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Nonprofit Radio for August 31, 2018: Stay Out of Email Jail & Real Estate In Prospect Research

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Amy Braiterman & Dan Clasgens: Stay Out of Email Jail
And avoid deliverability death traps. Segment. Re-engage. Analyze. What’s a pristine? Our Nonprofit Technology Conference panel breaks it all down. They are Amy Braiterman from CDR Fundraising Group and Dan Clasgens with DAV, Disabled American Veterans.

 

 

 

 

 

Maria Semple: Real Estate In Prospect Research

Maria Semple

Maria Semple is our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder. She returns with resources, tips and strategies for reactive and proactive real estate research.

 

 

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Buy-in hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of cola sister gas draws to me if you gold me with the idea that you missed today’s show, stay out of e mail jail and avoid deliver ability traps, segment reengage analyze what the heck is a pristine our non-profit technology conference panel breaks it all down. They are amy braverman from cdr fund-raising group and dan class skins with dv disabled american veterans real estate in prospect research. Maria simple is our prospect research contributor, and the prospect finder she returns with resource is tips and strategies for reactive and proactive real estate research. I’m tony steak, too, the late summer finger wag responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four. Nine nine nine here is stay out of e mail jail from welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in new orleans. Sponsored, of course, by hosted by non-profit technology network and ten this interview, like all our eighteen ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests are amy braverman she’s, associate director of digital media at cdr fund-raising group, and dan class ken’s, digital marketing strategist for dvd disabled american veterans. Amy dan, welcome hi! Thanks for having us. Thank you for having this time. Have you not brought radio? My pleasure. Your workshop topic is stay out of email, jail and avoid deliver ability. Death traps. Yes, that’s. Very good. And we now i covered this probably two or three years ago. And i learned that there’s such a thing as a une e mail deliver ability specialist that’s a title. People people study this stuff. You have to study this stuff to stay on topic. Okay. It’s a full time job. Really? Amy let’s, stay with you. Why? Why? Hyre what kinds? Of problems that we having generally, we got plenty of time together going to detail. Okay, start us off, general. Generally, i think our biggest problem is that there’s a lack of control there three main factors that kind of go into email deliver ability, and that is the email platform that you’re using you yourself, the non-profit and your best practices hyre how you’re sending e mails and then lastly, the mailbox providers, gmail, hotmail, yahoo outlook they all have different rules for how you get your emails in their inbox is how you reach your supporters and because of those three factors and the complexities that they all have it’s really tough. Teo, just stay on top of everything makes it a full time ok? It sounds a bit of a morass. Damn morass. Yes. Oh, i mean, absolutely. It’s changed your q. I think your radio probono hyre on dan. I missed the count. Well, i think what we’re finding honestly is people you want to engage with people that want to get they want you to engage with them, and i mean, we as marketers way are not really big fans of having to keep up. With these rules, but as a consumer, tony, i mean, you only really want to get the information that you’re interested in, and from that standpoint, i think google and yahoo and i mean they’re their jobs not to serve us it’s, to serve the consumer, and i think they’re doing a good job of it, okay? So they have the interest of their customers, principally, right? And not you other people are serving you, but not the email providers. Yes, i think i think the biggest challenge is it’s just it’s such a huge change of mindset, of going into it because, you know, in the in the world where i live in a stable american veterans, i mean, we’ve been one of the very large direct mail operator for a long time, and i mean, buying less ranting list, i’m as part of the direct mail business, and there you just take every address and amy and get you send a mail, right? It doesn’t work that way in the inbox anymore and it’s causing us to really change the way we think about how we do email folks and i think it’s also because it usedto work. Like that, i mean, email best practices years ago where send your e mails to everybody, everybody and anybody, we don’t care who you are. We don’t actually really care if you’re that interested in us or what you are interested in. And because of the fact that our in boxes are generates so much information. So many e mails? Well, yeah, i mean, it was even three years ago. I remember before i join cdr doing an email audit where that was the organization’s practice, and i was trying to explain to them, hey, we can’t keep doing this because you’re going to get these five percent open rates are going to ruin your center reputation, and they’re like center what? Like, you know, two years ago, i’m sure there was folks in our session today who are, like, we’re still sending to anybody we know about this segment thing, and we know why we should do it, but weren’t we have to it’s a total is dance, i’d like change your mindset of going from we want to reach everybody, and we need max impressions, too. We need to make sure that we are maintaining our reputation and how we’re interacting with our supporters, okay, this center reputation it’s a pretty simple phrase to understand, but it’s it’s it’s what? The platforms, the email platforms are these have judging the fight. They each have their own score that’s what makes it tricky? They don’t all play by the same rules. Yeah. It’s a morass, right? Yeah. I mean, extended reputation. We’re saying in our session today is basically like, your credit score is already done. Yeah, where you going? Outside or on the downside? We’re coming on the booze. You’re the khumbu. What? You even show happy hours here, right after this and the wind, the open bar non-cash bars only about twenty five feet away. Also we figured, hey, why not reach more people and tell them about all of our trials and tribulations and successes and maybe not such here’s the thing email, i mean, whether you’re a large non-profit like myself, a disabled american veterans or you’re the smallest non-profit in this room, this challenges facing all of youse gotta send her reputation. You know what? It or not? You’ve got one. You’ve got one, okay? And it may be good or maybe bad and it’s the same like analogies of your credit score. If you go to buy a car, you can buy a car with a bad credit score. There’s going to be huge interest rate, you can still send emails with the bats under reputation. You just might not be actually getting to the people. What are some of the factors that go into the centre reputation, dan? Well, i mean, i definitely understand it varies across email platforms. Yes, so i mean, how much people engagement your emails? Are they opening your e mails? Are they clicking on things who you’re sending it to? We’ve spent a lot of time our session today talking about spam traps and, you know, the providers out their pristine spam mail traps, for instance, or one where they actually put thes fake e mails out there. And if you’re not practicing best practices, buying list and doing these other types of activities where these e mails are on there and you’re going to them that’s a trigger that you’re not following these best practice. So there’s these traps out there, it’s like a land mine, and we’re just walking through there drops spam traps, there’s all kinds of so they’re seating bogus addresses on tow until lists that it shouldn’t be buying. Yes, okay. And you maybe what? What? What traps way covered four of them today. The four main ones we did the pristine. The next one is the recycled spam trap. And this is something that so pristine. The big difference is a human never had that they’re created tio by the email industry to make sure you as an e mails under r following good practices a pristine a pristine, pristine, pristine like a pristine beautiful beach with your note. But it’s not very beautiful. Now, it’s not okay, what’s a pristine okay, so the first teen is they’re created by non humans to monitor your email practices to make sure that email centres like devi or any non-profit or any for-profit consumer product is sending emails responsibly. How does it do that? How does it work? I have no clue because i am not that technical, but you can google and find out a little bit of i mean, look into pristine there other type of perhaps we talked about were like way too so for typos like you misspell it. Like instead of gmail g mall, yahoo without the one of the o’s or something that gets onto your list fake address. You don’t really want to give someone your address, but you need to complete the form. So if you’re sending to a lot of these like where the email addresses misspelled, they’re the domain is misspelled. That’s ah, that goes into this. Yeah, it’s not as much of a factor of some of their you know their heads. Different variants is teo, but they all play into it. It’s, time for a break pursuant. Their latest paper is pursuing e-giving outlook. You’ve heard me talk about it. They took the latest fund-raising reports. They boiled it all down. It’s ah it’s ah it’s! The thie essentials that you need from all the fund-raising reports that have come out recently all in one concise content paper plus there’s a video archive. Go to tony dahna em. A slash pursuing remember the capital p for please now, back to stay out of email. Jail. Okay. And then what was the fourth one? The fourth one is a role account. It’s a little bit more difficult to explain. But it’s it’s kind of in that same vein of, like, it’s? Not really you it’s something else that was added on there, and then the recycled, which we touched on for a second. But that is an email address that used to exist by a real human being and then is no longer in use. And after a period of time, the email provider the mailbox provider has said, this is not tru e mail address anymore. Okay, so they wait all these things together. They put them through their mash, and they decide on your center reputation. Yes, and it’s like a scale from one to one hundred. Anything above eighty is great. Seventy to eighty is saying you’re doing well, but you have room for improvement below seventy says, wow, you really need to fix your practices and that’s where it could impact you deliver ability. So so you’re saying the email providers will just not deliver your messages? Yeah, they just go off sometimes in the la la land buy-in we’ll sail on the whole the whole campaign with this one whole send all of it tonight could do that or it’s going to vary again. It’s going varies. Based on the timeline out provider that you’re going through to get to your constituents, that is okay, but you shouldn’t be risking obviously don’t want be risking it. I mean, if you’re if you’re below seventy with female, you’re in bad shape. I think the big thing is your score coming from coming from a fund-raising perspective at a non-profit like d a d i mean, we are driven by the ultimate dollar, right? So trying to get folks to realize that, hey, we can’t blast out all five hundred thousand of these people because half of them aren’t even open in the e mails if they’re not opening, they’re not engaging it’s, hurting all all that impacts deliver ability, but amy is found with us, and with other accounts of cdr and an industry has is we’re actually emailing less people more frequently, and we’re generating more revenue from it. Okay, okay, you’re deliver ability. Your reputation is hyre you’re engaging with, you’re sending two people who truly are engaging with you all those reasons, right? Exactly. Okay hey took the cliff notes version of our session today. We’re drill well. Let’s. Wrap it up. I got another. Fifteen minutes or so, roughly, but it’ll go fast. Kruckel okay, so we talk about avoiding the death traps, all right. Are there any more death traps? Anything we need to know about about what the industry is doing to snag us up recovered? Yeah. I mean, spam traps were the big thing. And the thing that we really shared with people today is that hitting a spam trap isn’t the end of the world. When you google for reports or to find out about spam traps, the resource is like what you’ll see back is all these very dramatic things that make you feel like a horrible e mail market or if you hit a spam trap. But it’s, not the end of the world you can really recover. And spam traps are telling you that you actually have a symptom of a larger problem. That there’s something going on with your email practices. That is just not working. And you need to take a look at it and figure out, you know, what will work. You know, i was actually thinking about this, dan, like when we hit a pristine spam trap in january of twenty. Seventeen and had a two percent open rate from an audience that we were getting seventeen percent open rates before so it’s a huge drop and it let us know we clearly have an issue, and i honestly think that hitting that spam trapping experiencing that was really the best thing has happened to us definitely opened our eyes and change the way we act. Yeah, you work together, we work together, we worked with cpr. Yes, dahna could never you could smoke whatever with your eyes not aware we want teo, especially our fund-raising right, it’s growing it’s always fund-raising growing doesn’t talk about sex vacation because that’s that’s a solution to this isthe dan, how is segmentation solution? I think just knowing what people are interested in and feeding them, information that relates to their interest is huge, and once again, i mean, we’re come from a world of direct mail where we’re mailing out this mail piece toe hundreds of thousands of people and that’s what’s cool about digital is you can really get it down to a very small interest group and hit him with that interest. I think what we’ve done with our segmentation has really paid. Big dividends and the fact that, you know, we’re able to see, because each of these people respond differently the types of messages to the different types of subject line, so we were able to test better with segmentation and overall, i just think that it goes back to what i said before, people that want to get our stuff, they’re going to get what they want and that’s, why we’re seeing the metrics and the click throughs and everything else respond accordingly. Is there any segmentation beyond interest? Well, yeah, i mean, we we got the frequency that they donate, obviously. I mean, you know, when’s the last time they made a gift, what type of action did they take with the organization? I mean, where do they attend a Job fair where they’re 5 k participant? Where are they? A veteran? Are they not a veteran? I mean, there’s, a lot of things of in segmentation there’s a lot of layers to it. You need a really good date. I think one of my challenges at our organization and we’re striving to get better every day is taken. All these separate databases out there that you know, these silos that exists and merging them together and having this global view of how this hand impacts this hand and, you know, it’s part of my job every day, and, you know, about amy and her cd, our team really works on developing great strategy, i’m in there educating the stakeholders and trying to manage, you know, all the politics that go on inside a large, large organization and, you know, making strikes, people are listening to what i’m saying, they’re so that from that point, you know, we’re doing good things, okay? Okay, amy, anything you want to add on deputation or you like them, dan covered, and i think the best thing about having dan as like our email partner or digital fund-raising partner and marketing is that he’s done an amazing job educating internally, learning, learning we’re all learning together and then getting those stakeholders bought in and if you’re a non-profit out there and you’re struggling with this, that is probably the hardest part is educating internal resource is and just stake orders about hey, we’ve got to make these changes because, yes, the money is still coming in, but eventually, if our center score continues to drop, we’re going to not see that money. No, you have a case study one hundred twenty six percent increased in open rates. Is that is that a tv or somewhere else knows it was that dvd. So when we hit that spam trap in our way, we’ll learn from what can we learn from it? We can learn that you need teo segment your audience. Find out what content is relevant to them. Get buy-in from internal state quarters and you can recover from any mishap that has happened to you. You can get open rates that go from two percent up to where ours air usually steady now in them twenties at twenty three. Twenty four percent. You know, we used to judge a good open raid at, like fifteen percent was an industry standard. I think for us a deviant cdr. I get bummed out when we’re not at a twenty two or twenty one. I’m like, oh, let’s, figure this out, let’s see what we can do. I think the other metric that is our new favorite is open to cliques. So this says of the people that open my email, this percentage clicked on. It and that tells you if you sent them content quick, something is like something in it, like click to a donation form, click to a survey promotion, more anything and that tells you if your message and the content you’re providing your supporters with means something matters to them, it allows us to also see the content they’re interested in. What are they clicking on? What aren’t they click on? I think the other thing that’s really played into the whole email challenge we face is the the idea of unsubscribes for spam people marking you as a spammer is like death sentence. I mean, essentially they’re saying your spam and not only they saying that they don’t want your stuff, but they say they’re your annoying them and that you’re not they don’t. They didn’t ask you to come there in the first place, and what we’ve learned and we’re learning every day is, you know, we sent out a large audience and you get a handful of spam rates, but the percentage is so low that it’s not as impactful if we just be about one hundred people and two people. Click on spam suddenly that’s two percent and that span percentage rate is another thing that plays into deliver ability. So one of the things that we’re working to do and put more in our strategy is to make it maur educate people how it have two unsubscribes easier making unsubscribes more available because if they don’t want to be bothered, then we want to stop bothering them. And that’s that’s really what these providers air forcing us to do. And at the end of the day, i think from from a consumer standpoint, it’s awesome, but from a marketing standpoint, a those that adjust and and go and change the way that they do things i think there’s still going to find probably way we’re fine is even more success than the way we used to operate have a hacker, the rial spammers getting through that because i’m you know, i’m marking junk all the time. A lot of i p addresses a lot of their spoofing are there? Or are they just there constantly turning over? Yes, every day i mean there’s a lot of everyday, they change, i think, there’s something like two hundred thirty four million spam traps out there. And there’s it could even be billion like it’s huge and there’s a a not a crowd sourcing thing that allows you to track spam and see how many traps are currently live and what’s happening in the internet just to give you like a thermometer checking the pulse rate of what’s happening out there because i know i know some of the bad guys are getting through. Yeah, they get there. You just want to minimize it. I mean, at one point, when we in order to get that very low open right, have issues that we saw. We probably hit a few hundred spam drops. You’re not going to hit one spam trap, there’s. Not like one out there that like. Oh, i hit the one you were going to hit multiples. You could hit three recycled like we celebrated huge success going from a few hundred two. We only hit three like that’s. Amazing. Because there’s. So many out there and it’s. Very easy to get to let’s. Talk about re engaging you. You touched on amy reengaging. People who aren’t engaged aren’t clicking. What are some tips for? For this let’s? Spend a few minutes on this. Yeah. I think one of the things that we all struggle with is it’s hard to say good bye to people like you want you know it as fundraiser isn’t even unsubscribes way don’t like to see that list, especially for what we pay the cost per acquisition in this industry is so high that it’s like it’s hard to give up on that, so what we’ve started doing is every time we’ll do it full, send sometimes to r un engaged file and will recover some people, which will see that as a win will take the hit on the spam complaint rate to bring back some more folks we’ve advertised to them in different channels, whether it’s, facebook or doing in male ads like for yahoo, our gene mail, those air this sponsored ads at the top of your inbox and then what we’re actually really focusing now on is how can we be a lot more thoughtful in trying to re engage so making the qualifications for who’s going to get that reengagement email stricter, you know, like let’s send to lapse donors from the last two years and see how that gets us let’s do laps donors the last year. Let’s do laps donors for a year and open an email a year ago. So we’re like working through to see what kind of rates we can get. Who we can bring back and figure out what that unique. What works for davey and that’s that’s. Kind of our re engagement tactics. What do you feel is a decent reengagement rate? I don’t think we have that yet. I don’t know, i don’t think we have that thing is every time we hit this un engaged audience so there’s good there, i’m out of it, but there’s bad too. So what we’re really trying to drew is sort of strike a balance of what that is, and i think it d a v for us as well, it’s harder not to crack because we’re dealing with a lot of different groups here, like we have our donors, as i mentioned right there, there’s the one point three million members of the organization that an entirely different group of folks we have our advocates, those that are part of our commanders action network, that air really interested our legislative issues and all these different arms out there. What might work in one audience doesn’t necessarily translate to another audience. So i think as you look at your organisation, you have to that’s where it goes back to the segmentation, understanding what drives those people, what motivates those people in the more data you have to support that, i think it will help you figure out what are the better strategies to re engage in these folks and at what point is amy said, are we willing to say goodbye? Is it possible that we’ve talked around it’s a little bit to figure out why your emails aren’t getting what? Why your emails aren’t getting through to you? Can you tell what whether you had a spam trapper was pristine? Or is it possible to evaluate that or you can their companies out there that can give you reports to tell you what types of spam traps you’re hitting to tell you how many different ip addresses air out there for you so there’s lots of different ways to figure out they’ll tell you what’s going on, but they won’t say, oh, this is specifically why you did it that’s kind of up to you to figure out, but chances are that you can get that information at least on how many types of traps you’re making your hitting because what it does it allows you then to do to go clean up your file, i think that’s another important topic that we haven’t talked on is let’s clean up the file. So now that you identified a problem, i hit to spam. Traps or one hundred, spam traps. Whatever your case may be, you can work with different services to have them look at your file. They match it up with the different mailbox providers, and they’ll tell you whether or not they’re valid email addresses invalid. Whether they have, ah, hard number of heart bounces off, bounces that, whether their spam complainer. So they have the propensity to hit spam on your emails. And what that allows you to do is put on lee, sent to the valid e mails. You know, take all of those invalid, take all the ones that are marked as spam, and put them in a group and not talk to those people. So then that also helps to ensure your developed deliver ability is happening, and that you have a good center score oppcoll way still have a few minutes left together. What what haven’t we talked about? That we should be flushing out more. I definitely think the tools we’re using, you know, different non-profits of different sizes have different tools, and she mentions a lot of these providers that score your tools, but just the tools that you have, i mean, obviously, you know, there’s big companies like blackbaud there’s the male chimps in the different things, but knowing how, you know, turning to them as a resource on some of their standards, because as amy mentioned before, there’s three parties in this and they’re one of the parties, so the googles and the yahoos and all those providers they’re i mean, they’re they’re the gatekeeper on that end, and we can practice our best practices there, but take advantage of those resource is out there. I don’t think that enough people actually go on and look at the research and the information that’s out there, and this is very nice that you’re saying that the email provider, the email providers they themselves put out there and, you know, amy and i, we’re we’re more marketers than we are techies. So if your organization has so somebody in charge of email that’s, more of a marketer or somebody in the communications team, for instance. It’s, good to loop in some of these folks i know for me and my organization. I have been lost without some of the stuff that cd ours helped assan cover. Having them to turn to is a resource helped implement some of these things because it changes every day to wave made a lot of progress. But this story’s not ending because then you could be two steps forward. One step back kugel changes something they’re not sending out of press release, right? We’re learning you want after that after after you dahna campaign or ascended it’s fun, you know the job’s never the same any day. That’s one thing that you can say for sure when it comes to evil marketing hundreds and like dan it’s totally right, you know, even us, as you know, as a friendraising agency are focuses on fund-raising and marketing, raising money and using the reaching out to your the platform that you’re using to send your email getting their technical help. It’s huge! I don’t think i would be where i am or as a group with davey without having the support of their i t department, they helped us do cem further very authentication called demark and deacon. Which folks can google learn all about it’s? A little bit confusing, but it’s really important? Because it insures that hackers aren’t spoofing your emails and that aren’t sending things under the dv domain that are actually devi. We have george in jail on twenty one radio you just transgressed seriously, we’re ah, i don’t think we have enough time to explain, but just repeat de marque de marketmesuite oppcoll that and decamp d market with the c a r c and d kim decay. I am i’ve seen these things in print. I don’t know what they mean. All right, we’re gonna let you off the hook. Thank you. Or sorry for the jargon jail. But they are. It is very important. Teo, just go and check it out. Go ask your i t department about it. They can actually educate you on these two terms and check and see if you need to get better email authentication and implement these leads to tactics. Okay, dan, anything you want o close with god. Give you a few seconds to close. No. Honestly, i just think that, like i said, it’s it’s every evolving, so it’s going to change a month from now, six months from now stay on top of your game. If they want you, they want you to contact him. That’s what you want to contact, engage him and make it more about them instead of about you. And i think the more non-profits do that, the more success they’re going to find that’s dan class begins, i say right, you got i did with the hardy digital marketing strategist of devi, the disabled american veterans and also amy braverman, associate director, digital media at cdr fund-raising group. Thank you, amy. Dan. Thank you. Thankyou, tony. This interview sponsored by networked for good, easy to use donorsearch monisha and fund-raising software for non-profits. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference. Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. They go beyond the numbers they’ve got. The resource is for you. Lots of different subjects at weger, cps dot com and you click resource is after you spent some time on the site. Pick up the phone. Go in. Real life talk to eat hooch doom. You know him? He was on the four hundredth show. He’s been a guest. He’s a partner there. He’s a pro. Good guy, wagner, cps dot com. Then have a chat with you now for tony’s. Take two it’s late summer and i’m wagging my finger at you reminder. I implore you. I can’t beseech, but i do implore make time for yourself over labor day weekend. You don’t just find it. I can’t find time. I don’t have time. I can’t find any time. Make the time make the time for you you have talking to you. You the person you personally make time for yourself over labor day weekend. Hopefully did doing summer sometime. But i regret to inform you that labor day is creeping up and, uh, you need to make time urine e-giving profession. You need to take as well that you can give efficiently and feel good doing it time alone is restorative it if it’s refreshing make the time there’s more on my video at twenty martignetti dot com. I’m very glad to have maria semple back. You know her for pete’s sake. She’s the prospect finder. She’s, a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her latest book is magnify your business tips, tools and strategies for growing your business or your non-profit she’s, our doi and of dirt cheap and free. And i know she’s not gonna let us down today on that she’s at the prospect finder dot com and at maria simple. Welcome back, maria. Simple. Good to have you. Oh, it’s. So great to be back. Thanks for having me. Pleasure. Absolutely. Um, you want to talk about real estate and i was game real estate for prospect research. What’s the value here. Well, you know, it’s it’s kind of interesting because i always include real estate data in every single research profile that i do. So i almost feel like we’re doing a back to basics show here. Okay, you know what we’ve got? You know, the core pieces of information that that really should be part of every profile and real estate is is definitely one of them. And i was, you know, in preparing for today’s show. I was trying to come up with, you know, the why? Why would we want to even focus on real estate? Why is this important and so you know, i’m going to offer up a couple of reasons. You prepare one. You prepared. You wanted you wanted teo. I’m doing that. Okay. That’s. Something new. Okay, so one is from a report called the cap gem and i world wealth report, which indicates that really state actually account for eleven percent of a high net worth individuals. Total assets, right? So, i mean, when you think about the average person, right, if they own a home or they own a coop or an apartment or something, i mean that’s a significant portion of their wealth, right? Because, you know, are they going to gifted to you? Are they gonna liquidate that asset and give you the money? Probably not. However, that does lead me to think about planned e-giving, as you know, a way to think about real estate as well. Especially if you know, your prospects happened to be a childless couple. So plan giving is something that, you know you might want to think about with regard to any of their real estate holdings that they may have, whether it’s, you know their primary home or or secondary homes. Yeah, there’s. A lot you could do with real estate, certainly the methods you mentioned, if a lot of times you might hear that child or the children don’t like the beach house or the don’t like the home upstate in the woods or out in the mountains, and so that strongly suggests that it’s going to be liquidated or, you know, you might hear that those exact same sentiments and there’s a possibility that that piece of real estate could be left to you so that the person or the couple can continue living there for their lifetime and they pay all the expenses, and then you’re at their death at the death of the survivor, actually, with the survivors death, the property immediately is transferred to you because because you’re actually changing the the deed of the property that’s all called a retained life estate, she wanted to google it and find out more, but you don’t need the unity of the jargon just understand the concept, you know, if there’s a couple that is expressing dismay that the kids don’t really want the house? Uh, yeah, so that and, you know, by the same token, if you happen to come across in doing your research that a particular property of one of your donors is actually owned in a truck. You know, that kind of should send up that little signal flag to you that they have done sametz state planning. And you you want to make sure that you know you’re involving all the correct parties in the conversation. If you’re coming across the property owned in a truck, how would you find that out in your research? Well, if so, let’s say you have the name of aa prospect your your donor and you have their address and in researching their address, you find that the property is not in the the donor’s name or the donor and the spouse’s name, but rather it’s owned in a truss, actually that’s going to be? Yeah, yeah, totally it’ll be very clear because it’ll be titled that way. Ok? It’s it’s titled to the right the asset is titled to the trust. Okay, so so in your public records, that’ll do that’ll reveal itself. Yes, absolutely. So, you know you mentioned public record, so we’re very fortunate in this country in terms of doing donorsearch research on in these types of public records because all real estate across the united states is part of public records, most of it is accessible on the internet very, very occasionally, if it’s a really small little town that maybe doesn’t have a big web presence or they don’t have their tax assessor rolls, you know, available online, i might need to make a phone call, but i have to tell you that is happening less and less for me these days. Aziz, i’m able to find most of that data that i need online. Okay, you got i’m sure you have some sights, recommendations free and dirt cheap that you can share. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, i think a really good starting place to be able to start finding, you know, ah, assessed value and taxes that people pay on their properties. Um, if you don’t know where you’re where the local tax assessor office is available online and so forth there’s one site that has a compilation state by state by state this toe where you can actually find the assessor info and it’s actually a fellow prospect researcher and she’s been maintaining this site for years. Her name is cristina. Pulawski and her sight is pulawski dot net, and i’ll spell that quickly uh, p u l a w s k i dot net and, um, if you go to that site, you’ll see a listing of all the states click through to the state of interest to you, and then you’ll easily be able. Teo, find the data that you’re looking for in the assessor and this is a free site. Yes. Pulawski dot net is free are doi n i knew are doing was not gonna let us down. Oi, end of dirt, cheap and free. Ok, what else you got? So so that that’s one that i really like is a good jumping off point for although that’ll get you teo teo, the assessor assessed values a cz well as taxes. So so let’s talk about those two pieces real quickly. You know, assessed values are very often not what the market values are. So in a minute, we’ll talk about some market values, sight. But, you know, i always like to include what is a prospect in my profile? I like to include what taxes are for the most recent year on that property, because i think it is very, very telling if somebody is able to sustain. And i did research once on dahna a couple who owned a property in in a wealthy area of new jersey but also had a house at the jersey shore. And between the two properties, tony, they were paying one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in property taxes. Okay? Yeah. That’s. A lot of money right there, right? That kind of tells you there’s some well, yeah. And then you take the take the value of those homes, multiply by nine and you’ve got ninety nine percent of their their their assets, right? Nine. Ninety percent of their wealth. Because you said for high net worth e the home is eleven per cent of the of the total assets. Yeah. Okay, very real. Look at look at all this information. We’re getting off just the that’s just from the assessed value. We don’t even know the market value of these properties yet, right? Okay, exactly way. Just have a minute or so we have a minute or so before break. So go ahead. But take take a breath after a minute or so. Hey. So the other thing i want to be able to tell you about is ways to find estimated market market value for the properties because, they said, it is very different from the assessed value on di think a site that we’re all very familiar with. Is zillow so kind of introduce that concept? If you need to go to break, and then we could talk a little bit more about zillow and different information that you could find there. Ok? The only thing i’ll put a finer point on is just to make sure that people know the assessed value that’s, the for those who may not own property. That’s, that’s, the that’s, the tax roll, value that’s, the that’s, the value of your home that is used to calculate your taxes. So they multiply that assessed value by the tax rate and that’s. How you get your your what you got to pay for taxes on that property versus market value, which i think is quite clear. Okay, let me take this break. Tell us you’ve heard enough. You’ve heard that you had to tell us moughniyah lt’s from charities that referred the companies for the credit card processing from the companies that are doing the processing and from those companies. Come processing fees and fifty percent of those fees go to those charities. You’ve heard the teles mony als that charity khun b you you can be getting the fifty percent of the fees. Go to the video. That’s. A place to start. Tony dot, m a slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to maria simple. Um okay, you were gonna hit us with market value. You got market value. Resource recommendations, love these are doi n, right? Right. So so i mentioned zillow and one of the reasons why i like zillow so much. Is that it’s a great snapshot of that property? I mean, literally, you will get a mapping. Sometimes there is a picture of the home. Uh, you’ll have information about, you know, the number of bedrooms, you know? Really, you square footage. What it left sold for three year. It was built. So you’re going to get a lot of information about that particular home, right? There, out of zillow, it mean it’s used extensively in the real estate profession, used extensively by anybody looking to buy or sell a home. So it is, you know, one of those sight that you definitely want to think about looking at, they call their estimates. It’s used extensively by me after i go to a friend’s house for dinner. And then i go home or i just go to the bathroom, and then i checked zillow, i got a guy i don’t know, i don’t know. What is this place worth? Sometimes i can’t even wait to get home. I was extensively you’re right. It is very use its used extensively. You’re absolutely right. Ok, is there another? Is there? Is there another market research resource? I mean, market value resource. Ah, well, if you are thinking about researching anybody in a city, it might be a little bit different self-funding example, in new york city, there is a site called city realty dot com, where you’ll be able, teo put in an address, uh, it’ll give you a picture of that building whether or not that building has a doorman, uh, you know, where recent sales were. Of apartments in that building uh, the year it was built, the amenities and so on and so forth. So again there you’re going to get an awful lot of information, even on those buildings where apartment, you know, maybe owned within a particular building. Yeah, cooper, condo and zillow. Zillow isn’t going to help you with with apartment properties, is it? Not much? I mean, you think the last time i was at a dinner with a friend’s apartment, whether i was successful, i don’t think i was able to find what i was looking for? No, i don’t think so. I don’t think they don’t know why i do it for all of them, so that nobody, none of my friends, they’re the only ones who’ll listen and none of them knows which which one i’m talking about. There just i do it universally. So i guess they should all just assume i’ll stop getting invitations. I don’t know one of the other. Um, yeah, but zilla doesn’t help with condos and co ops, right? I’m pretty sure. Yeah, yes. I want to look a city realty dot com that’s for new york city. Right? That’s for new york city, but suppose you’re one of the many, many listeners who does not live in the new york city metro area. What are you going to do for for condos and made it again? I would then go to, you know, look at the particular city that you’re looking for data on go to their main website as a place to start looking and start drilling down for any links that have to do with real property values. Realist, hey, you know any of those tax assessor’s. So those are some of the key words you want to start looking for in any of those drop down menus that you might find in any of the the city’s website. Ok, yeah, so you might you might have to just settle for assessed value if you can’t find a market value of cooper condo, right? But then you know what? They’ll give you the rate that you’ll be able to also, then, you know, multiply by to come up with an approximate, you know, tax tax assessment. Yeah, right. I was just saying, you know, just you might not be able to find market value for for apartments. That’s all. Yeah. You know, the best way i’ve done that then is to try and find an equivalent, uh, size department and what it’s sold for recently. Uh, look, it used to be able to find at least taels value’s. This’s why, precisely? You see you found a workaround. This is why you’re the prospect. Research contributed for now. Provoc radio. I knew there was a reason. Uh, no, i’m always reminded, but yeah. Okay, look, look for a comparable sale. Recent comparable sale. There you go. Brilliant. Brilliant. This is this is why you need to always, always, always go to that wonderful free site called google and put the property in there because right from that, don’t forget you’ll be able to get i mean, it’s just amazing. I can’t believe the precise photos and how closely i consume in on a home that i’m researching in terms of i can see number of cars in the driveway very often when i’m doing this type of research. So it’s, it’s amazing. He’ll definitely want to make sure you’re googling the address as well. So google as well as a swell a zillo. Okay for ok, ok. Um let’s see? Uh, you kind of like google maps for ah, well, before we go to google maps and broader real real estate discussion, is there anything more i don’t want to leave? You will leave your you’re good contributions unspoken. So is there anything more we need to talk about with respect to individual properties? Yeah, the only other thing i might mention is this sometimes sometimes in addition to putting ah, a property in the name of a trust, somebody might decide to really try and put some protection around that property and put it in the name of an llc. So if you’re resync researching someone like let’s, say you’re researching an entrepreneur and you know from conversations that you’ve had with them or from your board, that’s had conversations with this person that they have multiple property somewhere, and here your trying to find their name and you’re looking up their name, you know, the city that they live in a city and state, and you’re just not coming up with it. It might be that they own that property in an llc he might need to take one step first to go to the secretary of state. Database for that state. Put in the person’s name and see if it comes up connected to any l l sees, once you’ve got the name of the llc, then go back into your property database and research on the name of the llc as opposed to the individual. This is why she’s, the prospect researcher contributor. You gotta have a problem doing this work for you. If you don’t have one. Get maria. Uh, you know, brilliant. Brilliant. There you go. Very simple work around. We’re stymied. Everybody who, uh, who ran up against it, though. Okay? Yeah. Yes, holden elsie’s because, uh, i guess there’s, i guess there’s there’s a tax advantages, the business you’re doing, some kind of business passed through or something. Well, very often they’re just trying to protect the asset. So, you know, let’s say that, like i said, make-a-wish avectra nor or they own a big private company, um and they’re just trying to protect it against, you know, lawsuits and that sort of thing. Um, instead of putting it in their spouse’s name or a child’s name or whatever, still add maybe that extra layer of protection as a limited liability company. Owning the home as opposed to, you know, on individual a supposed them owning it personally and it being a personal i said it’s an asset of the llc. So if their personal assets wherever compromised for some reason thie the property in the llc would be outside that that reach. Okay, we just have to have a minute before break. So why don’t you just give us a little tease for what? How google maps could be helpful real estate wise that i bet a lot of people are not thinking about. So, you know, you and i have always often talked about pro active research versus reactive research. A lot of what we talked about it to this point in the show is on reactive research. Well, there’s a feature in google called my math that’s going to allow you to do some pro active research to really identify you know where some of your donors and prospects are based. Ah, and i’m going to give you some ideas and had to use that particular data. Yes, much more than just putting in an address. But that’s, right. Time for our last break text to give you get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors. If somebody can send a text message, they can donate to you it’s simple not only simple but affordable, secure there’s taking care of these things for you, you text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine nine that’ll give you info, and you’ll also be able to claim your special listener offer npr to four, four four nine nine nine. We’ve got about six more minutes for real estate in prospect research and go ahead, marie simple reveal if this feature of google maps that we can use in our prospect research, i’ll bet a lot of people are not aware of, right? So it’s actually called my map and ah, the earl is a little bit long, so i’ll make sure that i get it to your social media team. Or maybe i’ll go ahead and upload it wherever you’d like me to do so. But it is google dot com slash math splash about flash my math. Okay, so it’s a bit long. I wish they had it a little bit shorter. You could probably find it anywhere, you know, once you first and foremost, you’ve gotta have a google account. So first things first, you gotta have that once you’ve got that, you’ll be able tio look at all the various tools that you know that that, uh, that place that you would go to once you’re logged in your google account, if you want to access to your calendar and all those other things and other features that google offers that you might be using, you’ll be able to find it there as well. So one way or another, you’ll get to it or just google google my maps, and then you’ll get to it that way. But what i loved loved loved about this, and i couldn’t believe how easy it was to use and how awesome the results were. Uh, it will allow you to upload a spread sheet into google and google wuebben map out while the addresses in that spreadsheet. So i started thinking about this and wondering, ok, well, i could see the applique ability for, uh, for a business to do this, but how can a non-profit potentially use this particular feature? And so i was thinking about a situation where you know, you’re thinking about running a special event or you’re thinking about running a cultivation event and you’re trying to figure out, where should we hold this event? You know, geographically, where does it make the most sense so that we could get the most people in attendance at the event? So you can upload a list of, say, the donors for that from that particular county or region or state or, you know, whatever it is, uh, and it will map out for you, it will put those little you know, those little markers were all so accustomed to teo jump a little pins, write it so it’ll will populate the entire map, and then you can actually hover over one of the over one of the pins and you’ll be able, teo, click on it and it’s going to give you all the information that you have tied to that particular prospect that you’ve uploaded from the spreadsheet. Yes. Oh, right, right. So all your data that you up, right, so it’s pinning the address, and then everything else you uploaded with it would would appear when you click on it or mouse over it. Or is it one of the other day when you picked up let’s. Just be careful because of that. Here’s. The caveat that you might not want to upload that personally identifiable information. The name you might not want to write. You might want to think twice about putting in. Um, they’re full name, for example in there or their email address or, you know, things like that or phone numbers. So you might be in this situation up loading less might be better just from the point of view that, you know, once you’ve uploaded this in here, this map is then saved in google under your map. This is a map you can call up at any time. Uh, and so i’m always wondering, ok, well, who else could potentially have access to this map then? You know, in the back of my mind, this is the way i’m thinking about. So i might be a little bit careful about uploading anything beyond city and state. All right, very good. Very good admonition. Oh, so? So you can use this map to see population densities within within a state. Now, did you see any maximum number of rose that you can? You can, including your excel spreadsheet. I mean, could it be ten thousand? Can you map the whole country? I didn’t, you know, i didn’t try anything with a huge spreadsheet. I sampled it with a much smaller one, but i you know, i have tto dig a little deeper, and in google’s, they do have a pretty good help section about how to use this so they might address that there. Um, but i’m not sure if they’re gonna limit you on the size of this. Okay, that’s a great question, but also, if you are, if you’re planning a visit somewhere, you know you’re doing your well. This is summer, so you’re not doing your winter visit to florida, but whenever you have to prepare for your winter visit for florida, so as you’re doing that what counties should be visit well, let’s, upload, let’s upload on a simple spreadsheet all our florida addresses query by state nfl put it in a spreadsheet exported to a spreadsheet. Upload that to google maps and you’ll see the population densities throughout florida and you’ll know which counties in town’s teo host in and then then you could then go for your personal visits. You could map your way through through the state dry, you know, find the best route, right? Doesn’t help you with routes. Yes, like so then you khun route from one visit one of your donors to the next to the next. And get get yourself a nice, efficient routes that you can maximize your time. You know, while you’re visiting florida so that you can visit, say, you know, five donors in a day is opposed to maybe you were thinking you could only get two. Well, wouldn’t it be great if he could get four or five people in that one day? Right? Google will will route you through them. Love it, love it. Okay, wait. We just have ah, minute left before we have to wrap it up. Maria simple. What would you like to leave our listeners with so two more deuces real quick. One is if you have a lot of you run five k’s and walk and things like that and you’re not. And some of these people may not be already tied into your organization to the level that you’d like them tied in beyond their participation. So why not again? Matthau out where all of these folks, you’ve got their registration data. They’ve registered for your race again. Tie in to google maps, find out where these folks are all coming from, to participate in your five k and see how you can have some further engagement with them. Another, you know, i thought about was we have to leave it. There dahna next next time. Maria simple she’s, the prospect finder, she’s at the prospect finder, dot com, and at marie, a simple thank you so much, maria, you’re welcome, good talking to you. Next week, we’re live with a studio audience from the foundation center. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant, well, your c p a is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com. Why tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream? Tony dahna slash tony. Tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine a. Creative producers. Claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Schnoll you’re listening to the talking alternative network oppcoll waiting to get a drink. Nothing. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in something potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dulled, your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 24, 2018: Your Website Redesign & Overmarketing

