And welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d come down with nephromegaly. If I had to pass the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to give you the highlights. Hey Tony, we have another conversation with Art Taylor. The CEO of the Association of Fundraising Professionals returns to share his thinking on the GoFundMe chaotic week in October, addressing the decline in families who donate to nonprofits and our community’s perception and messaging challenges. It’s an open, honest conversation with this leader of the nonprofit sector. On Tony’s take too. Thank you, Sarkiy’s Foundation. Here is another conversation with Art Taylor. It’s a pleasure to welcome back Herman Art Taylor. He’s president and CEO of AFP Global, the leading association for fundraising professionals worldwide. Prior, he had a 24 year tenure as president and CEO of the Better Business Bureau Wise Giving Alliance. AFP is at AFPglobal.org. And you’ll find Art Taylor on LinkedIn. Welcome back, Art. I mean, abdominal. I gotta look that word up. How do you spell H A B H E B E B D O M O M I N A L I D A L I. H E B D O M I D A L I D A L. Wow, abdominal. Oh, weekly used especially of organizations that meet weekly. Got it. Abdominal. Wow, OK. Weekly. I feel like any schmo could say it’s your your favorite weekly podcast. Only Tony nonprofit radio is gonna call it your favorite abdominal podcast, man, that is a new word for me. I have to I have to use that somewhere. I have to figure out where I wanna use that abdominal. It sounds like a hernia. I don’t use it anywhere but here. I’ve never used it. I don’t think I’ve ever used it anywhere else. I don’t have abdominal meetings with clients. I just have weekly meetings. But here, uh, it, it works. It’s good to see you again. Good to talk to you. Thank you for coming back and sharing some thoughts. Um, I, I, I feel like this is only a couple of weeks old. Uh, I have to ask you about the The GoFundMe chaotic week uh uh uh in uh in October, uh, you were, you were, uh, hearing feedback, let’s put it benignly, hearing feedback from, uh, from members. You were engaged with GoFundMe. What, what, what can you share? Well, I can say there was a lot of heat around the issue for sure, you know. There was some abdominal heat going on, you know, it only lasted one abdominal period. It was a abdominal period, which I think is about right. I mean, from a timing standpoint. Um, clearly, there were some things that they did completely wrong. You know, I mean, Yeah, I think the, and, well, let me start with this. You can’t take someone’s brand. And put it up there without their permission. You also, it’s also not advisable. To, um, not communicate more broadly with the nonprofit sector before you release something like this. Because you might have been advised to do it differently, right? It’s also important to be clear about what’s gonna happen to the data long before, you know, it goes out. So, And there are other issues too. So there was no shortage of Justifiable criticism. None. And so I heard, I heard that from some of our members. There were also many of our members. Just being honest, who probably never knew anything about it. And just were going on about their business. But there was some vocal criticism and loud criticism. And so I felt like I need to just go and talk to them and see what’s going on with this thing. So I did. I reached out to The folk there that I have contacts with. And essentially said, are you aware that what you’re doing is a bit of a challenge? And, and they were. In agreement by that time, right? They understood that what they did was Not helpful. In fact, it was more harmful for them. Because It may have foreclosed an opportunity to do something really valuable. For nonprofit organizations through their platform. And what do I mean by that? GoFundMe gets over a million daily transactions. On their platform. And so What a great opportunity it could have been. For some nonprofits to benefit from that traffic, right? To get people who May not have known anything about some of those organizations. But found out about them through there. Transaction on GoFundMe. And What a great opportunity it could have been. For those nonprofits to receive data about those individuals. Who gave that money, which is something that you don’t get on many platforms today. But they could have gotten data about who the donor was. So that that organization could then go out and establish a relationship with that individual outside of GoFundMe. A tremendous missed opportunity, I think in that regard. But in talking with them, they understood and they took it down, which was the sensible and only thing they really could do. We’ll take it down. We will in the future, try to work with leaders to figure out what the appropriate um. Posture should be what what type of product we might offer that can do some of that. And so, you know, that’s kind of the right result. I think if, if they can work with. Some of the organizations to see what the right approach from an ethical and um Operational approach is, that’s fair to nonprofits, that maybe gives them the ability to, to earn enough to keep the platform going. I think that’s a win, because Tony, we need the innovation. Yeah, I’ve said this many times. We have seen our donor base decline. By multiples over the last 20 years. I mean, if you go back to 2000. We were at 66% of families giving to nonprofits. And the latest information we have from the fundraising effectiveness project, of which AFP Foundation is part of a partner