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Nonprofit Radio for July 6, 2018: Peer-To-Peer Peek & Poverty Porn

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Noah Barnett & Kenny Kane: Peer-To-Peer Peek
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares an overview of community-driven fundraising. How do you plan for, inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from CauseVox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Poverty Porn
Amy Sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping, while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN).

 

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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into righteous, sardonic ous if you expected me to smile when you say you missed today’s show peer-to-peer peak, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares an overview of community driven fund-raising how do you plan for inspire and activate your supporters? They’re noah barnett from causevox and kenny kane with testicular cancer foundation and poverty porn. Amy sample ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively she’s, our social media contributor and ceo of the non-profit technology network, and ten tony take two a big lump of thanks responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telling by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, here are noah barnett and kenny. Kane from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference hashtag is eighteen ntc where the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits i guess now are noah barnett and candy cane. Noah is head of marketing for causevox and candy cane is, you know, the testicular cancer foundation. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for having us, this’s. Great talent. Yeah. No it’s. Great. Not that in ten things. Not great. It’s. Exceptional. Yeah. It’s. Exceptional. Thank you. And ten. Thank you. All right. Your workshop topic is community driven. Fund-raising how do you use peer-to-peer to cultivate dahna relationships and reach new donors? That sound familiar? Yeah, absolutely. We just wrapped up our session. We’re already done. Yeah, we’re all done outside. Yes. Yeah, we’re on the downswing. So this’s the after party’s victory last put both put it well, community driven fund-raising let’s, start with you, let’s. Start close to know what’s what’s not being done quite right. That non-profits could do better. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is we’ve gone through a few shifts in fund-raising we went through this idea of there was, like, localized fund-raising back in the day, and then we went to mass fund-raising where we basically didn’t differentiate any of our appeals, we sent all that out. And now today, like, i think there’s a fundamental shift where we’ve moved into what we call the connected economy, where the lines between digital and offline are starting to blur, and that requires a shift in how we approach fund-raising and we see kind of a playbook for the connected economy is community driven. Fund-raising okay, b i like the way you you sort of set this up for us the lines between online and the physical world and our real life are blurring indeed, yeah, okay, so we’re bringing these things together? Yes, okay. Peer-to-peer community driven. Okay, yeah, we’re calling it the connected economy because we’re just connected to anybody anywhere, at any time, through technology and our lives are more connect xero never. So why shouldn’t our causes b similarly should should we be similarly connected to our cause is exactly through our community. Exactly. Okay, kenny, anything you want to add? To the start up? Yeah, i would just say that you know what? The testicular cancer foundation were really big on storytelling and creating compelling stories that resonate with our audience? Not only, you know, as someone who’s been through it as a caregiver myself, but, you know, we try to put ourselves on the other end of the computer screen or the phone. What have you where these stories will compel people to act compel people to donate compel people that take action? Okay, let’s, stay with you. You’re right, your description says and in fact, in bold face, your description says that you will share with us exactly how to do this. How did so where where should we start? Where we’ve been, you know, everybody sees peer-to-peer well, let me take a step back, my ok to synonymous eyes peer-to-peer and community fund-raising or you guys drawing a distinction between those two? Yeah, we’re definitely drawing in this sham. Please set. Educate me. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is what we’re calling the umbrella that lays over all the various aspects of fund-raising where your community of supporters are actually the key. Driver of success in the campaigns here, it appears your war is a tactic inside of that larger exactly and so in community driven fund-raising there’s kind of a scale of the different types of things that qualify as that that moves from organization led meaning, like the organization is starting a campaign like e-giving tuesday campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an annual campaign all the way down to supporter initiated, which could be i’m wanna raise money for cancer. And i’m choosing to do that for the testicular cancer foundation. But i decided, as a supporter to do that, he didn’t created environment for me to do that was organic. Okay, thank you so well. Refrain from making those two synonymous. I’m being too narrow. Choosing one method. One tactic. Okay. All right, exactly how kenny. Where where did wish we get started? We yeah, so appealing. But i don’t know where to get going. Sure. So in this rolling in my last role, which was a broader young adult cancer non-profit called stupid cancer. The same rules apply. So you have people who are affected by cancer? Cancer was huge. Yes. Did you have in north, like millions of kids and engaged around. Um, i know you’re probably right way did pretty well. Yeah, it still exists. They’re still there. Still hammered away at it. He’s going to take a little he’s, one of the co founders of super cancer. Yeah. Ok, so? So the long story short is that my father was diagnosed at age fifty with testicular cancer, which put me on a path towards can frat advocacy in my early twenties. And about two years ago, my friend matt first learn who’s, the founder of testicular cancer foundations and eighty want move from new york latto austin i said, sure. Oh, and i’ve taken over testicular cancer foundation. Okay, but getting back to you know that the same rules apply where we serve people who are in a a disadvantage spot going through cancer. You know, whether it’s a survivor, the patient, the caregiver who is helping the person caregivers often forgot. Yes, characters need to take care of them. So i was here to be coddled and cared for one hundred percent. That was made. Uh, so what we do is we see these people go along a path of being recipients of the mission. Being beneficiaries of the mission, and then they come back, you know, to three years out and, you know, they decide they want either run a marathon or they want to create a cancerversary party cancerversary is a really big milestone where on the, you know, annual date of their diagnosis or when they finish treatment which everyone they choose people will give back, and typically they get back to the non-profit that help them? You know, i think it’s probably similar in all chronic health. I know what i know. An oncologist office where they have a bell, you ring the bell, your final treatment? Yeah, i’ve seen a bell if tina got probable. Yeah. It’s a great milestone, you know, on and i had my own i’m sympathetic to caregivers. I mean, i had some sense of it before this, but during the summer this past last year, summer and in the fall so october, my mom was declining and i was my mom. My dad and i were were caregivers and just watched her, and then she actually died early october of twenty seventeen, so i it was became even more became even more aware of how. You need to take care of yourself. I know. It’s just one component of what testicular cancer is doing. Share the caregivers. You know, i often think that they have to be selfless. Andi, can’t you cannot give up your own life, teo, give another to get to another. You’ll burn out there’s a lot of self care that goes into your caregiver. So when we talk about the community aspect of community and fund-raising, you know, and i’m so let the host tigress i’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry about mom. Thank you. Host back-up kottler disgust like, welcome to the show cubine xero all week so community german fund-raising candy cane is goingto yeah, so the same rules apply so people go through this process, they come back and for every person who was perhaps turned away from the person going through this acute episode of, you know, not episode, but a stretch of cancer treatment. What? Not whether somebody wanted to give them food or take them to the doctor’s appointment person kind of turned away community driven fund-raising is a great way to really activate your community of people who wanted to help you and in the past, we have created opportunities for fundraisers to convert into things like travel scholarships to a patient conference. So if you’re this arrive, er, you could fund-raising within your community to raise money for travel reimbursement, so it’s not necessarily scholarship, is a little bit more democratic of a process scholarship can get a little tricky. So this skull, this reimbursement program that we did it stupid cancer actually allowed the people around the person affected to help fund their way to the conference while doing ah e-giving back to charity, getting the tax benefits all that. But it was just a really nice way of recognizing what that person had been through. It’s time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is the digital donation revolution. You’re online donors have high expectations of you because of the swift transactions that they enjoy at amazon. Zappos, even some banks, the digital giving bar has been raised. How do you get over? Get the digital donation revolution it’s on the listener landing page, tony dot m a slash pursuant radio now back to peer-to-peer peak and then so what’s the broader lesson for our listeners in small and midsize shops. But know anybody? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is just a reframing of how we approach raising money and building awareness for the causes that were advocating for okay, bye, basically recognizing the true value that every person in your non-profits community and as a community of supporters, whether they’re known or unknown supporters of your organization, typically we look at it from just a financial perspective. And so what community room fund-raising says, is that it’s not just about the money, that supporter khun give you its about their influence in the time they can give you a swell? And in the connected economy, the influence that a supporter has is actually more valuable than it’s ever been before, because brands are being kind of blocked out of feeds, whether it’s, facebook, it’s becoming really difficult for non-profits to reach any new people. And so by turning inward and saying, how can we actually empower our supporters by inspiring, activating and rallying them? Latto actually be the fundraisers for organization, ok, how do we get? How do we activate this within our own organization way we need to be thinking through sure, who should be. In the team discussing, i feel like we’ve spent enough time on motivation, what are some steps? How do we get started? I’m interested, but i don’t know how to organize myself. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, i think community german fund-raising is just like a lens on how you approach fund-raising and so i think it’s important to have non-profit leadership buy-in but also a fund-raising team in general and communications because communities and fund-raising is basically saying, we’re going to inspire people in our community becomes supporters rather than guilt them, then we’re going to activate those people that have true potential to become fundraisers and advocates for our cause instead of and we’re not trying to convince people to do that. We’re just activating the potential that’s already, and they’re already exists. Exactly, and they were rallying them together so fundraisers usually see raising money and reaching new donors as their responsibility. Community driven fund-raising says no it’s, actually your job to be a player coach and basically see your community is a valuable asset to helpyou fund-raising help you grow your impact, help you reach new donors, but i’m gonna ask you again. But how do we get? Started? I mean, maybe is that identifying certain people to maybe seed the program. I understand you’re not throughout the life of the pregnant thing, okay, you do something, you do something, but we need some seeds. Yeah, i think what we do is all we always advise people to understand the different stages of community fund-raising and so the first stage is inspiring. And so as you look at your current fund-raising whether it’s an event, whether it’s a male piece, how do you look at that piece and see it from a lens that you’re not trying to convince someone or guilt someone to gives your cause? We’re actually trying to inspire them and because inspiration leads to sharing and action. Okay, so so, yes, we wanted to share exactly. And then inside your current supporters, which is the second stage, which is activation, identifying key supporters that are ready to do something more. And so one of our customers world bicycle relief every time someone donates at that moment of inspiration that they’ve someone’s been inspired to support the cause, they want to provide a next step toe activate them to actually be an advocate or a fundraiser for the cause and so it’s something as simple as that by they implement this new program and they’re just asking new donors if they want to do more and presenting the opportunity. And if you apply the commuter and fund-raising methodology, you could find things across your current fund-raising program where you just shift your mindset to be how it can we make this more community focus rather than organization driven it’s sort of empowering them to indeed, i’m just adding another i mean, you’re talking about no inspiring them so that they share and then they take action. Yep, i guess i’m calling it empowering them and giving them well in power and giving them permission and maybe some tools. Two work with yeah, right, the backdrop is shaking video would be stable, it’s not going to fall, but it shook. I would have to say that, you know, historically, we’ve created fund-raising or maybe you donate twenty dollars, to yourself so that you don’t share this fundraiser with a zero balance the same rules apply to when you’re launching a campaign, you really need the buy-in have trusted ah, folks in your, you know, in your group people that, you know will create a buzz, and you certainly don’t want to launch it on deaf ears, right? Yeah, with xero balance, etcetera. You mentioned storytelling earlier, you seem to make a point of how important that is. How does that help us? I guess at the first stage that noah was describing inspiring the community, i think i think it contextualized is and provides insight into your motivation as a fundraiser. How do we start telling these stories? I want to get into the nitty gritty here, so, you know, obviously we’re up against the algorithm of any given social media platform and, you know, you could do it whether it’s, tio email or through, you know, social post, but really providing, you know, maybe a before and after photo in my case, where people are, you know, going through treatment and they come out with a smile on their face, that’s the best case scenario and just really humanizing it. You know, we talked a lot in our session today about being human throughout the fund-raising process, i think it’s really easy to get kind of technical and robotic about it and just create opportunities. For people that self serving, you know, creative latto fund-raising page and then never to be heard from again. I think. Causevox and, you know, i know. Using causevox. We aim. Tio certainly create opportunities for more than that. So you actually have a relationship with the non-profit as you’re going through the fund-raising fund-raising stages and and finishing the campaign about empowering people tell their own stories so that it doesn’t it’s not coming from the organization, but giving them the option to create a two minute self didio or log on their own power way actually saw this firsthand so and ten is a non-profit who hosts this conference, and what they did was they said, how can we raise money for scholarships so that people could come to this conference for free? Who can afford it? And one of the biggest things they did was they said, you know, we have ten board members that have influence and ability to do this and so let’s empower them to tell the community why ntcdinosaur others to them and fund-raising on our behalf, and so they were able to raise over eighteen thousand dollars, and i just saw the banner over there and there’s, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy different donors that came together to help support that campaign, and all they did was they said, hey, boardmember is ur supporters were goingto activate you to tell your story on our behalf, and they did it with did videos they wrote like testimony is different content, and so they didn’t say one thing to the other again. Theyjust activated those supporters and said, hey, can you share your story with the community and raise money on dh. They were able to do that and there’s people at this conference because of what those board members did in the stories that they told you. Excellent. So so starting capital so we’re activating people that they share a men that they take the act take the action of, of actually beginning fund-raising fund-raising on their own as we’re okay. It’s rise. Where going through this process of empowering, i would have described how you describe it. Do we need to circumscribe it a little bit boundaries around it? For listeners, that might be a little leery of maybe the the power they were transferring too much power. Yeah, we’re powering know it talked a lot about this during the session about giving, you know, the non-profit needs to give up a certain degree of control. You want to talk about that? Yeah. And i think that’s why? The third phase of commuters fund-raising is about rallying, not controlling. And so i think our default is well, how do we control this? How do we do this? How do we do that? I think in the connected economy, all the powers with the customer and it’s on the non-profit to realize that their supporters have more power than they think. And so they can try to control them. Or they can really say hey, let’s, rally this let’s, support this and help drive this forward, and so i think if you jump to taking a control position instead of how do we actually rally people in the right direction? Um, you’re going to miss huge opportunities really activate your community. You know, this reminds me of the fears that non-profits had around facebook. Oh yeah, allowing people to come it’s been going on for years? Yeah, come on their facebook page. I don’t know if we’re going to allow those car. Yeah, we should have opened commenting and posted. Yeah, well, circling back earlier we were talking about, you know, the storytelling aspect and in the cancer world and again in the probably the chronic illness world of non-profits it’s a beautiful thing when you have somebody sharing their story, whether we are sharing on the behalf, which is most of the time when you see in the comments let’s say they have a rare type of brain tumor or something like that they’ve never met or connected with another young adult with cancer, let alone somebody who has their exact same diagnosis toe watch that unfold in the comment section where now these people are going to be able to support one another, the fact that you facilitated that on the non-profit side, i’s, amazing and it’s only going to contribute to the overall strategy of activation and engagement getting people teo really buy into your non-profit buy-in to your mission. And you showed a great example that stupid cancer had a different name before it was stupid cancer, and it was, you know, this moment when they said everyone calls us stupid cancer because that’s the tagline so let’s actually switch. So he convinced the founder of the organization to switch the name to stupid cancer and make the name of the organ kapin line right and kind of say, you know, hey, like, we’re going to give power to this community that wants to be a part of this and that’s when they saw growth from two thousand two hundred fifty thousand like you saw hundreds of thousands dollars being raised because they just again said, hey, we’re not going to control this. We’re not going to, you know, they would correct people be like we’re not the stupid cancer guys where the i got every one of the other name it wasn’t i’m too young for this cancer and it’s very slavic, every word. But they gave up that control. And then they saw, like the mo mentum in the community like flourish. And i think what was interesting is that still progressed. What their mission, ford wass maybe in ways they never expected or never would have done themselves. But it’s still pushed the mission forward. And i think that’s the opportunity that non-profits small, large, medium all have today. And we see it time and time again with our customers at causevox and in parallel, you know, you don’t get to decide what school your audience is. The same sort of thing with fund-raising storytelling. All the concepts were presenting today, it’s all about the audience and did, uh, what about let’s? Talk a little more about building this into your annual fund-raising plan? Okay, okay, uh, what you’re the experts. I have a plan now, and i don’t feel like i’m sufficiently community driven or or at all community community supported what i need to rethink. Well, not just what we’ve already covered. But how do we get this in my plan? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is fundraisers have like the same playbook, and they just think if they do more of it that there’ll be more successful. Andi, i think that’s why the burnout rate for fundraisers is so significant in our industry is because they feel as though there’s one playbook to run, which is more events, more emails, more mail in wartime decides that they have exhausted that playbook organization. W ell, move onto organization, yeah, try again no more, yeah, and i think what’s also thing is it it creates this window shopping experience where you’re always looking at other non-profits and being like man, if i only had what they have, i would be able to solve and what we challenged our people that attend our session is that you really need to look at the challenges and reframed them. And so we said is instead of saying, okay, i need to do more of these things, it’s saying as part of my annual fundraising campaign, whether other things like we can do and what we provide, it was saying, how about we take a look at our community and see if there’s opportunities that we can inspire our community, activate them and rally. Them to actually help raise more money and reach new donors. Okay, that’s part of our annual can i would i would add that, you know, people listen, this interview who were saying, all right, how do i deploy this? You certainly don’t want to cannibalize anything that’s working for you, so if you raise a ton of money in queue for, you know, don’t don’t suddenly pivot and say, all right, i’m going to try to spread that out for the rest of the year, and then suddenly you’re exhausted by q for but there’s a lot of little things you can do through out the year like being more human, connecting with your audience, giving up the control is we’ve, you know, keep reiterating on just being more of a social entity, you know, that’s kind of what it comes down to is is it’s not a one way communication channel? It’s you know, the feedback goes both ways, yeah, yeah, and i think it’s, just even seeing the potential and being able to create the opportunities were actually saying we’re asking for more things than money, so a quick story i spent six years running growth at an international relief non-profit and i was overseeing growth, but that was communications and development, and so our major gift officers, obviously we’re hard core, like, go after money, cultivate new gifts year over year, and when i told them when i oversaw them was like there’s, other opportunities for these major donors to make a difference, their influence and their time are really valuable, you know, major donors know a lot of other major donors, and so we continually go back and say, the only thing we want from you is your money. We’re only going to get a portion of their value and so weak went to them and said, hey, you know, would you want to do something interesting by, like, leveraging your major gift to run a matching gift campaign? Or do you want to do a employee engagement campaign at your non-profit or do you wantto basically go into the business network that you’re a part of and share this opportunity, teo promote and inspire other people to support the cause? And what we saw is that the more that we got them to invest, their influence and their time, the more money they like. Well, how do you make those ass? You just picked off like three things? How do you make? So i think in the major gifts side, obviously, you know, it involves, like face-to-face conversations and having a conversation and providing examples of what other individuals but that’s, what people do you wantto do this campaign or, you know, activate matching gift? So what do you make those asks? You want to do your own work? Place campaign? Yeah, so i think obviously in major gifts, it’s different because you have a personalized contextual relationship with that individual. And so if you know that they’re a ceo of a company, you can have a dialogue about that and say, you know, how are you engaging your employees to give back as a community, you obviously care and see your legacy as giving gifts into our organization. How is your company doing? And so it’s having a conversation around that, i think in the broader sense where you’re asking a broader audience to do fund-raising is again making sure that you’re not asking everybody and just being like, hey, this is a new way that you can give to our information are give to our organization rather looking for segments of your audience that are ready to do something, whether that means they’re new donors, they’re volunteers, their board members, they’ve been giving monthly for ten years looking for signals that they have the potential to do something and that’s why we say that second phase is about activation because that means they already have the ability to do it. You’re just activating that, and so it can’t just be this broad sweeping thing where it’s like hey, now you can raise money on x y and z on behalf of our cause. That’s not gonna work. You just ticked off a bunch of very good identify irs indeed you are. Whom i who this might be appropriate for kenny, i want to go back to something that you said earlier. The feedback has to be both ways yet not organization too. Everybody correct this so that involved really listening on the organization’s it’s hard. Sometimes you don’t hear things. I mean, you might not. You’re not always gonna hear things you want to hear. Talk about. You know how how an organization khun sort of shift culture in terms of real listening, engagement that way i think i think you guys were just talking about some really important, which is the signals, you know, in a non-profits situation have a lot of people who will come to the table and, you know, people have ideas, people have always do this, you should do that. And, you know, one of the things that we always say is if you don’t pay attention to mission, eh, you know, mission b, c and d, whatever we’ll all fail. So listening is important, you know, for us, the example of changing the name of the organization was kind of a really big undertaking. When you look back at it, i think that you just have to have a qualifying process, you know, kind of ah, multiphase approach to letting feed back into the top and looking at the person who is suggesting it, and kind of like i said, creating a rubric to take me back in and, you know, you have a border directors for a reason. So if the board is providing you with information, obviously it’s probably a good thing that listen to but also people who were out of the core. Of the apple can sometimes ride the most meaningful feedback and again trying to figure you gotta be you gotta be ready to hear that, you know, not only not only listening to your board and also where they’re coming from, what is their motivation for providing this feedback? And if i can have two things that what we did at my non-profit is first and foremost we had to convince the organization that the donors in our supporters actually mattered so much of our head was like, we’re doing great work, and we just need people to give us money. And so what we did was every week we had an hour designated, so we got leadership buy-in where everybody in the organization wrote thank you notes to donors, and so that started to say, hey, we’re going to center on this, and then we started doing what? Like surveying or net promoter scorer type things where we asked, hey, you know, would you recommend our organisation to a friends, family or colleagues? If so, why? Why do you support our organization? And we actually started using their responses in our fund-raising copy because they were telling us why. They support our organization in a way that was specific that we could actually share with others, and they also told us ideas on how we could improve, and so i think the person foremost is you have to cultivate that idea that you’re actually gonna listen because you value that person’s opinion, and second is you just have to ask, i think we asked for money all the time, but we don’t ask for what people think or why they support our organization or how could we improve this organization? How could we reach new people? We asked that question to a small segment of donors. They gave us tons of ideas that we were able to filter throughout our organization. Good dahna we’re going to leave it there, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for having us. You’re not on the you’re not watching the video. They’re both redheads on thei r noah barnett, head of marketing for causevox and can he came ceo of the testicular cancer foundation and cofounder of stupid cancer? And so i have that right way. Three a curveball and you just handled it. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. You get to use overviewing ingratiate something alright, way where he’s trying to get in by the back i’ve been listening sarrantonio twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ninety see this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break, wagner cps in the last two weeks, we had segments on storytelling. You don’t want your storytelling to be so compelling that it leads to restricted gif ts or even or just lots of restricted gif ts regular has you covered their block post is avoiding restrictions from donations inspired by storytelling it’s that wagner cps dot com click resource is then blawg in a moment. It’s poverty porn right now! Time for tony’s take two i have a big lump of listener thank you it’s not segregated it’s not discriminated against by whose name listed first or second or third. And, of course, any discrimination on non-profit radio is benign non video ce discrimination anyway, but we’re not doing that this this week. I am just grateful to everyone who listens to the show supports the show exultant and that i don’t care what platform you listen. What time of day, whether your digital or analog, however, you are listening to the show or supporting the show. Thank you. You make maybe ah, you’re just you’d listen occasionally and you get my insider alerts. So you know who the guests are each week you cherry pick that’s. Fabulous. Take it as you need it. Thank you. To everyone who listens and supports non-profit radio. My video gratitude is that tony martignetti dot com now, let’s, bring in any sample ward. She is our social media contributor and ceo of and ten, the non-profit technology network. Our most recent car, third book is social change. Anytime. Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample ward, dot or ge and at a m e r s ward. Welcome back, amy. Sample word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s. My pleasure to have you back. This is, uh uh. This is the have you been back on the show since and ten since auntie si thie ntc. I don’t think this might be the first time i think it is. I’m pretty sure because i was leaving you alone. Because i figured, you know, there’s clean up to do and thank you’s to sand and lots of stuff. So, um, and then you had a staff planning. Then you have your staff planning time. Yeah. So to two times a year. All of the staff. Because not everyone is here in the portland office. Let me have some remote dafs. Everybody comes to portland for a week together of planning and craft and happy hour and things like that. Wonderful. Yes. I think they call it staff planning, but planning is not all that we dio excellent. Nor should it be, because you’re all together only twice a year. So you have many vulture virtual employees, so congratulations on a wonderful and fun. And i hope from your perspective, successful certainly was for mine. Ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, i think it was a really good year. You think so? Too good. Yeah. I’m good. I’m definitely fun. I know it was fun. I know that’s. Not a question, but we’re doing it for a little more off. Just the fun purpose fundez one is up, there fundez up there, but education and technology, you know. They rank, too, but congratulations, thank you for being part of it again. Thank you. It was my pleasure. We gotta lot. We got thirty interviews for non-profit. Yeah, great, no, thank you. Okay, so we’re talking today about poverty porn. You said this had come up for you in aa, some discussions or members have been raising it. You’ve you’ve been hearing ah, little more chatter about this. Yeah, i think that organizations are organizations have been criticized for participating in poverty porn for years, but i think those have often been organizations that are really, really big operating on an international scale global scale that are maybe more vulnerable to criticism, because so so many people are saying what they’re doing, and they’re raising so much money. And, you know, with all of that kind of spotlight and revenue, i think naturally organizations, regardless of what they dio, are open to criticism of lots of different forms, right? But now i think organizations, they’re starting to see yes, well, you know, maybe criticize those organizations for years, but also maybe we’re a part of that. And what does that mean for us? You know, you don’t just have to be really, really large organization are making lots and lots of revenue off of a single appeal to have some issues with the way your year doing your work, so i think it’s organizations are starting to see that there, maybe starting to ask more questions because they’re getting, you know, the the digital teams who are managing that content are starting to feel like if something does happen, you know, they’re the ones that posted that photo or sent that tweet or whatever and really wanting to figure out how how to navigate what what’s the best way to tell this story? Yeah, andan avoid a potential backlash. Yeah, um, how would you define this? Do you? Ah, i have a way, but i’m going to hear, you know, how would you define poverty porn? I got i don’t have probably an eloquent, succinct definition, but if i was explaining poverty porn, teo an organization i think you know, without knowing whoever we’re talking to what their mission is, you know, poverty point is when you’re who’s may be taking advantage of the difference between the audience you’re calling tau action most often it’s for donations and these people that you are serving in whatever way, instead of maintaining the humanity of everyone involved in that situation and honoring all that all of those people have and really owning the story. About what you do in the power of in this example, their donation, versace trying to exacerbate the difference and the things that are, quote unquote not had about this group that you’re serving and focusing on that discrepancy, i think to me and is really what it’s about you you’re not maintaining everyone’s humanity and then highlighting the service, you provide your instead, maybe kind of further opening divide and most of the backlashes that i’ve seen or, you know, examples of this on the on the web are our images, but could be written off as easy as you can see, right majority video, but a written description could also be oh, totally exploitative or, you know, you have the language that we use to describe communities we could also highlight that that gap that you’re describing, yeah, um, no it’s ah it’s it’s very sensitive, you know, because we are trying to do very good work and we are motivated and our mission statements are or are around help of this vulnerable population, whatever it might be, whatever country it might be. I mean, it’s not a lot of the lot of the images are from abroad. I mean, i see a lot of, like, south america, central america, africa, but it could, you know, it could be right here in the u s to i mean, you could certainly go astray with images and written descriptions of conditions right here, right here in the u s certainly right, but, you know, so where were motivated by the right? Um, in the right directions, but right, but we, uh, you know, it may just be is easy, if, you know, consciousness raising, which is what our conversation hopefully is doing, and certainly a lot of the conversation, you know, like i saw things back too, like twenty, thirteen or so talking about this subject. So i think a lot of it because our motivations are, you know, i always impute good motivations toe non-profits and most people no, there are good, you know, it’s just raising country business. I mean, i think that is there are lots of tactical things that we could talk. Yeah, you’re right, it’s not just, you know, you’re right your underlying the thing that’s really going to create change is that organizations and the individuals in those organizations actually do some, really hard work two to figure out an address and accepts and try and move forward from all the biases that they’re bringing to their work the again, even if their motivation, their intent internally, is field pure and good to them, it could still be coming from a really kind of dangerous place that they are the savior of that community, right? And that in itself isn’t is a bias that’s going to mean you? You cannot create content, whether that’s, you know, photos are writing these descriptions that not coming from that place, right? So i think doing that internal work to say, gosh, how are we, you know, without explicitly like deciding to do this, how are we already coming at this from not the best a place you know, and as an organization, whatever the practices or policies that we have that can help us change that? I mean, you know, if we want to start at the big picture level, don’t think about tactics, things like do every single one of your staff regularly have opportunities to interact with the community members you serve if they don’t, they’re not in a position to speak from a place where they understand the shared humanity, they understand that everyone both inside the organization and those being served all have strengths and weaknesses and hopes and dreams and challenges and are at a place to really, i think, talk about the work anymore, productive way, you know. So even just at that level are you creating opportunities for every single one of your staff to be a part of the community? I think i’m always surprised how many organizations where they say, oh, no, if you work in the office, you don’t ever talk to the community, only our program staff do that. Why would you do that? You know, why would you create this while the silo between the staff talking about the work stopped deciding how the work is going to be done and the people participating in that work? That doesn’t make any sense to me? And those opportunities need to be more than photo opportunities do no the right there’s, lots of examples, you know, it has to be meaningful, you know, there’s one of the iconic ones, i guess infamous one’s better better than iconic. What if this one’s is, you know, eyes ellen. Too generous in nairobi with lots of kids around her and, um, there’s one of each year in wearing the red nose with liberian children around him. I know so. And what i mean, i think it’s really smart to bring that up, eh? Because now people now everybody listening to our conversation, i can think of the same kind of image, but also that i think totally the kind of thing that organizations i would think to dio with staff, right is like, okay, here, the folks that we serve here’s some of quote unquote us let’s take a photo together and inevitably, these photos like the two you just suggested when you’re years ago, like ellen and nairobi or add in liberia it’s like here is this person in the center of all these other people, and you are both figuratively and literally centering yourselves instead of centering your community. This is now not a photo about those people. This is a photo about you on dh that is kind of the epitome of what we’re talking about here, right? Is that you have come in to save them your services, you’re donations, you or whatever it is. Are literally the center instead of this community truly getting too to be in that place. So i think that’s a really great, like daily kind of check, check and balance for yourself when you’re when you’re looking at two weeks or you’re looking at the way you describe something that you’re looking at, a photo you can just say is this photo centering the people that we’re serving? Or is this photo about us? Um and there are certainly times where photo should be about you, but that doesn’t mean that the photo should be you surrounded by people you served. Maybe then it’s a photo of just your staff at, you know, the conference table looking on something or if you know what i mean it it’s going to be about you make it on ly about you and not you, in contrast to your community. Very good point about figuratively and literally making the individual the center surrounded by the community in need. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. See, that’s why that’s? Why we have you on? Because i looked at the same picture was an idea that did not occur to me. But that’s the brilliance of of aa expert. You know, lots of flecks of expert well, in this case, we have one expert and me, but other other people contributing exper, having experts contribute that’s what i mean, okay, you think about this, you know, it’s value of having multiple multiple opinions and and eyes on something very it was very well said, thank you for that. Altum i was thinking you by where i wasn’t thanking me for what i just said, that that was, obviously, you’re welcome. I always had a defective. I wouldn’t. I would probably not considered an expert perspective, but it is an opinionated one. You bring a lot of insight and used him to the show. Sabat yeah, you know, another part of the problem is that these images, their descriptions, you know, that it’s one dimensional, you know, right? If i’m here or if you swoop in with your donation from the united states that’s going to solve the problem, the child will no longer have empty hands reaching out, you know? And we just have a minute, but weaken, obviously we can keep talking beyond the break. Poverty is multidemensional mean, it includes govern the local community. The local community needs to be empowered, it includes well, and i think thinking about those layers, and we can talk more about this. Those layers of change that need to happen are are important. But also, as we continue to see, the kind of donor base of america change as boomer’s got older and millennials, you know, come into more of the majority in the world of social action that there is also your community. Your audience for this kind of message also knows there are multiple layers and maybe that immediate kind of got reaction of oh, my gosh, this crisis just happened, i want to respond, is there. But if you also, if that’s the hole that you do, you may not be really seen as a sustainable organization undressing all of those layers of change and i think that’s a huge opportunity. No, you’re seeing yourself. Yes, tio. One dimensionally. All right, let’s, take this break. Tell us i have a new tell. Oh, simoni yl for you, quote tell us has allowed my business to support my favorite charity without even feeling the pinch of writing a check. I am donating money every month that i would have spent on credit card processing anyway. Also, their customer service is far better than we’ve ever had. End quote, the businesses you refer are going to love tell us one hundred percent satisfaction among the businesses that you’re among among the business is working with them. Get started with the video at tony dahna em, eh slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to poverty porn with very insightful example. Ward um, yes, and we were just saying, yeah, it it narrows that the viewers focus to just donate and there’s a lot more that you can do. I mean, and, you know, if we’re talking about bonem poverty and hunger, i mean that that could reach to, you know, advocacy around global climate change policies, which you’re never going to get from these one dimensional ideas. No, and this i mean, i also don’t want to that folks listening now to our conversation up for this idea that every single tweet, every single picture, every single email appeal needs to talk people through. How do you know this action today is connected to this action in this all the way up that’s not what we’re trying to recommend that every single one of those has to include all of that context, but it should always include the context of what really you’re asking for if you are asking for donations for a really immediate need, the donation is still not the actual transaction of those medical supplies. Most likely right? So so at least framing it truly in what it is people are donating. Teo, was there an earthquake? And you’re well, these donations are in part to buy medical equipment and to support those medical teams administering it. Well, that’s also really great story. Who are these medical team? What kind of expertise are they bringing? You know, you don’t just have to focus on transactions because when you do, you make both the donor feel like they’re participating and transaction and the people receiving this support hyre the end of a transaction, i don’t think anyone really means for that i like, you know, back to that good intent, a key intent is not impact, but also even even in this case, i don’t think that’s really what you intend, you know it, so so raise that up and don’t focus on, oh, this is just like your example, before i really like that, you know, now these hands are full does not what happens in here, you know, and so really talkto what is happening and at a a tactical level, you know, there’s, this is opportunity for terrific content. No, you can direct people to interview, and i was talking about fresh content and depth of content there you can tell the story elsewhere, so the tweet is brief. The tweet is briefed, the facebook post, the ad, whatever is brief, but then there’s a link to you know, the back story back-up more to medical in this example who these medical teams are, you haven’t instagram account well, you could do you know instagram stories with either you know, actual quick video interviews update, facebook live there like there’s a ton of rich content you could have when you move to trying to really own what you do and what your story is. Instead of trying to focus on this idea of really, really immediate really, really fast transaction because that’s not the humanity that you want to be representing anyway. Yeah on and and wrapped wrapped up in all this eyes, you know, the idea of that, the important idea that the donations air not sufficient while while they’re necessary and we do need them, they’re not going to solve the problem alone exactly. The bigger context, you know that, and i love your idea, the hero you’re not talked about this a little oaky going well, just you, khun, you can actually then shift the spotlight to some of the work that you’re doing. Like you’re saying, you know, show videos of some of the programs and some of the care that you’re actually giving, you know you can you can shift the lens back to you as the provider, you know, when it’s all in the bigger context, it’s a part of the bigger falik well, i think there’s two things to think about here one is that we talked about before any campaign, whether it’s a fundraising campaign, our advocacy or whatever it’s never gonna have only one ass, of course, every you know, kind of sector best practices. You only have one ascot a time. But once someone takes that action, they have made the donations. They have called their senator. Whatever you need to be ready with another ask because they were just willing to do what you ask them to do. You might as well tell them that to do something else right. So instead of having, you know, here’s eight different things, please do what you want. You give people want and when they do it, you take them to the next step. Then you take them to the next step and you just keep going. And well, from a tactical perspective definitely think about it that way. And from a content perspective, justus you’re recommending i love that get people hooked in and then have them kind of watch the whole thing. Play out right. Continue to see how the work is happening on the other thing to think about, i think, is that there’s a lot to be sad out in the sector right now about how you know there are certain changes in fund-raising that people are more connected to topic than necessarily a single organization that that they’re going to donate to over a year over year, you know that they care more about the topic and whoever is maybe doing something good on that topic is who gets their money. This is a great way to keep people actually hooked to your organisation instead of floating between organizations in the same cause because you’re not just getting them to have a single transaction with you because it was immediate and compelling and kind of hyre fast way for them to feel connected, you have then continuing to connect them to you with these with content, of course, but also with those continued actions, ways where they’re getting deeper and deeper into this and feeling like, yeah, i donated but also high, you know, submitted short message for the medical l came to provide to those children and, you know, they’re starting to actually feel like they are a part of your work, which is the whole goal of this instead of feeling like, oh, i feel relieved that i sent my ten dollars, for that organization, and i don’t even know who they were because it was just the organization i saw on facebook, right? So really shifting how you frame all of this is, of course, as we’re talking about today, you know, getting you out of this trap of poverty porn, but it’s also serving you to build rial community with these supporters? Yeah, it’s the how many guests we’ve had on urging the relation a ll over the transactional that’s you you put a lot of depth into it, but you and i have talked about it and other guests as well. That’s the way to stand out, you know, as you said, that’s, the way to bring people to your cause and keep them there while the ah a lot of a lot of activists and donors are you’re saying maur, mission oriented versus organization oriented. But you know, if you can draw them into your work, they’re right they will stay with you. It’s the relation act it’s the relationship of course. All right, you know, another another facet of this is that all you know, these regions are not monolithic. You know, all of central america, south america and africa are not poor on dh and needy and destitute, you know, there are thriving cities, there’s, beautiful, rich history, culture toe all of these, you know, to all the african nations and all these other parts i’m talking parts of the world i’m talking about. So, you know, e i think you want some balance there too, tuley and i think there’s argument to be made that there are can definitions that we had organizations we as americans, we as white folks can put onto what is ah, community experiencing property or what is a geographic area, that it lacks access to resources that are not going to be a shared definition by the people living in those communities. And i think that really important thing to remember as organizations trying to highlight the service you’re providing or the way that you’re serving that community, is that your definition of of their needs and comparatively to you you know how how quote unquote in poverty they are is going to feel different in their own lived experience, so finding ways where they can authentically talk about again, back to what was said at the beginning, you know, their hopes and dreams, their challenges, their life and the way that they benefit or appreciate the services is going to feel far truer and position your organization into their community than it is for you to say from the outside, you know, look at this community, we’ve kind of defined as needing this and here’s how we’re going to fix, you know, back to that idea that are you centering you and and the organization are you really centering this community? How how are you doing that? Recognizing that part of deciding you know that a certain community is or is not in need is part of that? We’re gonna leave it there. Any simple word? Excellent. Thank you so much for talking about the tony. I know it’s a a scary topic for some, but i think it was a good conversation. I absolutely agree, and we’re not scared to be a little provocative. No, not at all. Thank you. She’s. Amy sample ward at amy, sample ward, dot or ge? And at amy, r s ward, next week, two more from the non-profit technology conference. See sweet cross talk and capacity call out if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profit ofthis, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. 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Nonprofit Radio for May 18, 2018: Blockchain and Bitcoin 101 & Be Data Driven

