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Nonprofit Radio for December 22, 2017: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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My Guest:

Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO

“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical duty. Author Dennis Miller walks us through.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cattle lep c if you tried to hypnotize me into the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next ceo as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be the hyre your chief executive officer. So starts the book a guide to recruiting your next ceo, whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical board duty author dennis miller returns to walk us through on twenty state too next month’s non-profit radio we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant and by wagner. Sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers wittner, cpas, dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream tony dot m a slash tony tell us i’m glad that i can welcome dennis miller back then a c miller he’s, a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than thirty five years experience working with non-profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s, managing director of the non-profit search group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, his fifth, is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. The executive search handbook for non-profit boards you’ll find dennis and his book at dennis c miller dot com he’s at dennis c miller and i’m very glad that his book brings him back to non-profit radio. Welcome back, dennis c miller happy to be back, tony way happy well happened years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you what does the sea foreign dennis, c miller, dot com and charles that’s my father’s name. So, so many dennis mellows and grammar school in high school, we put my seeing and i’m very proud to be a similar dennis charles. All right, you don’t mind if i don’t call you tennessee miller the whole hour, though, i just call me yet that it’s anything you’re like. Okay, now. Dennis overviewing i just have to be it has to be anymore denigrating the dentist, then it’s fine, now you’re by phone, you’re in, you’re in los angeles, is that right? Yeah, i’m actually in the los angeles area of isn’t that it’s a business appear this week and now we’re spending time. My wife and i went our two sons on their families and grandson out here and los angeles and heading up to santa monica santa monica pier, right after the show. So good. All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want take off now, we can just back the whole thing. Did you do you need to go public transportation is going to leave in five minutes or something or you’re okay. You’re okay for the hour. Okay. Now remember the last time you were here? You almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. Your your, um your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You needed a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to los angeles. And this way you can call him by phone. Well, okay, you don’t. Worry about running running to the studio. Okay, okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what i was saying? I really have no salmon. Naralo were had a regular. You may have. No, you did. You had a high. You’re definitely out of my heart because your face was red. All right, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome? Well, think about it that there’s probably over a million more more than a million non-profits around the country and with the number of people that are just paid to retire over the next five plus years on any research, uh, just staggering sometimes close a seventy five percent. The ah the vast majority of people went into the non public sector and leadership positions where baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the communion. So there’s, a lot of retirement going on, and the the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next ceo. And then on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing, so it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit the next ceo that’s why i wrote the book ok, seventy five percent turnover in the next ten years we’re going to have i’m probably less i mean, it’s, it’s quite a bit, if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, where you know it’s now two thousand, you know, seventeen and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needed get latto leadership so it’s going to be required for this sector. Now, one of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hyre a such consultant now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book you’re biased, but, you know, can you weigh the pros and cons for us? You know, so i’m biased certainly wasn’t if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, i think the book will help them with that for sure you want to go in alone is this year. You have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s going to be needed for the board members, too? Not only identify the profile of the next candidate, but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved that lay out those except in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures that they’re going to be paying and most trees probably in area someplace between twenty to thirty five percent are cases. Twenty five that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet. So you want to have an expertise this like anything else? If he needed a lawyer of financial account, you’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own and the other aspect, tony, uh, for people who want to go about on their own is by just posting sort of adds a social media. Whatever you going toe on ly get the people that are looking for a job. And you know no either how good they are. However performing they are. Well, if they’re happy, a search from is going to recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What i have that those percentages thatyou quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is that yes. So someone makes ah a position whether the ceo our c f o r development amglobal to say the position i was one hundred thousand dollars. You know, the average three is going to be, you know, twenty five thousand dollars. But if this day five years it’s five thousand dollars a year which comes out to be about a hundred dollars a week or twenty hours of any and, you know the thing about it’s, probably the smartest investments that aboard would want to make. Okay, noah particularly because the right person and they stay for a period of time. It it’s okay. And i guess the main advantage of going on your own is your saving that fee. Well, you saving the fee, but you also, you know, better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna have that so that you poisoned cons here, but most most really good organizations will use the search from for certain keys positions. Okay, okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before ah, first break, dennis so let’s, just identify that this ceo change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so, this could be an opportunity, a great opportunity. Well, that’s, how you look at him and i were doing a search right now when we’ve got the finalists been seen by the search committee and in beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm. And, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from, you know, not a crisis, too. This is a phenomenal opportunity, too. I just take it, get a new leader. But i have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while. Or fairly new it’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So it if the glass is half full it’s i look at it is very exciting times one organization, most clients feel the same way, all right? And we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this right now. Time to take a break pursuant. Proven strategies for stewardship. That is their oh so timely webinar replay for you stewardship strategies, because lots of people giving right this quarter this month how do you keep them giving year after year after year? You know how costly it is to lose donors and replace them. We know nationwide that donor attrition is around seventy five percent annually. Sad that’s ah that’s supposed to be ah, supposed to be our president tweeting sad. But if you have to tell the judge, you have to tell what it is then it doesn’t work. Ah, but but maybe it did work. I’m not there to listen to you laugh. So maybe it worked out fine, so i didn’t need to. Rachel and kathy are going to give you examples of top thank you’s. They talk about automation without sacrificing personalization. They have free templates for you to use. And if you don’t mind, i would like to throw in that the value. Of the personal touch of handwritten notes for your special donors, all proven stewardship strategies. You’ll find that webinar at tony dahna em, a slash pursuant capital p now, back to dennis miller and his book, recruiting, ah, guide to recruiting your next ceo and dennis similar so let’s, talk about that. That possibility for assessment. You, uh, you say that you might. I considered doing strategic planning. I guess if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next ceo. Yeah, well, the you know, the question always is, you know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do your hyre our ceo or d’you hyre our chief development officer before you have a plan and and kind of it’s up it’s up to the client, the organization, but give you a couple examples, whites sort of better toe at least an idea of where you want to go and what you want to achieve. So let’s say, uh, you want it, you go out and hyre ceo hoping that day will build your plan and let some party of plan is to be more involved in philanthropy maur involved in cultivating. So seeing donors? What if that seo hee just hyre doesn’t have that experience will now you’re stuck. So what if your needs is to grow? You’re bored and you, seo yi sa doesn’t have that so one of the things that i recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan, but certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision where you had it, where you want to head, what some of the big strategic goals you have, um, what things that you need to get done, and then obviously it’s much easier to in to identify that the characteristics on the qualities and experience of the ceo. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for your organization. So that’s, why it’s important to take a look at kind of way you want to go before you just went on board? You say that if you’re not going to do a full, full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are? Yeah, i mean, i think there are some people that, you know don’t do oppcoll bonem metoo plan, i think that you could do that, but i think more importantly, uh, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life, uh, cycle as an organization and as a board um, and then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of where you’re at that helped us for magically beginning the onboarding plus is what your next ceo? So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind, so i do think that you wanna have, and i point this out in the book, you want to have a sense of your strategic vision, we’re heading and pick up some of the key goals you’re having here. So when you’re interviewing kayman thatyou want, make sure they’re lined with those gold here and it makes a much smoother transition, some of the goals you you lay out besides mission envision our fund-raising and development, you know what you want do around that you’re bored ceo relationship, your programs and services and of course, you know, the book explains what goes into detail on each of those, but, um, yeah, i would have a couple of it, certainly. You know, your organizational capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have ah plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you border. You’re building the right board. Are you branding the organization and communicating with the impact you’re having is important things today. So there’s a lot of ah, strategic goals, that one. Should be having with this process and you want to get a sort of buy-in from your board and have the new ceo committed help temple with this upleaf and okay, so this new ceo is gonna have need to have some skills on dh you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing ceo are. We want to be thinking beyond that, i mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is going to do is help you look forward, not current, you know, you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current ceo’s talents, but you want to build on those for the future and you identify a whole bunch of, you know, potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit, relationship builder, etcetera. But you want to be going beyond the current? Yeah, i mean, it’s easy question when you have someone, you know, you know what kind of kind of see what you’re looking for? And then the person who has been in the job, you know, for the past ten, fifty years, your name is surely people we’d like someone like charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that you previously eoe had maybe sell it, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that i have in the book, in another books, in my work i do, tony is the idea of today’s competencies for ah, executive leadership in on public sector, dramatically different than they were five, ten years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past. You know, aboard we’ll look for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relation of in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out get a grant. Though their skills are still important today, they look for more than just skills. But competition traits such as they want a visionary thinker today, when the past the ceo or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for ceos to create their own vision cream organization. I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of grey. Division number two certainly. People want the idea of relationship will the building relationships outside inside the organization? Uh, someone who’s, a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is in partnership that you need not just managed him when you got so is the whole siri’s of conferences that identifying the book, including, you know, today being a collaborate it’s, not about how big of a budget you have in control it’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass out there for ceos and executive represented, but i use the term song with ceo. Exactly. Director? Yeah. That’s a fair that’s. Fair fares. Similarities. Of course. I did have a guest years ago. Eugene fram. He was a professor that i think he was a university of rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the ceo. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and ceo. That chief executive makes it less likely. Now it doesn’t make no guarantee, but less likely that board members will get involved in the nitty gritty the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging ceo versus an executive director? I don’t. Do you have any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one. Over the other day, i d’oh you know, tony it’s a point you’re raises a really good one. And i do highly in the book of my work. But i do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer. Um, the more contemporary title is bored shiver support president what you kind the past is, um, it may just be words, but i think they have a lot of connotations. They do hide them so i’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top late personal pipe paid for sex should be the president ceo. And i think that was provoc pulawski right there when you’re out there with donorsearch oh, it’s more than just an executive director overseen the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen? I do. I do before the words ceo cubine taking andi also executive director. I mean that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non-profit terms way wanted to think that running like businesses run. This thing like a business happens. To be a nonprofit corporation. But don’t tell this to run like a business on my other interviews with you came up the term, you know, non-profit attacks that business plan, i think it’s important that today’s title be ceo. I just really think that important title they have let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing. Well, clearly, i think the this you know that in terms of size of dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on such absolute who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experienced with search maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good that’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of, you know, twelve to fifteen people, you may one of the search committee of maybe five, you know, maybe seven maximum, but i’ve seen larger or smaller. Um, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two, uh, be tremendous amount. Of time commitment so the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be in involvement here in some time, and then obviously, the key part of that will be who will be your chair, the search committee, in some cases it’s, a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, a lot of people ask me all the time. Would it be ok, though? Has the form of a former board chair? A starita search for money and i would say maybe i would say maybe on ly, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for the future and not somebody think of something because they won’t know like what they’re looking for, yeah, this’s committee’s got to be a forward approaching organization, afford protect committee so i think that’s kind of that that’s something to think that i would be looking for a nose of membership. What about an employee putting one one employee on the committee? I don’t think that’s a good idea, actually, i think it’s a bad idea to come out writer bae and say not well, give example. Okay, uh, i’ve had people wondering to put, you know, uh, you know, the current ceo on the search committee, and the answer is no, that law office of the current ceo, maybe and help in the search committee and the consultant or either inside or outside of the search committee helped develop aspects of the position provoc what will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next ceo? But the board hires and fires a ceo um it’s also very uncomfortable before a current ceo to be on the search committee. I had a case where it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that i helped with succession planning in they had internal candidate for the position. And when the search committee, as this person, what changes would you make she’s very awkward to be talking about the change you want to make with theo? Of course, right. So i have. But now, those times when you get there, some people have their v p of hr on the search committee if they need it lays on. But remember, people it’s not a good idea. Has staff it’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his boardmember dahna okay, predominately. And then you said maybe a volunteer. I love you. He needs expertise. I mean, if you know if you’re going to not have a search committee and may sometimes people can hyre a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But i think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that type of thing so you can build it up with the great. Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is going to be maintained, right? You want a crucial because on i make it clear to all my such you could be. You could be sued for. Ah, um, you could be potentially have a lot of liability for exposing that. There is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way. You know, tony is it’s been interviewing for me and and before you know it, tony’s, you know, employer finds out, you know, feels like this oil is the prom. So you have to protect confidentially, it’s something that i have to establish the trust of my chance coming in, derek, they’re they’re adamant, and it’s just goes with the same goes with the business, i have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a job. Yeah, and this goes part me, tio, some of the time commitment, you know, if if there isn’t a, uh, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is going to be after hours, people are going to be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six p m yeah, after the day i’ve had, you know, i mean, our business is growing tremendously, what’s what’s going on, but, you know, when people say yeah, you know, maybe i’ll do it myself, but listen, if you can, if you know it’s up to you but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what the third, if you want up with the outreach to potential candidates is very time consuming if you’re going to delegate that members of the search committee a wall so, you know, professionals are working or even retired it’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people, it’s a lot of time of all the narrow and candidates down and doing the reference, checking it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in a process, not just putting it out there and then, you know, interview case it’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity that’s really important, which is when i was just going to point out that you say some things that caught my eye was very, very interesting i hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation. So our role teo, be selling the applicants on the organization not just to be not just to be a neutral a neutral committee, but be advocates for the auriga yeah, i mean, the candies are going to come in, they’re gonna come in prepared and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, jeez, i thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best? Thing since sliced bread. Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need candy it’s, goingto, besides what the search consultant is going to be telling them about the organization recruiting for as a search committee, i remember that you want to be portraying avery plaza of image. You want to be sort of extending your hand, you want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome and warm, even if you’re not going to be selected them. And you noted, under process, you want to believe what a very positive feeling for donorsearch that’s, a major altum search committee acid. All right, interesting let’s, move, teo, resume screening. You’ve got you’ve got a ton of tips, you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of, but you’ve got you’ve got a lot of tips to share, share a couple of resume screen tips. Now we’re at that stage that these things were coming in. Just repeat that, tony. I’m sorry about a lot of people coming in. Resume resumes. A lot of resumes coming out sametz share share a couple of resume screening tips. Oh, couple things one of you want to look for clary right off the bat. Eyes cloudy. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get ahold of you? You don’t always have to have your home accuracy stays, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think i look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where where’s your career, ben and a couple of tips. You look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly that that’s a signal textile, red flag, red flag and it were bad thing. But it should be there. The other thing that, uh, those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences. But you never get a sense of where they performed that. So two things on a resume. Both. For people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for position or respond to a search from is clary, is the resume clear of what i’ve accomplished? Is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have? And i think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that really yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise children absolutely was a caregiver was a caregiver for pareles that was concerned about a gap, and i said, just tell me you have a phd in parenthood. I mean, i’d be proud to be apparent way we don’t have parents, we don’t, you know, keep going, so i think it’s a totally appropriate but be honest with what you don’t want to do, it’s, not the cover things up here, and so then, you know, present yourself in a positive tone, but certainly be honest, if you took a couple of years out or timeout to raise children to be proud of it, and so you did, but these skills and bring back the table and begin the work force, i think it’s implying with that, let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off when you see people with email addresses that are hotmail or a o l does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology? No, i don’t, you know, not any detail. Why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business emails and their personal emails, and so they don’t want ah search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into there. Professional at work email like, yeah, no, i get that. I’m okay with the email accounts. It’s, when i see you know, dennis at, you know, big love of dot com i have eyes that see you. I’m gonna try that one. Yeah, okay, but wait. Yeah. And then when the e mails that are unprofessional, like baby cakes, you know, but yeah, i don’t want to be the case. That field. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right, i think it’s okay does to protect your you know, your private from work, i think that’s. All right, but let me ask you, but but my point was if it’s an added you know, sort of an out of date domain like jool or hotmail or yeah, who you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology it’s possible? I know nothing about that. If that you know, if you have an out of the email address and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address on minutes at a oh, well, i mean, i’m fine with that. I’m fine with that. All right. As long as not baby cakes today. Well, all right. Way to take a break. Regular cps. I got a testimonial for you, quote. I was new at my position when i began working with wagner cpas. My confidence has grown knowing that i can rely on the professionals of wagner to answer any questions and make recommendations that will ensure the success of our non-profit. And you see, i always say they go beyond the numbers. This’s the truth. It comes out right here in the testimonials, we were given sound advice enabling us to increase investment income while at the same time protecting assets. Tony. Inserts a question. Does your audit firm do that for you? Recommending investment investment alternatives for you? I trust and respect our audit team and look forward to their annual visit end quote, how many do you look? I’m dying to know. Do you look forward? Your annual audit that’s probably more like dreading your annual audience, but somebody from this midsize religious organization in the midwest looks forward to their annual audit. You can to check out wagner, regular cpas dot com apolo software you’re non-profit but you used accounting software made for business stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books like quickbooks turbo cash asap microsoft they’re not made for you. They don’t do fund accounting for you. They’re built for businesses apple owes accounting is designed for non-profits it’s in the dna for tired for pete’s sake it’s in a dna easy, affordable and you need thio use to check out the pricing. By the way, it is quite reasonable non-profit accounting for you, they’re at non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony steak too. Next month on non-profit radio you’re twenty eighteen planning if you want free business coaching in twenty eighteen we’ll have a guest from score he’ll be telling you all about it. You’re online giving plan for twenty eighteen joe garrick, the fund-raising authority will be with me. Where’s, the new tax law mean for your overall twenty eighteen fund-raising plan. Jean takagi is going to parse it out for us. How about in twenty eighteen? You get free software and consulting from oracle net suite. The vp of their social impact team will be on plus maria and reassemble course. You know her aimee semple board. You know her with their twenty eighteen plans. It’s all in january. Or you need to do is listen. And that lovely is listener is tony steak too? And doesn’t that sound like live listener? Love is coming up. Indeed. You were right would reach new jersey. Woodbridge, i want you to identify yourself. I demand it. Otherwise you have to stop listening. I want to know who this season. Woodbridge, new jersey. So loyal! Identify yourself! Use the hashtag non-profit radio on twitter, email me tonia tonia martignetti dot com i wanna know who you are. Tampa, florida, new york, new york multiple thank you for that live listeners love to all these places port murray in new jersey honolulu, hawaii killing worth connecticut live. Listen, love going out there, the honolulu i don’t think we’ve had certainly not recently, i don’t know if you’ve had a little before live love going out there all those places. How about in china, guangzhou, lee, how and other in china that we cannot see? That’s interesting. Guangzhou we can see other cities we cannot see. But now to everyone in china, united kingdom, of course live lesser love to you tokyo tokyo was with us. Konichiwa, germany is with us. Guten tag germany on germany mast and also castle kassell, germany, putin dog to everyone in germany listening and also in japan toko ri zala, konnichi wa to took a result. How about those podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand of you, the vast majority of our audience that’s where you’re listening and pleasantries go to you. Thank you, podcast listeners for being with us and i am and fm affiliate listeners throughout the stations throughout the station’s well throughout the stations throughout the world yeah, throughout the country anyway. Throughout the stations throughout the country affections, affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners in those stations throughout the states throughout the country, affections to you. Dennis miller’s with us, you know him, we’re talking about his book, a guide to recruiting your next ceo, you know, we can we can cover the whole book, so just get the thing we’re going to say, you know, it’s, a dentist, see miller dot com that’s where you’ll find dennis in this book just get the damn thing, it’s just that i don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right. Anyway, denis let’s, continue our our joint through, um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when they really don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things we’re looking for? They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability? Absolutely. I mean, the tv process. Once we screen people in terms of resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone into the process and we can get a better sense of with they are as a potential candidate, we may explain a final car. Weather at one of salary package so without wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on the team builders over there? You know, ah, they collaborators of the communicators and then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results? And i think those two things is what kind of, you know, separates the people who get to positions and those that don’t hear i we advised certainly the search committee on, you know, the question should be focused on limited tony to, you know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal, what things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game antionette glamarys also there too, things that are a crucial now one of things that you may ask me, i’ll just what answer ahead of time we have and your listeners can get their contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non-profit search dot com. We provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. Ah, what a total score fifty. And whether it’s on leadership, communications, street, strategic planning, board, relationships, etcetera. So when people of actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got forty eight people, suppose, you know, going in the search committee members can evaluate for people. And i have this matrix a kind of sense of where, you know, people come out scores and usually it’s a good tool that have for them. You have a lot of resources at the non-profits search dot com. So you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s, get into some details here. Now is the whole committee meeting with every every candidate. Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then i don’t think that doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets or going to judge people differently. Yeah, well, here’s what we do, um and, um the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates now in a case we just have here. Because it’s got multiple locations. There are actually eight people on, uh, a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which weiss but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meets somebody. Candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee. He’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of zoho so every every candidate should be seen by every person on the search committee. Absolutely. You you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit. You know, you don’t want to be asking. Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions. Yeah. You you don’t want to say, you know, you want to you want to engage him in conversation and they want to get you in a conversation two and so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current? Position on your most recent position. What was the you know, your biggest achievement? Hey, is an issue for us. How would you deal with it? You stay away from the yes and no questions. And we have, you know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here, you know, question to be asking, but yeah, not open it. Not not. Yes or no. Open ended questions. Engagement of conversation is the best of them. Okay, let’s say, we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s, our next step in the committee. Well, what you want to do is the one i have everybody’s gonna score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring. So you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is i have a conversation with this chair of the search committee. And then, uh, i will meet with the search committee. One of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee depending where the searches on what it’s for and then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates is one person they like, and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s. Two final plans. They’re not sure. So that there’s a process here. The process here is obviously too, uh, what? The other candidates know that they did well and they thank him before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience. That’s mohr meets the needs of my client. Ah, we hope to see him again the future and then focus in on, you know, having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making, making a final offered and employment contract employment agreement right now in this scoring, obviously somewhere going to score highest and high esten hyre than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, you know, even the highest scoring one or two, they’re just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like i said, every in a group of five somebody’s going to score the highest but but even that highest one, they just don’t feel right. You know, how do we we feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process. Well, have expressed happened. You know, only once in my recent experience, where in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and, you know, as you know, the millions and millions of people that serve our non-profit board throughout this country and in other countries and canada, you know, our bright, committed people they gotta see if you get a feel for you know who you think would fit in here. So usually, you know, the scores will help you because it gives us feedback. But usually you get a kind of a feeling you would be the best person for that. If there’s a situation, um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates. I absolutely would highly recommend that he go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. Uh, we started with believing out of pool of eighteen candidates, uh, middle down, teo wither down to eleven that was down to five and five people came in, and so with the entire team and that team in there of identified, you know, to people and long behold some discussion and some some time issues and then people not sure what decision to make and there was some inexperience on the team making the decision and they kind of planted and they just, uh, well, i’m not sure i’m ready to pull the trigger, so we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again, and usually you don’t get the great candidates again, and we did, and it worked out so it’s for some reason, you don’t feel it. I dont just say, well, because is a high score because you’re going to live with this person quarter what use with this not happen, tony, you, um you know, the search is doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate, but if a some reasons you feel that, you know, this is i just don’t feel it for this person is going to fit in here. Then don’t just pick someone because of scored the scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate? Is this a stage where we should be calling references now? We’ve we’ve narrowed it down to our top two or so, yeah, so what way? Well, a cz we get the final can’t wait do ask for a reference, but here’s, what we do, we don’t ask them, they could tell us who they’re going to use the reference we are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking for example, and a ceo case we know they can’t talk about the company, we’d like the house, then talk. We’d like to talk to someone who is a boardmember maybe a boardmember another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them, so, uh, we don’t always talkto the references i had a time, because if you’ve got, you know, four final candidates we spent about our time it’s that wee if you’re not going to be chosen, why go? Through the house full of asking people speaking the reference. But with your various final candidate, we actually do a thorough construct. And i have a little bit of a funny story that that you listen, um, you may enjoy just quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when i did my first search believing not thirty years ago. And i was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people. And there was a man, a woman. And i remember the, uh the man had sort of mohr experience, but the young woman has seemed like much more potential. Anyway, for some reason, the man had given me a list of ten references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me ten references, and i call it the first six references. Iss man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru by the time i got seven. Eight. I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time i got the nine and ten people were asking me, you know, why did you what did this guy even you? Give me a reference, i recommend anything, so the moral stories you want to keep, you know, kind of dig in here and it’s, certainly you have a right as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we do, um, and same time protecting confidential alley, but certainly, you know, we need to do with our research on them and in addition to references, we obviously do a check on educational credentials, and then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not teo regarding they want pursue, uh, feeling criminal background check will and credit credit risk of credit reports. It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of what was thirty years ago. We didn’t have work, but have we have word we’re going? We’re using them word perfect where you had toe right down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use like the last four we’re we’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we got to take a break, tell us credit card and payment processing. They have a video. Check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s. It explains what the process of businesses switching to tell us is and how you the non-profit that refers them will get fifty percent of the revenue that tello’s urns that’s passive revenue for you your organization. Each month it talks about their one hundred percent satisfaction rate. They have a price match guarantee, but that’s in the video, but for non-profit radio listeners, you get way beyond a mere price match. If if tell us, can’t help, you’re the first referred business is by saving the money, not just matching but saving. Then you get that two hundred fifty dollars, that you’ve heard me talk about, so worth it for you very likely tell us we’ll be able to save the money, but just in case not you’re protected and so is the business. Really, because it’s still still then is helping you. In the video covers, free switching to tell us they have a ninety day easy out but tell us has a hundred percent satisfaction rate, so they’re not gonna need not gonna need the easy out ninety days. That means there and it’s free, but they’re not going to eat it, but it is there, but they’re not gonna need it. Think about the businesses that make sense for you to refer and check out the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us now, back to dennis miller and his book, a guide to recruiting next ceo let’s continue our joint ajanta dennis okay, so we’ve checked references, references and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours and what their meeting some of the staff now too, and maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our services no, what we worked a man don’t do that metoo staff until they are having a place where we don’t really know sexuality you don’t. You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a ceo level. Uh, they have to pick the ceo if it’s another level? Certainly if it’s achieve opening office of chief financial officer it’s totally appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them. The finer who’s a better vet culture that’s line. Okay, but on a ceo though you are make it clear that the board is making the decision and i would not have staff involved on interviewing until all right. So who are they meeting that in thiss day when they’re going to visit the visit the site? Well, so many have gone to the search committee. Obviously, there is no one else to meet except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the ceo, which is what? We are way wrong that once a search committee has made decision before on offers made it’s what the search committee wants to do doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wantto search committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board and in many cases, and i will advise us is have that final ceo or in the case where this too close candidates committed meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants don’t waste the time of having to feel you have to bring a second one and you give it someone hope when is when they’re not probably going to be selected but i have an interesting story, tony, that you listen. May one here, uh, about a year ago we did a search for a ceo and the search committee had him ranked wanted to have this ah, woman rank one in a guy number two. And i had agreed with that recommendation thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate and some things came up in discussions. Then i think at the end of day they made the right decision. So don’t forget the board has a final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee xero recommended candidates, but do not hire a ceo from a search committee on ly they must meet the entire board. Have you ever heard of co ceos? Yeah, i have and i found it never. Well, couple times it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions, so both people take on the role of co ceo won, they have responsibility for maybe certain geography one than another o once focus more on one thing before not tow have it. I think coz ceos is like koh board chairs. It doesn’t make a feeling that anybody’s really in charge. Um, i’m working with an organization right now out in california because we do certainly national searches as well as in canada and, you know, there’s a transition going on and is this it the heart organization? It’s important to know who’s in charge? So if it has to happen and you’re particularly the merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally it sooner than later. It’s only a transition. You can’t have a co ceo doesn’t work. I’ve seen coach, chief development officer and it doesn’t work either. I mean, i think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion. Okay, way explored co ceos with jean takagi, so if anyone wants teo, get more on that. That was the main nineteenth twenty seventeen show with jean ok, alright, we, uh we it’s time to negotiate an offer we were ah, we’ve selected our top one you like guards, guidestar they have i don’t know if you mentioned i know them. Guide star has a has a good salary guide comes out every year. So it’s it’s current but you have other studies that you like? Yeah, a couple of things we have a good sense of what the marketplaces like different geography, maybe waken use guide star and i i like the organization well, but here’s the palm and it’s not guide, says the bomb is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest, complicated employees? It’s probably two years old, even if it says two thousand sixteen and you’re in seventeen, it may have been, you know well, about a june of two thousand fifteen, so i don’t rely upon that nestle as a guide for making offer. I know what the organization is looking to pay. I know what what the sally is. People that are looking and then we i advise uh, i’m involved in every ceo, so i advise my client is what i think it’s going to take to get the person i’ve seen clients do salary surveys using geiser and other things that committee from other compensations raised there’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that, you don’t know, uh, what the performance of the organization has been you don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what, how well they’ve done with fund-raising, you know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So on one of the advantages of a search for meditation now based upon the work they’re doing what what the rate is to attract some money and that’s kind of what we do. Okay, let’s, spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you know, you just got it by the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book, but i want to spend last couple minutes, just about two minutes or so on on onboarding this’s a board responsive board responsibility. Well, it’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to ceos, i mean half of them have never been on border. So what does? What does he mean by sort of onboarding candidate? Well, uh, our onboarding onboarding if you don’t get onboarding you get hired and then you start and then you go geez, i don’t know this is the way itwas, you know, you’re not supported in your new job. So dahna whatyou onboarding were first to the idea of preparing a ceo to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components of the new role and or to the board here, really very important that i be some type of onboarding process um, so as example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about what onboarding here is, um, let’s be clear. So both the board and the ceo and again, you could say the same thing about a ceo or cfo. What she development altum same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly that’s gonna come up during entry puss, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair want to communicate to the ceo? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other friday did they want emails or not emails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the ceo to accomplish in the first thirty days or sixty days, or maybe one hundred eighty days? Uh, what the cultural issues or financial is that the organization is facing, um, what senior members of the team may have some performances the watch out for who had the key stakeholders outside the organization like donors of all tears that you want to see how to make sure that building wishes, perhaps maybe with a local congress person or a member of the senate assembly here. Dennis, we’ve got to leave it there. There’s too much. All right, keep a melissa. Thank you, tony, for this. I appreciate you and all your happy holiday season and the great thank you so much, dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. You’ll find it at dennis c miller dot com and you’ll find him at dennis c miller next week. Happy new year. There is no live show affiliate listeners. You are covered. Of course we’re going to replay zombie. Loyalists. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, slam sam, sam the slam liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein of brooklyn’s. Thank you for that information, scotty with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for December 15, 2017: Zombie Loyalists