on. We’re somewhere down to 41.5% of families today. And so if you look out another 20 years, there may not be anybody given to it now I’m, I’m obviously hyperbole, but that’s that’s a from from 2/3 to well under a half. Yeah, so I understand, listen, I understand the outrage. I understand how organizations were really upset by what happened and GoFundMe deserve that criticism. But I think we got to find ways to work better with them and others. On finding opportunities for us to get everyday donors back in a given game. Because we can’t thrive as a society. With less than a third of the people given the nonprofits. So that’s my thing. I think it was a moment for us to really take a deep breath and say, oh. Yeah, we should be disappointed by how this happened. But then ask ourselves, is there anything else like this that can generate that potential kind of attention for nonprofit giving? And if not, how do we work with it so that we can put it in a place where it can be viable and useful for all of us and I know everybody won’t agree with that. I mean, some people are like, let’s just cancel it. GoFundMe, go, go, they want to go go somewhere else. No, that’s what I’m just saying from my perspective, I’m more into let’s figure out how we can make this work for nonprofits. And so that’s, that’s the uh the approach I would take to it. I was one of the critics on LinkedIn. Uh, there was, there was a lot of activity there. Um, and, and I agree with a, with a site that gets a million transactions a day. We just, we wanted them to have done it more collaboratively, smarter, you know, you’re acknowledging they did things wrong and and they do too. Yeah, in hindsight, right, in hindsight. And it ended up, you know, it was, it was part of a, uh, uh, it became a moment, I think also because of the culture, just what the nonprofit community is suffering under the, the, the Trump, the regime or administration, however you picture it, um, you know, the community’s been, been battered badly in terms of money and reputation. So there’s only so much battering uh uh a community can take until it reacts, uh, strongly, um, so they, you know, yeah, uh, and I agree with, I, I certainly don’t agree with just like cancel GoFundMe like don’t, don’t deal with them on a nonprofit level. I, I don’t run a nonprofit, but if I did, I, I wouldn’t cancel them, um. I would look to, you know, how can we leverage a million transactions a day? Is there anything in there that, that we could, we could benefit from? I, you know, but we wanted it to have been done, uh, collaboratively and it felt like it was foisted. Uh, you know, badly. I wanna say comment on one other thing you said about the culture right now, right? And Something really good happened to me that week, by the way. I received the Independent sectors John Gardner Leadership Award. Which is a big effing deal. It’s, it’s a big deal. It’s, it’s like. I don’t know if I, I could ever get an award more prestigious than that for what I’ve done throughout my career. So it was really great to be recognized that way. So, um, one of the things they do when you get this award is they give you a few minutes to talk about something on your mind, and I used it to talk about what we see as a decline in trust in institutions. Because I feel that that is also part of what’s happening here and, and maybe what. So many of us were concerned about with the GoFundMe thing. And what I said was. Um, even when we were at the Wise Giving Alliance, we noticed that there was this thing called the trust gap. Every year, Wise Giving Alliance does a study called the Donor Trust Report. And we measure the, the disparity between the percentage of people who feel that they feel like they need to trust highly or somewhat a charity before giving. And we compare that percentage to the people who say they do or not trust the charity, right? And you would hope that the two percentages align, but there’s a wide chasm between what people feel about how they trust and how they feel that they need to trust before they give. And so we know that this trust problem exists. And I feel like GoFundMe was part of that cultural problem that you’re seeing, which is this decline in trust. But the thing is, I don’t happen to know for sure. And I don’t know how you could know. If institutions are less trustworthy today than they were 2025 years ago or even 30 years ago. In fact, I can tell you specific examples if you want to use my one-off case where I know they are, they were less trustworthy before than they are now. I know for a fact, given some of the places I’ve worked, that they’re way more trustworthy today than they were before, yet we trust them less now than we did in the past and that trust leads to this. desire to shut them down or to shout them out. Now, that doesn’t mean that when we see things wrong, we shouldn’t say something about it. And institutions have never been perfect and when things go wrong, they should be called out to fix those things. But I guess I draw a line when people sort of say, you know, we don’t need to talk to them, we don’t need to deal with them, just shut them down. I’m more in favor of, let’s find out what’s going on first, and if there’s a way to fix this, if it can be beneficial to us, right? If it can’t be beneficial, that’s another story. But if the institution can do things that can be helpful to what we’re trying to do, we should have conversations with them to try to fix it. Because Tony in the end, All nonprofits or institutions. And do we have all of us get everything right