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Oren Levine, Lisa Ghisolf, & Emily Patterson: Your Website Redesign
It’s your step-by-step guide to a website makeover. Let’s include gaining stakeholder support, managing contractors and using data to drive better engagement. Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference is Oren Levine with International Center for Journalists; Lisa Ghisolf with GizmoCreative Factory; and Emily Patterson, founder of BeeMeasure.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Overmarketing
Amy Sample WardIt drives Amy Sample Ward bananas. Let’s talk through her issues and preventative measures. She’s our social media contributor and the CEO of NTEN, Nonprofit Technology Network.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

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Oh, hi, hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into a habit ood if you told me the dull idea that you missed today’s, show your website redesign it’s your step by step guide to a web site makeover let’s include gaining stakeholder support, managing contractors and using data to drive better engagement. Our panel from the non-profit technology conference is orin levine with international centre for journalists. Lisa gets off with gizmo creative factory and emily paterson, founder of be measure and over marketing it drives amy sample ward bananas let’s talk through her issues she’s, a social media contributor and the ceo of n ten non-profit technology network i told you to, i’m wagging my finger, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p well, you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Weather cps dot com bye tello’s durney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s on by text to give amglobal donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine here is your website, redesigned from non-profit technology conference. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. We’re hosted by the non-profit technology network, coming to you from new orleans in the convention center. This interview, like all our eighteen ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits, i guess now are orin levine, lisa gets off and emily patterson, or in his director of innovation at the international centre for journalists. Lisa is founder and creative director at gizmo creative factory, and emily patterson is founder. Be measured that’s b e like the insect welcome buy-in. Your seminar topic is gourmet taste on a pizza budget. Tackling a website, we design for small non-profits, and i noticed that in your session description, use the word small three times. That’s perfect for non-profit radio because our twelve thousand listeners are in small and midsize non-profits. So i don’t have to admonish you or remind you even taylor, your comments too small and midsize or no, i don’t, because it’s, you’re right, it’s in your dna, it’s in the dna of your workshop topic, anyway, get carried away. Personal. Okay. What what are the challenges? Let’s, start down there with emily on the far end? What are the challenges with website redesign? Hyre? Definitely, i compare website redesigns, teo doing laundry, at least at my house. Okay, that it’s something where it feels like you put all this work into it, and then when you’re done well, there’s a whole new basket of laundry, and you need to start all over again. Yes, it’s, a project that it could take over here and then it’s. You know, another year passes by and it’s, time to start redesigning your website all over again, because technology and trends change so frequently, something you have constantly have to keep up with. What do you part of what you described way? Have you done your workshop yet, or it’s coming? No it’s tomorrow at one thirty and that’s a preparation for you? Okay, she’s like a batting range, putting, putting green. I don’t know too much. I don’t be doing sports analogies that that was a mistake i don’t anything about. I don’t know anything about either of those sports, football or tennis, so okay, what do you need? What do you need to have in place? Could we start with you? Lisa, can you could you adjust that one? What do you need to let in place? But think about before you embark on hiring someone to do it or doing it in house? What do you need to think about? You really have to think about weirder site is now and if it’s working for you and if you comptel, if it’s working for you, since we generally have analytics, but also are you getting the results that you want out of it? Are your constituents getting what they need out of it all of that kind of thing? And then it’s just improving upon what you have if its content or design usability, all of those things, okay? Or you want to add wear at the pre stage now, exactly. And this is in some ways where the small comes in, because one of things your back of your mind is, is what resource is do you have realistically to approach the project, which will probably be less resource is than you would love to have? Especially if you know you’re looking at other websites and say, oh, i’d love to have a website like name your large corporation here and because you’re not small non-profit you can’t. And in addition to the questions, lisa was passing one of the question, in fact, you need to ask is, you know, why do i have a website at all? You know, it’s really gets down to what am i doing? I’m murcott what’s the purpose why do i want people to visit me in the web but who’s coming to visit? What do i want them to do when they get there? And by being really careful about asking those questions that helps you match what you could do there to the limited budget you’re going toe? How do you overcome this stick of the orange? How do you overcome not knowing what could do? It is not your site is not doing it now, but it could, but but you don’t know. What it could do because you’re not already exploiting that. How do you feel that gap, that knowledge gap? Well, it’s ah, sort of a balance between what what it’s already doing, what it could do and what you wanted to do. And a lot of what we talked about in our own organization was trying to distill down of all of our laundry list or went backto the laundry analogy, a laundry list, emily’s basket wish list of all the things you wanted to do or could do or might do an ideal world. It’s really important to try to focus down on a few very, very critical things that you want the website to do. Focus your efforts there that both helps focus the minds of the people who are responsible for the website and then focusing your budget on a realistic set of goals you can achieve. So you might brainstorm and then and then and then focus exactly two realities. Okay, okay. See about something else you pledged to cover in your workshop. Hold your feet to the fire. Think about who to hire. Whether you need is who wants to take this one first? Whether. Whether you need expertise, we don’t necessarily have to go in line. One, two, three, three, two, one, which i don’t i don’t like that, but we can now for now anyway. There’s soup for now, but i’ll bring it up if we keep up with us whether whether you should a lot of small orcs probably do need help, right, then we’re gonna need some technical help. This website project definitely on dh speaking as a designer and developer, generally i come in when they don’t have those resource is on staff, or if those people are overwhelmed and speaking to lauren’s point, sometimes you can brainstorm with those people and find out exactly new things that you may not be aware of ways that you can integrate databases better, etcetera on improving communication. So, you know, so much of it is just what you’re re sources are and what you’re willing to put forth. So you’re often in the role of having tio make the expectations fit the budget. Yes, we can’t do that yet. I know you would love to, but if you want to do these other things that you said were playing top three priorities. And we can’t do this. You can’t have six priorities. Yeah, i’m a big believer in phase development, so if you could do it in six months, then we’ll do it in six months when it’s more feasible. Okay, how do you, uh, how do you message that reduction down, too of reality when it when you’re talking to the ceo executive director? Oh, gosh, i mean, i basically put it the exact same way that we can do this in six months. We can still make it happen with the budget that you have, but if you want to put more towards that, then of course, we could make plenty of things happening now, so okay, so bring it down. Arika money. Yes. Way to spread it out. You can have it, but it’s gonna take longer. Okay? In fact, one of the things we talked about in the session is sort of tricks. I learned i was emily start going out orders don’t get going out at one point, i want i want to head over to emily because she’s really the expert on how to manage to ceo seo, i’d better let her speak for that. I’m not going sequence. I don’t want you to continue, okay? My my one question is that one of the now now a great host, it’s time for a break, pursuing their newest paper is pursuing e-giving outlook it’s a roundup of all the fund-raising data that you need, they took the latest fund-raising reports boiled them down to the essentials into a concise content paper, plus there’s a video archive of the weapon, or that they did around this whole subject. It’s, an ensemble piece, paper and webinar both on the listener landing page. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please now, back to your website redesign say something talk emily yeah, it was like they had a message to you, ceo message manage expectations about the top level uh, so i think one of the things that people don’t realize, especially at the top level around website redesigns is just yeah, how much, how much work and how much? And thus time and money is involved, and i think having teo yeah, message and set expectations around that is a big challenge buy-in vices that i’ve worked and now in a zoo independent consultant, my point of contact is typically, you know, you’re marketing director or your communications person who have, who handles all of communications and all of fund-raising so kind of a mid level person and being able to work with them to help them set expectations with there with their boss around the web website, because i think a lot of a lot of executive directors, you know, they’re a little bit detached from the project and, you know, they’re looking online, and they’re seeing all of this awesome stuff that other organizations or, you know, even for-profit companies are able to dio and they don’t realize, you know how much time and money needs to go into that. I’m going to pick up on on emily’s point, that becoming the position of being the non-profit that’s working with cos, you know, we were designing the web site, and one of the things we try to make sure of is we knew internally in our own organization who who is responsible to make the final decision so that, you know, family’s talking the communications director, she needs to know that when the communications director says we’re not going to do this, then hearst boss is not going to come down two weeks later and say, well, actually, we are let’s keep that anyway, because that’s, how you lied to basically blowing your budget and changing your plans. So it’s, very important as an organization is a nonprofit taking on the project to be clear in advance. Who are the decision makers? Who are the real stakeholders, who is going to make the decisions and who needs to stay out of the way? That’s perfect. So who should be let’s? Go to you family? Who should be part of this design team? I mean, i think having one clear a person who is ultimately one person is in charge. Yes, having been in the position where three people are making the decision, you know that doesn’t really work. So ultimately one person has to have the final say. So we are we are not doing this, but i think lots of people should be involved and be able to have their input because you will otherwise get in this situation. Where oranges years, months later i don’t know. How’d we get this? Yes or no? You roll that definitely derail your project. If all of a sudden you had someone pop up and say hey, what happened? Teo x y z i thought we were doing this, and then as a consultant to be the person who says, oh, sorry, that’s not in the budget, i think it’s so we need to think through in the beginning stages, who are the stakeholders? So but with the web, but at our website affects everybody. Lisa, how do we decide whose we can’t have too many people in the process? I already said that how do we decide who should be part of this process and who should be sidelined? A big part of that for me is design theory. Tio it’s basically starting off with talking to all of the people who are going to be using the site. So if it’s one person from the board, one person from the staff, one actual end user, et cetera, and they don’t necessarily have to be people who are involved in the decision making part of it. But fighting out how they actually use the site and how they would like to use the site and how it all fits into the overall organization makes a huge difference in the end result and how successful it is, okay or anything you want to add to this? Yeah. And that’s another reason why inside the organisation it helps to have somebody you can sort of manage some of those relationships internally in some ways be a bridge between the organization and the external party. I in some ways fulfill that role in my organization. I’m not responsible for the site, partially because i have experiences a web product manager, i’m ableto some ways mediate, i suppose, between some of the internal forces intentions and our external external vendors, and that makes life easier for them because they have fewer people to talk to, and we’re clear decision making it makes life easier for us and that we’re able to resolve some of our issues ideally before we start having to pay for it’s going to more detail on this, managing the contractors or contractor whatever that is doing the process. Emily, you’ve got something you want. I was going to say that i think having your communications director or someone at that level lead the project is a good call because they’re in a role where they khun both understand more closely, like the technical side of what we’ll need to go into this because they’re close enough. To the project, where they might be in a role where they’re updating the website. But then there also. Removed a little bit from it and more into the business side of things where they can understand the bigger picture and the business decisions and the important role that stakeholders play. Where i think if you put the website in the i t department and have that management come from that side, they might spend more time kind of focused on how is everything working exactly and ignore the business side of war on the into the code? Okay, okay, let’s, let’s talk more about managing the contract with doing this project for us out. How do you? How do you like to be managed? I don’t like to be managed, but well, essentially the biggest thing is always communication on both ends of it and setting expectations. Some people love to talk only via email, some are i need to get on the phone with you to make you understand this and it’s an inter generational thing, it’s just it’s. Everybody certainly has different feelings on that bye, setting up expectations of how often we’re going to talk, how we’re going to talk, how we’re going to be managing all of these assets, all of these things that makes things so much easier down the line, and you don’t have developers who disappear or gaps in knowledge where well, we have no idea where we’re hosted right now, which is a huge deal, because so many people don’t really know all their passwords and everything. So let’s, let’s move to something else that you were are going to cover tomorrow. Use of data, you said data tio dr better flew and better engagement. Who’s the everybody plays family, right? Emily, you’re got two thumbs pointing to you. Yes. Yeah. That’s. The data portion of it is really my specialty. Okay, so we’re going to talk a little bit about what the stakeholder they wrote to me in for the stakeholder section because i had had this other presentation that oren saw where it was about using data to kind of manage people’s personalities, but definitely needed to manage personnel. That was that was different. There was somewhere else. Yeah. Is that another? Another kind of interested? Okay, about how you can take the day that you collect and then use it. Tio appears the different sort of questions and issues that pop with your different stakeholders, but definitely before you embark on your redesigned some suggestions about, you know what sorts of data people should look at, a lot of it depends on what sorts of issues pop up with your various people who are involved. I really kind of feel like there’s kind of three basic types of issues that it will happen, you know, there’s the sort of person who doesn’t you might have it from your executive director or from another person, your organization, they don’t necessarily want to spend any money, so helping to make the case that we need to make this investment and we need to invest in better technology, you can use your your google analytics user testing surveys a variety of different things to get a good picture of what’s going on with your audience because who’s using your website is not necessarily reflecting the needs of the person using your website isn’t reflecting. You know the needs of the people in your audience, they’re not in your office, they’re not the same. Okay, what else about data? I’m so you also get the person who is has all the fun ideas, maybe, you know, reads a lot of things. Online about the latest trends, and we need to have this widget and that widget and helping them get a good perspective on, you know, what’s really going on with our users where we really having problems with our site right now that definitely need to be fixed in the in the redesign, you can use google analytics things like back-up they have a funnel feature to see you. Nowhere in your process is people you’re losing people dropping out, leaving your side, and then i love surveys and user testing as a way to hear from riel people how frustrating it is for them to use certain functions on your website. So who would you send those surveys to? Is that that cut across all your constituents metoo donors, board members, people who are engaged, engaged with your programs, receiving your service is all those people get survey like that? It depends. I’ve done ones on the website, which i think are nice. Google has ah, very low cost pop up sort of survey you may have seen them before that you can answer a couple questions, and then there’s typically kind of an open end response, which is a great source for people’s france. Ok, things are kind of questions. Do we ask? You can certainly ask about user rolls if you want. If it’s important for you and your your website to understand who’s used what constituency you would word it this way, but what constituency they fit into. We’re delivering services, etcetera. Okay. What? What else do you want to find out? That’s? Fine, but you could totally keep it super simple. And just as something like, you know, what brings you to the site today? Are you satisfied with your experience? If not, you know what recommendations do you have for us? Those three questions? I think we’ll get you a good picture of what’s going on. I mean, i’ve had guests on who say the best survey is, like, five fewer questions. Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay, so short is not problematic. It all it’s preferred? Yeah, especially if you you know, you’re kind of you’re popping up at them. They’re coming to your sight because they’re trying to do something else. So you want to keep the survey short because you’re kind of interrupting their experience? What else can wait? Talk about around this? You’re going, you’re going to feel ninety minutes tomorrow. Well, let me add another more point about data again. I’m coming at this from persuaded emily. So i thought the data when emily stop, okay or you can talk about data. Whenever we took a breath, i thought that was the end of the day that i could talk for days about data e talking about okay, just the one small point i wanted to make again back to managing expectations, it’s away to also manage expectations your stakeholders had about people who are wedded to. We’ve always had this section on the website i love this information is valuable and it’s useful to be able to go to analytic state and say twenty, people visited this page in the last five years. We don’t need it. Okay? Spell, myth it’s also a legacy pages that people are tied to strongly, but nobody else cares it’s also testing out processes to like, how long does it take someone to actually make a donation or to find the volunteer form or something like that? Does it take to long for them to get there and they get tired of it? And they just leave, or does the executive director have an idea that they love this particular feature, but no one’s clicking on it or they wantto accident actually everyone’s clicking on it. And we don’t know that unless we actually get true user data, so it helps it. A lot of scenarios are based in reality. You know, the numbers no like yeah. All right. Uh, okay, so we still have you just took it five or six minutes together. What else can we talk about on this topic website? Redesigned. You promised a step by step guide. We missed any step. Well, there’s, plenty of stuff. Cemetery. Alright, so name some names, something we haven’t talked about it content auditing of your current site. So actually, i’m going to cut you off there, like three or four sessions ago, we talked about content, name another one and another step way of linking on it that we haven’t talked a lot of sessions, police about post launch care and the whole yeah, because to me kind of the laundry analogy to but to me, a website is a living, breathing thing. And just because you’re done with it, because it launched does not mean that it is done. You need to keep feeding that for google to pay attention to and for your users to pay attention to. You also need to be aware of the ongoing costs of maintaining the site and keeping it secure. Ilsen and already you have a laundry. Now you wanna bring laundry and maybe a lot of what you want. I’m thinking more about sort of laundry all of a sudden, you know, chris created out of no where in your hamper, because what happens is part of the consequence. If you’ve been really successful, i think in managing expectations and limiting the scope of your redesign and coming up with a very clean site, that means there are going to be items that fell off the must have list that are now on the might have list or nice to have list, but after launch that’s an opportunity to sort of incrementally add in some of the things you may have wanted to do earlier as budget becomes available. That’s part of what lisa was saying about it’s, an ongoing project not only maintenance but ongoing improvement i remember, but i used to work at a large non-profit before people with sort of a background in your television program, you would say that keep iooking cleanse the website done, and i think least i mentioned at the beginning of our talk it’s never done that’s an ongoing lisa, do you see? Oh, our emily also commonalities around things that people want but don’t really need or, you know, durney generalities about things that they say is a top priority, but really it’s, not any any generalizations you could make around that. How about home paint sliders? I was just thinking that way, but everybody loves big sliders, right? No one clicks on them. They really don’t know. They don’t stop it to go back. So many guys attract many home page sliders. Yes, they get teo slide too, i think. Yeah, they and then they go to what they really want. Okay, i think people, maybe this is at least as different impressions. But i think there’s just too much emphasis and too many politics around the home page and what goes on on the home page because most sites people are coming in sideways, you get a lot of people coming in. From search, especially if your sight is well designed and has, you know, all the ceo best practices. People will come in to your bog post or to your content pages, and they’ll never see your home page. And so in projects i’ve been involved with, the home page gets very political and can stall things. Okay, that’s, old thinking that everybody’s coming directly to our our main, our main domain. And everybody wants a piece of it. Yes, there’s a lot of fighting about. Okay, so you are generalizing about okay, george, as i was going to bring this up before, but yeah. There’s a lot of oh, you know, my department needs to go on the home page. This is very important. Very important to this organization. All right, all right. What else could we were going to flush out? A little bit more? Got another couple minutes left. What one thing is, i was going to advise i came up with a bunch of sort of tips and tricks. If you’re inside the organizations that have ways too, to keep your stakeholders, i was going to use the word under control. But that’s a bit of a loaded term, but back to the prioritization, you know, prioritization is really critical, you know, making those choices about what you want to do and there’s been lots of cases in several projects i’ve worked on when you know your stakeholders might have a long list of things they want to do. And as somebody who’s running a project it’s really important to learn how to say pick one really focuses the mind i sway for, you’re not going to need that. That sort of thing to really help helps sort of focus the issue. Everybody gets one right, you could. You could name as many as you like, but you’re gonna get one priority. Okay, okay, yeah buy-in talking to clients. I used to say to people, you know, we can do this, you know, or we could do this and that response, wass, what can we do both. So i have learned to rephrase it and say, here are three options, pick one, okay. We asked what you, uh so what do you love about the work that you do? You know, organizations i work within cos they’re so wide ranging that it always amazes me what you can learn, what you can pick up and all of the commonalities of them too, you know, there there’s so many things that they’re all trying to get across, even if they’re a tiny little organization. So it’s, um, and making a difference with it with the actual and product from what they can about you are what you love about this work. I think what’s really interesting about the work is one year’s going setting off on a website redesign you think you’re doing a technology project, and it almost inevitably ends up being a management project because i think we’ve alluded to it before that the company’s your organization’s website is really related to how it’s organised how the organization works and you end up sometimes having more conversations about how the organization works and how we’re running on what our strategies then, about technology, about the actual some introspection. Okay, emily, i’m gonna give you ten or fifteen seconds. What do you like? What you love about this work your work about the work that i d’oh. I mean, i like that it’s always changing. I specialize in data stuff and it’s a field that’s constantly evolving. So i like that aspect of being able teo, keep up on it and always be just like our websites. Yeah, conley evolving. Always changing. Never finished. All right, they’re orin levine, director of innovation at the international centre for journalists. Lisa lisa it’s. A guess off. Yeah. Sounder and creative. Director of gizmo creative factory and emily paterson, founder of be measured. Thanks so much for being with us. I think this interview like all of them here it eighteen ntc sponsored by network for good, easy to use dorner management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thanks so much for being with non-profit video coverage of the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference. We need to take a break. Wagner. Cps for pete’s sake, talk to you. Eat huge tomb. You know the man. You heard him on our four hundred show. Did he sound high pressure to you? Of course not. He sounded like the gentleman that he is gentlemanly and professional. Check out the farm of course. Got to do your due diligence. Do your research weinger cps dot com then pick up the phone. Talk to you, wagner, cpas dot com then moved to real life now tony steak too it’s finger wagging time. I want you to plan ahead so that you make time don’t just look for it try to find it. You make time for yourself yourself over labor day weekend time alone, its restorative you heard last week steve rio talk about thie the benefits throughout your day of of mindfulness and presence, and even maybe ah meditation for a couple of minutes. I mean, they do virtual meditations of bright webb, he said, every day for five minutes, take time for yourself. Make time for yourself over labor day weekend, even if even if part of it is a nap. It’s restorative, you’re in e-giving profession you give you give, you have to be a little selfish and take make that time for yourself wagging my finger and there’s a little bit more on that in the video at tony martignetti dot com what a pleasure to have amy sample ward back. She is our social media contributor. Ceo of intend the non-profit technology network her most recent court third book, social change, anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample board, dot or ge and at amy rs ward. Welcome back, amy. I think having me back, it’s always a pleasure. You’re always you’re always welcome back. This shouldn’t be a surprise. Should be a surprise to you. We always work well, i hope that you’ll let me know if i get cut from the roster will stop taking your calls. Know that we’ll have to wait on the phone. I’ll call in with a different say. I have a question to make up a different name. All right. Um, we’re talking about over marketing over marketing. This is a, uh, a bothersome thing for you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, i think it’s probably bothersome to everyone. That’s. Why it’s not successful? Yeah, it’s. In the long run, it annoys people and they turn off. Okay, i think that’s true. You know, maybe we’ll look att cem symptoms of over marketing so that you can do some self assessment. I think it’s it’s, probably one of these things is much easier to see in other people which may be coming totally right. I think it’s definitely hard to self diagnose your organization as an over marketer and instead very easy to look at other communications, other websites, what have you and feel like? Oh my gosh. You know and just to be clear, when i say over market and maybe this is a point of clarification between the two of us, i am curious how you define it. But for me, over marketing is when you market everything equally instead of choosing as an organization what your priorities are. Okay, so it seems very scattershot the marketing then from that those kinds of organizations very scattershot, everything is equally urgent. Everything is equal, equally impactful. Everything is, you know equally the thing that you want people to do right, then yeah. Okay, interesting might might my sense of it is it’s it’s i’m more looking at the frequency you know, if i get too many emails too many if i see your twitter you know, blowing up my twitter stream you know, i see i see too much from you it’s it’s too much it well in however, you define the time but e i’m seeing too much, um, well, and i think that that frequency piece could is, you know, one of the ways that over marketing manifest, because you could also say that it, um, you know, separate from frequency, it could just be type it could be that you are just like your web site is, you can’t even navigate it because every single thing has to have its own space on your home page that’s the call to action and whatever, you know, there’s different ways that it might manifest, but frequency certainly is a big one. Ok? And christie’s bleed over. I mean, you know, if your if your website has everything is an equally high priority, then that’s the trouble you were, you know, that’s, the trouble that you’re that bothers you the most is that every everything is urgent going on and everything has a page, every page is called action. You know, his first came to me as an idea because someone sent me an email with i printed it. It’s literally the the email signature is a half a page and i did not printed in eighteen point five i put it in twelve point fund. A very reasonable size. I’m this person’s email signature is a half takes up a half a page, right? I’m sure that the emails they’re sending two people are, you know, a very reasonable, like hi, tony, and then a couple sentences and thanks so much. And yet their signature is three times that. Yeah, yeah. Or more. It’s, you know, there’s itt’s. Well, i gave it away. It’s a he you know, it’s it’s it’s filled up with i mean there’s like zoho linked in you are el there’s a well there’s there’s web sites. There’s a you are elves, but then they’re not linked. And then separately there’s www the length number one w w was like number two and number three and there’s the mailing address and there’s. Ah, fax number off a twenty eighteen a fax number on then there’s and then there’s some congratulate, you know, self promotion stuff about anniversaries. How long he’s been in different lines of business and it’s it’s a half a page. So that’s what? Put this on my radar? You know, i guess i’ve subconsciously i’ve probably been thinking noticed it certainly, but tio got into my consciousness and i asked you about it and you said, whoa drives me crazy. So so here we are here we are. I’m just commiserating in the things that drives, but it’s for a good purpose, we’re helping where i’m not complained, my larry david, i’m not i’m not complaining, i’m helping, but, you know, what’s so interesting to me about that, like, the starting place where this conversation is that so many organizations, i don’t think, ever think about the signature line of there down both from the perspective that that, uh, i mean, that’s, you know, hundreds if you count all of your different staff, hundreds of messages a day to community members that could be reinforcing your organization’s brand or voice or mission having a standard, you know, signature block for everyone in your staff that, you know, great, everybody has the right information there, we probably don’t need to list our fax machine, you know, for all of those things because i see so many times where you know, one person, one organization writes at one way another person you can’t they don’t have a signature block, all you see is like, thanks, amy and me, but who? Are you, you know, co-branded spectrum that’s a missed place for just reinforcing the brand of the organization, but so few organizations know that you’re their signature block is kind of a passive called toe action space. Um, and at intend, we test that and we have a we use our goal for non-profits account, and that allows us if anyone listening uses the google suite for your organizations, you have, you know, females, you know, you could just administer as an organization what everyone’s you could add, like a call to action at the bottom of of the signature, and you don’t have to worry that some staff forgot to put it in, like, you could just administer that, and it is immediately in place for all of your emails, and we change that regularly, but we also track that and, you know, there are people that click on that signature link where we’re promoting that and you see and actually click through and register. So it is a place to call people to action. It is not necessarily a place to successfully call them toe action with eighteen different things that you’re saying, you know, it needs to just be one and have it be something that’s actually relevant to why you’re emailing people vs maybe, you know, links all of these different awards and promotions. You actually test different signatures. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Eminently doable. Eminently testable. You know us, we test everything. Okay. That’s, you technology network? Yes. Bonem all right. So let’s, let’s encourage some self assessment. We just have about a minute or so before before taking the first break. Um, i thought of i thought of some symptoms that you might that that that maybe hitting you in the face if you’re if your engagement numbers are declining, if you’re if you’re of actual follower numbers or connections, if that’s, you know, if people are dropping off that way, so i thought of either one of those, you know, people might still be following you, but they’re not engaging that’s, that’s bad or they might just stop following you or being connected. No thing can in fact, tonight, adam a nuance to those numbers. Certainly it’s healthy to have people stop following you on twitter or toe unsubscribes miree male because it means people are reading it and it no longer, you know the priority in their life, it’s not the topic that they care about it’s. Fine, you don’t need to feel bad of someone on subscribe to the newsletter but that’s the point you’re making tony is that if you are getting in ten people unsubscribes sections one new person subscribing then your ratio is a little off you want tohave, you know more people continuing to subscribe. Then you have a fall back off. Thank you for refining my point. Thank you. I mean, i mean that generally we gotta take a break. Take a break. Tell us enough with the talis moughniyah. Lt’s you’ve heard them. You’ve heard them from charities that referred companies for credit card processing and, of course, those charities air getting that revenue each month that long tail you’ve heard the talis moughniyah, lt’s from companies who are using tello’s for credit card processing. I bet you could use more revenue. Tell us long stream of revenue. You know how this works? You refer cos they take on tell owes you the non-profit get fifty percent of the revenue from those fees. Watch the video at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us now. Back to amy sample board. Thank you for that indulgence. Yes. All right. So, indeed, big numbers, you know, that’s bad and unsustainable. You know, you’ve got your tenant followers a day and one new follower, your that’s that’s, not sustainable. Um, let’s. See, um, if you i thought you know how about reading your own stuff reading your own to spend a little time romping through your own, you know, your own twitter stream your own instagram, facebook, these things boring you your own website, have you read? Have you read the last a couple of weeks of content on your website? A few if you have something that’s regularly updated that that often does it bore you? I would say that’s a bad somebody i think what’s interesting about that suggestion and that so many people we’ll overlook is that we, of course i have read all of it listed it, right? So the idea that we would go back and look at it feels like some time wasted because, of course we wrote those tweets. Are we, you know, posted those pictures? Never, but the value in what you’re suggesting is not look at any of those. Single post it’s look your feed without looking at your whole timeline or whatever, right? Like, just look at for twitter, profile and all the content in order that’s been posted or your instagram profile or your website, because that’s where you can really start to see from your followers perspective or your community’s perspective. Whoa, you know, this is this is what it felt like, or this is what it sounded like. I think that’s something we don’t do often enough it’s organizations because we don’t feel like we need to, because we’ve already reviewed all that content when we posted it individually. Yeah, we wrote it ourselves see, this is this is why you’re an author, co author of two books, and i’ve never written a book because you you put a finer point on it. No, i’m the shallow guy, i got this idea and then you refine it, give it depth and meaning and eso like on the comic book writer, and you’re the you’re the writer of books that actually get published by, you know, by well known publishing companies. Yeah, but i haven’t even done one of those yet. Yeah, ok. Er and you just and i’ve been thinking about it, and you just heard it. And you you put you put, you add depth and, uh, greater meaning to it. So thank you. What a team. You know, good teamwork. Yeah, work. If i didn’t have this show, you could because, you know, i don’t think you need me to get started, but i need you to add the depth and the color enough beating myself up. Okay. Um, no. I’m having fun doing it. So what are you? Nobody. Nobody listens to this show anyway, so nobody here’s the nobody here is the self loathing. Oh, that’s not true. Thousands of people listening. Yes. Don’t remind everybody said you have more in your list in this moment. Don’t remind me more of my list more my list. What of these of these things? I have more. I have things on my list. I can add, um, i have one more staff complaints if the staff, if the staff is feeling that their content is you know, however, they describe stale o r, you know, repetitive. You want to pay a lot of attention to that because they’re the ones producing the content. So if staff or if you’re hearing from staff, i think that’s a bad sign, what do you what do you have totally eye? You know, now i feel obligated to add depth and color all of your suggestions, but the piece that i would add there is i feel like it’s, not just staff saying that it’s repetitive, but the conversations that you might over here amongst your staff that are kind of like a warning sign warning flag that you’re maybe doing over marketing is when people are saying, you know, i’m marketing this in someone else’s say, no, the postcards you know, went out yesterday for this someone else, eh? Zoho on twitter were saying that you have people, you know, you’re cross team isn’t talking about the same thing, then you’re probably doing, you know, equal parts promotion of five different things at once and that just naturally not going to be a successful your community members can’t take in five different request to do something that are different and actually do them all for you. Very bad sign if there’s conflicting messages across your across your team, i thought it was this i thought this was the priority, right? Okay, what else? What else do you have on your symptom symptom list? Well, i don’t have as many symptoms. I have a list that’s, more like things that you khun d’oh. Okay, um, yeah, okay, we could switch over there. I’m game for some guests. I would say you’re not a baby, we can talk about a few things underneath is i really liked the idea for organizations, you know, of course, we all know that we should have, like, a content calendar and marketing plan and all of these things. But the reality is i’m going toe just operate within reality that we don’t have those things or we have them and they’re not updated or or or whatever. So instead of saying, oh, just go finish off that editorial calendar that you should have instead of that recommendation, i’d say just pick a team. It could be every month it could be based on certain weeks that, you know, we’re leading up to events, whatever. And having a team i think, really helps people across the organization, you know, in whichever team there in know that they can still talk about their team. Or their program or their service. But do it in a way that still aligned and advancing whatever over our james focus organizationally needs to be the priority. So it maybe we can use in ten for an example. Course i could speak to that, so we might say, ok, this month’s needs to be focused on the ntc, but we still have membership campaigns that happened, we still have course promotions that need to happen, you know, where there’s still all this other work, but we don’t need to be saying register for the nbc become a member. Sign up for this course that’s happening next week, you know, apply for this program because that’s not going that’s, where we get into the half a page email signature, you know, someone said saint arthur, steam is auntie si lets people say culwell instead of just talking about membership, i’ll talk about how members engaged at the ntc instead of just talking about, of course, next week, i’ll say this course has a similar topic at the mtc, and this is a way for you to continue your learning. You know, it just gives people more oven umbrella that they can talk about their programs while still staying. Kind of on message. Okay, yeah. I can i can i can toss out one for recommendation, and that is to put yourself on your own lists, make sure that you are seeding yourself so that you’re seeing the feed, the posts, hearing the podcast, whatever it is the same way, same frequency as everybody else. Yeah, and then had a way to do that. It’s not just getting your own organizations emails, because to your point, there are lots of different channels were using in ten does this and i’ve talked to a number of our other organizations who do this, too, whether you use black, which is kind of an internal messaging tool, or you have an internet or whatever tool you’re using for kind of internal content and conversation. Most of those tools there’s probably a way where you can have your organization’s account, your twitter account, instagram show up in there and that way you have essentially, you know, one channel in slack or whatever you used that just is showing all of your tweets, so not only can you see when a tweet has gone out, but what it was about, and then you can very easily scroll through and say oh, my gosh, way! Look at what we have been saying or what we haven’t been saying or whatever on dh you don’t have to say, okay, now everyone on staff has to create a twitter account and go follow the organization and check it every day. You can just pull it into a central system so everyone can see it. I see. Excellent. Okay, okay. She’s, the co author times two. Amazing. All right, let’s, take another break. Okay, let me take a break text to give you’ll get more revenue because text to give makes e-giving easy for your donors. If your donors can send a text message, they could make a donation to u not only simple also affordable and secure the way to get more info and to claim your special listener offer you text npr two, four, four, four, nine nine nine couldn’t be any simpler. Npr. Four, four, four, nine, nine, nine we’ve got about six more minutes for over marketing with amy um, we run really medicine, okay? Please go ahead. So this suggestion is coming from a place where at and ten, we have definitely seen return on the work, but also in recognition that if you’re if you’re organization is suffering from over marketing, you’re already putting in the time to do a bunch of work so let’s just move that work to something else, and that is the idea of promo, okay, it’s, not just for your big annual fundraiser or, you know, once a year event for anything programs for things that are year round, even creating again, you’re already doing this work because you’re already over marketing, so instead of putting it all out as an organization, all the work you did to come up with those tweets or those block post or whatever put them into, you know, a a shared document or a wiki or google doc or whatever, and instead of sharing them on your own feed, share them with community members that can that are interested in that that maybe participate in that program before whatever that they want to be out in the community scene is talking about your work and promoting it and it’s still getting out there. People are still hearing about your programs, but you aren’t saying okay, well, our twitter feed today is going to have to cover all ten of these topics you say today we’re covering this topic, but we know that we’ve supported community members and they have access to these promo kits. Tio help us spread the word excellent using yes using your most dedicated constituents, friends, followers sort of a back channel way of getting them to help you promote board members boardmember could be idea for that, right? Okay, are for sure, all right, i’m going to get one out because i know you’re going to say it, i’m gonna get out first, okay? If you feel you’re over marketing on promoting your own work, share the work of others instead. So the obvious, you know, sharing on facebook, facebook shares, they’re so they’re so rare. Now facebook shares please share other people’s content obviously twitter, the re tweets on twitter or you go or spend that time going out and finding, you know, curating the content of others and sharing that because, you know, it’s relevant to your community. I know you’re going to say that yes, well and i think something to remember to when when you’re thinking about content and mixing it up so that it isn’t just you talking. About the thing that you want people to do over and over, another place where you could look to content in addition to sharing, of course, you know that i’m always going to say, share other people’s work and rise up the community is just as you are doing, too be the one that reminds your community that they can take a break, that they can have fun, that the world is really hard, it feels right now, and so much is going on, and we’re always asking our community to take action to support us, whether it’s fund-raising or advocacy or local actions. But maybe you are also building community and building trust with them by being the voice that says, you know, we hope that you take a saturday off and just be with your family or go to the zoo her, you know, go for a hike and and you aren’t always calling them toe action that you’re also treating them as full people that need to take a break and be healthy too. Yeah, that space space critical. We had steve rio on last week talking a lot about that he’s. Interesting do you know, do you know steve rio, bright webb? I don’t know. And i know i heard he’s, based in vancouver. Andi has twenty five employees. Maybe that includes contractors, but they’re all over north america. Very interesting. Okay. Um, they do. They have. They have virtual meditations. You probably heard me or not. Uh, not not mandatory optional, but they do a forty five minute virtual meditation every day a couple times a week. Sorry. Three times, three times a week? Um, yeah, i think yeah. Mindfulness, you know, presence. Oh, and, you know, there’s there’s research that shows that that that helps you be be more efficient in your in your workday. Um, every sample would really have, like, two minutes left. Um, you have another. You wantto recommend something else. If you feel you’re over marketing, do you have another recommendation? While the other piece that i was going to suggest is kind of the office that and that is just in case there are listeners who are, like, no, our problem is that we never marketed anything we never, you know, actually promote ourselves because it’s all you know, maybe they’re your web site is is just kind of content, because your programs or your round and you don’t feel like you have timely things, so if somehow you are on the opposite end of the conversation and feel like you need more help finding ways teo to market, i would say, just look through whether that’s, your social media accounts, your website, whatever and look for those empty spaces places that i think organizations could really take advantages putting in in their twitter bio or their instagram bio, or whatever that you know, a girl that shows up right there and the short kind of narrative box you have to write something, put what feels more like a timely kind of a call to action or reference a campaign that you’re running or whatever that is, and put a girl in there that doesn’t just go to your home page, same with your email signature. Look for those empty spaces where you can make it feel more timely instead of just the permanent kind of here’s our home page here’s, what we do here is our mission statement she’s amy sample ward she’s the author i’m not you’ll find her at, you’ll find her and amy sample ward. Dot or go! And also you should be following the woman for god’s sake, twitter is so much wisdom coming follow-up for god’s sake that’s the end of it just for pizza. Just follow at amy rs ward. Thank you, amy. Thank you, tony. My pleasure always next week. Maria semple returns with real estate for prospect research. If you missed any part of today’s show i deceit, you find it on tony martignetti dot com. We are sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com by telus credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tony dahna may slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four nine nine, nine a creative producers clam meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative network, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c buy-in. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Yeah. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv, then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dole. Check your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. Catch my show secrets of the sire at its new prime time slot. Wednesdays, eight p m eastern time, and get the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. For more info, go to secrets of the sire dot com hyre. You’re listening to talking on turn their network at www. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 17, 2018: Branding & Focus and Attention

