be kind of handed off to somebody else. And if it’s destructive, which sometimes, you know, a fraction of the small fraction of the relations are and it’s not in the best interest of the organization for them to be aligned with his lay leader donor evan, if they give a lot of money and it could hurt the organization, you gotta cut your losses and pull out so there’s. Absolutely. Ah, whole spectrum on relationships and how you handle them. Depending on what’s the best interest of the organization. We’re gonna leave it there. The book is date. Your donors did your donor dot com and you’ll find jonah he’s at jonah helper. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Congratulations again on the book. Oh, thank you for having me next week. Continuing this theme with your intentional stewardship plan. If you missed any part of too today’s show i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio red jersey piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and tell us credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Durney dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producer is claire miree family boats in the line producer producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentiality tune in every tuesday nine to ten eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c. Metoo are you feeling unhappy with your body, shape or size? Ever feel out of control with food? I’m eliza that from nourish the soul and on the show, you’ll uncover the route to these imbalances and discover a permanent solution. Latto having a healthy relationship to food and your body. Join us every thursday morning at eleven a, m eastern time on talk radio dot. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? 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Nonprofit Radio for February 2, 2018: Your Donor Experience

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Brian Lauterbach: Your Donor Experience

What are you putting your donors through? How do they feel about it? What can you do to make it better? Brian Lauterbach is with Network for Good and he walks us through what works.

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s ground hog day. Thanks, tony fail emerges and gives us his prediction for winter today also, this is show number three hundred seventy five on our way to four hundred, which will be in july three seventy five today we have a new affiliate station w c r s fm, columbus, ohio central ohio’s community radio station at ninety two point seven and ninety eight point three fm welcome to the affiliate family w c r s so glad to have you affections to those affiliate listeners. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into a pure a phobia if you told me that forever after and eternity you’d miss today’s, show your donor experience. What are you putting your donor’s through? How do they feel about it? What can you do to make it better? Brian lauterbach is with networks for good and he walks us through what works. Tony’s take two, know when to pull out. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers regular sepa is dot com tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us it’s my pleasure to welcome brian latto back to the show. He is vice president of programs, impact and sustainability that’s, a big portfolio at network for good. Leading a national team of consultants, he’s worked as a professional fundraiser and consultant for a hundred plus non-profits over twenty years, he’s talked fund-raising and non-profit management at george washington university, indiana university and wayne state university. Midwestern boy he’s at b r lauterbach. They’re at network for good dot com, where f l r is spelled out, and they’re at network for good, where number four is the arabic number. You don’t don’t use the roman numeral four, because then you’d be doing network ivy. Good, don’t do that. Use the arabic number four. Welcome brian latto back buy-in brian. Brian latto box. Okay, we don’t have brian. Hopefully he will call back in, but we also have in the studio lisa bonano, who is vice president of digital marketing for network fur. Good. And she and i will chat while, uh well, brian, hopefully calls back called back. Welcome. Thanks. Thanks for having us welcome. Thanks for being in the studio. Absolutely ghastly. I love that corporate us, your your team. Even though brian is not with us in spirit, you’re you bring him in by the problem. You’re all you’re all you’re all with us. Ok? Do we have brian back? Sam? No. Okay, um, we’re talking about dahna experience. You’re on the way. We thought it was going to brian toe open, but you’re the opener. Okay, i’ll take it so donorsearch spear ian ce uh, what were we talking about? So dinner experience is an interesting topic for us because we see so much commentary around consumer experience. Many reports many sets of thought leadership pieces and everyone in the consumer space is trying to understand why customer experience is so important. And now that everyone is on board with why now, it’s everyone’s trying to figure out the how so for us and i work for good, you know, we’re providers of donorsearch software we’re constantly thinking about how can we improve the donor experience for our non-profit customer? Okay? And we can learn from the customer experience on the corporate side exact. Hopefully you and brian. Well, we will be talking about not hopefully. Okay, let’s, try again, brian. You with us? I am. Excellent. There’s a nice, strong voice. Did you hear that wonderful introduction i gave you? I didn’t, didn’t. Okay, well, but i felt it from the cold hundred. Columbus. Ok. Ok. Well, first of all, you’re in columbus, ohio, where you didn’t hear that we have a brand new affiliate station in columbus, the u c r s fm joining us, joining us this week. First time that’s. Wonderful. Now is if i would have known that and i want to go, i would have yeah, they’re they’re not with us live though they know that’s very ambitious. It would have been cool. Yeah, they were on their schedule on thursdays at four p m they leave us in so that the filling station they’re not live, but now so columbus is columbus, you’re home. No, columbus is a inconvenient layover route from chicago. Okay, against the good buckeye people, but i’m just saying that. Yeah, and unforeseen way, les, thanks to the airline with nevertheless, here we are. Yeah. No, no, we’re yeah, i know we’re going to focus on the transit for a little bit. Don’t worry. We’ll get we’ll get to dahna experience there’s plenty of time together. So you were originating from where? Today? From chicago. Okay. And then there was a connecting flight that got delayed. Is that right? That what happened? Delayed, then cancelled on dh. Yeah, and then re booked for later time. I understand. And it wasn’t going to get you here in time. Okay? Don’t you know, they have to delay before they re book. You really? I mean, they have to delay before they cancel. You realize that, right? We have to be led on buy-in fifteen or twenty minute increments, and then then they’ll give you the ultimate the cancellation, which you are all you know, anticipating as you were being led on thinking, oh, fifteen or twenty minutes. But if you travel enough, it sounds like you do. You knew that you were just being led on it’s just a matter of time before they cancel. Absolutely. Did you hear lisa give a very cogent introduction tio to a donor experience? Did you hear that or no, i did. Yes, okay, always does. Okay, s o ah, anything you want to you want to add in the sort of overviewing we have a full hour together, obviously to go into details, but i thought you’d like to add to the overview of dahna experience, i think i think, you know, beyond the obvious and what networks for good is doing with technology and software and services for, you know, the one hundred twenty five thousand organizations that we touch each year. What we’ve been talking a lot internally about is how do we operationalize this donorsearch experience, but and from a top level, what we’re talking about is this concept of subscription giving the idea that, you know, not unlike content marketing description giving is what we’re what we’re discussing and how we can align information and inspirational content with the non-profit stakeholders to really engage them, not only just leading up to a gift, but what happens. After that gift is made because, as we all know where now the listeners know that you know, donorsearch retention certainly is something that we all should focus on habitually, but now coming up for air after giving tuesday in year, and we have to really think about it from the donor’s perspective, what is it that we can provide them and an ongoing and cost effective basis that wilkie remind them about not only what they did but the value and impact that it has not just about a fundraising goal, but really about the programmatic impact that it creates for the organisation that this donorsearch invested in? Okay, okay, there’s a lot in there, we’re going to have we have the hour to unpack it, and when we come back from this break, which i’m about to teo, enter, then we’ll get to this idea of the experience and howto had a planet for for your for your donors. So stay with us while we take this break. Pursuant the field guide for data driven fund-raising it is their newest resource on the listener landing page, which is now at tony dahna slash pursuant radio note, the new bentley the new custom bentley. Okay, tony dahna slash pursuant radio that’s their listener landing page. No surprise with this kind of content, this field field guide because the company is data driven and as where are we saying? Technology enabled, but focusing on the data the field guide, it is of a paper that will make your data less daunting so what’s in it they got five high level steps you can take to translate your business objectives into action. Real world case studies so you, khun benchmark and a worksheet with thought starters to help your team find the right focus and start to build this data driven culture that you you wantto you want to achieve it’s the field guide for data driven fund-raising at tony dahna em a slash pursuant radio. Now, let’s, go back to brian latto back and your donor experience. And so brian let’s let’s do what i what i pledged, how do you how do you think through this? In terms of a and you’re you’re you’re in a small midsize non-profit how do u plan what this donor experiences spectrum of activities and contacts and communications is going to look like? Yeah, i think first, what we have to do a small, emerging and midsize non-profits is embrace the reality that just because we’re tax exempt doesn’t mean we’re tech exempt the idea that because of our budget size, we can ignore the consumer behavior of companies like netflix and apple and google, and what they created and really institutionalized could not be further from the truth, of course, as small non-profits we have to figure out a way to replicate some of those things and embrace that consumer behavior that stage appropriate with are, you know, staff or lack thereof and certainly budget in time, our most precious asset. But it really begins with an understanding that you, as are we as a nonprofit organization or is a sector, cannot just be the lagging adopters of how to create an experience for not our consumers but our donors. And because those same consumers that are buying things on amazon subscribing the netflix, i’m getting new information about their movies and tv shows. Well, those guys are also our donors as well. So the idea that we can have this incongruous experience because, well, we’re a non profit organisation, could not. Be further from the reality. Yeah, we don’t like that. Yeah, yeah. That’s zoho that’s kind of a, you know, sort of a poverty mentality. We don’t mean it like that, right? I got to do something. Yeah. What about s o z explosive labbate what can we learn specifically from these high touch cos that you’re mentioning netflix, amazon were all engaged with them. We’re all getting their emails. We what? What? What specifically could be a couple of takeaways that that we can weaken gleaned from the corporate side? Yeah, the biggest thing i would think you know, whether you’re subscribing to a software or buying sweater or dog food online, the idea is what these companies do very well and what we was sector would be well served to embrace, let alone with our replicator. Is that the idea that when you buy something, these companies not only continue to remind you why you bought it and the value of that purchase, but they also want to make sure that you are satisfied with that purchase. So you will buy mohr by again. Upgrade your subscription. So the idea that you can buy something and the transaction is complete. Well, that may be true, but the relationship is just beginning. And so what? I think some of these, you know, larger companies, as you said, tony, all of us are kind of plugged into as consumers and buyers, we need to think about why they create this continuum of contact and activity and what i love about it. Most of them, especially my favorite, is netflix because they aren’t intrusive about their ongoing engagement. I get an email, i mean, sure, i’m sure it’s timed and based upon data and when they know i oktay now, but my point is that i always opened that because i get no more than two females a month from netflix that, you know, is highly visually engaging, low on written content and compels me to take an action which is, you know, watch this new show that that’s like the other show that you have been watching so it’s almost there, almost helping me use their product and exploit the functionality of you know, i get thes e mails, i get them from mm, hbo, i have their ah, hbo. Now i get them from amazon prime. I get them. From land’s end, you know, and i’m i’m in fact, i think i’m wearing a lance and sweater. Lisa, this is the lands and mock turtle. Thank you very much. Oh, yeah, she just said it was your mike on when she said looks great. So again, you look great. Thank you very much. Your lands and very well, ok keeper mike on way like her. Yeah, keeping michael um yeah, so, you know, and i’m a i mean, you know, i get thes e mails, and i sometimes i’m amazed at how interested i am in them voice is cracking like a thirteen year old interested, you know how often i read them? It’s it’s um, sometimes i sit back and, you know, it was like the fourth email this week, you know, from land’s end and i’m still opening it and reading the things and saying the same thing with the with the media ones i get because, well, you know, there was a sense of incredibly words help you do that because you were happy with your purchase and you you were made to feel good. You you, you you like wearing that sweater, and so you’re open to getting mohr information from in this case, land’s end because, um, you jump through the hoop and they jumped through yours well, and as you per said there, reminding me of the value i get and the satisfaction i get, you know, definitely worded communications. Lisa yeah, i wouldn’t pick up on some of that brian had had thrown out there about the word relationship, so even though we’re not using the word relationship that’s really what we’re describing here, right through these emails, through these touches they are, you know, in their their marketing code, building this relationship with you, unbeknownst to you right through through all these different communications and how they’re inviting brian to try a new a new piece of content or listened to a podcast or watch a movie and i think that’s one of the things we’re recognizing there’s only one podcast that people should be listening to and it’s this one it’s twenty martignetti non-profit in case you were confused, yes, in case there’s, any questions? So, you know, i know there are hundreds of thousands, but this should be when you’re down, you should be at the top. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, our our donors or definitely thinking about how do i build that relationship? I’m sorry, non-profits or thinking about how do i build that relationship with thes donor is much like on the consumer side, and i think the interesting new wrench in, um and the cycle is and i love for for, for brian even talk more about this guy he’s a lot of thoughts on this is that you have these new entrance, these new platforms, which you’re making it extremely easy for everyone to collect donors and b i’m sorry collectibe nations and be kind of fun raisers on behalf of non-profits they can set up a fundraising page very quickly for the causes that they love and invite all of their network of community in teo to make a donation on the b on behalf of the non-profit and then on the experience is so important, you know, teo, to reinforce, you know, the what what lisa just outlined for us is that you’re not going to get people to become committed advocates to your organization just by virtue of facilitating a filling provoc transact, you have to create a qualitative experience that reinforces not only the value of what they did, but the impact that it has, and when they can connect those two things value it, impact they they’re going to want to fly their flag, so to speak alongside yours and tell everyone that they court this organization, they’re proud of that. But then, as lisa suggested, they take that first and next action in terms of non-profit ask assi and start to do something for you on and on helping you raise money and spread awareness are two of the easiest things that certainly technology enables, but are the natural next thing’s a happy and committed donor for ought to do for your organization? I’d like to think this transactional mentality is a thing of the past, you know, and should be anachronistic by now, but but i think that a lot of non-profits it’s not, you know, they i feel like we got a gift and we’ll say thank you, and we’ll come back in the next cycle, whatever our next campaign is or what, whatever our next need is and that’s that’s antithetical to everything that you’re saying this transactional mentality needs to be a relationship mentality. Lisa, you know, at least we know we’re talking about relationships you need i mean, you wouldn’t just invite your parents over for thanksgiving dinner and then not talk to them again until christmas, you know, because that’s, your next campaign is to get them to come for christmas dinner. Oh, you know, maybe you should be going to them if you don’t have children, you should be going to them because you’re more mobile, but anyway, you know, so too much detail, but, yeah, i’m getting it, and we’re going to end up being my therapist by the end of this. And but, you know, in all fairness to the small organization and the chief, everything officer is out there that runs that you know, what it takes is blocking, tackling some time in your schedule to be able to not only think about or created experience, but deliver on it, it needs to be stage appropriate and aligned with your, you know, your constraints, not just your limited resources and, you