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Sheila Warren: Blockchain and Bitcoin 101

You’ve certainly heard of them. You’re probably confused by them. Let’s straighten it all out. What are these technologies and what do they mean for your nonprofit? Sheila Warren is a knowledgable instructor and makes it easy to understand. She’s with World Economic Forum. (Recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference)

 

 

 


Eli Hertz:
 Be Data Driven
What are the reasons to create a data-driven culture in your organization and what challenges will you face? Which tools can help you? Eli Hertz is from United Service Organizations (USO). (Recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference)

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer due to wrap a thie if you said primarily that you missed today’s show blockchain and bitcoin one oh one you’ve certainly heard of them. You’re probably confused by them let’s, straighten it all out. What are these technologies? And what do they mean for your non-profit sheila warren is a knowledgeable instructor and makes it easy to understand she’s with world economic forum that was recorded at the non-profit technology conference and be data driven. What are the reasons to create a data driven culture in your organization? And what challenges will you face? Which tools can help you? Eli hurts is from united service organizations uso that’s also recorded at the non-profit technology conference. I’m tony steak too it’s. Time to make time. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant to radio bye weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cpas, dot com and by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s here is sheila warren and block, jane and bitcoin welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. We’re coming to you from new orleans, the convention center there. This interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits my guest is sheila warren. Welcome, sheila. Thanks, tony. Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure. Sheila is head of blockchain and distributed ledger technology at the world economic forum on dh her workshop topic is started. I’m talking about you like you’re not here. You’re workshop topic is blockchain for non-profits fact versus fiction. Yes. Okay, um i’m gonna tell you this one has been intimidating me a little bit because i and i even did research on this research. My voice is cracking over, not nervous, but it isn’t intimidating because i’ve tried to crack the bitcoin, not blockchain, but the bitcoin topic two years ago at ntc it was not a dedicated topic. It was became a a digression that i created on i regretted it while i was mired in it and i couldn’t get away out gracefully and and we never really talked about you in what? What the heck bitcoin is okay, so since then i’ve done some technology. I’ve done some reading if i describe bitcoin as there’s, no there’s a greater fool. Does that make sense that you mean it doesn’t really have a value other than the hope that someone will buy it after me and therefore increased my value? I mean, is that i think you’re jumping right into the controversy right into the thick of it. I read the wrong article, i think that’s great, i think let’s back out of that. Okay, okay. Go in. Any direction you like? I did some research, but i don’t want to get mired in it. Okay? Bitcoin. Blockchain. All right, why don’t we start since bitcoin was popular before blockchain? Although i know that they are related in one relies on the other. I have that much down. So i think you’re ahead of many knowing that there’s a distinction between the two? Yes. Ok, i do. All right. I’ll just ask you simply, which i tried two years ago. What is bitcoin and how does it relate? Toe non-profit? Yeah, sure. Okay. So i’ll start by saying you know the number one thing i want people to take away anytime i do any kind of speaking is bitcoin and blockchain are not the same thing now they’re equated because bitcoin is built on something that’s called the bitcoin blockchain, so the terminology is quite confusing but the best analogy i can think of is that bitcoin is to block chain as email is to the inter so blockchain is a foundational technology when it is finally really baked into our systems, people will stop talking about it the way we don’t really talk about the internet anymore except we’re being a bit ironic. We talked about applications, right and bitcoin is an application on blockchain. It is the most famous application on blockchain. It was the first application on blockchain. Bitcoin blockchain was built for bitcoin. So be like if the internet was built for email, you could do other things. But it would be this equations were trying to do is teo that of course let’s tease it apart. These are a lot of other things you could do with a block to that have nothing to do with bitcoin. And even if bitcoin were to completely fail and go away. There would still be exactly the way it will be an internet without email. Okay, let’s, just before we get to the blockchain value on its transparency, etcetera, let’s just flush out the big going a little more so i think non-profit think of it because it’s impossible fund-raising right? I mean, it’s, possible revenue source. Yeah, donors could give gives to you and there have been enormously large gift in the press. Yeah, of bitcoin two non-profits so, yeah, i agree. Okay, so let’s dive into a little green deeper into bitcoin. Yeah, so i was wrong. So i was that was something controversial. I said that it doesn’t have intrinsic value. Well, i mean, i think it has doesn’t have intrinsic value. I mean, bitcoin itself that’s a big debate. I mean, people, some people argue absolutely has intrinsic value because it’s filling a gap in a way that nothing else can really fill the gaps. Some people argue it has absolutely no intrinsic value. It’s all just like, basically hyped value in market value. Like whatever the pr around and i think that’s, right? But that that’s arguably no different than many. Early stage, you know, cos right, like, when you think about equity in an early stage company doesn’t have value of tv, you know, so it’s not that different. So i think to me what i find interesting or kind of mildly amusing at times is like the idea. This is like this brand new distinction, right? We kind of have this model already. It’s called early stage equity grantwriting mean, like those might be paper and worth nothing. They might be worth a ton of money you don’t really know. And to be honest, like your kind of gambling when you buy a digital currency, you know, you should have written the article that i read well, of course you know, you should get them. I not that i should have found your articles. I didn’t know you when i was doing this. Well, i wasn’t in this case two years ago. I just entered the space two years ago, but my research is more recent durney written articles way have something coming out actually, next week on april nineteenth, we’re doing a launch of what we’re calling a blocked a decision making, took it about blockchain and really trying to make it very accessible to the layperson, not in terms of what is it? But is it valuable to you? Is that we’re gonna find that in the world economic forum. Sightly ok, ok, good. Look for that if you want to know more about this, okay. Back-up so let the bitcoin all right? Backing out of the controversy part of it people could give you get absolutely, yeah, just the way they used to get. Yes, you make some very good analogies up early stage equity interests. That would be a challenge for non-profits to deal with. Exactly. Okay, and now we’ve overcome that at some point, real property was hard to deal with, like getting real estate starts thinking the new newest iteration of that. But it’s really no different. Don’t be scared. Don’t be scared. You want to know how to receive it? Receiving bitcoin is actually not that hard. You got a coin bait. I mean, this is one example, but what the easiest example probably is you go to coin base, you get a receipt on lee wallet base. Coin base is a company that has what’s called bitcoin wallets. You get a rece ive on ly bitcoin wallet that lives in the ability to receive bitcoin, converted into fiat currency and move on with your day. You can’t buy bitcoin with that wallet, but it’s a pretty easy mechanism. We’re getting you and their other competitors as well. There’s a kind of ah a cottage industry, if you will, in this kind of thing, okay, you receive only while it will be sufficient. And then how will you convert that to its done that’s? All worker magically on the back end, right? You kind of pick your currency usually it’s usd. And then you just they do the conversion for you at the current rate and then you move it out. Now you’re still accepting whatever the current rate is, you might decide you want to hold it longer and want to play the market. It exactly. But it’s like it’s no different for foreign currency. But the cashing out of it is just another it’s. Just a different call. The defense called a wallet, which isn’t you know, i think a very accurate term actually ways we have one of those wallets that enables you to receive this particular kind of currency and then you just decide when you want to cash it out. You move on with your job. These doesn’t want to do he’s well known icons, wallets, you know, it helps. It helps those of us who were trying to get our way in. Well, well, i put my money in my wallet, right? So i’ll just get my bitcoin in my virtual wall. Exactly. Okay, what’s, the what’s, the one you you name, that we could go to base one base dot com and there are others are ok, but you can start there. And it’s. Very simple. Okay. That’s, how to receive bitcoin gift for your non-profit thank you, strickler. You’ve been doing this a while. You’ve been talking to a lot of deal fights. Clearly it’s my my fair parts of my job. Okay, excellent it’s. Time for a break. Pursuing the art and science of acquisition is one of their content papers acquiring new donors. Is it part of your summer planning, perhaps, or keeping your prospect pipeline full is on your mind so you keep revenue robust? How is revenue? If you’re thinking about acquisition? Get the paper. The art and science of acquisition it’s on the listener landing page. Tony dot m a slash pursuant radio now back to block chain and bitcoin one oh, one now let’s, go to blockchain technology. Okay, now that we understand that bitcoin is but one one channel it’s built on built on a blockchain technology. Okay, how would you describe blockchain technology? Yeah. So i like to use the example. Elect yousa thank you. Tell me, but it seems to worry working for so if you and i were teo, i would buy something from you. Whatever it was, then we might decide. Okay? There are two options when we could just we don’t trust each other. Let’s say we contains other cash, marie and i just can’t do it. Whatever dollar bill ten dollar bill you give me the whatever it is and i walk away and we both walk away very happy our transaction is completed. Another way that people do. This is we get our mobile devices and we decided we’re using paypal or venmo are square cash or whatever it is. And we engaged in a transaction and we both again walk away. Satisfied? That transaction is complete. There are five. Parties in the mobile example there’s you, me, your bank, my bank and intermediary, whether that’s, paypal or whatever it is and the reason that you and i are confident enough to walk away from the transaction feeling it’s completed is because we trust those three intervening parties. We trust that they’re goingto all suspect effectively and sufficiently debit my account and credit your account the right amount of money, and we don’t have to really pay attention to that, right? But you can imagine, and this is hypothetical in our case and sort of the western united states largely, but not everywhere. You can imagine a world in which i don’t have access to a bank account or you don’t or both of us don’t. There is no intermediary that’s going to be trusted any matter is easily hacked whatever is for whatever reason we have no trust in this system and we want to exchange something that’s analogous to cash bitcoin additional currency. Is that anil? It is basically the internet analog of my handing you cash there is no meaningful intermediate is no centralized intermediary that’s mediating that transaction for us we’re able to peer-to-peer exchange that value so that is the beauty, if you will, of digital currency, right? And what it provides the marketplace that doesn’t currently otherwise exist except for in paper. Ok, how does blockchain is what enables that happen? So what’s happening this magical middle? I’m not actually hand i’m not like brain sending you something, right? There’s something happening in here what’s happening in here is blockchain is being deployed essentially i mean it’s not technically accurate, but let’s for our sake. What is actually happening? Okay? Rather than me sending something to a central authority and kind of like a chain of central authorities were sending it to a distributed network. So we’re saying what our ways of creating trust? Well, one way creating trust is to trust an intermediary if you don’t have one other way, cretin trust is to make take it totally distributed. So imagine if between us there was a network of a thousand computers not connected to each other independent pseudonymous so no one knows how anyone else is right at the exact same time they’re creating simultaneous this is again not totally accurate, but likely to be a simultaneous record of our exchange, they’re indicating i opened up my digital wallet i released, you know, one bitcoin, which is money. And you gave you something very valuable in exchange and you receive it. Okay? And in orderto hack that transaction, you would have to convince thousand computers to change their record. That’s why they’re i was going to ask you, why are there a thousand computers? That’s? Why security? Security? So it means you can see it’s far more secure than a central database that could be easily hacked. Right? Like one source of truth can be hacked very easily. A thousand simon, identical sources of truth are very hard to have. So each of these computers houses the same information. We call it a ledger about our transaction. And this is why we call it distributed ledger technology. And we can do this because my voice keeps cracking like i’m fourteen because because the cost of storage is so dim minimus on the margin that we don’t worry about all this redundancy. I mean, we got a thousand computers with the same in-kind large network with the same data, the same ledger, but but that’s because storage is so cheap. It’s not so. Much storage is so cheap because it’s a method of achieving trust. Right? So if you if you either either you you trust something? Are you trust nothing. And if you trust nothing, then a thousand synonomous computers is about is going to get right. Exactly right. Nobody has an incentive to screw up our transaction record incorrectly. And if they do, if one computer in that thousand computers records a different version it’s competition we spotted almost immediately and there’s a check that happens. What happened? What’s going on there, you know, so it’s very, very hard to hack. It makes it quite secure. How about how about hacking it so that the one becomes the accurate transaction and the other nine hundred ninety nine convert to that that’s computational e-giving possible? Yeah, demographically impossible to do that. Okay, okay. Yeah. So that’s the way it works now latto brand not going to get a ring about it has given it was going to kill it. Ok, i don’t want to know what’s interesting about this, right? So this is the premise of the bitcoin blockchain and of what are called public blockchain but interestingly enough, which are getting are the human impulse, i think, is to say what i want to control something, if i want, if i want, if i don’t trust something, i want to control it, right? So you’re getting a lot of explosion of these permission block chains, which means that you control you know who all the computers are. Basically, are you on, lee? Allow computers that you have kind of vetted into the system. When you do that, it becomes more securely it’s gotta be it’s, kind of like counter involvement words, they don’t know. We don’t know which each other dahna that’s very good that’s, right? Okay, so what’s the oh, what i’ll ask it instead of trying to figure it out, what’s the value of this two non-profits yeah, i think there’s a lot of value to this. So one, i think, in the sort of remittance space in terms of programmatic work, there are a lot of places where, you know, charitable work is done it using remittances using kind of the last mile payments, like problems that have existed for a long time, that we’ve been unable to really have a great solution for there’s a huge problem osili is realized recently through a world bank project there’s a huge problem with charities, certainly in certain kinds of region syria, the kinds of places being unbanked like having no access to bank accounts. And in many of these regions, people are literally taking paper cash into these environments and using it to provide services right, hugely problematic, very unsafe, very risking dangerous activity. If you have a digital wallet it’s that much more secure, right? Like it’s, actually that much harder. Teo, steal that hack it. You can prove ownership using encryption, there’s a lot of other things about it that are better. In these situations and that’s sort of the extreme example is the example we’re seeing a lot of different application level there’s, other completely non currency related applications of blockchain, so one that i think is really critical is digital identity. So this is this comes up a lot in the refugee asylum situations you could imagine a family has to flee in the middle of the night. They can’t bring any of their papers with them there’s no proof of who they are, their citizenship, their credentials, whether medical license, whatever it is that medical records, nothing like that. If all of that we’re on a distributed ledger, it would be security’s, not a paper based system. So so when you think about the application layer where you’re moving away from paper and you’re storing something in a secure manner, but not in some sort of like a database of government, where the government could be corrupt and come in and kind of change things up and disavow it, but in a way that really is truly secure that you own the only entrance key too, like that is very powerful to think about, you know there are we. Know that in homeless encampment, united states leaving aside like this war tor in-kind of regions, even in united states, there’s no accurate record of the homeless population because people who are born homeless often don’t have records, right? And then if you die homeless, there’s no account about this son accurately, in a sense, is acknowledges it’s completely off with that population. Imagine if there were a digital ledger that you could create around that now policy on how you do that is very challenging because it’s not an easy problem to solve, but at least there isn’t a different option. Now for three zsystems exactly exactly for preserving it current once you once you are creating and has overcome the challenge of gathering data, there’s a place to preserve it and the persons data is not vulnerable. Exactly loss or hacking. Okay, okay. Um now one of the articles i read talked about the transparency on dh. The example was a donor giving to a program and tracking progress of that program and then tying her funding two milestones that disease through the blockchain technology through some user interface. I guess the fucking can you help people understand? Better than i just did. What i’m talking about is absolutely so i think that we call the supply chain integration and i get a flow is an example of a supply chain supply chain of cash, but their supply chains of all kinds of things, i think it’s easier to understand that if we think about a supply chain and we’ll take mining as an example, because this i think people really understand this, ok, so and one hundred percent with your analogies. Thank you. I’ll make sure we bring it back to the non-profit but you go ahead. Yeah, so when you think about mining and you think about sustainable practices, right, so people don’t want blood diamonds. For example, there is a international process established called kimberley process that evaluates whether or not i don’t recall the kimberley process so it evaluates whether or not a diamond is mind using fair labor, you know, no child labor and all the things that you actually would care about is a consumer of this diamond and using blockchain technology, those diamonds are actually etched. Can you confirm follow using a combination r f i d e a lot of things and block chain a diamond throughout the entire supply chain from the moment its mind and you can you can certify that the mine itself was done with correct worker conditions, and etcetera are fundamental. Whatever it is, you contract that all the way to the refinery, to the manufacturer, to the retailer to thee. Kayman right, so there is certainty that that specific mineral or metal was taken all the way through, and this applies to other kinds of minerals and metals as well. You could imagine something similar that would apply, teo, you know, cotton or coffee or whatever it is, right? Like you could actually certify that a particular bag of coffee beans was crude was was harvested on a plantation that would that met their labor practices and was organic. And, you know, whatever the things are you care about fair trade certified, you could track that of a supply chain, and you could therefore ensure and give meaning to some of these labels that we don’t actually have any proxy for ascertaining are actually true. Great. So this provides more accountability and transparency because you can track the same good throughout an entire system. Now the same thing is true of aid flows. So a dollar originates somewhere. It’s basically just a supply chain all the way through. So any diversion of that money can actually be tracked. It’s a really interesting question. If you do this in digital currency every time digital currencies exchange there is a record created by definition. It’s not like cass. We’re just kind of khun vanished. There’s no ability for to vanish. It’s. Impossible. Great. So if i give it to you and you give it tio some other intermediary and they suddenly diverted to some corrupt whatever it is that that currency can be tracked so you can create accountability system, you can show that it went to pay your staffer that it went teo, you know, a contract to build the well or whatever it is. You can actually show that. And you can report all that ledger back too. The donor exactly. How does the organization interact with block james with the right to say the blockchain? No, there was no. It depends on a blockchain blockchain. And normally just sabelo depends on how dramatically interesting. You okay, what’s the user interface. That thing with donor and really question sametz finally twenty minutes and i got one good question is, is it okay for the donor and the non-profit? How we interact with? Yeah, this’s one of the challenges right now and it’s one of the reasons there isn’t at this gigantic explosion in use cases, even though they’re theoretical use cases everyone agrees on. People are now in the wake up in the state got started on the stage where this is being developed. When you think about the early internet and everybody was kind of risky, prompted was typing things and whatever that was not accessible. Teo fingering people call this business was not it was not accessible to a lot of people, right? But once you had a graphical user interface that came into play, people could pipe in plain english. And you kind of had with me what you had. What you see is what you get. You have these interfaces that were just more intuitive. You know what? You were wearing a realist. I have george in jail, but i wouldn’t wait. I mean that’s that’s. Well, that’s, not jargon. Ok. Fantastic, i presume. Thanks. I don’t agree with you. I’m fearful that you have low expectations of my understanding. Now go. Okay, okay. All right, well, listen, non-profit lady radio listeners or at least at my level, most of all, most people going with us so that those were all huge innovations enabled the explosion and things like email in google and search engines than whatever, until you had that was very hard to imagine being there, steve jobs is times a thousand, right? Exactly, right? So give it a little time and we’re going to get there and before you know it, we’re not going to talk about blocked it anymore. It’s going to be kind of this thing of the past, right? No, one’s talking about consensus mechanisms are proof of work or bubble it not going to care about any of that we’re going to be like, oh, did you check out your whatever the company is it’s the new facebook, but now built on block chain that we all now can’t live without you. So we’re getting there. We’re getting there. Awesome. All right. You really think you have very good analogy is a very good way of explaining this. Thank you. And thank you. We still have a couple minutes left together. So what more do you want to say? Is there another level we can go to? Ise there a story you want to tell about a non-profit using this technology? What? You know, i got love, yeah, i will say a couple of things, i think that, you know, i would really encourage listeners and anyone, you know, to really think beyond the digital currency example, and so we gave some examples of identity and supply chain and others, you know, there’s, interesting work happening around impact and how charity’s khun demonstrate impact using blockchain and kind of tag metrics. Tio tio not necessary to cash, but to sort of the street planning that goes all kinds of different implications for this technology and really the kind of, like joke in the blockchain nerd of which i am one system is to say, like, when you really start thinking about what this can do, you have these, like, three a m wake ups where you think like, oh, my god, like, you could do that, i could do that, i could do that, and you have to kind of dialling back down and we’re not there yet, you know? So one example, i’m really what got me my three a m moment that got me really hyped about this technology was in criminal justice, something i’m very passionate about and thinking about chain of custody of evidence. So thinking about thie way that evidence gets lost things like rape kits or dna evidence or whatever it might be a chain of custody people exam, and i’m thinking more of in other countries were tortured or vanished, get disappeared, kidnapping or not, it is our most of our institutions are exactly so we’re doing a big project anticorruption work in south america, where we’re thinking about government accountability and transparency and how you can actually work around and mitigate corruption, which is i’m the president in many parts of the world, using this technology because of the ability to track and trace, which is really key. So i think that is where the big innovation is gonna happen. It’s already happening and will continue to happen in this space and the implications, i think, for non-profits are quite quite profound the ability to track and trace something or someone is very, very so. Any objects like you had said the diamond is physically etched. Yeah, i mean, it’s gotta be obviously a pretty small, actually. Dankmyer dahna it is. Okay, so but any physical things, physical evidence in a criminal in a criminal case. Oh, it’s, great kids. A bloody glove, as a random example. Okay, very good. Okay. Uh, out. Forever. Forever. Forever. We will never have treyz we won’t have lost evidence. You’ll know if if it is disappeared, we’ll know exactly at what stage is exactly at what stage disappear. There won’t be a guests there’s no ability to hide, right? And you can mark that that security with like, with a geo look, even geo tag it, you know exactly, literally. Exactly where that thing was that the last recorded exchange of it. Okay. So which is really profound when you think about that, we have about a minute left. What do you love about this work? Not not so much. Not so much of the technology. But what do you love about explaining it to people? I think you know, i think it really is. Ah, i don’t think it’s surprising. How intimidating it it it’s a very intimidating technology, in part because there’s so much media attention about it, the volatility, the currency and then bitcoin millionaires and all this kind of billionaires and all this stuff and and you know it, it’s a community that’s really fascinating. Someone just used bitcoin. I asked you to talk about someone just used going to fund every single every single request that was donorsearch shoes dot org’s every single one got funded overnight, a lot of money, and charles rich asked for it. He couldn’t believe that he got it. Well, it’s also crazy because this is like there’s so much money in this that there are people who are they want to press, like the people that really, really have the money security to hired security. Us. What has this like thug element to it in this history of, like illicit actors in nefarious activity, you know kind of things people mean arms were sold using bitcoin, that the fact people were traffic using bitcoin? That is a fact, all right. And the idea that we’ve moved away from that not saying that is it still happening? Because let’s be candid, it is still happening, right? But that’s not the case for which it was really designed, and most people in this space are not interested in that kind of activity when you think about the shift away in the movement opportunity it’s really exciting to get ordinary people call them, like, lay people aware of this at least at a base level, and to not be afraid of it that i find very rewarding, okay? And like, we no longer fear the internet and automobiles exactly where you wanna go both okay? All right. We got every motive. Transportation? All right, sheila warren. Thank you very much. Thank you for the pleasure. You helped enormously. I’m so glad. She’s, the head of blockchain and distributed ledger technology at the world economic forum once the article it’s coming up that we should look for, it’ll be april nineteenth and it’s called the decision making till can’t it’ll be on our website? Awesome on our twitter my interview with sheila is sponsored my pleasure by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with non-profit medio coverage of the non-profit technology conference twenty eighteen we need to take a break, wittner. Cps. You need your nine. Ninety done. Right. You need an audit. Start at wagner. Cps dot com. Look at their services for non-profits. Read a few testimonials. Then pick up the phone and talk to partner. Eat huge tomb. I know him. He’s. Been on the show. He’s. A good guy. You explain what you need. He’ll tell you if they can help you. No pressure, he’s. Not that way at all. Talk to him. Wagner. Cpas dot com is the place to start now. Time for tony’s. Take two. Summer is close, it’s. Time to make time for your time away, including offgrid time. I hope you can do this. You need it. We all need offgrid time. No phone, no email. You know offgrid my encouragement video. Is that tony martignetti dot com good link. Dot com. Listen, i’m a safe too. Looked our founder of good link at goodland. Dot com non-profits connect with businesses that advanced their missions. When i want the best connections i listen to non-profit radio like you are safe. Good link it’s a new marketplace where non-profits meat vendors providing products or services? No cost to you as non-profit it’s, your bridge, your connection to the products and services that you need i’m helping them get started see what you think. Check out good link dot com it’s l i n c now time for a lie hurts and be data driven. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc it’s a non-profit technology conference hosted by the non-profit technology network. We’re coming to you from new orleans convention center there. This interview is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits. And my guest is you. I hurt he’s, the vice president of information technology at united service organizations. Us. So you lie hurts. Welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to have you. Thanks for having me welcome. My your your subject is becoming a data driven organization. Why should we? Why should read to make better decisions to do our mission better, more efficiently. B a and teo, to be able to have more impact, you’re confident that this changing culture going to bring about all these good outcome? Yes, yes. If you are you okay? It will there be challenges to get there? Yes, there will be. Challenges to get there isn’t a transition necessary, absolutely, but i’m confident that if and when we navigate those those challenges, the getting there enables better decisions, so we’re able to do our mission more effectively and that’s really what it’s all about, okay, and this does not just apply in the information technology department knows is you know what? This is organization wide. Oh, absolutely matter of fact, i’m glad you asked that tony, because if it only applied to information technology department, we would never get there that’s not how it’s accomplished the my department is about enabling the tools and technology that air the underpinnings, but really getting there and ineffectiveness is on ly when the business used the lines of business, that of performing the mission are asking the questions that are doing the analysis, they have the context they know the right questions to ask on the story that needs to be told it is absolutely not by-laws malefactor tools just one other piece, that the tools are evolving to enable that the so that it doesn’t take a technical person like it did in the past. The tools are being designed so that anyone khun, step up, use um and ask the right questions to get the answers they need. Okay, are we able to talk about some of those fools later on? Sure. Ifyou’d like tio conversing with them. Okay, you know them. Okay, good. Well, i’m guessing if this is going to be a cultural change, the change is gonna come from the top. So ideally so, the way we’re approaching a tony is both a top down and bottoms up approach both simultaneously kind of come out it from two angles, and we think both are necessary. Neither one by itself would would get us all the way there. We are fortunate have a ceo is very technically driven that understands the has the vision of what it can and should do for the organization to be able to make data driven decisions. However, just mandating it isn’t isn’t going to get us all the way there because the ones that are going to make it work are the ones that are going to be working. The tools are maur bottoms up because they’re they’re day today they have the context, they they have the context for the fund-raising with a marketing or the program delivery there of our constituents, and they have a better sense of the business processes and what all the data means so they can ask those questions if they don’t buy-in and have the right inquisitive mind set dahna we won’t get the answers that we want, they want to know more about what they’re doing and what the outcomes are on. And, you know, what successful was not now, of course, you’re coming at it from the uso perspective, but hard now they’re our listeners air over twelve thousand people in small and midsize non-profits sure, so the lessons apply equally, right? You know, nowhere and what i’ve said so far. Did i talk about the mission of us? Owe every single non-profit has a mission to deliver some service or product, mostly a service, for the benefit of of their their benefactors, so really it’s about understanding what their mission is and and they can all equally equally gain from increasing their impact, it’s about increasing the impact based on the insights that you have on the data that you’ve collected or can aggregate nowhere and what i just said that i talk about. The uso mission every single non-profit and benefit from it. Okay, i want to make that explicit. I i know it’s true. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here. But i want metoo explicit for our for our listeners. All right, so ah, a lot of this is around empowerment also. Right? So we’re empowering staff to be asking the challenging questions that data can provide answers to. Yeah. Ok right. Are we empowering? Well, empowering is part of it. Yes. That’s a necessary but not sufficient. Okay, so we have to start. You know it has tohave empowerment. They also have to have access so access to the right data stores. And this means breaking down stone by breaking down stovepipes for silos breaking down paradigms of no, this is this is my thing. And then also learning the skill set and the mindset, skill set and mindset. So the skill set to to manipulate tools which, again are being designed to be always there friendly using some of this technology yourself and then and then the mindset is critical as well. Tony is having that inquisitive mind set to what’s what’s really happening here in my fund-raising in my marketing campaign in a program delivery what’s the underlying what’s the activity that’s happened. Who are the players that are impacting it? And what can i or do? I want to learn to make it better. So it’s that inquisitive mind set this is not we won’t get there by what some folks air more accustomed to is generate some report that says, what happened? That’s just reporting that’s the same, you know, something that you can construct and say point to this was thing that happened, this is about in court inquisitor enquiring mind set and interacting with it. So if i’m listening to this and i’m i’m motivated by what you’re saying, but i don’t yet have the top down or the bottom up, or i guess i’m in the bottom or maybe not right in the middle somewhere sure, or might be at the top. We have ceos who listen also how do i get the other end? Or if i’m in neither end, how do we get both ends to buy into this? Yeah, great question. Well, first, we think is start small and show a little benefit and you can do it relatively relatively easily, relatively. Affordably and, you know, for every non-profit every dollar we don’t spend is a dollar that goes to our our mission, and some of the tools are very affordable and show the way do a little pilot hyre we did a proof of concept, the uso first to say, hey, for very few dollars, this is a kind of insights we can generate and here’s iraq without. What do you think? Wow, this is really given tell the story of your your test because i think i think the example will help, okay, listeners understand, you know what? How do you bite off a little bit of this, like, a little a little bit of what? Where do we start? Yeah, absolutely. So we we had, uh we took data from two of our important or two of our sources that support somewhere big, most impactful business processes. One is financial, so that shows a roll up of our fund-raising how we’re doing on revenue, you know, fund-raising and the other is relatively new data set that that we just deployed a system last year for part of our digital transformation, which was collecting usage metrics of our customers, they check into our centers and way made a digital platform that collects the check in and some of that there some of their demographic snoopy ii, obviously and and we have now about six months of here’s how they and when and how they interact with us and what they think of us and what they like. And these are two data sorts one was just talking about the tools, but one was in the great plains data set which many organisations used, which we exported from report into a csp export, relatively simple stuff. And the other was in a sales force back and data set. And what we did is we used a pretty affordable tool for non-profits microsoft power b i it’s okay to talk about product. Certainly. Yes, i want you to. Yeah. Okay. Super yeah. Which is very affordable for a non-profit handup power b i microsoft power b i business business insight. Because this intelligence argast it’s ah it’s in the gardner magic water and for the last two years is one of the top in the b i space non-profit the cost is very affordable there’s a free version as well. And you can experiment the free version. So what we do is we got a little bit of help because if this does require some different mindset, you know, then then folks have been doing one thing for a long time, so we got a partner for a little bit of help to say, okay, help us bill, do some analysis and build some visualizations in a dashboard that shows what what’s happening in these areas, both from financial progress. Oh, and also for our customer usage, we did it in a month or two, just a few dollars, not much product dollars, and we built visualizations and showed it say, hairs here’s, how we’re being used right now, and it was very, very well received. The insights were kind of ah ha moments. So so what i recommend is start with some existing data stores and and sort of identify first what it is you think will be impactful and then showcasing take it around, say, hey, this is some insights. What do you think? And and if it doesn’t get enthusiasm either learned a lesson from it to say what’s more interesting or perk it, move on to something else. Okay. Okay. Test for value early. Yeah. All right. And in a small bit. Yeah. Small piece. Okay, awesome. Ah. All right. So then what? What? What’s, the next step in this you don’t change this culture. So let’s say we get some approval. Okay? This this is pretty stark and i can see some value. Um, otherwise the interview’s over. So we better remove this phone way. We’re not taking the park and move on to something else. Option forget move on. Yeah, what? Where do we go from here now? We with our test results. So where we’re going is an operational pilot and recalled an operation pilot, so because we’re adding a little more funding and setting the setting the goals of a little bit hyre but we’re also not in the same breath, not institutionalizing it yet. So we’re going to expand the number of data stories that we bring in on then here’s the other key, tony, is what we’re also going to do since the product and microsoft power b i again is the one we’re using. It is b is designed so for someone that’s in the line of business, the development department of marketing department, the program delivery, not the geeky tech person it’s not designed for that person is designed so that those that a former that i mentioned can learn how to use it. So we’re rolling out training at the same time, we’re going to take him through here’s how to use the tool and here’s the art of the possible, and let them loose and let them loose on the data, and also let them see, you know, some of the additional products, visualizations and, more importantly, the insight that comes out. We’ll let that run for a while. Say, you know, show us how it’s changed your ability to perform your mission. Okay? Yeah. And where are you in this process? So we finished the proof of concept on we go and let’s see january, late january or february on we look at it for a little bit and were actually just going to start up our operational pilot, which will be a six week effort with some some assistance. We’re gonna start that up in several weeks. So by this summer for april thirtieth. So okay, here a couple weeks away from taking the next step. Will spend about six weeks building it up, and then we’ll look at it for a bit. How do you figure out what what the data is? That is most important for the organization? Well, we’re starting with, you know, the the kp eyes that are most dahna most impactful and most important for insight and that’s a, uh, you know, that’s a that’s, quite frankly, a lift and shift of current reporting. Two more digitised on dh that’s sort of a stepping stone, because these with kp eyes that dahna that air that leadership needs teo, understand where we’re going and where we are, but again that’s ah that’s a stepping stone. So it’s also going to relieve some pain? Because, quite frankly, you know, the other way of doing the reporting takes a lot of time, and a lot of resource is, which is time and resource is to be better well spent by those down the chain of command that have to do all that every organization has that, but instead of we’re goingto automate that enhance it, enhance it, and let me touch another key point because what we can do that can’t be done as effectively as connect the dots across data silos for combined visualizations that tell amore comprehensive story, the whole organization, right, especially the sea level, is interested in that sea level. And we think every yes, but not just to sea level and again that’s a stepping stone, because what comes next and the rial golden ring is ah, and well, we will have accomplished a lot by that intermediate step, which is much more efficient, comprehensive reporting and visualization. But the real golden ring and the next step it is doing predictive analytics and being able, teo asked questions of the data by interacting with him. So there’s a k p i reporting this is the important stuff we need no for how the business is going that’s again, the next step and once it’s all in place and folks get comfortable with it, say, well, i could really ask some questions. You know what i haven’t thought about? Fill in the blank. You know how our current trend is from a predictive analytics perspective, our fund-raising is happening over time or what is the impact if we change these variables? You khun, you could do all of that once. You’re in the platform and uncomfortable. Okay? Got to take a break. Tell us i have a new tell us. Moughniyah lll. Lead quote. Lee elementary school foundation is receiving a monthly donation from tello’s for the credit card processing of a company one of our parents owns is likely the easiest donation source we have ever secured. End quote. A parent’s company. That’s. Brilliant local companies taking credit cards. Do you need more revenue? Get started at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us now back to be data driven with eli hurts. Let’s talk about the challenges of doing this. You brought him up earlier. I want to come back to it. Sure. Uh, what what? What should we expect? Yeah, well, there can be some and actually just came from aa good session, where we had this same discussion and with a group full of non-profits and it was it was really it was it was a really wonderful conversation. It became a conversation and of the same topic. And one of the challenges is that one of the non-profits brought up is hey, what if you know your shot in the light on something? That’s? That is kind of a hard story that, you know, has projects bad news where you have been visualized way have start asking questions. We may not always like the answer. You might not like the answer, and what we would suggest is that we shift the focus away from the who, which is can be a tendency if you see something responsible who’s responsible who hasn’t been doing their job who’s been falling short and and shift it more towards the what and what’s the impact on the on the mission than everybody circles around. You know, the conversation about how do we improve the mission based on what we learned, not who’s not been doing their job effective. So it’s changing the conversation based on the insights? Okay, so that that’s one is that the kind of fear three other has changed management? You know, i’ve been doing it this way for a long time, and this is what i was hired to do. So, like many classic change management problems or channel opportunities, it’s about education that can be circumvented with education and finding a few folks that were shown successes with him by doing it a different way with a different tool, shining the light on them and say, hey, this is an early adopter. Look what they were able to dio you could do something similar in your position will help you do that. You mean drawing on the early testing that you did well early? Six it continuing success is its a continual process. Let me give you a specific example. We did the proof of concept way showed the platform the possible everybody, not their head sea level, sweet like that. Others looked at it. Xero but can i do this to answer a question i need to do? And we identified one of those one of those this i really need to tell this toe understand this and tell this story better one just as i’m sure you know, when i tell say, tell the story, it’s obviously not about creating fiction, but it’s about painting the picture what’s going on, and so we identified that person who’s, not technologically savvy didn’t need to be we didn’t create it, so he needed to be that’s the point, and we’re helping him build something so that he can answer that question and expose. That so we could make better decisions. So we built on that success. This is, before we build out the operational pilot way found somebody else who has came to us because they heard about the success, the operational pilot or sort of proof of concept said, hey, i need another answer here. So, you know, we incrementally show successes, leverage some of these early adopters and their successes in trying to bring some skeptics along. Exactly okay, yeah, now the rial on dh so the following we haven’t accomplished yet, tony, i’ll just say that for what i’m about to say, but a study of change management and you’ve probably heard many of the folks you interview talk about it from and one of the best yeah, disciplines. I’ve been through his pro side change management certification encourage it for any non-profit listener is the best three days i’ve ever spent. Tell me again what it is a pro side p r o s c i change management three day certification class and it covers the breath of technology is what one piece of it it’s really about change management? Okay, but if you really but to go get to the next level. So some of things i’ve talked about or some sort of the classic change management techniques what’s, really a strong accelerator is to find a skeptic allowed skeptic on someone who’s yeah, so till happen, you know, if you’re not watching the video, you maybe i can tell i’m laughing. All right? So you probably last on somebody there? Well, i work for myself, but i have in the end, everybody got clients that whatever somebody who’s allowed skeptic, we’ll leave it at that. All right? Yeah, yeah. So every organization sufficient? Yeah. On dh who’s sort of maybe established will say yeah, so they have some credibility in the organization and they’re also established with the way they were used to doing things. If you make that person and advocate, they will amplify the successes to the same degree that they amplified their skepticism. Now that’s the breast, that’s, the it’s dueled brass ring. Yeah, back to your mary-jo exactly, but it’s it’s a it’s a huge accelerate an amplifier so it can be done. But instead of avoiding that skeptic, use um, empathic techniques understand why they’re they’re skeptical. Remember? Well, trying to embrace them train, embrace, understand what they need and then help them. And if they flip and you got maybe a fifty fifty chance i’ll be really but if and when they flip and then the rest the organization, by the way, everybody, when i said that they know who the organization skeptic is, right? Everybody knows so when the organisation sees a skeptic that’s a believer katie bar the doors everybody’s in, so okay. Okay, way exhausted the challenges. Well, one other, you know, is just learning the learning a new approach. It’s a different mindset. So, you know, that’s more, much more the emotional side of the psychological side of change in management. Well, you know, those pieces just address, but there’s also some some, you know, functional skills. Oh, the skills. Yes, you get skillsets the mindset skillsets so i spoke to a willingness to take on new skill and the ability. So it’s it’s a different way of operating it’s about, you know, the science behind data science is about exploring and experimenting and asking questions and telling a story. Eso again, a lot of us, you know, and many parts organizations say, hey, bill, be a report that shows nothing fund-raising how much you know how many impressions were on the website or whatever? How many times are programmers using a report? You know, it’s more of a diagnostic or reporting this is what happened? And they say, here’s, what happened? But what this cannon and get to with a different skill set is ask some questions on dh, interact with it, tio, connect the dots, teo answer answer, tell the story of what’s really going on versus saying what? What happened? Okay, eli, i want to talk about some of the tools that way because we just have a couple minutes left, okay? Uh, tools that can help with this with this process, yeah, yeah. So one i wrote, we use and and we’re having very good success with it is microsoft power b i mentioned and that’s the primary one now the other is, you know, the benefit of it is the tool is it can integrate and interact with the data wherever it is, so you don’t have to create something new, leave it in place and integrated. There are a few, you know, competitors in the place in the in the space. That’s the one we’re getting no success, we’ve put a lot of our operational data and a sales force back end, which we built up for several reasons and integrating it in on dh and again, others and data in place. So those those are some of the primary ones the sales force haven’t add on for this kind of data introspection, they do, they do they call it einstein analytics, einstein yeah, and sales force just recently, we’re recording this in april of twenty eighteen they just recently perp made a purchase of another integration product called mulesoft so they’re going to integrate that product so that in their analytics engine they can pull in other data sources, which is really important fan letters because a lot of systems have been built up as here’s, my tool or data set based on what’s happening in this piece of the process and really to tell the comprehensive picture is about connecting the dots so you won’t be able to pull in from several sources. So salesforce’s getting has that capability and einstein analytics with mulesoft added tio okay, we have just about a minute or so left and i want to ask you what is it? You know, vice president of information technology. Yeah, yeah. What is it you love about the work you do? Oh, great question. Thanks for asking. People don’t think about it. It is a lovable, lovable office toe working, let alone lead. Yeah there’s a little maytag repairman have the successive nobody’s angry, right? Yeah, when i really like about is we’re rolling out capabilities that are that are making a everybody’s every employee’s job better, more effective cut across the hall organise a cross organization and we feel that we can make them more efficient by either the systems where the insights they get that gives lifts to the entire organization. We’re also changing the way we’re we’re interact with our constituents or service members were rolled out a mobile app. Recently go the apple or google play and download the usl app it’s really gratifying to know that weekend engage with our customers in away reach him where they are dahna but really it all rolls back to we can make the mission more effective, and if we can save a dollar while we’re doing it and then as a non-profit we’re serving. Our service members are constituents more effectively and that’s. Gratifying. Are you a vet? I am. Yeah, i am too. Well, thank you for your support. Thank you. You thank me. First what service? I was in the navy about you turning air force air force. Okay. We so we should have a little rivalry going on here. Very friendly, though. Of course. Eli hurts. He’s, the vice president of information technology for united service organizations uso this interview is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you very much. Thank you. To you know pleasure. Thanks. Thanks. And this is twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. Thank you so much for being with us next week. Change agents on your board and more from the non-profit technology conference. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Durney dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Show social media is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein. We will be next week for non-profit radio. 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Nonprofit Radio for April 6, 2018: A Conversation With Adam Braun