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James Wu, Kristyna Jones & Rhiannon Tasker: Branding
How do you get people to care about your brand and your cause when there’s so much noise out there? It helps to be inclusive and authentic. Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference (18NTC) explains how. They’re James Wu, brand consultant; Kristyna Jones with Brothers Empowered 2 Teach; and Rhiannon Tasker from The Public Theater.

 

 

Steve Rio: Focus and Attention
Steve Rio has been researching the intersection of mindfulness, creativity and productivity. He’s CEO of Briteweb.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host today’s show is dedicated to my mom. She would have been eighty five today would have been her eighty fifth birthday. Hi, mom. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with zoho no sis, if you made me sick with the idea that you missed today’s show co-branding how do you get people to care about your brand and your cause? When there’s so much noise out there, it helps to be inclusive and authentic. Our panel from the non-profit technology conference eighteen ntc explains how they’re james woo brand consultant christina jones with brothers empowered to teach and ran in tasker from the public theater and focus and attention, steve rio has been researching the intersection of mindfulness, creativity and productivity. He’s ceo of bright webb on tony’s steak, too, baby boomers, we’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tello’s durney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream tony dahna may slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four four nine, nine nine here is branding from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc that’s, a non-profit technology conference in new orleans hosted by the non-profit technology network interview like all our eighteen ntcdinosaur views is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests are james wou christina jones and ran in tasker. James is an independent brand consultant. Christina is co founder and ceo. Seo of brothers empowered to teach by here in new orleans. Andre hannan tasker is donor communications project manager at the public theater. Welcome. Thank you for having a pleasant have all three of you. Your workshop topic is branding for the apocalypse very ominous how to get people to care about your cause when everything is horrible. Okay, eyes the horrible that we’re, uh, is part of the horrible that we’re thinking about the current political environment and how there’s something new every couple of hours. Do you like he’s a crisis? Yes, that that is exactly what we’re talking. About that was certainly that’s the driver of the conversation and that i remember one day, you know, logging off twitter for about thirty minutes, coming back on and literally, there are six new horrible things that happened that we’re very much tied to the current political climate in the country we just learned a couple hours ago that paul ryan is not going to run for for the house in wisconsin. Well, there you go. Speak something about what’s going on on dh there’s news like that very, very often. Yeah, our challenge is to stand out, okay? Apocalyptic? Yeah, we have an apocalyptic e i mean, i think that the khan, the environment that we’re in right now is very divided. And no matter how quickly things change and how every how fast news is happening, it still feels like we’re in a very sort of divided world in the way that we’re feeling after post election, especially no matter what side you’re on it’s feeling very divided and very sort of there’s a lot of tension right now, and so it feels a little bit of tense and uncomfortable sometimes, okay, but, kristina, we can’t overcome your your organ has done it. I guess you’ve got some lessons to share. Yes, i think that we have overcome that because one of the things that we always do, regardless of what’s happening politically in the world stay true to who we are is an organization. So, you know, part of you know, your branding is sort of interpreting that message for what’s happening in the world as long as it’s a part of who you are. Okay, so, is that your first advice for rising above this noise is staying true. Yes, you are. I think so. I think what happens when we have these, you know, something, something that happens with non-profit sometimes is that wear always putting out a fire, right? We’re responding to a crisis. And in responding to those crises, sometimes we can lose a part of who we are or staying kind of on message of what we’re trying to accomplish or what our mission is. And so i think it was sort of like being i think i used on the panel today is like being a bully and a storm, right? So that’s, my part might take. Okay, so your panel’s already done. You’re relaxing them. That’s. Right, guys, take it easy on us. All right? Congratulations. Yeah, this is fun. This is not from radio. No, no, you got yours here. Anything okay? And i gather from the session description. Christina and rhiannon. You’ve taken two different approaches in terms of politics. Hyre christina apolitical. Pretty much staying mostly apolitical and reaction. Uh, using the arts to be political, using theater to be political. Yeah. Anything, something about the public theater as we try and represent all sort of views were opened everyone and we want to tell all stories and especially in our branding, we did the same thing where we said, very true to who we were as an organization and the urgency that people are few going in the community in the power of storytelling, to sort of tell people to share different perspectives and the power that storytelling really has. Teo help people feel like they understand a different viewpoint than their own, whether that’s, depending on all sides of the political spectrum, i mean the public theater being in new york city, we do tend to lean a certain way, but we try toe be as open just all, all voices in all stories on dh, hopefully help other people understand, especially as i said, we’re divided right now, helping understand other people and under perspective helps sort of refused attention and help people come in issues in a different way. James, i think it’s pretty well recognized that storytelling is critical. We’re not a theater group that has a stage literally, yeah, how can we effectively, compellingly is better. Tell tell, have the storytelling or telling ourselves yeah, yeah, that is a great question and one question, that question that doesn’t have fans, we have to have a fan, i have know that we’re seeing a james now you both way or lindsay is a small town, there was astra, everybody about each other’s people and your, uh, your home i’m leaving now way that was legitimate, okay, just kind of make up having any family. So how do we do this compelling? You know, that’s a great question is actually question that came up in a in our panel conversation today from the audience and ran and answered it beautifully, and i’ll try my best kind of encapsulate her great response in that. At the end of the day, yes, we might not be affiliated with an organization that is in the arts or in the future, or use this storytelling as the primary medium or platform. But the work that were in in the nonprofit world is all about human stories, right, it’s all about change and transformation within humans and communities that they dwell in, that we serve. And so i think at the end of the day, you know, you might not have art as kind of the channel for telling these stories. But the better you can get at telling very human stories that connect to people at a very human emotional level. I think that’s, where you get really, really, really power. How do you do drill down into that? Getting that making that connection with with the leader of the viewer? S o i think one of the mistakes that a lot of organizations do is they get caught up in kind of explaining their model like this is our theory of change. And this is here all of our programs, right? We invest in building community, we invest in entrepreneurs, whatever it is way train leaders instead of thinking about why, like, why do you exist? What is your purpose? What is your reason for being right? If you can start there, then you can begin inspire people in a way that if you start talking about your products and programs, you might lose them. Right? So if you can start with why you exist, really drill down and get to your core purpose. I think anyone can really identify with that. Begin. Teo, resonate with that message. It’s. Time for a break pursuant the round up the fund-raising round up it’s called the pursuing e-giving outlook. They took all the latest fund-raising reports. Boiled it down to just what you need to know. Plus they did a webinar on it. And you can watch the archive of that it’s, an ensemble piece, the content paper and the webinar both. Are on the listener landing page that is at tony dot m a slash pursuant remember the capital p for please. Now, back to branding. Cristina’s doing a lot of nodding. Yeah, i what’s your way, you know, brothers and power to teach, unlike the public fears only four years old, right? Um and so we’re still kind of a startup, but when we first started, it was very much like, this is our model. We have these three steps. This is what we do, and people would be like dahna and so when we started telling the story about why we do the work and why we think the way we do, it matters, it was much easier for people to connect. And so i think that that’s really, really important and you’re trying to get black men to go into teaching, right? Right? Education. That’s right, brothers? Yeah. Weather’s empowered to teach brothers and power to teach and sister bras and power to teach. But, yes. Okay. Okay. Uh, and you’re you feel like you’re creating a lot of boats and a lot of conversation around your mission. How? Yeah, on the way of rising above you, get talking about you? Yeah, i mean, uh, one of the things that i said today was that, like, show up, right? So we show up to lots of different things, and we show up in lots of different ways. So we participate in lots of activities going on around town related to the issues that we work on, but also on larger issues like there’s, an initiative in new orleans called forward together politicians non-profits people who work in the private sector come together, so we go to those things. We’re all constantly wearing a b, right? So that’s one of your share, one of the ways we show up the every way is that we know on your shoulder turned my shoulder way. We have young people who are very much engaged in the work that we do, and so they do a lot of videos for us. They do a lot of tweeting for us. They we do a lot of social activities, so people see us collectively together, and they’re like, what, that beaming? What hashtag real bro teach? What does that mean? So that’s how we really driven people to think about it, brandon, how about the public theater. How are you creating buzz conversation about about the pub. I mean, the public theater is a definitely a growing brand, especially in new york city. We had hamilton, which was like a huge, huge threat. Hamilton before was on broadway. Yeah, we created hamilton here the way we did the workshops and, like, sort of helped. It could be that show. And then we did the first production. That was the production that moved to broadway. So we had a lot of sort of, like buzz from that show. And i were now in the place of like, okay, now that hamilton’s sort of moved on, continuing those conversations and keeping us in the forefront of people’s mind as a theatrical in student as well. Civic inge institution. We hold a lot of talk are that are hosted the republic form team at our home in astor place. We also were doing them a delacorte. We hold other sort of initiatives. We did. Voter registration was a big thing. We had a table on our lobby on bistro. Participated with other non-profit geever okay. Interesting voter registration. That’s. Um, that’s. Not something that intuitively i would. Link with with a theater? Yeah, it was initiative that was started by believing playwrights horizons. They got theaters throughout the country to set up voter registration foods for when people came and saw shows they could register for vote while they’re like waiting in line or internet during intermission or after the show. And the idea is just to help people engage civically within their communities in the country by voting, and we had a huge turnout. We also did some pushes on our social media and through emails, and we got a lot of people registered to vote and it’s our way of sort of helping people just be active within our community and engage socially not just with the conversations that we’re having with the work we’re resenting, but just like in the real world outside of what’s on our stage is james, you’re our resident consultant. How generally, how can we create conversation and buzz around our work? I mean, i think we just heard some great examples, but beyond those, yeah, i think it does at the end of the day, come back to having a clear sense of who you are, but also who your audience is and we talked a lot today about authenticity, right? Yeah, doing here too, yeah, allowed on non-profit radio on and i think the theme of authenticity is something that we keep the three of us keep coming back to and is a common thread in all of our work. But, you know, like rian instead of beginning organization that’s yours and organizations that tend to shift their messaging or change, they are in response to what’s happening the world today without remaining true to kind of their core purpose or kind of their their identity. I think there’s a real danger, they’re kind of losing sight of what you’re all about and why you exist. I think when you have a clear sense of who you are and more importantly, how your audience connects with that, then that kind of authenticity shines through no matter what is happening around you. And i’m sure these to concede say more about that. Yeah, i think a lot of the questions we have today, no matter what the question was, are always kind of brought back to that authenticity and who you are and sticking true to who you are. Whether it is like a post election end of your campaign where there’s a little different urgency within it, it’s still about those fundamental things that make your organization what it is people are going to see right through you if you’re trying to, like, do something urgent, that doesn’t feel authentic or real because they don’t want to give money to an organization that’s not going to do something with it, that’s what that is fundamental to who they are, and so the public theater and, like we have always stuck true to those values that were theater of by and for the people on that culture belongs to everyone one and this is we are places, storytelling, and those are the things that are important to us and just framing it in the way of the moment of it, whether it’s urgency or what, no matter what it is, it is it’s still, those things at every question we got today, we kept coming back to that authenticity and who you are, because, christina, you’re not only alienating your mission, but you’re also alienating your core supporters, right? You’re awful, haley expecting work for you, you and your employees, your staff, they have certain expectations. Now we’re adjusting just because there’s tha multi in the in the political economy, right? Exactly. I mean, we think of our brand is a person, right? So one of the activities we did when we did our brand refresh was okay. His brothers and power to teach was a person who are they use a person? This ah, james is a user persona, or i think that’s part of it certainly part of it and so, you know, kept coming up with all the things that we already do that sort of reinforce who we are as a person, so we’re twenty something creative, collaborative, fresh and fashionable group what we read, what we listen to way to our podcast, you know, all about those things that connects our brand to people who want to hear about the work we’re doing in more detail, and it translates into the photos we take into our website. All of those things signify that you think, tony, you just used an interesting word a minute ago, and then there was expectation, and i think, that’s one thing that we actually didn’t talk a lot about. Directly today but certainly was a theme that i see woven in a lot of the work, especially the tactics that both of your organizations have used in the past year and can be something as small as the public theater in there. You’re an fund-raising campaign last year instead of their typical just we’re just going toe send email after email appeal at the end of the year asking for our audience to give us money they actually hand wrote notes on postcards thanking people for their contributions for their engagement, a very analog old school approach in this very hyper, you know, social media, digital world, and they saw a huge bump in terms of kind of hoping to see a big bump in terms of renewal sze but did see a big bump in terms of engagement, justin, based in response to that tactic, which so that kind of analog very old fashioned, if you will approach really, really cut through the clutter when you’re just getting bombarded on social media or email today and similarly with brothers empire to teach, i think one of the things that was really interesting when they were going through their brand refresh. They had an exercise where there, you know, looking at something as mundane as colors which should our color palette be that represents our visual identity. It’s a very standard part of any branding exercise. But the way that they thought about colors was really provocative for me. And i should probably just, like christina tell the story herself. But essentially, you know what? What i heard was correct me if i’m wrong that yeah, you tell us. Thank you. S r color palette is soft. So its environs so it’s yellow, teal of, like, a lavender. And i grayce right. And the reason for those colors is because we did this today we had all feel like you’re hearing. Yes, you’re going down going down with you. Eventually wei had everybody close their eyes and say and think to themselves, not necessarily share like you think of a young black man. What do you see? Right? And so when they open their eyes and said the reason these colors are the colors they are because they signify liveliness and collaboration and nurturing. So a softening of the idea of a young black man is because we want people to see young men as nurturers, right as having potential to nurture so that’s why our color palette is the way it is. We talked about this idea of i used to come from the international development world in this this expression or phrase club poverty porn. But if you’ve heard that but it’s kind of this, you know, in our imagery we either really negative imagery that’s very exploitive in an effort to raise money and awareness, right? So malnourished kids and sub saharan african with flies on their faces, right? That kind of creates this sympathy or pity. On the other hand, the pendulum has swung in the complete opposite direction in the last five, ten years, where everyone uses just images filled with happiness and optimism and joy. And i feel like there needs to be a recall calibration again and something that’s kind of in between that prevent presents a mork, nuanced complete hole and maybe complex picture of what the issues are that we’re dealing with in the communities that we’re serving. I think that there’s a real danger and kind of dumbing down your message rebrand or simplifying it to say, this is this is who we are, this is what we’re all about and it’s it’s kind of playing into what people expect right versus some little what brothers in power to teach duitz he said, how do we create an image that is more about fostering this nurturing environment? And then also in some of the photographs, you see it’s, like, sometimes it’s really struggle on diversity that you see sometimes it’s real celebration enjoy and just the complete humanity that’s presented kind of a whole human being, i think that’s um, something that we don’t see enough of today, christine what’s a home run for you is that when when someone decides to and embark on a career in education is that i like the grand slam home run and a stadium fans would be if a young man starts with us and doesn’t want to teach, and by the time he leaves he’s like you know what i’m going to teach. So that’s that’s a grand slogan, the basic home run is basically a young man who should, who may want to teach what isn’t really sure and decides to teach, but we’ve had a lot of success with guys who had no intention of teaching because only three percent of all the teachers in the entire country are black men, they don’t see themselves and teaching, so the idea that they now see themselves with the teacher or working in education period is like, phenomenal, really, yeah, and you talked a bit about inclusive hyre say more about that in terms of the public’s brand. How do you feel being inclusive sets you? Aside from competition in new york city, the public theater, it’s one of our fundamental sort of missions is tio provide theatre to everyone no matter what background you are. And i mean, if we dio free shakespeare in the park where we give one hundred thousand tickets, world class shakespeare every summer, all for free heart is held to get to former new york come on, we’re making i mean that’s the thing that they are hard to get, people have to wait in line for hours. So what? We’re taking steps to make it easier to get tickets for everyone. So we do distributions in all five boroughs. We like what they’re like throughout the week we’ll be, we’ll be in queens one. Week will be in brooklyn will be in the bronx and staten island dahna distributing tickets there so that they don’t have to come into the city, wait in line for hours, maybe, or maybe not, get a ticket and then wait until the show in the evening. It’s a more accessible moment for them to get tickets there. We also have a digital online lottery so people could do it from work or from where they are. We do a lottery downtown, it are after a place home. So again, you’re not waiting in line. You can come enter the lottery, get john, be quick, we so we are trying to you offer more and more opportunities to help like to help expand who is seeing the theater versus the people who are able to write in line. We also do the mobile unit, which takes shakespeare to prisons, homeless shelters and community centers do out all five boroughs, and we do that twice a year. Once a year, we’ve now expanded twice a year, their twenty stopped tour, and then they come downtown and dio a three week, three week run at our theater and astor place and all those tickets are also free inclusion. Yeah, well, i just want to talk about. No, but the wraps. Okay, what else could we talk about you, you had your your workshop. We’ve got another five minutes or so together. What happened? We touched on anybody that we want to. You did ninety minutes. I know. We’re all talked out questions, maybe questions you got that we haven’t talked about yet. Well, one thing that that we didn’t that didn’t come up, that some folks ask me after our panel was, you know, it’s it’s interesting because you have a very founder lead organising your small organization, you’re young organization upmifa on the contrary, public theatre has been around for sixty five years, almost and their founder is not, you know, directly involved anymore, but oscar eustis who’s been there for how long? It was ten years when i started so twelve, thirteen years he’s kind of an iconic institution in another sound. And so how do you think about brandon relation too? The founders personality, and if you work in an organization that doesn’t have a strong founder with that really influences that culture than then what do you do? I don’t know if you guys have thoughts on that. Well, i’ve worked in no book fired-up buy-in my previous career, i was investment banker, community development and one organisation i work for went through a big brand refresh the founder had long been gone and what they did. Internally was sort of theater does with the stash and sent out a survey. Like, who are we way say we are. Who do you think we are? Wait, you think we should be? And they did a whole entire brand refresh based on sort of who’s in the building. Now, who works for the company now? Why did they come to this place to work here? And i think they did a great job rebranding themselves. Enterprise community partners. I haven’t looked at co-branding lately, but a few years ago, they did that. I thought that was a really great way to do it when you don’t have a strong founding founders culture anymore. The founder has, you know, your organization has evolved over the years. You’ve had another executive director, but you still want to stay kind of truth to your original mission. I thought that that was a great way, actually. Survey surveyed the staff surveyed the stand. Why are you here? Right? Right. Right. And i guess you know another question. Taking that a step further that i get all the time. Okay? We were sold. We should go through a branding exercise. That brand refresh. If you will, how do we get the leaders of our organization on board? How do we get the entire staff on board to really buy into this? So this doesn’t just feel like a bunch of pretty words that we stick in a mark getting drawer, but has riel impact on how we show up in every department throughout the organization every single day. So how do we get that buy-in that’s my question, i don’t know, i mean, you guys are both live and breathe this every single day, and i’m happy to share my thoughts, but i mean it’s, the public theater is such a deeply rooted mission and oscar, whose artistic director really lives and breathes the mission of the public and truly the people who work there want to be there. I want to be there for the mission of the public it’s, you know, it’s non-profit you want to be there for that, you you want to be there to help give thousands of people free tickets in the park and the work that goes behind it and to create good work. So we are kind of in a a very lucky situation and that we are very, very rooted in our mission and our brandon who we are on it, it stuns from having a strong artistic director leader who any speech he gives any from, like a staff meeting, agreed to the delicate and opening night of shakespeare in the park. It is so rooted and who we are and so rooted in the deep belief of who we are every so it really helps everyone in the organization really get behind it because you know that you’re working towards something not for our leader believes and i also that’s something that we believe in a cz group and as a theatre, so we’re kind of we’re lucky and that our way it’s so embedded in us is a public you don’t know, a lot of cedars don’t necessarily even have that theater is not something that people think of in these huge, huge, deeply founded missions and values and big we have brought their broad and really lofti of culture belongs to everyone and theatre should be free for all and all those things that but there are things to aspire to and there things that we all are working towards. Is an organization, james, if we don’t enjoy that luxury that the public has yeah, you yeah, i think one of the biggest things that i tried it teach my clients is that when they’re going through branding, exercise, it’s really critical to bring the entire organization on board throughout the process, right? There’s, nothing worse than going through a six month rebranding and the leadership says tata, we’re done look at our new brand and he says, what, like, how come i didn’t have my how come i wasn’t hurt happened? I didn’t get a chance to weigh in or at least share my opinions or and so i think that’s a really, um, the fine line between, you know, a successful branding and co-branding that ends up failing one of the i think it comes down to when you’re when you’re developing a mission or purpose statement, if you’re developing core values for the organization that you don’t fall into the trap, which is choosing empty words, right? We’ve also core values like empathy, innovation, honesty, well, who’s, who’s not going to be honest, like, who wants to be the opposite of that, right? So those kind of be empty, meaningless core values. How can you create a set of values that really change the way we show up to work every single day? And so one of the things that i do is my clients is after we have this branding, we bring everyone along throughout the process there entirely bought in, we say, okay, now we have this new set of values. Now we have these new purpose. Maybe we’ve written a manifesto. Really? Look at these words break up into teams. So finance department, accounting department marketing department operations team i want you each to go and meet and look at these words and really understand what they mean and have a conversation about what’s going to change. What you going to start doing mohr of today that you’re not doing enough of what you going to stop doing as a result of the language on the words at the end of the day, a lot of rebranding tze come down to a language and words and the intention that you put into those really can go a long way. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there, ok? Alright, right they are james woo, independent brand. Consultant christina jones, co founder, ceo of brothers empowered to teach rehan in tasker dahna communications project manager at the public theater. Thank you all. Thank you all very much things interview scheduled sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donor-centric software for now. Non-profits thank you so much for being with non-profit radio coverage of eighteen. Auntie si. We need to take a break. Regular cps, please talk to eat. Which tomb? You heard him on the four hundredth show. Plus he’s. Been a guest on the show a couple of times. Check out the firm. Of course. Do your research, then talk to e tell him what you need. He’ll tell you whether wagner can help you with your accounting needs. No pressure, all professional. Got to do your due diligence. Get started at wagner cps dot com now, tony’s, take two. I’m paying attention to baby boomers. Millennials get a lot of attention. Of course on dh that’s deserved. That could be a very, very important part of your fund-raising prospect pool course. Depending on your mission, they’ll be donors for fifty or sixty years. I am not saying ignore millennials at all we’ve covered in here on the show many times what the trends involving millennials, etcetera and will continue to but that i don’t mean that is the universal no gator along with that my consulting, and hence my focus is on baby boomers. They’ll be around because i’m one and i’ll be around for a good forty years. Actually, i’ll be around for another forty four because i’m living two hundred so they’ll be around there’s a lot of wealth in the baby boomer generation, they have proven to be generous with their wealth, lots of reasons to pay attention to baby boomers and to promote and market the state and retirement plan gifts to them, as well as paying attention a millennial’s again, this is not an either or depending on your mission and depending on the makeup of your constituents, they may both very well fit in. Okay, my video saying a little more on that is at tony martignetti dot com it’s my pleasure to welcome steve rio to the show. He is founder and ceo of bright webb, a social impact consultancy delivering strategy, branding and digital. He aims to build the world’s most flexible, engaged and efficient company. He’s, an expert in exponential organizations, remote and distributed teams and workforce, wellness and performance. He consults with impact leaders to reimagine their organizational strategies, systems and company cultures. The companies that bright webb b r i t e web dot com and he’s at steve rio. Welcome to the show, steve. Hi, how are you? I’m very well. How you doing? I’m doing great. Good. Were you calling in from? I’m calling from my home office on bowen island in british columbia, canada. Wonderful bowing island. How far offshore is bowen island? Probono island is the closest island to vancouver. It’s about a twenty minute fairy. But it’s a small little community about thirty, five hundred people. So just a small, small island. Okay. And you’re a good, uh, i don’t know. Six, seven thousand miles from new york city. That’s about right. That’s. All right. Right now. Yeah. Okay. That’s where i’m sitting so, uh, okay. It doesn’t matter who got twenty. Eighteen. It hasn’t mattered for a long time. Okay. Um, you’ve been you’ve been spending a lot of time learning about researching the science of focus and attention. What? What? What brought you to this? Yeah. So, i mean, i’ve been thinking about this, i guess, as a leader of a company of about five years ago, we moved to more of a remote model where we’re kind of embracing twenty first century practices around, you know, organizing people, so we started allowing people to work remotely and and travel while working and doing things like that. And then a couple years ago, we launched a distributed workforce of freelancers, so we have freelancers in twenty five cities around the world now and, you know, over that time, one of what i’ve learned for knowledge workers there’s an increasing onus on the individual to think about how they manage their time, their work have it how we organize our offices, whether those air, virtual or physical spaces and just really thinking about, you know, the capacity and capabilities of our teams. And so i guess even for myself thinking about how to maximize productivity and howto really achieved the most impact i can have in the work we do it’s become a key part of my thinking on howto really maximize their teams. So it’s been a few years now where i’ve been focused pretty heavily. On this subject did you used to have a more traditional office where all our most people worked in one place? Yeah, i guess that would have been about four years ago was when we started making that transition. We were we were working out of an office. So we have an officer, vancouver. But we serve clients mainly in the united states. So we have an office in new york as well. So as soon as we had two officers that’s when we started to think about howto have you no more of a distributed approach toe work. And so four years ago, we started making that transition. Okay, i see what drove you to that. All right. So you could have come to the studio. You you could’ve visited the new york office and come to our studio here. That’s, right? But it happens to be summertime and summer time on the island is pretty good. So i understand how you could be with you in new york. That’s okay? We tried, tio. We tried to, but the schedules were just, you know, i’m not in new york all the time, either. I’m, uh, i spend a lot. Of time in north carolina, where the beach yes, i have a beach house there, and the beach is also very nice. During the summer, you might have heard rumors to that effect the ocean and beach life. Very nice in the summer months. Um, yeah, okay, so you’re and you’re interested not only in the not only interested, but you’ve been spending time researching not only the conscious aspects of this, but unconscious earth. Yeah, well, so to me, there’s sort of a couple of key components. One thing is how we organize our time. You know, i think about this from if we’re thinking about the social sector, which is who our clients are in a lot of who i consult with and work with. I think about the capacity of our teams because i think we have pretty severe limitations on budgets on operational budget specifically and thinking about howto increase the capacity of our workforce. And i think one of the ways we can do that is by really looking at the way we structure our time and the way we you know what kind of habits we reinforce in the office place and i think first off, there’s the component of just getting focused, work done and thinking about distractions, thinking about how we’re implementing technology and the sort of core components of that, i think a second component is around creativity and around creating space and allowing people actually have the time to think big and come up with creative solutions, which doesn’t happen in a busy, distracted work environment. And when you’re right in front of technology all the time, it kind of requires ah level of space to be created for people and so let’s. Ah, let’s, get some ideas. How do you how do you create that space? So i think creating spaces, it comes with first off and understanding what it means, you know, what’s interesting, like, you know, we’re starting to work with universities in canada as well as the u s and thinking about how we start to educate people from a younger age about what it means to be productive. I think we have, you know, his knowledge workers. Most of us are knowledge workers in today’s world who were working in front of a computer, and we’re creating documents or information products or things like that. Were a lot of communications, so oftentimes we feel like productivity is time spent in front of the computer o r on our devices and and i think it’s really important to realize that productivity and creativity comes also when you create space, when you go for a walk, when you take breaks when you actually disengage from the, you know, actual document creation or the actual work you’re doing and take time to process what’s happened so what’s interesting is that we have a conscious mind in a subconscious mind, and, for instance, when we learn new information, um, about six percent of that goes into our conscious mind, which is immediately available, and the other ninety four percent goes in our conscious mind, and that takes time to process and that’s where we kind of put things together and think that’s where correlation happened, that’s where true creativity happens. So, you know, i think most people would, you know, relate to the idea of the best ideas might come to them in the shower when they’re doing the dishes or when they’re, you know, doing some task that requires very little cognitive effort and that and that’s when our creativity strikes, and so what i what i try and teach my team and what i talked to people about in our workshops and the work we’re doing is about think rethinking what productivity’s means and how creating space in your days and you’re weak can actually be a very productive way to be a more creative contributor to your work. This reminds me of the dark days when i practiced law, and in those days we didn’t have why didn’t you have a computer at my desk? We’re talking about nineteen, ninety four, nine, nine, nine nine to nineteen ninety two andi i i’d have to stare at a blank ledger every day, and i knew i had to fill it up with atleast ten hours of billable activity. Otherwise i’d be working that weekend to make up the difference, and there were all kinds of building codes for for producing tangible output, but there was never a code for thinking. You know what? I just spent time thinking about your case, thinking about what the best strategy would be thinking about how to manage the relationship with this adversarial party, but i could never build for i thought and i i i had to build it into some document, some letter memo to the file or to the client that i had written this thinking time was never a billable activity, that it wasn’t a recognized thing that we should ask clients to pay for. Yeah, sorry, we feel the exact same thing as a consultant, you know, we were able to build for designing a website or creating a strategic brief for leading a workshop, but a lot of that that the thinking time is sort of out in space that we’re not. We’re not ableto billed for, which creates on, as, you know, an inverse relationship with the actual quality of the work that we’re trying to deliver. Yeah, wait, we just have a minute before a break tell me how you enforce this. How do you get people to it’s create this white space in their in their work days? Well, i think you just i mean, it’s been very interesting trying to implement this with my own company over the last couple of years and the hardest route to do this with his with young folks with the millennials grownup as digital natives. In so it’s kind of repeatedly letting them know that they’re a part of their job is delivering value like deep, valuable thinking, and to do that, they need to create some separation from technology and from their devices, and they need to create space and so really encouraging people to get up and walk around to take way. Taking meditation moments through our days, we have these virtual meditations we do throughout the week that are just three to five minutes, because i don’t think it could be. It could be a short period of time or a longer period of time longer the better. But even to destry minutes can make a big difference in your day where you’re actually fully disengaged in either in a short meditation or even just day dreaming and looking out the window. Hold that’s all we’ve got to take a break. Yeah, tell us you’ve heard the tell us mony als from charities that referred companies for credit card processing and, of course, they’re getting the revenue each month on dh from companies who are using tello’s for credit card processing can use more revenue big question can use more revenue that long stream of passive revenue. Ah, i’ll bet you could watch the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s that’s the way to get started now back to steve rio. Steve, i am guessing that a part of this is the especially the millennials where the tougher nuts to crack, he said they need to see you doing these things a swell like you’re you’re taking the virtual meditations with them, of course, that’s, right? Yeah. So so i think i mean, i think what’s very key for organizations realized that has to start with leadership, and so i think in my case, i’m the ceo of my company, i’m the founder of my company, so i’m ableto teo live this toe live this thes recommendations and these ideas and to really create that opportunity for people to pick it up. Now, it’s a serious behavior change for a lot of people who are very accustomed and, you know, perhaps addicted to their devices into being engaged with technology and those things so really creating behavior change, which could take some time, but it does start with leadership. Mm. And i think it all you know, it also we also have to rethink the way we organize our offices and the way we organize our work days and start to create, you know, periods of the day where people are allowed to work uninterrupted without the expectation that they’re going to re responding to emails or or taps on the shoulder or slack black messages that air coming in. I mean, the amount of distractions were seeing in our workplace today is is pretty insane, actually, when you think about how the brain works and what we actually need to do, teo, to be focused, creative and productive. So again, maybe maybe enforcement is not quite the right word, but encouragement or, uh, seems sounds like you’re stronger than just encouraging. Do you have these periods where people are no, during which people are not expected to to respond? So that’s their long term, you know, sort of thinking time and creative time. Yeah, we yeah, we do. We encourage way encouraged people to to use their calendars as a tool to block out time for that they’re weak. Where it’s very clear to everyone if they’re looking at other, you know, trying to find a time to book a meeting that these, you know, we encouraged ninety minute blocks of time because that’s really the amount of time that the the brain can, you know, we can focus on a hard cognitive tasks without meeting a break. So these ninety minute blocks, we encouraged those in the morning whenever possible because that’s really the most, uh, energy or your brain is going to have for the for the day. And we also created some tools, so we use black, like many, you know, like many companies, we use flak for internal communications, kind of quick, quick communications, but we’ve created a tool where people can basically turn on a snooze button for their slack, which notifies others when they messaged them to say, this person is in a focus what we call a focus block for x amount of minutes, and it indicates the amount of minutes before that person will be available again. Okay, so both some tools as well as practices and then what we’re what we’re looking at now is looking at sort of a shared a shared timeline throughout the day that works because we work on both the primarily the west coast in east coast time zones in north america, but basically looking at a calendar format that works for both, where there’s specific periods of the day where everyone is encouraged to focus in on their work and other shorter periods of time where everyone is focused to then use those periods to collaborate, communicate, ask questions and do all the regular sort of things that are necessary to move project forward. When you’re interviewing people to work for you, do you bring up these topics and sort of assess their their willingness? We do we? I mean, i don’t expect i don’t really feel like it a subject that is taught in universities or that many workplaces have ever really considered, so i don’t necessarily expect people to come in with a knowledge of it, but i do expect people to be open to it and willing to adopt it, and actually, as we’ve developed this content, more and more we’ve done two things one is internally, we’re starting to build a curriculum for this that will be basically required learning it’ll be part of our onboarding process that people will go through over the first a month or two of being being part of our company, where they will, they’re basically build these habits up, and these will be poor expectations of our of our work, of our workforce. The second thing we’re doing is is creating we’ve created a new entity called right well on break wells, you know, mandate is to help train and educate people through workshops were working like i said, we’re about to embark on a university tour to start teaching this as a supplementary content to college students. So my my my goal would be that people start to recognize this is the core necessity for for the workforce, not just being a subject matter expert and say, fund-raising or marketing or whatever, you know, your your specific areas, but also your work habits. So really thinking about both as as critical to success. How often do you do the virtual meditations? We have those happening every day of the week and there in a couple different times and what they are, they’re basically optional five minute meditations where people can jump on a video call, yeah, like on a video link, and they every we jump on the video and we just start with everybody sharing a one word kind of update on where they’re at so it could be stressed or excited or tired or just something to check in really quickly. And then we have a three, three, two, four minute guided medication that we all listen to. What it was really interesting is that the the actual active taking those three to four minutes is really relaxing and rejuvenating, you know, energetically, but it also brings people together in a very interesting way that we always end the calls of people, the big smile on their face and kind of connected in a way, even though we’ve been mostly silent together for those three to four minutes pretty neat how many of those do you participate in? I try to do them at least three or four times a week. I participate in a lot of them, i don’t i don’t leave them, but yeah, i try to participate in them a lot. I mean, i think, like i say, a lot of this is lead by example and and show that even a busy ceo of the company can take that time, you know, creating that space is possible, it’s a matter of sort of changing your mind set around how you structure your day no, we’re going tow. We’ll take another break and when we come back, i want to i want to start talking about your encouragement for non-cash hour, mindfulness and and attention. Great text to give. You’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors is our newest sponsor welcoming them again? If your donor’s consent a text, they could make a donation. How much simpler could it be? It’s simple, affordable, it’s secure the ceo is chad chad boyd. You can talk to him. The way to get started is text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine for info and to claim a special listener offer. We got about six more minutes for focus and attention. And so, steve really let’s make that shift what’s your encouragement for people outside the work day. Yeah, this is to me is a such a critical area and it’s very interesting to try and, you know, impact people’s personal behaviors, right? And i think it’s a critical component of our success that work is their success out of work. And i think to me, they’re all combined these days. So there’s a few things we really focus in on one is people’s morning habit. So how did they start their day? Particularly the first thirty minutes to their day. So really encouraging people to wake up without technology. So just stay off of of the internet, on off social media and off their email and things like that for the first thirty minutes of the day. It’s proven it’s a very critical time where we’re shifting mind state from, you know, from asleep to a conscious state, and it is a key time to sort of tell the tell the brain what type of what type of hey, am i gonna have is going to be a fragmented, distracted day where there’s all sorts of news and e mails and alert coming in? Or is it going to be a day where i’m focused on my priority? So the morning routine, we talk a lot about there’s, other aspects of that too, where we wait, just think about can you get some physical time in o r sum? Like even if it’s just yoga or a walk or something like that? But how? Do you think about your morning? And similarly before you okay? Before you move on, i want to focus on the morning. All right, so so you’re recommending eso. Okay. So, it’s, fine to wake up with your phone. Okay, your phone is your alarm. Okay? You silence. That sounds like don’t put it on snooze taken extra ten to fifteen minutes. Right? That’s bad. Probably, uh, okay. And now set aside. Don’t check e mail. Don’t look at the latest alerts. Um, what do you want? What do you want me to do? Right after i hit that silence button on the alarm. Yeah. So i think probably the most. The healthiest thing you could do for your day is to wake up to spend the first few minutes of your day, perhaps thinking about your top, you know, maybe what you want to achieve that day, maybe thinking about what? Your great before, like, you know, taking a few minutes to have a bit of a gratitude practice. So a simple way to think about that is just every morning. Think about three things that you’re grateful for and those could be, you know, somebody important in your life some projects you’re working on, you know, the sun is out. It could be very simple things, but taking a few moments to be grateful and two to to, you know, feel good and excited about your day. And then i think also spending the first few minutes, uh, doing something physical, if possible, if you can get up in the first thing you do is get outside and breathe fresh air and go for a walk. That’s a very healthy way to start your day and to warm up your body in your mind so i can stop in the bathroom first, right on my way to the walk. Absolutely. Okay, but don’t eat anything, you know, okay, because otherwise out of bladder pain be terrible walk so yeah, and it could you might, you know, you could wake up and make your coffee or make your tea or, like, i think, just having basically a morning routine that is calm and present, where you’re spending time in the present moment, whether it’s like a lot of people for them it’s the ritual of making a great coffee and thinking about their day and looking out the window. And just, you know, taking a few moments to be very present at the beginning here today is a great way to ground your energy and be more resilient when you do start, you know, getting your work environment and you start getting emails or not you and all sorts of information, you’re a lot. You have a lot more resilience and ability to be, you know, president and capable of handling whatever stone at you. Now, this sounds good intuitively is their research that bears this out. What this is this effect throughout the day that you’re describing there is a lot of there is research around, yeah, around the way that you start your day. So when people, when people start today with technology, whether it’s, whether it’s work related, so se e mails rather kind of alert first off, any type of work e mails or things like that can immediately trigger an anxiety response, even if it’s not necessarily a negative thing, it could just mean hope there’s an urgent thing or something pops up, and so when you start your day with that way, you’re basically haven’t heightened, uh, heightened dose of what we call cortical zoho yeah, yeah, and this is where your stress is, one of those one of reaction to stress hormones well, basically spike right out of the gate without having a warm up to the day and then there’s also research that shows when you start your day with technology, your brain is basically triggered into a highly reactive state, which means that you’re more likely to be distracted on dh less able to stay on task through the morning after the day. I mean, so so you’re more likely you’re basically telling your brain if you think about our brain in a more about, you know, primitive sense, if you wake up and you’re immediately alerted to thirty different things, you’re basically telling your brain today is a day where i just need to be aware of anything that moves around me, which is not necessarily the state you want to be in when you wantto get him focused. Work done. Okay, so the research bears it out. All right, all right, all right. What? Anything else we have? Just about two minutes or so left. Anything else for outside the work hours that you reckon e i would. Say the at, like, the absolute most important thing people should be thinking about outside of their work is their sleep. And and in north america, we have a serious issue. One into adults are sleep deprived. You know, one in three adults in north america are working our surviving on less than six or left hours of sleep, and this is having a massive effect on not only our cognitive ability, but our health and well being and our mood and our mindset. And so i think, it’s one of the most undervalued, most important things we should be thinking about is getting the necessary amount of sleep there’s just an incredible amount of research, not only showing the health issues that are related to a lack of sleep and by a lack of sleep, i really mean six hours or less, or anything in that area which a lot of people consider to be a fairly normal amount osili but also the amount of cognitive decline that you that you experience. So i think a lot of times we have this this this relationship with time where we think, well, there’s not enough time to sleep. There’s so much i got to get done, but then when we don’t sleep, our productivity in our capacity and our ability to process is so low that we’re actually kind of creating a creating a negative feedback loop on where we’re getting less done with our time. I think sleep is the other area that i think people should be really focused in on and for optimal sleep. You want a dark and quiet space? I’ve done the way. Yes, we’re gonna leave it there those steve. But thank you for saying one hundred percent steve rio, you want to learn more from him finding that bright b r i t web dot com and treat him directly at steve rio. Thank you, steve. Thank you every day. Thank you. And a good night, too. Next week, amy sample ward returns with over marketing. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p weather. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com bye tello’s credit card. And payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna, slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr. To four, four, four, nine, nine, nine ah, creative producers, clam meyerhoff, sam leave lorts is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guys, and this music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network duitz to get you thinking. Dahna cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative network, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. 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Nonprofit Radio for July 6, 2018: Peer-To-Peer Peek & Poverty Porn

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Noah Barnett & Kenny Kane: Peer-To-Peer Peek
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares an overview of community-driven fundraising. How do you plan for, inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from CauseVox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Poverty Porn
Amy Sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping, while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN).

 