know, as those small and even side’s non-profit organizations think about how to create that experience, well, they really need to think about the tools that they used there’s more and more options out there that can that can create, you know, automated e mails, autumn and automated tech messages that some of stuff that we do it now for good kind of the the phrase that lisa uses a lot, you know, when talking about this internally is, you know, set it and forget it, not that not forget it, because it’s not important, but you designed this experience and operationalized deployed with technology, and then you can evaluate it and make sure the metrics are lining with some of your bigger goals, not not necessarily financial but relationship goals and bridle the idea that your small non-profit that you can’t do this, you can’t afford not not this longer. And, you know, i know there’s, you know, some purists and traditionalists think about giving tuesday as this one and done phenomena. Well, maybe sometimes it is, but it doesn’t have to be, and it shouldn’t be because the number one thing that when i talked to, uh, non-profits throughout the country is that they’re they’re so focused on the ask and getting that done and getting it out, they forget that the ask or getting that gift is the first step in a series of many steps that you need to not only create an experience, but two to begin a relationship. Brian zoho i was just in north carolina earlier this week talking about two hundred non-profits and all these town halls and learned that not many of them has have even had the opportunity two thank all they’re giving tuesday donors and their december thirty first donor. And so but what? We need to understand that thanking someone for a gift does not inexperienced create yeah, okay, that’s a irs compliance thing, you know, thank you for your tax deductible give no good services were exchanged, blah, blah, blah, but and that isn’t the achievement. The achievement is what’s next, how do you communicate what they did and how and why, how it creates impact for the organization? Okay, let’s, let’s, start diving into some detail now, i think we’ve spent enough time with the motivation can we can we agree that segmentation of your your donor community is essential to a za basis of what we’re talking about? Being able to do without a doubt? Ok, but it depends on how well we’re going to get you up. So what? What should we be? What should be be segmenting by what? What? What do we want to learn from from the transaction that will help us in the really build the relationship? Yeah, so i would say, you know what? How did the gift come to you? Right? So not so much the channel. Like, was it online or in the mail, but rather what was the vehicle that compelled someone to give? And so, you know, in a in a very basic construct of segmentation, you know, a non donor-centric attendee versus a donor, someone that has current or last giving history, those air three distinct segments that all has nuanced, uh, information metoo and so a cz well, as you know, the business or the foundation, because what often happens thiss time of year when people think about you no acknowledgement letters, it’s, basically, they dump all the data into the spreadsheet, or if there are hopefully some sort of donor management system, uh and then spit out the receipts and it’s this monolithic message that doesn’t doesn’t acknowledge why someone are from where someone case, because i think all of this, as practitioners would agree that someone who came to an event that you hosted versus someone that gave on giving tuesday had a different point of entry experience with your organization and air go needs to be that needs to be acknowledged and dumping them all into one funnel and hoping for the best isn’t going to do that isn’t going to do the job, okay, so we’re looking at segmenting by, you know, we want to learn what the person gave to ah programmatically, basically where they came from, right? How did they find us and what they’re what their interests are, perhaps beyond what they gave to sew that so that we can we can focus our communications to them a marry my lisa, my on the right amount, right track? You’re exactly right. I s exactly right, not even just the right track for the needle a little bit more say, you know, we kind of talked about how there’s so many parallels obviously i’m head of marketing so there’s, so many parallels in what would you do on the marketing on the for-profit side and what we’re encouraging non-profits to do when it comes. To dahna retain retention, you know their revenue line is thes these donors making making contributions? Ditigal must think like, how do i get that recurring? How do i create the subscription model? How do i get in front of these donors and connect to them in the way they want to be connected? Teo much like how brian said he loves being connected that twice twice a month cadence with a with a message about what toe reader or watch next so it’s knowing why that donor is giving to you what is drawing to them, drawing them to your organization that you can then capitalize on was it that specific program that you’re offering to teo, you know, malnourished children? Is that the program you’re offering over here to do to do this, that the other knowing what’s drawing them and connecting them to your organization is literally the foundation for building that relationship and ultimately building community and look at the corporate analogies that we were talking about earlier, you know, why is amazon stock at twelve hundred dollars a share and continuing to grow? Because you know the messages we get from them? Well, other people who into interested in what you purchased were interested in these other things also related connecting point related to yes, real connection to what drew you in you might also be interesting these things so the analog we have these other programs that may be of interest to you because of what you gave to last year, that zaveri basic, but that right and that’s, why segmenting and having having a tool at your disposal so you can segment those donors in a line likes with likes to say the’s owners all came in because they care about this type of program and that’s what they’re that’s their connection to this non-profit versus this segment that might have a different reason, a different draw to the non-profit that that allows a non-profit to message very specifically and deliberately to those segments in a more congress, in and measured way. And so often, i mean, brian knows is even better than the most so often when you talk to non-profits they barely have the infrastructure that they need to support the bare basics, like he was saying thank you for your donation is not even like it’s, not even a step. Up from from the bare basics of building that community and those relationships, brian, anything you want to add? Yeah, i think the other thing is, while segmentation is optimal, consistency is essential. And ah, you know, if an organization has the capacity and the wherewithal of technology to do some basic segment, by all means, my gosh, do it because it improves results, but for those that can’t you got to put a stake in the ground and at least create an experience that presumes that organization or excuse me donorsearch port your organization not because they wanted a tax receipt, but because they care about what you do. You know, i think what non-profits really need to think hard and long about is this, you know, that i believe donors don’t give to hear organization they give through it. And as soon as you embrace that, this idea that donors are outsourcing their desire for public good and impact in their community, teo you the non-profit because you’re set up to do it, that suddenly changes the paradigm and should change the communication dynamic to one of thank you to one of accountability and ongoing accountability. Okay, so that’s a no that’s your your message you’re suggesting consistency? Yeah, murcott consistency makes things easier to measure if you have apples to apples. If you’re creating the same experience for every donor let’s say that gives online, you know that they’re gonna receive one two and three at these intervals, then you khun then if you implement that with consistency, you khun start to measure its efficacy. Okay, okay, hold that we’re going to continue their we’ll take another break standby. We’re gonna see piela i love this testimonial that that they have. This is my first year and we’re growing non-profit weinger cpas was completely attentive and gave the impression as if they were right next door when handling our review engagement. Even though we’re in a different state, they made me feel like we were the only client they had blah, blah, blah gushing, gushing, amazing, effusive praise all while feeling supported and genuinely cared for in the process. Endquote supported and genuinely cared for that’s from cps. Right? So i’m is like you. Would you expect that from something like lift or uber, or curb or grab or ola and allies for our moon by listener? We have we actually have a live listener in mumbai and we often having from delhi. So i added, i had a lot to that. You know, these air sepa is they’re they’re not bellman there, not front desk associates agents, really, but associates, if you like concierges elevator operators, i’d like to stay in classic hotels, housekeepers, restaurant managers. Are they servers or bus boys? No, no thiss gushing praise is for cps on that bike, by the way, and that testimonial was from a small cancer research non-profit on the east coast. So we’re not just talking big non-profits taking advantage of of wagner cpas. This was small organization. Check them out. Witness cps, dot com. And then, you know, do what i always advocate. Pick up the phone, give them a call, see if it works. And the person you want to talk to is the partner you eat. Which tomb? You touched him. You know him. Because he’s been on the show twice. He’s he’s. The first time he was on, he had this genius idea. You’re nine, ninety as a marketing tool. Who would think of that? That this ubiquitous nine. Ninety that’s on guide. Star and it’s, your your attorney, general’s office and it’s ah, charity navigator. If you’re bigger or ge, use it as a marketing tool. Use the narrative space in there to promote your your work. Don’tjust recite from your from your from your statement of inc. You know, use it more smartly. That’s yeats. Ok, so wagner, cps dot com talk to you coached him he’s been a guest, you know, he’s bona fide. Totally legit. The jetta means more than legit he’s brilliant regular cps dot com okay, now, time for tony steak too. You gotta know when to pull out of a bad donorsearch relationship we’re talking about dahna relationships today i was on a cruise thiss one idea came from st so while i was in st kitts, i got stimulated and i started to think about pulling out. Now what we’re talking about, you could just have to watch the video to get to learn see what got me thinking, but you don’t want to pull a push a bad position with a donor if if this if the if the signals are negative, you know they’re not returning your calls they give, but they give considerably less than you’re always asking. They’re not turning out for events despite repeated invitations. These air all signals that it’s a bad relationship. It’s. Well, it’s it’s, not a growing relationship, and you need to spend your valuable time cultivating. Face-to-face you know, this is your face-to-face cultivation time, someone who’s going to be more forthcoming for you. There are other ways to cultivate the donors that are not forthcoming, but in terms of your face-to-face relationship, you know, major gift time, you have to move on when when this the signals are negative from your donors and that is tony’s take two now, let’s, go back, teo well, before we go back to brian, we’ve got to do the live listener love, and we have lots of live listeners live listener loves going out tio tacoma, washington, say los angeles, california, woonsocket, rhode island, new york, new york multiple we got multiple new york, new york woodbridge, woodbridge i told you, you have to identify yourself, you’re you’re upsetting me. Woodbridge, new jersey. You’re so consistent listening. I want to know who you are. Please, please. I’m gonna stop shutting you out now. I wouldn’t do that. But the live lister love is going out to woodbridge in jersey. Yes. Tampa, florida. Uh, let’s. Go abroad, germany. Good dog, orilla canada. Is it? Orilla looks like a really canada welcome live. Listen, love there. We’ve got tehran, iran, we’ve got as i said, mumbai, india. Andi got sent to cruise the tenor teeth in spain when it started the live listen, love always goes out and on the heels of that has to go the affiliate affections to our way it supposed be podcast pleasantries. What would do the affiliate affections? First to our affiliate station listeners throughout the country dozens of stations carrying the show affections to those listening on their and their local am and fm stations. And, of course, we again. Welcome to the family. W crs in columbus, ohio, were brian’s calling from and the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand listeners on the podcast listening on your own schedule pleasantries to you. So glad that you are with us. You are the book of our audience. And i thank you for being with us pleasantries to the podcast listeners. Now, let’s, go back to buy-in brian latto back and lisa padano talking about your donor experience. Okay, brian, anything else you can flush out detail wise about consistency, the consistency in those messaging? Yeah, i think it comes down to what it is that you’re going to measure because you know the old adage you can’t manage what you can’t measure, so you know, some of the things while obviously, the ultimate goal is to get a second gift or renewal at the time of an appeal. But you know, some of things that you need to be looking at under the hood to inform or you have to inform whether or not your experience is a good one is you gotta look at open rates, you gotta look at, click through rate and shares on social media, and my experience has been that, you know, there are so many digital tools out there that you can use to operationalize, let alone create your donor experience. But for those of us that our resource constraints you know, i think the basic donorsearch panitch mint system that can help you deploy emails but then also integrates ah, your facebook and your website. If you could make those things work, you’re going to be able to make a donor experience work. But the key thing as we talked about before the break is you have to be able to measure it, and measurement means consistent execution, and this is something that should be thought through. This donor experience by the organization, and not necessarily just the talent and tenacity of the fundraiser that’s employed by the organization. Okay, you know what, brian? Hold on, you know, it’s exactly right? I mean, i’m thinking about all the different calculators that not network for good has to literally walk a non-profit through the different metrics they should be thinking about, they’re donorsearch tension rate, their return on investment, if they’re spending certain amount of money on on a particular campaign, what is it bringing in? So we have we have brought kind of forward these metrics that they’re not intuitive to non-profits to say these air something’s, the highest level you should be paying attention to and then from that you can and they okay, how do i actually operationalize it into my non-profit brian’s, exactly, right? This is not a fundraisers problem to be solved it so isolating when non-profit seeing the way it is a non-profits problem to solve how do we operationally think about the money we need to bring in to support the programs you wantto we want to serve and that and carry out our mission? So bye by knowing what we’re doing so, it’s not just spaghetti up on the wall, let’s see what sticks thinking, you know, count, count, count, let six and be like, oh, yeah, we got ten threads upon the wall versus for the last time. So knowing what you’re aiming for being more more targeted with that segmentation being consistent and thought and and measurement you can only win, give me an idea of some of the things that we should analytics that we should be looking at. Yeah, there are a few, you know, i mentioned dahna retention rate. So how many of your donors are coming back repeatedly your year after year? Or ask after ask you want to be looking at your return on campaigns of your spending a certain amount of money for a direct mail drop? How much are you getting in return? Is it above a dollar? You know, you pay a dollar, get a dollar, you’re at least break even. You’re not you’re not losing money so there’s air, you know, to at the highest level. And then there were other ones, like brian was mentioning even a click through rate. You know how many of your e mails are going through what’s the hygiene of your of your donor list, you know, are you sending emails and they’re they’re bouncing or their hard bouncing, you know you need to be cleaning up that the database, otherwise the message is never going to be reached. So it’s, how many people are being reached are the clicking through? Are they is your is a language for which your packaging, that message appealing and that’s measured through that click through rate? Are they clicking the bait right? Are they? Are they following through on your ask so these are also, yeah, that everyone should should take note of that for my experiences of annual fund warrior for small and large organizations alike when it comes to donor experience, if you are getting a fifty percent click through rate on your engagement and retention emails, you are ninety percent more likely o r ninety times more likely rather to get a second gift within the same fiscal year, because what that fifty percent click through rate means is that you’re delivering the relevant content at an appropriate frequency that is peeking their interest. And if you’re doing that right, that means that you have someone that’s engaged and wants to consume the information that you’re putting out, and that should not stop any non-profit from asking again because it’s, an engaged enthusiastic on pre advocate donor-centric get a second gift, and the reason why that’s hugely important is there’s a lot of talk and commentary around the average of retention rate is what forty five percent or something make like that bryant yet the cost per acquisition is so high, so just like on the consumer side and the for-profit side it’s much more cost effective to retain a customer or donor-centric require new one. I’ve had lots of lots of guests say that exact same thing, i think the retention baizman like twenty five or thirty percent on dh, i’ve had many guests emphasized that, and as you said, you know, the cost of the cost of acquisition is so much higher than been retaining and and and it’s, you know, a relationship you don’t want. We’re trying to build