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Adam Braun: A Conversation With Adam Braun

ADAM BRAUN PENCILS OF PROMISE ©ELISABETH CAREN

He founded Pencils of Promise with $25 and in 2014 they had 200 schools globally. Today they have over 450. His book is “The Promise of a Pencil.” Adam was a Forbes “30 Under 30” and one of Wired Magazine’s “50 People Who Are Changing the World.” Today he’s CEO of MissionU. We talked about his journey founding and growing Pencils of Promise, and the mantras that guided him. (Originally aired March 21, 2014.)

 

 

 

 

 


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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of telesis if i saw that you missed today’s show a conversation with adam braun he founded pencils of promise with twenty five dollars, and in twenty fourteen, they had two hundred schools globally. Today they have over four hundred fifty. His book is the promise of a pencil. Adam was a forbes thirty under thirty and one of wired magazine’s fifty people who are changing the world today. He’s, ceo of mission you back then we talked about his journey, founding and growing pencils of promise and the montrose that guided him that originally aired march twenty first twenty fourteen i’m tony stick to non-profit radio at ntc, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant to radio by wagner. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dot, m a slash tony tell us here is my conversation with adam braun rather than read his bio, which i would ordinarily do. I’m going to read his auto bio, i have a book coming out in march, the promise of a pencil that i think would really interest you and your readers. I know what he meant. That’s okay, i found it pencils of promise five years ago with twenty five dollars, and we’re rapidly approaching our two hundredth school globally, so i decided to write something for non-profit professionals and millennials with the most important lessons i’ve learned in creating a global movement. Anyway, i’d love to be a guest on your podcast to share lessons and insights around the book that is around the time the book is being released march eighteenth. If you’re interested in chatting further, please shoot me an email. Adam run let’s channel further that’s absolutely glad you sent that email. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure. Pleasure. Um, congratulations on the book. A couple of days old. Yeah. Yeah. I’m really excited about it. Outstanding. You call yourself? I think so. It’s somewhere. Or maybe was in one of your e mails? I’m not sure an impossible list. What’s what’s going on with that? Yeah, actually, i shared that on a couple of speeches, but okay, maybe i saw it on a video then. Yeah, i find that, you know, different people view themselves of different associations. You know, i’m a pragmatist. I’m a realist. And i just realized that the things that excite me, the things that i believe in and pursue, they tend to be that which others demon possible and so just kind of came off the cuff. It’ll talk, and it seems like it’s resident with a lot of people. And so i aptly i will say that i’m a nim possible ist right that’s, quite admirable school on dh. You also say, well, in the book that where you start in life doesn’t dictate where you finish. You’ve had you’ve had quite a journey, and we have an hour to talk about it and pencils of promise, but i like that a lot where you start doesn’t dictate where you finish. Yeah, that’s when the foundational beliefs, i would say that i was raised with on one of the things that dictates a lot of the work that i pursue now, it’s, just this core idea that where you start in life should not dictate where you finish and that where you’re born, i shouldn’t have a bearing on the opportunities and the guess path that you take going forward, and the book is divided into thirty mantra is correct, which are also very cool. I like those let’s, so we’re going to talk about a couple, you know? And then we’ll work our way. Tio, through your journey and talk some good amount. Ah, maybe second half about pencils of promise. Perfect. Um, leave your leave. Your comfort zone is a mantra and you have a little you have a story for each each mantra and it’s a good thing you came up with a nice even number thirteen way had twenty seven. What would the editor of with the publisher have taken you with? Only twenty seven or truthfully, i was trying to stick the twenty five, starting with twenty five bucks. I figured the twenty five most important lessons that i had learned. Good, but truthfully, they they just kept on kind of pouring out, the more that i would write. And so i ended up china, find an even number and went with thirty. Okay. Yeah. Did you have to do? It was with a marginal five difficulty from twenty five to thirty. I was stuck on kind of twenty eight. Twenty nine e take you twenty nine way can’t work with twenty nine exactly one hundred one if you get to one hundred one that’s a very popular number, but exactly all right. So one of them is leave your comfort zone. There’s there’s. A good story around that. Yeah. So, you know, when i was growing up, i guess to even rewind and start things from the very beginning. I was born in new york city, but i grew up in the suburbs. I grew up in connecticut and essentially the town that i was raised in, which was granted connecticut. My parents picked because it had the best public education system. They just kind of mapped out their most important criteria when they wanted to raise children. Both of them came from total poverty. My dad was an immigrant like that in this country when he was three on a boat. His family post holocaust survivors escaping the hungarian revolution. My grandmother worked in a sweatshop for her first ten years. New york after surviving just siri’s of it’s, a horrific atrash cities through her childhood, including being in the concentration camps for about a year and a half, and losing our whole family. And so what they really valued. I think his parents was opportunity attained through education, and so they picked greenwich that’s, where we moved when i was probably about four, and i was just one of those kids who, because of the two things that were valued in my household, being family and education, i poured myself into the books, and i also played a ton of sports basketball being the main one, and so i ended up moving through high school and just becoming really, really interested in working in finance, actually, because so many people in greenwich, our finance professionals and, you know, you look around and you see who’s, the person with the nice car in the big house and we’re going, we’re gonna have a chance talked about bain capital where you were and, you know, you’ve got some good stories from there. Yeah, yeah, eso so i’d actually open up any trade account when i was thirteen, because you could think that and then started working at my first hedge fund that i started working out. And, you know, i wasn’t doing probably very high quality work, but i still on opportunity that they gave me to be inside of a head shine when i was about sixteen. And so then by the time i was nineteen, i was in the summers working at a fund of funds. But the important thing for this mantra, this get out of your comfort zone idea is that i went from, you know, fairfield county. I went to brown university for college, so state in new england and pictured myself going into this financial profession, moving to new york city. And when i was twenty, as a sophomore in college, i ended up seeing a film called baraka that was shot in twenty four different countries, just beautiful, beautiful cinematography. But most importantly, it showed these indigenous cultures and these beautiful geographic wonders all around the world. And i just thought, if these things are existing somewhere, i need to see them with my own eyes. I need to absorb them myself. And i just got this this mantra, this kind of phrase in my head get out of your comfort zone and this kind of restless voice picked up in may and said, you know, until you leave the comforts of what you know, you’re really not going to discover who you are, and so it led me tio go on semester at sea, which was the first i would say, a significant experience outside of the bounds of what i was familiar with, and that just changed my whole life, all right? And we’re going to we’re going to continue further, but semesters si has a great story. Uh, where you have quite a quite a harrowing experience on the ss you assassin explorer as explorer. So, you know, one thing i will just say as i am, could not be a bigger advocate of semester at sea. It was the best and most important thing i’ve ever done in my life. Outside of getting engaged, i would say, okay, fiance, right, right. Good. And so i went on a semester at sea in spring two thousand five. We left from vancouver headed towards korea, and the expectation was that i would get to see ten different countries and you have forty six days. To travel through each country completely independently as backpacker, do whatever you want and just make it back to the ship by whatever. Tuesday at five p, m and you’re studying about each of these cultures before you get there. So it’s just an incredibly enriching experience and my ship eyes. One of the kind of more famous voyage is over the last fifty years of semester at sea. Usually if you’re famous on sametz see it’s because something went wrong, but my my voyage was struck by a sixty foot rogue wave about eight hundred miles from land while crossing the north pacific in winter, and the way that hit us as we’re going from vancouver to south korea shattered the glass in the area that house the navigational equipment. So we lost all power to our engines, and we were in this kind of mega storm being tossed around by forty five foot swells on each side. And so we had basically this, this kind of panicked announcement that was made that said, get to the fifth for hyre helped women, children up the stairs and get to your muster stations, you know, keep on your life jackets. And your muster stations there were you evacuate a ship from so that type of call is, is that those of us who’ve been on a cruise? You visit your muster station once exact beginning of the cruise, right? And then you never go back and that’s the assumption for for all cruises and all all sea voyages. Exactly. So we had, you know, we’re college kids, and so we’re messing around, playing with the little lights on life jackets and, you know, you’re looking around thinking, is there someone that i can probably maybe china floor with, like, you know, you’re nervous kid? And so so we don’t pay much attention to the whole muster station exercise, and then suddenly you get this announcement. That’s what you mean muster station that’s where we evacuate from and look outside, we can’t evacuate, and so, um, i had what i would call a certain death experience. I really genuinely believed that i was goingto perish in the next few hours. And when you go through something like that, a taste in my case too, things happen. The first was you asked the question of why am i here in the first? Place if i’m about to perish like, what is the reason for my existence? And then the second is when i’m gone, what will i have left behind? And because of that, i just became i would say pretty obsessed with this. These two questions one what is my sense of purpose? And then too, what are the footprints that i can leave behind amassing significant personal wealth, getting a big house suddenly that became pretty deep prioritise this is all going through your mind as you’re at the muster station way never even actually made it up there. This happened in my room. Oh, this is all in your room. Things are being tossed around, right and furniture’s falling. This was but yeah, it was it was it was pretty wild. Alright, we went upstairs and then waited upstairs for several hours. All right, we’re going. We’re going to go out to a break right on middle of this great story deliberately because there’s a good story about a tattoo coming up and obviously he survived and we’ll continue the journey from there. Hang in there, it’s. Time for a break pursuant. The current paper is demystifying the donor. Journey two weeks ago, i talked about this with taylor shanklin, i know you remember that from pursuant, so you don’t need the paper. But how about a friend? Someone who can use help with donor stewardship help keeping their donors so they don’t have to replace them year after year, which, you know is expensive and a waste of time, you know, because you listen, get somebody who doesn’t you got somebody in mind if you don’t you’re not thinking hard enough. Think again. Get it, get it. Okay, you got somebody? Send them to the paper at tony dahna slash pursuant radio and if they want more, send him to the march twenty third show. Demystifying the donor journey. Tony dahna slash pursuing radio now back to adam braun. Lost at sea welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. All right, adam braun, you’re you’re in your room. Things are being tossed around. You’re you’re having your having cereal, you’re questioning your existence in pretty serious ways, right? S o i thought, what a cliffhanger believe latto yeah, eyes is high adventure. Yeah. Non-profit radio. Yeah. No, it is. I mean, the just to give away is that i did survive. I’m still here, so yeah, i mean, the part about the tattoo is i got a tattoo when i was yes, eighteen, which is pretty crazy to think about, but i got a tattoo it’s the mirror image of two words and those two words, i believe. And so there were image of, i believe, yeah, yeah, so it’s a name? I mean, two words in hebrew and ah, they ii see it correctly in the mirror was meant as a very kind of personal thing. Onda kind of, i guess, just reminder that whatever’s in front of you, whatever you think you can’t kind of conquer if you have that self belief that it can be made real. And so, you know, i’m sitting the rumors going around about my tattoo, you know, right now live well, i’m glad you took your outer sweater off. Put your shirt up picture that i can it sze literally that crystal and i wouldn’t really can’t picture. All right, i’ll get pictures of you, but not i i will point to where it is on my body. Okay, on dh so it’s it’s a little it’s over my heart, and so i basically, you know, kind of said my prayers ask the big questions and this this kind of knowledge, this calmness, this stillness came over me and suddenly just kind of, i guess knew that it wasn’t my time, ondas soon as i knew that it wasn’t my time that it wasn’t my kind of data. Parrish i recognized right that’s for a reason. There’s there must be a reason that i’m here in the first place, and now i kind of value the sense that whatever comes next is probably gonna have a much more depth to it and that’s after we survived, when the next thing that happened is we fortunately, we’re able to travel through the developing world for the very first time in my life. I’ve never been exposed, teo poverty at that level to just indigenous cultures all around the world. It’s just not part of what we did when when we were kids growing up on dh so fortunately ship doesn’t go down there’s mass hysteria for about four or five hours, but semester it’s, he just did a miraculous job of weathering some obviously tough conditions. And then from the administration actually making sure that our semester could continue because most other probably woulda latto just get cancelled or something. And so we start traveling through these different countries, and i had a habit of asking one child per country, what do you want most in the world? And i figured i would get this this kind of material answer of what they want, and i haven’t write it down on a piece of paper, and then i could make a collage in my dorm room back-up college of, like, the different kind of cool things that kids were interested in buying around the world and that’s when i got to india, which is where i wanted to see most before i left on the trip and when i was there, it’s just it’s very devastating to see the levels of poverty that you witnessed there because oftentimes there’s a suffering associated with it, like there’s, just pain on people’s faces and you feel pretty helpless you feel like you can’t really do anything, especially as a twenty one year old at the time. And so i asked this one boy who was begging on the streets in northern india. He was like my one kid that i decided i was just so interested. Like, what would he want? You know, would it be a house would be a car? Would it be a boat? And i said, if you have anything the world, what would you want? And his answer was a pencil, and it just blew me away. And so i kind of started to ask some more questions, and i realised he had never been to school before and that anything that he was given was taken away from him money kind of candy, etcetera. But i guess in his mind, you know, he saw there boys coming back from school with pens and pencils, writing on piece of paper and that the one thing that he wanted to pursue was unlocking his own creativity, opportunity, curiosity, imagination and that access to education would do that. And so i gave my pencil. He lit up, and i just started passing out pens and pencils everywhere that our travel after that because it opened up conversations often times with with young people about their hopes and dreams, and if not, i would give it. To a mother in a market so i could ask her about what she wanted for a child, and it just always came back to quality education. And so from that point forward, i just became obsessed with creating, you know, world there are at least helping to create a world in which every single child has access to quality education and r and you site in the book the our global education crisis. Yeah, yeah, right now, there’s fifty seven million children without any access. Teo basic education what’s justus bad, because that really focuses on the access issue, but i’m really happy to see that a lot of the global leaders on education are focusing on second element, which is quality learning on dh. So you have two hundred fifty million children who are in classrooms but cannot read or write their own name by the end of fourth or fifth grade. And so it’s more than just getting kids in rooms it’s, it’s actually making sure they have quality teachers and that learning outcomes are being valued as well. Part of one of the monsters that you you touched on in the story of the ss explorer is andi travels that came after? It is that tourists see and travelers seek yeah, you’re clearly a seeker. Yeah, that that was one of my firm for probably two or three years. That was my main mantra that i just wrote on any piece of paper that i could as a reminder to myself. Because when you, when you really start traveling, you take a lot of pride in being a traveller. And you almost disassociate with tourism. Yeah, it’s, sort of. Well, the tourists will just sort of rattle off the country’s, right? Oh, i’ve been there. I’ve been there. I’ve been there, right? Right. I mean, tourists and my mind are are interested in seeing and and it’s not to discount tourism, because now i have vacations where i just want to be a tourist sometimes. But that’s when you’re kind of interested in seeing what i would say the quote country has to offer, like the museums, the moss, the churches, the center guys the most, you know, kind of beautiful sights when i think about being a travel that’s much more about what the people have to offer and so that’s about, you know, getting into individuals, homes, you know, eating the local food with local people, seeing what actual you know, the regional customs are and how people lived, not how they present their historic artifacts to those that are interested in the tourist elements of that culture. And so, you know, it’s, not the discount either one of them, but i find and certainly when i was in my early twenties and i was traveling country after country after country for extended periods of time, i was interested in seeking and almost finding answer is not just, you know, seeing beautiful sights, you were pretty comfortable at another place where you ended up not doing internship, but working, obeying you had had an internship there first, right? You know, so so i don’t i held different internships in a financial industry so again, since i was kind of sixteen on words most summers, i would work either hedge fund’s fund of funds or institutional banks and then came back after some of my travels and went through interviews with investment banks and consulting firms in private equity, and i landed up ended up at bain and company, the consulting firm, which eighty percent of people had been capital to private equity firm are form being consultants. So in my mind, i was going to bane and company to then work at bain capital, and you were you were comfortable there hyre from outward appearances, but but there was, ah, discomfort internally. Yeah, very much so. And i know that i speak about this in the book and again, i’ll say i mean, i’m a z big of a proponent of banning companies possible. I had such an incredible experience there. And truthfully, there’s no way that pencil a promise would have become what it became without my my training and experience and the goodwill of the people at bane that i worked with. But, you know, coming out of school, i was so passionate about this one issue, but time and time again, when i would share with people i want to go build a school, and i wanna go help kids in this one country, whatever that country might be that i was passionate about at the time they’d say to me if they knew me. Well, well, this sounds great, but you’ve always had a business background. You speak the language. Of business, why don’t you try and get some more formal business training? And then maybe even a mass some personal wealth and with that wealth start something and with your network and resource is etcetera build something based off of your kind of business career and kind of reluctantly took their advice and saw it for what it was and it was pretty sound. And so i went to work in vain, but with the whole time i was there, i viewed it is a form of paid business school, and i think that’s really important for any young person in any job is to not go into the job thinking all right, what’s my salary and, you know, prioritized the prestige of my business car, but it’s really, about how much can you learn? Because because that’s what’s, valuable in your first two or three jobs is kind of creating the foundation for your like operating system in the business world going forward. And so i went to maine and, you know, it was working on these great fortune five hundred or forty one thousand companies learning a ton, but i just what couldn’t get passionate about the clients that we worked on and it’s just the industries i wasn’t intrigued by. And so i was at the time, living in this really beautiful apartment. And in new york city. Yeah. I mean, i had this great apartment on union square. Onda had, you know, access to really fun parties and a bunch of my friends from high school and college and different travels were used to go to republic. The noodle shop? Yeah. It’s. Really good. I like it noisy, but yeah, they have very, very good, pat. Yeah. And so from outward appearances, i was working at a very prestigious firm, eyes twenty three going on twenty four on dh. So i was making good money. I had business opportunities that were absurd for somebody of my age. I mean, back then, this is kind of two thousand seven, so it was just before a lot of the crash happened. So we were getting calls from major private equity and hedge funds that were offering us two hundred fifty thousand dollars until yvaine. And i’m you know, like twenty forgetting offered two hundred fifty grand toe leave my job. That’s already a good job on dso. From all outward appearances, somebody who said like, wow, this is a guy that’s really got it made, but internally i was living a life that was one of you would say, exclusively self interest on dh that’s just because i was, i don’t know just a young kind of single guy in new york with a good job and obsessed with getting into a party or how much money i could make our, you know, just something about myself, and i kind of realized one day that i wasn’t living the type of life that i had aspired to live, and when i thought back to that day on semester it see where i recognized both purpose and the value of legacy i wasn’t pursuing either, and i needed to find a way to get back to that. And the single most powerful way that i could do that was by focusing on honoring or service to another person. What do you think brought you to this evolving introspection had what? Is there a trigger or just it’s? Looks like it’s snowing inside or what is it that brings you to think, i think it’s two things and again i would advocate for anyone else that they pay attention to both of of any age, by the way o for sure doesn’t only latto millennials, for sure. I mean, i’m now thirty, and i paint china pay attention of both as often as i can. The first is the restless voice that keeps you up at night on dh that’s, one of my montrose that i’ve used for years is just embrace the late sleepless nights like the things that keep you up at night actually don’t try and turn those off every so often just try and dive into them and see what it is that’s gnawing at you and pulling you, and it says that tattooed on, you know what? Maybe one? Okay, everyone day still very meaningful to you not to minimize it, right? Right? And then the second thing is writing so written in usually like, i’ll buy a really nice kind of leather bound journal, because i find that if you have a journal that you really love, it’ll lead you to write in it mohr and write better content rather than just kind of buying like a John cheap $:10 barrel bound that’s. Been my you know, my dreams, aaron spiral bound, you know, because i could rip them out when they don’t come true. It’s it’s and then i just buy a new binder after i’ve exhaust one hundred fifty sheets one hundred fifty dreams gone now just got two pieces of cardboard and a wire holding them together, right? I just throw the whole thing away and start again so so yours or i’m gonna get you one of the but, like, fifty dollars leather valente’s gonna drive, but i’m telling you, once you have a nice day journal, you almost feel like i this thing is going to be around for a while and made my crane kids will read this one day, so i have to write realists kind of essential truths that will carry forward. And so so every so often i try and write, and when i write, i just look at the words on the page and it’s like, why am i not following this? And so that those are the two things that helped me pull pull things out that, i guess lead to the introspection that you’re describing? Um so despite thea, i don’t know either encouragement to wait or discouragement. Tio start immediately from mentors and family, too. You know this advice? That seems sound, but it was still troubling to you. You started with you started pencils of promise with twenty five dollars. Yeah, s so what ended up happening was that bane has something that they called their ex turned ship opportunity and it’s usually in your third year where you can go work for anyone else for six months and come back and it’s really nice way for to get industry experience for them. Teo also keep you within the company while giving you the opportunity to, you know, test your your foot in the waters of one of the industry’s you might be interested in. And so most people leave their work at one of the main portfolio companies or they’ll work at in the financial sector, hedge funds or private equity. Some of these places that are calling you you’re like, hey, i can try it out for six months being doesn’t pay you the company does and so it’s a really incredible thing that they do. And so i just started thinking about all right, what can i do. What can i do? I have six months. And then i got this idea in my head. I was like, why don’t i just tap back into my passion around education in the developing world and work for someone that i’ve been, you know, volunteering for for years i’ll go out to cambodia for this one organization that cambodian children’s fund and volunteer with their founder, who was a real hero of mine. And then i just want what’s that person’s name. Ccf. Yeah. So the ccf, his name is scott neeson. Ok, shot. I mean, you mentioned your your fiance? Not by name. What’s your fiance’s name? Tequila. Okay. Won’t shut her out too. Yeah. Okay. All right. So scott was very meaningful. Well, he was another one of those people. That just that was a really changed my life. And so i suddenly got the itch to do something entrepreneurial. Andi had done little entrepreneurial things throughout my life, but i realised maybe i can start a new organization. And rather than volunteering with scott for six months, i could actually find a way to build one school. Do it on that. You know this six? Month extension. And then, over the next twenty years of my career, i could have this organization that built the school a year, you know, that was kind of the ambition. And so i went to the bank, had this kind of big epiphany night, and i realized the name pencils of promise could really kind of capture the spirit of things. And so i went to the bank and in my hometown, and i said, what does it take to open up a bank account? I want to start an organization called pencil promise. I wanna build one school and ideally dedicated to my grandmother and the woman on it was debbie said, well, i like the name i said, metoo thank you. And she said, well, you need at least twenty five dollars, to open up a bank account, a bank of america i said, okay, that’s, a good sign. I’m turning twenty five this month, so i’ll give you twenty five bucks on a chance for, you know, put in twenty five bucks and tow this new account and literally bootstrapped it from there to now the, you know, millions of dollars that we raise annually on. Dedicated to your grandmother worked in a sweatshop, you’d said, yeah, yeah, i mean, i really thought about how could i, you know, fulfilled this sense of purpose, not only for myself but for somebody else and, you know, eventually, you know, now we have schools dedicated to each of my grandmother’s, my grandfather’s, my parents, there’s one as well, my brother’s, etcetera. And, you know, we broke ground on over two hundred schools in each of those schools are now dedicated to an individual that the person who helped bring that school to freshen eyes close to and so that’s a really beautiful part, i find of the work that we d’oh but but, yeah, she she’s obviously sacrificed a ton so that i could be in the, you know, the life position that i’m in now. And so that was a big part of it, you know? And so over two hundred so my my intro was a little out of date you’re over two hundred? Yeah, wait, we’ve broken ground. I’m just over two hundred schools, ok? We’re going toe i’m going to transition. Teo tony’s take two very briefly and that’s a perfect point for adam. And i to kick off and we’ll get into some of his advice about scaling from twenty five dollars, to a million and possibly beyond and how that gets done because i know that you’re all in small and midsize non-profits and you’d like to