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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into righteous, sardonic ous if you expected me to smile when you say you missed today’s show peer-to-peer peak, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares an overview of community driven fund-raising how do you plan for inspire and activate your supporters? They’re noah barnett from causevox and kenny kane with testicular cancer foundation and poverty porn. Amy sample ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively she’s, our social media contributor and ceo of the non-profit technology network, and ten tony take two a big lump of thanks responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telling by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, here are noah barnett and kenny. Kane from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference hashtag is eighteen ntc where the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits i guess now are noah barnett and candy cane. Noah is head of marketing for causevox and candy cane is, you know, the testicular cancer foundation. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for having us, this’s. Great talent. Yeah. No it’s. Great. Not that in ten things. Not great. It’s. Exceptional. Yeah. It’s. Exceptional. Thank you. And ten. Thank you. All right. Your workshop topic is community driven. Fund-raising how do you use peer-to-peer to cultivate dahna relationships and reach new donors? That sound familiar? Yeah, absolutely. We just wrapped up our session. We’re already done. Yeah, we’re all done outside. Yes. Yeah, we’re on the downswing. So this’s the after party’s victory last put both put it well, community driven fund-raising let’s, start with you, let’s. Start close to know what’s what’s not being done quite right. That non-profits could do better. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is we’ve gone through a few shifts in fund-raising we went through this idea of there was, like, localized fund-raising back in the day, and then we went to mass fund-raising where we basically didn’t differentiate any of our appeals, we sent all that out. And now today, like, i think there’s a fundamental shift where we’ve moved into what we call the connected economy, where the lines between digital and offline are starting to blur, and that requires a shift in how we approach fund-raising and we see kind of a playbook for the connected economy is community driven. Fund-raising okay, b i like the way you you sort of set this up for us the lines between online and the physical world and our real life are blurring indeed, yeah, okay, so we’re bringing these things together? Yes, okay. Peer-to-peer community driven. Okay, yeah, we’re calling it the connected economy because we’re just connected to anybody anywhere, at any time, through technology and our lives are more connect xero never. So why shouldn’t our causes b similarly should should we be similarly connected to our cause is exactly through our community. Exactly. Okay, kenny, anything you want to add? To the start up? Yeah, i would just say that you know what? The testicular cancer foundation were really big on storytelling and creating compelling stories that resonate with our audience? Not only, you know, as someone who’s been through it as a caregiver myself, but, you know, we try to put ourselves on the other end of the computer screen or the phone. What have you where these stories will compel people to act compel people to donate compel people that take action? Okay, let’s, stay with you. You’re right, your description says and in fact, in bold face, your description says that you will share with us exactly how to do this. How did so where where should we start? Where we’ve been, you know, everybody sees peer-to-peer well, let me take a step back, my ok to synonymous eyes peer-to-peer and community fund-raising or you guys drawing a distinction between those two? Yeah, we’re definitely drawing in this sham. Please set. Educate me. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is what we’re calling the umbrella that lays over all the various aspects of fund-raising where your community of supporters are actually the key. Driver of success in the campaigns here, it appears your war is a tactic inside of that larger exactly and so in community driven fund-raising there’s kind of a scale of the different types of things that qualify as that that moves from organization led meaning, like the organization is starting a campaign like e-giving tuesday campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an annual campaign all the way down to supporter initiated, which could be i’m wanna raise money for cancer. And i’m choosing to do that for the testicular cancer foundation. But i decided, as a supporter to do that, he didn’t created environment for me to do that was organic. Okay, thank you so well. Refrain from making those two synonymous. I’m being too narrow. Choosing one method. One tactic. Okay. All right, exactly how kenny. Where where did wish we get started? We yeah, so appealing. But i don’t know where to get going. Sure. So in this rolling in my last role, which was a broader young adult cancer non-profit called stupid cancer. The same rules apply. So you have people who are affected by cancer? Cancer was huge. Yes. Did you have in north, like millions of kids and engaged around. Um, i know you’re probably right way did pretty well. Yeah, it still exists. They’re still there. Still hammered away at it. He’s going to take a little he’s, one of the co founders of super cancer. Yeah. Ok, so? So the long story short is that my father was diagnosed at age fifty with testicular cancer, which put me on a path towards can frat advocacy in my early twenties. And about two years ago, my friend matt first learn who’s, the founder of testicular cancer foundations and eighty want move from new york latto austin i said, sure. Oh, and i’ve taken over testicular cancer foundation. Okay, but getting back to you know that the same rules apply where we serve people who are in a a disadvantage spot going through cancer. You know, whether it’s a survivor, the patient, the caregiver who is helping the person caregivers often forgot. Yes, characters need to take care of them. So i was here to be coddled and cared for one hundred percent. That was made. Uh, so what we do is we see these people go along a path of being recipients of the mission. Being beneficiaries of the mission, and then they come back, you know, to three years out and, you know, they decide they want either run a marathon or they want to create a cancerversary party cancerversary is a really big milestone where on the, you know, annual date of their diagnosis or when they finish treatment which everyone they choose people will give back, and typically they get back to the non-profit that help them? You know, i think it’s probably similar in all chronic health. I know what i know. An oncologist office where they have a bell, you ring the bell, your final treatment? Yeah, i’ve seen a bell if tina got probable. Yeah. It’s a great milestone, you know, on and i had my own i’m sympathetic to caregivers. I mean, i had some sense of it before this, but during the summer this past last year, summer and in the fall so october, my mom was declining and i was my mom. My dad and i were were caregivers and just watched her, and then she actually died early october of twenty seventeen, so i it was became even more became even more aware of how. You need to take care of yourself. I know. It’s just one component of what testicular cancer is doing. Share the caregivers. You know, i often think that they have to be selfless. Andi, can’t you cannot give up your own life, teo, give another to get to another. You’ll burn out there’s a lot of self care that goes into your caregiver. So when we talk about the community aspect of community and fund-raising, you know, and i’m so let the host tigress i’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry about mom. Thank you. Host back-up kottler disgust like, welcome to the show cubine xero all week so community german fund-raising candy cane is goingto yeah, so the same rules apply so people go through this process, they come back and for every person who was perhaps turned away from the person going through this acute episode of, you know, not episode, but a stretch of cancer treatment. What? Not whether somebody wanted to give them food or take them to the doctor’s appointment person kind of turned away community driven fund-raising is a great way to really activate your community of people who wanted to help you and in the past, we have created opportunities for fundraisers to convert into things like travel scholarships to a patient conference. So if you’re this arrive, er, you could fund-raising within your community to raise money for travel reimbursement, so it’s not necessarily scholarship, is a little bit more democratic of a process scholarship can get a little tricky. So this skull, this reimbursement program that we did it stupid cancer actually allowed the people around the person affected to help fund their way to the conference while doing ah e-giving back to charity, getting the tax benefits all that. But it was just a really nice way of recognizing what that person had been through. It’s time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is the digital donation revolution. You’re online donors have high expectations of you because of the swift transactions that they enjoy at amazon. Zappos, even some banks, the digital giving bar has been raised. How do you get over? Get the digital donation revolution it’s on the listener landing page, tony dot m a slash pursuant radio now back to peer-to-peer peak and then so what’s the broader lesson for our listeners in small and midsize shops. But know anybody? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is just a reframing of how we approach raising money and building awareness for the causes that were advocating for okay, bye, basically recognizing the true value that every person in your non-profits community and as a community of supporters, whether they’re known or unknown supporters of your organization, typically we look at it from just a financial perspective. And so what community room fund-raising says, is that it’s not just about the money, that supporter khun give you its about their influence in the time they can give you a swell? And in the connected economy, the influence that a supporter has is actually more valuable than it’s ever been before, because brands are being kind of blocked out of feeds, whether it’s, facebook, it’s becoming really difficult for non-profits to reach any new people. And so by turning inward and saying, how can we actually empower our supporters by inspiring, activating and rallying them? Latto actually be the fundraisers for organization, ok, how do we get? How do we activate this within our own organization way we need to be thinking through sure, who should be. In the team discussing, i feel like we’ve spent enough time on motivation, what are some steps? How do we get started? I’m interested, but i don’t know how to organize myself. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, i think community german fund-raising is just like a lens on how you approach fund-raising and so i think it’s important to have non-profit leadership buy-in but also a fund-raising team in general and communications because communities and fund-raising is basically saying, we’re going to inspire people in our community becomes supporters rather than guilt them, then we’re going to activate those people that have true potential to become fundraisers and advocates for our cause instead of and we’re not trying to convince people to do that. We’re just activating the potential that’s already, and they’re already exists. Exactly, and they were rallying them together so fundraisers usually see raising money and reaching new donors as their responsibility. Community driven fund-raising says no it’s, actually your job to be a player coach and basically see your community is a valuable asset to helpyou fund-raising help you grow your impact, help you reach new donors, but i’m gonna ask you again. But how do we get? Started? I mean, maybe is that identifying certain people to maybe seed the program. I understand you’re not throughout the life of the pregnant thing, okay, you do something, you do something, but we need some seeds. Yeah, i think what we do is all we always advise people to understand the different stages of community fund-raising and so the first stage is inspiring. And so as you look at your current fund-raising whether it’s an event, whether it’s a male piece, how do you look at that piece and see it from a lens that you’re not trying to convince someone or guilt someone to gives your cause? We’re actually trying to inspire them and because inspiration leads to sharing and action. Okay, so so, yes, we wanted to share exactly. And then inside your current supporters, which is the second stage, which is activation, identifying key supporters that are ready to do something more. And so one of our customers world bicycle relief every time someone donates at that moment of inspiration that they’ve someone’s been inspired to support the cause, they want to provide a next step toe activate them to actually be an advocate or a fundraiser for the cause and so it’s something as simple as that by they implement this new program and they’re just asking new donors if they want to do more and presenting the opportunity. And if you apply the commuter and fund-raising methodology, you could find things across your current fund-raising program where you just shift your mindset to be how it can we make this more community focus rather than organization driven it’s sort of empowering them to indeed, i’m just adding another i mean, you’re talking about no inspiring them so that they share and then they take action. Yep, i guess i’m calling it empowering them and giving them well in power and giving them permission and maybe some tools. Two work with yeah, right, the backdrop is shaking video would be stable, it’s not going to fall, but it shook. I would have to say that, you know, historically, we’ve created fund-raising or maybe you donate twenty dollars, to yourself so that you don’t share this fundraiser with a zero balance the same rules apply to when you’re launching a campaign, you really need the buy-in have trusted ah, folks in your, you know, in your group people that, you know will create a buzz, and you certainly don’t want to launch it on deaf ears, right? Yeah, with xero balance, etcetera. You mentioned storytelling earlier, you seem to make a point of how important that is. How does that help us? I guess at the first stage that noah was describing inspiring the community, i think i think it contextualized is and provides insight into your motivation as a fundraiser. How do we start telling these stories? I want to get into the nitty gritty here, so, you know, obviously we’re up against the algorithm of any given social media platform and, you know, you could do it whether it’s, tio email or through, you know, social post, but really providing, you know, maybe a before and after photo in my case, where people are, you know, going through treatment and they come out with a smile on their face, that’s the best case scenario and just really humanizing it. You know, we talked a lot in our session today about being human throughout the fund-raising process, i think it’s really easy to get kind of technical and robotic about it and just create opportunities. For people that self serving, you know, creative latto fund-raising page and then never to be heard from again. I think. Causevox and, you know, i know. Using causevox. We aim. Tio certainly create opportunities for more than that. So you actually have a relationship with the non-profit as you’re going through the fund-raising fund-raising stages and and finishing the campaign about empowering people tell their own stories so that it doesn’t it’s not coming from the organization, but giving them the option to create a two minute self didio or log on their own power way actually saw this firsthand so and ten is a non-profit who hosts this conference, and what they did was they said, how can we raise money for scholarships so that people could come to this conference for free? Who can afford it? And one of the biggest things they did was they said, you know, we have ten board members that have influence and ability to do this and so let’s empower them to tell the community why ntcdinosaur others to them and fund-raising on our behalf, and so they were able to raise over eighteen thousand dollars, and i just saw the banner over there and there’s, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy different donors that came together to help support that campaign, and all they did was they said, hey, boardmember is ur supporters were goingto activate you to tell your story on our behalf, and they did it with did videos they wrote like testimony is different content, and so they didn’t say one thing to the other again. Theyjust activated those supporters and said, hey, can you share your story with the community and raise money on dh. They were able to do that and there’s people at this conference because of what those board members did in the stories that they told you. Excellent. So so starting capital so we’re activating people that they share a men that they take the act take the action of, of actually beginning fund-raising fund-raising on their own as we’re okay. It’s rise. Where going through this process of empowering, i would have described how you describe it. Do we need to circumscribe it a little bit boundaries around it? For listeners, that might be a little leery of maybe the the power they were transferring too much power. Yeah, we’re powering know it talked a lot about this during the session about giving, you know, the non-profit needs to give up a certain degree of control. You want to talk about that? Yeah. And i think that’s why? The third phase of commuters fund-raising is about rallying, not controlling. And so i think our default is well, how do we control this? How do we do this? How do we do that? I think in the connected economy, all the powers with the customer and it’s on the non-profit to realize that their supporters have more power than they think. And so they can try to control them. Or they can really say hey, let’s, rally this let’s, support this and help drive this forward, and so i think if you jump to taking a control position instead of how do we actually rally people in the right direction? Um, you’re going to miss huge opportunities really activate your community. You know, this reminds me of the fears that non-profits had around facebook. Oh yeah, allowing people to come it’s been going on for years? Yeah, come on their facebook page. I don’t know if we’re going to allow those car. Yeah, we should have opened commenting and posted. Yeah, well, circling back earlier we were talking about, you know, the storytelling aspect and in the cancer world and again in the probably the chronic illness world of non-profits it’s a beautiful thing when you have somebody sharing their story, whether we are sharing on the behalf, which is most of the time when you see in the comments let’s say they have a rare type of brain tumor or something like that they’ve never met or connected with another young adult with cancer, let alone somebody who has their exact same diagnosis toe watch that unfold in the comment section where now these people are going to be able to support one another, the fact that you facilitated that on the non-profit side, i’s, amazing and it’s only going to contribute to the overall strategy of activation and engagement getting people teo really buy into your non-profit buy-in to your mission. And you showed a great example that stupid cancer had a different name before it was stupid cancer, and it was, you know, this moment when they said everyone calls us stupid cancer because that’s the tagline so let’s actually switch. So he convinced the founder of the organization to switch the name to stupid cancer and make the name of the organ kapin line right and kind of say, you know, hey, like, we’re going to give power to this community that wants to be a part of this and that’s when they saw growth from two thousand two hundred fifty thousand like you saw hundreds of thousands dollars being raised because they just again said, hey, we’re not going to control this. We’re not going to, you know, they would correct people be like we’re not the stupid cancer guys where the i got every one of the other name it wasn’t i’m too young for this cancer and it’s very slavic, every word. But they gave up that control. And then they saw, like the mo mentum in the community like flourish. And i think what was interesting is that still progressed. What their mission, ford wass maybe in ways they never expected or never would have done themselves. But it’s still pushed the mission forward. And i think that’s the opportunity that non-profits small, large, medium all have today. And we see it time and time again with our customers at causevox and in parallel, you know, you don’t get to decide what school your audience is. The same sort of thing with fund-raising storytelling. All the concepts were presenting today, it’s all about the audience and did, uh, what about let’s? Talk a little more about building this into your annual fund-raising plan? Okay, okay, uh, what you’re the experts. I have a plan now, and i don’t feel like i’m sufficiently community driven or or at all community community supported what i need to rethink. Well, not just what we’ve already covered. But how do we get this in my plan? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is fundraisers have like the same playbook, and they just think if they do more of it that there’ll be more successful. Andi, i think that’s why the burnout rate for fundraisers is so significant in our industry is because they feel as though there’s one playbook to run, which is more events, more emails, more mail in wartime decides that they have exhausted that playbook organization. W ell, move onto organization, yeah, try again no more, yeah, and i think what’s also thing is it it creates this window shopping experience where you’re always looking at other non-profits and being like man, if i only had what they have, i would be able to solve and what we challenged our people that attend our session is that you really need to look at the challenges and reframed them. And so we said is instead of saying, okay, i need to do more of these things, it’s saying as part of my annual fundraising campaign, whether other things like we can do and what we provide, it was saying, how about we take a look at our community and see if there’s opportunities that we can inspire our community, activate them and rally. Them to actually help raise more money and reach new donors. Okay, that’s part of our annual can i would i would add that, you know, people listen, this interview who were saying, all right, how do i deploy this? You certainly don’t want to cannibalize anything that’s working for you, so if you raise a ton of money in queue for, you know, don’t don’t suddenly pivot and say, all right, i’m going to try to spread that out for the rest of the year, and then suddenly you’re exhausted by q for but there’s a lot of little things you can do through out the year like being more human, connecting with your audience, giving up the control is we’ve, you know, keep reiterating on just being more of a social entity, you know, that’s kind of what it comes down to is is it’s not a one way communication channel? It’s you know, the feedback goes both ways, yeah, yeah, and i think it’s, just even seeing the potential and being able to create the opportunities were actually saying we’re asking for more things than money, so a quick story i spent six years running growth at an international relief non-profit and i was overseeing growth, but that was communications and development, and so our major gift officers, obviously we’re hard core, like, go after money, cultivate new gifts year over year, and when i told them when i oversaw them was like there’s, other opportunities for these major donors to make a difference, their influence and their time are really valuable, you know, major donors know a lot of other major donors, and so we continually go back and say, the only thing we want from you is your money. We’re only going to get a portion of their value and so weak went to them and said, hey, you know, would you want to do something interesting by, like, leveraging your major gift to run a matching gift campaign? Or do you want to do a employee engagement campaign at your non-profit or do you wantto basically go into the business network that you’re a part of and share this opportunity, teo promote and inspire other people to support the cause? And what we saw is that the more that we got them to invest, their influence and their time, the more money they like. Well, how do you make those ass? You just picked off like three things? How do you make? So i think in the major gifts side, obviously, you know, it involves, like face-to-face conversations and having a conversation and providing examples of what other individuals but that’s, what people do you wantto do this campaign or, you know, activate matching gift? So what do you make those asks? You want to do your own work? Place campaign? Yeah, so i think obviously in major gifts, it’s different because you have a personalized contextual relationship with that individual. And so if you know that they’re a ceo of a company, you can have a dialogue about that and say, you know, how are you engaging your employees to give back as a community, you obviously care and see your legacy as giving gifts into our organization. How is your company doing? And so it’s having a conversation around that, i think in the broader sense where you’re asking a broader audience to do fund-raising is again making sure that you’re not asking everybody and just being like, hey, this is a new way that you can give to our information are give to our organization rather looking for segments of your audience that are ready to do something, whether that means they’re new donors, they’re volunteers, their board members, they’ve been giving monthly for ten years looking for signals that they have the potential to do something and that’s why we say that second phase is about activation because that means they already have the ability to do it. You’re just activating that, and so it can’t just be this broad sweeping thing where it’s like hey, now you can raise money on x y and z on behalf of our cause. That’s not gonna work. You just ticked off a bunch of very good identify irs indeed you are. Whom i who this might be appropriate for kenny, i want to go back to something that you said earlier. The feedback has to be both ways yet not organization too. Everybody correct this so that involved really listening on the organization’s it’s hard. Sometimes you don’t hear things. I mean, you might not. You’re not always gonna hear things you want to hear. Talk about. You know how how an organization khun sort of shift culture in terms of real listening, engagement that way i think i think you guys were just talking about some really important, which is the signals, you know, in a non-profits situation have a lot of people who will come to the table and, you know, people have ideas, people have always do this, you should do that. And, you know, one of the things that we always say is if you don’t pay attention to mission, eh, you know, mission b, c and d, whatever we’ll all fail. So listening is important, you know, for us, the example of changing the name of the organization was kind of a really big undertaking. When you look back at it, i think that you just have to have a qualifying process, you know, kind of ah, multiphase approach to letting feed back into the top and looking at the person who is suggesting it, and kind of like i said, creating a rubric to take me back in and, you know, you have a border directors for a reason. So if the board is providing you with information, obviously it’s probably a good thing that listen to but also people who were out of the core. Of the apple can sometimes ride the most meaningful feedback and again trying to figure you gotta be you gotta be ready to hear that, you know, not only not only listening to your board and also where they’re coming from, what is their motivation for providing this feedback? And if i can have two things that what we did at my non-profit is first and foremost we had to convince the organization that the donors in our supporters actually mattered so much of our head was like, we’re doing great work, and we just need people to give us money. And so what we did was every week we had an hour designated, so we got leadership buy-in where everybody in the organization wrote thank you notes to donors, and so that started to say, hey, we’re going to center on this, and then we started doing what? Like surveying or net promoter scorer type things where we asked, hey, you know, would you recommend our organisation to a friends, family or colleagues? If so, why? Why do you support our organization? And we actually started using their responses in our fund-raising copy because they were telling us why. They support our organization in a way that was specific that we could actually share with others, and they also told us ideas on how we could improve, and so i think the person foremost is you have to cultivate that idea that you’re actually gonna listen because you value that person’s opinion, and second is you just have to ask, i think we asked for money all the time, but we don’t ask for what people think or why they support our organization or how could we improve this organization? How could we reach new people? We asked that question to a small segment of donors. They gave us tons of ideas that we were able to filter throughout our organization. Good dahna we’re going to leave it there, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for having us. You’re not on the you’re not watching the video. They’re both redheads on thei r noah barnett, head of marketing for causevox and can he came ceo of the testicular cancer foundation and cofounder of stupid cancer? And so i have that right way. Three a curveball and you just handled it. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. You get to use overviewing ingratiate something alright, way where he’s trying to get in by the back i’ve been listening sarrantonio twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ninety see this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break, wagner cps in the last two weeks, we had segments on storytelling. You don’t want your storytelling to be so compelling that it leads to restricted gif ts or even or just lots of restricted gif ts regular has you covered their block post is avoiding restrictions from donations inspired by storytelling it’s that wagner cps dot com click resource is then blawg in a moment. It’s poverty porn right now! Time for tony’s take two i have a big lump of listener thank you it’s not segregated it’s not discriminated against by whose name listed first or second or third. And, of course, any discrimination on non-profit radio is benign non video ce discrimination anyway, but we’re not doing that this this week. I am just grateful to everyone who listens to the show supports the show exultant and that i don’t care what platform you listen. What time of day, whether your digital or analog, however, you are listening to the show or supporting the show. Thank you. You make maybe ah, you’re just you’d listen occasionally and you get my insider alerts. So you know who the guests are each week you cherry pick that’s. Fabulous. Take it as you need it. Thank you. To everyone who listens and supports non-profit radio. My video gratitude is that tony martignetti dot com now, let’s, bring in any sample ward. She is our social media contributor and ceo of and ten, the non-profit technology network. Our most recent car, third book is social change. Anytime. Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample ward, dot or ge and at a m e r s ward. Welcome back, amy. Sample word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s. My pleasure to have you back. This is, uh uh. This is the have you been back on the show since and ten since auntie si thie ntc. I don’t think this might be the first time i think it is. I’m pretty sure because i was leaving you alone. Because i figured, you know, there’s clean up to do and thank you’s to sand and lots of stuff. So, um, and then you had a staff planning. Then you have your staff planning time. Yeah. So to two times a year. All of the staff. Because not everyone is here in the portland office. Let me have some remote dafs. Everybody comes to portland for a week together of planning and craft and happy hour and things like that. Wonderful. Yes. I think they call it staff planning, but planning is not all that we dio excellent. Nor should it be, because you’re all together only twice a year. So you have many vulture virtual employees, so congratulations on a wonderful and fun. And i hope from your perspective, successful certainly was for mine. Ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, i think it was a really good year. You think so? Too good. Yeah. I’m good. I’m definitely fun. I know it was fun. I know that’s. Not a question, but we’re doing it for a little more off. Just the fun purpose fundez one is up, there fundez up there, but education and technology, you know. They rank, too, but congratulations, thank you for being part of it again. Thank you. It was my pleasure. We gotta lot. We got thirty interviews for non-profit. Yeah, great, no, thank you. Okay, so we’re talking today about poverty porn. You said this had come up for you in aa, some discussions or members have been raising it. You’ve you’ve been hearing ah, little more chatter about this. Yeah, i think that organizations are organizations have been criticized for participating in poverty porn for years, but i think those have often been organizations that are really, really big operating on an international scale global scale that are maybe more vulnerable to criticism, because so so many people are saying what they’re doing, and they’re raising so much money. And, you know, with all of that kind of spotlight and revenue, i think naturally organizations, regardless of what they dio, are open to criticism of lots of different forms, right? But now i think organizations, they’re starting to see yes, well, you know, maybe criticize those organizations for years, but also maybe we’re a part of that. And what does that mean for us? You know, you don’t just have to be really, really large organization are making lots and lots of revenue off of a single appeal to have some issues with the way your year doing your work, so i think it’s organizations are starting to see that there, maybe starting to ask more questions because they’re getting, you know, the the digital teams who are managing that content are starting to feel like if something does happen, you know, they’re the ones that posted that photo or sent that tweet or whatever and really wanting to figure out how how to navigate what what’s the best way to tell this story? Yeah, andan avoid a potential backlash. Yeah, um, how would you define this? Do you? Ah, i have a way, but i’m going to hear, you know, how would you define poverty porn? I got i don’t have probably an eloquent, succinct definition, but if i was explaining poverty porn, teo an organization i think you know, without knowing whoever we’re talking to what their mission is, you know, poverty point is when you’re who’s may be taking advantage of the difference between the audience you’re calling tau action most often it’s for donations and these people that you are serving in whatever way, instead of maintaining the humanity of everyone involved in that situation and honoring all that all of those people have and really owning the story. About what you do in the power of in this example, their donation, versace trying to exacerbate the difference and the things that are, quote unquote not had about this group that you’re serving and focusing on that discrepancy, i think to me and is really what it’s about you you’re not maintaining everyone’s humanity and then highlighting the service, you provide your instead, maybe kind of further opening divide and most of the backlashes that i’ve seen or, you know, examples of this on the on the web are our images, but could be written off as easy as you can see, right majority video, but a written description could also be oh, totally exploitative or, you know, you have the language that we use to describe communities we could also highlight that that gap that you’re describing, yeah, um, no it’s ah it’s it’s very sensitive, you know, because we are trying to do very good work and we are motivated and our mission statements are or are around help of this vulnerable population, whatever it might be, whatever country it might be. I mean, it’s not a lot of the lot of the images are from abroad. I mean, i see a lot of, like, south america, central america, africa, but it could, you know, it could be right here in the u s to i mean, you could certainly go astray with images and written descriptions of conditions right here, right here in the u s certainly right, but, you know, so where were motivated by the right? Um, in the right directions, but right, but we, uh, you know, it may just be is easy, if, you know, consciousness raising, which is what our conversation hopefully is doing, and certainly a lot of the conversation, you know, like i saw things back too, like twenty, thirteen or so talking about this subject. So i think a lot of it because our motivations are, you know, i always impute good motivations toe non-profits and most people no, there are good, you know, it’s just raising country business. I mean, i think that is there are lots of tactical things that we could talk. Yeah, you’re right, it’s not just, you know, you’re right your underlying the thing that’s really going to create change is that organizations and the individuals in those organizations actually do some, really hard work two to figure out an address and accepts and try and move forward from all the biases that they’re bringing to their work the again, even if their motivation, their intent internally, is field pure and good to them, it could still be coming from a really kind of dangerous place that they are the savior of that community, right? And that in itself isn’t is a bias that’s going to mean you? You cannot create content, whether that’s, you know, photos are writing these descriptions that not coming from that place, right? So i think doing that internal work to say, gosh, how are we, you know, without explicitly like deciding to do this, how are we already coming at this from not the best a place you know, and as an organization, whatever the practices or policies that we have that can help us change that? I mean, you know, if we want to start at the big picture level, don’t think about tactics, things like do every single one of your staff regularly have opportunities to interact with the community members you serve if they don’t, they’re not in a position to speak from a place where they understand the shared humanity, they understand that everyone both inside the organization and those being served all have strengths and weaknesses and hopes and dreams and challenges and are at a place to really, i think, talk about the work anymore, productive way, you know. So even just at that level are you creating opportunities for every single one of your staff to be a part of the community? I think i’m always surprised how many organizations where they say, oh, no, if you work in the office, you don’t ever talk to the community, only our program staff do that. Why would you do that? You know, why would you create this while the silo between the staff talking about the work stopped deciding how the work is going to be done and the people participating in that work? That doesn’t make any sense to me? And those opportunities need to be more than photo opportunities do no the right there’s, lots of examples, you know, it has to be meaningful, you know, there’s one of the iconic ones, i guess infamous one’s better better than iconic. What if this one’s is, you know, eyes ellen. Too generous in nairobi with lots of kids around her and, um, there’s one of each year in wearing the red nose with liberian children around him. I know so. And what i mean, i think it’s really smart to bring that up, eh? Because now people now everybody listening to our conversation, i can think of the same kind of image, but also that i think totally the kind of thing that organizations i would think to dio with staff, right is like, okay, here, the folks that we serve here’s some of quote unquote us let’s take a photo together and inevitably, these photos like the two you just suggested when you’re years ago, like ellen and nairobi or add in liberia it’s like here is this person in the center of all these other people, and you are both figuratively and literally centering yourselves instead of centering your community. This is now not a photo about those people. This is a photo about you on dh that is kind of the epitome of what we’re talking about here, right? Is that you have come in to save them your services, you’re donations, you or whatever it is. Are literally the center instead of this community truly getting too to be in that place. So i think that’s a really great, like daily kind of check, check and balance for yourself when you’re when you’re looking at two weeks or you’re looking at the way you describe something that you’re looking at, a photo you can just say is this photo centering the people that we’re serving? Or is this photo about us? Um and there are certainly times where photo should be about you, but that doesn’t mean that the photo should be you surrounded by people you served. Maybe then it’s a photo of just your staff at, you know, the conference table looking on something or if you know what i mean it it’s going to be about you make it on ly about you and not you, in contrast to your community. Very good point about figuratively and literally making the individual the center surrounded by the community in need. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. See, that’s why that’s? Why we have you on? Because i looked at the same picture was an idea that did not occur to me. But that’s the brilliance of of aa expert. You know, lots of flecks of expert well, in this case, we have one expert and me, but other other people contributing exper, having experts contribute that’s what i mean, okay, you think about this, you know, it’s value of having multiple multiple opinions and and eyes on something very it was very well said, thank you for that. Altum i was thinking you by where i wasn’t thanking me for what i just said, that that was, obviously, you’re welcome. I always had a defective. I wouldn’t. I would probably not considered an expert perspective, but it is an opinionated one. You bring a lot of insight and used him to the show. Sabat yeah, you know, another part of the problem is that these images, their descriptions, you know, that it’s one dimensional, you know, right? If i’m here or if you swoop in with your donation from the united states that’s going to solve the problem, the child will no longer have empty hands reaching out, you know? And we just have a minute, but weaken, obviously we can keep talking beyond the break. Poverty is multidemensional mean, it includes govern the local community. The local community needs to be empowered, it includes well, and i think thinking about those layers, and we can talk more about this. Those layers of change that need to happen are are important. But also, as we continue to see, the kind of donor base of america change as boomer’s got older and millennials, you know, come into more of the majority in the world of social action that there is also your community. Your audience for this kind of message also knows there are multiple layers and maybe that immediate kind of got reaction of oh, my gosh, this crisis just happened, i want to respond, is there. But if you also, if that’s the hole that you do, you may not be really seen as a sustainable organization undressing all of those layers of change and i think that’s a huge opportunity. No, you’re seeing yourself. Yes, tio. One dimensionally. All right, let’s, take this break. Tell us i have a new tell. Oh, simoni yl for you, quote tell us has allowed my business to support my favorite charity without even feeling the pinch of writing a check. I am donating money every month that i would have spent on credit card processing anyway. Also, their customer service is far better than we’ve ever had. End quote, the businesses you refer are going to love tell us one hundred percent satisfaction among the businesses that you’re among among the business is working with them. Get started with the video at tony dahna em, eh slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to poverty porn with very insightful example. Ward um, yes, and we were just saying, yeah, it it narrows that the viewers focus to just donate and there’s a lot more that you can do. I mean, and, you know, if we’re talking about bonem poverty and hunger, i mean that that could reach to, you know, advocacy around global climate change policies, which you’re never going to get from these one dimensional ideas. No, and this i mean, i also don’t want to that folks listening now to our conversation up for this idea that every single tweet, every single picture, every single email appeal needs to talk people through. How do you know this action today is connected to this action in this all the way up that’s not what we’re trying to recommend that every single one of those has to include all of that context, but it should always include the context of what really you’re asking for if you are asking for donations for a really immediate need, the donation is still not the actual transaction of those medical supplies. Most likely right? So so at least framing it truly in what it is people are donating. Teo, was there an earthquake? And you’re well, these donations are in part to buy medical equipment and to support those medical teams administering it. Well, that’s also really great story. Who are these medical team? What kind of expertise are they bringing? You know, you don’t just have to focus on transactions because when you do, you make both the donor feel like they’re participating and transaction and the people receiving this support hyre the end of a transaction, i don’t think anyone really means for that i like, you know, back to that good intent, a key intent is not impact, but also even even in this case, i don’t think that’s really what you intend, you know it, so so raise that up and don’t focus on, oh, this is just like your example, before i really like that, you know, now these hands are full does not what happens in here, you know, and so really talkto what is happening and at a a tactical level, you know, there’s, this is opportunity for terrific content. No, you can direct people to interview, and i was talking about fresh content and depth of content there you can tell the story elsewhere, so the tweet is brief. The tweet is briefed, the facebook post, the ad, whatever is brief, but then there’s a link to you know, the back story back-up more to medical in this example who these medical teams are, you haven’t instagram account well, you could do you know instagram stories with either you know, actual quick video interviews update, facebook live there like there’s a ton of rich content you could have when you move to trying to really own what you do and what your story is. Instead of trying to focus on this idea of really, really immediate really, really fast transaction because that’s not the humanity that you want to be representing anyway. Yeah on and and wrapped wrapped up in all this eyes, you know, the idea of that, the important idea that the donations air not sufficient while while they’re necessary and we do need them, they’re not going to solve the problem alone exactly. The bigger context, you know that, and i love your idea, the hero you’re not talked about this a little oaky going well, just you, khun, you can actually then shift the spotlight to some of the work that you’re doing. Like you’re saying, you know, show videos of some of the programs and some of the care that you’re actually giving, you know you can you can shift the lens back to you as the provider, you know, when it’s all in the bigger context, it’s a part of the bigger falik well, i think there’s two things to think about here one is that we talked about before any campaign, whether it’s a fundraising campaign, our advocacy or whatever it’s never gonna have only one ass, of course, every you know, kind of sector best practices. You only have one ascot a time. But once someone takes that action, they have made the donations. They have called their senator. Whatever you need to be ready with another ask because they were just willing to do what you ask them to do. You might as well tell them that to do something else right. So instead of having, you know, here’s eight different things, please do what you want. You give people want and when they do it, you take them to the next step. Then you take them to the next step and you just keep going. And well, from a tactical perspective definitely think about it that way. And from a content perspective, justus you’re recommending i love that get people hooked in and then have them kind of watch the whole thing. Play out right. Continue to see how the work is happening on the other thing to think about, i think, is that there’s a lot to be sad out in the sector right now about how you know there are certain changes in fund-raising that people are more connected to topic than necessarily a single organization that that they’re going to donate to over a year over year, you know that they care more about the topic and whoever is maybe doing something good on that topic is who gets their money. This is a great way to keep people actually hooked to your organisation instead of floating between organizations in the same cause because you’re not just getting them to have a single transaction with you because it was immediate and compelling and kind of hyre fast way for them to feel connected, you have then continuing to connect them to you with these with content, of course, but also with those continued actions, ways where they’re getting deeper and deeper into this and feeling like, yeah, i donated but also high, you know, submitted short message for the medical l came to provide to those children and, you know, they’re starting to actually feel like they are a part of your work, which is the whole goal of this instead of feeling like, oh, i feel relieved that i sent my ten dollars, for that organization, and i don’t even know who they were because it was just the organization i saw on facebook, right? So really shifting how you frame all of this is, of course, as we’re talking about today, you know, getting you out of this trap of poverty porn, but it’s also serving you to build rial community with these supporters? Yeah, it’s the how many guests we’ve had on urging the relation a ll over the transactional that’s you you put a lot of depth into it, but you and i have talked about it and other guests as well. That’s the way to stand out, you know, as you said, that’s, the way to bring people to your cause and keep them there while the ah a lot of a lot of activists and donors are you’re saying maur, mission oriented versus organization oriented. But you know, if you can draw them into your work, they’re right they will stay with you. It’s the relation act it’s the relationship of course. All right, you know, another another facet of this is that all you know, these regions are not monolithic. You know, all of central america, south america and africa are not poor on dh and needy and destitute, you know, there are thriving cities, there’s, beautiful, rich history, culture toe all of these, you know, to all the african nations and all these other parts i’m talking parts of the world i’m talking about. So, you know, e i think you want some balance there too, tuley and i think there’s argument to be made that there are can definitions that we had organizations we as americans, we as white folks can put onto what is ah, community experiencing property or what is a geographic area, that it lacks access to resources that are not going to be a shared definition by the people living in those communities. And i think that really important thing to remember as organizations trying to highlight the service you’re providing or the way that you’re serving that community, is that your definition of of their needs and comparatively to you you know how how quote unquote in poverty they are is going to feel different in their own lived experience, so finding ways where they can authentically talk about again, back to what was said at the beginning, you know, their hopes and dreams, their challenges, their life and the way that they benefit or appreciate the services is going to feel far truer and position your organization into their community than it is for you to say from the outside, you know, look at this community, we’ve kind of defined as needing this and here’s how we’re going to fix, you know, back to that idea that are you centering you and and the organization are you really centering this community? How how are you doing that? Recognizing that part of deciding you know that a certain community is or is not in need is part of that? We’re gonna leave it there. Any simple word? Excellent. Thank you so much for talking about the tony. I know it’s a a scary topic for some, but i think it was a good conversation. I absolutely agree, and we’re not scared to be a little provocative. No, not at all. Thank you. She’s. Amy sample ward at amy, sample ward, dot or ge? And at amy, r s ward, next week, two more from the non-profit technology conference. See sweet cross talk and capacity call out if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profit ofthis, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. 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Nonprofit Radio for June 29, 2018: Storytelling II & Test Quest