every time? No, but we shouldn’t be canceled. We should just fix it. We should just adapt and adjust and fix the problems, not say that, well, because this nonprofit did this thing wrong, they should be canceled. So that’s my only thing. I’m for trying to fix. Now, if an organization doesn’t want to fix it, that’s a whole another story. Then you can talk about canceling. But I’m trying to figure out how we can work to make these institutions work on behalf of people and the causes we care about rather than the alternative, which for me, as a baseline approach doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. What’s the, the John Gardner Award? Who, who was John Gardner? Oh my goodness, Tony. All right, so John Gardner was the founder of Independent Sector. He was also the founder of an organization called Common Cause, right? But more importantly, well, not more important, he did a lot of things. But John Gardner was a conservative, a moderate conservative who was the Head of what was then known as the Department of Health, Education and Welfare for the United States before split off into these three different bureaucracies, right? And he did remarkable work there, working in the Johnson administration. As a conservative. You’ll never see that again in, in the world, right? Never see that again in the world. He also for many years, headed the Carnegie Corporation. Which is, as you know, a grant-making foundation foundation that we have in America, one of the most preeminent and did great work through that. Role as well. Uh, in his later years, he was a professor at Stanford University. And wrote some remarkable treatises on the work of nonprofits and civil society. So, um, they named this award after him to honor people who are leaders of people, institutions, and causes. And so I took a minute to talk about the institutional aspect of that, which is where we seem to be losing a lot of our trust. But it was a great honor to get that award. Thanks to all the people involved. Well, congratulations again. Yeah, outstanding. Yeah, a lot of the institutional loss of trust comes from. Loud voices, uh, who have prominent followings telling us that institutions have been weaponized, corrupted. Uh, etc. and there are a lot of people who believe. If not everything, you know, uh, may maybe everything that prominent people say, they just believe it because of the, because of the messenger, not because the message is, is accurate, it’s just because who’s saying it, and that has eroded venerable institutions like our Department of Justice and our FBI and, and, and others, uh, and then, and it trickles down to. A lack of trust in nonprofits and nonprofits have been targeted as I was saying before that that puts us in that moment that I think GoFundMe uh may have been swept up in, in, in part, in part, not, not all because of the, the moment that it happened, but I think in part um but it does, it also creates. Um, A space for some conversation around how we communicate the value of nonprofits. Because if people aren’t giving and we see the numbers, right? And the numbers don’t tell a whole tale because we know that a lot of that has to do with religious giving. And if you take out religious giving. The numbers are less dramatic in terms of the decline, but it’s flat and it is going down. But the point is, Tony. Shouldn’t we all be having a conversation around how we Encourage The nonprofits to work together to deal with this whole issue of decline and trust. And do we communicate our value to society? Differently so that people find more reason and um we can begin to shift our culture so that giving is what we should be doing. And people are more comfortable giving to these institutions and understanding that, no, we’re not perfect and we’re not always gonna get everything right, but Um, more often than not, more people are going to be helped by these institutions than hurt. And I think that’s what. I’d like to see us begin to talk about. And I don’t have the language right. So don’t hold me to what the language should be. But I do think there’s a, there’s an opportunity. For us to begin talking about. The value of nonprofit organizations, what they mean to society. And how we can help the public show how, how we can show the public that we are trustworthy institutions. I think that’s what I like to see. I would like to see that on a grand scale. I mean, I, I think, I think nonprofits individually, you know, all the 1.4 million. I, I think they’re endeavoring to do that. They’re, they’re doing it with their limited audiences. Their, their, their audiences are the folks that follow them on social networks, they’re donors, they’re volunteers, maybe the community if it’s a local organization, I mean if it’s a large national organization, I, I, you know, I don’t, I don’t, I mean they have more, they have more. They have more people following them, uh, but I, I’m not sure the, the commitment is as deep as it is for a local organization, but But you know that’s each charity doing it individually talking to their constituents. But you know, when, when the messenger has, has millions and millions of followers and it’s a, and, and uh uh a media ecosystem following them around that amplifies the message, it’s, it’s very hard for, for individual nonprofits to defeat this broader, louder, more prominent message and messengers. So, so we need something on a bigger scale is what I’m saying. I’m not, I’m not disagreeing with you at all. We need to be able to match the scale of the negative commentary around the 501c3 