know how pencils of promise did it. We need to take a break, wagner, cps they’ve got an archival webinar webinar that i employ you to check out, prepare your nine ninety for success if you are one of the fortunate organizations that is enthralled to complete the full nine ninety not that pure all easy form or the end, even the postcard then listen to wagner’s webinar and i’m doubling these wigan ours it’s a wagon r it includes common mistakes and most damaging mistakes you want to avoid those also how to use your nine ninety is a marketing tool click goto weinger cps dot com click resource is then wagon ours now time for tony’s take two non-profit radio will be back at the non-profit technology conference this month. It’s eighteen ninety see, the hashtag is eighty ninety see, we’re going to be in new orleans. It’s april eleven to thirteen non-profit radio will be at booth three. Oh, five will be recording tons of interviews. I wouldn’t be surprised if we get thirty or more. That was what it was two years ago when i was there. Interviews all smart people. You know what this is about? This is using technology smarter and quicker, more efficiently so that you can focus on goals and mission. And you know, that is not just for technologists. Are we living through this year after year? It gets so boring to hear it over and over. But we have new listeners. You got to know it is not just for technologists. So anybody who’s using technology that includes word wordpress? Are you using these things? Unless you’re still on index cards, you should be at ntc the non-profit technology conference because this is what antenna non-profit technology network is all about. Smarter use of technology for non-profits non-profit technology. It’s all linked together. All right, so if you go into the conference, check us out at booth three. Oh, five will have the bright lights because we’re shooting video and there will be lots of smart interviews to come along in the future. Months on. Non-profit radio, i don’t have any books yet, but lots of invitations air out, so i know there’s going to be we’re going to be covering like blockchain, which coincides with bitcoin, i hope you know that if you don’t, you’ll learn it. If you do, you’ll learn even more, but that’s just getting started. I mean, we got social media interviews that i’m sure we’re going to book. Um, um, planning oh, yes, strategic planning around technology, we’ve got a couple interviews that into invitations out. I’m sure we’ll get interviews for that, too. All right, so that’s coming up non-profit radio at the non-profit technology conference now we got to do a live listen love and what comes right after that. And then after that so the live love goes out? Yes, where i am a p recorded today. Um, so i can’t shout you out by city and state or country, but, you know, we got the we got the regulars, the regulars are always dropping by there’s always somebody in california there’s always multiple new york, new york there’s often staten island and brooklyn. We don’t get queens and bronx too often, so we’re going to assume that those people are there, and then there’s, new brunswick, new jersey, and new bern, north carolina. You know the regulars. Um, but if you’re not among the regular live listener, love goes out to you. Nonetheless, the podcast pleasantries thank you for listening on whatever device, whatever time, thank you for building us into your schedule and the affiliate affections to our many am and fm listeners throughout the country. Affections to you. Now we return to my conversation with adam braun and the pencils of promise story. Okay, adam, you’re still here. You hung around. Yeah, thankyou ways. We’ll keep talking since you, since you stayed around. Yeah, sure. Um from twenty five dollars, to now you’re over, you got over two hundred schools. Eso globally. Eso. We’ve broken ground. I’m more than two hundred, you know, once you break ground, it takes a couple months toe open him. So we’re right on the cusp of the two hundred being open, but we’ve broken ground on more than two hundred, okay, all right. What was what was day two? Like after the after twenty five dollars, now you’re still employed? So you you sort of bootstrap this, right? Right. So so bane gave me, you know, they said once i persuaded them to let me go do this because people hadn’t done entrepreneurial things through this external ship, okay? They said on dh, they’re not paying you during this now, so they let me keep my health insurance, which was nice of them, all right? And that i think they gave me, like, you know, very, very, very small stipend, monthly little income, but it wasn’t as much. So, you know, right after that they said to me, okay, we’ll let you go do this, but it has to be off the ground when you leave to pursue it so you can’t leave to create an organization, you have to work for something that’s in existence, so we need to at least see the filing, the registration, all of that kind of good stuff. So it took me about five months to get that done, and i knew in my head that i wanted teo start in march, that was just kind of the time frame so i had from october to march to get it off the ground, and the first thing obviously was i’m going to raise the money and my birthday is on halloween, and so i’d always thrown really fun halloween, you know, parties and often school. Since i was twenty one on words, i had always said, you don’t get five or ten or whatever dollars at the door and that’s going to go towards the charity of choice, oftentimes the cambodian children’s fund. And so i ended up basically during this big party in new york, saying, give twenty dollars at the door or whatever you want twenty five if you want, from a twenty fifth birthday and wait, about four hundred people came out come out, and we raised a thousand dollars and then friends, mind on people that attended the event said, wow, this is really great. I want to support pencils of promise more let’s do another one. So we threw another big event, which was a masquerade party, and then i had people in my apartment for new year’s, and i said, give whatever you want instead of paying, you know, some overpriced. Party in new york give whatever you can afford and, you know, we’ll put it towards helping build this first school, and so we end up raising the funds to build the first school just over those first three events, and at the same time, i was, you know, meeting after hours with, you know, probono lawyer to help get the registration done and when i started to do is kind of coal ah lot of different young professionals across new york who are interested in our work on dh say to them, ok, this is volunteer for all of us, but come meet at the main office are the goldman sachs office or what? Bbh was on advertising agency that one of the key people worked that we’d meet there, like nine, ten at night, we’d white port, a ton of stuff, and, you know, it was like a fun project at the time. I couldn’t even believe the first time that we had a white port session, i took a photo and was like, i can’t believe that pencil promises so real that we’re right here front dahna white-collar you know, it was such a big hurdle for us. And then i started teo late night. Just email anybody that i could that was associated with education in laos. Because that’s really what i wanted to start. I travelled the thanh and really found love of southeast asia. And i wanted to work in one of the areas that had very low ngo density. Not like one of the ones it’s kind of over served and saturated with ngo’s. I wanted to work in kind of the most underserved. Is that why you chose laos over cambodia? That was one of the big ones. Yeah, yeah. Now, that was one of the biggest reasons of the second one was that louse just from an economic indicator standpoint, has greater poverty, as does myanmar. But myanmar was politically cut off in two thousand eight. You’re gonna get in the country. So when i thought about the region i loved most plants just really fit all the kind of buttons that i was looking at the potion. So fortunately, after a lot of people either ignoring my emails are telling me to go away. One organizations important lesson there never, never discouraged or maybe discovered, but never stopped by people. Turning you down flat? Yeah, it wasn’t like i just said, i want to build a school class and i emailed somebody and they said yes, then there was silence for a long time. There’s ah, similar lesson i’m thinking of the academy awards were just a couple nights ago on dh matthew mcconaughey won best actor for dallas buyers club, and i saw a clip of him saying that the production of the movie was turned down one hundred and one hundred thirty seven times one hundred fifty seven times he was counting, but over four years, obviously the film got made, and then he just won best actor and the supporting actor one the coast doctor was won best supporting actor. Yeah, so not to be, you know, don’t it? I mean, matthew mcconaughey gets turned down, adam broadened, gets turned down a lot. You don’t, you don’t stop. Yeah, i mean, i can’t remember for the how the line was phrase in the book, but there was something about it got iterated a bunch of times over different drafts, you know, it wasn’t a changing stuff, but one of the things that i tried to really share. With people was that, you know, the kind of best friend of any entrepreneur is resilience that you’re going to get turned down over and over and over again, and people are going to come in and out of your organization and some of them you’re going to think are kind of the savior and going to make everything perfect on and some people you’re going to say like they’re not doing anything on dh, they might end up being really fantastic, but at the end of the day, if you don’t have significant resilience and just this kind of done, like no matter what happens undaunted sense, you know that to the idea of being an impossible list it’s, like you get excited when people say it’s impossible, and so people keep on saying to me like, oh no, this can’t happen or you don’t want to work here one reason or another white shouldn’t be, and i just knew it had to be there, and so i just wouldn’t stop until i found the right person that could help me get a foot in the door. And unfortunately, this married couple that was living in new jersey, they had an office further small business in new york city, i said, yeah, we built almost twenty schools of the last decade in laos. We’d love to chat with you, and so i took the n train down after work from times square, toe prints street and weigh enough spending four hours together and they were like, yeah, we’re working in the exact region where you’re interested, and if you’ve raised the funds already, we can help you get in the foot foot in the door, and we have ah, local coordinator named tong chan, who lives in long for bunkhouse so he can help you on the ground. And so it’s a crate, i’ll fly out there, i’ll figure it out, you know, get my backpack on last second of buddy of mine came with me, and then this is when the bangkok airport riots happened in two thousand eight, and so he had to turn around because he’s, south african at these issues. So now i’m like, alone on a bumpy ten hour bus headed upto laos land in a backpacker guest house for ten dollars a night and that’s where i stayed and this guy took me around and introduced me. The education ministry helped set up the creation of our very first school. And then eventually, when i needed my own staff, the first woman that i went to was the young lady who did the dishes and clean the sheets at the guest house where i’m staying. And i asked her to become our first coordinator as a volunteer. She said i would love to, but you need to ask my mom for permission sight that put on like my one deed up button down that was in the bottom of a backpack that i was carrying with me. Ask her mom and her mom kind of said, yeah, but only under these conditions and long story short, that woman is now our country head on. Allows she manages a forty person staff. And when the southeast asia games happened a few years ago, she was the mohammed ali. She let the torch in the middle of understand. What did you see in her? As the woman who was doing the house, keeping at the the guesthouse? It’s tough to explain, but she’s just one of those people who has a light about them when you spend time with her, she just makes you happy. She just has immense. I would say dignity, you know, she she just and that’s one of the things that people always ask me as well, how do you know to trust people and make sure that money doesn’t get lost when you work in the developing world? And that was one thing that was really essential to me is that we would build a model where every single dollar was used as efficiently as possible. And that meant not paying out outside contractors and funding, you know, outside entities, but actually keeping money in our organization, hiring our own staff to execute on our programs. And this woman illinois she’s, just one of those exceptional people. You can’t meet her and not believe in her on dh. So you know, she she made it easy on me, and she spoke great english. That was another thing. It was really tough to find anyone who spoke quality english and her english was actually fantastic. Something in your gut, though, to hell for not having called god with her. And it was it’s proven. I mean, she’s like the star of the organization the’s a great lessons for scaling. All right, so the first school gets built, i’m goingto go through seller accelerated version. We have an hour, but we only have an hour. How do you continue to scale the organization to getting to know a quarter million dollars a year budget? Half million dollar year? Yeah, eso won. We realized, ah, that our events could make you know, let’s say between five and thirty thousand dollars and that that at the time, for me, it was really exciting. Like, wow, we made twenty five thousand. I mean, we didn’t have a single thousand dollar donor at the time. Ninety eight percent of pencils of promise is donations in await no nine were in amounts of one hundred dollars or less. So, you know, getting like a five hundred dollar donation was huge if somebody bought a fifty dollar ticket to one of our events and then paypal later on, so i don’t know there was an error and gave them their money back. I was like hounding them for the fifty dollars. So so that’s, how small we were. And fortunately, one of the girls that was on our leadership team who was volunteering on the side had worked on building a non-profit previously, that was also a kind of small organization built by young professionals on the sides of their job, and she just said out, right, i will not participate in this if our fund-raising model is event based, its just not scaleable we can’t keep doing events that that’s an important lesson, a lot of small shops, you need to know that it’s it’s just not not scaleable, not sustainable, exactly events just so time consuming, and you don’t draw the right kind of people all the time consistent, you know, long term don’t type people for sure. And i remember when she said that i was frustrated. It sounds like we’re doing really well, why not going my model, right? Yeah, i mean, when you’re starting and you know, something like five or ten or twenty thousand dollars feels like a huge amount. It’s it’s really hard to say no, no, we’re not gonna keep doing this, but that’s the only way that you’re going to get to a bigger level so you were willing to let her shake you up to oh, definitely, i think that’s one of the essential parts of leadership is to surround yourself with people who are better than you at most of the leadership characteristics that you need within an organization, and to find the kind of one nugget where you are fantastic, or you could almost have an unfair competitive advantage over anybody else in the world and in my case, that’s telling the story of pencils of promise and believing in it with relentless conviction to the point where people can’t turn away from it. That’s what i’m uniquely qualified in exceptional to dio now executing an event, there’s a lot of people that are better than me at that fund-raising design digital there’s all people out there that can do those things better than me, and my job is to give them an opportunity to manifest and to become the best version of themselves through this organization by doing what they love most and what their most capable and so so, yeah, i was very open toe her belief that that was the, you know, the path that we needed to take was not to become over dependent on our events, and so we had to. Kind of take a risk in another direction. I think that’s also a really important part of anybody that’s trying to chief scale is you have to try and predict where the world is going, then position yourselves ahead of the curve and then, you know, grow into that next phase and it’s it’s, scary and it’s risky, because if you’re wrong, you’re organization potentially shuts down, but what i did is i took two bets. I would say the first one was on the rise of digital on social media. I keep mine. This is two thousand eight early two thousand nine you know, twitter was essentially, you know, not really on the scene at all. Instagram hadn’t even started the dominant social platform at the time was rapidly becoming facebook, but it certainly wasn’t used by non-profit professionals as significant area of dahna engagement people were thinking about direct mailing, they were thinking about, you know, face-to-face communications and they were really focused on major gifts, and so i was mark zuckerberg xero in college s o he started facebook at harvard as a sophomore in two thousand for i was a sophomore at brown at the time. And my best friend had a identical twin who went to harvard, and so we were like the beta testers from facebook, and so all of my friends were on the platform, and i could see that all these other people were going to be coming on soon. So if we became one of the most, i would say present organizations and kind of lead the way on how to engage people through digital on social media, it could really elevate our brand status and game kind of significance for us. So that was the first kind of bet was focusing on building a digital community rather than going after major donors and just saying, all right, let’s focus on the quality of our work and the scalability of a model on the ground. Our core programs let’s focus on building community specifically through digital, and then the third one was betting that cause marketing would become really relevant for major brands and that if they were interested in investing their dollars into creating social good, that we as an organization that built schools all around the world would be a really good fit for some of those corporate contributions. And so that’s, what i focused on in two thousand, i would say nine in early two thousand ten when i eventually would like to schools, and i left man to do this full time. I didn’t focus on high net worth individuals and in focus on major fund-raising focused on programs community on dh, eventually getting a story that would draw in corporate engagement, and by late two thousand ten, suddenly we had all three in place, and this is another mantra in the book is you only get one chance at a first impression, and so i didn’t do a single interview. I didn’t tell our story in any platform for two years, until we have more than ten schools, at which point i felt like we had a great story that could travel and at that point in time shared it with ah writer at the huffington post, and much to my surprise landing on the the cover of huffpost impact on the story was like how one backpacker built fifteen schools with just one pencil on so it’s kind of this story that could travel and next thing i knew, i had tons of corporate saying hey, we want to work with you, you know, startup brands, and we suddenly had our choice to say yes, we will take your dollars in this fashion if you build this campaign with us and we jumped up from you know, about less than fifty thousand dollars the first year less than one hundred thousand dollars the next year and by two thousand ten, we’re raising over a million dollars. We gotta go out for a couple minutes. We’ll be right back. I’d love the cliffhanging moments. Outstanding. Hang in there. Got to take a break. Tell us the credit card payment processing company you want to get affiliated with them, you want to check them out? People have been going to the web site let’s get them actual leads. Because this is a long tale of passive revenue for your organization. Check out the video at twenty dahna slash tony tello’s. That explains everything. The basics of it is are the basics. Are that’s a plural? The basics of it are that you get businesses. Local businesses that take credit cards, name one that doesn’t. And you encourage them to support your organization by switching to tell us. For their credit card processing. Okay, they they have a processor now it is a good chance is a bank. The fees are high, you’ve got lower fees. And as they switch and do transactions, you get fifty percent of all those transactions ad infinitum, that’s the long revenue tail. Tony dahna i’m a slash tony tell us now, back to adam braun. Welcome back, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Andi, we’re talking about a non-profit that went from small to deeply midsize, but lots of lessons for everybody who wants to scale an organization, which is a lot of people. I get a i get a lot of enquiries from organizations that are one or two people, you know? How do we get to the next level? And adam, you’ve laid out, you know, three your story, probably half a dozen valuable lessons. What else? What else would you say to people situated like that? So for us to continue scaling after kind of taking those almost calculated bats on the places that we thought that the industry would go, i kind of started to really hit the road and speak as much as i could in front of audiences. And this is another, i think, really important lesson for anyone. That’s, that’s, tryingto grow, and it goes beyond just the direct lesson, but it’s something that i found more than just in public speaking engagements, but anywhere that i end up, which is this mantra, focus on one person in every room. And so i thought initially, if i give a speech and there’s twenty five, people there that’s, twenty five potential donors and every single one of them needs to leave the room, becoming a supporter of pencils of promise and so it’s kind of this funny story in the book, but the first speech that i gave was that oklahoma state university, one of largest colleges in the country i’m picturing like dahna stadium with like, throngs of cheering college students, you know, thousands of kids like yeah, we want. And i went to my speech that visualization tohave, though, was wonderful did not come to fruition on, so i walk in the room and there’s one person at my first speech. Ah, and so i had, like, a forty five minute speech prepared that i had to give tow my four. Friends that were already there traveling with me and then this this one girl, chelsea. And much to my surprise, she became this incredible advocate of the organization, started our first college chapter, launched a kind of campus network, brought it down to the high school level, spoke at her alma mater, got this one kid on in that room, completely engaged around the organization. His name’s andrew gray. He became obsessed with our work here. It ended up taking over the chapter when he went to oklahoma state. He became so interested in what we do know that he then went on semester at sea. He just spoke at the u n in geneva like months ago on dh there’s all these incredible stories of individuals taking our work and making it their own and kind of becoming the next torchbearer and helping scale what we do. But it it’s not a deluded set of convictions across a mass scale of people it’s actually having fewer but more deeply engaged people. That adds trends value to your work as an organization. So now when i go into room, i’m looking for one person in every single room that could be the anchor and then it’s up to them to build the community. It’s not up to me on dso and i share that very openly, and you’d be amazed with the traction that it gets if you’re giving a speech and you say, i’m looking for one person here and almost creates this area exclusivity and people want things, yeah, i want to be the person. No, no, i want to off you the minute. I mean, after after speeches now consistently have somebody come up here and say that, you know, you spoke for thirty minutes. He spoke for ten minutes. You spoke for an hour, i just want, you know, when you said that i’m looking for one person, i’m that person. This is what i’ve been seeking out. You just gave me the opportunity. I’m going to be your one, and then they feel accountable, teo helping make sure that we succeed as an organization. And so what do you do if the next person walks up and says the exact same thing? I say you two should talk and see who will be the one you duke it out, all right? At least you’re honest. You don’t say, oh, well, great, great! You’re the first one who came alright, i duplicitous, um, there’s half a dozen more behind you. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. S oh, yeah, that was a really, really big important lesson for and then another one eyes this this mantra fess up to your failures. I think that a lot of times we in individuals that work in this space, we feel like we could never be wrong because one the nature of the work doesn’t, you know, promote failure. If you’re trying to help somebody else, no one wants to see you fail, and you certainly don’t want to speak about your failures. And then secondly, it’s such a uphill battle to begin with that it seems counterintuitive to say, oh, no, i feel that i failed miserably and let me tell you about that failure. But one of the things that i’ve seen is that the times that i fall down the times that i fail, if i really accepted my own and i speak about it openly it’s amazing to see one the opportunities for growth that come out of failure, it’s usually not when you’re succeeding that suddenly you’re able to grow tremendously as an individual are as an organization, but it’s, when things go really wrong. In our case, we had two staff members basically jumped and held up at knifepoint in guatemala and up until that point, you know what? We were all kind of twentysomethings excited about the work like, hey, we’re helping out these kids in these communities, and suddenly we realize the weight of responsibility that we had, we don’t have any like, you know, kinda would say policies or procedures set upfor ramifications of what happens if there’s a disaster in country, and we suddenly said, like, wow, this is a lot more serious this work that we’re doing them, we’re realizing and it’s time for us to step up as an organization, that means tightening up two screws, not just in our inn country policies, but what happens in our home office in new york. What happens if one of our external event something goes wrong and it really forced tremendous growth for us as an organization than as individuals that forced us to become really close together as it’s? Kind of, you know, not know so they friends but colleagues and you know, having friendship type relationships within our work together and so that’s, another big one for me is just when things go wrong, she’d see that as an opportunity for growth and, you know, fessed up to your failure admit what went wrong because you’ll find that people who want to see you grow and succeed will start to invest more heavily in your long term success. What is next for pencils of promise that’s on the horizon? So we have some now really big, ambitious goals beyond our school building we’ve launched in the last few years, programs on teacher training and student scholarships, so putting up the four walls, making sure the community’s air heavily invested andi do that through a lot of things. Probably the most well known ofwhich is ten to twenty percent of the funding from every one of our school’s comes from the community itself, and since they don’t have any, you know, oftentimes there, unless in two dollars a day, they don’t have the dollars to pay for it. What they’ll end up doing is they’ll provide that contribution through materials and labor will physically build their own school, which is really you know, leads to significant ownership in investment. And so we realized we need to go beyond just the four walls. We need to make sure we have great teachers. So teacher training scholarships. But the biggest thing for us is one sharing with people that, you know, for twenty five thousand dollars, they could build a school for two hundred fifty dollars. They can provide a scholarship for five hundred dollars, they can train a teacher, and then ultimately, we recognize that education is changing. And so we’re launching a series of innovation pilots to incorporate new technologies and new teaching methods in the classrooms, including your three d printing. Yeah, it’s not yeah, yeah, so we’re incorporating three d printers in laos. Teo, create literacy in a box. Tool kits were putting e readers in our classrooms in ghana piloting, seeing how those go we’re looking into building a long distance radio program. Teo get increased storytelling into rural communities. And m i t a think tank out of them. It is helping us build that. And so it’s really exciting what’s ahead and we have to go out with this. What is it that you love about? The work you’re doing, i love that that it makes people come alive on that. It brings them a sense of purpose and fulfillment and meaning. Thank you very much out of brian. Thank you. The book is the promise of a pencil. The organization is pencils of promise dot or ge and you’ll find adam and adam braun dot com again, thanks very much out of my pleasure. Thank you for having me my pleasure. Next week we’re going to remember the ice bucket challenge twenty fourteen. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio, whether see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com and tell us credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream tourney dahna slash tony tell us are pretty creative producer is claire meyerhoff sent liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez, and this wonderful music is by scott stein of brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Hey! You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi. I’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentially ater tune in every tuesday line to ten eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c. Are you feeling unhappy with your body, shape or size? Ever feel out of control with food? I’m elizabeth from nourish the soul, and on the show, you’ll uncover the route to these imbalances and discover a permanent solution. Latto having a healthy relationship to food and your body. Join us every thursday morning at eleven a, m eastern time on talk radio dot. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? 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That’s, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, thursday’s twelve, noon on talk radio dot. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Napor