 

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Miriam Brosseau: Storytelling II
Building on last week, Miriam Brosseau has on-the-ground tips for digital storytelling that break down your internal silos and resolve organizational frustrations. She’s like your storytelling therapist, from See3 Communications. (Recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference)

 

 

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Nick Garcia & Jack Hilson: Test Quest
Email, landing page and digital ad testing: What it is; how to do it; and what to do with your results. Nick Garcia and Jack Hilson are with Mal Warwick Donordigital. (Also from the Nonprofit Technology Conference)

 

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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of our throw piau sis, if we issued a joint statement that you missed today’s show storytelling too, building on last week mirriam brousseau has on the ground tips for digital storytelling that breaks down your internal silos and resolves organizational frustrations. She’s like your storytelling therapist from c three communications that was recorded at the non-profit technology conference and test quest email landing page and digital ad testing. What is it how to do it? And what do you do with your results? Nick garcia and jack ilsen are from now warwick donordigital responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telus durney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us here is storytelling, too, with mirriam brousseau. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference in new orleans. We’re wrapping up our coverage of day two with mirriam brousseau welcome mirriam hey, tony, great to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you. Thank you. This interview with mirriam is sponsored by network for good is the use easy to use dahna management and fund-raising self where for non-profits mirriam is chief information officer at sea three communications it’s e three and her workshop topic is going to be talking about you like you’re not here. Your workshop topic is bust those silos exclamation mark how your digital storytelling khun build internal collaboration welcome again hey, uh, what? Uh, what’s, the overarching lesson that we should be learning like what’s the give us the take away the biggest takeaway about digital storytelling and non-profits not collaborating as well as they might internally. Yeah, absolutely so the way that a lot of our non-profit organizations are structured is intended to be convenient for the organization itself. How convenient for you built around efficiencies and and all of these more easy to manage things that don’t necessarily lead to a whole lot of trust or collaboration. And we’re living in an age today where everything is built around the u customer around the user around that individual person and so storytelling is a great mechanism for humanizing our organization’s overall and starting to build that that supporters centris ity and thinking about how we can shift our operations to be more about the people that we serve in the people who might make our impact possible very articulate. I do it again because we’ve been talking about donor-centric city for i don’t know, ten years or something on there still organizations that may feel they’ve mastered it, but i think our our yeah deceiving themselves, they’re still built around themselves and their saddles. How do we know? Okay, how do we know if we are one of the organizations? And i’m talking about the things we’ve mastered mastered it? We think we’ve broken down silos and we’re donor-centric but we’re not out of one of the symptoms we might be experiencing. How do we know? Yeah, well, you definitely feel it internally if there’s hierarchical management that, you know, really a sense of of control slowness of tackling the same kind of issues over and over without really getting at the root problem. It was like the first time we’ve done this thing. And we’ve done it a hundred times. Yes, yes, precisely so that and then you can also see it in your messages, of course. And so something that c three does a lot with our clients is will calculate what what we call a supporter inclusion score where you look at a single piece of messaging and basically tally up the number of times that you have mentioned the organization in some way, the name of the organization, the ceo, the name of a programme, whatever it is on dh, then you tally up the times that you’re using the word you or you’re referencing the word donor or volunteer or using their name, for instance, and you divide one by the other and see how closely you get two one for so, which would represent more of a partnership. Or if you’re if you’re above one, then you’re really demonstrating that that donor, that person you’re reaching out tio is the center of the story represented through that through that language. You and your yeah, very good words. Yeah. Working in your promotion and marketing. Yes. Shifting that book, it’s just a little bit. Okay. And now how is digital storytelling going to help us. So, there’s, we recommend sort of three step process for thinking about this. Ok, s o the first part of it is a three step process is like click candy for radio. Oh, yeah, you were goingto neo-sage okay, i got you click bait, ready and raring to go for you. So the three steps or the following, first of all, be sure that you are telling the whole story because a lot of non-profits focus on telling the story of the direct beneficiary and not a whole lot else. But when you zoom out and you think about who are all of the characters in our story, who are all the people that we really need in order to make our impact possible? It’s the volunteers it’s, thie, it’s, it’s the donor’s themselves who were usually talking to. But we could also tell their own stories. Their engagement with our missions is impacting them as people in a way more holistic storytelling. Yeah, absolutely. I’m putting a different word on it not but the whole story totally zoom. I’ll get a picture of all those characters on dh. Then think about if you were to position one of those characters as the center of the story is the hero. What would need to happen in eternally in order to gather that only one of those characters and the volunteers? Yeah, the programme. The programme officer? Yeah, doing deliveries up. Ok, so yeah. Ok. Andi, what do you got? Elsa? Right. So first of all, it zoom out, put that right. So zoom out until the whole story and think about it. Think about what are the what are the how do you support that story by through whatever internal processes and that’s that’s the really the clincher there? Because when you’re in a silent organisation to get a siloed culture and culture will eat your storytelling strategy for breakfast, lunch and dinner very well nourished someone recorded you saying that. Okay? I don’t know who was. I’ve done a lot of interviews, but someone said, you know, you know i’m not sure she remembered where she hurt you. One of the sessions i was in someone said culture will eat your strategy for lunch. Oh, yes. Cultures the hungry because you recorded you’ve been quoted on not brother radio. You know you made it i wish i wish you could have contributed. Well, now, the way now we have the attribution. Diego came from that’s great. So so the only the the peace of our arsenal that we have against culture, a culture and and shifting towards that that storytelling you centric strategy is process. Really. So how do we build it into our meetings and our interactions with everybody else in the organization? In order to move in that direction and sort of humanize on and then the final steps. So if you’ve named all of your you’ve gotten that holistic view, you’ve named all your characters you’ve centered one as a hero, building into the process internally, how you captured that story and then finally treating your colleagues the way that you would any good donorsearch a thank you, sell them, tell them the impact of what happened acknowledged that their contribution to this particular story had this had this effect on you personally or on the way that the story went out in the world or the impact of that story going further out. So, yeah, humanizing and putting those folks at the centre, it pays dividends altum i love the idea of thinking of your fellow colleague as a donor? I mean, how how would you treat a donor? Yeah, this search they’re making their character in that story. They’re making a meaningful investment in the work that you’re doing and should be acknowledged for that. Okay, all right, time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is the digital donation revolution, thanks to amazon’s one click to buy and recommendations based on purchases you’re online donors have higher expectations of you when they give online doesn’t matter that you don’t have amazons budget and expertise you know you need to measure up, get the digital donation revolution it’s on the listener landing page tony dahna slash pursuing radio now back to storytelling too. So let’s see how we, uh, let me break this down too. Wait till i tell the whole story way got to get out of this mindset that it’s all just about the person who’s enjoying the outcome with the right. How do we do this in storytelling? We want to do storytelling in like three minutes. I’m think of a video. Yeah, am i being too narrow? First of all, we’ll use a digital. Storytelling? Yeah. Do you mean beyond video? Oh, for sure, for sure. Okay. Well, kind of kind of content. You’re absolutely any kind of content that your parents know that you’re capturing. Tio talk about your your mission in your impact. Okay, so then how do we what advice do you have for starting the starting to be more holistic in the storytelling? Yeah, so i think, first of all, just literally listening out all of the people that are required in order to make your impact possible and and thinking about one of the things that we also recommend organizations do is think about what’s the intersection between your mission and that person’s aspirations for themselves. So our missions are very forward facing. We’re trying to change something. We’re trying to tackle some injustice and make the world better. So it’s all about the future. And so when we think about those different characters, we want to think about what they envisioned for themselves, for their future and how what kind of person do they aspire to be? And if we can speak to that speaks to that intersection of like, how does engaging with our mission helped these? People become the kind of person that they want to be, then we’re going to have a winning formula in our storytelling very esoteric question, yeah, so let me let me bring it down worse than often example, yeah, so it can be so, but i think it actually makes things a lot easier on us because it’s not about developing necessarily a whole user persona and getting it demographics and like, i don’t care if they shop at target or if they listen to spotify, i care about who they want to be. So for instance, we’ve done a lot of work with the make a make a wish foundation, and some of the characters are in their story are not just the wish kid who’s, the beneficiary of their work, but for instance, thie social worker who was referring that child for a wish, what kind of person does he or she wants to be? Well, they they got into this business in order to serve children and make their lives better and be able tio provided it in a way that they that the family’s night might not be able to if the kids going through a tough time and so in what ways does engaging with make a wish, help them reach that aspirational goal? Um and so when you put that social worker at the centre of the story and talk about their lives and what they’re seeing every day and then saying and what they bring to your organization, how we overlook how we overlap exactly, yeah, and so when so then the story becomes, well, i’m a social worker, and this is what i deal with every day, and when i get to tell a child that i’m referring them for a wish and that this is going teo, you know, it’s it’s, it humanizes your mission, it’s it exponentially expand your impact because suddenly you’re not just serving this single beneficiary it’s absolutely everybody who’s touched by that experience has an impact there being affected by that and it’s changing it’s, changing and transforming their lives and in meaningful ways to and so when you tell that story, it not only bus up things inside, where suddenly i have to talk to the medical outreach team in order to capture that story in the first place, but you’re also opening up a brand new door for other social workers for other people who see themselves in that kind of aspirational role, tio walk through and say like and say, oh, well, i want to be that so you’re not you’re telling the story from their perspective from from the perspective of each of the people involved in this handing over the mike being authentic about it service chain, or if you if you will oppcoll tell me more way our next step, yeah, i think so. I’ll give you another. I’ll give you another exercise because the venn diagram overlap thing is kind of esoteric, so s so when you do have that that list of characters and just list as many as you can be as specific as possible, one exercise that we walk through people through is to do a very simple mad lib you space, which this so the first. So the first space is you take this particular action, you do this thing which and then named the impact. So you, for instance, the social worker, you refer children to make a wish, which does you know all these wonderful things for that child and their family, and honing in on the u which language for each of those characters, is a really powerful exercise, because first of all, you don’t get to name your organization and you don’t get to say you, you don’t get to talk about your programs, you have to go straight from that supporter to the impact that they make and your organization is the witch it’s, the it’s, the means it’s, the facilitator it’s the mechanism by which that that person is making their impact in the world. There’s not even name. Yeah, yeah. So that’s that’s part of that that donor-centric city, that kind of shifting that perspective, you language. It always starts with a u and so an exercise of simple is that can be kind of the core of your messaging for that particular persona or audience segments. Okay, very that’s, great it’s, super fun and it’s. Great to kind of get out of the box with thinking about that for different, for different folks and to really, like, hone in on it and on give it some poetry about and there was this the way in which we make them the hero of the story it’s a it’s. A great way to start. This is the starting, you know, we don’t. Yeah. Okay. We’re not quite there. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. So let’s, let’s go to that way. So any one of these characters in the chain of service, any one of these important parts in that chain can now be the focus of the story and how they interact with our organization and our service beneficiaries? Yeah. Okay, give me give me another client story would make a wish or another one that this is you’ve seen. You’ve seen impact. Yeah, absolutely. All the love story of so many great stories. Well, i’m going to give you another make-a-wish example, just because that’s, they’ve got some great, powerful stuff and that’s the first thing that came to mind. So in some of this work there’s a minnesota chapter of make-a-wish made this beautiful video in which they positioned one of their volunteers is the hero of the story. And instead of necessarily focusing on the on the wish kid and it was this story in which the child himself had a condition in which he was unable to speak and really move around a whole lot. And his wish was to have a door really to be able to go out into his backyard and and see beyond the four walls of his house, which immediately just like tugs at your heartstrings. So but telling his story in a way, is not terribly relatable. It’s not i can’t. I can’t really empathize with that situation and it’s actually a little uncomfortable to even think about that and so repositioning story, they they put the hero as the contractor, the builder who actually came in and made that possible, and they talked to him. They talked to the people that he worked with, and i think it they showed the emotional and just sort of life affirming impacts of that being involved in this wish had on that person who’s like this, you know, fifty some year old contract huge e-giving door who’s just building a door, breaking a wall on drilling a door. But he’s the hero, you say he’s, the hero of the story and you watch that and it is so it’s, so emotional and powerful and just draws you in in a way that the story of the wish kid never could and part of what i think this this kind of mentality forces us to do is to recognize that everybody’s got a story everybody’s being transformed by these little moments. And what i love about about storytelling about shifting messaging in this way, is that it? It builds a culture of noticing and of paying attention. Yes. Being intentional. Yes. Paying e-giving attention to others. Yes. How did that story gets told? Was it was it through video that was through video? They had a video version of it. They also published it as as a block post. But it’s ah, yeah, they had a couple of different versions, but the video itself was was the most powerful representation. Okay, we, uh, just got a note that the whole point five o’clock and we were misinformed. So listen, i need another. I need another ten minutes. Can i get ten minutes from the security? You could see that we’re on camera. Right? Gonna get can i get them? Really? I mean, i got a fifteen minute, you know, we’re going to do this for another ten minutes, okay? I don’t know what the time of day is, but i know that. Mirriam and i have been talking for almost sixteen minutes, and i need another ten. Is that okay? Wait, don’t go anywhere, and i’m sorry, we we didn’t know that we were told that, yeah, okay, thank you, little side conversation. Just have the security, gentlemen. Thank you, thank you, sir. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m not cutting us off. Fundez live, live, live, recorded in every story, have to have that challenge that has to be overcome, so this is us on the other side. All right, so that was a video story that contract. I love that it’s. Just the guy. We just came to break the door. All right, build a door. Yeah. Let’s, keep going, let’s. Keep going, people. This idea of treating your colleagues the way you would treat a donor you said mohr. But that part resonated with me and we flush it out a lot more. Sure, we just lost the light. Okay, garrett, we’re losing the light. The hole is closing. Okay, it’ll come back. Garrett says it’ll come back on. Okay, there we go. All right. Non-profit radio perseveres. I don’t care what happens. Yeah. So we’re going nowhere going nowhere. Nobody’s going to take us that? Yeah. I mean, i think that heart of especially when you’re working in a silo toe organization. It’s very easy to get caught up in what’s wrong and focus on the tough stuff and want to fix all the problems and anybody who gets involved in non-profit work is a fixer, right? That’s, our that’s, our inclination. We want to make things better. And i think sometimes that we end up losing sight of what actually working. And it’s been shown in all kinds of organizational studies and with with regards to our the way that we change ourselves. The whole positive psychology movement, for instance, is built on this. Premise that if you start with what’s working, you can actually demonstrate more progress more quickly and, you know, put together these sort of lasting change efforts. And part of starting with what’s. Working is is acknowledging the good stuff and saying thank you and being appreciative. And it just changes. It uplifts the whole culture. Is there a client story that you can share that where you saw you saw this make a difference in our organization? Yeah, i mean, i think so it goes hand in hand a little bit with building that storytelling piece into the process as well, these three elements of kind of knowing all your characters, building in the process to gather those stories and then reporting back on the impact and saying, thank you s o we had ah, ah, a little while back, we did a strategy engagement with hillel international, they have a they offer one of many versions of ah, trip for young jews to go visit israel and and build that a nation with it with the country and the people, and they were having a hard time differentiating themselves from the other providers and sort of saw it as a marketing challenge. And what we’ve learned in what we’ve learned that c three is that most marketing challenges are actually internal alignment challenges that can be that, like, with a few little internal tweaks, you can actually do a lot better. And so part of what we built into that strategy into their process. Was first of all regular story gathering moments between them in the united states and the trip providers in the inn in israel s o that they were getting those stories of these transformative moments that were happening for both the kid’s on the trips themselves, and for the and for the trip leaders on all of these different perspectives, right of all these different characters in the story, and as part of that it’s also there’s also an element of just reporting back on this is how we use that story. And this is the reach that that it had and like, thank you, keep it up. And so what happened after we worked with hillel international on that is made a few internal alignment shifts got them to kind of rejigger their messaging. So it felt a little less stock photo and a little less advertising on more story oriented. And they increased their recruitment for the trip by forty percent in a year. Outstanding. Alright, what what? What are some of the questions you got in? Uh, in this in this work in the workshop? Yeah, a lot about pushback from leadership. I’m interested in what was amazing in the feedback you got from non-profits oh, yeah, yeah, there’s in the audience yeah, i mean, we got we got some great little anecdotes of just like those tiny little shifts that people can start making in in order to start building this this more aligned human centric with the culture and some of them some of them are technological fixes, their great organizations out there that are using slack channels capture stories and to share back the impact of the work that they’re doing and the importance of everybody kind of being on the same page around storytelling and digital communications and all of that, which is wuebben so deeply through all aspects of our organization that it actually becomes this really great vehicle for tying everybody together. You said there were some leadership leadership pushback, yeah, so one of the, uh, some of the big questions were just like, well, what if leadership doesn’t? Buy-in, um, what do we do if i if i asked to sit in if i’m the marketing person and i asked to sit in on the development meeting and i’m ruffling somebody’s feathers because i’m on their turf? Then what do? I do about that. And our advice was really well, first of all, don’t make it about busting silos, that’s, that’s not an end in itself. There’s there’s, some other bigger mission and story to be told here on dh. Secondly, start from that point of strength. Start by asking their advice. No. And going there and and, you know, kind of making their idea if you can. But but going in with a with a sort of ah listening, learning, pasture, a supposed toe. I’m going to do this thing and knock down these walls and so it’s a little bit more of that appreciative stance. And starting again from the assumption that everybody has something to offer, everybody has a story to tell. Start with what you have exactly. Okay, start from strength and build from there. We still have another couple minutes left. It got very quiet. You notice there’s? No. Yeah, but in the din of the exhibit, flora’s has been eliminated. Not just gone. Not just quiet. Are quiet. Indeed. What else can we say about this? Er there’s. A couple more minutes. What more did you share in your your session? Yeah, i mean we shared a so there was the buses silas session. We also did michael hoffmann, founder of three, say, three communications and stroll before yeah, exactly s o he and i also let a session that we entitled digital minimalism, which is a which is a related kind of emerging idea that we have open that we’ve been playing with, which is really about this idea that s o thie middle melisa movement has sort of taken hold it’s gotten a foothold in the culture. People are excited about the idea of cleaning their closets and, you know, focusing in on the stuff that really matters and what does it look like? Applied to digital specifically for non-profits? And so what we talked about there was that you may associate minimalism with this idea of less stuff and that’s that’s important that’s definitely part of it, but really, the focus of the minimalist philosophy is that the stuff that you do have should be meaningful and should should be a connection to something t joy into purpose and all of this kind of stuff rather than getting in the way. Mission exactly, exactly commission for sure so is so four. Non-profits in the digital space thie equivalents, the digital minimalism is essentially this idea that, you know, the digital that we use should should thin the line between our supporters and the potential for them to make impact through our organization. There’s a lot of digital detritus out there where there’s a lot of sort of shouting about the stuff that we do and there’s a lot of things that we create just because that’s what? We’ve always weighed it, we need it. Yeah, and all this stuff. Yeah, okay, so did you get pushed back at that session to neo-sage from leaders or people questioning whether my leadership is goingto really be willing to shed? I mean, it could be you could be talking about zoho you’re shitting me, big parts of our communication, it’s challenging panels. Oh, for sure for sure it’s not serving, serving our greater need are serving our our mission. Yeah, it forces you to check a lot of assumptions and i think there’s there’s plenty. I mean, absolutely that there’s there’s plenty of organizations that are, for instance, you know, creating a dozen pdf reports that then go online because it’s written into the grants that they have to create a report and put it online. And so what do you do about that? Like theirs? That’s, that’s. A place where you have to kind of reevaluate whether this this philosophy is going to work in every area, or whether it’s just going to be something