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My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Zombie Loyalists

Peter Shankman

Peter Shankman is a well-known and often-quoted social media, marketing and public relations strategist. His book is “Zombie Loyalists.” He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and lots of valuable stories. I like to play this each December. (Originally broadcast 12/19/14)

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on the aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into kenna mortal phobia if you told me zombies caused you to miss today’s show zombie loyalists peter shankman is a well known and, uh, often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His book is zombie loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and pr for you he’s got super ideas and lots of valuable stories i’d like to play this each december, and it was originally aired on december nineteenth twenty fourteen authorities take to the estate tax and planned e-giving we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com, you’re not a business you’re non-profit apple it’s accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us here’s the first bit of peter shankman and zombie loyalists. I’m very glad peter shankman is with me in the studio. He is the founder of haro help a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment, hora was sending out fifteen hundred media queries a week to more than two hundred thousand sources worldwide. It was acquired by vocus in two thousand ten he’s, the founder and ceo of the geek factory, a boutique social media marketing and pr strategy firm in new york city, peter is on nasa’s civilian advisory council. You’ll find him at shanklin dot com and he’s at peter shankman on twitter. His latest book is zombie loyalists using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to non-profit radio and the studio welcome peter, get to be here, honey. Thanks. Pleasure. You live on the west side of manhattan. And you and you there’s a there’s. A pretty well known five star steakhouse. I’ll get wolfgang’s not far from you know, but you pass it to go to a different steakhouse, right? Morton’s? Correct. Why is that more? I’m a zombie loyalist importance. What does that mean? I love the service. The attention to detail the quality the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality when i walk into that mourns or any mortons around the world, they have a tremendous custom relationship management system. When i call one number ah, in new york or anywhere in the world, it they know who i am by my cell phone. And i’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal. Uh, happiness toe here for me. And my wishes are granted is aware, and we have any happy hour holiday party coming up at morton’s next couple days. And, you know, as always, i forgot to call and make a reservation. You know, i called yesterday and said, hey, i need a and she has to get a reservation for seven people. Dahna you know, there’s a night at, uh, seven p m, which is, you know, the week of holiday play, and they looked and they said, oh, well, and then i guess their computer system kicked in. Of course, mr chang is not a problem. I’ll get the fire anyway, you know how it will have a great booth for you that, you know, and we’ll tell us names the people attending and you know, you know, you know, they’re going to specialize menus for them and their names on they really they have ah, really high level of service that they provide not just to me that’s the beauty of it, you know, it’s one thing for everybody, yeah, it’s one thing, if they do was provided to me, but they do that for everyone, and that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation and not that i’m special, i’m actually rather abnormal. But what a normal person makes a reservation and says, no more tests, okay, greater. You celebrating anything so, yeah, it’s, my wife’s birthday waiting always ask after anyone said, oh, you know what? It’s, my wife’s birthday great what’s her name and her name’s. Megan, whatever. And you go in and they and you sit down on the on the menu, it says happy, but they make it, and then megan, whoever she happens to be well in the next forty five minutes, you know, taking fifty selfies with her menu and that’ll go online and when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re going to go morton’s you say in the book you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s. Why? I want to start with that morton’s story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody. And then they have the vips as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story that’s a good story, but it’s a good story. Love stories. I was flying home from a day trip to florida and was exhausted and starving and they trip meaning you’re flying down a canoe down to six a m lunch meeting flew back same day. You know, one of those one of those days and ah, i jokingly said the tweet hey, morton’s. What? You meet me at newark airport when i land with a porterhouse in two hours. Ha ha ha ha ha! Um, you know, i said it the same way you’d say winter. Please stop snowing things like that. And i landed find my driver and said, next, my driver is a is ah, waiter in a tuxedo with the mortons back. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a a steak and and, you know, as great of a story is that is that’s, that’s, it’s a great stunt and it’s a great story, and it wasn’t staged. It was completely amazing, but, you know, that’s not what they’re about, they’re not about delivering steaks to airports, they’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in and, you know, if they just did that, if they just deliver the stake, the airport, but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story, you know, you know what they did for peter, but, you know, my steak’s cold, you know? So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings and that’s that’s really, really important because, well, why is it happening to have a great experience of morton’s? And then you tell the world, you know, oh, yeah, great dinner last night, that was amazing, i would totally there again. And as we moved to this new world where, you know, review sites are going away and i don’t, i don’t need to go to yelp reviews and people i don’t know, and you know, if they’re shills, whatever the case may be, i don’t know or trip advisor, same thing i want people in my network who i trust and people in their network who they trust, then by default, i trust so and that’s going to that’s already happening automatically, you know, when i when i land in l a and i type in steakhouse, you know, not me, i know, i know where the steak house on telly, but if someone typed into google maps or facebook steak house in los angeles, you know they’ll see all the state houses on google map, but if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive will they see those first and that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting out of photo oh my god, thanks so much more in love this that’s positive sentiment, that network knows that. And so if you’re looking for a steakhouse, you know, and your friend six months ago had that experience oh, my god, amazing state this great place the sentiment will be there on dh. The network will know that that we will show you that steakhouse because you trust your friend. And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exactly is through this awesome customer service of the customers. You you have say more about something. Yeah. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer. You know, you see all the ads, you know, the facebook post, you know, we’re at nine hundred ninety, followers are ten are one thousand follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s current saying screw you to the original nine hundred ninety followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that one thousand you know, that’s. Not cool. The the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase in there. There. Ah, revenues go up are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know customer fifty two. It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How do you know? How are you? We notice that you posted on something about a you know, your car broke down? Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but you know, you’re you’re two blocks from our our closest, ah, out loud or whatever and, you know, once if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee, will you use the phone? Whatever, you know, those little things that you could do that, that that really focus on the customers you haven’t make the customers you have the ones where the zombies who tell other customers have great your and this all applies to non-profits certainly as well the question, but even more so yeah, i mean, if you know non-profits constant worry about howto make the most value out of their dollar on how to keep the dollar stretching further and further. And, you know, you have this massive audience who has come to you, who’s a non-profit who said to you, you know, we want to help here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve, not just a simple hey, thanks for doing it, but actually reaching out, asking what theywant asking how they like to get the information, things like that will greatly increase your donations as well as making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are letting them to your p r for you and that’s what a zombie loyalist does and this is for this could be donors could be volunteers in the organization who aren’t able to give a lot, but giving time is enormous. And if you know if they have such a great time doing it, they’ll bring friends as as zombies do. You know zombies have one purpose in life? A real zombies have one purpose in life. That’s defeat it doesn’t matter how the mets are doing, it doesn’t matter, you know, because chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how how anyone’s doing you know, what’s going on in the world economy, it doesn’t matter what matters was zombie is where they get their next meal because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise they will die zombie loyalist to the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their custom, they tell the world we all have that friend who does it, you know. That one friend who eats eat nothing but the olive garden because, oh, my gods! Greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know, and they will drag your ass the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie loyalist. And you want them to do that for your non-profit and there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. It could be so much more high touch. And we’re gonna talk about all that. We got the full hour with peter shankman. Gotta go away for a couple minutes. Stay with us, it’s. Time for a break. Pursuant they’ve got a webinar replay for you. It is proven stewardship strategies very timely because lots of people are giving to you this a month. So how do you keep them giving next year? And in twenty nineteen et cetera? You know how costly it is to lose donors and have to replace them? Nationwide dahna attrition you’ve heard guests say it it’s around seventy five percent each year, which is crazy. I’ve had guests trying to help you with that. Hopefully, your numbers are below the annual average, the nationwide average. Keep your donors you after year with a strong stewardship program that’s what this webinar is all about stewardship strategies rachel and cathy give you examples of top thank you’s they talk about automation without sacrificing personalization and they have free templates for you to use. The webinar is proven stewardship strategies it’s at tony dahna slash pursuant capital p now back to peter shankman and zombie loyalists. Peter, it doesn’t take much, teo stand out in the customer service world doesn’t really doesn’t, you know, and the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, if you think about that book, i love this example, whenever i give speeches, i asked, i asked you in the audience and like, who here has had a great flight recently, like at least one personal raise their hand? Ok, what made it great and without fail there? And well, we took off on time and i had the cd was a sign and we landed on time and like, so you paid for a service, they delivered that service, and you’re over the freaking moon about it, like that’s the state that we’ve become, you know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were going to win, nothing more less than twenty minutes in the post office line exam, and i’m ecstatic exactly, you know it it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above krauz i’m not even asking my client to be good, just one level of crap, you know, if everyone else’s crap and your one level above that, you’re going to win my favorite. My favorite jokes, thie two guys are out in the woods, hunting in the woods and the just jog. It was the first one sees a bear, and they see this barren bears raised up he’s about to strike, and the first one reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes and it was the studio don’t be, don’t be needy, you can’t outrun a bear and just kind of need to understand how wrong you know, i love that joke because it’s it’s so true that’s the concept, you know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else, and you’ll win the whole ball game. Now we have to set some things up internally in orderto have the structure in place, no question about it to create the zombie loyalists. Yeah, i mean, you haven’t. You have. Ah, company, where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm, you know? I mean, lookit, lookit a cellphone companies, you know, they call them cause you have a problem, right? T or t mobile. You call them your problem? They’re actually the customer service. We’ll handle your caller actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they could get you off the phone. You know, not on whether or not the fix your problem fast, but how fast they could get you off the phone. Which means how many more calls get everybody worked when i worked in america online, we all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But, you know, again, it’s just it was a system called vantage for you to sign on. And as soon as you signed on, if you want to call, you know, that was tacked. Against you, if you’re in a call and it went over a certain amount of time that was tacked against you, so the decks were stacked not in the favor, the customer. There are some companies out there who allowed there customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they dio and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. You know, my favorite story about this verizon wireless? I went overseas, i was in dubai and i landed two buy-in i’m turning my phone had gotten global roaming on my phone, which, you know, twenty bucks for every hundred megabytes. Okay, so i land and i turn on my phone and it says, like, before i’m even off the plane, i get a text that you’ve used two hundred dollars in roaming charges. What the hell, you know, three hundred dollars by turning it off the planet. We’re something’s up here, so i called horizon on a nice guy answer the phone and oh, yeah, i mean, you know, the first thing that was yes, sir, you do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in dubai. Okay, well, that’s not really global that’s. More hemispherical roaming, i think, is the issue, and so i said, well, look, i’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card, bill me like cubine bilich a thousand bucks and you let me have the phone for, like, a week and you know that, you know, five hundred hours i won’t go over to gigs would just do something for me. Sorry, sir, i’m not authorized to do that. You can look. So what i have is well, you can pay twenty dollars and forty eight cents a megabyte. I’m like i’m sorry. Seriously, which equates essentially too. I will be charged. Twenty thousand forty eight seconds, three thousand forty eight cents for every i think the times for every four seconds of the video gangnam style if i would decide to watch my phone like this is pretty ridiculous. So i simply hung up. I’m hung up on your eyes and i went down the street to the dubai, the mall of the emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, is a freaking ski slope in that, and i’m not joking and as a ski slope in this mall and went to one of like the eighty six different electronic stores in this mall. I bought an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone. I have went next door to the local sim card store, but, eh, sim card that gave me twenty gigabytes of data and a thousand minutes of talk for forty dollars. I then put that in my phone because i it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for google and everything imported. And verizon did not get a penny on that trip. How easy would have been from horizon to say. Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake. They still make a lot of money off me. And i would tell the world how great verizon wants to work with and how wonderfully, how helpful they were. Instead, they guaranteed that i will never. They will never make a penny from any international trip. And i take what? Fifteen of them a year? Because now my cell phone, um, my international cell phone that i bought all i do is pop out the sim card on my land, wherever i am putting a new sim card so and you’re speaking and writing and telling that story boards and then rittereiser and every time i tell the story about variety, i make it a little worse. Apparently verizon tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them kittens. I read this and, you know, it must be, you know, not necessarily, but you know, the concept that that all they had to do all the energy was in power mark right now, and it wasn’t mark’s fault. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would get fired if you try to do a deal like that for me and so it’s this concept, you know, and the funny thing is it comes down if you really want to go go down the road in terms of a public company like verizon of where the issue is, you could even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company’s ceo all the way down the employees to make money for the shareholders future responsibly means by not allowing me and they don’t allow a mark the customer service agent to to help me on dh take a different tack is actually losing money. Too many ceos think about the next quarter oh, we have to make our number six quarter. I’m fired companies and other countries to anything with next quarter century, and they make a much bigger difference because he okay, what can we do now that we’ll have impact the next five, ten, fifteen years? You know, and really implement the revenue that we have and an augment and cos america don’t don’t think about that. That’s a big problem i’d buy a product line has a lot of natural and recycled materials seventh generation and their their tagline is that in in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an american indian, it’s great it’s a great line. I mean, just think about how much money horizon would have made for me in the past three years over just just my overseas you’d be telling a story about like them, about morten, like the one about things? Look, a lot of people listen to me and they went for a time when you googled roaming charges variety when you google verizon roaming charges my story about, however, how i saved all this money really big came up first because i did the math, and if i had not called mark and bought my own cell phone and done this time, i would have come home with thirty one thousand dollars cellphone bill and your damn authorizing one damn thing about that is we’re like up to bad start with fine print and plus the employee who sold you the quote international plan, right? I’m sure you told her, didn’t she said, where you going? I’m going to canada and i’m going to dubai. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy wass she when we thought it was near canada, but yeah, long story short couldn’t use it. All right, so employees have to be empowered there’s to be we have to be, but changing a thinking too. I mean, the customer has to come first. The donor of the volunteers don’t volunteer. You get at the end of the day where’s your money coming from look, if you’re non-profit or fortune one hundred where’s, the money coming from, you know and if you we see it happening over and over again we’ve seen what you’re seeing right now play out every single day with company uber on uber it’s so funny because uber makes you know the value of forty billion dollars right now, but that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean anything if people are running away in droves, which people are there’s a whole? Delete your uber app movement that lord, no god, you people are doing what’s the problem well, it’s several number one, that uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, in on business in business insider, said he started the company get laid, his goal was to always of a black car when he was leaving a restaurant to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that, and you see that culture run rampant throughout uber from their god mode where they can see they actually create there was, ah, don’t read this, my business insider as well that they created a hookup page that showed or, ah, walk of shame page that showed where good women were leaving certain apartments like on weekends oneaccord believing certain place on weekends, going back to their home, it was obvious that they, you know, some guy, and i think they did that, and of course, just there their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was a couple of symbolism the terrorists, thinkers, harris attacking in sydney at that at that bakery, and sidney, uber and sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way, you know? And and they later refund it all was a computer glitch, i’m you know, i’m sorry you have a stop fun and you can when you see something happening like that, there has to be someone in the office because you know what? Not cool, we’re going to take care of that and hit the stop button, and it was, yeah, bad tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. You know, i was having an argument with one of my facebook page facebook dot com slash peter shankman because they said, oh, you know, so what? They don’t, they don’t turn surprising. I have enough cabs there and, you know, people can’t get home, i said, i’m pretty sure that the on ly come, but i’m sure that no one had cab companies there. I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars. They’re private cabs, uber’s, whatever yet the on ly stories i read about companies screwing up during the event where uber not joe’s sydney cab company you know, i didn’t see him staring up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing, you got it. You got to respect your customer after as we’re ah training for that then not only trying to change that mind ships well in in trying to change that mindset rewards for custom, for employees that do take go to go the extra mile. Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and understand they won’t get fired, you’re not going to get in try always to tell every one of my employees you never get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep a customer happy you’ll get fired for not doing it, you know you’re fired for, not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking doing everything that you could, you know, rich. Carl is famous for that rhys caldnear hires people not because whether they could fool the bedsheet but for how well they understand people. Because in wisconsin’s, mind it’s, much more important to be a people person and be able to be empathetic. And that it’s such a key word empathy is just so so sorely lacking. You know how much you’ve called customer service? Yeah. You know, i have to have to change my flight. Might my my aunt just died. I really dio ok. Great that’s. Three dollars. I just wanted one hour earlier. You know, you show up at the airport. Your bag is overweight by half a pound. That’s twenty five dollars. I just can you can you just cut me some slack, you know, so empathy and giving the custom, giving the employees the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes. And this is where a smaller organization has huge advantage. It’s. Easier to change. That’s. What kills me. You know, i go to these, try to frequent small businesses. When can i get you something? Small? Businesses and they won’t. They act. Like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they don’t have ah, like they want to be respected almost they don’t have, like, a sixty six thousand page code that they have to adhere to. They can simply ah, do something on the fly. And yet, for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And it’s the most frustrating famous and what guys, you’re acting like a big you act like mega lo mart here, you know, and you’re not mega lo mart, and you’re just joe’s house of stationary, whatever it is and, you know, not be able to help me, you’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have eighty five billion customers would come to the door after me, you know? But i have a pretty big network and for a small business, two get killed socially as social becomes more and more what how we communicate, you know, it’s, just craziness, it’s, you know, we’re pretty much in a world, i think, where something almost hasn’t happened to you unless unless you share it a joke that, you know, if i can take a selfie, was i really there but it’s true, you know we do. Live in a world where, you know, i remember god ten years ago, maybe not even not even ten years ago, i was one of the first people have a phone in my camera, you know? And it was like, running from that’s what i said, yeah, carry my phone, right? And it was like a i think a point, eight megapixels, you know, it looked like i was taking a picture with a potato, but it was it was thiss i remember it was two thousand two and i was in chase bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller, and i pulled out my video, you know, it was there the crappiest video you’ve received, i pulled out and i said, you know, i started recording and the one being the cat woman wasn’t the woman behind the counter was talking to the customs saying you do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the customers saying i just wanted my balance and you and your manager comes over. I get this whole thing on my little three g motorola phones phone and i remember i posted online and gawker picks it up. I gave him my e mail. You know, my headline, i put my blood was, you know, chase where the regulation ship is that go out yourself, you know? And it was it just got tons of play on gawker picked it up, it went everywhere, totally viral, it’s one of those things he was just like, you know, this is in two thousand two it’s twelve years later, how the hell can you assume that nothing is being with that you’re not being recorded? You know, i i and we’re blowing i sneezed a couple weeks ago and ah, ah, not to get too graphic here, but i needed a tissue big time after i was done sneezing, i’ve never going through my pockets, looking for desperate, looking for tissue, like looking around, making sure it wasn’t on cameras somewhere that someone didn’t grab that with hoexter viral sensation, you know? I mean, i went god, i went to high school with eight blocks from here, right? If the amount of cameras that aaron lincoln center today were there in nineteen, eighty nine, nineteen, ninety, i’d be having this conversation entirely i’d be having this conversation behind bulletproof for themself? Yeah, so, you know you’d be you’d be talking to you have to get special clearance to visit me. Pray be it the super max in colorado, you know, it’s one of those things that you just like my kid who’s who’s almost two years old now is going to grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And i’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves, you know? I mean, god, the things that i thought, you know, in in high school, i thought the stupid is in the world, thank god there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Thank god creating these zombie loyalists, and we’ve got to change some we’ve gotta change culture and thinking and reward zsystems let’s, go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors? I love i love this analogy and accufund analogy let’s open a bar and there’s, a very cute girl across the across the park and catch my eye catcher. I got to go. You know, you don’t know me. I’m amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home, let’s. Get it on. I’m impressed. I am that good chance. Are you gonna throw a drink in my face? Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this that’s probably now lets us sue let’s. Assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like you know, no boards with friendraising and she’s over there talking to friends, one of her friends. Holy crap! That’s peter. Peter shankman. I’ve heard him speak he’s in this fantasy world. I’m single too. He i think he’s single and he’s having this amazing guy. I know he has a cat. You haven’t. You should totally go talk to him. The very least i’m getting this girl’s number that’s pr. Okay. And what do we trust more me with my you know, fancy suit collar going over the seventies leaders in hi. I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, hey, we’ve been friends since their great i’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this, you know? Obviously, that that’s where good customer service comes into play and that’s where corporate culture comes into play because i have a great experience with you and at your company, i’m going to tell my friend when they’re looking, and i will stake my personal reputation, there’s nothing stronger than that. And these are the people who want to breed at zoho willis that’s stronger than advertising strong of the marketing and they’re going to share people want to share that think about the internet runs on two things it runs on drama, drama and bragging are bragging and drama and if you if you need any proof of that, you know, go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened, you know, bad customer service, bad, whatever, but then look at all the good hashtags you know, when our flight’s delayed for three hours and we’ll lose our seat. Oh my god, i hate this air land on the worst airline ever, but when we get upgraded, right hashtag first class bitches or whatever it is, you know it looks to me like that on the because we love to share it’s on ly a great experience. If we could tell the world and it’s only a bad experience, if we could make everyone else miserable about it as well. Need to take another break. Wagner. Sepa is they really do go way beyond the numbers they want you. They want you to know about these guides. The guides, they have many, many guides their help. You find your way through technical stuff. Break it down. Make it simple for you. Um, for example, ordered committee versus finance committee. If you’ve got these two committees, they’re different. What are the different roles and responsibilities? Um, this is one that hangs people up. You’ve heard me mention it before. Independent contractor versus employee checklist. Um, you don’t want to get snagged by your state department of labor or the federal, possibly department of labor and punch. Potentially be penalized. So i was talking about with tom. Was cell back-up early november. You want to do this right? Employees versus independent contractors, your disaster recovery plan. It sounds boring, but it’s important, if you have some kind of man made or natural disaster, where you going to go? How you going to run your non-profit business? How quickly can you be back-up serving people disaster recovery plan when he’s got something on that. Um, if your church church church internal audit plan, take a look at that bank statement review form. Take a look at that. All right again, wagner the going way beyond c p aying regular cps dot com click resource is then guides i plus software. You’ve heard me talk about this, the differences fund accounting that’s why you don’t want to be using quickbooks or microsoft or a p or turbo cash or something made for businesses fund accounting because you don’t want to miss spend money that has been given to you critical. Check him out. It’s apple owes accounting easy, affordable non-profit accounting non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony’s take two the state tax is lowering this or eliminating it going to hurt gif ts from the states ah, you’ll see it in my video. There is some evidence that when state taxes are low or we’ve had none in this country that it ah depress is charitable, giving the incentive isn’t there. People tend to give mohr to family, um, and reduce their reduce their giving to charities on dh. There are arguments on both sides. Um all right, so check out the video, you’ll well, i mean, i can’t be definitive, but i can’t talk about it on the video, and the video is at tony martignetti dot com talking about the state tax and whether it’s goingto hurt planned gif ts from estates and that is tony’s take two now back to peter shankman and zombie loyalists. Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are going to keep doing it, people will always share again. It goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and buy stuff, i could mean i mean anything from, like, a bad experience too, that content people not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you are. Yeah dahna you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? You know, after major disasters when company’s heir tweeting, you know, completely unrelated things after after random school. Shooting? No, it was after the shooting at the theatre in aurora, colorado, the dark knight, the tweets hey, shooter’s, what’s your plans for this weekend, you know, and i’m just going, really, you know, but of course the thing was the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with a sort of shame on the so we were society, like i said earlier, that loves to share when when great things happen once but love to tell the world when we’re miserable, because we’re only truly miserable when you make everyone else miserable. Arika it’s funny you mentioned, ah, generosity siri’s the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture, and somehow when you’re just doing your job because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job, but you don’t realize there are ways to get around that i i listened to your podcast, among others, when i’m running through central park on dh, more like if you know my body type more like lumbering through central park, but i get there, i’m in iron man have it and so i go to central park and it’s super early in the morning cause i usually have meetings and i dont run fast down. I run like i really dont run fast, but but as i’m running but let’s give you the credit that you have done a bunch of iron man, i have try that. The thing that i do, i do it. You know, my mother tells me that i just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports i should do. But on the flip side, i’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. I fall better than anyone, you know, but so i’m running through central park last year. It was february, february of thirteen and fourteen of this year and it was pretty fun for forty five in the morning because i had a an idiom meaning and had to ten miles. So four foot every morning running about but labbate around nineteen, seventy ninth eightieth street on the east side in the park and a cop pulls me over and i said, what you doing? Look at him, you know, i’m wearing black spandex. I have a hat, it’s five degrees. I don’t wantto playing checkers, you know? Well, you know, i’m like i’m running and he’s like, okay, can you stop running? I’m like, okay, you get the park’s closed. Look, i’m in it. Look around, there are other people who know part doesn’t open exam like he’s ago would you have any idea? And you’re like, no, i’m running, he does what you name? I’m like seriously, look, i’m writing you a summons i’m like you ready metoo sametz for exercising for i just want to clarify that you’re writing metoo and sure enough, the guy wrote me a summons for exercising in central park before it opened. That charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, i’m like i get the concept the curfew is to keep people out after two a m it’s not to prevent them going in early to exercise, to be healthy. I’m like, i’m not carrying, you know, a six pack, i’m not drinking a big gulp, i’m not smoking. I mean, i’m doing something healthy and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, i said, you know, i’m gonna have a field day with this. I said, i kind of have some fathers, there will be a lot of fun i’m not you know, i know you’re just doing your job, sir, even though you have the discretion not to, but okay, so i go back home, take a picture, might take it, email it to a friend of mine in new york post front page, new york post next day. No running from this ticket, you know. In your times covered it, runner’s world covered. I mean, i went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know? And my whole thing was just like, dude, you have discretion. Look at me, you know, i’m not i’m not even going super fast for god’s sake. I’m just just trying to exercise here, you know? And of course i went to court and i beat it. But how much money that cost the city for me to go to court fight this thing? You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion, of power, of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen. And again, small shops so much easier to do. Yeah, flatline flat organizations. I work with a non-profit animal rescue non-profit a friend of mine was a skydiver and shut him out. But i can’t but there’s a friend of mine scott ever and she was killed in a base jump several years ago, and her husband asked to donate in her memory to this non-profit so i sent him a check. And about three months later, i get a coffee table book in the mail and i was living by myself the time i didn’t own a coffee table. It was you no more money to spend on my flatscreen and i ah, remember, i call i look at this coffee table guy throw i throw in the corner, i look at it over next couple days, it pisses me off about how much, how much of my donation did it cost to print? Melon produced this book to me, and so i called them up. Well, sure, we believe most of our donors are older and pry prefer to get a print version as opposed to, like digital, you know, where they throw it away like you don’t throw digitally, but okay, i’m like so so you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys in, you’ve asked all you know, we just assume the most number older i’m like, i open my mouth one of joining the board and spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor-centric get their information and shock pre-tax ninety four percent said online, and so over the following year, we launched facebook page, twitter, page zoho flicker account, youtube everything p s the following year for that donations went up thirty seven percent in one year in that economies, right ran away tonight, donations went up thirty seven percent in one year, and they saved over five hundred thousand dollars in printing malian reproduction. Imagine going your boss boss revenues up thirty seven percent and we save the half million dollars in boston about your really good beer. You know, all they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they want. We have tons of tools for segment. My god, you’ve gotta listen to what segment you want people want to be, you know, someone? Someone asked me today. You know what, what’s the best way i knew nothing about their company what’s the best social media left me to be on should be on twitter shevawn facebook i said, i’ll answer that question if you can answer this this this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese gouda or the number six they said, i understand that’s not a real question like neither is yours like i can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience. Can i said, go ask your audience, believe me, they will tell you, there’s a gas station, the midwest come and go. I just love the name kumo, angio and their tag around. But you can read more about the tagline is always something extra. I mean, come on the jokes just write themselves for god’s sake, but they don’t take themselves too seriously love that. Come on ghost knowing the name of the company gas station and, you know, i remember there in iowa and i went to visit a friend in iowa, and i was like, you’ve got to get a photo of you in front of coming goes on, and the beauty of this is that and some of their employees actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones. We start to go, you know what? Use twenty more facebook and they say, oh, you and they record the information and they know it customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel invested, they feel invest in your company, they feel like they that you took the time to listen to their non-profit requests of their their their questions, and they feel like they’re nufer harrow every month we have a one question harrow survey, you know, heroin question survey, and it was we get like a thousand people responded spend entire weekend emailing everyone responded, thanking them personally and touchpoint hyre weekend, but it was great because we’ll wind up happening is that? You know, if we took their advice and launch it on monday with the new thing, they oh, my god, how did this? They took my advice. Yeah was your advice to a hundred other people advice, but we took it and they don’t like it and it just it just made them so much more loyal, and they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get in. There were days i got there days where i was in temple one morning, the garment center, synagogue and my phone. I feel like phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal, and i’m starting her on i look at it it’s almost on fire. It had frozen because we were mentioned in seth gordon’s morning blogged. Oh, and at that time i was getting emails every time we get a new subscriber and the phone actually frozen and was locked and and was, like overheating i t at the battery and, like, reset the entire phone because we’ve got so many new fourteen thousand subscribers in, like, three hours scene obscene, you say excuse me, you say that customer service is the new advertising, marketing and pr? Yeah, it really is. Well, again, you know, if we’re moving to that world where so imagine a lot of limp and i love that i can use this. Now imagine a lot of land latto lamb has water, oil and a heat source, right heat source heats the oil, the oil flows with water, it makes pretty colors i’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high now i’ve heard. Now imagine if crystal’s imagine if you’re, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay, is a drop of oil. The water is your network and what is your world? Everyone you meet in your network from from the guy you’re sitting doing the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice cream with local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife to not same time to your kids. Second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, you know, right now, when facebook for started, i would see the same weight from a kid. It was junior high school his posted on the same weight as like my current girlfriend, which is ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything my friend from junior high school’s doing, having talked to kate in fifteen years, his face was getting a lot smarter, as has google. Now i see the people labbate kate with the most okay. And if i if i reach out to communicate with new people, they start rising and my feet in my stream if i don’t, they fall it’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil that heat source at the bottom that’s rising, raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So imagine the heat sources relevance and the more i interact with someone, the more the higher they go in my network in the more i see of them, the more trust level there is when i’m at a bar and i meet someone at a restaurant unconference i meet someone i don’t need to, um connect them. I don’t need to go on facebook friend request, you know, awkward friend requesting is when you seven think that lesson my friend requested some of the real world with second grade will you be my friend? My daughter is doing that because, you know it’s like cat will you be my friend? Kind of the captain will be here, but, you know it’s, this awkward thing who the hell friendly west someone if i find hang out with you, the bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out to dinner and we’re having a good time with friends. I don’t need to first request that you, you know, that’s going away, friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if i meet with you and i have a good time with you and we talk again, if i use your business if i go to your non-profit if i donate if i volunteer, whatever the network knows that the more i do that the more interact. With you, the more you have the right to market to me and the more you will be at the top of my stream in the more i will see information about you, the less i will have tio search for you. But if you do something stupid or we’re no longer friends xero you’re going to fade. I don’t unfriend you just disappear. Unfriending is also dated a woman we broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. There was one from the other one because it’s just awkward zoho kapin friend of me. But you know the causes of not having to do that of just, you know, okay, i haven’t talked in a while. I don’t see your post anymore. The real world that’s how it should be and if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, yes, they can start to defect. No question about it. I wanted to spend a little time on if you’re not reading now you are talking to them, giving them what they want, talking about their information, helping them out. They will gladly go somewhere else with someone who is, you know, if i have a great experience of the restaurant every week for three years, and then all of a sudden, over time, of noticing less and less that restaurant’s doing less and less tio, take care of me, you know, and maybe management’s change, and i don’t feel that, you know, i’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else comes to, you know, peter, because if i tweet some like, wow can’t believe i have to wait forty minutes for a table that didn’t used to be like that. If if someone else a smart restaurant, they’re following me and they’re going great, you know, appears no, wait, no way over here. Why don’t you come to blocks north? We’ll give you a free drink, you know, you know, and that right there that’s first sign of infection and i might become infected by another by another company because mommy little us for them and so let’s take you have a lot of good examples. Let’s, take a one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing following your customers, understanding when they’re not happy and fixing the situation before it escalates, you can contain a small outbreak a small outbreaks. Well, viral outbreak. You can contain that by getting the right people. Finding out what the problem is getting them to one room, fixing their problem, healing them. You have a good united story right back. When was continental? I was a frequent flyer and booked a trip to paris. Andi, i was very angry because they charged me four hundred dollars, looking for you. I remember what it was and that i called the ceo just just for the hell of it. I’m like i’m going. I wrote a letter or an e mail. So this is before social, right friend wrote an email, the ceo and like this ridiculous. I’m freaking fired-up like three months later, my phone rings hello, peter, please hold for larry kellman, ceo of coming little and i’m like, oh, crap, you know? And i got your telephone he’s like peter hated misjudgment e-giving started these fees of their new way. We sent that note. I’m getting it and see it. We’re gonna weigh them for you. But if you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me and end of the phone the next forty minutes. What is staring at it like, holy crap? Larry kellner, the ceo of united airlines, just called me and talk to me and it was like, it was like, god coming down and say, you now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous and so, you know, i have been faithful to continental and now united ever since on dh they continue to treat me with respect and do great things, and they’re they’re improving. They were getting a lot of crap over the past several years and that there really are starting to improve its nice to say, and not only, of course, your own loyalty, but you’re oh, my god, how zombie loyalist for them and how many times how much it’s unquote fired-up latto bradrick attract so many friends to united? I’ve made so many friends. I mean my father, you know, he only fleshing out it now, which means he only drag. He dragged my mom on the internet and i only drink my wife. You know, there’s a lot of lot of work that way we gotta go away for a couple of minutes when we come back. Of course. Peter and i’m going to keep talking about his book comes out in january. Zombie loyalists got to take a break. Tell us credit card and payment processing it’s passive residual revenue for you pays you each month. If you become one of their non-profit partners, you will get fifty percent of every dollar that tello’s urns from the businesses that you refer. And how do you do that? You think about the businesses that air that are already supporting you, whether it’s something local or something bigger that supporting you, is it possible for them to switch their credit card payment processing? I guess odds are it’s going to be something local? Smaller business is going to have a lot more control over who processes their credit card payments. Think of businesses owned by your board. Think of businesses down the street, you know, in the neighborhood family businesses. If they’re taking credit cards, they could potentially be a referral from you to tell us. And remember that special non-profit radio offer that that tell us has if teller’s can’t save them money, you are going to get two hundred fifty dollars a gift to you from tell us. If tellers can’t help them, so make those merchant referrals think about the business is that are that are supporting you that air in your community that take credit cards, it’s like every business. Um, those can all be potential referrals. Tell those payment processing, tony dahna may slash tony tell us now, back to peter shankman and his book zombie loyalists. You have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes netflix they’re both they’re both in the book so it’s so one leaving, if you know if you know, start the cure one leaving, yeah, and then that’s the thing you know, the little experience, maybe the internet with the hashtag everything like that, you know, it doesn’t take a long time for those things to sort of blow up in your face and, you know, the other day, everyone say, oh, you know, twitter’s responsible for for us losing another, you’re responsible for you losing? Yeah, yeah, and if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are, then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was all social media is really hurting. I know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know. Yeah, they’re just telling the story. Dominoes and netflix are good examples. They bounce back, they took responsibility and yeah, they both owned dominoes came out and said, you know what? You’re right, our pizza and we do have a problem. We’re going to fix this and they spent millions fixing it, and sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now i may or may not even ordered the maroons in awhile, and i live in your city that’s, that’s a that’s, a sacrilege. But, you know, i have the app on my phone from oversea no traveling, somewhere being should bring or whatever and you know what? Do you get it? Eleven thirty at night when your flight’s delayed me landed dahna um, which reminds me i should go exercise on flip side looked so much like netflix. They they also were screwed up, you know, they were losing that trial switch between the two. They came up with a new name and it was so gross and public. Oh, man again, you’re watching the same thing happen with uber right now, so we really need to see if they’re able to repair themselves. Listening is important, but both those both those two examples they’d listen to their customers think there’s a problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, listen, listen, listen, for months and years and years and years now, but you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listening to listen actually follow-up you know, it’s one thing to listen, you know, i used to have my wife, i could sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But i don’t actually say anything back she’s just smack me, you know, and go to the other room, and so you really have to it’s a two way street, you know, listening is great but can’t respond and look, i think further, and i was like, oh, twitter, so great, because someone was complaining on twitter and we went online, we we’ve saw the complaint that we fixed their problem in yes, how about if the problem that exist in the first place, you know? Because the great thing about twitter is that, yeah, people complain on twitter the bad thing about it is there complaining about you on twitter so it’s like what if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if? What if you empowered your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that i didn’t have to tweet hurts is my favorite story of all this i used to rent from her it’s religiously, and then i went to aa phoenix sky harbor airport has past april and i gave it i was giving a speech and go on my name’s supposed be on the board, you know, second grade that car and it wasn’t okay. What happened? I’m going upstairs. I weighed forty minutes on the v i p line after forty minutes they finally say, you know there’s a on ly one guy here a lot of people might have better chance we go in the regular line. Okay? Probably told us that a little earlier in the regular spend forty five minutes waiting the regular line it’s now been are you tweeting while this is happening? Well, i had to know i was actually not only tweeting i don’t have time to create a mean that should give you some idea. Of how long i was online with myself on those over, even if that means i get to the counter. How i can help you. Yeah, i was downstairs. The vp doesn’t tell me. Owe you have the appearance of asian intern upstairs? Like yeah. Ok. Let’s, let’s put a pin in that. They just sent me up here. Like, right. They have to help you. Well, it’s. Not really. They you guys for the same company. I mean, i could see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry, sir. I can’t help. You have to go to the next. Like you just next to me. Okay. So if you know anything about sky harbor airport in phoenix, all of the rental car coming through on the same place. Yeah. So i walked fifty feet. It’s a bus takes you to the big a big a civilian where they’re all next week. I walked fifty feet from the cesspool of filth. Depravity that was hurts to the wonderful zen garden of tranquility that was avis and inform, innit? And i had a nicer, cheaper, more nicer, less expensive car given to a woman named phyllis who? Was sixty six and moved to phoenix from detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me she smiled at me, she brought her manager out and said that’s, another refugee from hertz, and i said, this happens a lot. They’re like, yeah, i’m like, well, you think they have done something about it and so on the way out in avis, i thank them. I walk past her, so i shoot on this, you know, sort of look at the look of the beast. I get my avis carnage at my hotel wanted to tel. I write a wonderful block post about my experience, called peter, and hurts in the terrible, horrible nobody could really bad customer experience. What you have a kid, you find rewriting titles about your blood post that have to do with kids books. I do not like hurts, sam, i am and and i included in this block post the five things i’d rather do than ever rent from hurts again. I think number three was was ah ride a razor blade bust through a lemon juice waterfall. With just, you know, and it’s a bit, but of course, the next day hurts reaches out to me. Oh, miss jay manuel, this is ahead of north american customer service that’s all you’re back, i’m like like, you know, we’d love to have make no like you’re not going to fix the problem. Number one seven avis car. I’m never going back to her it’s number two through a five people yesterday, five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me is a customer for life, a customer who have been so happy and i would have loved you five people blew it, so don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to know what you want to do is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens, because five people, it takes every single employee to keep her company running. It takes one to kill it. Yeah, p s avis reached out to thank me personally. And i am now just this ridiculously huge loyal fan of avis. And always will be. You have a pretty touching story, but when you worked in a yogurt shop, you’re really young. We have a couple minutes tell it tell it could stay that was in the east side, which again, is yet another reason why i live on the west side. Nothing good ever happens in manhattan’s east side, so i was i was working and i can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that i think back in the i c b y no, no t c b y was the country’s best yogurt the countries i c b i why was a poor i can’t believe that you can’t believe is that your family was yogurt was a poor attempt to capitalize on his teamviewer working in this store, and i go in every day and make thee over to clean the floors. I do, you know, a typical high school job, and it was during the summer and houses people walking by things like second avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hyung from you know there was awning, right? That’s elearning that there and then the brass poles that held the awning. Up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And i found i found some brass polish in the back with all the beer in the back and went after anyone outside. And i’m positive polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls are shiny, people saw them, maybe they come in the store, maybe they’d want toe, you know, buy more screenplays and the manager came out, what the hell you doing? Told him what i thought. I’ll pay you to think inside, you know, like there’s. No customers in there. Okay, i’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast and i quit. I just quit that job. I mean, like, i couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, t own a franchise bring fifty grand to at least to buy that franchise. Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the police claim that might bring in more customers? What the hell, you know, but you’re not paid to think you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, i just i i encourage if any kids. Listening. Those teenagers. If you. If you boss says that to you, quit quit, i will hire you. Just quit it. Probably worse thing in the world that you could possibly do, because you have customers who you have customers who every day could be helped by people who are paid to think and that’s the one you want. We gotta wrap up, tell me what you love about the work you do. I get paid to talk. I mean, my god is the same stuff i use get trouble for in high school, but on a bigger picture, what i really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and haven’t come back to me. I run a series of masterminds called shank mines, business masterminds, shank minds, dot com there day long seminars around the country, and i had someone come to meet so, you know, i took your advice about x y z, and i started listening little more, and i just got the largest retainer client i’ve ever had in my life by a factor for she goes, and i just can’t even thank you never said gorgeous by-laws aki listselect kayman thank you enough. Oh, my god, being able to help people. You know, at the end of the day, we’re i’ve yet to find another planet suitable for life. I’m looking so we’re all in this together and if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people just little bit more? You know, there really isn’t a need to be as do she is as we are as a society, we could probably all be a little nice to each other, and you’d be surprised if it’ll help. The book is zombie loyalists, published by pal grave mcmillan comes out in january. You’ll find peter at shankman dot com, and on twitter at peter shankman. Peter, thank you so much. Thank you. Next week, dennis miller returns with a guide to hiring your next ceo. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant regular c p a’s, guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com stoploss accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing, you’re passive revenue stream tony dahna slash tony tello’s, a creative producers claire meyerhoff sam lever, which is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and the green heimans buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for December 8, 2017: Scale Up & Sustain

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Kathleen Kelly Janus: Scale Up & Sustain

It’s a question I hear often from nonprofit leaders: “How does my organization get to the next level?” Kathleen Kelly Janus’s research leads her to the answers and she shares them with you. Her new book is “Social Startup Success.”