community in this country. I don’t know who’s gonna lead that grand scale effort. And, and I think that the ground game is still good. I think what every nonprofit does with their donors is important. And Lord knows our found our AFP colleagues lead with that, right? When, when we go out and talk to donors, we’re sharing that message of trust. Because every member of our association has to commit to a code of ethics. See, most people don’t understand. You can’t just sign up to be a member of AFP. You have to agree to abide by a code of ethics. And we have an ethics committee that will sanction members who are found to be in violation of that code. Yeah, we talked about that so our all of our members lead with that. But what I’m suggesting is, they need help too. I mean, and I think a conversation among foundations and nonprofits, large and small, collectively, maybe through an activity like independent sector or council on foundations and, and, you know, collaborating with AFP and other really vital organizations in our society. To begin shifting this message to something different than what people seem to think we are all about. Will make a difference. And by the way, people still give to nonprofits. But they’re not giving at the level that we would like to see them give, and that’s a huge missed opportunity for our society, especially now when we’re gonna need these organizations to function at a high level more than ever before. It’s time for Tony’s Take too. Thank you, Kate. Just about 2 weeks ago, I had the honor of opening The Sarkey Foundation Regional Leadership Forum. Which is really, it’s a conference, uh, in Oklahoma City. Sarkey Foundation funds only Oklahoma nonprofits. And they invited me to open. The first day with stand-up comedy. So I did a 5 minute set or so. And that was the very first time that I’ve, I’ve spoken at a conference and opened with Stand up. So I, I’m grateful to them for trusting me that. Uh, that I wouldn’t bomb, which I didn’t. Uh, I love how the, you know, the, the comedy. Outcomes are all war related. Oh, I bombed. I killed. I killed, I killed him. I slayed him. So, uh, I killed. It went very well. People laughed at the appropriate moments and uh did not laugh at inappropriate moments. So it all went very well, felt very good when I, uh, I then I then introduced the, uh, the CEO and she gave her opening remarks for the conference. So, I’m just very grateful to them for Trusting, but uh. I would open the their conference. Appropriately and lightheartedly, so they get off to a a fun start. So, thank you, Starkey Foundation. That is Tony’s take too. Kate I think you need to change your Opening now, you are the aptly named host and the podfather and the comedic genius. All right, you’re getting carried away, which I appreciate. Associate producer should have vast enthusiasm for the host. Absolutely number one fan. All right. All right, maybe I will change. No, I’m not, but uh, comedy comedy genius, let’s, yeah, thank you. Thank you, I’ll just stay, thank you for your enthusiasm. We’ve got Beauco but loads more time. Here’s the rest of Another conversation with Art Taylor, with Art Taylor. We need the messaging, you know, at scale. Uh, well, look, you, you know, you did a national message when you were one of the three co-signers of the The, uh, the letter to the letter to America, the, uh, the overhead myth letterhead right when you were CEO of Better Business Bureau and then it was also CEO of GuideStar and um and the CEO of Charity Navigator. I remember Ken Berger was then the Charity Navigator CEO who who was the CEO of GuideStar at the time? It was Jacob, Jacob Jacob, Jacob, thank you. Great. Now, of course, you know, in candid, um, but I mean that was a that was a letter to the, to America. Yeah I think it was addressed to the donors of America or something like that, right? So, I mean, it’s, it’s possible to, we just, we just have to scale the message to defeat the scale of the, the contradictory message that, you know, that we’re a Ponzi scheme. Well, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go by that, but I, I hear that’s the scale of what people are saying. Well, that was Elon Musk. I’m talking about the scale of, you know, he has millions and millions of followers on X. There’s, there’s a guy with that kind of scale. I’m not, I’m not saying we, we, we have to answer his claim, but, but that’s, that’s the kind of rhetoric that. Hurts the reputation of nonprofits when when we’re called the Ponzi scheme at at grand scale. So we need a grand scale message to not necessarily counteract his individual message, but, but that theme of messaging that that we are bad for the, we’re we’re bad, we’re bad, we’re fraudulent. OK, so what, what you’re pointing out is something that we have to think about, so. There are people who have large followings and have the ability to help shape our culture, right? Maybe some of the answer is to go to them. With a message of. The hope and opportunity that comes from these institutions and see if some of them would be willing to talk along with us. About the importance of giving, right? So, there may be others out there, and I don’t wanna name names, but people who are society sort of looks up to. And I’m not talking about politicians necessarily, but I’m talking about people who are cultural icons in our society. We need to get them on board to use their platforms and megaphones. To begin talking about what good comes from giving. Now it’s a little tricky, right? Because if you’re a multi-million dollar celebrity, It’s easy