that focuses you in the places where it’s most plausible. Okay, uh, give us another two minutes of of the brousseau download. No man. Little community session. Maybe other questions that were asked. Yeah, well, i think a lot of the i would i would almost summarize both sessions. You’re going to get the total download and like a sentence hold right. I would almost summarized both sons both sessions as being about this idea of it’s. Not what you do, it’s. What? What you do does. Okay, it’s, not it’s. Not about what? What it’s impacted exactly. It’s it. And they end that. That idea that you know, non-profits do amazing things. We deliver great programs. There are there’s, there’s, webinars and services and meals being serves, an animal’s being saved and all of that. But really, the and we want to talk about all that. Great. Stuff, right? And put it out in the world and say, like, look, please pay attention to you know, we’re living this attention economy, but when we, when we take a step back and talk about not what we do but what we make possible and what’s through our actions were allowing to happen that transformation, then first of all, like it’s got that more sort of visionary feel to it, it’s, more it’s, more welcoming and approachable. I can relate to it because it’s not like this thing that may or may not have something to do with me, it’s not sort of it doesn’t become a barrier at all, and it keeps us sort of keeps us mission focused like that’s what we’re that’s what we’re here for, and it keeps us kind of owning that those outcomes and realizing that, like with all of this stuff that we’re doing it’s not about the thing it’s, about what we make possible through that thing. And if that’s the message that we can keep coming back to you through the stories that we tell and the content that we creates and the people that we can actually, then there’s hope there is. We’ll leave it there and that’s a perfect place to leave it. Thank you very much. Mirriam. Awesome pleasure durney persevering through the we’re closing. She mirriam brousseau and she’s chief information officer chief innovation officer. I’m sorry, mate. No, you’re right, it’s. Just a innovation. What i say information. I’m a fan of that too. She’s mirriam brousseau and she’s, the chief innovation officer at sea three communications this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits and you are with twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur, thanks so much. Let’s. Take a break. Wagner cpas check them out at weinger cps dot com if you’re on a fiscal year, it may be coming to a close on the thirtieth of this month. You need an audit or just your nine ninety regular is it? Take a look at their sight, then use the contact form or pick up the phone and talk to partner eat each tomb i’m urging you go in real life after you check him out online. Wagner, cps dot com now let’s, go to test quest welcome to tony martignetti non-profit. Radio coverage of eighteen ntc that’s the non-profit technology conference twenty eighteen in new orleans this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guest now are nick garcia and jack ilsen nick is senior account executive at mall warwick donordigital and jack ilsen is exactly the same senior account executive male warwick donordigital times two on dh nick and jack’s topic is the test quest optimizing your donor’s journey. Gentlemen, welcome to non-profit radio. Thank you. Thanks. Good. Have you, uh, okay, the donor journey let’s start with you, jack. What are what are donors not getting? I mean, i’m sorry. What are non-profits not getting quite right about this donordigital the experience. Yeah, well, you know, oftentimes when you’re in the poor poppet for-profit space ah, you’re thinking a lot about user experience, right? And where someone’s going to go, what they’re going to click on what they’re going to see, you know, and a lot of non-profits don’t have the time or think that they don’t have the time to capacity to really think through every little piece, so they’ll be not taking precautions or doing tests. And just rolling out what feels right to them. And so we kind of talk about how easy it can be and how simple it khun b to perform a p tests and rolled them out in your program in different ways. So we try to make it as easy as possible for as many different types of non-profits it’s possible. Okay, okay, so this s o jack, this does not have to say i’m sorry, nick. This does not have to be a complicated process, right? Exactly. Be testing is pretty simple thing. Exactly. Yeah, it is. And there are a number of ways that you can start, you know, very low level that doesn’t require a complex data management or anything like that. So i think we’re going to kind of run the full gamut of, you know, examples and things like that testing for for organizations that are just starting out, but also cem advanced testing concepts we really tried teo dig deep and and figure out some unique ideas of things that folks may not be thinking to test that we’ve seen in our work with our clients have some big impacts. Okay, well, we’re gonna do that here too. I don’t want you holding back on like we’re gonna describe what you’re gonna do talk about in your seminar. Sure you’re gonna do it here. I’ll do it. So you’re going. You were talking about the email landing page and digital ad testing. Yeah, let’s. Start with e mail. Is it one of you mohr expert in email than the other or equally fluent? I would say equally fluid. Okay, well, let’s, stick with you, nicholas. We’re there for now. Uh, what? What? Wait, what should we be testing? Yeah. What? I think when we think about email testing, we generally split that out into the email envelope the content of the e mail, which includes the copy, the design and then what’s the email envelope. So the email envelope is the centre name s oh, it’s, basically, what you see about the email before you open and a preview exactly when you’re so there’s the preview? Yes. So that includes the sender name. So you know, one example of ah really simple entry level test is whether you include the organization name in the from line of your email. You know, conventional wisdom tells you that, you know, you may want to include the organization names so that people know immediately who they’re hearing from. However, for a lot of our clients, we’ve tested out of that, and we are rolling out with just the ceo name because we show that that has had a significant lift in open rates, for whatever reason. So that’s that’s a really simple test. Another thing related to the way we exhaust everything that’s in the envelope. What’s on the envelope. Yes. So they’re sure we hit every. Yeah. Yeah. So what detail here? Yeah, absolutely. Do not hold out on us. So there’s the center name there’s the subject line, which is another important one bonem constantly testing that one another one. Is that that preview to pre header? Yes. Head of pre header. Yes. Oh, one of one of our recommended tests there is that we’ve been seeing a big lift with folks who are actually including a blank preh header. So if you notice when you’re when you’re scrolling through your inbox, you know, almost every e mail you received has pre header text. Those that do not now are standing out more. So so. We’re seeing, you know, just little that white space may exactly right. So and things like emojis and the subject line just, you know, things that really make the email envelope pop out. Nine box. Jack, do we assume that people are scrolling through this inbox on their phones? Now is most female is read by phone? Absolutely. You know, i think it’s been depending on the organization, you could estimate anywhere from thirty toe. Fifty percent of your donations could come in through mobile. So it’s, really important to not only be looked thinking about maybe your email envelope and how that appears on mobile, especially as you’re scrolling through very quickly, but also making sure that everything is mobile optimized and works well for for those folks who are looking at their phones. Ok? Eso we exhausted the envelope. Yeah, let’s. Stick with you, jack. Go inside the envelope now to the message itself. What should we be testing in that? What can we test in? Oh, so many things. Well, and we talk a little bit about a few different things, so we will go from maybe email format. Tio general design tests. Template tests that sort. Of thing copy tests weighs a email format. What what? Different formats? I’m sure i know, but i can’t think of them sure and sing them, but i was sure, yeah, and it may be going from plain text message tio ah, regular template that you might use every day kind of thing to see, and maybe the results of your tests between those two things is that you don’t get a significant lift for one over the other grand, and that may tell you that you don’t want to use plain text or it may tell you that you want to use it interchangeably at different times when it seems effective. So ok, i guess use of use of graphics embedded video do we? What do we know about how embedded video does in a female vs there’s a link to click through? Wei have research on that? Well, it depends on what you’re trying to get. If you want someone to donate video doesn’t help all that much. Of course it may influence click through, but it it probably won’t up your response rate very much it may actually, you may see a decline as faras response rate. Because people are just trying to go to your donation page to view that video and then immediately going okay, okay. It’s. Great for cultivation, though. Great. Very getting folks too. Bedded video abetted video. We’re talking about video eyes great for cultivation. I’m sorry. Yes. Yeah. Video is great. Okay. Okay. I was just trying to draw a distinction between embedded where you do. We have to do what you can watch video in an e mail. Can you? Yeah. You have it. Yes. It’s possible. Although there’s specific types of coding more more complex five and that’s. What made it? So i made him work. So if you get into technology issues with right versus just providing a link and it doesn’t work across all browser’s. Okay. Okay. That’s. Hesitation. All right. So you gotta be very circumspect about that. You’re not okay. All right. Uh, what else? What else in the message hyre in the inside the message itself. Jacket should be so, so designed. Tests generally, it may be, you know, like we had talked about overall template. But it may be something as simple as maybe black and white photos. More stark kind of imagery. Sad versus happy, that sort of thing that, you know, many children let’s, say your international relief organization. And and you have lots of folks of single children alone or lots of children. Together. I’m trying to see what’s more effective. If focusing in on one individual is going toe, actually pull at the heartstrings of your owners. Anything else in the e mail cell for we we met our way to the landing page? Um, i think a couple other things that we’ve seen valuable in-kind email testing is just the length of the copy itself. I think this is this is an area where a lot of organizations hesitates sometimes because they have been messaging with a similar length for a long time, and they meet they may feel hesitant to move away from that, but i think it’s important, especially were scared. Exactly. Yeah, on and it’s not an easy thing to test necessarily, you know, taking the same messaging and boiling it down from, you know, six long paragraphs to a really, you know, small bite-sized email is not an easy task. However, you know, i think it’s an important one, because especially in today’s environment and just the way people are used to processing information now is in much smaller chunks, right? So we’ve been seen, you know, a good degree of lifts with just, you know, testing short message versus long message, you know, just things like that about the time of day. Yeah, exactly. Right. Eso there’s yeah. Time of day. Day of week. You know, some some of our clients, are you there even segmenting out, you know, certain folks that are more responsive to messages at different dates and times, things like that. So, you know, they’re they’re so many, you know, complex options for testing and segmentation. Ok, ok. Are we on the landing page now, cheryl? Goodwill that okay? Okay. We’ll stick with you for a minute. Okay? What should we start there? Yeah. So, i mean, we talked about video for a moment. You know, that was one test that we ran on a landing page where, you know, one of our clients felt like they had a really captivating video that had a donation ascot the end, and they thought it would be much more compelling. And this this was at a time when, you know, video was really hot and a lot of non-profits were using that to dr engagement, so they thought, okay? Let’s test video versus a static image on a donation page and it actually suppressed response video did significantly on the donation page, you know? So i guess what the lesson there was that you know, you don’t want to necessarily distract the destruction was in my mind exactly. I mean, the weather is so video rich now visual in rich video, especially, but, you know, people go there for a single purpose. You don’t want them distracted. Exactly. And i think i think that that guy has a lot of our thinking around. Landing page optimization to is that you know you’re you’re breaking up the information on the page into a very concise headline. A very concise subhead. You have to keep in mind that most people are not going to absorb all of the content all the copy on any given page. So you want to, you know, really think about how to structure the page so that all the information is there for folks who want to absorb it all. But also that at a glance, they’re getting what they want so that they can, you know, move on and convert. Okay, okay. Um, jack, anything else about the landing page we should talk about? Yeah, i mean, more toe next point. And you brought up a good point as well. Tony, that, uh, and perfect host shot out. People are on their phones often doing these sorts of things. So making something inaccessible in that way, not just design wise. I i say this all the time and maybe it’s just being in the industry. But if i go on a web page and it is not mobile optimized, i will just leave. And so you you absolutely have to make sure that sort of frustrating. Now twenty eighteen, you have to scroll the sea, though, to see so much and it and it jumps and bounces and windows are not windows, but pictures disappear. Yeah, yeah. Don’t do it, please. Yeah, well, in in one test that that i’ve done with a few clients is adding tap oppcoll buttons to donation pages or action pages. So let’s say you go and there’s a tiny radio button and you have to zoom into the page to try to click it. And you’re clicking the wrong thing and it brings you to another page. So we tested somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. We call them fat finger buttons at some points to make sure that, you know it’s. Easier for folks to decide. I want to give you twenty five dollars instead of ten dollars, you know? Okay. All right. So that’s the landing page? Yeah. You were going to talk about digital ads, okay, testing digital ads. We’re nick. Where were all these digital ads? What kinds of retesting we’re talking social media ads. So facebook ads? Definitely. I would say that’s, where we start with most of our clients and definitely the google network is probably the thie biggest platform that we use for digital advertising. Okay, got to take a break. Tell us you’ve heard the talis moughniyah lll from lee elementary school, where they’re getting a monthly donation from tello’s for credit card processing of a parent owned company. You know you need more revenue. It can be recurring revenue every single month. Ask the people close to your organization who owned businesses to switch to tell us for their credit card processing. It started at tony dahna slash tony, tell us for the video now back to test quest with nick garcia and jack ilsen how do we tell testing with digital ads? They’re really two components, right? So you have the creative and you have the copy associated with an ad, so in most cases, we’re testing multiple versions of both. The image and the copy at a given time on and then essentially combining the two once you have a winner in each category to roll out the absolute best image and the absolute best copy you can to the widest audience, i think that’s the simplified version of okay, well, we can we can go into more detail, but what, you don’t hold out? What what percentage of your audience would you would you test with? I mean, you gotta have against tens of thousands of fans on your page to make this worthwhile. Yeah, well, i mean, we’re no, not fans know, but you’re mean, depending on the dollar amount, right in-kind so yeah. So when we talk about percentages for testing, we usually start with the budget number composed to the audience. Yeah. So for instance, you know, if it’s the first foray into testing and we’re looking at a budget of ten thousand dollars, then i would say, you know, dedicating at least three thousand of that to the initial testing before the final roll out would be, you know, a decent amount, you know? So you wantto probably dedicate in the neighborhood of twenty five. To thirty five percent of your budget to that initial testing. Otherwise, everybody only a thousand duvette appropriate, right? Exactly. So you want you want you want it to be scaleable, right? Okay, how about let’s? Go back to my erroneous question, but i’ll find somewhere it fits and let’s, go back to email a percentage of your email lists would you test with before you roll out the ultimate to the white fulwider story in when we actually have a tool for this on dh. This will work with ads as well. But we have a fruit free tour online on a website. The bell warwick it’s m double d agency. Dot com slash lab w d agency dot com slash lab. Okay, crack receding. Yeah, and there’s there’s a bunch of different tools on there, but one of them is a sample size calculator. So you can and put the numbers of folks that you have to test from it. And i’ll let you know if if it’s how difficult it might be to get a statistically significant result from that kind of test. Okay. Okay. Can we generalize? Tow? How big an audience. How big a list? You need teo be ableto do successful test. I mean, is a thousand enough? Or is a thousand to small? Well, it depends on what you’re testing. And we thought you could just go to the tool. All right, i put you on the spot. I thought maybe they were generalization, but just if it were not a drastic test, then it may take a long time t get that kind of a result. Also latto the toll just use. Yeah. Don’t pay attention of the host question. Okay, so now we’ve got all this data from our email. You know, the envelope, the message itself landing page our ads. What do we do with all this? All this data in each segment, it’s, not just a simple has male the best one or you know what we do with it. All right? Yeah. That’s a that’s. A great question. And you know, we give a few examples that aren’t as simple as okay. Here’s the winner. So we roll out with that all the time, right? For example, we ran a test. That was an email designed test. So we had a very pared down text on ly no. Images designed template for an email versus the kind of standard template where you have the call to action, photo, etcetera and the results there were actually inconclusive, which in most cases is a worthless test. However, to take away their for us is that we can use both of these templates interchangeably, right? So, you know, since one of them is not impacting negatively or positively the performance that gives us two options to choose from s o that depending on the message, if we have a very compelling image, then we use that template if it is more of a text heavy message or, you know, just something where we want to mix up design versus no design that gives us options so it’s important, teo, you know, be able to assess your your test results to and figure out, you know, how to use that effectively, okay, i think i think, yeah, they’re different circumstances for every organization, which is something that we kind of tried toe andi and people say that a lot, but we try to use a lot of different examples in our presentation toe to showcase the different ways that these things and go and really, what what we’re trying to teach is the thought process, right? Like, how can i use this to my advantage? What can i do with these results? Do we need to test again? Where can i go from here kind of thing. So maybe you test using the colors black and red against using blue and white, and you’re finding that black and red is is a statistically significant lift for you for click through rates. For instance, maybe you just want to rule that out during your end when you really care about getting those dollars in and hitting your goals because if you’re using black and red constantly, people are going to get tired of it. It’s not going to be effective, you lose, you lose that lift. Okay, okay. Your description. Talk about unconventional unconventional but practical testing idea. These the ones we’re talking about this is these don’t sound unconventional today. My wrong are they may be they are unconventional. Yeah, no, i think you know, we try to provide ah list like a take take home list essentially at the end of our presentation of of things that we’ve come up with that we didn’t necessarily that aren’t considered conventional in the world of test. Yeah, start talking about okay, pick us off. All right, so in terms of ah, email, copy testing, one thing that we found have a significant lift is highlighting the call to action in an email with, like the simple yellow formatting, like what you’re used to in microsoft word, right? Because it automatically draws the attention people are, you know, programs for lack of a better term to to automatically go to that, right? So we’ve seen big lifts there similar similar thing is ah, increasing the font size of your call to action in an email things like that really simple, something simple like that? Yeah, just really, really simple things. Another one where we saw, you know, like over a thirty percent lift in our email response rate is changing the color of the button, you know, just things like that button formatting, another one that we’ve been doing a lot, ok, last one because i want to see some projected yeah, okay, one more is ah, making a dynamic button so you’re on the donation page, you select to donate twenty five dollars. Monthly, the button automatically updates at the bottom of the page to say, give twenty five dollars monthly or process my twenty five dollars monthly gift. We’re seeing much hyre response rates with with dynamic button testing like that is that when you mouse over, it actually changes automatically when you selected on the page. So the button goes from saying donate or something generic to to the customized amount so it’s kind of confirmation for the donor within the process that they are giving exactly at the level that they want teo and what’s, the difference you’re seeing with that we’re seeing we’re seeing significant lift on that. I think the last time we ran over one of my clients, it was ah, fifteen percent hyre completion rate. Oh, so some people, after they click the donate button some people don’t complete. Exactly. Okay. That’s what? I was missing? Yep. I thought some people back out after clicking. Well, it wouldn’t be. It would be after they select the gift amount. Right. So you come to the page and when you start filling out the field information, there is a gradual drop off in there in the completion people. Having second thoughts as they’re filling in their credit card number and their address, and write some people back out at that point, yeah, so whatever it is, it, it helps. It helps the process along. Okay, write that that changing of the button. Yeah, after it’s, click exactly it’s and confirms the donation amount. Yep, okay, jack, you got some. Yeah. Ah, similar kind of dynamic aspect is bringing in. Ask amounts from an email tio the donation page so let’s, say, or maybe even heis previous contribution, right, you have that information on file, maybe it’s listen, you’re sierra, you have it dynamically pull in from that person’s record onto the donation page, so that may be it selects immediately their highest previous contribution say that’s twenty five dollars, and then uses an algorithm tio go from there and calculate other likely of amounts that they would get if the ask string is the track. Ok, ok, alright, so thats awesome, okay, you got another one? Sure. So, like clicking kapin offgrid click candy for radio when we’ve done that similar on donation and advocacy pages is and and also also an email actually testing the call to action on language on buttons. So if you could use a more generic donate now or match my gift or something that you might use across your program generally, or we’ve tested that against more mission based colston actions. So, you know, help animals right away or, you know, stop trump or something like that that that actually has increased not on ly conversions on pages, but also click through is on e mails. Okay, okay, we just have about a minute or so left. So, nick, i’m going to give you the wrap up. Just remind us of the motivation. I mean, there’s so much we contest what remind us of the value of doing all this, i think the value for the donor for the dogs, the donor journey don’t write mirriam yeah, i think, you know, it provides it, provides them with a personalized path. Right? So it makes them feel like what they’ve done in the past eyes being acknowledged and that things are as easy as possible for them. And ultimately, you know, they’re here to support the cause is and we want teo enable them to do that in whichever channel they choose. Andi, we want to be able to show them their impact as quickly as possible and in his many ways as we can. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you. Alright. Thank you. There are nick garcia, jack ilsen. And they are both senior account executives at mall warwick donordigital, thanks very much. All right. Thank you. My pleasure. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen. Ntc on this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thanks so much for being with us. Next week, trust me. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Weather cps dot com and tell us. Credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dot, m a slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is vices and chavez on our music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get a drink. Nothing. You could. Hello, this is bruce chamlong, host of the web design and technology coach. 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