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of knee or throw sis, if you gave me the false impression that you missed today’s show scale up and sustained it’s a question i here often from non-profit leaders. How does my organisation get to the next level? Kathleen kelly janice’s research leads her to the answers and she shares them with all of us her new book is social startup success on tony’s take two next month’s non-profit radio we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna i’m a slash pursuant and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com, you’re not a business. You’re non-profit at close accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome kathleen kelly janice to the show. She is a social entrepreneur, author and lecturer at stanford university. Her work in philanthropy millennia oppcoll millennial engagement and scaling early stage organizations has been featured in the wall street journal, huffington post, stanford social innovation review non-profit radio is there techcrunch and the san francisco chronicle. I’ve been in the wall street journal too, so you know she’s, the co founder of spark i haven’t cofounded anything that’s the largest network of millennial donors in the world. Her new book is social startup success. How the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference she’s at cake janice and i’m very glad and pleased. Thrilled that kathleen’s book brings her to non-profit radio. Welcome, kathleen kelly. Janice. Thank you so much for having me. Tony it’s, my it’s. My real pleasure. I am. I am anxious to talk to you about this book. As anxious as i was to read it because i do always get that question. How do we get to the next level? And i believe you have. I believe you have the answer. Answers, answers. I believe you can point us in the right direction. I hope so. Okay. Okay. I want i’m going to start with reading something. I’m actually gonna start with the conclusion of your book. Thiss paragraph. Just it struck me. So it says the journey. And we’re going to talk about your journey has made me even more keenly aware of how many non-profits are operating on a month to month basis, scrambling to raise money to sustain them. While so much innovation has occurred in the nonprofit world in recent decades, my conversations with organizational leaders and my observations of their daily routines have impressed upon me how considerable the challenges any non-profit faces are, no matter how innovative its model or impactful its services. What’s going on out there? Kathleen kelly jansen, janice well, i think you you really summed it up nicely. There. Those are your words, not mine. I just give you something up. I just i’m a copycat. What what’s happening is that we’re we’re on the one hand living in a philanthropic renaissance, it’s a really exciting time for non-profit innovation. So many incl, credible ideas are happening, and i’ve really had a front row seat here in the silicon valley watching so many non-profits capitalizing on a lot of the growth that we’ve seen in the tech industry as well, organizations like key by using crowd fending teo, be able teo support organizations in the developing world. And then, on the other hand, we have so many incredible ideas that are dying on the vine because organisations can’t get the financial support that they need to get to the next level to get to a level of sustainability, and i became really interested in this question myself. I was really, really curious. Why are some organizations succeeding and wire others really flailing? And it turns out that in fact, two thirds of non-profits in the united states are five hundred thousand dollars in below revenue, and many of these organizations should stay small, community based organizations and are feeling an important role in the non-profit community. But many of these organizations want to scale. They figured out a proven model that is working to support their beneficiaries. T help create a more just world, and they simply can’t get the capital they need to grow. And so might research really explores the foundations of success. What is it that organizations need to do in order to take that next step, and to grow their impact to the next level? You talk about the struggle to scale, which is essentially what you just said, even more eloquently. So? So? So let’s, we’re not gonna have time to go through the the entire book, you know, you’ve got five elements of what you think it takes toe scale and be sustainable, so i’m gonna i’m just gonna start with encouraging people. You just, you know, if you want to get to the next level, you just got to buy the book. I mean, non-profit radio is good as it is cannot substitute for this for this book. So all right, i may mention that a couple times, so why don’t you walk us through the five parts of what you believe, you know, your researches, you know, lead youto believe are the essential parts of what what’s needed? Sure. So there’s five strategies that i identify at that came up over and over again and one hundred interviews that i did around the country of organizations that have scaled past two million dollars and beyond and and that’s really the level that i define as a certain level of sustainability. And so the organizations that tend to scale really all exhibited these five strategies. So the first one is that they began testing their ideas very early on. And before they went out and raised money, they figured out some ways tow pilot it the programs so that they could figure out what was working at what was not about that by the time they went out to market, they had they had awesome impact to show and were able to get funded for that and b we’re able tio, then integrate a culture of innovation that helped them constantly improve their models as they grow. The second strategy is that these organizations that the organizations that tended to scale more quickly in a large survey that i did the survey results show that these organizations, we’re able to say that they began measuring impact from the very start from day one and that’s that makes sense because those are the organizations that were able to go out and tio show donors that they were having an impact. And but those are also the organizations that are able teo increase their impact by letting go of programs that aren’t working or tweaking them and making them better. So that impact measurement is really key and it’s, often something that organizations struggle with the third strategy is funding experimentation. And developing a plan to test both earned income sources as well as philanthropic income to figure out a funding model that works, and teo to be able to take the organization to scale there is no one size fits all sending model for nonprofit organizations. Every organization has to figure out what’s gonna work for them. And so putting some processes in place to test out different sources of income is going to be the best way for organizations to figure out what that is. The fourth strategy is developing a culture of collective leadership. I think we all have this tendency in today’s society, tio to revere the founder to put founders on the pedestal, whether it’s in the for-profit world with mark zuckerberg, the founder of facebook, or associating apple with steve jobs or even in the nonprofit world. And, you know, the quintessential example is mohammed yunus is is the founder of the grameen bank and won the nobel prize, and leaders should be honored. But at the same time, they’re the best organizations figure out that greatness is not built on one person it’s built on the backs of teamwork and the best organizations figure. Out how to bring in senior leadership early on so that founders can go out and spend time on fund-raising and strategy that they have really strong boards of directors that help help them grow their organization. And they flipped that hierarchical pyramid on its head and put the staff up front because they realize that they’re staff are the ones that are on the front lines making an impact and have the closest connections often to the beneficiaries is really the key to their work. The final strategy is storytelling with purpose. I think we all have a tendency to listen, teo a ted talk or ah, great political speech and think, wow, that person is just a natural. But when i went out and talked with all of these leaders, the best storytellers spend a lot of time practicing their craft. I had one social entrepreneur tell me that her she feels she’s an olympic athlete, and her olympics sport is storytelling and speech making, and because she could be speaking the word of god. But if it’s told in a boring way, then no one’s going to listen to her and these leaders figure out that organizations can have impact when they’re able to build a movement, and that comes with telling a good story and getting people on board and it’s not just that the leadership level is at every level of the organization because these organizations realized that staff members, board members, beneficiaries and champions can all be brand ambassadors for their organizations. And so they work hard. Teo help them with their storytelling so that everybody can go out and be champions for the cause of the five strategies. And to me, what was most exciting about this research is that i kept waiting for someone to say, you know, it’s, just charisma or grid or some sort of innate trait that makes an organization succeed or not. But no one said that on, and in fact it really came down. Teo thes strategies that any non-profit can implement, no matter what kind of resources they have at their fingertips. Kathleen, we had to take it’s time for a break. I wanted to do the overview. Hang with me while we take a break. Sounds great. Pursuant. The art and science of acquisition. That is their newest paper to help you bring in new donors paper covers strategies that work from successful acquisition campaigns you want to think of this as your campaign for new donors. Now i know this is fourth quarter, and you’re probably not devoted to acquisition. You’re more focused on ly bones and sideburns. Tryingto get those people back in and you’re and a renewal gift from your current donors for this year. So download it, check us out and keep it for next year’s acquisition work because it is it’s available now, you know that pursuing his data driven so research is going to be based on numbers, their research and what they have found is going to be most successful for you in your acquisition work, which metrics are most important for you to track? What is success look like et cetera. It’s not easy to bring in new donors let pursuing help you it’s, the art and science of acquisition, and it’s at tony dot m a slash pursuing capital. P in brovey okay, kathleen, i’m sorry. Thank you. Thanks for holding on their kapin. Okay. Excellent. I want to do some with our live listener love. Okay, kathleen, you are there, right? Yes. Absolutely. Ok, wonderful. I feel like doing the live lister love a little early. So let’s shout out to tampa, florida would ridge, new jersey woodbridge. So consistent with the listening i’ve some believe in. Would you please identify yourself? Woodbridge, newjersey, please come forward. I want to shout you out in person. Um, new york, new york, multiple new york, new york. We’ve got charlotte, north carolina live was naralo vago. And after charlotte and jersey city, new jersey my, my, uh my dad’s, my dad’s hometown, that’s, where he was born on mcadoo, half jersey city, new jersey live listeners love to you college station, texas is with us. So our germany good dog, seoul, south korea, on your haserot comes a ham nida mexico city. No! Yes, mexico city, mexico we’ve got multiple there. Good afternoon. Born a smart bona bona santa that zilly bonem start is is italy with us pornos era if you are, tehran is with us and took a result japan and the united kingdom live lesser love to each of you. We’re gonna divide it up today. The other two thirds are going to come a little later on all right. Kathleen. Now you don’t, you don’t like to go by katie or kate or cath or k. You’re strictly a kathleen girl. Is that right? That’s, my name kathleen. Okay, no, katie’s. Okay, okay. Um let’s, talk about your journeys i mentioned in when i read a little bit from the conclusion your parents were very active and promoted a spirit of giving when you were young. This is that seems to be the genesis of your interest in this hole in the whole sector. It was definitely an inspiration for me. I’m really lucky that i grew up in this amazing little small town and napa, california and my parents were very involved in the nonprofit sector. My dad was a community banker and my mom was a teacher, and they they served on dozens of non-profit boards throughout the year, so when i think about our weekends, we often spent time volunteering in soup kitchens or serving at the local medical clinic for low income workers, but our volunteer efforts and there we we sat around the dinner table and talked about how organizations often struggle. So my parents were talking about fundraisers they were hosting tio try and help support an organization that was struggling to get the resource is that needed to do that important service work. That’s what was where his thiss was actually this was dinner table conversation for you? Yeah. You know that that’s that’s ah that’s not comin right. I didn’t know any different. I know, i know. Yeah, but, you know, it’s, not it’s, not. I mean, i know you’ve realized that since then, but that’s a remarkable okay. I’m sorry. You know, that’s just that’s. Just remarkable, as i was reading about you having these conversations with your parents about sustainability, even though that word we weren’t using that word, but that’s what you were talking about? Well, yeah, and it’s. Not that my family was very sophisticated, it’s, just that they believed really strongly that there are people in our community who are not as fortunate as us and that it’s our duty to give back to those people. But that it’s not just about giving back teo, people who are less fortunate it’s about making sure that the organizations that are supporting them are strong so that they can provide those important social services. That something that was very much a part of my upbringing. Yeah. That’s outstanding, um and let’s. Now come to the research that lead you to the er to the overviewing that you gave us earlier. What was thea? Was the process for this lots of interviews? Yeah, so i really came at it because i had experienced this issue myself personally when i graduated from law school, i started my own small non-profit with a group of women and san francisco called spark, we engage young professionals and gender equality issues, and we also had this problem where we had a ton of buzz. In the beginning, we were growing our revenue every few months, doubling our annual budget, and then at a certain point, just when we were hitting our stride, we hit a wall and we couldn’t get the capital that we needed in the door to get to the next level and increases the impact that we wanted. So that was around the half a million dollar mark wasn’t it has a million dollars for us and for every for every non-profit it it could be different, but i have found that that half million dollar mark is a really critical st hump because it is a place that a lot of organizations struggled to get beyond that kind of like initial grant funding and initial seed capital to really get some more sustainable grant in the door. So to get back to your question about the process for me and when i began teaching social entrepreneurship at stanford wearing my research cap, i began looking at this question more critically. I developed survey and sent it out tio thousand organizations in the united states that were in some of the top social entrepreneurship portfolios, like echoing green and a show cow and school. And so i heard back from them, and i tested everything from, you know, was their social media better and helping them scale? Or was it there impact measurement in the way that they were measuring impact? And i came up with some initial findings that i went out and tested and got to go out and interview in person one hundred organization founders there they’re funders their beneficiaries, their staff, and really just asked them a key question, which is what is the secret to non-profit success and the findings they’re based on the stories that they told me in those interviews, the the parts that i wantto start to focus on is that that early stage you call it testing, testing ideas, i think of it is sort of you know, mastering as much as you can. The problem. Like trying to get your mind around what the problem is and testing solutions to it. Um, i is it okay if i describe it that way? Absolutely. What i found in my research is that the best social entrepreneurs fall in love with the problem, not the solution. Well, if there is a lot harder when you fall in love with that solution, teo, let it go even if it’s not working, but if we really focus on the problem, then you’re going to be a ble. Teo, figure out the best strategy to address the problem. You talk about ideation and brainstorming and not allowing any solutions to be censored at at the early stages. Yeah, and that’s you know that is that this human-centered design theory that has come up at stanford, at the d school or in various capacities? It’s really? Just a fancy way of talking about problem solving and a process for understanding how to brainstorm ideas, and it doesn’t really have to be fancy. I also do an example. An organization that i interviewed. It was wishbone, which is ah, crowdfunding site for low income kids who want teo have summer experiences in the arts are in fillmore and cooking helped them following their follow their dreams, and when the organization started, they didn’t start by launching this huge website in this platform and investing a lot of money, and then, you know, then find the kids, they did it the other way around. They did a really low cost test to figure out whether the model would work, so the founder was a teacher for low income students in los angeles at the time she assigned an essay to them and ask them to write about their passion. Then she took some of her favorite papers, and she photocopied them, and she stuck them in a male in the mail with a stamp and sent them to her relatives and her friends to say, would you fund these kids to be able to follow their passions in the summer? And she got a bunch of money from those people, and she was able to send them to summer camps and do internships and realize that there was really something there, and so it was really just this kind of low cost testing. In the beginning, that helped her figure out what worked and what didn’t and helped her develop an engine that she could then grow too scale and it is hard to to throw off solutions. I mean, you know, remove solutions, eliminate them, you know, you feel like you’ve got some resources devoted to it, but the outcomes are just not coming. It’s it’s hard to throw off, throw them off, though, and and started a family a lot of work to overcome that a lot of organizations get stuck in that cycle for two reasons. One is because it’s really hard, teo admit failure. So i think that’s a big problem in the sector is just getting more comfortable with failure, but because oftentimes sees these programs are doing important work and it’s not that they’re necessarily bad, maybe not the most impactful they be. I’ll tell you a story of one really successful example of this, an organization called last mile health founded in liberia. Tto help get help care for some of the poorest communities there, tio decrease their mortality rates had when it started thirteen different programs, everything from women’s health programs, tio aids programs helping patients with hiv aids as they started to grow, they realised that the program that was having the biggest impact was this program that was helping bring community based care to the rural areas of liberia, so there were no doctors there, there were people who had to walk, sometimes twelve, thirteen hours to get to the capital city on dh they had very few doctors serving millions of people, and so these community health care workers were able, teo give them the treatment that they needed, sometimes using cell phone service, teo get care remotely and as it turned out, because it was so successful, they decided they made a very hard decision of closing down all these other programs that were very good programs but just weren’t having that kind of level of impact they wanted to see. And when the ebola crisis hit in two thousand twelve, that was absolutely critical because they had focused their efforts on these community health care workers, those community health care workers were able to prevent it’s a global health crisis, so i can’t think of a better story, you know, that they really because they were able to focus their energy on a program that was working, they were ableto have massive impact, and so i think we all have to keep that kind of end goal in mind when we’re when we’re doing this, that it’s really about maximizing the potential of the impact that we can have and let’s talk about measuring that impact let’s start with the distinction between you’re outputs and your outcomes or your impact. Well, what i found is that a lot of organizations tend to to focus on the outcome on the on the outputs, those air, the vanity mac tricks that are very easy, tio t c so for example, how many people are participating in your programs or how many people are coming to your website to get social services but ultimately it’s not showing how the programs are having a change on their life, their long term outcome, it might even be something physical, like how many’s ah, backpack kits we put together for homeless outreach. Yeah, but then what is the home of the people do with them? And how did that change their lives? Great and does not change their lives? Thank you. Get out of homeless because it was really the ultimate goal, and so this is something that i think a lot of organizations struggle with because non-profit leaders are not data scientists, and sometimes it can be overwhelming to think about, like, how do you measure outcomes? How do you measure the ripple effect of providing that backpack to a homeless youth and what that does to get him in the door to a shelter that does that help him ultimately get a job and ultimately get him off the streets? That’s a really hard path to follow, but you don’t have to be a data scientist, and it doesn’t have to be so hard, and in the book, i give a lot of really tangible strategies that non-profit organizations can use to help figure out what are the long term outcomes and get past these vanity, not metrics that just make us feel good about our impact but aren’t really telling us whether we’re making progress toward the old nicole kathleen, we just have about a minute or so before next break, talk a little about the, uh, using this data to help you tell your story. Yeah, that was something that i saw. Over and over again is we have a situation where seventy five percent of non-profits collect data, but only six percent of them feel like they really know what to do with that data on the best non-profits figure out how to get it into bite sized chunks of information that someone can easily digest in just a few minutes and that khun b, whether you’re a small organization or whether you’re a huge organization, it really just comes down to those bite-sized pieces of information, indulge me while we take another break, wagner, cps they really do go way beyond the numbers for you, lots of resource is on their at their sight. When you’re cps dot com, you’ve heard me talk about the different guides and templates that they have there’s a lot of help for your nine ninety if you are preparing that yourself, i know you may very well be outsourcing that, but if you’re if you’re doing it yourself, there’s nine ninety help there’s help for your board different board committees like finance versus audit. What? What are the different roles that your boardmember and those two different committees should be filling? And how do? They complement each other. How do you keep them separate or didn’t finance committees there’s a conflict of interest policy for board members? There’s. An ethical statement, forbush, board members. So lots of board help. Employee’s versus independent contractors that’s a morass for for a lot of offices you know, you don’t want to get penalized by your state department of labor for mischaracterizing so there’s a checklist for employees versus independent contractor all right, so that those are some examples of the guys that are out there when you see piela is there more than just cpas, as i say, way beyond the numbers you go to regular cps dot com click resource is and then guides abila software, you are a non-profit but there’s a good chance you’re using accounting software that was made for a business like quickbooks or turbo cash, or and the problem there is that those don’t include fund accounting, so to cover yourself, you are probably using some external spreadsheets to keep your funds separate, or you’re using separate bank accounts to keep things separate because you don’t want to spend one one designated fund for a different purpose, like the jim renovation money on the lunch program. So you want to use a ah, a software and accounting software that includes fund accounting and that he’s made for non-profits and that is appaloosa counting helps you separately. Account for each of these different designated funds that you probably have and need to keep separate. You go to non-profit wizard dot com, and that is the landing page for non-profit radio listeners non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony’s take two next month non-profit radio is dedicated to your plans for twenty eighteen for instance, we’re gonna have something on the oracle net sweet social impact offerings, there’s software that allowed people may be aware of, but there’s also consulting from social impact the social impact team at oracle net sweet. We’ve got somebody to talk about that picky duvette from oracle net suite or business advice from score this is theirs. It’s free to you as a taxpayer funded in large part by the small business administration, we’ve got somebody from scored explain what’s available there. Where’s, the new tax law mean for you in the new year, jean takagi is going to explain it. You know him, of course, are legal contributor plus maria simple with prospect research amy sample ward on social media they’ll both be with me in january. Also talking about your twenty eighteen plan so the month of january devoted to next year’s planning. The video is at twenty martignetti dot com, and that will be very shortly. All right. And that is tony’s take two. Let’s, let’s continue with the podcast pleasantries. He was surprised i divided it up. We say on the heels of the live listen, love has to come. The podcast pleasantries well, the heels a little longer this time it’s a stiletto this time podcast pleasant few star over twelve thousand listening in the time shift. The vast majority of our audience is there, and i’m thank youl thankful that you are with us pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our am and fm affiliate station listeners throughout the country. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful that your station includes us in their weekly schedule, and i’m glad that you are listening on the on the terrestrial on the terrestrial side, the am and fm affections to the affiliate listeners, thanks very much. Kathleen kelly. Janice. Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re still there, right? Yes. I’m here. Okay, cool. Um i noticed you. Ah er is going back to your parents. You you dedicated the book to your parents. And you say for my parents who taught me the value of citizenship? How do you define that citizenship. What do you think of a citizenship? Well, for me, i’ve been raised with this idea that we all have a duty to give back to making the world a better place, and so we all have the capacity to make impact in some way and to me that’s really exciting, and i think getting even mohr and more prevalent, i acknowledge that not everybody was is lucky to have been raised with that mentality as i was, although i’m sure there are others who had those really important dinner conversations about social impact where no, no, i’m not sure how called prevalent there you are, but more and more what i see with my students at stanford when i see the next generation, is that there is this changing mentality that non-profit work used to be just about writing a check to a foundation or teo non-profit and then being on your way, people want to roll up their sleeves now they want to get involved non-profit work is no longer relegated, tio, you know, when you leave the office at five p m that millennials are thinking about how can they make a difference in their work in making the word world a better place? Whether that is using their skills to do pro bono work, or whether that’s e-giving back through donations and getting others involved in like minded causes to me, this is really exciting because it’s increased the potential for all of us. Teo make an impact in the world because we’re thinking about social change in a in a really different way. But it’s also really exciting for non-profits because there’s an opportunity for non-profits teo capitalize on that and i think too many non-profits out there are operating in this old fashioned model where they’re seeking donations may be they have, you know, an annual event or an annual dinner where they bring people together for a long program and over dinner and then that’s it, they collect their money, and then they get back to them the next year when it’s time for the dinner again, but people don’t want that donors don’t want that they want to be engaged, and they want teo feel like they’re making an impact. And so the onus is on the non-profits to really think about how to help donors get involved and ultimately that will lead teo, i think more funding for organizations as well, you encourage non-profits to think about earned income, recognizing that it may not fit in every situation that there might be non-profits where it’s not appropriate. But let xero about the potential for earned income and howto explore it. Well, i am keenly aware, as someone who i was trained as a human rights lawyer, that not all causes air suited for earned income human rights work is a perfect example of someone cannot afford the bus fare to get to the courthouse in the first place. They can’t afford to pay a lawyer for their rights. Many organizations are going to rely on philanthropic capital to fill that gap, and that is important and that’s okay, but what i found in my research is that when possible, the organizations that are able to bring in earned income are going to be ableto have this kind of level of sustainability that helps them get through the hard times. Ah lot of organizations talked about the recession in two thousand eight went so many grantmaking organizations pulled funding that they had already promised these this was money that organizations were relying on, but their endowments had gone down. And tanked with the down jones, and so they weren’t able to provide that really important funding and the organizations that had earned income sources, like a fee for service model or, ah, model where they were selling products, those air, the organizations that had the fuel to get them through that time when they didn’t know where their next philanthropic check was coming from. So it’s something that i think all non-profits need teo, at least consider as they develop their funding model, are their sources of earn income that can help grow the organization and and be willing to experiment with those. Absolutely you also encourage a multiyear fund-raising plan so it’s a little about what you’re going to that i think so many organizations think about fund-raising like filling a bathtub with a teaspoon it’s painful, you’re putting the water in teaspoon by tea spoon, and then at the end of the year, when you start a new budget cycle, you drain the bathtub and you start over again. That is a really painful way to approach fund-raising and what the best organizations do is they think about fund-raising on a multiyear strategy’s, so they make sure that their grants, when possible, are multi year grant so that there looking at funding three to five years out and not just here in a year, and then they help educate their donors on the importance of that, so not just not just foundations, but also individual donors who can contribute on a year to year level. And when you set that culture into motion, it helps you think much bigger about the prospects for fund-raising a supposed tio from a place of scarcity, that mentality of scarcity it’s hinders a lot of not just organizations, but people, you know, they just they feel like the think aren’t going to get what they need kayman it really does, and i hate to use that example because i think it’s really easy, you know, as a researcher to say, just think bigger non-profits i can think is because they wanted that doesn’t mean that the funding is going to come in the door, but i do notice there was one funder that i interviewed who said you can tell the difference between the organization when you ask them the question, what would you do if you had ten million dollars? And the ones that are able to answer that question right off the bat, those were the ones that are going to go big because they’re the ones that are thinking in that way and that have a plan and are and believe that they can get there. And so i think it’s really, it is really about mentality in many ways. Yeah. Wait. Okay. So we need to overcome that. We need to have the courage to think at the ten million dollars level. Absolutely. And owners need to be thinking bigger too. I mean, go both way and that’s your responsibility to help your donor’s think that way, grayce imagine what we could do if we had ten million dollars. Imagine how many lives we could touch. Inspire those donors to be a part of the solution? That is really what it’s all about collaboration. You mentioned it earlier when you were giving us the eloquent overview. Um, let’s, let’s. Talk about the collaboration delegation. Strong leaders are not afraid to past tasks onto others. It’s really critical and organizations cannot succeed without a really strong team. The story that i love that really illustrates this is of kiva dot or gray mentioned earlier that crowdfunding platform to support small businesses in the developing world using donorsearch unnie from premiere from criminal united states, but also now all around the world, and this organization started right around the same time that i co founded spark, and so i got to see this firsthand competition, yes, and they well, well, they were anywhere competition, but you could benchmark against i guess you were well, yeah, and and it was really amazing story because jessica jackley and matt flannery, the founders, were on oprah winfrey. They were featured and bill clinton’s e-giving book and were featured on the oprah show that income that didn’t come for you as co founder of spark no, as much as you like, we saw what happened for them, they raised eleven million dollars overnight after being on the oprah show. They they literally crashed their servers and and we’re no longer able to accept funds, and so overnight they had to think about leadership in a very distributed way because they needed all hands on deck in order tio distribute all of those sons that they had received, and so now is an organization. They have one hundred employees and five hundred volunteers around the world. There, keep a fellows go into the field, tio tio follow-up on the grants and tio ensure that there going where they say they’re going. And teo, tell those stories and catalog those stories, they rely on all those volunteers and all those staff to be on the front lines. And so they have strategies to make sure that those people, their staff, feel empowered. Teo, support the mission of the organization. So an example is they allow their staff to develop their own impact metrics so the staff can feel connected to how their work in particular, is contributing to the mission of the order are excellent. Okay? It’s, not it’s, not top down, right? We’re we’re talking about the antithesis of top down leadership. Absolutely. I mean, even their feedback model, they have horizontal feedback mechanisms so that they’re not e-giving and receiving feedback in a top down way, and that really helps set into motion this culture of horizontal value for all employees. All right, kathleen, we take our our third break. I want to remind listeners the book is social startup success if you’re listening live. You could be cooking right through now to barnes and noble or amazon. Be buying it while i take this break. Tell us. Credit card and payment processing. This is a way for you to become a partner with tell us by referring to them businesses that would be willing tohave tell us on the ceo is why it look at the fees that the businesses are paying for their credit card and other types of payment processing. But, you know, credit card being the most common. Think of the businesses that you talk about, the ones that perhaps your your board members run or are part of businesses in your community that are supporting you now in different ways, whether it’s through some kind of sponsorship or they are purchasing tables at an event, or making outright gift to you. However there supporting you, might they be willing to change their credit card processor toe also benefit you. And the benefit that you will get is fifty percent of the revenue that comes from each of these businesses to tell us will be yours. Not fifty percent of the profit. Fifty percent of the revenue that comes from tello’s that comes to tell us from these businesses will be yours. And if tell us, can’t save the businesses any money, then you will get to what you want. You will get two hundred and fifty dollars. That is. Tell us his promise. You can see the whole bargain at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s. Kathleen, the the other part of collaborative leadership besides strong strong senior leadership is a strong active board. What do you like to see there? Well, a lot of organizations. Start out with it what i call in the book of friends and family reward where they know they have to legally have a board of directors, and so they go out and they recruit anyone who’s close to them tio help them with their organization, and this leads to a lot of problems because friends and family are not always the most suited to help you grow an organization on they don’t always necessarily have the skills, and oftentimes friends and family tell you what you want to hear, those really pushing you to be your back, not going to challenge you tell me they’re not going to challenge you. They’re not going to challenge yes, exactly, and so and so and so, really what? I saw it, the organization that scaled had a robust organise, a robust organizational board that was suited for the skills that they needed and the talents that they needed to grow the organization. And even if it meant having to go through that a brutal process as moving from the friends and family board tio more robust kind of governance board my husband always we have three children, and my husband always likes to say i can’t fire my mother in law, you know it’s a lot easier sometimes to hire a baby sitter. Well, that should be your job. You should be finding your own mother is so much easier for you to do. No one wants to have to fire their mother, so don’t put your mother on your board. That’s the lesson on dh really getting it right the first time is the best recipe for success, but there are strategies that i talk about in the book for how to move past the friends and family board to govern in sport. That’s really going to help challenge you and get you through the strategic planning process to help you build a theory of change so that you can show your a solution to the problem and illogical and impactful way board relationships. Very tough for lots of organizations. The relationship between the ceo and the board sometimes it’s a micro managing board, even those even the relationship between staff and the board can sometimes be difficult. Um, intra board relationships there’s a lot, there’s a lot of potential for problems there there’s a lot of potential for problems and there’s a lot of potential for solution. Well, one leaves you doesn’t have to be that heart. One of the key things that i talk about in the book for developing a really strong board is putting the policies in place. Sue you’re very clear about what the expectations are of your board. I think a lot of these challenges come in when it’s just not clear, whose role is what and what boardmember zehr supposed to do. So let me give you an example. Organisations that responded to may survey said that only fifteen percent of their boards are involved in fund-raising when asked what they would like their boards to do, more of sixty six percent of the executive director said they would like their boards to be doing more friendraising so that’s a huge disconnect and i would i would ask those organizations will what have you done to communicate with your board that you would like them to be doing more fund-raising what have you done, teo, establish what their fund-raising goals are in the board policy. What have you done to support their fund-raising efforts? Have you provided events that they can bring their contacts? Tio, have you given them the stories that they need to tell at a cocktail party so that they know how to make an elevator pitch if you want your board to be involved in friendraising you need to lay the foundation to make that happen. So i think a lot of board frustrations but executive directors have with their boards can easily be alleviated by just laying the foundation with clear policies and clear expectations like the model of collaboration that you were talking about, you know, bottom up you encourage that also in in storytelling, and i know i’m not sure if you had a well, i was gonna say my favorite part was the storytelling part, but if you had to pick, that was my favorite. I’m not saying that’s the most important if is it possible for you to say which of these? And we’re going to talk about storytelling very moment, very shortly, which of the five areas is like, most important, are you willing to rank them like that? Or you think they’re all equally it’s like asking maeda choose my my favorite child? They are all important, but i will say that that that that kind of they do, i write about them in the order that i write about them, because i think that they do. They do lay the foundation for success in that order, so you can’t tell a good story until you have the deed of and the qualitative stories to show for that, and so that impact measurement and that testing process is really key to get there. So you did. You did think through the sequence of ah, that you’re goingto present these in the book, yeah, it’s, that sequence is very important, okay? Non-profit metoo tested me more haphazard, but you, you thought through that when you’re writing a book is different. So you you, actually, you thought through this, okay, i’m gratified to hear that, okay? So let’s, talk about the story telling you. You like again, bottom up. Absolutely, it has. Teo involved everyone around you there’s an organization i interviewed called ideo dot or ge, and they used design thinking, teo help non-profits develop innovative solutions in their work, and they have this thing that they they implement on and their staff meetings called storytelling roulette, where they spin the wheel like a wheel of fortune, they they spin it and then randomly it will land on a story and they’ll pick a staff person in advance who on the spot has to tell that story as if they were pitching it to a donor or a potential partner? I’m not because, eh, every staff member hasn’t necessarily been involved in all of those projects and doesn’t necessarily have that institutional memory. That is the way to build institutional memory. It’s also a way to build skills. Storytelling is not something that just happened. Storytelling happens with a lot of practice and, uh and and a lot of opportunities to practice one of my dear friends, nadine burke harris has ted talk with three million views, and she runs an organization called the center for youth wellness focuses on toxic stress when i interviewed her and asked her about that ted talk, she said. She practiced it for six months, this ten minute talk, and she said, by the end of those six months, her has been could’ve given the ted talk for her because she had practice it so many times in front of him. So i think it’s important, that we remember to make this space for that practice, not only for ourselves as leaders of organizations, but also for all of our teams and our boards and even beneficiaries talk about in the book. Yes, i wanted to go to the beneficiaries. I was, so you’re so you’re so comprehensive. I was hoping you were gonna leave beneficiaries, then i would sound smart, so i know. But what about beneficiaries? But, yeah, way, just have about a minute and a half left before we wrap up. So talk about encouraging beneficiaries to tell. Well, i think when you’re working with beneficiaries to tell stories, i think there’s ah lot of things that organizations need to do to be very conscious of what it means to put a beneficiary in that position and to set them up for success. So it’s not always appropriate, and i think what organizations have two d’oh ah lot of thinking to make sure, for example, that the beneficiary is well past and being part of the program, that they are in a better place to be able to tell that story. But there really is no more powerful story for unorganised ation to tell them someone who has successfully made their way through the program and has created a better life because of that outcome. And so we talked earlier about output versus outcomes that is an outcome when you can show that someone’s life has changed and hearing that from a from a beneficiaries own mouth is really going to be your most powerful sales person for the organization. Those air so compelling the mean those khun b riel tear jerkers literally it’s and they don’t have to be high production value, but they could be very very compelling. Very, very moving. Absolutely. All right. We have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much. Catherine kelly. Janice. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Tony it’s been my absolute pleasure. The book. Get the book for pete’s sake. We just did a romp through it. You need the book. Social startup success have the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference next week, zombie loyalists that’s our annual replay of peter shankman talking about extreme customer service. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant regular ciba is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream tony dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam leave lorts is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this very cool music is by scott stein you’re with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. No. Kayman oppcoll what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh. No two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for December 1, 2017: Music To Major Gifts