Nonprofit Radio for March 9, 2018: Risk Management & Your Disaster Recovery Plan

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Ted Bilich: Risk Management

“Not all risks are bad,” says Ted Bilich. He’ll help you identify the good and bad ones and get them into your risk inventory. He’s CEO of Risk Alternatives, LLC.

 

 

 

Dar Veverka: Your Disaster Recovery Plan

An IT disaster is one of the bad risks. What belongs in your DR plan? Dar Veverka is from LIFT and she’ll help you sort it out. (Originally aired 5/1/15)

 

 


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Buy-in hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d break out with cering go sista noma, if you made me sweat with the idea that you missed today’s show risk management, not all risk is bad, says ted village. We’ll walk you through why you should care about the good and bad and how to get going with your risk inventory he’s ceo of risk-alternatives and your disaster recovery plan one bad risk is you’re going to put ignore it at your own peril. What belongs in your d our plan darva arika is from lift that originally aired on may fifth twenty fifteen i’ll take two charity registration and plan giving podcasts responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio and by weinger cps guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dot, m a slash tony tell us it’s my pleasure to welcome ted village. He is ceo of risk-alternatives llc, providing risk management and process improvement. Solutions for non-profits and start ups he used to practice law and has served on the boards of numerous organizations. Ted has written about risk management and process improvement in stanford social innovation review, where you can also hear this show. Corporate responsibility magazine. This show is not on corporate sponsors. What magazine and risk management magazine were also not there. He’s at t bilich and the company is at risk. Hyphen alternatives dot com welcome to non-profit radio. Ted. Tony it’s. Great to be here. I hope you’re doing well. Thank you. I am. And how are you? I have to ask. I’m doing great. Thanks. I’m glad. Everybody’s. Good today. All right. Um all right. You’ve been in some magazines that non-profits are most likely not reading responsability magazine. Corpse. Sorry. Corporate responsibility magazine risk management magazine. I’m sure you’re not unfamiliar with this risk management sounds boring. Why either boring or scary? Alright. And if this was not on some affiliate stations, i might use stronger language. I might put it. Put an adjective on before the word for before the word boring. Oh, my god. Why should we be paying attention to this? You know you. Hit on one of the most important issues that i face, which is when people think about risk management, they think about either the fact that it’s one more obligation for them or that they don’t wanna lift up rocks because they’re afraid of what what’s under them and and, you know, what i say to people time and time again is that risk management is a critical part of your business because especially if you’re a non-profit you are dealing with more risks than almost any other organization you could possibly think of, you know, think of the non-profit business model, toni it’s, your taking money from strangers in order to deal with intractable problems. And if you do your job really well, your business should go out of business that’s a risky model, so it really pays to pay attention to risk management, and we could get into sort of what that means if you’d like, yeah, we’re going to, um you do say that not all risk is bad. That’s exactly right? Flush it out. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You know, one of the one of the issues in risk management is what do you mean by rich? And risk matt necessarily mean bad things risk. So i always tell people, when you’re talking about risk talking about uncertainty management, you could have bad risk that could go go, go wrong, and we call those threats. He could also have good rick, you know, opportunities either opportunities for improvement of your current processes or opportunities in the sense of new initiatives, and all of that is within the framework of a good risk management process. Okay, so i like the idea of we don’t know what’s going to happen next. It’s. Just it’s something we don’t know, right? So it does not. Of course, it does not have to be bad. It could be fantastic, right? Okay, absolutely. You know, it could be that that that there is a new donor who is waiting to not give you money if you expand your programs in a new direction, but simply wants to give you money to do mohr of what you’re doing now. And you believe that this is important for non-profit sustainability? Oh, gosh, yes, if you don’t, if you don’t have a risk management process, tony, then let’s say, you’re thinking about having a strategic plan or you have a strategic plan, how can you possibly have confidence that that strategic plan is going to accomplish its its objective if you don’t have a really strong awareness of what your current capabilities are, including what the threats and opportunities are that face your organization? So there’s this thing out there called a swot tte or swat analysis? Um s w o t the o’s opportunities in the tear threats i forget with the what do you what’s the s and the w its strength and weak she’s. So weak threat. Thank you. All right. Yeah. And and people use that sometime during strategic planning process. Okay, so this is s so we’re calling altum positive risks or good risks. That that’s the opportunity. That’s, right? Those are opportunities there. Potential opportunities? Ok. Yes, exactly. And one of the things that i talk to people about when when they talk about a swat analysis, is that swat analysis tends to be a static once every couple of years, activity done during strategic planning. One way to think about risk took that slot and alan and you operationalized it so that you were as a matter of routine, looking at your strengths and weaknesses and opportunities and threats. That’s one way to think about a risk management structure is it’s taking the swat process and making it something that is ongoing over time. I think it should be swope i think it’s a long hour, i know not to quibble, but i think it’s, of course, equivalent, but i think it’s a long oh, i think so long, so might be, but i don’t think that negates anything that you just said, i don’t know listeners thinking that all right, so so an ongoing process. Now you you have this cool article. Stanford social innovation review called a call for non-profit risk management, you make very clear in that, and we have about a minute before first break make very clear that that this is not really appropriate for start ups. If you start up basically, your your argument is you can cover this most of your problems or potential risks with insurance. But so when when should we start doing formalized risk analysis? You know, a good signal for that, tony and briefly before break good signal is when you start doing, when you start having regular audit, um, that usually happens when a non-profit is going into growth phase, and at that point, it’s useful to start having a risk management process because after all, you’re becoming a grown up organization. Okay, so when you start when you start having going through an audit process with your right when you and then that usually in love that you know, depending on the state seven hundred fifty thousand dollars to a million dollars of annual revenue, okay, let’s, take our first break pursuant, their newest paper demystifying the donor journey. You need to be intentional, deliberate about stuart in your donors, we’re talking about being delivered today, assessing risk. You also need to be deliberate about stewarding your donors so you don’t lose them. Pursue it will help you create and fine tune your donorsearch stewardship plan. Keep your donors with you so you don’t have to replace them each year. Demystifying the donor journey it’s at tony dot m a slash pursuant, radio let’s, go back to ted village and let’s continue our talk about risk management thiss ongoing assessment process so all right, so we know when we should begin. Um, what shall we begin with? Is it? Is it the risk inventory? That’s exactly right, tony the first step still, this good risk management process is too take stock of where you are now because you can’t start prioritizing if you don’t have awareness of what your current threats and opportunities are so there’s a process risk-alternatives hq inventory it’s simply a structured exercise that you take your staff through to help them identify threats and opportunities not just within operations, but operations and finance that i t and a talent management and development and all those different functions within the non-profit and it usually takes about, you know, two or three hours of work total for your staff to do something like this spread out over a couple of weeks, and at the end of it, you have a really good idea of the threats and opportunities you currently face, really only two to three hours for each put threespot actually not that hard of a process in fact, your listeners could go to our website, risk-alternatives risk-alternatives dot com and download a little report that shows you how to do it on your own when we do it as a facilitated manner. It takes about an hour to train people about risk management, and then they go off on their own and each person takes about forty minutes to use an online tool toe identify these threats and opportunity. So it’s really not a long involved process. I love the online resource. Thank you for that. So again, risk hyphen alternatives dot com let’s say i want to flush this risk inventory a little bit. So who should be involved in this process? First of all? Well, when when we advise customers to do it, we always say you should have your c sweet team. I’m assuming that that you have a small, that this is a fairly small organization were small. There were small to midsize non-profits here, however you think one point five, two million dollars to five million dollars in revenues, you probably have a ceo cfo, a head of development in in some form or another, and probably someone in charge of programs. You would want to have those people, but we also also always advised get one person who’s simply a staff member right on the front line and have them do it along with the senior team because they’re no thing that that the senior staff don’t have any id dea is going on. Yeah, i know that there. That could be very eye opening on ly one person, though, from from down in the trenches. Well, on in your initial risk inventory, tony wanna balance thoroughness with efficiency. And so with this initial inventory, i think it’s good to have one person from the trenches. But this is mostly going to be a bottom down identification process. His first run through the idea behind it, though, is that risk management is not a one and done thing. You do an inventory, you prioritize, you respond to those you assess and improve, and then you do another inventory and so on and so forth. And as as you grow this within your organization, you would want to make sure that mohr and more people are involved in that risk identification process. All right, so i see we’ve got an interpretive process. Let’s, go back to our initial one now. All right, so we’ve got this were basically creating a committee, that’s going to meet a couple of times, you said over, like two or three weeks. We’re creating a committee. A risk risk assessment committee is not going to scare people like we think committee, right? Okay, that sounds like when, when, when people below the c suite start hearing there’s, a risk assessment committee being formed. That sounds like they’re going to firings, coming, eyes firing or they know about. They know about the seven deadly plagues that are ten deadly plagues, depending on which version bible you read. There’s, locusts and blood and darkness coming on dh, what else we got flies really was that part of the buy-in frogs, frogs that was the effort, the other fellow. So this sounds a little scary to me if i’m not on the committee, no that’s exactly right, which is why one of the things that we advise the senior staff to do when they decide to go through this sort of exercise is to send in all staff e mail out saying, you know, we’re doing this process so that we can dip our toe in the in the waters of risk management. It’s not a matter of something to worry about. In fact, the idea over time is to get everyone in the organization involved in this process, okay? So yeah, and we’re actually trying to do is reduce worry by identifying what’s out there that we don’t know. So we’re identifying are known unknowns. What about our unknown unknowns? Can we get to them? They’re always going to be things that are unknowable, you know, there’s, a wonderful book by, uh, well, it’s called the black swan. Have you read it, tony? You know, i think i saw a movie called black swan, but i don’t i don’t think it’s very different now a very different from what i’m talking about, okay, this book is about how, no matter how well you might try to predict the future, there are always going to be significant jolt of one sort or another that you can’t possibly predict beforehand. And so you know, i again, i always tell people, risk management is not a crystal ball. The better analogy is risk management is a flashlight in the dark, it allows you to see things you might not otherwise see. It makes the path a little safer because you can see some of the things that that might be bad along the way and some of the things that might be good, that can help you, but it also gives you a healthy sense of maybe we shouldn’t be running too fast, because if we run too fast, we’re not going to see the things that could trip let’s. Let’s, go back to our to our initial committee now. So so how do we ah wei, is that there’s a risk assessment committee? Yeah. Can we call that? Okay, managing committee, risk inventory shoretz are risking our r i c were first our first rick. So way get the group together. What do we do? How do we get the process started? If we don’t, we don’t have the luxury of the of a professional facilitator, right? Well, if i were doing it and i didn’t want to bring my company or some other company and it’s, what i would do is i would cheat in the following way, i would go get that that report that that we have on our website and i would download that and it says, ah, this is how you do it. These air, the various different functions that you want to look at, and it lists eleven different functions of the organization, and it says what you ought to do is you hot auto, have each team member within each function, identify three things that could go wrong, and one thing that could go right in the near future either because it’s a new process that we could adopt, or a new initiative or a process that we could tweak in some way. So each one of the people goes off and does and and they identify three threats and one opportunity in each function of the organization. Okay, then they do it, but they do it, tony, even if it’s not their function oh, you’re going all right. Well, let’s, take one step at a time. First of all, just just name a couple of the functions. You know, talent management. Okay. Hiring, developing and if necessary, firing people that’s one funky reputation management, you know, how do you influence what? What people think about your organization. Um, fernand is another function. How do you account for the money that flows through the the organization? Just give us one. Give us one more. We don’t want to eleven. Because because there are available on the title is the big ones. You know, how do you use elektronik technology in order to enhance the services you provide? Why’re we waited three, three potential bad and one potential. Good. Why can’t we be? Do equalize it out two and two. You could do it that way. I’ve found just over time that people are going to be very, very, um, free with identifying things that could go wrong. People have lots of worries, especially during an initial risk inventory. They like to dump a lot of stuff out on on the table it the reason why we emphasize identifying at least one opportunity is that we want them to be balanced in their presentation to some extent. Nevertheless, it always is that people are going to identify more threats than opportunities, and so we’ve set it up as a rubric of three to one to at least get the one in each because really not balance it’s tze, twenty five percent good and seventy five percent bad, but but you see, people are thinking mohr negatively, people thinking more about the bad risks that’s, right? And and also when when you know, when we reconvene after after having people look at those things out on their own. One thing that that happens is that the team the committee that you’ve developed is going to find that they identified it ah lot of the same risk, so you might get a list of one hundred risks, but really it’s going to end up with about sixty sixty to seventy risks and and a lot of those things that they identify as bad things aren’t going to stand up to the light of day one person might be worried, but another person has a full explanation, and so it will simply go away. You’ll end up with about forty or fifty for challenge either positive challenges or negative challenges, and and at the end of that process, i can almost guarantee that someone who does this will be aware of two or three things that are low hanging fruit, that they can pick very rapidly in order to help their organization thrives. Now, are we allowed to come back to the committee then with mohr than the four that you challenged us with? And then the committee and the committee flushes them out to get down to this forty or fifty? Is that the way it works? Yes, if someone wants to identify more than three threats and one opportunity, i would never say, no, you can’t, but but on the other hand, you don’t want someone, for instance, to focus so much on this that they become, you know, all engrossed in in their potential worries rather than doing their job. So you wanted to be somewhat manageable, all right? We’re in the details of this, which is where i want to be. So so our first meeting is introductory. And then we give some homework second meeting you’re coming back in a week or maybe give him ten days. All right, maybe it’s a it was a long weekend in there, so e-giving e-giving ten days you’re coming back with your your analysis of threats and opportunities with the understanding that we’re going to narrow, we as a committee are going to narrow it down to three, three and one for each functional area, okay? No, no, no, that that i think i misled you on that one. Well, you’re going to narrow it down to a certain number of risks. It may be that there are that that the committee ends up saying, yeah, there really are seventeen risks in the development function. And they all are really rich. Each person would have identified only three. But, you know, maybe maybe it ended up that that you had ah, fifteen at least, um, legitimate risks threats that were identified, that is, you don’t limit it artificially as far as the total number of risk that could be identified within a function. Okay, i think you did mislead me, but that’s all right? You know, character. So listeners going go back, listen to what ted originally set the record will now pass that’s, right? I think it’ll show that i’m correct, but, um, so all right, so and you had also said that people can identify threats and opportunities outside their their own functional area, so a cfo can comment on it, and i can’t comment on hr and talent development, et cetera. Okay, um, that’s our second meeting, what happens after that? Now, we’ve now we’ve got our core of forty to fifty yeah, you’ve got your core of forty to fifty. The next step in that in the process would be to prioritize along those risks, because if you have forty two, fifty two, sixty risks and you think they’re all equally important, well, you’re just going to be frozen in inaction. So the next step is to use whatever tool you wish to use to prioritize those risks down to the most important ones that your organization face. And when i’m advising r our clients, i say the simpler the better, as far as prioritization, use a simple, you know, ah, point system, where each person on the team gets a certain number of points and they can allocate those points, however they wish among the fifty or sixty rhys so that if you want to push him all of your chips on toe one risk because you think that’s really important and should be really high priority for the organization, you could do that. Um, and and by doing that, you end up with your top ten or fifteen risk that got the most points and those become your first prioritized punch list of high value items that your organization should focus on during the coming period of time. You could do this like a poker game. You could all be you could buy everybody a stack of chips and okay, number one, we’re going to go through all forty or fifty. Number one who wants to throw is number one throwing your chips. But when you have a chip on that one that you exactly right, good bet judiciously, because when you’re out of chips, then you’re silent. There’s no taking chips back. Alright, right? Yeah. And? And what is happening is that people will take different different approaches to deciding what you know what their priority risks are and and the reason why. I say it needs to be a simple process is that deciding priority really is a judgment call? It has something to do with how dangerous or how good is this opportunity of its opportunity? How, how, how big is the risk if it comes about, how likely is it to come about? And if it comes about, how much lead time are we going to get before it manifest? Seldman now, you know, if you’re a multi billion dollar corporation, you khun create huge financial models to make those sorts of decision, but for the average non-profit you have to rely on people’s considered judgment, and so having a simple prioritization process where people are told, you know, consider those three factors and then put your chips the way they should. It ends up being a pretty powerful system for identifying the core risk organization and say those three three factors again, yes, it is it’s, the magnitude of the risk if it comes about the likelihood of the risk coming about and how much lead time you’re going tohave once the risk manifests itself before the full impact hit, okay, that third one could be it could be a day or so? I mean, that could be short term and they could on the end. And that might mean that you would get several rank that risk hyre because you don’t get that much lead. On the other hand, if you’re talking about a legislative change, you might have not in front. Okay? Yes, exactly. Yeah. So you’re aware, of course, weighing the factors, it might be low, like a low, low, low probability, but xero lead time and great magnitude you’re going to rank that thing. Hyre okay. All right, all right. So now we’ve got our ten. We’ve got our top ten. Yeah. Now, do we continue in just the committee and dealing with these? Or do we start to open it up in, like, meeting three or four guard to open it up? Ok, start opening up when you, when you boil that tend the risks down to your poor wrist, then you start opening it up to the rest of your staff by bringing those the list of those risks to your staff meetings and talking about those with your staff asking, ah, you know, for for their reactions tow those risks. Signing those. Risks, too. Particular people tto be dealt with a signing check in dates for when when you’re going to check back, you know that that list of core risks, which is second big tool that risk managers use, they call it a risk register. But that prioritized list becomes the operational judge document that you share with your staff in all staff meetings and and other staff meetings. You also share that up to your board of directors because those are the core risk that the organisation face and the board may want to weigh in on some of those risks. Excellent. Ted. We’re gonna leave it there. That’s a perfect place to ah overviewing on dh, of course, there’s get you could get thie get the format at risk. Hyphen alternatives dot com. You could follow ted at t bilich b i l i c h ted village. Thank you so much for sharing. Uh, tony was great to be here. Thank you so much for having me on my pleasure. We need to take a break. Wittner, cps, anek cerp from the latest testimonial quote, they’re accessible. They care about their clients. End quote, can you say that about your accounting and audit firm? This is another way that wagner goes beyond the numbers remember all the guides and the templates you heard me rattle on about, but they’re valuable. So it’s rattling and it’s valuable rattle. Yes, it was very it was a high tone rattle, good tone, so there’s that but then there’s also they’re accessible. They care let’s make it personal. Talk to eat. Which tomb he’s. The guy you want to talk to? Check out wagner, cpas, dot com he’s a very good guy. Now time for tony’s take two two people have me on their podcasts, it’s their lives joe correct, and i talked about charity registration. Now, first of all, i have to apologize to joe correct, who i’ve always called joe garrick, including what he was on the show. Why he didn’t correct me, i guess. It’s too polite. I don’t know. I think i take notes. Well, as long as they’re not from my wife, i think i’m open so i would. Appreciate it, but joe correct did not. So i have to correct, correct and eso yes, joe, correct, and i did charity registration and i did, launching a planned e-giving program with heather yan tao. Those are my two tricks to trick pony that’s what i know, plan giving and charity registration heimans lots of people say they feel passionate, passionate about their their work you need i love you. The twitter bios air are actually pretty interesting there’s a lot of passion out there, they’re passionate about whatever they do. I don’t know, i like it. I like playing giving i like charity registration let’s just leave it at that let’s not get carried away about passion. Um, so those are the two things i talked about. So the plan the plan giving with heather watching apollo program? Not surprisingly, i talked about charitable bequests that is the place to begin your plan giving program, as you know, and it could be the place to stop. If you’re a smaller, maybe even midsize shop, you don’t want to invest in more and more like infrastructure and further expertise or something it’s not necessary, you can have a very respectable program with charitable bequests start and stop there so you’ll hear that message. And then, of course, we’re going to more detail about starting a plan giving program against marketing tips that i shared with heather et cetera and for charity registration that was the one with job. Correct? Um, you know, the biggest hook with that is your donate. Now button, if you have a donate now button on your website, you’re accepting gifts on your site. That thing is a solicitation in lots of states the day that it goes live, and it doesn’t matter whether anybody in montana ever clicks on it. I don’t know if montana is one states you gotta register is like ten or twelve states where you don’t but let’s just don’t don’t fight the hypothetical, um, it’s it’s a solicitation in a lot of states, the moment it goes live because people in those states can see it so that’s a big hook you donate now button and just generally, of course, charity registration. You need to be registered in each state where you solicit donations, and joe and i went into some of the generalities about registration because it’s a morass. But there are some generalizations you could draw about what the states require in terms of timing and forms and fees, things like that when you get into the weeds of charity registration, then that’s where it’s it’s a morass because every state has its own let’s be polite and say video sync christie’s that they’re their own personalities that must emerge through the charity registration channel so you can’t make a lot of you can’t go into a lot of detail and, you know, like a forty minute podcast, but there are generalizations you can draw, and so we talk about exemptions also exemptions or key, you know, once you find a state that you need to register in because, you know you’re soliciting in that state, the first thing you want to do is look at the exemptions in that state. What do those look like? Because you might very well be exempt. Then, of course, drill down to the details of exemptions and that’s where the morass comes in is in a state where you apply for the exemption or the state, and you have to be approved for the exemption. Or is it a state where? You could just walk away, throw up your hands and go to the next state because you just deem yourself exempt, right? So joe, correct, and i talked about the exemption, of course, too, because, you know, you could save a lot of time if you find that you are exempt. All right. So carrie restoration job, correct planned e-giving beginning of launching a plant e-giving program that’s with heather, you, lando and i’ve got links to those two podcasts, of course, there’s. My video. I have to have my own personality and nuances. So my video, with the links to the those two podcasts where i was a guest, is that tony martignetti dot com live. 