relationships, you don’t want people dropping off that’s, this’s action just bad, bad for business. Yeah, and it just doesn’t feel good, you know? It is transactional, right? Right. Um okay. Let’s sum let’s. Just switch gears a little bit about some examples. Brian, you got you got a maybe a small midsize non-profit example, you khun, you can share with us of someone that improved. You know, the analytics improved fund-raising improved, etcetera. Yeah. One of my new favorite organizations called one pulse. They’re based its just outside of los angeles. Actually met the founder and executive director of twenty something year old in a coffee shop. When i was out there, unconference and anyways, fast forward gave him, you know, the technology stack from that good that he needed. And not only did he increase the number of donors that he had by about two hundred percent he’s up to about, you know, four hundred, donors now, but the major headline is that of those four hundred, you know, more than three hundred of them gave again. And then about one hundred fifty of them gave more than they did last year. And so when we unpack that this guy’s, the classic chief everything officer it’s one guy who has more passion than he does. Ah, grass of his, you know, time constraints and makes it all happen. He made it all happen by simply exploiting the functionality of technology, and that is setting up an email drip campaign that has a simple and very compelling image in it and a clever subject line in less than fifty words of content that that reminded a donor what the organization is doing every month, but also tells them the impact of what their support meant to the organization as relates to delivering, executing and scaling programs. And to me, it doesn’t get much better than that on dh it all comes down to, you know, intentionality and leveraging the existing functionality of his, you know, small but mighty software back, yeah, lisa yeah, well, i was just going to say a cz brian was talking. I was literally thinking about ah, conversation i was having with one of our product people. We were not is here having this conversation around, you know, the thought leadership of dahna experience, why it’s important? You know, we were living and breathing it and how we think about our product. We’re iterating on our product design all the time in this agile way of how is the donor touching this donor form? How are they choosing to click this button over this button? How would the font appear over this background versus this background? These of the thoughts and questions were talking about internally and never forget all the time, so we can always serve up that best tool and solution for our non-profits so they can then in and have the best experience for for their donors and bringing the most the most funding. So i think that it’s, it’s, it’s not just, you know, as you know, sitting here talking and, you know, it’s it’s a living, breathing, exactly. We’re living and breathing, and we’re kind of taking our own advice and thinking about how can we turn around this superior product that is putting donorsearch mirian ce kind of frontal lobe? Yeah, so we so where we need to encourage hyre non-profits to listeners to be very intentional and really and also a lot of testing i mean, it could be, you know, you may you may just have the wherewithal to do just simple abie testing one email, subject line versus another email subject line, right? Just not to be overly complex exactly right, but a lot of a lot. Of intention has to go into it, you know, the sort of slapdash thing that’s put together by an intern, you know, it doesn’t really know the organization that, well, it’s, you’re going to get returns consistent with the effort and thought that an intentionality that goes into it. Okay, all right, let’s, take our our last break. Lisa. Brian, if you would stand by for me, tell us credit card and payment processing, you could check out their video at tony dahna slash tony tell us explains the process of how business has switched to tell us and how you the non-profit that referred the business gets fifty percent of the revenue from the from the from all the transactions. Now this is transactional is talking about credit card transactions and fees and as tell us, earns fees from the companies that you refer, you get fifty percent of what they earn that simple. Okay, also, because you’re non-profit radio listener, if tello’s cannot reduce their credit card processing fees, then they’re going to send you two hundred fifty dollars. That part, that two hundred fifty dollars bonus is only for non-profit radio listeners. But i gotta tell you, it’s, probably not likely because odds are tell us is going to be able to save the money and that’s going to encourage the business to switch over, to tell us and then forget the two hundred fifty dollars, you’ve got a indefinite revenue stream because as that company processes credit card transactions, you are getting fifty percent of the revenue that tello’s earns from all those transactions indefinitely tell us, has one hundred percent satisfaction rate, so those businesses are not going to be leaving long tail passive revenue for you. Check it out, tony dahna em a slash tony, tell us. Thank you very much. Brian and lisa stood by. You stood by studiously. Alright, you’re not doing backchannel communications. Are you? Every every sponsor’s name tony. Oh, the girls are yeah. Are we talking about brandon? I was talking about consistency. We’re talking about message. I’m liking it. Tony dahna slash. We’re gonna have to come up with something for ah networked for good. We’re going to be on board. Where? There’s a lot to say about that coming up in the future. Future? Um, like march time. So yeah, i mean consistency branding, messaging right, you got it by learning something from seven and half years of listening to experts. Okay, um, you’re good student let’s. See? Thank you. Is that it? The not mentor? Not qualified to be a mentor. Coach. Student. Okay, like freshmen neo-sage thank you very much. A few more years, right? Shut off the mike. Now that we’ve had enough of her off, i was let’s. Go back to the lands and shirts like greater color. Like that part better. Yes. All right. So, brian, you’re not feeling left out there, are you, brian? No, not at all. Okay, you’re supposed to be here. We should. We should. I just wanna make this explicit met. Maybe i was probably understood early on, but you were supposed to be here. That was the whole point. You’re trying to get here in the studio, so we didn’t want you, but, you know, by phone is second. Yeah. Let’s. Talk about experience, right? Yeah. You’re years of experience. Customer experience today was not good. Yeah. That’s. That’s. Correct. Okay, i’m not going to ask you which which airlines you’re gonna fly, but you can tweet them. You know that you network for good has a lot of followers don’t. You probably didn’t want the corporate. Well, i know if it was the corporate card, if you have some degree of corporate sabat dissatisfaction that the the other vice president couldn’t get here, right? Okay, it was the corporate card. Maybe network for good should be tweeting. I don’t know who was we won’t say. All right, we only with a deposit of shout outs here. Um, okay, let’s, switch gears a little bit. Brian, i’m interested in some trends that you might be seeing emerging since we’re in the early stages of twenty eighteen. What what are you seeing coming on the horizon this year and beyond? Yeah, so a couple of things, i think the first is a real desire to, uh, automate fund-raising activities that all of this you’re not, you know, replace humans and, you know, the old fashioned stuff that works the best. But, you know, kind of what i was saying earlier, the senate forget it. Let’s design and experience and let’s put it in motion and watch it work for us, you know, kind of like engagement while we sleep. You are well non-profits we don’t upleaf we focus on delivering program, but you get what i’m saying, so that is one of the, i think, quickly growing emerging trends and feast out there, the sector and that is, what can we do to automate ous much of this experience so that we don’t have to be, you know, conjuring up emails every week and creating bliss, deploying them and testing subject line? Yes, but that that, uh the idea is, what do we do to create an experience that we think is the first and best generation and deploy it starts a man to measure it, you know? So what, we’re really keen from ten thousand feet is moving beyond donor-centric mint and really starting to talk about donor it’s one thing to make sure you have all your names and gift amounts and addresses in a cr m r donor-centric management system that’s great, but that that now is kind of like the most functional basics of fund-raising now you need to expand the aperture and say, well, what can we do to actually engage our donors with technology and not just doing it through, you know, likes and follows on facebook? But what do we do to automate some of those? Yeah, because it is. How do we make that accessible to small organizations that deposed tio? Very large ones that would buy, you know, hub spot for marquette owes or, you know, all those big, huge automation. And and so what we see is increased chadband interest and experimentation with automation of as much of the fund-raising function beginning with communication is possible. And automation does not have to sacrifice personalization that, you know, we just had it. Pardon me, brian. What you say got no gosh, no. Okay. Good. I got you. Okay. Yeah, we just had i just had a me sample ward on ceo of inten, our social media contributor last week. E-giving you know, very much the same sort of future. Look, andi, she explained how in ten of an organization that has an office in portland, oregon, but also has employees virtually uses automation toe run their office and to maintain their membership of, like, forty thousand or so. You know what? Maybe the membership is not big, but their constituencies, like forty five thousand, something personalization is definitely i mean, this is your right, brian. We’re past you. Know, get off spreadsheets moved to a crn now use that cr m segment and you don’t have to sacrifice personalization, lisa’s, champion jumper the bitter no, i was just going to say, you know, we we we cast forward it’s interesting because the the ese for which it is to give has changed, and platforms like facebook, among others, have completely changed that dynamic and is actually creating an interesting situation for non-profits because in one breath, you want to say how lovely all this money is coming in twenty five bucks at the clip from all these different directions, my revenue line is growing, but then when you dig a little deeper and it’s like, but are you able to build a community with those folks, are you able to get them to become the subscription? Geever exgagement true engagement it’s a lot harder for these non-profits to think about how do i turn that transactional giver? Because maybe tony you gave cause? Bryan asked you, right? But you don’t have a connection to my non-profit you know, i have to go back to you, tony, and say, hey, how can i build a relationship with you? How? Can i engage you, tony, and thread you into what i am doing over here into my mission? So you feel compelled to give on your own whether brian asked or not? So that kind of yeah, no, please go point it comes into, uh donorsearch mirian there’s also relationship between donor experience and board participation and fund-raising now we all probably accept as no one joins the board so they can ask their friends and family for money. But if staff does it, writing creek, that culture of philanthropy than and equipped trained board’s view it, then something good happens. But my point here is my experiences sends that boardmember zehr, reticent to ask their friends, come for money because non-profits are habitually poor at creating an experience that makes that boardmember feel proud and that’s not to say that boardmember is ashamed of the organization, but what the boardmember doesn’t want is that that donor that she or he or say bring to the table gets dropped into a you know, a same spray funnel of getting his letters, reports and every every invitation, uh, any type of event that that non-profits having the boardmember is very conscious. Of what experience that they want, or that they realized that that friends, family and co worker will have, as a result, e-giving to that organization. And so if if non-profits out there, if you want more board members to participate fund-raising you’ve got to create an experience for donors that raise rises to the level of satisfaction and pride of every one of your board members, so they’re feel proud. Teo asked their friends for money and have their friends be donors of to your organization and what brian was saying of having a solution that is a little set it and forget it. It’s this idea that you can have a tool that embeds within the tool all these best practices because at the end of the day, the non-profit doesn’t want to be thinking about did i bring in that hundred dollars that are bringing that thousand dollars in here? I mark right that’s not why they’re there that some what’s motivating them that’s, that’s like a means baizman end. So the tools that are stepping up to solve this problem are the ones that said, hey, you know what? We get that, right? We’re putting embedded. Best practices into this tool, so you’re going to focus on other things, but still trying to bring in that money and create that relationship in the most effective, meaningful way, because that’s what’s going to propel your non-profit for-profit forward and help you grow. Brian, i love that connection that you made between your donor experience and bored participation that’s a real that’s a connection i’ve never heard before on and i think it’s significant, and it and that could be a great topic for aboard conversation. Bored ceo, senior fundraiser conversation are you satisfied with the experience? I mean, it was some riel introspection that could be a difficult conversation, but one that’s important to have. Brian, i have to i brian brian, i got a limit. You we got, like, thirty seconds left. So this is your wrap up that you and then i’m gonna i’m gonna shut you off. So go but twenty eight seconds got it. So number one things that each and every non-profit should be doing this year is putting a stake in the ground and coming up with their first iteration of a donor experience. Um and keep it simple and keep it cost. Okay, you can animate email your website and facebook together you are catapulted yourself into a realm of hyre functionality that will help you raise more money. We got to leave it there. Brian lauterbach, vice president of programs, impact and sustainability and network for good lisa banana, vice president, digital marketing network for good they’re both network for good dot com where the forest spelled out lisa brian, thank you so much. Thanks. Such a pleasure. Thank you. My pleasure. Next week, joe garrick and your online giving plan i think you’re going to see some threads continue from this week. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for smaller midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio whether cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and tell his credit card in payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dot, m a slash tony tell us he still loves us, tony, that i’m a bit lise or creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by the excellent susan chavez on our music is by this very cool. Scott steiner, brooklyn with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 22, 2017: Robertson v. Princeton

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Doug White: Robertson v. Princeton

Doug White is the author of “Abusing Donor Intent: The Robertson Family’s Epic Lawsuit Against Princeton University.” He returns to tell how trust eroded between donor and university, and a $35 million gift from 1961 ended in a messy lawsuit. He’s got lots of lessons to share to help you avoid the same. (Originally aired May 9, 2014)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Hey, you could catch maria simple on msnbc this weekend. She’s going to be on your business with j j ramberg on sunday at seven thirty a m eastern, so check out our prospect research contributor maria simple on msnbc sunday morning. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with care. Arai assis, if you wormed in with the idea that you missed today’s show robertson v princeton doug white is author of the book abusing donor intent, the robertson family’s epic lawsuit against princeton university. He returns to the show to tell us how trust eroded between donor and university and a thirty five million dollars gift from nineteen, sixty one ended in a messy lawsuit. You’ve got lots of lessons to share to help you avoid the same and that originally aired on may ninth twenty fourteen on tony’s take two five minute pg marketing we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by wagner, cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not. A business you’re non-profit apple owes accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com here is doug white with robertson v princeton first piece. I am very glad to welcome back to the show and back to the studio. Doug wait, author, professor, advisor to non-profits and philanthropists he’s on the faculty in the masters in fund-raising program at columbia university. Abusing donorsearch intent is his fourth book. You’ll find him at doug white dot net. Welcome back, doug. Wait. It’s, good to be back and to see you again. I have to ask the question. That’s on everybody’s mind though. Cerebral ischemia. What is that? That’s? A well, that this week that’s that’s. What? I’ll suffer if i find out that someone had not heard this week’s show a cerebral it’s a form of a stroke ice since kenya’s had a sense that’s what? It was what i wanted to ask you, being an attorney and all. You probably come up with all of these terms. Yeah, well, we make the well back. When i was practicing law now we would make these things. Up there the way were we would defend against people who had made them up as if the slip and fall in aisle seven on the relish that’s that caused it, and an approximate cause of the ischemia twelve years later, that that was there was actually a cause and effect relationship and that’s what we were trying to defeat it’s great to see things haven’t changed and that’s actually kind of a segue way to a lawsuit story. I don’t know, i’m sure that’s true and that’s why i don’t practice law any longer because i was not interested in the relish bill in aisle seven, but this lawsuit that we’re going to talk about is a lot more meaningful than then slip and falls and trips and falls. You you spend your a lot of time thinking about ethics and fund-raising last time you were on, we were talking about your book around ethics, and this is, uh, donorsearch trust and loyalty. How were all these? How are all these related in your in your professorial authorship? Mind? Well, someone might accuse me of having a cerebral something else because of all of the mishmash that goes on. In my head on this stuff. But i won’t. But really, i think that there’s a lot to think about in the nonprofit world that we don’t otherwise think about, we think about fund-raising and we think about boards and all of those things are important, but i’m tryingto get a handle on what society does with its non-profit sector and how the non-profit sector responds back, and so it takes me to these corners that are really weird, and in this particular case, it took me to a story that had something to do with trust and a lot of money and a huge university. And the question is, how could someone accuse princeton of doing something so egregious and that’s? Not an easy question? Answer. In fact, when i went into this story, i didn’t think princeton was really all that guilty of anything, uh, ok, because, uh, as i read through the book, i sensed you trying to be objective. But in the end, i was left with the sense that you felt princeton really had wronged this. The robertson family. You want to tell the end right now? I’m trying to get people to buy the book here in the story. There you go there. Is going to see oil or alert? We only have an hour together. There’s lots of information that people going by the book around because you were just going to school is going to touch the were scratching the surface that’s in a mere hour. The book is very well worth buying. Nine just kind of yes, i know, but now that was the that was okay, we’ll get into the details of that, but i think it’s sort of a tease, you know, that is that was kind of what i was left with, and two thousand six i had finished the book called charity on trial and was interviewed on television station in washington, and somebody brought up the princeton case because i had written about it a little bit, it hadn’t gone anywhere. It was still in the lawsuit stage, and the interviewer asked what i thought of the princeton case, and i thought that princeton had a pretty good case to defend themselves on. I said that at the time, and i felt that for a long time because i like i’m sure many, many people feel like a place like princeton really has its act. Together and is a pretty good place, and i say that knowing that it’s, i still feel that way. But there were issues that i discovered along the way that i felt really made them look bad. Okay? Okay, and we’re going toe t c we’re going to follow your evolution, okay, you’ve you’ve you’ve come, you’ve come around. I know you’re thinking has evolved. Let’s, let’s not tease any longer. This this goes back to ah nineteen. Sixty one gift from charles roberts heimans set up a little bit for you. Charles robertson, co founder of the great atlantic and pacific tea company the mp supermarkets nineteen sixty one gift to princeton university. Well, let me just do a little bit of a nuance on that. Exactly. The wife, marie robertson, who is the heiress of the mp fortune. She funded it, right? She actually tent. Technically, did fundez yes way say that there were donors, but technically, there was one donor, and that was marie robertson. Okay, but charles robertson, her husband was such a large player in the gift you’re gonna you’re gonna hold my feet to the fire on the details. Well, you’re an attorney and i can’t. Well, i was i was that’s the second time. Now you’ve accused me. I’m not an attorney, sabelo you’re recovering attorney. Yeah. I mean, i do fund-raising more than i do. Attorney work. It plays a part, but i didn’t say it disparagingly. I say it with no i d s marriage, but but you should hold me to the fire because you wrote a book and oh, and i’m glossy. Andi, i you know, ignoring details. Okay. Yes, go ahead. Marie robertson was actually the donor. Yeah, technology. But we think of them as donors and that’s. Fine. She was the heiress of the mp fortune and her one tenth share of the stock when it became available to be invaded after the trust was dissolved in nineteen. Fifty seven was about ninety million dollars. She got ninety million dollars one day from the trust. And charles, her husband, her second husband. I was an investment adviser and he new two things. One is not only should this stock portfolio within the family be diversified, he also did not have any faith in the management of the mp at that time, after the original people died off. He didn’t think it was going to go anywhere. And he was actually right on dh. You could predict anything, but in this particular case, he was right. The mp actually filed for bankruptcy just a few years ago. I don’t know what status today, but it did have a lot of difficulty. The stock did go down, so they were right to a diversify. And also the other part of that in terms of wealth management planning was to make a charitable gift to save on huge, huge taxes. The marginal tax rate at that time was ninety one percent. So this brought them to the woodrow wilson school at princeton university. It did. Ah, charles was a graduate of princeton, so let’s get that out and they were both very interested. Or he was really the intellectual driver behind the gift and it’s purpose. He was very interested, but they both were. They were both interested in international relations. This was an era of that. Today we find it hard to even think happened. There was an optimism in the united states, and there was a lot of challenge because of the height of the cold war, too. In nineteen sixty one, kennedy had just been elected. And so there was the sense of america. Khun do it. There was this idea that we were going to go to the moon, which we did. There was this idea that we could almost conquer anything which we didn’t. But there was a sense, this vibrancy and the robertsons felt that it would be really great if we could go to a really great school, like princeton, the woodrow wilson school which existed before the gift, by the way, and have people go into the foreign service of the government to go out and spread american values, not in any political sort of away or ideological sort of way other than democracy, but do it through the idea of foreign service through a peaceful way. And so the idea was to get students who were at the woodrow wilson school graduate program to then go into the foreign service oppcoll the negotiations ensued, of course, a lot of talk about what the donor’s objectives were, and how to achieve those objectives of a sze yu put it, you know, the broad goal of strengthening the foreign service in the united states. And using the doing that through the woodrow wilson school, their phrase was strengthening the united states government pretty clear, it’s clear, but it’s also abroad. The specific phrase that i think we are probably gonna have to talk about a little bit is the phrase particular emphasis, the idea that students would go into the foreign service area or some branch of the government that had dealings with the foreign service, and that the school would put particular emphasis that’s in the document on putting those students in those positions. Okay, we’re gonna take our first break. Onda of course, doug white stays with us. We’re going to keep talking about the the evolution of this, the the gift and the lawsuit and the lessons, of course. That’s, you know, that’s important that we want to leave you with takeaways so that you can avoid something like this may not be epic in your in your case, but could still be very seriously want help you avoid problems like princeton had with his donors. So stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick, ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Duitz welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m sorry, i can’t send live listener love today. Ah, directly live, because we’re pre recording today, but doesn’t you were listening live. I send you my thanks. Thanks for listening. And, of course, podcast pleasantries to those of you listening everywhere else but live very glad you’re with us. The now we have an hour, but we only have an hour. So we have to fast forward a little bit now, too. How things started. Teo devolve from charles and marie the parents to bill robertson, the son of charles and marie. Things started to break down over time in the in the relationship. One of the interesting aspects of this case is they started to break down a lot sooner than princeton had been saying. Charles robertson himself was very upset. Within a few years of the gift with the lack of results at the school, he had done a lot of research on what the school could do. He had talked to important government officials before setting up the foundation. And by the way, this was a foundation to support the program at the woodrow wilson school. Today, it would be known as, ah supporting organization back in nineteen sixty one, they didn’t have that, but that’s what effectively acted as and so he was on the board as well as two other family members. So there were three family members and for people from princeton on the board of this foundation called the robertson foundation that’s important, i think three family members, four people from princeton, absolutely. That was important for a lot of reasons that turned out to be one of the reasons that there was eventually a lawsuit, but it was also important for the irs to give its blessing to the charitable stature of this organization. So charles robertson knew that princeton would have the four votes they would have control. There was no real question in his mind, but he also wanted to have the families input too over the years over the generations. And so there was this balancing act that they were trying to accomplish, and i think they were all going into this in good faith. There’s no, in my view, any question about that? At the point, the gift was made, but there was always some question as to what the school was going to do. In other words, this was going to be a great program for international relations, and it is today. And i want to be clear about that it’s one of the best in the united states or the best in the world. But the gift was made in order to make room for students to go into the foreign service. That was the whole point of the gift. That was the point of the gift. It wasn’t to make the woodrow wilson school great. It was to put people into the foreign service or in the foreign relations positions in the united states government and that’s what wasn’t happening. And only a few years after that, charles robertson started to look at this and say, what’s our progress, and over the years, i don’t know the exact figure right now, but up until twenty or two, i would say perhaps thirteen to fourteen percent of the students actually went into the government, which was an abysmal failure from charles robertson’s perspective, and so he was upset from pretty pretty much the beginning, and i got my hands on documents that proves this. This was not something that bill robertson is inventing he’s able to show me letters that his father wrote angrily. I mean, there was a lot of emotion in these things to show that he was very upset with the progress of the woodrow wilson school bill robinson comes into the picture because he’s young at this point in nineteen seventy two i think he graduated from princeton himself, so he wasn’t really old. He came out of the board after one of the other family members went off and took basically his father’s place on the board on his family portion of the board in nineteen eighty one after his father died. And so bill took over that mantle of keeping a sharp eye on the progress of the woodrow wilson school graduate program, and continue to be unhappy with it. So it did go from charles to bill, but another dynamic here that we don’t often times take into account. What i tried to describe in the book was bill’s intense loyalty to his parents and in this particular case, his father he felt that his father and mother put this gift the hugest gift basically that had ever been given to a university to that time. And he felt that things weren’t being done correctly. And and his mother, too, was very there’s. Ah, something you say in the book that that bill feels very strong that his mother relied on on princeton and this gift up until her death? Yes, on dh. Trusted them. Yes. Yes, this trust was a big deal, and trust is a big deal in all of our lives, and i don’t know that we really analyze it well or feel it about it their way we might, but i feel strongly that both bill excuse me. Both charles and marie were hoping for more from this gift, and they were trusting princeton probably more than they should have been, but that’s another issue point is that by the time bill took over his seat on the board, things were not improving. And so bill kept up that as i say that that i on on the progress, that isn’t what triggered the lawsuit, but that was always ah, thorn in the side of the of the meetings on dove, the progress of the woodrow wilson school, they were not happy on dh there. I don’t know that there was based on what i’ve seen, i can’t say that i would actually say that there would be a point in that forty year history where they were ever happy. Okay, um, i have my favorite character in in the in this epic lawsuit, but i’m not going i know that i want to. Hold that dahna print co-branded an investment committee plays a big role here, and i think that has a lot and has a lot to do with the donor university relationship. Print go. You’re right, it’s the princeton investment company, i think. Oh, company. Yeah, those committee no. Close, close. Not bad. I’m gonna check you on that. Okay. Okay, go ahead. Check me out. Okay. While you’re doing that, i didn’t bring the book with me that i never bring the book because i don’t want to be, you know, page seventy four. You said all right, i’ll have to check later. This is the problem. Open book tests in high school. That’s why they don’t want to go ahead. All right. So the idea of going into a broader strategy for investing was anathema to bill, as it would have been to charles. In fact, part of the original document talked about how investments had to be put together. The idea was that print cho had been established a few years earlier, and the princeton and dahna, which had gone into several billions of dollars. At that point, i was going to be managed in a more modern way from them or traditional life and bill was way in the early eighties. Now we are in the early eighties. Yeah, we are actually. And charles did not want to get too risky with the investments, and neither did bill and bill, by the way, grew into a financial investment advisory capacity in his own right outside of this. And so he had some chops when it came to investigate. He also didn’t want to go to what became a pretty big norm at university investment houses. And that is to say, by the nineties late nineties, especially the idea of alternative investments was very, very popular, and the thieves were hedge fund these head from investing foreign in foreign companies. Yes. Now every every i have to say that what i was in this business in the investment business for charities, i understood there were lots and lots of asset classes and that’s fine way should always be on the cutting edge of understanding how finances and investments work. But they’re became a time when everything was going up and this happened throughout the two thousands to ana and what became really popular was what we call alternatives. Or the alternative investments like you say hedge funds and other things, and bill was really against that idea and print cho was going forward. He went down to print go because they were in another office and said, show me around and tell me what’s going on. And he was just not impressed with the idea of alternative investments and, quite frankly, again oppressions being what it is in twenty late that’s exactly what brought down these university endowments. In fact, princeton was so reliant upon investments they had about fifty percent or a little bit more in their endowment devoted to alternatives which, when i was in the world of investments back in the early nineties, we would think of two or three percent of a large and and so it got turned upside down, and that the tension was whether print coe should be investing the foundation assets along with the university endowment or and in the eyes of the roberts bill robertson that it should not print go should not have control over the investment exactly and that’s what triggered the lawsuit? It was that issue if you’re looking at one moment where the decision was made to actually file a lawsuit. It was one bill robertson finally got fed up after the after the board for two three voted to go to print cope, put the assets in the print going by the way that thirty five million dollars had grown to about eight hundred million dollars. That thirty five million dollars had grown to about eight hundred billion dollars by two thousand. Wow. Okay, that’s. Excellent perspective. All right, now we’re in the lawsuit. What else did the the lawsuit alleged besides the investment? Misappropriation? Well, not miss probation, but they were a couple of expenses and things like that. That right lawsuit alleged what happens? And you probably know this much better than i. But i learned this a little bit more during the course of writing the book. There was a complaint filed. We feel something is wrong, x and then there’s a response. And then in the process of looking at the issue’s, the plaintiffs have an opportunity to go through what’s called discovery. And in the process of that discovery, they discovered a lot of things that they didn’t know beforehand. So the original complaint had to do a lot. With print go, and it also had a lot to do with why students weren’t going into the foreign service. But during discovery, the plaintiff’s found that a lot of the money wasn’t being spent well, either. For example, people excuse me. Other departments at princeton were getting money from the foundation, and those departments weren’t really helping with the woodrow wilson school. The school princeton defends that and says, i’ll just use the phrase they use academic freedom. They say that academic freedom allowed them to make all of these decisions and bill’s perspective, as well as as well as the attorneys. Of course, for the family was that academic freedom, while it’s a cherished concept and we really want to make sure that we never really violated it still has its limits. You can’t, for example, well, maybe you can we don’t know this never was adjudicated by judge or jury so it’s we’ll never really know. But there was this guy this comment during the depositions, where the attorney for for the robertsons asked one of the president’s what what kind of expenditure would be allowed? And the person said, well, almost anything and the attorney said well, how about the hiring a basketball coach? Would that be allowed? And he said yes, oh, my yes, oh, my that’s a university president. That was the university. Yes saying this i forget whether