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My Guest:

Mitchell Linker: Music To Major Gifts

No One Dreams of Being a Fundraiser.” It’s a nonprofit truism and Mitchell Linker’s new book. He and his music are with me for the hour.

 

 

 

 

 


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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. We have listened to the weak it’s touched reema hussain. She e mailed me, quote, i’m a huge fan of your podcast exclamation mark! Thank you for all the incredible insights and ideas your podcast welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio provides for aspiring change makers end quote, i don’t know welcome welcome is not part of the show the title of the show the name of this show is tony martignetti non-profit radio try toe. If you’re going, i’m going to shut us out, try to get it right and also aspiring aspiring change makers. I don’t appreciate the qualification these air, these air engaged change makers, they’re doing it. They’re not just hoping aspiring trying to make change. Teshima grateful for the grateful for the love, grateful for the love thank you very much and for loving non-profit radio congratulations on being our listener of the week oh, i’m glad you’re with me i’d be stricken with a para nicaea if you pointed out to me that you missed today’s show music to major gift no one dreams of being a fundraiser it’s a non-profit truism and mitchell link er’s new book he and his music are with me for the hour on tony’s take two thank you! Twenty seventeen responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna may slash pursuing and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us what a pleasure! Welcome mitch linker to the studio. He is a professional fundraiser in education and author of no one dreams of being a fundraiser by unexpected journey from music to major gif ts welcome to studio mitch, thanks a lot. I’m grateful to be here. That’s a pleasure? Yes, i’m a fan of the show. Thank you. Thank you. Well, that that’s that’s a prerequisite to being get now it’s actually. But it helps. It helps. Sucking up. Definitely helps, but don’t don’t suck up to them. And you look great today. Yes, right. Thank you. I got a lot of crushing questions for you. Don’t worry. Okay. All right. So music to major gift. That was that’s. Thie, that’s york that’s. Your story? Yeah. Okay. Story so far at least. Ok. Oh, so there may be another career. Well, given my track record, there could be several years. Oh, i see. All right, so maybe, like, fundraiser to french teacher. Okay. You know, i think i’m i think i found my found like, okay, cool. Alright. So music. Young age? Yeah. I’m talking to a former professional musician that you, you professional’s a little charitable on how much money he laid someone kayman song made money off to defend, not a living by are barely squeaking. No credit cards were important to you. Wake up to some of that. All right, but, you know, we gotta start with the early days. So the kiss concert nineteen, seventy nine? Yeah. Very important to you and your brother. You pleaded, pleaded with your dad. He took you. Why? Why? What happened? Why? We’re still big to you, you know, i don’t know. It was at a time in my life there was some personal turmoil going on, you know? And so i think it became something that i could cling? Teo there’s, some transitions going on. And what about kiss? Just so you know, i was the makeup, the makeup it’s. Funny. The music. Not so much. It was the makeup i just remembered. Like tracing their faces on that old tracing paper. Yes, i do remember treyz upleaf onion skin on. Yeah, exactly. You traced over with a pencil? Yeah. So it just became obsessed with them. And who’s your favorite in the band. Ah, it was changed. Gene simmons? Yeah. Had to be you. Okay, let wass i should say, was it, wass you don’t have a favorite and god now. Oh, no he’s around. You present it alright. Still could be back in the day. He was the guy. There is something just so you know, demonic and then terrifying about you want lloyd loved you had never seen him live. Never seen them live. Your dad took you and your impression. What can you remember? Well, the problem was which i talk about in the book was that i got sick. I think i was probably too young to be on the show. I was, what? Seven and i just didn’t feel well, i think the noise, the just the overall stimulation of it all. I just remember sitting there kind of crying and upset the whole time, and i remember seeing and i remember seeing jim, gene simmons flying, and i have vivid memories of the experience, especially considering how long ago it was. But it wasn’t a happy memory on that. I wanted getting sick and i went down health, alright, so so i mean that’s all right? That’s not a great memory. So why? Why continued in music or what? Well, you only seven then you’re still doing your still dabbling in music a little bit. Well, that young age, obviously, and it was obviously it’s part of sort of the tableau of how i became a musician, because, i mean, you know, i continue to be fascinated with him for years and years, so that was sort of my gateway. Um, so yeah, it was very formidable for whatever reason. I’m sure a lot of people have that story or some variation because kiss spoke to young kids during that era. Alright, yeah, but you got sick, and then you still continue to you. Know you’re well, everything is everything is life or death when you’re seven years old, so i’m not going to, you know, it’s so important to you, but everything is about, you know, the red wagon was important, but all right, but all right, you continued on, um so your music career was kind of like, i see, like, three, two, one, there were three people in the dent. Yeah. Then you were down to two with the day traders. Man, you did your home, and you want so i read the book. I appreciate everything. I remembered it. I do have it written down, but i do remember, i’m looking in his eyes. I’m saying now that was the dent and then the day traders and then ends. And then solo eso i’m and the day traders was too. Yeah, there was two person doing a two person act. All right, um, the dent was important to you. Yeah. You want it now? All right. I just want to set the scene that you grew up in. You grew up in west hartford? No, no. I was originally new york city when i was very young. And i have tio, connecticut, my family moved to connect, okay? And i’ve been in connecticut everyone’s, not west hartford know fairfield county, fairfield, fairfield and that i’ve been in the central heart central connecticut region like west harford since the year two thousand. Ok, now i know west hartford buy-in i guess as i was growing up in north jersey, i don’t know if this is still true dahna what started? It was very wealthy community because a lot of insurance companies were based in hartford, right? And then a lot of senior executives lives in west hartford, right? It was a pretty exclusive place, and in fact, i remember when i was a planned giving director visiting a potential donor who was a retired insurance executive in west hartford, and he had a huge house. I don’t know his west hartford? Yes, they were growing up. Was it still that way? Less offgrid is a great place there. There are a lot of really great quality of life. Sort of suburban towns in central connecticut glass and very avon and west hartford. Certainly probably. Okay, but that’s not where you grew up. You know, a group in fairfield if you fairfield. County if you feel count welfare flipped the town the town in fairfield county right now. Is that southern? Yeah. That’s, southern connecticut near new york city. That it’s a good place for commuters to live, right? But there is also a town named fairfield and felt very far like when i moved to central connecticut. Like the only time i ever went to central connecticut was to go to the heart pacific center to see things like kiss concerts when i lived down in fairfield county. Ok, so it was even though it’s a small state, they’re two very distinct areas, all right. And you were? You were a musical act. And excuse me in connecticut. Yep. Yeah. You made something of a name for yourself in connecticut. I like to think so. The hostess joking. Excuse me. Yeah. Okay. Starting with the dent. Yeah. You and two friends. Yeah. Tell us about the dent. Yeah, boy, i mean, man, do we go back? We were talking jeff and i my god, we would play with tennis racquets before we could actually play instruments when we’re pies really wears one. All right? And then we segue way too real. Instruments as we got older in high school and then we met dan. So yeah, the three must go way, way back. Arika like, fifteen years old and what not? And then as we got older, we got more serious and started actually writing songs and obviously, playing our own instruments. And then it just became your right. You want a karaoke? Chadband now you actually did play instruments. You know, we actually played instruments of yours, wasthe yours was originally i was a drummer, and then i was demoted to lead singer, okay? And i play piano took for writing purposes, but i’m not good at i’ve never been proficient. Okay, that shows that such a difficult question for me to answer. I saying the musician people ask, what did i do? And i get this ten minute answer. Well, i just started drops piela well, it depends how detailed you didn’t do anything particularly well. All right, all right. That’s okay. But you played. I played plate. Okay. All right, let’s, go out, let’s, go out for a first break. Sure. Well, way with which is me speaking and and so if you stand by time for a break. Okay. I don’t need one. But pursuing the art and science of acquisition it’s their newest paper to help you bring in new donors. This paper covers strategies that work from successful acquisition campaigns. And you do want to think about this as a campaign. Your acquisition of new donors campaign. I know this is fourth quarter, obviously so likely. This is not devoted teo acquisition during this part of the year. Probably not. So download the report and keep it. Keep it for next year’s acquisition work. You know that pursuing his data driven technology enabled. So the research is going to be based on the numbers. This report obviously no exception and helps you to understand your numbers. What metrics should you pay attention to? How do you know whether your campaign is succeeding, et cetera? Where do you get it? On the non-profit radio listener landing page. And that is that tony dahna may slash pursuing capital p now back to much liquor. And his book. Nobody dreams of being a fundraiser. All right, so the dent was, uh, it’s a time. I mean, it was hard to get traction. Yeah, you didn’t have a book. Or you don’t have an agent, right? You were recording doing some gigs. What happened? You know, intimately to the funny. I would recommend that everyone write a book because for me, even if very few people read it, it was like therapy. And i learned a lot about my started process and to your question, one of the things i realized in hindsight because we struggled so much we were so focused on this dream but had difficulty, as you say, getting traction. Part of it was in some sense, we weren’t all in, and i realized about that about myself. You know, i wasn’t the type of guy who’s going to live in a van for six months in total squalor. Like i loved writing songs. I loved music, and i did love traveling. But i just never was able to kind of make that full life commitment. And i only realise that in retrospect, i guess that’s sort of an aside but that’s, one of the fifty things i learned about myself in the process of writing this thing and so it’s sort of helped me realize oh, yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s. What happened to an extent, maybe we didn’t commit as much as we should have. We committed to the writing and, like the dream was there, but as far as what you actually need to be. Two d’oh it’s. So difficult and unpleasant. Yeah, maybe over romanticized it. I think so. Yeah, yeah. Now, how do you feel about your commitment to fund-raising today? Oh, one hundred percent. Okay, yeah. Now i feel like this is my do over. So i had a career. Okay? That’s what? I’m trying to get it. But as you were a musician, we’re still with the dent. You felt like you were committed. Then did you feel committed then? Do you think? I mean, is it possible to look back and say, you know, there were times when i just really wasn’t sure i should be doing it, but i kept kept on or did you feel like you were all in then? But now, looking back, you feel like you weren’t that’s a great question. That’s. Why you’re good at this. Cool. I scored one, okay. Initiating with because i think to some degree i probably always knew and part of it. And this is another epiphany. I kind of wondered what i think. The dent, we just kind of stayed with each other of familiar addie familiarity and comfort were best friends. Maybe that wasn’t the best sort of trio. Maybe that wasn’t the best partnership for all of us. And perhaps if i had not, i was just so so committed to these guys. Maybe if i had, you know, gone solo earlier or met someone else or one of the then met someone else. Maybe i would have sort of hitch my wagon to a different thing. And momentum would have occurred. There was just something about the dynamic of the three of us that in a way, held us back. And i think on some level, i knew that. I really do know. Now, in hindsight, so great. Much interesting. Okay, now dahna there’s. A lot of hard work. There’s. A lot of there’s there’s. Some overlap between being a struggling musician band, right? And fund-raising, right. You point out rejection networking. Yeah. Um, and you have a third one, too. Oh, well, a thick skin, i guess. That’s partly right, partly that was fleeing with rejecting. Do you feel like some of what? You faced negatively with the dent and then the day traitors, you know, actually help you in fund-raising? Yes, and that’s a thing? Well, i well, despite what i just said, you know, in my mind, i was generally all in and it was all i thought about. And as i talk about the book constantly pounding the pavement, trying to get gigs trying tio get a record deal, that was really that was that was the thing that you’re selling. And so, you know, there was a real commitment there, and yeah, it was just constant rejection. Like anyone good thing would happen, and it would be almost a surprise be so reinardy you want us to exactly what was wrong with sure. I got a judge, you might make it. You being a little hasty, take the weekend to think about and then let us know if you actually wanted to play next friday geever references of people who protected us wherever you want. So that did inadvertently trained me. And i talk about that a lot in the book, which is how you came to the question, but yeah, i was used to rejection. I was used to things being difficult, i’m used to the struggle on dh when i started to have success in something that that that wasn’t music, which was the fund-raising it was just amazing. It was like this incredible epiphany and that’s the ironic thing is, there was so many periods of time in the early days and music days when i thought, am i wasting my life? Certainly people in my life probably thought i might be needing to make a pivot, but it turned out to be to be great training. What i encourage anyone to do, what i did is their path to fund-raising not necessarily, but i know everybody’s got some path to it, and rarely, as your title suggests, is it linear, right? I don’t know that i sort of have the confidence in the fortitude and the desire that i have now if i hadn’t gone through that so i have no regrets, though there is a period of time where it felt dark. Now you have a day Job during always transitions in 3 two one trend and maybe that’s part of the commitment thing, i never just quit that job and completely did. It i was getting a little too scared. That’s probably what i mean, when i say, like, was i fully in? I think i’ve always had a little too much of a fear factor, actually even interesting. Now, i mean, your second band. We’re not gonna really dwell on the second band. Yeah, two ofyou, but day trader, i mean, that’s not there, not all day traders. I don’t consider being all in it’s, not like they’re right invested in a wall street career. I mean, they’re in a stock for a couple hours, and then they’re out. So, yeah, maybe there was something precedent about that name who knows? I don’t know. Yeah, that was no that nothing. Although very impressed by perceptive i think about thiss joe doesn’t just come together. Country popular belief i’ve get email like, you know, there’s a slapdash oh, i love it, but i know what’s up there, you know, it’s. Not true. All right, so the day job was you were you are involved in non-profits eventually landed in non-profits for awhile, i’d said dalliance is with several different random things on then eventually i stumbled upon non-profits i had no awareness. Of the non-profits sect alien says good work think people, but i’m sure not probably radio listeners will know that we’re but it’s good work dahna city. We’re going every now and then i’ll pull one out, but that was probably the only time in this show. So when i first started in development, it wasn’t conscious really was more just a job. Yeah, you today just fundez life, right? My love of exactly exactly. And it worked well, for a while. It was very then there was a time where you became a lot more intentional about a career in development. Starting to music. Music was not paying off, right? I was getting hold. Yes, you’re getting older. How would you know? I think we should set the contact older, you know i am. Wow. This is so you gotta come on. I mean, you wrote a book about your life. Hold forty five. Okay, forty five. I look much younger. I get ten years on you. You do all right. That’s a good thing. This is a podcast on nobody contest that assertion that you just made you could go on the website. Make your tony martignetti dot. Com make your own decision about whether which looks younger. Well, it was saying that i was sent it. I take it is thank you. People should draw that conclusion. Other on, i think it is a self serving. Pathetic, you know, sounds presidential almost okay. We don’t do politics. I’m non-profit radio. So you became a lot more intentional. Things were not going well. Money, tight music floundering, really? Your own gig. You’re on your solo career. You said you canceled you cancel every gig. Your music and your solo career, right? Literally canceled every gig that yeah, and then the whole thing is that when i think i feel like i actually started to find my voice and got better at music, i was at a point where i was to light. Like i said earlier, i was in these bands and i was felt beholden to these other people. And then when i finally went solo, i felt like i got a groove. But at that point, i had a lot of debt was getting older, and and then what really happened was the recession economy picked out and i don’t, so yeah, i felt so vulnerable. And i thought, well, i’m already in development. I’m gonna make this my thing, and i just completely abandoned music at that time. Okay, now, around that you were doing database management, and then you moved into prospect research. Yeah. There’s around this’ll eight, two thousand seven, two thousand eight session time or a little bit earlier i was doing really said advancement services. Then i was broadening it a little, but it was still not i was doing major gifts, you know, know, know, know? Know? Yeah. So but generally, i was sort of the research. Got back. Still back office? Yes, exactly. Right. They talk about, uh, two. Two bosses were discouraged. You and one who encouraged you. Yeah, the discouraging ones. What way? Wantto little cautionary tale. What? How did they discovered you in your? Yeah, because you had expressed an interest to them in right of career in fund-raising in furthering your working fund-raising two people discouraged you. How so? Well, i think in and in hindsight, maybe i would have discouraged me too, because i was still kind of like a young punk. You know, i guess i still could have had an air of you want e? I mean, they would you respect him? You worked for them? Yeah, i mean, when it was never malicious, but i think i just i didn’t look the part at the time, you know, our act the part. Probably i probably acted young and, you know, i was very vocal about my love of music, so i’ve sort of had me compartmentalized. And i worry artists lead, right. So then to suddenly say, i want to do this very serious, very diametric opposite you. Another edward of lessons going opposite that’s. Not such a trick. That’s. Not a good word either. I don’t know. Did they use it wrong? No, it depends what you mean. We’re not going to flush it out, but i don’t think it’s good. Okay, now i’m gonna move. Okay? So that i’ll point out the vocabulary. You have got to stop my you really do. I’ll point out that i don’t. Who will? I’ll point out the high points and we’ll let listeners make most of the decisions on their own. Okay, um, so, uh, letty so let’s talk about the guy. Who are you? A man or woman who inspired you? Somebody believed in you. Yeah. What? That person, a few people along the way just sort of recognise that i had a personality that might be come suitable. Yeah. Thank you. That and i guess i i was always conducive. Well, that was good e i think part of it was just i had a lot of different ages. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think i was and i had an energy and a zeal. And and so it’s a man or a woman, it was a few people on it if you are because you encouraged me, and that way we should be seeing people beneath the surface and look at what traits they possess and how those might actually, uh, transfer into fund-raising career or anything in non-profits so that, you know, we peel away the layer let’s, not judge a book by the cover. And there are there are traits that people have that could be valuable to non-profit and yeah, we should try to see that if if we’re ever in this kind of situation, i agree, and i’m deeply grateful for that for that encouragement, because at that point in my life, i hadn’t had much encouragement, you know, i’d sort of just been on my own trying this thing, and it wasn’t really working out, and then it goes such a long way and yeah, i agree that it was sort of a raw skill energy, whatever i had that had sort of a few people had noticed, and i was grateful for that. And i would have never really come to that on my own. You say that you perceived fund-raising as the guys in glengarry glen ross, which happens to be a favorite movie of mine. But, you know, if those who may not know it, it is excellent. Al pacino, walter matthau. No, no. Jack lemmon pompel al pacino. Alec baldwin. Very, very small, but very pivotal role. Al pacino, jack lemmon. Alan arkin. Excellent at harris. Excellent. Kevin spacey up. Excellent. Yeah. Okay, so these are these are shyster real estate people. We get the idea to get the idea for a movie that they’re special. They’re selling marshland in florida, people bonem and yet was sort of your perception of your gifts of asking people for money and, you know, part of it’s funny. I remember we went to this. Conference early on and i was i was doing research at the time, and i went to this it’s very funny nights that i went to this dinner and it was basically major gift people. I don’t even know why i went to it. You may have been that it was for everybody, but it was predominantly major give people and, like, the volume of that room was so loud, it was just a bunch of what i perceived as extroverts just really sort of out there confident people and part of it from he was a jealousy because i had been so just estranged from that world or i was just i had a very small world, and i wasn’t very confident. And then i saw these people in these personalities and i just thought, man, that’s, what fund-raising must be you’ve got to be this big, outgoing person. I cant do that that’s, not my personality, and i know where you’re going with this, but basically i came to realize you don’t necessarily have to be that way. But it was just it was so intimidating to me and then when i unpeeled back what i thought, a major gift officer does and what they do dio it just seems so scary and it just i sort of pigeonholed you have to be a certain type of person who is outgoing and brave and frankly, all the things in many ways you do need to be. But it was so different from how i perceive myself. I don’t know how you know where i’m going because i don’t know where i’m going, okay? I’m sure i’m not sure how you’ve mastered that thiss seems like a good place. We’re going to play one of mitch’s song. Oh my gosh! It’s ah it’s better this’s the dent is that this is this is me. So this is a solo. I’m sorry. Ok is the last thing i have things there, you know, he’s making this transition now getting serious about ah career in in fund-raising so things are looking up it’s ah, mitch linker. Yeah. Solo solo. Better anything else you want to say to lead into it? Well, this was never never. It was recorded as a demo, but it never went anywhere. I never did an album, you know, i didn’t put it on itunes or anything. But this was right at the moment that i basically stopped. So this is the first time anyone in the world so all right, so it’s podcasts, or you can play it back. You know, i could build buy-in anywhere you cannot buy. Give me a call, i’ll send you guys here. It is better. Which hyre two. Nice. Just get lucky. So, wait, king. Yeah, i’ll be down for a little while. Wait. Right? Duitz wait. Kapin wait. Two. Events back-up snusz buy-in hyre latto buy-in duitz hands. Krauz hyre mitch linker, better you heard here on non-profit radio. The only place you will we just take a break. Wagner, cpas. They really do go way beyond the numbers that typical cpas get mired in the guides they have. They have a couple dozen guides for you online. They’re going to help you sort your way through technical stuff because they break it down and make it simple for you. These are written specifically for non-profits, for instance, orders committee versus finance committee. That’s a that’s. A document they have. What one of different roles they break it down. Independent contractor versus employee checklist. Yes. You need a checklist. I just had attorney tom will sell on just talking about this. That was the november third show. You don’t want to make a mistake between contractor an employee and be penalized disaster recovery plan it’s another guide that wagner has for you. I’ve had a guest talking about that darvill arika last time she was on was june twenty third talking about your disaster recovery plan if your church wittner has a church internal audit plan, okay, you’re reviewing your bank statements each month. There’s a bank statement review form. All right, you get the idea way beyond the numbers. Take a look at everything they have go. Wagner, cpas dot com quick resource is then guides apolo ce software. You’re a non-profit but you use accounting software made for a business. I never thought of this. I never thought of that dichotomy. That’s a good word, but but it exists. And until apple owes brought enlightenment to me, i hadn’t. I had never thought about this. Why do you need non-profit software? Accounting software fundez counting that’s the difference. Fundacao n’t ing you have these different designated buckets funds of money and you don’t want to use the money designated the scholarships for the gymnasium renovation project. Mitch, you work in education, fund-raising you wouldn’t want to do that, would you? No, thank you. Now be quiet. You need to you need to separate account for each fund-raising appaloosa counting don’t use quickbooks and terrible cash. Where do you go for this non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony steak too. Thank you. Thank you. Twenty seventeen that’s what? My video says this year if you are listening in any of the different channels which we’re going to get through very shortly, it’s. Coming up. If you are getting my insider alerts in your inbox every single week, i know mitch lincoln gets them. You do much, don’t you? Thank you, never quite. Yes, i am grateful if you’re if you’re following on twitter, you’re retweeting about the show if you’re loving the show in-kind whatever method, however chan, whatever channel you used to show your love for non-profit radio i say thank you, i really do not mean mitch is breaking up, but i’m no, my gratitude is sincere, you know that. 