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Thanks to your station for carrying us affiliate affections that’s the liveliest or love the podcast pleasantries and the affiliate affections. Now let’s, go to darby, barca and your disaster recovery plan. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fifteen the non-profit technology conference were in day two. We’re in austin, texas, at the convention center and my guest is dar vivir ca she’s vice president of technology for lift a lefty and her workshop topic is avoiding disaster a practical guide for backup systems and disaster recovery planning. Dar welcome, thank you very much. Good to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you this day two we’re highlighting one swag item at ntc per for interview and, uh, i have a double chip biscotti from ah sputnik moment the hashtag is hashtag is sputnik smiles and i’m told that the glasses go with the biscotti, so this is essential. This is this interview’s swag moment. Thank you very much. Sputnik smiles and it goes into the goes into the swag collection. There it is. Okay, door. Um, we need to know some ah, little basic turn. Well, you know what? Before we even get into why is disaster recovery and the related and included back-up so i don’t know if it’s just for gotten ignored, not done well, what inspired the session is a organization i used to work for. We were required by auditors to do a disaster recovery plans. So when it came time for the annual audit, i got out the current disaster recovery plan and went all right, i’m going to go ahead and update this and when i discovered when i read the plan was there were servers, there were eight years old gone for the last eight years server and reading the planet was very clear that what the previous person had done was simply change the date and update the plan for auditors. And as i thought about it and talk to other people, i found that that actually happens a lot people it’s d r is sort of that thing they don’t have time for because no one ever thinks it’ll happen to them, so you push it off and you push it off, and you either just download the template, you know, a template off the internet, and you slap a date on it and basically fill it out just for the auditors. But a lot of organizations never actually think through their disaster recovery, they don’t get into the details, they don’t worry about it, and then when a disaster actually happens to them, they’re sort of stuck. You don’t have a plan that i don’t have a functioning crush on, they’ve never tried it out, so that was what inspired the session and as we dug into it. We we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view because disaster it cover, you know, there’s an entire industry, the deals with technology, disaster recovery. You can spend days on this topic, and obviously we didn’t have days. We had a ninety minute session, so we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view of the practical items you need to pay attention to if you’re not confident in your organisation’s d our plan, if you don’t have a d our plan or if you do and you really don’t, you know, you think it really needs an overhaul that sort of the top ten of items of what you should really be looking at when you’re dealing with disaster recovering backups. And we tried to give some several practical examples myself and the other speaker and andrew, who could not make it this morning of disasters we’ve had to deal with as well as other well known ones. Yeah, okay, do we need some basic language? Miree before we get into the d r disaster recovery topic short jr is one of them. Disaster recovers, often referred to his d r it’s often spoken about in terms of business continuity or bc, which is sort of the larger plan for the entire organisation should’ve disaster strike there’s the others very d are specific things such as our poet recovery point objective that we could talk about your rto, which is recovery time objective there’s very specific language like that for disasters. It’s usually just revert to de ours. So whenever we say d arts disaster recovery okay, we’ll see if we get into those eyes and i could explain to ms wick. Okay, um, all right? So clearly we should have a disaster recovery written, just recovery plan. Even if we’re an organization that small enough that doesn’t have an annual audit, we still should have something in place. Yes. Okay. What belongs in our day? Our plan top ten things. You need a contact list for your team. So if you have a top ten of the d r i do of what should your plan d our plan? You know, it could be anything from a five page outline that just covers the basics. And in in our sessions slides, which i’ve posted in the ntc library gives it some good resource is for doing andy. Our plan, or it could be a, you know, a huge hundred page document, it covers absolutely every aspect of business continuity or something in between it’s going very by organization, and the reality is, if you’re a small organisation with a small team, you might only be able to do the five page outline but that’s better than nothing that’s better than no d our plan or a d r plan that realistically hasn’t been updated in the last ten years, but i would say, you know, the top ten you really should have in your day. Our plan is number one, a contact list for your team members. What is the contact for your team, folks, your business continuity folks, if you normally would get that out of your email and you’re in a disastrous situation, you know you can’t get to your email or, you know, like we’re ever going through, and i want listeners to know that she’s doing this without notes, i it seems very confident that she’s got the hopefully i’ve ever altum in-kind get seven out of seven or eight ten will be ecstatic, but so continue. Oh, but i want to say yeah, as we’re going through, consider two organizations that may not have someone devoted to it. Correct, that is, our listeners are small and midsize non-profits right? They very, very well just all be outsourced or it falls on the executive director’s desk. Excellent point. Would you cover that in the session? So t finish at the top ten contactless three team members contact list for your vendors, a call tree and some sort of communications. How do you tell your organization in your members that you’ve had a disaster? Either your servers have gone down your parts of burst and your communications air underwater? How do you do that? What is your network look like? So? Network diagram process outline how you’re actually going to do your disaster recovery a timeline? How long do you expect these activities to take before you? Khun b live again, a list of systems and applications that you’re going to recover if you’re a large enough or gore, you can afford a hot site what’s called a hot or warm site where you can immediately switch over two other equipment. You know information about that, you’d need that to start your recovery and then also information about your backups. You know, who’s got your back ups? What system are you using? How do you, you know? Get those back. So those air sort of like the top ten things or d our plan should have. Alright, let’s dive intothe process. Ok a bit, because that intrigues me. And hopefully listeners. I think so. I think i have a fare beat on what’s. Interesting. I hope i do. Um, yeah. What? How do we start to think about what our dear process should be? First, you have to think about what all could be a disaster for your organization. A lot of people think about things, you know, earthquakes, hurricane, sandy, hurricane katrina. But it could also be water pipes bursting in your building. That is one of the most common thing. If your server is not properly protected, which a lot aren’t a lot of stuck in closets. Ah, dripping pipe water. We call those water events and that seems to be the most common thing departments encounter is leaking pipes in the building or some sort of a flooding situation. But it could also be an elektronik. Disasters such i’ve worked at an organization that underwent what’s called a ddos attack, which is a distributed denial of service. It took out our entire web presence because malicious hacker hacker went after that’s where there’s millions of right the network and they just flood your network seconds you’re overloaded and yeah, and that’s a disaster situations. So one, why would they attack like that? Why wasn’t non-profit attack malicious? The cp dot organ are attacked out with avon marchenese travon martin decision. Folks attacked our our petition site way. We were able to get it back online, but for a couple of hours. Yeah, we were off line. And that could be considered a disaster situation. For sure. Yeah. How do you help us think through what potential disasters are not even identify them all i think about what could affect your or what you wear. You vulnerable? Some of the things we talked about in the session and we’ll think about it. How would you get back online if the’s various things happen to you are your are your services sort of in the cloud? Do you have servers on site and start there when thinking about your process is what would you have to recover if these various scenarios affected you or with these various scenarios. Scenarios affect you if your website is completely outsourced to a vendor that has de dos protection. Okay, that’s, not a scenario you have to worry about so kind of analyze it and every organs going to be different. You know, if you live on the west coast, you’re probably concerned more about earthquakes than other regions. So it’s it’s going to vary for each organization, what sort of disaster you’re going to be worried about? And then you start getting down into the practical nuts and bolts in terms of who are your disaster recovery people, who’s your team, if you’re really small lorry, that might just be you or as you mentioned before, if you’re using outsourced, manage service provider and your vendors responsible for that, make sure your vendor has a d our plan for you. Ah lot of folks just assume your vendors taking care of that, but when it comes right down to it, do they actually have d our experience? Can they recover your items? Actually sit down and have that conversation? Because so many of the small org’s as you pointed out, do youse outsourced thes days and there’s there’s a lot of manage service providers that specialize in non-profit, but you need to have that conversation. Don’t wait till you’re under a disaster scenario to discover that groups they don’t actually have that experience have that conversation ahead of time. What else belongs in our process? Outline in your process latto outline if you’ve got a another site either a cold, a warmer, hot site or if your stuff is based in the cloud, where would you recover to the hot side is some place you go to drink cold water or hot? Sure, a cold site would be where you’ve got another location let’s say you have a dozen servers at your location, and in the case of, you know, your building being inaccessible or underwater. A cold site would be where you’ve got another location you could go to, but you don’t really have any equipment stage there, but it is another location you can begin operations out if that’s a cold sight there’s nothing ready to go, but you’ve got a sight a warm site would be where you sort of have a skeletal equipment there it’s far less capacity than you’re currently at, but you’ve got something there it’s not live, but you got stuff ready to go that you can restore to and get going. And a hot site is where you can flip over immediately. Your live replicating to somewhere else, it’s ready to go? It might not be full capacity, so it might not have, you know, full blown data line size that you’re used to might not have your full range of service, but it is live and you could switch over near instantaneously. That’s a hot site, ok, eso you’d want that in your process, and you’re going to want to think about what are you restoring and that’s where we get into the backups? What comes first and that’s, where you start getting into terms such as recovery point, objective and recovery time objective those air to very common d our terms recovery time is how far back are you recovering, too? And what does that mean for each system? So if it’s your donorsearch system that’s probably fairly critical, you want a recent restore of that? If it’s a system that doesn’t change very much, maybe a week ago restores okay for that and sorry that’s recovery point objective recovery time objective is how long does it take you to get back online after a disaster? You know, ifyou’ve got to download your data from an external source. Has anyone thought about how long that’s going to take you to get the data back? Is it going to take you fifteen hours or three days? So it’s in a lot of folks don’t think about that ahead of time, they just go oh, you know, we’ll we’ll pull it back down if we have a disaster, but they don’t think about instead of their nice normal data communications, they’re going to be on a tiny d s l line trying to pull down one hundred fifty gigs of information and it’s going to take a week to get it back down. I have to say you’re very good about explaining terms and thank you, proper radio. We have jargon jail? Yes, we try not teo transcend. You haven’t transgressed cause your immediate about explaining exactly what recovery point river and recovery time objectives are. It could be very confusing, you know, if you don’t understand the terms in tech, you can be confusing what folks are talking about, and that was one of the the focus is of our station session is making it less confusing and being very practical, practical about what you can or cannot do. And if folks go and look at our slides, they’ll see on several of the items we did a good, better best, and we tried to talk about that all throughout the session because we realized again for a small ork or, you know, even a large order that just doesn’t have the resources to devote to it. You might not be able to do best practice, but you could at least try a good practice that would be better than nothing. And then so we do a good, better best for each each type of thing like what does a good d our plan look like? Versace best day our plan and at least try and get to that good, because at least you’ll have something and it could be a continuum where you try and improve it along the way. But you’ve got to start somewhere it’s better than just ignoring it, which is what happens. At a lot of places. Got to take a break. Tell us credit card and payment processing. You know these people check out the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s that will start to explain to you the long tail of revenue that you can earn from. Tell us when you get companies to look att tello’s. Let tell us look at their processing fees. Then they switch to tell us you get fifty percent of the revenue forever. Tony dahna slash tony. Tell us now back to your disaster recovery plan with dar do we need to prioritize what what’s mission critical. And, yes, we can work with out for a time. Yes. How do we determine that? Definitely. We talk about that in terms of its not just a knight each decision either because we may think that the emails the most critical thing out there, but development may see the donor system as the most critical out there program might think that the case management system is the most critical out there. So you finance wants their account. They want their accounting system up. Obviously you’ve got to have an order in which you bring these things up. You’re probably not gonna have enough staff for bandwith or, you know, equipment to bring everything back online, so there needs to be and hopefully your executive team would be involved in deciding for the organization what is most critical in what order are you going to bring those things up? And that needs to be part of your d r plan? Because otherwise, if you’re in a disaster scenario, you’re not going to know where to start and there’s going to be a lot of disagreement of who starts where so you guys need to decide on the order, okay, we still have a few minutes left, but what more can we say about d r and related back-up that’s not going to wait till i’m back up because i think we could do a little bit in terms of d r i would say the key points on backups are check them because a lot of time, yes, monthly or quarterly, at least is anyone looking at your back-up back-up work-life one of the scenarios that we talked about that actually happened to my co speaker, andrew, was that their server room flooded and it hit their razor’s edge server, which is their entire c, m, s, c r, e, m and donorsearch system, and they thought it was backing up, but no one had actually check the backups in the last two months, and it was on, and it was not s o in terms of back-up just typical, you know, pay attention to the maintenance. What do you backing up? Has anyone checked it? And again, if you’re using a manage service provider, make sure if they’re responsible for for looking at your backups of managing them, make sure they’re doing that, you know, double check and make sure that they understand that your backups are critical and they can’t just ignore the alerts about your backups. You know, you don’t want to be in the unpleasant situation of three of our servers just got flooded. We need the data and discover nobody was backing it up. It ain’t exactly okay. All right. Anything else? You wanna leave people about back-up before we go to the broader diar? No, i think that’s. Good for those were the highlights for it. All right. So back to the disaster recovery. What more can we say about that. There are going to be a lot of watches if you’re in a large d our situation and so one of things we stress is one getting down into the details of your d our plan before disaster hits, you see, if you’ve never thought about how you’re actually going to do the restores air, actually, how you’re going to be rebuild those servers, you need two ahead of time. A lot of folks never practice have a fire drill. I hate fire drill, but and you don’t have a live fire drills in this case, it might be a live fire drill. You don’t want to have that, so you should make some effort to practice, even if it’s just something small, you know, trying to restore one server. I mentioned in this session that i was put in a situation years ago at johns hopkins university, where we were required to have verification of live tr practice. So i was put in a room that had a table, a telephone, a server, and we were carrying two laptops, and we couldn’t come out of the room, and so we had completely restored our domain. We had a set. Of backups on the thumb drive and added the second laptop to that domain improve that we had restored the domain, and an independent person that was not connected to our department was monitoring to make sure we had done it and we had to prove it, and that was an eye opening experience is as experienced as i was doing that i’d never done it live, and it took me three tries to do it so that’s, right? Encourage folks to really try and practice this stuff ahead of time and get down into the you know, the weeds on there on their d our planet on also to think about it. You weren’t fired because way, john no, no, no. I actually like too much john soft. No, we did complete it within the time frame, but we were a little startled when we discovered that we thought we knew how to do it first time out. And we kept making little mistakes. There were two of us and they’re doing it. And we were surprised ourselves that we thought, oh, of course we know this. This is not a problem, but no, we were making little mistakes. Because we didn’t have the documentation down, a specific is it needed to be, and so that was a very eye opening experience. There’s a couple of their d r gotchas we talked about, which is crossed, people don’t think about the cost ahead of time. How much is going to cost to get you that data? Back in the instance of my co presenter who had the damaged drives, they weren’t expecting a near ten thousand dollars cost to recover those drives, but that’s what happened when they didn’t have the backups? They had to take those hard drives to a data recovery place, and the price tag was nearly ten thousand dollars. Dealing with insurance is another big one that people don’t think about having to account for all of the equipment that was lost, and dealing with that insurance morass often gets dumped on the auntie department in a small organization. There’s not, you know, a legal department that’s going to deal with that it’s going to be you so to, you know, kind of talk to your insurance provider ahead of time and see what all you have to deal with in a disaster situation, so you don’t get an unpleasant surprise if you’re ever, in one a cz well, on the insurance topic, just are you covered? Exactly what what, exactly, is your equipment covered, and what do you have to do with that? In terms of accounting for it, if you suffer a disaster and you know the gooch is, we get so a couple of minutes, if if oh, about conscious. Trying to think about somebody we don’t hold back on provoc video, i think some of the other ones that we covered in their thick wit mint again to the cost, how much is it going to cost you? Two gets new equipment and did you account for that when you were doing your d our plan and a time to recover? A lot of folks don’t understand how long it may take them to do a recovery and also deciding what is important and what is not important, not just in terms of what should be restored in what order, but in terms of practical things, do you really need to restore your domain? Er, or could you just start over from scratch if your domain only contains maybe fifty accounts and doesn’t have any associated servers faster for you to just start over and just recreate the domain immediately? Especially if a lot of your emails in office three, sixty five or google maps, you could reconnect it very quickly. So, you know, thinking about more practical gotsch is like that that you should think about have time, you know, obviously it’s that’s the best practice to think? Of all these details, and he realized folks may not be able to, so we provided someone sheets and some samples of them of just quick, yes or no questions and thinking this through and things to think about and where will we that is not notice provoc radio has a professional sound i don’t know about ntcdinosaur ten, but that was a way over there. They’re on their own. They can come to us for expertise if they if they need to. But, uh uh, now i messed myself up because i ask you about something. What were you just talking about? How much? How long will actually take you to recover things? And whether or not you should practically skipped recovering something because it might be faster to rebuild it. Okay, i have a follow up to that my smart ass humor, maybe lose it. All right, so why did you leave us with one take away? Dror back-up the session was a little bit misnamed because technically, you’re not going to avoid a disaster you really can’t in many cases, you’re not gonna avoid the flood. You’re not going to avoid the earthquake if you’re in that. Region so you need to plan on how to deal with it. So it’s more like avoiding avoiding your d are becoming the disaster because you’re not going to avoid the disaster itself, so you might as well plan for it. Outstanding. Thank you very much. Door. Thank you much. Darby america vice president of technology for lift. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fifteen. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Next week date your donor’s returns with jonah helper. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio wagner c p a’s guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tony dot m a slash tony tell us our creative producers claire meyerhoff family boots is the line producer show social media is by sirs and chavez and this great music is by scott stein with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the odd. They’re ninety five percent go out and be great. Kayman you’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentiality tune in every tuesday line to ten eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c. Me, are you feeling unhappy with your body, shape or size? Ever feel out of control with food? 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Nonprofit Radio for March 2, 2018: Your Messaging Campaigns & Are You Cheating At Social?