it was the president or dean, i think it was the president and he said yes, because if we need to hire someone at the woodrow wilson school who likes basketball or whose husband or wife, teacher, our coaches, basketball or some connection and that brings that person to the woodrow wilson school, then we will spend that money on the basketball coach’s salary. Well, you can imagine how the robertsons would react to that. Yeah, and understanding that there is an idea, a fundamental, cherished ideal of academic freedom, we still are violating something very fundamental when that answer comes to the fore. Um, now listeners know that we have jargon jail on twenty martignetti non-profit radio, but i didn’t want to put you over there very simple. You know, the complaint that’s just i’m going to get you out of jargon job because i’m glad that you’re back for a third time on the show, so an attorney is going to get me. Out of the u s attorney’s doing all the time. We’re not all they are not. I’m not practicing law. I am not practicing law. There is that explicit. If i made that clear, those who do practice law often are getting people out of prison. It’s one of the noble or things that we do is restore someone’s freed that they do. They do pronoun trouble eyes restoring freedom to those erroneously held incarcerated. So yeah, the complaint is just that’s the way you you have a complaint. So that’s, how you start a lawsuit and discovery is exchange of all kinds of documents, and in this case it was emails and letters. Metoo certainly notes of notes of conversations you wanted. There was a lot. There was a lot in there that, as you said, the robertsons discovered that they hadn’t known about what was going on with the money in this discovery process of thousands of pages, you know, thousands of pages. Not all of them were stingingly terrible. Now, of course, a lot of it’s very mundane. Very, very monday, and you just have to sift through it because you never know when that nugget is. Going to pop out. But, yes, they found that this money was being spent all over the place at princeton and princeton will say, look, a woodrow wilson school is a great place. Okay, well, there’s, no question about that nobody’s arguing that but what we’re talking about is the intention of the donor and the document that was signed in nineteen sixty one that princeton agreed to, and so that the woodrow wilson school is a great place is true. But your relevant to this this question, the other thing was academic freedom. We can spend money pretty much however we want to. And the robertsons wanted to pull back on that. The another big issue in this was the how the robertsons legal fees are being paid. And that was being paid through the banbury fund. Another robertson family foundation let’s touch on that just lights. Just a little. Okay, princeton didn’t want that to happen, and the robertson said that they could do it. They got opinion letters from their attorneys and also had some precedents from the irs, both in private letter rulings and revenue rulings. So they were, i think, firm ground, but princeton still fights that battle today. They still say that it was improper for the banbury fund, too. Pay the robertson legal expenses. But from what i could say they were they were in a good place to do that. The robertsons work. Okay, um, starting to hint at some of our lessons for later on there was issue in the complaint also or in the subsequent complaint after the discovery around financial transparency. Yes. And disclosures that had not been made to the yeah, the robertsons family. Towboat robertson. So not only do we have these money, these dollars being spent their being spent without the family’s knowledge one was a a building that was being constructed almost entirely from the robertson. That was wallace all while, asshole. Yes. And if you ask bill robertson what the big reasons he went to court work, wallace hall was one of the three and a large part of that was they were not told this was taking place. So in other words, they took the position that not only could they use this money outside of direct connection to the woodrow wilson school, they didn’t have to tell the family about it. Forty three is this warner hall? I’m sorry. While us all was not part of the woodrow wilson school, not at all. It was not so to bill robertson. This is as far afield is hiring the basketball coach and paying for it exactly. He was very upset about that, and i don’t blame him. I mean, there were a lot of places where princeton didn’t have toe go to a lawsuit that could have done so much, and we’ll get to those in lessons later on. But when wallace hall came about, bill was livid. Yeah, well, s o you know, the institution does bad things, and then it covers it up and that’s the that’s, the financial transparency that was that was lacking, and it became part of the complaint. I’ve got more, of course, with doug white and the robertson lawsuit coming up first. Pursuant, their newest resource, the intelligent fund-raising health check downloaded for nine key performance indicators to measures your organization’s health. Ten universal characteristics of orders that are thriving in fund-raising eleven pipers piping, twelve drummers drumming i confess i had looked those up. I thought it was eleven lords leaping and i think it should be because you want to hit you wanna punch the the thehe liberations eleven lorts leaping i think i think the blue a chance that well, the who wrote the twelve days of christmas i think you blew a chance anyway, it’s not eleven lords leaping things. Only seven of those, but go to aa teo tony dot slash pursuant that’s where you’ll find the intelligent fund-raising health check acquisition campaigns pursuing had the webinar to help you acquire new donors. Now watch the archive, it’s. Never too late. Well, it’s going to be too late soon, actually, but it’s not too late. Now again, tony dahna slash pursuing the webinar is going to drop off that custom page that pursue it has for non-profit radio listeners. So get there. Check out that web in r and you can download the intelligent fund-raising health check also. Tony dot m a slash pursuant you gotta use a capital p wagner, cps. 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Get the non-profit software, the accounting software that is built for non-profits from the ground up, and that is from apple owes appaloosa counting it’s designed for non-profits from the beginning, i think you got that you got the message non-profit wizard dot com that’ll take you to ap clothes and you’ll discover apple of accounting for non-profits now time for tony’s take two my latest video is five minute marketing for planned e-giving i stripped out the most important moments from this show several weeks ago where i did the whole first segment of the show on planned giving marketing, but five minute plan giving marketing quick, quick bursts for your events for your newsletter, whether it’s printer, digital for some printing when you’re printing emails and things, sorry when you’re printing envelopes, envelopes lots of quick ideas in there, distilled almost thirty minutes down to the essential three very tough task. But check out the video it sze three minutes of five minute marketing for plan giving it. Of course, that is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two. And here is more of doug white talking about the robertson v princeton epic lawsuit. The great you’re still here, right? I am cool. So we have now this lawsuit and the discovery and the and the amended complaint based on what the robertsons learned through discovery. And this lawsuit is on for six between six and seven years. I imagine the relationship was pretty damn difficulty between the foundation board and the princeton university. Ah, the administration and the people who are on the board from princeton university. They have to get together for board meetings. Excuse me. Yes, they do. And the bill, sister catherine ernst, described it as having a boardmember and then attorney, then the boardmember and then attorney all around the table, and not only the family, but also the princeton side of the board. It was very tense. They describe how in the early days when charlie was alive, that the relations were very good. There would be lunch at the president’s house. There would be a lot of camaraderie, even the problems were developing. The relations were pretty good by the time the lawsuit comes around. Nobody’s talking. Anybody aboard? Yeah, board meetings. And it became the antithesis of what? And again, i teach board governance at columbia. And we talk about the need for ah, transparency and fluidity. And, you know, trust and none of that was was was there during this lawsuit so it’s very, very tense there, even they were actually having meals in separate rooms. That’s, right? They family really saying we’re family boardmember zand the princeton university board members would would have lunches in separate rooms. That’s, right? They did need an adult to come in and take things. It was they ended up doing there for the settlement, but at this point, it was just i can’t imagine how tense that had to be. Yeah, and over six, seven years, yes, right, yes. Okay, um, let’s. Bring us to the settlement. Twenty eight a lot of things are going on. First of all, it’s true that the robertsons we’re running out of money, even though the banbury fund was funding the lawsuits, the love fees added up to about forty five million dollars on each side, which is an incredible about the money and even a place like the banbury fund was starting to feel that now, if i’ve been a part of those teams, i’d probably still be practicing law. Yes, i would have been. The buildings are so easy when you’re in a lawsuit, but i just never got that far. I stuck it out for two years, and i never made it to this level. Well, the judge retired the one that everybody bonded. Teo in light and respected. He retired. The judge’s clerk left to go work for the princeton lawyers, which was interesting. The new judge could only give it one day a week. And that was maria psychic. And she i was only going to be able to do it for one day a week, which stretched the lawsuit out even further. Give a dog a car there. And so there was a lot of delay and and i get this even though we kind of make fun of this from time to time, that even though there was a delay and there was a slow down, the work still had to be continued. The law fees were continuing. And so the question of being able to pay for this was a very acute one for the robertson family. On the other side of the coin, the princeton investments were going south because the crisis was taking place. And they were, as i say, and alternatives. And so they were having a liquidity problem. I think they probably only source of liquidity. Most fat during that time was probably tuition paying parents was just a very tight time. They might not acknowledge it that way, but that’s pretty much how i see it. And so they were both ready. I think, to talk settlement. They had tried beforehand they didn’t get anywhere. Bill originally wanted to take the entire endowment away and put it somewhere else. And that would have been a really riel problem for the princeton. Because if for no other reason, it would have been a real blow psychologically to this story. I really university. I get what they wanted to do there, so they were going back and forth. And the question was, should we force the university to repay all these dollars that they had misspent, which could have been an excess of about two hundred billion dollars back into the foundation? Or can we just take the foundation away? Or can we split away from the foundation and they wanted independence? They wanted to say, okay, we want money to go do our own thing, that is, to say what my parents were doing, who his parents were doing, and the and princeton really didn’t want that, so they said, okay, what we’ll do is we’ll consider chopping off some of this money and giving it to you if you let us keep the rest of it, you guys go away and that’s, basically, what happened? They did bring in an adult david gal fan from milbank tweed who came in and his whole approach was saying not to say who had the better argument legally, his approach was, how can we get out of this mess? And i think he was a good voice. He was not part. Of the litigation. And he was a good voice to be brought in at this time, and he actually did the settlement. He was very good. And the settlement wass that princeton would reimburse the banbury fund the forty five million dollars for the legal fees. And in addition to that, over a period of time, the university would pay fifty million dollars to a new foundation. It’s called the robinson foundation for government. And it now exists it’s, a family foundation, and has its own work and does what it’s predecessor was supposed to do that is to put students into the federal government. But it is completely independent. Totally invested in university. Yeah. And then the rest of the money which probably added up to around six hundred fifty or seven hundred million dollars. Because during that period of time, during the crisis, the dahna came dahna shade. But let’s say six hundred million then was left. I don’t know exactly. The robinson foundation, by the way, was dissolved the original one. And so the money that was in it and was left for princeton went into its general endowment specifically for the woodrow wilson school and today the robertson family does not have anything to say about how that money is being used. There is a complete divorce. Okay, i think that can bring us teo somethings that charity’s can can take away. Um, i still haven’t revealed my favorite character, but we haven’t talked about that person. Um, agreements, should we start with a gram? And this was all went back to the to the phrase a particular emphasis. So do we, which was in which was in the original document creating the foundation? Yes, let’s. Talk about what? What level of scrupulous nous we need to have around agreements with donors. Let me preface it by saying the this this conversation, this part of it right now has a lot to do with understanding that this lawsuit was a story and it’s true and it’s big but it’s really? A reason for being important is that almost any charity and almost any donor i can get into this bind. So it’s not just ah, large family or a large university. Any endowed gift or any restricted gift really, really needs to be put together with what i would call the lessons you want. Bring us. We could easily be talking about a ten or fifteen thousand dollars gift easily, easily and that’s really one of the big messages here? This isn’t just about princeton has got a lot of interest, but it’s not just about princeton and so donors and charities both have to be aware of this when we say when we use phrases like in with particular emphasis, it has a meaning, but it doesn’t have an absolute meaning doesn’t mean that one hundred percent of the students are goingto go to the federal government, but it also doesn’t mean zero percent or ten percent. So we have to have an understanding you and i about what particular emphasis means if it were seventy or eighty or ninety percent, i don’t think charles robertson would have had any problem. I think even if he were sixty or sixty five percent, part of the problem was not just the results, and this is another thing they discovered was that princeton never really cared whether the students we’re going to go and the evidence of that was they never asked on the application whether they were interested in going into the federal government, so there. Was that part of the equation? So and i think you can relate to this as an attorney, we sometimes think of the laws being black and white and here’s what’s, right, and here’s what’s wrong. But a lot of phrases we use are are vague on purpose. They they’re meant to be because we can’t assign a value our specific numeric value to the word emphasis we just can’t do that. And yet, it’s an important idea in an agreement. So if a person is making an agreement today, one lesson is too if you’re going to use that kind of a phrase, uh, define it a little bit more than they did. One one word that gets us into trouble, i think, and fund-raising agreements and that is the word in perpetuity of the phrase in perpetuity because in perpetuity has has a meaning if you look it up. It’s very clear what that meaning is it means forever and forever has a meaning. And so, by definition, we cannot put into legitimately into an agreement, in my view, the word perpetuity because we cannot know what’s going to happen forever. So we have to be more careful. And crafting the language that we’re using. I want i made a gift to my own high school. This is a in the nineteen eighties of deferred gift. Where’d you go to high school exeter, phillips, exeter. And it was back in the day when pulled income funds were popular. You probably remember that yourself. None of our listeners will. There were there was a thing it’s, an antique drug in jail. Again. Well its way. But we have to define it’s now an out of date. Really? Life, income gift. A method through which donors got variable income for for their lives. And the variability became a big issue when interest rates were declining and the varying the variations were all down. And these have pretty much falling out of favor among among non-profits so that’s enough for me. So then come front. When i was doing the agreement, they said and i wanted to honor my english teacher and they said, this is back in like, nineteen, eighty four they said, you know, this going to sound weird, but we might not teach english forever, right? I thought, how is that possible? But it may not be possible. But it was also not conceivable that we wouldn’t be riding horses forever. So had an escape plus, saying that if this ever did happen that they be able to use it to a purpose is closest possible. Something, something that deals with ian practicability of yes, continuing the gift. Yes, and i’m tryingto bring this and tryingto respond to your question about how donors can and charities. Khun b take steps to avoid what happened to princeton so that we don’t just use words capriciously. We just have about a minute before a break, and there’s certainly board implications here, too. I mean, the princeton board reviewed the documentation and probably was involved in in a good degree in the negotiations board oversight of gift. Yes, this is a good example of that. Now, i don’t really fault the board at princeton to too much because it was nineteen, sixty one and not twenty fourteen, and so we’ve learned a lot in the last half century about board oversight and so forth, but that said thie gift was basically shoved through. It was a last minute quick kind of a thing had nothing to do with there at the time current capital campaign and the president really did not have the fullest discussion with the board about this gift, and they should have so board oversight of that process is really critical. We could go out front brake, and when we come