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Thank you for standing by. Thank you for your minor contributions. Okay, so things are picking up and you start to self teach yourself. You, uh you got conferences, books, you’re you’re diving in. Yeah. Self self education. Yeah, yeah. I just immerse myself again. I completely abandoned music to this day. I haven’t arika on dh. I just committed myself one hundred percent tio fund-raising and yeah, i just i tried teo network as much as i could. And this wasn’t a cringe moment for you when i played better, was it? Um, you’re dying inside aren’t dying inside where? It’s a little embarrassing that’s ok? Really? No, no. I mean, i’m proud of you. I’m proud of it. Well, there you go. All right. No embarrassment. All right? You may feel embarrassed, but you’re gonna play the whole thing. But that’s, just a sample here. We were all in non-profit it was all one hundred percent in committed to the worst humor. But i committed to it. You know, that’s that’s what distinguishes most people would cut their losses. Oh, no, not me. Oh, i’m in. I’ll be the joke to death until i until either i get sick of it. Which that’s. A very high threshold. And that’s. Happening right now, you’re witnessing it says you says you, you’re not one to judge dahna i don’t know why i just i’m just declaring you sure you’re not you’re not judgment worthy. All right, so you you developed a cut. You eventually you you found a coach, you found a couple of coaching? Yeah, mentors. This is important to you as your sort of removing your way into now you’re in major gifts and you’re blowing some things which everyone does. This is not an embarrassment. I have not as many as you, but i’ve blown things bonem coach and mentor mentors coach is very important to you. One of the few key takeaways for anyone who’s might be interested in the book or maybe thinking about major gifts. One of them is for me was transformational, and i just think everyone should probably no matter what you’re doing in life would be great to have a coach and mentor. But for me having that like one on one follow-up just dialogue, having someone you can go to and run situations by and sort of talk things out with someone who has experience and he’s been around the block. And has seen everything. It really changed my life because i was struggling. I again, i educated myself, but when i was trying to practically apple, you know, apply what i had read or studied. I just wasn’t comfortable and this sky and then a number of people who i met, i’ve a long list of mentors really changed everything for me. And so again, anything in life you probably need people to look up to, but certainly with major gifts. I would definitely encourage anyone to just find someone outside of your environment outside of your job. Somebody doesn’t know the players who can objectively just sort of look at situations and talking through them. And if you are someone who is experienced looks to take on look to help people, i mean, we need to go any further. The profession is not only you know, of course, yes, if you are new to the profession. Absolutely, mitch is vice advice is very sound. But ifyou’re mortem or experience looked looked to help. You know we got we got to elevate the profession, whether it’s fund-raising or whether it is one of the back office. Yeah. Important back office. Functions give processing or prospect, prospect research database management. You know, we gotta elevate. You gotta elevate the profession. We all have a responsibility to bring up those of us who are ah, you’re newer. Yeah, you know, and it’s and it’s so much fun. It’s fun, teo. And i think most people want to give back and want to help. And, you know, the few times i’ve had the opportunity to kind of pay it forward, i found it incredibly fulfilling. So you’re right. It’s, a two way street complain and you tell some very good stories in the book about how just simple conversations in the thirty minute conversation, you know, huge. You see epiphanies? Yeah, exactly how exactly is that a mixed metaphor? See epiphanies having epiphany when you see an epiphany? I don’t know if you could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Let’s, stick with that. I don’t know if you see an epiphany or you just can you stand? Can you see an epiphany? Sam doesn’t know. Yes, cristal’s, he’s, except the man surrounded by crystals. But i think it’s happened. I’ve thought about it, i think it’s having epiphanies that you have a different all right. U s a let’s now, now you’re a bona fide major gift officer, you’re you’re getting over the hurdles thanks to the coaches and tours, you’ve got some practical advice that that you like around let’s start with the donor now you’re in a solicitation, right meeting dahna preemption, that was a tough one for you one guy, one guy wrangled you twice meaning go ahead, i’ll let you explain preemption in case someone is not aware of what we’re talking about and i don’t know, i don’t appreciate that might be a term that i just, you know, it don’t quantified you have, you know, basically, when you have a number in mind or a gift you want to talk about and then the donor they, you know, had you off the path early in the conversation, so don’t worry about yeah, i know why you’re here. I’m going to give the three thousand dollars i gave you generally, you know you’ve got fifty thousand in your mind, exactly. They’re committed to their three thousand dollar gift from last year, so that’s one of one hundred things that hurt the type of scenarios that are difficult to navigate you really only know through experience and through having p experience. I mean, the experiences krauz you didn’t sail, you have to fail, get some help from a which makes your and go out and do it again because you gotta you gotta keep taking by two the apple, right? So, it’s a little practical advice around preemption. What do you do? You throw out ah, boy. It’s happened. Okay, let’s, hear hypothetical. Well, from the book you’ve got. I don’t remember. I forget what number you had in mind. But let’s, stick with my hypothetical okay, yeah. You’ve got fifty thousand your mind in the first five minutes of conversation, you know, agreed the person he says, look, i know why you’re here. I’m going, i promise you, i’m going to the same three thousand i did last year and then he pivots to a different subject. Now you’re off. That’s your oft e-giving subject thanks to the right, the donor and preemption. What’s your advice? Well, you know, it depends largely on the report. If you feel comfort that’s sort of. Why, for my experience will dictate how far you’re gonna push. Sometimes you’re just going to say thank you and move on and hope the next time you khun growing more prepared. You know, i think sometimes maybe thank you, but thank you, but which is sort of what i was going to say that, you know, if you have a report there’s comfort if you just sort of very authentically and genuinely and politely say, that’s great. I appreciate that. But, you know, i’ve really been looking forward to talk with you. I have a couple ideas that i actually want to share with you. Would it be okay to let you know we were thinking, you know, most times people are going to say, ok, sure, we want to hear what you had in mind and maybe it’s tied to a naming opportunity that it’s a zoo has a certain level that sort of, you know, dictates that, uh, yeah, you know, sort of those things that are our scholarship at a certain minimum. So they’re these tools to kind of help you navigate that, but really it’s it’s having the boldness and and then the comfort teo continue that conversation, and sometimes it goes well and, you know, it really all depends. Yeah, okay, you talk about urgency, urgency and contacts. Yeah, you like those? Those that’s what i learned from my key mentor. Okay, for shut out. Yeah. You know, context is just sort of explaining, you know, you have numbers in your mind when you’re talking to the donor, basically sort of justifying the number and explaining why someone’s gift is important and, you know, the end of the day when you’re raising money, it always comes down to a small number of people who are really bringing in who are giving a pass majority, the money, whether you’re talking about a small campaign or very, very large campaign, it always comes down to a small number of people, and by context, i like to sort of convey that to donors and sort of let them know you’re in a small group of people that were going to help bring about real change to save and change lives. There aren’t that many people out there, you know you are one of the few so that’s sort of the context. Is there’s actually something? Pierre ical research i was just reading, like with in the past two months or so, a report about someone had done some experimentation around different types of materials. What one printed said, you know, all together we can prevent hunger in the community or something, and the other was you can be a change maker. You and it’s always so is the global or their full community versus targeting the individual. And that individual marketing piece did much better write. Interesting. You are the change maker, you’re the you’re the you’re the pivot. You’re the critical link in this right in this problem in our community. You the solo? Yeah, that’s, great that’s going so that’s. So that’s your contact context piece just sort of really just explaining how important someone is tio urgently, then the difference that they can make and why? So that that’s that’s that was hugely helpful. May and having this giving conversations so don’t like setting the table urgency. Urgency is, you know, just putting parameters so that so that there’s a reason to have a conversation at a certain time like capital campaigns are all about urgency oftentimes it’s a very arbitrary timetable, but it gives you license to talk about giving at a certain time because there’s a deadline, you know, political. Campaigns it’s more finite. It really is, you know, there’s election day. But other campaigns often times it’s just sort of a random period of time, but it it’s a great tool. It helps gift officers. It helps fund raisers sort of justify why you’re having conversation at a certain period of time. So it’s an instrument to help move conversations along. How do you deal with the rejection that being rejected in music helped you? I helped you achieve in fund-raising i mean, you don’t get everything that you asked for now in from donors. How do you how do you process it? What do you thinking about? You know, help people who are struggling with this here’s. How i feel about that. There are many times when i come out of the visit or situation. Or maybe after a follow-up and the gift doesn’t come through. But i still feel ten feet tall and it’s because i feel as though i did the right thing. You know, i feel like i asked for a gift that made sense. It was well received. You know, maybe your daughter will say that’s the right number two house for or i appreciate you coming to me, but now is not the right time or this isn’t the right project, but it’s very amicable and it’s not a negative experience for for anybody, you know, there’ve been plenty of times where i didn’t get the gift, but i feel good. I feel like i was brave and i had the conversation they need to be had and it was the right one, but for whatever reason, it just wasn’t the right timing for the donor. Yeah, further donor, exactly, and oftentimes no is just know now, but, you know, for six knows you’re halfway to ah six knows you’re halfway to her, yes, but i’d like to say, but what about when you walk out on you? Not feeling so good? Like maybe i’ll let the institution down, like i didn’t know there was an opening and i didn’t seize it. Yeah, you walk out regretful? How do you process that? And then, you know, carry on, because a couple of days later, you’re gonna have another donor meeting. I do beat myself up about it, i as i get older, i feel like i’m still in the infancy of my career. I’m going to be learning to the day i retire, which hopefully will be decades from now on. I’m trying to beat myself up less about it, but basically i just try to learn from every experience i literally will write down how something went, what i think it could have done differently. I’ll talk to my mentors, i still have my coaches and i just try to learn from every experience and most importantly, i hope that the relationship is preserved. I didn’t do any damage and generally don’t that’s key, the relationship is over. Absolutely no, we long to always go back. It’s a long term it’s a relationship? Yeah. It’s. Long term, based on trust and absolutely and it’s about the institution. Yeah, about the institution. Excellent. Let’s, take a little break. Tell us. Credit card and payment processing. This is a passive residual revenue stream that pays you each month as one of their partner non-profits. You are going to earn fifty percent of every dollar that tell. Oh skits. Half of what they earned from the businesses that you refer to them goes to you that’s revenue with a long tail. They have an exclusive. Offer for non-profit radio listeners this really is only available to you. Referral business tell us, is going to look at their their credit card processing thie statement, and if tellers cannot save them money, then tell us, is going to give your non-profit two hundred fifty dollars, if they can’t help it. If i can help the business, you get two hundred fifty dollars. That happens each time you refer someone to tell us, and they’re just not able to save the money. Now most cases, of course, there are gonna be able to save the money, but if they’re not, you get two hundred fifty dollars if they are and then, if the company does indeed move their credit card payment processing to tell us you get that residual income fifty percent of every dollar that tell us earns all right now, the two fifty part that’s for non-profit radio listeners only that is only for you. Congratulations. All right, so you want to take advantage of this? Where’d you go, teo to do it, you go to tony dot, m a slash tony. Tell us that is the only place that you’re going to find the two hundred fifty dollars, offer at tony dahna. May slash tony, tell us. Try to get them some referrals and get you some long term revenue. All right, mitch liquor, that was called, you much clinker beauty, that it’s been known to happen. Yeah, sorry, okay, i admit it. I mean, i applied myself for being being honest enough to say congratulations. Thank you very much. Small victories. I’m very important to me. I amuse myself. If no one else, i amuse myself on the most damning me who’s. All right, well, if you’re not, i still have so and that’s. What this is the center of the universe is me so. Let’s, see where we are. Okay, so you’re the institution. Yes, you’re. I mean, you’re sort of keeping in mind that it’s, the institution that you’re asking for it does not help you in d personalizing this whole process. Exactly. I was going to say that. Thank you for saying that because that’s something that i’ve learned and i talk about this in the book with music, it was personal. When i was rejected, they were saying we don’t like your orders. It’s, your honor, i don’t like your voice go as your art. You’re right, we’re not this this your art it’s not about me. When fundez it’s not about the solicitor it’s about the mission of the organization and that’s how you can remove yourself too. And you just want to do the best thing on behalf of that organization because it’s mission driven, you’re tryingto again safe and change lives. And so, you know, i lament of something doesn’t know so they go well, because i do to an extent feel so i’d like the organization down, and hopefully i can do better in the future. But it’s not about you, it’s. Not about being a great fundraiser or having the magic words to say or, you know, here career it’s about the lives that aaron backed you do have to keep going out? Yes, you know, you’re gonna have to get over the rejection and put on the brave face for the next meeting with the next donor a couple days later and for your next meeting with that donor that you feel like you didn’t do so well with you’ve got to keep getting out, you’ve got it, builds your experience absolutely, the more you’re out there, exactly, the thicker skin you’ll get, and the more experiences you have, yeah, every experience you have it’s like, okay, that will never happen that exact same way again, because i will learn from that moment. So after there’s no, it’s not, and this is a funny thing i talk about the book it’s like experience, but also being reflective and having people who are training you because i spent a lot of time out in the road and i wasn’t making progress because i was making the same mistakes again, and i didn’t have the tools to get beyond those mistakes. So it’s a combination of that. Experience and then really working at it and i again, i feel like i’m just starting, um, i learned every day how long have you been a major give fundraiser? I’ve basically been doing i’ve been in major gifts over ten years now, but i mean, i started in research, or i’ve been yeah, i know, but i mean, frontline fund-raising yeah, not indicate eleven years. Yeah, alright, yeah. Ten, twelve years. Yeah. Uh, you have a love hate relationship with travel. Yeah, yeah, i and c i romanticize it. I do enjoy travel, but it is. Romanticize it leading up to the trip. Yeah, right. Yes. I’m going to call again way hotel. Quiet and then you’re on the trip. Not so much. Well, it’s, just it’s. A lot of work is a lot of work. A lot of things can go wrong, especially when you’re tryingto beyond dealing with the travel. Just navigating all these visits and meetings that may change or being thrust it’s exhausting. But i feel like a conquering hero when i come back from a trip, you know, having been through it’s it’s very, i think it’s a powerful experience and it’s so great. When you have a trip and you get to see a lot of different people, because and this is a point, i want to get to that it’s the best Job in the world and 1 of the reasons for that is you meet so many interesting people, you would never meet otherwise successful people, people who are doing great things in the world, people who’ve who’ve had extraordinary experiences and you’re given this opportunity to talk with them. And you know, if you go on a trip and you’re on the road for a week and you have ten or fifteen meetings, my god, what an incredible opportunity to to see the world through the the eyes of these people who have done extraordinary things, it’s incredible, the people i’ve met who i would never have met otherwise you only travel tips for a long trip, not just like a couple of two or three nighter, but suppose you’re after ten nights, years ago, we used to have ah, what i like to be called that tony’s no style tips, tony’s travel tips hard to believe it would be in a liberation, but tony’s travel tips travel doesn’t that’s not t teacher now. So anyway, we had started there years ago. I just used to plead with the regular contributors to give me a style tip or something weird, the more formative years still tryingto master this podcasting still am travel tips for people on the road for, you know, a week or more. Well, it’s funny, i actually i was going to put this in the book, and i didn’t. So there’s there is more material out there. I wrote sort of things basically travel tips, right? There’s gonna be a volume two sequel, so i have many, many things. A lot of it is a really all right. Well, one thing i’ll say for fund-raising in-kind non-profit your listeners always have back-up meeting set because you’re going to have cancellations, things are going to move around. So that’s something i’ve learned, i would just be crestfallen when i’d have a triple set and then one by one meetings with follow-up hard. Now i find myself in a starbucks just depressed, you know, you’re on the institutions nickel to exactly what am i doing in san francisco? Back-up trips? Back-up visit visits is key what are some other? Good tips that i have durney too many, all right. Well, yes, when you travel, you do that’s. What i like to do is a sort of i guess these air back-up i’m in town, then i call people who have always said now, you know, i don’t want you to come to just to visit me. Yeah, i get that. So actually, sometimes i would go just to visit them, and then i would build a trip around them, but i’d say, you know, i’m gonna be in town to see somebody else in a couple days or or depending on the person, i’m not even spring it on them, like the night before or day before because a lot of people planned e-giving e-giving consulting mostly retired, you know, now they do have, you know, if you get him out of there with a doctor’s appointment, then i am that wipes out the whole day. Sure, now i have a doctor. Point ten now, four o’clock dinner. No dinner now. I wouldn’t do that. I have a doctor appointment. Ten o’clock. I can’t make the dinner, so you run that risk. But you know, if you’re in town for another couple days, you can still say, you know so well don’t like to know that you came for them. Yes, there are there’s a cadre of people who like to visit you, we’ll take the visit yet as long as they don’t feel that you’re there. The reason you came? Yes, absolutely, and a cz related to that. I’ve found that sometimes it is usually easier to get the meeting on very short notice, you know, you plan these things far in advance, but there’s a real magic sometimes to say, hey, i’m going to be around tomorrow, you know, just so happens i’m in town. Yeah, someone looks at their schedule, they have an opening. Sure, you know, it’s not something that you would. You would plan a trip that way, way, your tonto. But but there is, you have some anker visits, you know, pretty solid ones, you know? We’re not going very unlikely to bail, right, and then you can build the other ones around. Yeah, and sometimes a short notice actually is convenient for bianca and works out. Um, just remind listeners, of course, that the name of the book is no one dreams. Of being a fundraiser. That’s it barnes and noble it’s an amazon find book retailers near you well online. Yeah, find online book retailers a click away so, you know, live listeners. You could check it out right now. Go to barnes. I happened like barnes and noble. Okay, check it out. Well, well, well. I continue the chat with while we continue to chat with with mitch channeling you channeling you trying to think, what would you do? Or that person asked? Course, i don’t know who the person is, but i’m amusing myself opening yourself up to donors. You talk about some donors, you’ll share your music passed with something long, but but the personal connection means a lot, right? Yeah, it does. It does to an extent, because generally my philosophy is i mean, you need that personal connection because you want trust and you want a real genuine report. But at the end of the day, it’s about the donor and that’s something that i’ve learned is that generally you find that if i’m talking too much on a meeting it’s probably not going that well because they’re not opening up. I’m not learning from them. Right. So it’s, like you need that, that human connection and that hopefully a long term relationship, but it’s it’s it’s about there experiences, as i say in the book there ah ha, moments, you know that how they really feel about the organization kind of getting to that understanding and and that that their emotional connection to the mission of the organization you’re representing that’s what it’s all about it’s out it’s both yeah, i’d love to end there, but we have another minute together. Okay, i think i want to say okay, say it in a minute. In a minute. Yeah, okay. Oh, you mean from now for milk? When? It’s morning. Say for a minute, i’m just not that smart. When i was going to say was, you know, getting back to when i was saying earlier that i look to major gift officers like they’re another species of human, if there’s anyone out there who’s thinking about the fields, working as a gift officer, i just i see myself in part of the reason why i wrote the book is to be a champion for the field because i think it’s the best job in the world again, as i was saying, and it’s so powerful to be able to help make a difference for our cause and to meet wonderful people and it’s, i feel very grateful that i stumbled upon this, and even if you think you couldn’t do it, you should still try it. If there’s an inkling of the suspicion, you might want to do it, give it a try, pursue it, dip your toe into it. Maybe ask someone you work with to take you on a visit and experiment and you might surprise yourself because i never would have thought a million years. I’d want to do this now i feel like i found my calling that’s a great place to wrap it up. Great. Thank you so much. Misha linker, professional fundraiser in education and author of no one dreams of being a fundraiser. My unexpected journey from music to major gifts thank you again. Thank you very much. Next week, scale up and be sustainable. Kathleen kelly janice will be with me to talk about her new book, social startup success. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot. Com that’s a good word, were supported by pursuing online tools for smaller midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wetness. Cps dot com, appaloosa counting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by susan chavez, and his very cool music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot org’s somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for November 17, 2017: Your Little Brand That Can & The Future Of Email