for you to talk about giving. But When you, when that, that might not translate well to a person who feels like, I don’t have that much to give. Yeah, they can talk about giving all they want, but they’re not in my shoes. How dare they talk about giving like that? I think there’s some risk of that, but I don’t think it’s. I still think it’s worth. Finding some of those greater angels who own cultural megaphones. To talk about the importance of giving at any level. See, that’s the point. It’s not I need just, I need like a $1. I need a quarter. I need a nickel. Every gift matters. No gift is too small. We need participation. We need to take our kids. Um, when we go to buy some food, if we have a little extra, take a can of something and drop it off at a food bank. So our kids. Can see the value. Of giving back to others. We need that kind of thing going on, I believe in our society. So that We can begin to look, look after and take care of each other and develop that common spirit and that common purpose. So that our country can thrive. Without that, I worry that we devolved to. It’s your fault if you don’t have. It’s not always their fault if they don’t have. Usually, it’s a combination of factors that a person finds themselves in need. And I always loved our country because we never turned our back on those folk. And I’ve been one of, by the way, those folks, I was one of those folk. My family didn’t always have all the ends we needed. And in our community, I can remember, go down the street and ask Miss Dorothy for a cup of sugar. Or if somebody was, somebody had died. Nobody had insurance. We took up a collection to bury somebody in our neighborhoods. That’s how that happened. We looked after each other. You get me all going now. But that’s what has to happen. Yeah, we, we have, we, we’ve lost. We have lost the commitment to the greater good. That, you know, it, it, it’s, we, we, we talk about our freedoms, but we don’t counter that with our responsibilities and part of the responsibility. Used to be that we look out for each other we look out for the folks who aren’t as well off as we are and there’s always somebody who’s less well off regardless of who you are. There’s always somebody worse worse off, less well off we we’ve lost the commitment to the greater good. It, it’s become about me and my family. Well, I, Tony, I don’t wanna say all of us, right, uh, but enough of us have you need to try to get it back. 30 to 35%, 35 Myuturist friends are teaching me new, new ways of communicating. All right. They what they’re saying to me is try to avoid the absolute whenever possible. Just try to be as clear about what you’re saying, but avoid the absolute because everything, everything. See, even I say everything. Many things is a better word. are a continuum. Of possibilities. It’s not usually this or that. Our minds are oriented in many cases now to think of this or that, and that can cause us problems. But we should maybe think of the world as more of a continuum of possibility. Where in between the this is or that’s, there’s nuance and people who are in different places on that continuum. So I wanna respect that as much as I can and say that it would be great if we could slide more people from the I’m not interested in giving part to the I am interested in giving part and then further down to the I will give part. And we seem to be losing more people going in the other direction. And that’s what I think I’d like to see us change. I’d like to see us change that. We, we don’t have a, a spokesperson or spokespeople. We, we, as a, as a collective, as a community, a nonprofit community doesn’t have. A voice or several voices out uh in the media, on the influential podcasts because that’s where a lot of opinion gets gets made is on podcasts now. Um, you know, we don’t, so that’s it. We don’t, we don’t have a coordinated. Message, I mean we got 1.4 million messages and there are organizations like AFP and the National Council for nonprofits, Independent sector board source, you know, but a lot of times I think they’re, they’re talking, I mean, you’re CEO of the Association of fundraising Professionals. I think when, when AFP talks, I think you’re mostly talking to fundraising professionals. That’s our, that’s our echo chamber. And, and I’m not criticizing that you have an essential role as a professional organization of professional fundraisers and with the code of ethics, etc. I’m not criticizing that, but a lot of times we’re, we’re talking to ourselves, not the broader community that does doesn’t understand us and, and. In the best case, they don’t understand what we do, it’s kind of a benign opinion they don’t really know and in the worst case, they have a negative opinion of what we do because of. Commentary from, uh, you know, from, from the federal government and people who have big followings. So we gotta get outside our echo chamber. I mean, I, you know, I, I do a lot on LinkedIn, but I know I’m talking to folks in nonprofits. Um, this podcast is for nonprofits. It’s not for the broader community. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. So it’s not an easy challenge. The, the echo, you know, our echo chamber uh hurts us. We don’t have people talking outside of our. Of our community and that’s what you’re advocating. That’s what I’m saying. I mean like if I could throw out Taylor Swift. People listen to Taylor Swift. LeBron James. Love my people listen to LeBron James, right? Who are uh some of the great football players like uh Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey and Jalen Hurts and these great athletes and. And um entertainers, right? I don’t I’ve seen a lot of movies lately, but you know who I’m, what I’m talking about. Those are people who help shape our culture. And It’s not their responsibility to do it. But it would be nice if we could talk to them about the importance of them doing it. They’re not obligated. They have their own challenges too. But man, what a lift it would be if we could appeal to them. To their good natures to say, you know, We all could use help from time to time. And most of them give a lot of times you don’t hear about it. You don’t hear about it when they give. But what if There was a way for them to communicate this message around giving back to community. And if we could accept that message in the spirit that it was given, which is not to say, look at me, I made it. I’m giving. You haven’t made it the way I am, but I still want you to give. If we could get them to accept the message as It’s just beautiful to be able to give anything you can when you can. So my point is that, wouldn’t it be wonderful? If we could appeal to some of the cultural icons in our society. To encourage them. To do something that they’re not in any way obligated to do. Mhm. Because they have to protect their own brands and images. I get that. But if they would simply look at the good that could come. From a message from them around the importance. Of giving to each other and giving to institutions that can make a difference in their communities. I think that could have a huge impact on the psyche. Cause I think giving, by the way, is It’s kind of an innate thing. Giving to institutions though may not be. Especially when we hear so much negativity around them. But, again, without institutions, how do we get anything done? Because we need to work together collaboratively. And consistently and persistently to solve difficult problems. And that’s what these nonprofit institutions, large and small. National and community allow us to do. Uh, you’re right. I, I, I, I agree that giving is an innate thing like you were talking about growing up and, uh, uh, raising, putting together a little fund to, to, to bury folks in the community. I think at, at that level, I think like helping family and your neighbors, I think that’s innate. Uh, and, and to me that’s a, uh, to me a natural extension of that is giving to nonprofits because they’re just their community, their, their neighbors just at scale, you know, it’s just, it’s a bunch of community members who got together and now they’re now they built a kitchen and now. They feed the hungry or they shelter the homeless or whatever work they do in the community. So to me it’s a natural extension, uh, and I, I think that, you know, I can’t help but impose my own beliefs on, you know, the broader, broader, I agree with you. I agree with you, but, but we’re countering these, this very detrimental, very vocal, very popular, loud voices that are, are hurting the community and that we don’t have a. Coordinated response like you’re describing to to offset that to say no that that’s not here’s here’s what big nonprofits do and here’s what your local community nonprofits do and you know all the folks you named and obviously since I’m a podcaster, I think of Joe Rogan. I mean, I would love, I would love for someone like you to be a guest on Joe Rogan’s podcast to talk to him for two hours. I don’t, I don’t know who he is. I, I’ve heard of him, of course he got the biggest. Megaphone in the world, right? I would love to go on his show and talk about stuff like that. Oh, I would suggest you pitch, I would suggest your, your PR folks, uh, like pitch, you know, let’s talk about the nonprofit sector for two hours, Joe. And, and then I would welcome that. Well, I don’t know anybody there. If I did, I, I’d probably have a bigger audience, but I, I love we know. So we’ll get to them, but I, I think you’re right, that’s that’s a huge, that’s a big megaphone along with all the people, you know, the, the types of, you know, A and B celebrities that you’re talking about, um, we don’t, we don’t, we don’t have that. And the detrimental, the negative charity side. Has a lot of voices like that. They’re, I don’t, they’re not so much entertainers as they are, I think mostly politicians and talking heads that don’t really, don’t even know what they’re talking about often, but they’ve got, Talking points. We need to have, we need to have our talking points by spoken by prominent folks. Well, look, speaking of talking points, I have a class that I gotta teach here in a little bit. Did you know I teach at Columbia University and it’s full of nonprofit management? Well, I teach ethics. I teach governance, and I teach, um. Um, leading and managing nonprofits, leadership and management and nonprofits, I don’t wanna keep you tonight, so I gotta get my talking points together for that. But, but Tony, you call me anytime. Let’s keep, you know, these conversations going. I, I welcome the opportunity to engage with you. You’ve, as I said before, been doing this for so long that you’re part of it, you’re part of our infrastructure now. And um I honor and um respect everything you’re doing. So keep doing it. And uh we will and uh I will certainly have you back. All right, we’ll talk. I, I won’t you, so enjoy your Thanksgiving. Oh, you too, it’s gonna be epic at our house. All the grandkids will be there. Enjoy. All right, thank you, Art. Yeah. Next week, managing money and your banking relationship. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.