back, doug and i will keep talking about the lessons from this epic lawsuit robertson v princeton like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, i’m bill mcginley, president, ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. As we make our agreements more specific and and defined terms as you’re suggesting, we can actually get into trouble because the specificity now binds us two teo, try to predict what’s going to happen and try to predict what issues are goingto a result. So there’s a there’s a balance between specificity and flexibility there is, and when i was saying earlier that we need to be more specific, er not use words capriciously, you’re right, i had that in mind to that there is a balance and it’s there’s always going to be tension. And so the question is, how do we avoid this kind of a thing going into the future? And one of the things that you can avoid has nothing to do with the agreement. It has everything to do with relations. If princeton had done so much differently, this wouldn’t have gone to where it went. But it was the lack of trust, the erosion of trust over the decades that really set the stage for this. Then you can go to the agreement say you’re not doing this well if you have the trust going on at the same time, you don’t need to go to the agreement, say you are or are not doing something but that’s it so so that’s probably the best lesson that anybody can learn from a charitable perspective anyway, to stay in touch with the airs at the donors and the heirs forever. This is an obligation, and if you don’t feel you can do that, you don’t feel you, khun obligate your success is that the organization to do that, then don’t promise to do that that’s part of the deal here in plan giving, when i was in plan giving, doing these kinds of things and talking to you too plant giving directors, i would say you’re you’re actually making an agreement here that will go on for well past the time you’re here, and probably perhaps well past the time you’re even alive. So many generations of successors after you are going to have to do what you’re agreeing to do today, keep that idea in mind when you make these agreements and this particular agreement, nothing was going to erode the idea of a federal government or the need for foreign relations, but still there could have been mohr a trust and more. Specificity, i think, in the agreement, although i don’t think the specificity was the issue here, i think the idea was pretty clear, i mean, with particular emphasis might be a vague term, but it does have enough of a meaning and enough of an understanding by people who consider the table to know that thirteen percent just doesn’t cut it. You know, you know, the good communications and keeping in touch, and in this case, there were there were different presidents who could at any time i thought when, when there was a new president, he or she could have said, you know, we’ve made some mistakes in the past, obviously i was not in charge then, but here’s what here’s, what happened and here’s what we’re gonna do, teo, and make sure that this doesn’t happen again, that humility is so crucial, especially the non-profit i can understand boisterousness from ah for-profit especially if it’s a big one, but at a non-profit there’s this extra special place that non-profits haven’t talked about that in the other book, the non-profit challenge where that humility plays a large large role or should now, just so you’ll know, since this book was published other organizations, air writing reviews and trying to talk with both me and princeton. Princeton refuses to talk about it. They give the same press release that they give that they gave after the settlement they do not want to acknowledge, but something went wrong. How they could possibly agnostic. Now i could understand them having a defense, but to say they were totally in the right, it blows my mind, you know that? Yeah, that sounds like lawyers giving advice and and driving the decisionmaking vs people who are more interested in the long term relationships with donors and alumni. That was paul volcker’s perspective. I interviewed him because he’s, a princeton alum, and he also had a perspective on this situation at the woodrow wilson school. And he was complaining about the woodrow wilson school separately and before the lawsuit ever came, so he was doing it entirely independently. And when the lawsuit came around, he told me, i think the lawyers are driving this. They’re saying, princessa can admit to nothing but i’m thinking, okay, i get that it’s not good, but i get that. But here we are, what, five years? Seven years. Six years after the settlement and they’re still saying we didn’t do anything wrong. Is bill robertson willing to talk now? Yeah, bills bill is going to be speaking with me up in boston next week. Oh, i could’ve had bill roberts instead of you. You could have a visible the name in the lawsuit instead of the guy who just follows it later on, you’re in the gundam, maybe it’s somehow it’s done now. Alright, alright, to settle for this second best. Okay? And so, as we are crafting these agreements again, the board’s role in reviewing agreements whether whether it is appropriate to buying this organization forever in perpetuity, or should we stop short of that and the board is really the last step two that can raise a red flag for the organization it is, unless you can come to some agreement as to what in perpetuity means as they did at the a museum of ma metropolitan museum of art a few years ago. And philippe de montebello said, we think in perpetuity really means seventy five years on the donor agreed to that. Well, that’s ok, that’s coming is a definition. There was a definition, right? So in perfect, what he didn’t really mean what it means in addiction, right? Fright, but yes, you’re right, i think the board has to be very cautious of that. My favorite character, we didn’t talk about her, but you dedicated the book to jessie lee washington. I did, i don’t want to, i’ll let you explain, but we just have it. We just have a couple minutes explain the crucial role just a jesse was an employee at that. The university was asked to look into endowments at the divinity school and found some irregularities and did a report, and it was put away for a while. Then she left on dh. Then the lawsuit became really big, and she said, you know this? What i was working on in the divinity school is very similar to what the lawsuit is alleging. So she came out and went to the lawyers for princeton with seth lap ido and said, i have a story to tell you, and when she got on the phone, seth said, we’ve been waiting for you to come. He didn’t know who it was going to be, but he figured there would be some other person in princeton who would be familiar with this activity that princeton was doing in the endowment accounting and she really represent she she i think, was very courageous. She put her reputation on the line and said, i am willing to go on the record to say what’s wrong here, and he dedicated the book to her, and that was so touching. And i think, well, she’s, my favorite because i believe that most people want to do the right thing and she’s a perfect example of stepping forward being courageous the way you describe most people in non-profits and donors want to do the right thing. I think you’re right. I know you’re right. Doug, wait, author, professor, advisor non-profits and philanthropists. He hangs out at columbia university teaching at the masters and fund-raising program. You will find him at doug white dot net. The book is abusing donorsearch intent. The robertson family’s epic lawsuit against princeton university it’s a very, very good story and very well told doug white. Thanks so much. Thank you, it’s. Good to see you again. Pleasure. Did you think that i was going to wrap up this show without live? Listen, love. Podcast pleasantries an affiliate affections lima, lima, lima podcast pod papa papa an alfa alfa. Certainly not certainly not can’t happen. So the liveliest naralo let’s go abroad. I like the start abroad today in ah poon a india i believe i’m not sure i’m pronouncing it right, but india is definitely with us. Germany. Guten tag. We can’t see your city, russia i’m sorry, we can’t see your city. I don’t know if i should be surprised there, but we cannot, um anybody else abroad? Yes, none, none name none in china ni hao and nobody from nobody from south korea. You know what? I bet south korea’s there, but we just can’t see them, so i’m certainly going to send on your haserot comes a ham nida to our listeners in south korea, there always there and, uh, come in a little closer to home. Coming. Georgia, georgia, i cracked again. Elizabeth, new jersey! I know elizabeth well, i don’t know this, but this is my grandmother used to work at a plant. It was a pharmaceutical plant in elizabeth going back-up a number of years. Elizabeth, new jersey live. Listen love to you also live love goes out to tampa, florida. Woodbridge, new jersey, south orange, new jersey. Why would get jersey checking in lots of places, mostly north. Let’s. Cool, though. And bayside, new york and queens live. Listen love to each of you. Thank you so much for being with us and we’ve got to send the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand listening in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to you. The affiliate affections are am and fm listeners always goes out my affections to you as well. Next week, it’s all giving tuesday, including amy sample ward. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com here’s our sponsors pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuing dot com regular sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com at plus accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dotcom are creative producers. Claire meyerhoff family woodson’s the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this music is by scott stein do with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out on the green. Thanks. 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So you got to make it fun applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for June 30, 2017: Persuading The Wealthy To Donate & Your Board’s Role In Executive Hiring

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Ashley Whillans: Persuading The Wealthy To Donate

Ashley Whillans’ research reveals the language that stimulates giving from your wealthy potential donors. She’s assistant professor at Harvard Business School.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of pem fi gis if you bullied me with the idea that you missed today’s show persuading the wealthy to donate ashley whillans research reveals the language that stimulates giving from your wealthy potential donors and your boards role in executive hiring. Jing takagi are legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group walks us through this important board responsibility hyre ing the executive officer that originally aired on july eleven twenty fourteen on tony’s take two the charleston principles we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure. Now to welcome ashley whillans to the show, she just turned her phd from the university of british columbia. She conducts research with non-profits companies and government. She was a twenty fifteen rising star of behavioral science. In twenty sixteen, she helped start the behavioral insights group. In the british columbia provincial government next month, ashley begins her faculty career as an assistant professor at the harvard business school in negotiations organizations and markets she’s at ashley whillans and i’m very glad to welcome her to non-profit radio welcome, ashley. Thank you so much for having me this morning. Pleasure. Now, there’s. A lot going on in your life. You just got your ph d just last month, right? You just graduated? Yeah. That’s. Right. Uh, something like two weeks ago. I just got my my doctorate. Congratulations, that’s. Outstanding. Because because when we started, when we started emailing your your email signature said phd candidate and now it says ashley whillans phd. Yeah. That’s right. That was the most exciting email change i made recently. Yes. Right. You got to go into preferences signatures and change. Delete the word candidate that’s. Outstanding. Yeah, great. Yeah. Now i see you are not using period’s. Most people do. Ph, period d period. You’re opting against the periods. Is there some kind of ah, that a brevity fetish you have or something? What? Why’s that no periods. Yes. Efficiency, laziness, something like that. Okay, even those two keystrokes, those two period keystrokes. It’s. Too much with the right hand. Too much. Okay. Okay, on dh now, big, big changes coming up you. So you’re you’re in british columbia that you went to university of british columbia. But now you gotta move to cambridge, right? You’re moving tomorrow? Yeah. Moving tomorrow. Uh, morning. Cambridge, massachusetts that’s. Incredible. Um, good luck in the move. Are you are you a canadian originally? Your canadian citizen? I am a canadian. Okay. All right. Now, aren’t you at all concerned about our muslim ban? I know ashley willens. So that’s a suspicious sounding name to me. Is that a muslim? Ashley whillans is that a muslim name? Sounds sounds muslim. No, i i don’t have to worry about it, but i know it is an issue for some of my my friends. So this’s america shortly? Okay, you’re you’re friends, right? It’s affects a lot of people’s friends and that you know where the where the democracy, where everyone is under suspicion. So i did see your head shot and i did not see ah, hey, job on your head shot. So may i hope you’ll get through scrutiny. I don’t know what we’re looking at canadian citizens, how scrupulous were being. I hope you have no trouble coming in. Let’s, get to the substance of sort of self concept and and giving, let me ask, let me start. A lot of people think the wealthy are selfish. Is that so? So i would definitely hesitate against that general idea related to the research that i did. I think it’s, so i think that that wealthy individuals have a lot of personal control and so it’s not that wealthier individuals, on average or selfish, but rather that they and are used to and enjoy having autonomy or personal control over decisions in their daily life. Yeah, that autonomy then and an agency we’re going, we’re going to get to. There was a really interesting study in twenty fifteen of preschoolers, which is related to the work that you did and we’re going to talk about, can you? Can you summarize that for us? That twenty fifteen preschoolers research? Um so i think broadly, this wasn’t my research was that the preschool fighting is that kids from wealthier families actually give less tokens during an economic game in the lab than been children from less wealthy background, so they decide to keep more tokens for themselves, even when the tokens they’re going to go to other children who who couldn’t be there to participate in the study because they were at sick in half because they’re sick in the hospital, right? This study is just one example of many that are sort of proliferating in the social sciences, suggesting that, um, people from wealthier backgrounds tends to give less when one provided with the opportunity, right? And your research finds the way teo overcome what? What? Maybe? Well, it’s, your research points out that it’s really not something innate, but it’s the messaging coming from the charities that is a variable factor that can influence the giving of the wealthy and the less affluent, too. Yes, that’s right. So, really, what our research fight is that the and this is this isn’t necessarily surprising so fund-raising professional, they’re like, of course, you should table your message to your audience, but i think what’s, really. So what we find is that he’s more agenda messages, messages that focus on personal achievement and control are more effective it encouraging giving among those with the greatest capacity or messages that focus on what we can all do together to help the cause are more effective for those with the less capacity give but across our studies of more than thousand working adults from both chicago in vancouver, we don’t find any inherent differences in our studies between those with most the most money in our samples in those with please okay, samples so we don’t see a main effect where people who are wealthy orc are giving much less, and people have less money or giving maurine the content of the earth studies. But rather we find that depending on how the message is frame’s related to charitable giving, the wealthy give more or the left latto give more. Okay, now that sound very it sounds like you’ve said that those few paragraphs a bunch of times in the past couple months or so nastad sounded very, very polished and finished. Have you repeated those words a few times? No, not too much, not too much, but i have thought about this research a lot over the last three years. Yeah, okay. All right, well, it’s there’s a lot there. We’re gonna unpack it, but, um, yeah, i like the bottom line is that it’s not only about the wealthy and it the tailoring a lot of times fundraisers or anybody and non-profit they talk about tailoring a message? They mean used the person’s first name or, you know, address them personally or address them by ah, bye program that they’re interested in or certainly maybe e-giving level where, you know, but we’re we’re talking about cutting it. A different way. Which would be bye affluence. Do i have that on my perverting? Your researcher of kapin basically absolutely right. Okay, okay. We’re gonna go out for our first break. Thank you for telling me. I did not pervert your research. I don’t want to do that. We’re gonna go out for a first for our break. And when we come back, you and i will continue talking about persuading the wealthy and others to donate using the right messaging. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. Ashley whillans recent phd. We’re talking about her research on messaging and e-giving ah, the different levels of of affluence. Actually, you did this with riel charities. Is that that’s what i gather, right? Yes. That’s, right. So we conducted the research with an organization that focuses on effective plan to be the life you can save on. We’ve also done this with a large private university in the united states. Okay, i guess you’re not at liberty to say the the name of the university is that? Does that part of the agreement? That’s, right? Yeah. Kapin nondisclosure agreement. Okay, now we know that you’re headed to harvard business school, but, you know, that’s just may just be a coincidence. Oh, by the way, what? It wasn’t there, it wasn’t. It wasn’t there. Okay, but where were you going to be? Teaching? I mean, you know, it’s like getting your syllabus together right for your first. Are you going to teaching in the fall? I’m teaching in the second semester, so i’ll be teaching negotiations. I take the class first and then i teach in the second. Semester they make a making a new professor. Sit through the class, see that you understand how the class goes and you get a feel for what the classroom is like. Oh, man, and you get paid for that. You’re on salary while you’re doing that? Yes, falik okay, well, of course you have other responsibilities as well. You’re not just going to one, you know, just taking one class. And they i’ve been sitting on the quad for the they don’t let me off that easy. Okay? Cool. No, it’s. Very good for you. All right. So a charity without a canadian charity, the charity is in the united states. They’re both the both the college and the charity work in the united states. Ok, ok. Was that hard? Is that hard? Teo recruit charities too. Let you mess with their messaging? Yeah, that’s a great question. It definitely took a little bit of collecting initial evidence on the idea first. And i’m also part of the society for philanthropy initiative out of the university of chicago. So it’s run by john list and other economists who are centered at the university of chicago and there’s a conference every year that brings together fund-raising professionals, professionals, leading academics in economics, sociology and psychology. Two begin to think about and talk about using the insights from our fields and put them into practice. So that was a great source of connections for us when we went and tried to find field partners for our research professor john list in chicago, i think he’s been on this show, i’m pretty sure he has i’m i’m gonna go to tony martignetti dot com and search his name, but i’m pretty sure john list has been on. Yeah, that’s great, yeah, he’s a major he’s, one of the leading academic academics in the field of fund-raising so he really started the academic field of philanthropic studies and fund-raising looking at from a behavioral science perspective, his career really took off after he was on non-profit radio. So this is very auspicious for you. I don’t know if you know that this is a watershed, this watershed for you. I don’t know if you’re aware of that. Great, great. Now i have been. But now you are here. Yes, you know, gen shang. Do you know professor gen shang? I don’t know, you know. You’re not well connected, all right? We’ll have to connect you in the university environment. She’s another professor. Now it, uh i think she’s now at cambridge. The other cambridge? Not the not the knockoff. Cambridge. You’re moving to she’s. The original cambridge, i think. Pretty sure. Okay, so all right, so you recruited your charities and then what’s the next step? Yeah. What was next after that? Oh, you got a what we had a discussion about. You know what? Campaigns were upcoming that we might be able to do. Random i control trials. So that’s, where we’ve flip a coin essentially on dh randomly find everyone who’s going to receive a mail out to receive one of the treatments or the other treatment. Andi, that was actually done all by the university alumni office. So they were able to select one set of messages for the group that we randomly assigned in another set of messages for this other group. And then we were able to put these messages into the field and look at donation rates, both participation rates, so likelihood of donating to the campaign. And also the amount that people donated to the campaign. Okay. On dh it took about i think it was in the field for so we were waiting for the results for three or four months on dh. Then we were able to look at whether and how different messages affected different potential donors differently, and the charities had wealth, information or income information about the people who receive these melons right in our field study with the university office we hey, we did a little bit of guessing and well, so we didn’t have individual level wealth data, but we did have a zip code data. We were able to get the average level of well in the neighborhood that individual’s lives. We also knew how much they donated in previous campaigns, which is a pretty good indicator of wealth of someone who gives six, seven, eight thousand dollars to their university alumni office is probably a lot someone who’s wealthier than then another individual who’s giving five, ten, fifty hundred dollars over the last couple of campaigns. So we only that is an index of well, all right. That’s a good that’s. A good proxy. Ah, especially if it’s over over a period. Ah, good period of years or so that’s true. And you used ninety thousand dollars as the cut off between affluent and less affluent, right? So where we got that number is actually so those were from our more tightly controlled experiments in the field where we i went up to adults at different finds museums in vancouver and chicago. And we asked him to participate in a study who provided them with a windfall of money and prevented the opportunity. Donate either in terms of agency or communion is we’ve been kind of talking about and we measure their individual loss. Okay, so that was different. That was different. Fields, scratch that off. Actually, just emerged from our data. So wave randomly assigned everyone in our sample to see either these more achievement focused or these more community focused messages. And then we ran additional analyses looking at you know what? At what point that these messages focused on achievement really seem to be working on. We found that message is focused on achievement. Really seemed to start working at promoting giving around this ninety thousand dollar mark. So that’s, that point actually emerged from the studies that we were conducting. Okay, okay, so that so that was a different set of field research, the the ninety thousand dollar affluent level that was from the university or the or the or the charity mailing? Okay. Okay, well, by the way, what’s, your what’s, your windfall payment to participate in the research at the at the museum’s. What do you what researchers consider a windfall? Yeah. So when paul is money that you didn’t expect to get way, provided all of our participants with a ten dollar when thawed the beginning of the study. But we there’s a couple of things that we do to help people ten dollars that’s a winner money, ten dollars. A windfall. I don’t really like twenty, five hundred or five thousand or something, man. They’re underfunded, you’re badly underfunded payment. You could go for lunch or something or have a coffee. So what we actually do, though, is way. Tell people that’s their payment for participating in our study, and we put it in a foryou envelope on we tell participants to put that payment of money away. So those couple of small, small thing telling them it’s their payment for their effort in our studies and telling them to put it away and just sign for it how people on our studies feel a sense of ownership over the payment because we know that if so, then we can feel a little bit more confident, but the results will generalize to the real world because people are treating that more like their money and left life, you know, something that’s like a payment that belongs to the researchers as opposed to them. You people are pretty tricky like you. You’re really trying to pull the wool over our eyes if we’re if we’re a subject subject, yeah, it helps. It helps us feel more confident in our results if i didn’t and here’s some of our experiments all money, you know, can you make a decision with it? People are going to make a different decision then, if they feel like i’m now asking them tio part with some of the money that they’ve earned in our study, i see very wily ofyou, behavioral scientists. All right. Are you familiar at all with the research of ah, do you know the name’s, sara kiesler and lee sproule? No. Okay, old social scientists from when i went to college. But i thought you might have come across there. They were behavioral social scientists also. But i won’t dwell on there. There, the forefathers, for four founders, foremothers of your of your research, but it’s not important, okay. Okay, so all right, enough of the detail. Now what? Uh, what emerged from the the different messages flush it out for us. So what we found was that messages that focused on achievement encourage generosity among those with the greatest capacity to give so above that ninety thousand threshold that we’re talking about where’s messages focused on community. But we can all do together to help the cause, encourage generosity among those with the least amount of money in our samples. And this was true, as i said before, both when we measured individual level wealth and when participants knew they were in a study. And these findings also emerge when we conducted this research in the field with the university fund-raising office and people didn’t know that they were in a study. So we also thought that these messages focus on achievement promoted e-giving for individuals who were graduates of an elite business school in the united states um, and then that study it increased the amount that that individuals gave in the study. Now what you refer to as the communion message, by the way that’s interesting tries to work communion, huh? Why’d you choose communion instead? Of community. So this is just really a kind of jargon. Ease social. See there’s the trouble right there. Yeah. Jargon. We have jargon jail on a non-profit radio. It was the first problem, right? There’s the problem right there. Okay. Okay. So community is one way you can think about it. That’s totally fine if it’s with a lot of research and our field showing that people from different cultural backgrounds tend to think about their relationship with others in different ways. So in north american cultural context, we tend to be more gentle. We focus on this self as really standing out. Where is in more collectivist culture, such as in east asia? We focus more on fitting in, and our relationships with others are really important. Recently in the social sciences, people have started to draw parallels between these different cultural mindset and the mindset that are so secret with having more or less money. So i used the word agency and communion tow link this broader literature. But really, you can think about this in terms of agency or community that wealthier individuals tend to be more singularly focused and really wanting to stand out. We’re lost wealthy individuals tend, on average to be more focused to their community, so they tend to want to fit in with those around them. You have the gift of of ah, complete explanation and appropriate qualification, which will serve you well as a professor. A ll the professors i’ve interviewed, including john list have those gift detail and qualification were required. I know if you know that, but you’ve. You’ve acquired it through your three year study. Congratulations. All right. So so the message is that you used for the the communion. The message was let’s. Save a life together. That’s one example. Right? And then the for the individual achievement of the agency message he used you equals life saver. Those are those are a couple of examples of messages. Yeah, yes. Okay. And those would have gone out in direct mail is that is that right? There will be mail pieces. So in our initial studies, we had people in our studies read those appeals in the context of an actual experiments. And in the university fund-raising study, those messages went out in direct mail. So those messages were at the very top of what people saw. And at the very bottom, right before they made or messages like that break before they made their donation decision. Okay, okay. So, really, you know, a zeiss ed? The research applies to the affluent as well as the non affluent or less up. However you want to describe it, you want your messaging to be appropriate, and we’re introducing sort of a new variable. I think that or at least one that i have not scene which is messaging by wealth level here. Yes, that’s. Right. So i research really does show that thinking about or knowing something about the socioeconomic status or background of potential donors, i can provide one clue about the types of messages or appeals that might be more effective for for a different different groups. And again, this really fits with what we know in psychology about how well shapes the way we think about ourselves. So we know again, that’s the kind of reiterate we know that lower income individuals on average and we’re always talking about general, is to think about the world in a way that’s, more relational. How can i fit in with my community? How can i make a difference fight by being part of my group where hyre social status hyre hyre more wealthy individuals tend to think about right standing out from the crowd and how they can show their uniqueness or economy in their lives. So i think, knowing just a little bit about how well shapes the way people think about themselves is an important clue as to how we might want to frame charitable giving or messages of round fund-raising to encourage e-giving among both groups, andi, i also think that it’s important, so i think i mean, again, the idea of tailoring messages isn’t new, but i do think that this a gent iq framing this sort of focus on personal achievement or self, you know, control sort of seems teo conflict with the way that we think about charitable giving as something that together we all help an important cause. And so i think it’s important to another kind of important message embedded in this work, but sometimes we need to step beyond encouraging people to do things that have positive outcomes, like give charity or healthy for positive reasons, and instead focus on encouraging people to do positive behavior for reasons. That fit with their pre existing values on goals. I don’t know if it was your new york times op ed with your with your co researchers or was one of the pieces i read, you know, your insight could see you’re concerned about being contrary to the morality of charitable giving and that concept of community, but but i understand your concern, but we can we can help the community by tailoring the message appropriately, the way the way you’re describing, um i wanted to ask where we just have about two minutes left. Ashley so where now is your your research going to be heading? Is there going to be more in the in the fund-raising realm? Lorts yes, so i’m starting a major project now, looking at how we can encourage e-giving early on, so how can we encourage mindsets, associate with generosity and giving for kids? And what and what also our conversations? How did conversations between children and parents shape not on ly the way that kids think about the importance of giving but also shaped parents own behavior, so we want often and still in our children the important values that we care about. And we want to know how conversations about e-giving not only affect the way that children prissy e-giving but also affect care and some behavior, but they’re looking to their kids, they’re trying to instill important values to their families and in that could be reminded about the importance of philanthropy, and this interest really came out of a lot of research we did that didn’t work, trying to change people’s minds about giving or the importance of thinking about contributing back to the community, sort of later on in length that we were serving high net worth donors, individuals with hyre levels of wealth, and we found that some wealthy individuals who are more generous tend to think about their success is being drive from the situation from help from others on dh that that seemed to be powerful component on what afflict e-giving but when we tried to take that insight into the field and leverage it to encourage charitable giving were large and successful, one important question then becomes, how can we encourage this? You know, more communal mind set more community focused way of thinking early on before people become financially successful or go through education. And so have become really interested in my collaborators, and i have become really interested in serious about the rule of conversations, the powerful role of conversations, about e-giving early on, both for kids and for parents. And so those are some of the ideas that i’m going to be blurring of the next several years. Alright, excellent good explained like a true professor on, but i hope you just hope you’re not going to rob our children of their youth. We’re not gonna we’re not gonna do it let’s not go to that extent when as you as you in this children for your research work errantly designing about e-giving game. Okay e fine. And also i’m alright. Parents need not be worried toe have their children participate. All right, we have to leave it there. Actually, whillans congratulations on your new phd. You can. You can follow ashley at ashley whillans. Thank you so much for sharing and being a part of non-profit radio. Actually, thanks so much. And congratulations. Thank you so much for having me. Real pleasure. All right, take care. Your board’s role in executive hiring with jean takagi is coming up first. Pursuant, they’re infographic it is five steps to win at data driven fund-raising this infographic would probably be the on the other end of the spectrum from the type of research that we were just talking about with ashley, because this is going this distill things in, you know, five simple steps, which is not what academic research is, but while still valuable all data driven because, you know, pursuing tell you every week data driven they have, they have this infographic that will help you define your goal and what the most important metrics are and optimizing and tuning fine tuning for best results, learning through infographic, you can learn from academic research you can learn through in infographic because you are a you’re a lifetime lerner, and you’re a flexible learner, so don’t ignore the ends of the spectrum and the infographic and the peer reviewed academic research from the folks at pursuing dot com. You go there and then you click resource is then info graphics. We’ll be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. You need more money for your good work. I know you do throw a spelling bee. Anybody can throw a party generic party well, maybe not. Anybody? I mean, i’ve been to some bad parties, but most anybody could throw a decent party but a spelling bee party that takes it to the next level with live music and dancing that’s a that’s, a true party and fund-raising, of course, for your because your your mission, your good work. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com, then talk to the ceo it’s that simple. Alex greer now tony steak too. The charleston principles. My video is from charlotte, but the principles are from charleston, and i decided that they share enough common letters. First five teo to do a video inspired by charleston even though i was in charlotte and charlotte, north carolina, nicer town. I’ve been there many overnights and there when i shot the video and i’ve never been to charleston, but i can tell from the pictures charlotte’s nicer, i couldjust north carolina, i can see that i see from the pictures the charleston principles there’s a love that has nothing to do with you should’ve fast forward it best that all right, here’s, what we’re talking about charleston principles right now, it’s all about charity registration the state you know where you got to be properly registered need state where you solicit donations. All that charleston principles have some very good ideas and definitions of solicitation problem is it’s hard to tell which states have adopted them of largely, but i can help you. Check out the video at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two now. It’s. Time for jean takagi on your boards role in executive hiring jean takagi he’s with us. You know him? He’s, the managing editor, attorney at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the very popular non-profit law block dot com on twitter he’s at g tak g ta ke jin takagi welcome back, alt-right onen congratulations on one ninety nine. I’m looking forward to two hundred next week. Cool. Yes. I’m glad you’re gonna be calling in for with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, it’s. Very exciting. Really? One hundred ninety nine shows ago. It’s one hundred ninety nine weeks it’s it’s. Remarkable. We’re talking this week about the board’s role in hiring the executive. And i’ve i understand that there are a lot of executives in transition, i think. So tony and it looks like some surveys have confirmed that it’s certainly been an experience with some of my clients and even on boards i’ve sat on over the last couple years, and there’s, a great group called compass point out in san francisco there, nationally known as one of the most respected non-profit support centers and together with blue avocado, a non-profit online publication, they have a national survey on leadership succession in transition going on just right now. The last time they published the results was in two thousand eleven, and they found that sixty seven percent of current executive anticipated leaving within five years and ten percent. We’re currently actively looking to leave right then, and in two thousand eleven, the economic times weren’t so were so great, so sixty seven percent anticipating leaving within five years that’s a pretty staggering number. So now we’re already three years into that survey into that five year projection. Yeah, and sixty seven percent of two thirds. So if we had held this show off until two thousand sixteen, then it would have been moved. But there’s a new one coming out, you said, yeah, well, they’re they’re just starting the survey online now so you can participate on that. I don’t know the website, but if you, you know google non-profit transition survey executive transition survey, thank you, you’ll get that okay, and its compass point it’s a compass point and blew up a goddamn kottler who you’ve. You’ve mentioned blue vaccaro before i know. All right, so, yeah, two thirds of of ceos were expecting to be in transition within five years and where we’re only three years into it now. So the presumably these people are still looking. What? But boards don’t really spend enough time preparing for this kind of succession, do they? Well, you know, in many cases they don’t, and sometimes, you know, they might stay, they don’t get the chance because their executive director comes up to him and give him two weeks notice. And now, you know, the board may be used to meeting every month or every other month or even every third month, and now all of a sudden they’ve gotta ramp up their efforts and find an executive to come in in two weeks. That’s going to be really tough to do on dh, you know, again, if we say at any given time, two thirds of the non-profit executives are looking to leave their job, you know, it’s very likely that within your board term, you know, you may have an executive transition to manage, and sometimes with very little notice. So that’s that’s? Why? I think succession planning is just really a core duty of non-profit board. Well, how do we let them get away with this two week notice? I mean, the ones i typically see are, you know, the person will stay on until a successor. Is found you that’s, not your experience. Well, you know, you’re really lucky if you if you do get that situation, i think most non-profit executives are hired on at will basis. Meaning that there’s, not a contract to stay there for a given number of years. Either party can conception, rate or terminate the employment relationship at any time. And as the average, you know, employee may give two weeks notice to go on to another job there. Many executives who feel the same way that they, you know, they may feel like they own allegiance to an organization. But another opportunity comes up and it’s not going to be held for them forever. And they may want to move on. Um, and they may feel like what they gave the board really advanced notice that they might be looking for something that they might get terminated. So they may keep that information from the board until the last two weeks. Well, because all right, so that i am way in the dark because i would. I just presumed that executive directors, ceos even if small and midsize shops were not at will. But they were but that they were contract i mean, when i was a lonely back in my days of wage slavery, director of planned e-giving i was in at will employees, which means you can end it like you said, you could end at any time and so can they like, if they don’t like the color of your tie one day they can fire you, you’re at will. But but that that’s typical for for ceos and executive directors. Yeah, i think for smaller non-profits it’s very, very common. Oh, i just always assumed that these were contract positions with termination clause is and no, okay, but, i mean, you know, it’s, your practice, i’m not i’m not disagreeing with you, i’m just saying i’m okay, i’m learning something s o that’s that’s incredibly risky. So it is. It put you in that position of saying, well, i need to replace somebody immediately and i don’t you know, as a board we don’t meet very often can we even convene within the two weeks to start the process going? It’s going to be so much better if you had a plan of what happens in case you know, our executive every doesn’t give two weeks notice, and even if the executive says, you know, in your scenario, maybe a longer notice, maybe, you know, in six months, if they do have a contract at the end of my contract, i don’t plan to renew, you know, i think we should go through the process of looking for for a successor and having a plan or thinking about that plan that have just coming up with something on the fly is going to probably result in a much better choice for selection of a leader in the future and that’s going to be critical and how well the organisation operates and how the beneficiaries of your organization are going to do are they going to get the benefits of a strong organization, or are they going to suffer because the organization can’t do it? You can’t advance to commission as well as it should? No, i mean, you’re you’re calling it on the fly. I would say two weeks notice for an executive director, departing is a crisis, even four weeks notice. Yeah, in many cases, you’re absolutely right. Okay, i’m right about something. Thank you. You’ve got something right today. All right. So, um what do we what do we do, teo, to plan for this? Well, you know, i think the first thing the board has to do is start toe think about the contingencies. So what do we do and and actually want one thought that comes to mind that, uh, that you raised tony is should we get our executive director on an employment contract? If they are and that will employee do we want to walk it in? And they’re sort of pros and cons with that? If you’ve got, like, not the best executive director in the world, terminating somebody on a contract becomes much, much more difficult than if they were at will employees. So, you know, you kind of have to weigh the pros and cons, but, you know, revisiting your current executive director and the employment relationship is maybe step one, and suddenly he was thinking about, well, do you have a really strong job description that really reflects what the board wants of the executive director and the basis on which the board is reviewing the executives performance? And maybe the sort of initial question to ask in that area is do you actually review? The executive director and that the board you absolutely should. You and i have talked about that the board’s is not part of their fiduciary duty to evaluate the performance of the the ceo? Yeah, i think so. I think it’s a core part of meeting their fiduciary duties that really, you know, as a board, if you meet once a month or once every couple of months or whatever. What’s more important, you know, then really selecting the individual who’s going to lead the organization in advancing its mission and its values, and implementing your plans and policies and making sure the organization complies with the law. Taking your leader is probably the most important task that the board has, because the board is delegating management to the to that leader. Yeah, absolutely. And i think it’s often forgot naralo overlooked that individual board members inherently have no power and no authority to do anything so it’s only a group when they meet collectively, can they take aboard action? So for individuals to exercise, you know, powers on behalf of the organization that has to be delegated to them and typically the person responsible for everything is that ceo or the executive director. We’re gonna go out for a break, gene. And when we come back, you now keep talking about the process. The what? What goes into this process, including the job offer. So everybody stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets too. He finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Time. Dana ostomel, ceo of deposit, a gift. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Got to send live listener love let’s. Start in japan with tokyo kiss or a zoo and nagoya. Konnichiwa, seoul, south korea, seoul, some someone south korea, always checking in love that anya haserot. Moscow, russia, mexico city, mexico, ireland. We can’t see your city ireland’s being masked for some reason, but we know you’re there. Welcome, welcome, ireland, and also taipei, taiwan. Ni hao, nobody from china, that’s, funny, nobody from china today, coming back to the u s we got cummings, georgia, in ashburn, virginia. Live listener love to you in georgia and virginia. Okay, gene. So now we’ve let’s say, we’ve learned that our exec is departing and let’s not make it a crisis situation, though let’s say this person is generous enough to give six months notice. So, you know, let’s, not make it a crisis. Where what’s our what’s, our what’s, our first step as the board. Terrific. And i’ll just add, even if you don’t, if you know your executive is not leaving any time soon and i think you should go ahead and start this process anyway. Oh, yeah, clearly we should be. We should have a succession plan in place. Yes, we’ve talked about it, right? Okay, yes, i think the first thing to do is get a committee together so it might include boardmember some outside experts outside with the board. If you don’t have that internal expertise and just getting different perspectives out there, some of your other stakeholders might be really important in what? You know what you want to look for in an executive in the future. So get that committee together first. Get the buy-in of the current executive director bonem so unless it’s going to be, you know, a succession plan for a termination? Yeah, we’re really unhappy with executive director, right? Let’s not get into that. Yeah, let’s get their buy-in and have them help in the process. Especially with your scenario where they’re giving us six months notice and everything is amicable. Let’s, you know, see she who knows better about the organization than the executive director that’s in place right now. So i’m getting there buy-in and help and contribution. I think it is pivotal. Does this committee have to be comprised of hr experts? Why? I think having a least one or two hr experts is going to be really helpful. But i i think it’s more than that. It’s, you need to program people who understand what the executive you know roll is with respect to advancing the program. You need the fund-raising people to know well, what is the going to do with respect to fund-raising perhaps the seeds, the lead fundraiser and some small organizations as well. So we need thio gather a bunch of different people with different perspectives and expertise to figure this out. And i think that’s a very good point to include a t least a programme expert. Now, could this committee include employees, or does it have to be sure you can i absolutely on dh, you know, you might even have have have different subcommittees in there. So eventually this is going to go up to the board. But as the the committee is doing the legwork for determining what you need an executive director and putting together a job description and, you know, perhaps, but the performance evaluation is going to be based on for the future executive director all those things can get, you know, be be aided by the contribution from several areas. Okay, okay, what are your thoughts on hiring a recruiter vs vs? Not well, you know, i think it depends upon what the organization’s resource is our and the organization should understand the marketplaces in a swell hiring two great executive director is the competitive thing, so, you know, if you’ve got a lot of resources and you’re able to you want to allocate an appropriate amount of resource is tio what i think again is making one of your most important decisions of the board? I don’t think you want to do this on the cheap at all. I’m just the same way i didn’t want you to do it on the fly or or or are in a rush matter-ness think you want to invest in this and you don’t have great expertise inside about things, about like, doing job interviews and doing background checks. On the sex thing, you know how to differentiate between one candidate and another when they all look good on paper and when they’re maybe professional interviewees, but they’re not. There may be not great leaders. How do you figure all those things that if you don’t know that on executive search firm could be a great help and it can just open up the marketplace of potential candidates as well? Especially if they, you know, decide to do a regional or even a national search, it really can ramp up hu hu you’re going see in front of you and the quality of the candidates that this election comedian the board eventually will have to choose from. Okay, does the committee now come up with a couple of candidates to bring to the board? Or is it better for the committee to choose one and bring that person to the board? How does this work? You know, i think the committee should be tasked with bringing several candidates up on sometimes it may be a multi tiered process so they might go through two rounds of screening, for example, and and at least let the board see who’s made. The first cut, and then and then, you know, present to the board, the final, perhaps two or three candidates. If you’ve got, you know, ones that are very close and in quality in terms of what the board want in an executive director, i think that’s pivotal. I wanted to add one thing, though. I’ve seen this done before, tony and i don’t really like it and that’s when. If a search committee or search consultant comes up and says, you know, to the board, tell me what you want in a good executive director, everybody you know, spend five minutes, write it down and send it to me, or you take it home and email it to me and tell me what you want. And then the search consultant collates the the the answers and then that’s, you know, the decision about that’s what’s going to be the qualities you’re going to look for. I think this needs a lot of discussion and deliberation and the value of, you know that that thought process and that really difficult thinking and getting all those generative questions out there is going to produce a much better product in terms of what you’re looking for and who you can get and how you’re going to do it. Yeah, you you send this tio use email and, you know, it’s going to get the typical attention that an e mail gets, like a minute or something, you know, it’s it’s going to get short shrift. And your point is that this is critical. It’s it’s, the leader of your organization you want do you want the contributions of the committee to be done in, like, a minute off the top of their head just so they can get the email out there in box? Yeah, definitely. We could talk about board meetings and another show, but put this at the front of the meeting and spend, you know, seventy five percent of your time talking about this. This is really, really important, okay, you have some thoughts about compensation, and we just have a couple minutes left. So let’s let’s say we’ve the board has well, i can’t jump there yet. Who should make the final call among these candidates? Is it the board? Yeah, i think it should be the board that makes the final approval, but they they’re going to put a lot of weight based on what the executive of the search committee, you know, tell them who they’re you know, the recommendation is okay, and i think that toe add one more thing to it is make sure the organization looks good to clean up your paperwork and your programming and even your facilities. Just make sure you’re going to be attractive to the candidate as well, because if you want to attract the best, you better be looking your best as well. Okay, okay. And the with respect to compensation now, we’ve talked about this before. What? What’s excessive. And there should be calms and things like that, right? So it’s really important to make sure that the board or unauthorized board committee one that composed just board members, approved the compensation before it’s offered to the candidate. Even if you don’t know that they’re going accepted or not, once he offers out there that compensation package, total compensation should have been approved by the board. And you want to do it with using the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness procedures unless you know its far below market value. Okay, if you get payed accessibly or if you pay somebody excessively, there could be penalty taxes for everybody. Including the board. Should be careful of that. We have talked about that rebuttable presumption before. Yeah. All right, jean, we have to leave that there. I look forward to talking to you next week on the two hundredth great. Congratulations again. And i look forward to it as well. Thank you, gene. Gene takagi, managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group, his blog’s non-profit law block dot com, and on twitter. He is at g tak next week. Social change. Anytime, everywhere, part one with our social media contributor, amy sample ward. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com creative producer is clear. Myer half family bullets is the line producer durney mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.