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My Guests:

Julia Reich & Stuart Pompel: Your Little Brand That Can

Control your brand. Respect your brand. Consistently message your brand. Recruit strong ambassadors for your brand. Julia Reich is from Stone Soup Creative and Stuart Pompel is with Pacific Crest Youth Arts Organization. (Originally aired June 10, 2016)

 

 

Sarah Driscoll: The Future Of Email

Email still rules and it will for a long time. Sarah Driscoll urges you to be multichannel, mobile and rapid responding. She’s from 270 Strategies. (Also from the June 10, 2016 show)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with see alaska sis, if you made me stomach the idea that you missed today’s show your little brand that can control your brand respect your brand consistently message your brand recruits strong ambassadors for your brand julia rushes from stone soup, creative and stuart pompel is with pacific crest youth arts organization that originally aired june tenth, twenty sixteen and the future of email email still rules and it will for a long time. Sara driscoll urges you to be multi-channel mobile and rapid responding she’s from two seventy strategies and that’s, also from the june ten twenty sixteen show. I’m tony steak, too promote the rollover, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com tell us they’re turning payment processing into passive revenue streams for non-profits tony dahna em a slash tony, tell us, here are julia rice and stuart pompel your little brand that can welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference we’re hosted by n ten the non-profit technology network. We’re in the san jose convention center san jose, california with me now is julia, right, and stuart pompel they’re topic is the little brand that could multi-channel approach for the small non-profit julia is branding consultant at stone super creative and stuart pompel is executive director, pacific crest youth arts organization julia stuart welcome. Thank you. Pleasure. Pleasure to have you both. Julia. Welcome back. Thank you. From lester’s ntc we are highlighting a swag item at each interview. And it’s, i think it’s only appropriate to start with. And ten non-profit technology network score and which i love the reverse side of as zeros and ones. You have your bits and bits and bytes. I believe that. Anyway. Zeros and ones swag item number one goes into the swag pile. There’s more to come. All right, julian stuart let’s. Talk about the little brandraise multi-channel approach. Small non-profit. Tell us about us. About the organization, please. Stuart okay. Pacific crest is a drum and bugle corps, and a drum and bugle corps is an elite marching band and it’s made up of students who audition it’s, a maxes out at one hundred fifty members. And this is a group that performs on field competitions and civic events. But primarily the unique aspect is a tour that our students go on for two months during the summer. Based where so we’re based in something california headquarters in the city of diamond bar. But we have kids from one hundred cities across the state, and we actually have some kids from other countries as well. My, my father was a percussion major, taut drum while taught elementary school music. But his major was percussion. And i, his son, was a failure of the drum. And then i must a clarinet. I tried violin. I practice. So you went from the easiest instrument to the most difficult. I yes. Yeah. My progress showed it. And i was just i was a bad student. I didn’t practice. If you only go to lesson once a week, you’re not gonna learn. I have to practice it’s. Very true. What is your background in? Music. So i was a musician growing up. I didn’t major in music in college, but one of the founders of pacific crest on when i first started, i was percussion instructor. But the group is made up of brass, percussion and dancers, and then a show is created very intricate blend of music and movement. And then we take that show on the road, as i said earlier. Oh, and the unique aspect of it is a two month tour where the kids leave the comfort of their homes and we travel by bus and stay at schools and performed four, five times a week. And just how old are the kids? Sixteen to twenty one. Okay, all right, julia let’s give you a shout. What is? Tell us about stone super creative. Well, i’m a branding consultant and i work mostly with non-profits and hyre ed and i help them to find and communicate their authentic brands to help them maximize mission impact. Okay, very concerned. We need to be multi-channel right? Because our constituents are in all different channels. And of course, we want to meet our constituents where they are, so we need to emphasized multi-channel. Ism is that true? Multi-channel is, um, yes, okay, it’s, like not discrimination, not, we’re not discriminating cross channels. How do we know where which channels we should be focused on? Because there are so many, how do we know where to be and where to place emphasis? Wow, it really depends on the organization. It depends on the organization’s audiences. I’m sorry, we’ll dazzle too broad. How do we know where our organization’s, how do we assess where our organization ought to be? I think that’s a better question for stewart to ask t answer in terms of his organization. Okay, all right, well, all right, where is where is? Where is pacific crest? So way have we have a number of channels, but the website obviously is the first communication place, but on social media, we’re where we limit ourselves to instagram, facebook and twitter and youtube as well we’ve not moved to any others and there’s some philosophical reasons, for example, snapchat is not one that we’re going to move towards of, but we know that the demographics of our organization are trending, you know, in terms of people who are fans and kids who are interested in being a part it’s going to be in that younger age group, and so we know that twitter is becoming more popular with that age group, and so we’re going to do a little bit more there to attract that age group. We also know that facebook is trending mohr a little bit older now, and so there are certain things that we do on facebook that we’re not going to do on twitter. Sorry or vice versa. That’s okay, wait, we have a small set here squeezed into ten by ten so don’t worry if you knock the night a night, not mike’s, okay? And so that’s, how we make some of our decisions, you know, we start with what’s out there a lot of times the kids bring it to us, we should have a snapchat, you know? Or we should have a facebook page, or we should have a facebook page for the trumpet section and a facebook page for them, you know? And so we have to, you know, we had to be mindful of which ones of the official ones which ones of the unofficial ones and how are we using social media to communicate? We may be using the facebook page to communicate to the outside world, but we also use social media to communicate within the organization because students, by and large, do not read email that’s for old people. I’ve been hearing that. Yeah, okay, okay. And so so were communicating to our members. Of course i’m going to send email to them in their parents, but we’re also going to follow-up with did you check your email on facebook? Okay, uh, now, i think it’s important people know that you do not have any full time employees. We do not pay anybody full time, so we have people who work. Ah, lot of ours. Yeah. Say that jokingly, but no, we do not have full time employees. Most of the money goes right back into the program. Okay, back-up what’s the philosophical objection, teo snapchat i think for us, the fact that a picture could be taken and or a comment could be made and then it khun disappear and the fact that it doesn’t necessarily disappear because it can be forwarded on, we lose control over it. And so for us, it’s, not something that we’re comfortable with right now. Snapchat is not a bad thing in and of itself, but when it comes to having kids in the group in the organization, we just felt that we’re not ready to do that at this point. Okay, it’s, time for a break, pursuing they’ll help you bring new donors to your work. They’ve got a new content paper on donor acquisition it’s the art and science of acquisition paper covers strategies that work from successful acquisition campaigns, and this is a campaign plus it’s got the numbers side pursuing you know them data driven as well as technology enabled, so data rise. What metrics should you be paying attention to? How do you know whether your campaign is succeeding? If you’re not looking at the right metrics, you’re not going to know and if you’re not succeeding, you need to pivot all the data that you need to be looking at. They’re going to cover that too. Um, it’s on the exclusive non-profit radio listener landing page that’s where you’ll find this content paper, it is the art and science of acquisition you’ll find it all at tony dahna slash pursuant and i am very grateful to them for their sponsorship. This show was back in june twenty sixteen when it first aired and pursue it was our sole sponsor. They’ve been with us that long. Check them out. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p now back to your little brand that can julia anything you want to add? Teo building a a fiercely loyal group of supporters. Well, i would just add to what stuart was saying in terms of controlling the brand, you know, that’s something that’s important to consider and something we talked about in our session as one of the differences between the for-profit sector and the nonprofit sector is that we want to take control of our brands so that, you know, we’re in control and people aren’t just making up our brand for us, but at the same time, you know, i think traditionally for-profit sorr yeah, the for-profit sector and, you know, they kind of tightly policed their brands or at least they have, i think that’s changing, but i think with non-profits it’s more there’s, more flexibility built into the brand. So, you know, snapchat i can understand, you know, that’s not gonna work, but it’s not it’s more about, like, guiding your brand across the channels and, you know, there’s more of ah, sense of collaboration, i think inflexibility with with guiding your brand across the channels, there’s more of an interaction with your audience rather than tightly policing it. Okay, yeah, on stuart, especially the age group that you’re dealing with, there has to be a degree of flexibility absolutely right. That’s why? When the kid comes to me with an idea than you know, that’s, we listen to those ideas because especially now they know how they want to communicate, and sometimes where we come in from the management side is that’s great information. Thank you so much, but you need to understand that there’s a larger picture here. So when a kid comes to me and says, i think we should have different facebook pages for different sections, you know, and we should have a brass facebook page and we should have ah, regular facebook page and a percussion facebook page. My question back to that student in this case, a nineteen year old kid just asked me that in who’s, a member of the corps for three years, i said, can you please explain to me in your mind what’s the marketing reason for that? What is the marketing benefit of having so many different channels that essentially say the same? And so then we get a conversation going to help the students understand that while he may be seeing a small piece of this there’s a larger piece to consider who becomes a teachable moment in that way, but it also then opens up the question of well, if you want to communicate that way within sections that’s a great idea, let’s. Go ahead and make those pages. Make sure that i’m an administrator on them so i can see what’s going on. And then that’s and that’s how we kind of grew the internal facebook and the i think it’s the official facebook okay, you knocking mike twice now? That’s enough! I’m going to stop using my there’s just we’re so excited. We’re just just stick yah late ing wildly teo convey their passionate we are. Thank you so much, stuart. Thanks. You also let’s say, julia that’s every file of something something stuart said, not little listening, listening he’s listening to the nineteen year old who want to do something that probably isn’t isn’t in the best interest of organisation, but there’s still a conversation about it listening and all your channels way amplify how that gets done effectively and really, you know, really? Exgagement well, i think it’s about knowing who your audience is, um, you know, you don’t want to just put your brand out tio every single channel in the hopes that it sticks somewhere. You know, i think, it’s what stewart saying is really important he’s listening to his audience, he knows exactly. Who is audience is on and he, you know, he’s he’s lucky in that sense, because it’s kind of a built in audience and he’s able to listen to them closely and know, you know, where they want to learn their information, where they want to get engaged, and i think, you know, ultimately all of this leads to trust and trust in the brand, you know, if they feel like they’re being listened to, they’re going to trust the brand, and once they trust the brand, they’re going to support the brand, become advocates, let’s spend a minute defining the brand way you mentioned a few times. I want people to recognize that it’s more than just logo and mission statement amplify that would you for us that the brand? Sure, well, you know, i present the definition of brandon my session, and it was, you know, generally accepted for for-profit sector definition, which is that it’s your reputation and you know it is your reputation, i agree with that, but it’s your reputation in order to gain a competitive advantage, so that doesn’t really work with non-profits it is about your reputation, it is about your sense of identity. But you’re not really looking for a competitive advantage, per se. I think what you’re trying to do is clarify what your values are, what your mission is in order you fit in the community, right? And then ultimately, i think, it’s about collaboration, you know, that’s where non-profits do the best work and make the most of their impact. Their mission impact is by collaborating, okay. How do you think about you’re the brand? Stuart, a cz you’re dealing with, a lot of young people are exclusively young people well know their parents also how do you how do you think through this that’s? A good question, because we’ve we’ve had to come to terms with that a number of times because especially with the youth group, the thing that you’re doing is not necessarily what you’re doing, okay? So this producing a show and going on the road and performing that is what we’re doing in terms of the actual product. I guess you could say that we’re creating the program we’re putting together for the kids, but when you’re dealing with students or young people in general, you have to go beyond that. You have to go beyond the we say, you got to go beyond the music, you’ve got to go beyond the choreography and the competition. There’s gotta be a larger reason there’s got to be a so what? To this whole thing and for us, it’s the unique aspect of leaving on tour for two months and something really transformative happens to a kid when he is forced to take responsibility. For himself or herself for sixty days of lock down? Yeah, and for us, it’s maturation, maturation requires coping skills, and as adults, we cope with challenges throughout the day wouldn’t even realize it anymore, but there is an issue in this country, and the issue is that students don’t have the coping skills that are past generation tad there’s a variety of reasons for that that i don’t want to get into, but we create that a pacific crest when you go on tour and you’re living on a bus and you’re driving through the night and not getting as much sleep is, maybe you want to and it’s still hot, but you still have to rehearse and we have a show tonight and people are depending on you. The coping skills get developed quite quickly and learning how to cope and learning how to deal with those challenges leads to maturity. Maturation is a forced condition isn’t come from an easy life, and how does your use of multi-channel strategies online contribute to this maturation process? Right? So they don’t necessarily contribute to the maturation process, but when we communicate what we do, it’s always about the life. Changing experience, even we’re recruiting. We’re recruiting kids and we’re saying we want you to do pacific crest or come check us out because this is going to change your life. It’s not about performing in front of the audience is they already know that’s what they do, they already know they’re going to get into that we want to explain to them and their parents. This is why you’re doing this. You could be in the claremont, you symphony you, khun b in your local high school marching band, you can play little league, you go to the beach, you can do any of these things. But if you want an experience where people are going to applaud for you and it’s going to change your life were the place to go. Julia, how do you translate what stuart is saying, too? Latto cem cem strategies for actually achieving this online in the in the network’s. Uh, well, you know, stuart and i met because we were working together. I was helping him with his rebranding a few years ago on dh as part of the process of re branding. You know, there were several questions that i posed. To him, gee, i don’t have those questions in front of me right now, but, you know, it was it was pretty much about, like, you know, who are you? What do you dio and most importantly, why do you do it on also, you know, what is it about what you’re doing is different than what other organizations are doing? What makes you unique, you know, and then ultimately that lead tio three different what i would call brand messages that pacific cross has been able to use in one form or another, you know, across their channels in their promotion of their brand, i don’t know, stuart, do you know the brand messages off the top of your head? And we could maybe give an example of how those have been used, okay, what are they? So the first one and these air paraphrased is to bring together a group of kids who are like minded and and want to be in a very high quality, superior quality performance group that pushes them right, okay, the second brand messages that were here to develop your performance skills, okay, which is an obvious one, but needs to be stated. And the third one is the life skills that i mentioned earlier, where we’re going to create an experience that changes your life because of the unique aspect of the tour. And so we hit those super hard in all the channels and all of our communications. So when you mentioned, how else does this manifest itself in communication, when we’re talking to people about donating to pacific crest? We’re not talking about donating so we could make beautiful music. We’re talking about donating so that they can change a kid’s life through music so that the drum corps becomes the way we change lives, not the thing we do in another cell vehicle, right method rights and it’s about consistency in promoting those brand messages in some form or another, you know, distilled down to their essence. And i think that that is really important when you’re talking about brands. But how do you achieve this? But this consistency multi-channel some channels, very brief messages. How do you how do you do this, julia? Well, we gave several examples of what you have to think about. Like you know what should be in your mind? Well, i think with every type of marketing communications thatyou dio you want to think back to what the brand represents, you know? So, you know, let’s say your values are, you know, integrity and education, you know, when your personality is fun, you know you can think about while is every message that i’m putting out there. Is it fun? Is it promoting this idea of integrity, of educating the child? You know, that’s, those are just examples, but i mean, you can kind of use those as benchmarks, it’s, almost like the brand is your like, your north star pointing the way i’m actually not very good that’s. Excellent metaphor, maybe seen analogy? No, i think. Okay, stuart, who at pacific crest is is producing our managing the channels? Is that all you? No, we have a social media manager. Okay? And what he does is he uses a nap location called duitz sweet to queue up her posts, but he’s also, we also use him as an internal manager. Two that doesn’t make sense. We use them to monitor what the students facebook pages because students might say all kinds of things about the organization and once in a while there might be something that gets said or posted that is not reflective of what we are, who we are, and then i can always count on brandon to send me an email saying, i saw this on the kids site and i’ll i’ll contact the kid and say, we need to have a conversation about this post and that’s, so so we kind of do it both ways. We manage it internally a cz well, as externally, i don’t know if that answers your question completely, but i’m i’m not in every box of the orc char, but when it comes to communication, i’ve got my finger on that pretty, pretty tightly. Julia dahna maybe how can i be a larger organization but not huge? But, you know, just a five person organization and how can they shouldn’t manage this the same way stewart is trying way stewart is doing, but on a you know, smaller scale organisation, how do you sort of manage the integrity and without it being controlling right? That’s a great question eso when i work with clients, i make sure that if we’re going to go into a branding process that there’s a branding team that really represents all levels of the organization and its not just the marketing people or it’s, not just the executive director. I think it needs to be the executive management team, but i also think it needs to be, you know, everybody, not every staff person, but just every level represented, you know, at the organization, you know, the admin person, maybe it’s a programme, people, i think it could even be bored members, beneficiaries of your services, you know, on some level, i think that they need to be involved in that branding process, and then what happens is that the end? You know, everybody has kind of bought into this idea they’ve contributed, they’ve been heard and they become your brand ambassadors. So you’ve got internally, you’ve got people who are being consistent and gauging in conversation in the same way externally, you know, it’s it’s kind of this marriage of internally, the brand identity is matching with the brand image externally, so it’s, you know, it’s, you are who you say you are, you’re walking the walk and people people get that yeah, i’d like to add to that because julia said something that i hadn’t really considered we were even talking in our session today. We have a very dis aggregate. I love that we have a recession idea for a new session. So we have ah, what i call a disaggregated staff of people. So, you know, we have a few full time or sorry for full time focused on admin like myself in our operations person and finance person book keeper, right? But we also have all the people who teach the kids and these folks have to be ambassadors for the brand as well. So when our program director hires a new person to be in charge of all the brass instructors are all the percussion instructors. And we have a team of forty people who work with these kids. So the person in charge of the brass section we call the caption head he and i are gonna have a conversation and we’re going to talk about what the goals are. Pacific crest. And the first thing that he’s going to realize is competition is not part of the goals because it’s not part of the brand. Okay, it’s, it’s. Definitely something we do. But when i talked to him or or her, anybody who’s going to be in charge of the staff? They need to understand what pacific crest is all about, what we’re trying to do and that, yes, i expect you to make helped develop the best brass program that we can have so that the kids have an amazing experience and we can represent ourselves, but there’s a larger reason for that cause i want these kids to learn howto work hard, i want them to learn the coping skills, to mature, to feel responsible for themselves and to each other, those air, the outcomes, you’re exactly not not a prize at the company, right? And then and and i and i have jokingly say that every single person on the staff is part of our retention team, you know, and part of our fund-raising team like as good a job as they do of instilling that brand all the way through the organization through the death of the organization is what helps tell her tell her story. More importantly, if i’m in charge of the brass program and now i’ve been told by the director that this is what we’re looking for now when i go find my trumpet instructor and my french horn instructor and my tuba instructor, i have to make sure that they also believe in that same philosophy. And so the nice part for me is once the caption had buy into it, then i’m pretty confident that the people they hyre are also going to buy into that, and so it flows all the way through the organization. Okay? Yeah, essentially grand ambassadors, yes. Julia and ambassadors, he’s recruiting brand ambassador, random brassieres duitz a new head of of the percussion section or the right. Yeah, because i mean, the way i used to do it is i would go and i would meet with, you know, the executive director or the marketing director or whatever your dork, right? Right? Right. And, you know, and then we would talk and, you know, then i would, you know, go back to my studio and, you know, work my magic behind the curtain and come back and present them with their brand. And guess what? That doesn’t work at all. No, you know, because that it’s you know, either like it or you don’t like it collaborative, right? You haven’t been part of the process. Right. So it’s, harder for you to become an ambassador for it to buy, to get that buy-in right, right? I mean, have the body. Yeah. Now, it’s just really about facilitation, making sure that everybody’s heard and, you know, getting everyone on board so that they can own the brand. When it’s, when we’ve come to the end of the process, okay, that seems like a cool place to wrap it up. Okay? I like the idea of the brand ambassadors. Thank you very much. All right. Julia. Right. Branding consultant with stone soup. Creative on stuart pompel executive director, pacific crest lugthart organization. Julian stuart. Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen non-profit technology conference? San jose, california. Thanks so much for being with us. The future of email coming up first. Wagner, cpas. They really do go way beyond the numbers for you. Way beyond being cpas. The guides, all these guides that they have there’s a couple of dozen of them on their resource page, each one specifically for non-profits ordered committee versus finance committee. Independent contractor. Versus employee checklist ali versus frazier disaster arika even find ali versus frazier disaster recovery plan church internal audit plan floor plan there’s no floor plan. All right, there’s, no floor plain, but there is a koa cost allocation plan. I’m not even sure what that one is. I went through it, but if you’re allocating costs, then it’ll make sense to you cost allocation plan, but they’re ah, bank statement, bank statement review form your viewing your bank statements all the time. Are you checking for the right things? Ah, wireless device policy. So they’re going way beyond the numbers. Very generous with all these free resource is just browse the list for god’s sake. It takes you a minute toe, look through and see what applies for you. Take a look at everything they have wagner cps dot com click resource is then guides at blow software i think you’ve heard me say this you’re non-profit but you’re using accounting software made for a business. I never thought of this. It was completely outside my ken then apples came along, wandered over, walked through the sponsorship door and i found enlightenment non-profits need accounting software that’s made for non-profits not quick books or terrible cash or microsoft or escape, those are built for corporations for businesses. Appaloosa counting is designed for non-profits built from the ground up for you, for non-profits to make your non-profit accounting easy and affordable. Non-profit wizard dot com now for tony steak too. My latest video it’s still out there, promote the ira rollover this’s a fantabulous gift for you for end of year only applies for those who are seven and a half and over. I explained that you know the details of the advantages last week for donors and for you just amplifying the benefit for you is this is a gift for you now today. So i considered a planned gift because it comes from someone’s ira, their retirement assets. But the cash comes to you today, not at the donor’s death, so that distinguishes it from most planned gift. Very easy to market. You could put a buckslip in the mailings you’re already doing, do a sidebar in an email blast. Maybe the email blast pertains. Teo your annual fund on dh yeah, your annual fund for the end of year appeal put a sidebar in promoting the ira. Charitable roll over, it’s. Really simple. The donors just go to their hyre a custodian and get a very simple form which is usually on the custodians website. They fill in your name, your legal, your legal man, your tax idea, your address boom and it’s yours. So, um, prote the ira roll over my video. Is that tony martignetti dot com? And that is tony. Take two. And here is sara driscoll with the future of email. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc non-profit technology conference. This is also part of ntc conversations. We’re in san jose at the convention center. My guest now is sara driscoll. Sarah is the email director and vice president at two. Seventy strategies. We’re gonna get to sarah in a moment talking about the future of email for the next ten years. First, i have to do our swag item for this interview. And it is some locally sourced cooking. Nothin crackers from crowdster crowdster non-profit radio sponsor. Actually. So crowdster and local crackers. The crowdster cracker. Thank you very much. Crowdster way had these two the swag pile four today. Okay. Sara driscoll. The future of email for the next ten years, twenty sixteen to twenty twenty six you’re pretty confident. You know what this is going to look like? Absolutely. Absolutely. You’re not just pretty calm. You’re absolutely confident. No qualifications. Okay, um how do we know what? Well, how do you know what’s going on what’s gonna happen in ten years? Well, i should say i don’t know exactly what’s going to happen, but what we do know is that email isn’t going anywhere. So there’s all debate right now in the tech and non-profit space about, you know, is email still a resource that my organization should be investing in, you know who even check their email anymore? No one reads them everyone’s going way too much of it all the, you know, millennials are on snapchat and twitter what’s the point of, you know, really investing my email list anymore, and the truth is, email is still stronger than ever. I actually just came from another panel where email revenue was up twenty five percent in twenty fifteen the year before, so people are still reading their e mail. They’re still donating it’s still one of the most powerful ways to reach people online. We have to get smarter and more strategic about it. Okay, now maybe there is some age variability, so if your if your constituents he happens to be exclusively sixteen to twenty five year old, maybe email is not the best channel for you. Ah mei is still maybe a channel, but maybe that’s not what your priority should be. That’s ah, great point and something that where we’re definitely looking at in terms of you know, you not only want to just you don’t want to just rely on one tool for everyone multi-channel write. The most important thing is to look at who your supporters are, what your goals are and make sure you’re meeting your people where they are, um and so that’s kind of the biggest piece that we talked about yesterday. I had folks from the sierra club and act blue join me to talk about their current email, listen, what they’re seeing and the number one theme was yes email, still alive and well, but it’s no longer king the most important thing is to make sure you’re going not just with email, but really integrating it with all of your digital tools, so making sure supporters are seeing you, not just on email but also on social media on dh, just using email as one of the tools in your toolbox, not the only one and consistency across these messages, right? Absolutely we actually to seventy. Our digital ads team recently has been ah, playing around with testing facebook ads that correspond with email. So is someone who reads an email, maybe clicks away from it, then goes on facebook and season ad with the same ask, are they more likely to then go back and don’t have that email on dh it’s across the board? We’re definitely seeing lift there. So with so much of all human, so many touchpoint these days and people having such for attention spans, the more you can get in front of them, the more you can get into their brain, the more likely they are to take the actions that you want them tio okay, a lot of lessons came out of the obama campaign four years ago now, so center in a presidential cycle again want to refresh our recollection about how groundbreaking a lot of their work was? Absolutely, yeah, and that’s something that you know, we are three xero everything about this now is, you know, the obama campaign was four years ago, email is absolutely huge then is it as huge now as it was back then? And the answer is yes, you’re seeing it with hillary and bernie raising tons of tons of money on line, and and it was that same back in in twenty twelve, we raised more than half a billion dollars online over email alone, and i think to really key things came away with from that campaign one was that you should not be afraid of sending maury male ah lot of people, you know, probably complain, and when i tell them today that i was on the obama joined brovey multi and they say, oh, god, they were sending you yeah, yeah, and so they say so it was you who sent me all those e mails, but we tested it thoroughly and we saw no, really no effective sending more email, not everyone’s going to read every single one of your e mails that people who are really, really, really upset about it are might unsubscribes but they’re not the people who you want. To reach anyway, they’re not going to be your your top online advocates and supporters if they’re not willing. Tto gett une male and and you didn’t see large rates of unsubscribes onda well, especially in terms of the people who we want to hit those online donors people. We had one group of people that we segmented out and sent maury mail every single day, so we sent him one or two additional messages. So we’re talking now for five, six emails a day those people actually gave more than the other group because again, it’s about, you know, people have so much email in their in box that you want to just make sure you’re getting in front of them. A lot of people won’t even notice how maney you send, and you want to make sure that you’re hitting them with the message is that they’re going to respond, teo but i think more importantly, the reason why are our strategy of sending maury mail worked was because every single email felt really personal and really relevant. So, you know, all this is your other take away, yeah, yeah, yeah so we spent so much time crafting the messaging developing really, really unique center voices that the emails felt like they were coming from the president from the first lady from rufus gifford, the national finance director on dh that’s, the philosophy would take a two, seventy two is making every making email personal, so it doesn’t feel like more email or too much email if the email that you’re reading is really strategically targeted to you and feels really personal and timeline relevant what’s happening in the world, it doesn’t feel like, oh, they’re just sending me another email, it’s oh, they’re sending me an email right now because they need my help to achieve this, and if we if i don’t step up and help right now, there’s going were not i’m not gonna help solve this really urgent problem, and and one really clear indicator of that twenty twelve was when we sent the last email from the national finance director rufus gifford, and he said, you know, it was election day or the day before like, this is going to be the last time here for me on this campaign, you know, it’s been a wild ride sort of thing, twitter actually kind. Of exploded and people were legitimately sad to see rufus go there like we’re going to miss burnam is your proof is i’m gonna miss seeing you in my in box every day, and that was someone who had sent them hundreds of emails, so it just shows that if you take the time to craft really personal messaging that really treats your email subscribers as human beings, they’re most of them will respond really, positively. All right, you gotta tell me what it was like to be just part of the obama campaign and specifically in the in the email team when when you were breaking ground. Yeah, it was freaking like i’m a fourteen year old cause i’m so excited. What was that like? It was incredible is definitely one of the best experiences of my life. How do you get that job? Honestly, i i actually just a applied through ah, an online form. One of my friends sent me listserv inside the job posting was writers and editors for the obama campaign needed, and i were actually fording that to a friend and saying, holly can talk about dream job, i’ll never i’ll never get it. And i didn’t expect to hear back, but i did, and you know, the leadership there, it shows that they really were looking for people who are committed and also just great what they do. It wasn’t about who you knew. They were biggest one to find people from outside the normal realm of politics, and i was working in a really small non-profit at the time, and they saw me and they they liked my rank simple, and here i am today, that’s outstanding, so they didn’t they didn’t want that the established direct mail on email consultants for inside the beltway, they truly wanted really good writers and on dh that’s something that that i talk about all the time now my current job at two seventy, whenever i’m hiring, i always say i want great writers first, whether it’s for email, whether it’s for digital, anywhere because digital is all about storytelling and that’s how you move people to take action is by telling them a story that they were gonna feel andi want teo to respond to. And so it all comes back to the words, even in this tech age around a tech conference, but i’m still you know, the tools and tech is really important too, but it will only take you as far as the words that you write twice. Yesterday it came up in interviews that a logical appeal causes a conclusion, but an emotional appeal causes inaction on the action is volunteer. Sign forward, share give you know, whatever that is, but it’s the emotional appeal that it creates the action that we want absolutely people are goingto take the time out of their busy days. Toh ah, volunteer or, you know, give any their hard earned money unless they really feel and they really believe in it. Okay, all right. So let’s ah, all right, so let’s dive into this now a little more detail. The future um, mobile. Now we already know that email needs to be mobile response is is that i hope they’re way past that stage or people still not providing mobile response of emails right now. We actually said that on the panel yesterday when when we when i introduce the question the panel, it was, you know, whether or not my e mail needs to be mobile optimized shouldn’t be a question anymore. It’s more you know, how can i continue innovating and continue optimizing for mobile something like my julia rosen for mac blues on my panel said that somewhere around forty percent of all donations they processed this last year were from mobile, and they brought in. They just celebrated their billion dollar. So you think about, you know, how i consume email in digital content these days, it’s mostly it’s on the bus when i’m goingto work, you know, it’s when i’m on my couch, watching tv on and it’s almost exclusively on my phone. So it’s not just about making sure it looks pretty on a phone the most important piece now and where where i think especially non-profits can continue to push is making the entire user experience really optimized and really easy, so that goes to saved payment information platforms like act blue and quick donate making sure you’re capturing people’s information so they don’t have to pull out their credit card on the bus and type in their numbers if they’ve given before you should have it and they nowadays people can click, you know, with single click of the button and their donation goes through same thing with the advocacy messages and it’s things like making sure that your, you know, landing page load times are really fast on that they aren’t being slow down with too many forms or too many images. You want people able to hit your donate link on, get there immediately or whatever action you want them to take because you’re gonna lose people if they have to sit there on the, you know, again on the bus forever waiting for your page to load and it’s the more barriers that you can remove, the more likely people are going to follow through. Should we be thinking mobile first, designing the email for mobile first rather than as the as the add on? Absolutely. Jesse thomas, who is at crowd back, was also on our panel yesterday, and he said that he which i thought was brilliant, he now has his designers and developers do their previews on on a phone. So usually when you’re previewing a new website, you know it’s up on a big screen, but that no one is going to be looking at it on a big monitor. So he literally has the developers pull up a phone and say, you know, here’s where we’re at in staging so they can, you know, make edits and go from there. Okay, okay. Okay. Um, mobile acquisition. You have ideas about acquiring donors and or volunteers or whatever constituents, supporters? Absolutely eso from now until twenty twenty six? Yeah, i think it’s just going to get harder and harder. We’re noticing, you know, the quality of of names are going down more and more people want a piece of the pie and i think it’s so it shows just how strong a male is because people are still are trying to grow their less, which they should and the traditional platforms like care too and change it order still great. But again, with mohr and maura organizations rightfully looking to grow their list, we need to start figuring out how else we can get people in the door. So i don’t have the answer. I think this is one of these places that the industry really needs toe latto innovate in. I think that one area that non-profit especially can really ah, invest in maura’s peer-to-peer on dh that also there. People are constant asking me how do we get you gnome or more teens where millennials onboard and just going back to like we’re talking about the emotional appeal. People are much more likely to do something if, if asked, comes from their friend or family member esso, i think the more we can get people to reach out to their own networks and bring people onto email list into the these communities on their own, those people are going to be so much more high quality to than any donor that you, you know, that you buy or any listen let’s build that you do that way. So i’m just gonna ask, is the state of acquisitions still buying or sharing lists with maybe buying from a broker or we’re sharing? Or someone with a similarly situated organization means that still where we are? Yeah, it’s definitely still worth it to invest in list acquisition. I always say you have to spend money to make money, but it also goes backto, you know, quality over quantity. I would never recommend an organization going out just buying swaths of names just to say they have ah, big list. You only want a big leslie you can go to those people, when you need that truly yeah, yeah, i do think one area that the industry has grown a ton lately, and i just really going to continue to is in digital advertising, so in the past used to be that you would never you wouldn’t think that you could acquire donors, you know, through facebook ads or that sort of thing and that you don’t want to ask money over advertising. But in the last year, we’ve really seen that change, and people are really starting to respond more to direct ass over advertising and there’s so much more that we can do there, and in general, the non-profit industry really lags behind corporate marketers, so i think about, you know, my own online experience, and i’m constantly being followed around by that those boots that i wanted to buy, but i didn’t and things like that and the corporate spaces so good at really targeting people with exactly what they want the booty just glanced at exactly, but then they’re there and then suddenly they’re in my head and i’m like, oh, maybe i do want them, and more often than not, i buy them, which i shouldn’t but i think that’s where the organization’s really need to go is really highly targeted, highly personalised messaging that responds tio people’s previous actions are they bun hyre kayman on having been on your site for exactly, you know, the most simple exactly just let people tell you the messaging that they want to receive and the type of types of actions that they’re interested in and yes, you can, and that digital advertising is going is a huge, huge space for that. But, you know, not every non-profit has a butt huge budget, but you can still look at your own data and figure out okay, who are my people who seem to really like social actions or people who are on ly about advocacy petitions and target your messaging that way? Let your own data show you the types of emails you should be sent there. Okay, so you so you have a lot of the intelligence, you just have to mind it. Yeah, you have to know what to look for and you have to take the time which i know having worked a non-profits time is your biggest scarcity, so but it’s so worth it. Really, make sure you’re looking at your data and tailoring your messaging that way got to take a break keller’s credit card and payment processing. How about this passive residual revenue stream pays you each month? That’s what tello’s payment processing is offering when you refer businesses to them, the businesses that sign up will get discounts, and you will get fifty percent of every dollar that tell of urns from the businesses that you refer. And on top of that there’s the two hundred fifty dollars offer, which is on ly for non-profit radio listeners, you refer a business if tello’s decides that they can’t save them any money that this business has such a great credit card processing fee structure that they can’t save them any money, they will give you two hundred fifty dollars so it’s worth it for youto start making referrals to tell us and, you know, same businesses you’ve heard me mention, but i i’m going to drill this home because i need you to think about businesses that you can refer the ones owned by your board members, local merchants in your community, the maybe restaurants, car dealerships, storefronts of any type big. Small. Anybody who accepts credit card your family members do they have a business that accepts credit cards? You can save them money and you can earn half the revenue that tello’s urns from the businesses you refer that sign up with. Tell us. The only place to find this offer on the two hundred fifty dollars is the landing page. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s. Let’s. Get them some referrals. Now back to sara driscoll and the future of email. You have ah, advice around. Rapid response. Yeah, i love rap response so way. Talking about after a donation or, well, after some action has been taken by that we mean no wrappers. One’s mohr is just respond to something that happened out in the world. Ok, yeah. So event that’s. Topical? Absolutely. Yes. So on. And this is a struggle that we had in twenty twelve, and i think every ah lot my clients have in that every organization has is where you spend so much time cal injuring and planning and designing these amazing campaign’s a cz you should. And then, you know, something happens. And every single time i’ll tell people you want to respond to what’s actually happening in the world doesn’t matter how how much you love the campaign you had planned for may be this day people are going to respond much more to what they’re seeing and hearing and feeling rather than what you’re, you know that if your community trying to crack for them from you, so and i think there’s ways that organizations can set themselves up for success with rapid response so first is just having a process for it. So, you know, anyone who works in email knows that you can spend a lot, you get bogged down approvals processes and getting emails actually set up and out the door, make sure you have a plan for if something happens that you need to react, tio, that you’ll be able to turn something around quickly expedited approval, absolutely put out the layers that we don’t really need you to get this out within hours. Really, we’re talking about our absolute the quicker you want to be the first person in their in box and that’s, you know and and and also you don’t wantto on lee send the one email, though, and then walk away and say, we did our apparatus rapid response? We’re done, it’s, a big enough moment. Keep it going. You should, you know, make sure you’re following up with people who took the action with different actions to take and just keep the keep the drum beat up for as long as its people are paying attention to it. Okay, okay. Let’s see are their automated tools that we can weaken you can recommend around rapid response that that that help i would say automation is actually the is is great and i think is a huge space that non-profits and grown as well. So again, corporate marketing so much of what you see, those drip campaigns, the re targeting you get is automated esso they have a lot more time tio, you know, think of the next creative thing to dio rather than just manually setting up the next email to send you know, an hour after someone visit their website, but it’s, when you’re playing with automation, it’s really important to not just set it and forget it because of moments like rapper response. So if you have ah triggered welcome siri’s set out for new people who join your list, don’t just let it go for a year and not updated with what’s actually current and relevant, same thing if you if you know that you’re going to be having automated message and going out and then something happens, you want to make sure that you’re going back in and either revising or pausing it, especially if it’s unfortunately, we never want this, but if it’s a tragedy or something out in the world, you also really don’t want to seem tone deaf, so automation is great, but and we actually talked yesterday about, you know, if we’re all going to be replaced by robots, one day robots can do all of the automation take a lot of the work off your hands, but they don’t have the brains and the heart to think about. Okay, wait, what? What does a user really want to be hearing right now? Be sensitive, exactly sensitive to what people are feeling? Yep, reading okay, okay, fund-raising you have ideas around fund-raising lots of ideas about fund-raising i think about it way too much, i mean, this could bea, you know, you talk about fund-raising for hours, i think the interesting thing right now that people are seeing is we saw we saw this huge boost in email on online fund-raising, you know, around twenty twelve and with all of the ground that we broke their and things like quick donate all these new technologies appearing, making it easier for people to give online, so we saw a huge boost around then. And now i know so my clients and organizations i’ve been hearing around here are kind of seeing a plateau effect, so let’s say, you’ve done all the optimization sze yu have the tools, but and so you probably saw some huge a huge boost in your numbers, but now you know, what do you d’oh and so and with and it’s also like the cat’s out of the bag with the male fund-raising right, like people know that it works so now everyone’s doing it, and that gets back to the volume issue where how do you break through the noise? That’s? Why, i think it’s super important toe really? Look at first, we’ll continue toe investing your list, get those new people on board, but also look at the people that you currently have and make sure that you’re you’re targeting them effectively, so things like making sure that you’re sending the right ass amounts for people segmenting by previous action taker. So if someone’s dahna someone who is an offline volunteer could probably be a wonderful online fundraiser for you two and too often, organizations treat their people in silo, so they’re volunteers are out in one. Area and digital isn’t really touched them their direct mail people are in a whole other area than their online givers are also treated differently and it’s so important to look at each user individually as a whole person and making sure that you’re there recognizes that there recognized for their relationship with the organization surveys could help. Here is really simple where we had someone on the show yesterday talking about just like five or six questions surveys? How many times do you want me to do? Do you want to hear from us? What channel do you want to hear? When should we ask you for for your your gift? If they’re assuming they’re in annual about a sustainers but, you know, so simple, like survey and listen yep, yeah, and then adhere to what they ask absolutely so again because there’s so much volume the more personally khun make your messaging, the more like the people are to respond. Another thing i’d say is there’s also, people often ask what the magic number of fund-raising emails is a year, but i think it’s so much more important toe to make sure that you’re developing really creative and interesting and timely campaigns. So look at your entire year and you really do have to start a year back and figure out what’s, you know, if they’re big moments that you know of that you can create fund-raising campaigns around. So, you know, giving tuesday is a great example of it that’s when it’s really blown up in recent years because it’s such an organic fund-raising opportunity that people are listening to in paying attention and they want to be a part of, and now the challenge is figure out how to create those moments your own moments, right? Because so many people are now involved in giving tuesday it’s hard tto tto break through the noise. So look at your calendar. Figure out what your giving day could be. Where can you drum up noise around your organization? And the more that you can tie it to a specific date so you can then have a deadline and a goal and ramp up your volume towards it. The more likely people are toe to pay attention. Um, you know, it’s all about crafting that urgency in a really authentic way. Okay, we’ll leave it there. Sara driscoll. Okay. Great, thanks so much. You’re loaded with information could talk about enough for our how did you get this into ninety minutes are over long. Okay? Sara driscoll she’s, the email director and vice president at two seventy strategies and this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur the non-profit technology conference. Thank you so much for being with us next week. There’s no live or podcast show happy turkey day affiliate’s you’re covered. We’re going to replay this week’s show for you. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant bye weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com by apple it’s accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and by tello’s credit card and payment processors. Passive revenue streams for non-profits tony dahna may slash tony tell us ah, creative producers claire miree sam liebowitz is the line producer. 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