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Michael Sabat: Your Messaging Campaigns

We’re on our phones all day. Messaging is there, too, in multiple forms. How do you exploit messaging as a marketing channel? Michael Sabat with @mssg shows you the way.

 

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Are You Cheating At Social?

Amy Sample Ward

Buying likes. Buying followers. Buying emails. Buying ads. Buying content. Are those cheating in the social networks? Do the cheaters win? Our social media contributor and the CEO of NTEN shepherds you. She’s Amy Sample Ward.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d grow a blepharoplasty aroma if i opened my eyes to see that you missed today’s show your messaging campaigns. We’re on our phones all day messaging is there, too, in multiple forms how do you exploit messaging as a marketing channel? Michael sabat with that message shows you the way are you cheating at social buy-in likes buying followers buy-in emails, buying ads buy-in content are those cheating in the social networks to the cheaters? Win our social media contributor and the ceo of inten shepherds you she’s amy sample ward tony steak too. You got us out of sixty nine, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing to radio by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers with your cps dot com and tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome michael sabat to the show. He has worked in the messaging space for a decade, he started working with sms campaigns in two thousand eight at mobile commons, he was there first account manager and helped hundreds of organizations launch thousands of sms campaigns. Recently, he started at message, a platform that helps digital directors and digital marketers use facebook messenger for marketing and communications outcomes. He hosts a podcast called the chat bubble about messaging he’s at message at msg and that at message dot com, you’ll find his podcast at the chat bubble dot com he’s michael sabat welcome to the show, michael. Hey, tony, thanks for having me. My pleasure. Um let’s. See, first i got i got, uh i didn’t think to admonish. And i got to mention having your company name start with the at sign it’s a little it’s. A little tough. When when i’m introducing you, you’re at message at ssg and at at message dot com. You comfortable people get that? Okay, totally tricky. But everybody asked me to repeat it. And so it really sinks into there wherever you store memories in your brain. Yeah. So at symbol msg is our logo and that’s the name of the company and the domain is a t m s. G so really tricky for domains really tricky for twitter, but it’s been working so far, okay? I mean, you know, you went into this consciously. I know that i i, um okay, i i didn’t let’s move on. Okay? Everybody knows that the only other thing humane is at mrs dot. Com that’s. Important? Yeah. Good. Yeah. The big push for our company is yeah, we’re sort of moving beyond web pages. Right? And so i’m sort of okay if the girls are a little tricky because we’re saying messaging is the new space no longer the page, but but we’ll get into that. Uh, well, let’s, get to that right now. Okay. Were you, uh, you’re a futurist. We’re moving beyond websites. I’m absolutely a futurist. Okay? Yeah. You know, i major push the major thesis behind at message. Is that the web page which is made up of access times? Why? Right space it’s a page like a piece of paper. What the web has been for the last twenty five years. But as we move everybody being on their phone, you lose that x times. Why? So we go from these incredible twenty seven inch max. Where they’re designing web pages and landscape views. And when people are viewing those, they’re viewing it on a four point nine or a five point five inch phone. And so you actually lose the essence of what is a page, and we are literally squeezing pages onto the phone, okay? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so i’m happy to start here, so but what about, you know, when pages that are now ubiquitous mobile optimized? Aren’t we getting the best? I guess you would say we get the best we can, but it’s not mobile native, is that it? Yeah. I mean, i was joking somebody yesterday and i said that the mobile optimized web page is the horseless carriage of our century. Meaning yes, you can, like squeeze it and you can’t force it by mobile optimized courses than any digital marketer out there will tell you that there mobile page that they’ve made responsive and mobile optimized one hundred times is still converting visitors at one third toe one half a cz well as the desktop version of that same exact page and that’s the high end. So it is just harder to convert somebody whether it’s an e mail acquisition a petition for a donation on a mobile web page. Interesting. Okay, i did introduce us a futurist. I’m glad. You know, i’m glad you self identify as a futurist because i didn’t i didn’t include that. Um okay, let’s. All right. We’re going to come back to this, then. Let’s, let’s, start with fresh out this little x y what do you mean, the x y space? Yeah, just like a graph. Right? When you look at a tv or a computer screen, you are looking at two dimensional space, right? Access times. Why access? And that gives you the size of the page, the number of pixels. And so when your pages, you’re building it for basically probably a math book, laptop, right, and those dimensions. And so you have these nice landscape pictures in all of this is in vogue, right? If you look at a modern website, you have the hero image and you know, you’re scrolling and it’s beautiful as you’re scrolling, you don’t do any of that stuff on the phone like the action’s on the phone is a different type of squirrel, right? It’s happening with your finger on and swiping. And messaging are the key actions on the phone and but specifically back to the space you have, you know, however, many pixels on the laptop and that’s where you’re designing pages for and then you have many, many less pixels on the phone, you just lose the page you literally, like, lose seventy percent of what you’ve built, and you have to squeeze it into the phone. And so of course, it’s not going to perform is well when you’re losing seventy percent of what you built, literally the coordinates, the extends life space and your belief is that supplanting that is the is mobile phone native messaging. Yeah, exactly. You know, i think that the the channels that have worked in the desktop era which we are leaving and going into the mobile era, right, the new device, the new mobile devices primary for personal, not necessarily forward, but for personal you’re using your phone for more things now and yes, of the channels that worked in the desktop era. Specifically, email and pages do not work as well in the mobile era and their staff out the right people behave differently when they open your email on their phone and it’s. Not better than when they open your email on their desktop. People behave differently when they arrive at your website on their phone and it’s worse than when they arrived in the best up. And so, as we move forward, not only would like more phones, but whatever comes next in virtual reality or wherever that new device news space is. Paige is an email i think are going to move into the background on messaging will be the channel that becomes more primary. A cz we move mohr mobile and whatever comes next. Okay, that is perfect. We have take our first break. That’s. A perfect sort of tease, tio. What will pick up messaging becoming? Ah, primary channel. I gotta take this break. Michael, pursuing their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. Here is a romp through the table of contents. Where you taking your donor’s? Three common stewardship stumbling blocks consider the ideal donor experience. Immersive digital experiences making the donor experience a top priority. Next steps. You get this paper, you know, pursuant their data, rich and it’s going to be based on their research, helping you in your stewardship, it’s. Demystifying the donor journey it’s at tony dot m a slash pursuant radio. Now, let’s, go back to michael and your message in campaigns. Okay, sort of consistent let’s pick up where we were. Messaging is going to become the primary channel, is it? Is it already sort of that’s? Another interesting angle on this similar topic is it is already your primary channel. Yeah, personal communication, because we’re on our fund-raising gle day. Yeah, i mean, look, if when i need to tell my wife something or my parents or my friends, i don’t send them an e mail, and i usually don’t call although that’s also on the phone, but messaging is the way you do that, and so we see this, like, break where when you’re at work, you’re on your computer, you’re doing emails, you’re writing email, blast and all of that. When you’re doing something personal, you’re doing it via messaging and or on your phone, and so when you start to take this to howl, non-profit should be thinking about this four people let’s say, for an animal, you know, writes animal welfare non-profit sure, like when people become a supporter of this organization. It’s your work if you work at the non-profit to get people to be supporters and email makes sense. But do you want the people supporting the organization, or do people that support the organization do it because it’s personal to them and the answer is yes, right? Like people donate people get involved, people volunteer people share because they personally care about whatever issue the non-profits focused on and so it’s just a line’s better if you are now talking to something, talking to people on their personal channel when it’s an issue that’s personal to them, okay, i don’t think non-profits are are thinking this way using messaging assed communication channel as a campaign channel. For the most part, i mean, i know you do it, you do a lot of campaigns. I’m not saying it’s nowhere, but, um, we’re trying to shift some thinking here. Um, what how do you how do you characterize messaging the campaign? What are the elements of it that that make it our next primary channel? Yeah, so so kind of the nuts and bolts are that it is ubiquitous, so their arm or monthly active users off the top for messaging app. Then there are monthly active users of the email in the world. Okay, what are the top floor? I don’t know. Hold on. Name the name the top for messaging aps a man putting me on the spot facebook messenger, whatsapp we chat and probably line or kick. Okay, i guess maybe i message although i don’t think they’re coming i message in that stat that’s another okay, okay. I’m not, you know your stuff. I’ll tap your head. You know your way. Gotta shift. We got shit thinking. Okay, so more you call them monthly active users. This is how you’re measuring this is your measure. Well, these air just saying, like, look, the channel is here it’s not, you know, if you were starting your email list in two thousand, you would look at the numbers and you would say, like, you know, there’s many less people emailing than are answering their phone or that are receiving mail. But we’re already at a place where messaging is extremely ubiquitous, the people have arrived on this channel already? Yeah, so yes, it’s new but we don’t have to wait for everybody to show up. We just have to find the right use cases. Okay, now i made you diverge, but we’ll get back to it. So you were you were comparing the, uh the the monthly active users among the four top messaging apse with other communications channel. So please go ahead. Yeah, so? So messaging is kind of the biggest sort of like communication channel out there. It’s also the newest, with the other channels being things like email and phone calls and direct mail. But, you know, talking about the nuts and bolts of the channel messaging messages generally get to people very quickly. We can tell with facebook messenger at least, you know, if people open if people read their messages and the defining characteristic of messaging is that people will respond to it like, literally respond to it and that’s new, indifferent, because when an organization sends out an email, people might clear khun taken action on a web forum. But no one ever responds to an email blast like that. It just doesn’t even make sense, so with this defining characteristic of people opening the messages, people reading them quickly quickly and responding that opens messaging up to address used cases, his existing use cases in a different way for organization. I see this in my personal experience, which is why i wanted to bring this tio our listeners, you know, you’re right. My friends send me more text messages now than they did a year ago. Is it used to be maurey male, based across friends, arranging dinners, whatever on dh. Now there’s more text messages and you respond quickly to a text, then you due to an e mail, which makes me think, is there going to be another? I’m not i don’t want to kill your killers, but what is gonna be another more mohr? Um, hyre hyre responsive radio channel? Yeah, it’s gonna be another one after texting? Oh, absolutely right for sure. We’ve had mail now. Direct mail for a few thousand years. Maybe we have a phone call since harada two years. We’ve had email now for twenty five years and we’ve had messaging for, you know, about ten years that will absolutely because of something coming next, but i think that will kind of push maybe direct mail out, not messaging. Okay, okay. Um, yeah, this is all of this is all very eventually. All right. So if we wanted, if we’re in a small midsize non-profit now, let’s, bring it down to getting more practical. What? What purposes might we in engaged? Messaging teo accomplish for us? What goals? Yeah, so? So, first off, there are a few different messaging channels, the two available to non-profits right now, our sms and then facebook messenger. And they’re slightly different, but similar. Okay, sametz we got a defined term because i’ll put you in jog in jail if you don’t sms that’s. Just simple that’s, right, shorts? There was a safe. A short message, something short messaging service. Thank you. Okay, so, that’s, just your right. That’s your day to day text message. Okay, sms. Remember, be careful. Jog in jail. But it had to slap you in there. Okay, go ahead. Cool. I didn’t. I thought that got out of the jargon jail last year, but i got it. I got to check the calendar again. Eso text messaging. And then, you know, the other channel messaging channel available to non-profits or or anybody to build upon his facebook messenger. And so that is a messaging app that can go on any phone and instead of the technical terms are not relevant. But instead of it going through the carrier, it goes over the internet, okay? And so facebook now, anybody that has facebook messenger on their phone, you can essentially send them a text message, you know, phone to phone over the internet. Okay? And what? White folk, eh? So those those air to most popular tools available to non-profit what might we use this for? What? What? What kind of campaign might we create? Go ahead, get number one use case is acquisition new donors getting new donors, getting new or volunteers or maybe not volunteermatch not donors, but llewelyn, new constituents. Okay. And data. What kind of what kind of data could we hit? What kind of data can we collect through this? Any data the person responds to, similar to a web form, so you can ask the user to respond with their email address or their phone number. You know, if you’re not using sms or their address or any data you want to collect that person will respond to and the response rates over messaging are incredibly high generally like this is a big range, but generally from anywhere between forty percent and eighty percent of the people that start a conversation you asked them for their email will respond with that email address. Okay, um right, who would you be? Okay, so if this is an acquisition campaign, how would you acquire the i don’t know what you need for facebook messages are user i ds or text for sms durney phone numbers. How would you how would you acquire the people toe to send your messaging, too? Yes. So people are always going to message in first, just like people will go to a girl for first before you can ask them for their email in a web form. People are always going to message in first, and this is key distinction between sms and facebook messenger with sms. It works really well to incorporate into media. So aura on event so you stand up on stage and you say, take out your phone and for example, donate to the red cross text haiti to nine o nine, nine, nine and you connect from media from ah, like real world call to action anywhere you could say. Take out your phone type in this number and send us a message that’s how sms works. Okay, look, facebook messenger. We can come back, but with facebook messenger, you can link into the conversations and that’s the distinction. So from an ad from a facebook ad, you treyz goodcompany into a conversation instead of a landing page. Or you could link somebody from any link on the web into a conversation instead of landing base. Okay, so you can from facebook messenger. All right, all right. Um, so you get you have to you’re asking however you’re doing it on the sms side. You’re asking someone to text you first. Yeah, right. Whether it’s in an event or a printed piece or whatever you’re asking for them to take the action first. Is that right, it’s always the case for anything. A messenger you’re saying, click here. So go here to messaging or message us at this number. Okay. Okay. All right. So that was for acquisition. What? What other goals might we have for our our new messaging campaign? Yes. Number one acquisition. And collecting data and data. Yes, number two is direct engagement, so messaging lends itself to kaleb lee and easily be able to open up one on one chats with people. So someone messages in, and i can tell you my theory to this, although other vendors and other systems might have different theories. But someone messages in and we kind of automata scrip. So someone messages in and we say thanks for messaging us. Tell us your email and then tell us your zip code and tell us how much you want to donate. And as people are responding to our messages with their email and there’s a code, we’re saving it just like a web form. But with us, if someone goes off script, so we say, how much do you want to donate? And this happens all the time. How much do you want to donate? And someone responds, i don’t want to donate online where can i mail a check? Or i want to call and talk to somebody. What number did i call when someone responds off script? So we’re looking for that dollar amount and they reply with a question yes, we gonna pull that into another part of the system. And and someone can respond one on one and open a one on one chat with that person. And so the second case here is being able to engage directly in a two way conversation. A cz part of this sort of marketing funnel part of the data collection process. So, so implicit and all this is there’s a there’s a back end that is ah, script back and forth that that is, that is automated. Until some i understand, until somebody goes off script and then they get funneled a different direction. But but if there’s a back end to this that’s all automated carrying on carrying on the conversation with the the new constituent yeah. That’s what any of the tools do? Yes. You sort of need that to be ableto scale it more than just a few people live conversation. Okay. Tool automated conversation. Ok, so there are tools. They’re too old to do that. There are. Okay. Um, what are some of those tools? Can we going name a couple yet? Yes. A great. So, you know, i’m my company of that message. We oughta make these conversations over. Facebook messenger there go. My former company is mobile commons and they automate conversations over sms and they’ve been acquired and they work with a bunch of brands now meeting a bunch of venders all under the kind of software brand there there, there’s some agencies that help people do this. And so one agency would be revolution messaging maurine the strictly political space, but they helped design the campaign, and then one of the newer vendors on the scene works a little differently, but they’re called hustle or relay or ground game. All of these platforms open up peer-to-peer messaging overact, sametz and that’s less automated that’s, a hybrid between automated conversations and one on one conversations and the quick version. There are whole podcast all by themselves, but the quick version is that you need an operator with a peer-to-peer so you need someone to actually send those messages, but they’re software leading that operator through the conversation, depending on how the organisation set it up. Now why your company have you chosen to do facebook messaging and not sms? Yeah, so you know the first one first, one twenty minutes in first work first decent question, alright. I’m learning i’m learning. I’m trained above. Definitely every question i know toe like every good question. There you go. So you just like scripted. I see you like a nice ex scripted. No matter what my question was going to be, you’re going to see a good question. All right? You think this is a live person does? All right. All right. I’ll catch you up. I’ll trip you up. All right, now i’m now i’m on a mission now. I don’t do that to guest. I do it to my wife, but not my guest. Go ahead. Why has a wife facebook messenger and not sms for at message your company. So the way i see it is we are lift no, michael sabat my goal. Sam hello, there we are. Ok, you’re back. We’re ok. Yeah, you cut out so start you start your own channel. So sms had been the on ly messaging channel for the last decade. Yes, but within the last two years, it’s clear that there are going to be a whole bunch of new messaging aps opening up facebook messenger, whatsapp message. All of these are opening up so that organizations can use them, and i think we’ll look back in five years and we’ll say, like, oh, sms was the first messaging channel the same way that hotmail was the first email service, but now it’s become its own category and messaging channels will differ, but they’ll all have their basic best practices the same way that email differs. Whether you’re sending to a well or gmail, maybe, but but they all have their own, like email best practices, and so i wanted to build on and kind of the new stuff coming because it is the most exciting. All right? Um, now what about age? I have not? I’m an outlier, i presume. Based on our conversation, i have not downloaded the facebook messenger app, do we my representative of people fifty five and over? Or am i an outlier even in my age? And you don’t have to worry about age if you want to do ah messaging campaign? Yes, a messaging is actually weird. It what with text messaging? We’re kind of the point where everybody has it, right? If you have a phone? Yes, sure, really, really ubiquitous, both young and old facebook messenger does not do that well with young kids. So you know, up to the age of twenty but what’s surprising is while you’re at work, you’re emailing, right. So while you’re working age, you really are in the email. But as you retire, you stop emailing and you do mohr messaging, whether it’s with the grandkids or whoever, you’re just not going to your desktop computer on your desk every day or your laptop and so messaging it’s pretty ubiquitous, no matter what age group. But we definitely see a bump again. Maur messaging, happy eating with people in their sixties, interesting and my voice is broke like i’m fourteen, but but peter, right, yeah, what did you say? Peter brady, peter brady and i was like, greg, i kind of liked greg, but i guess he was. I was too old for his voice to crack. Well, i am two, fifty. What am i now? Fifty, fifty five, fifty six, fifty six. Okay. That’s. Very interesting about retirement. Yeah, mohr messaging less, uh, less email, right? But you’re spending less time on your desktop, but the phone is always on your belt or in your pocket. All right? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. Michael, maybe should make this a full hour, but i’m certainly not gonna squeeze out amy sample ward. Maybe we have you back and continue this, but men and a half left. What do you what do you want to leave people with? Please? Yes. So i say the last use cases, the big cases acquisition. Right. So collecting data from people over these message and channels direct engagement and then the last one of the activation. So as people are messaging in, they are subscribing similar to when someone gives you their email there subscribing and seeking then follow up on this channel where the person has already engaged and tell them news alerts. Tell them about events. Get them to take action. Stuff like that that’s the big connect sustaining pay off as and in terms of, like, building this list. Okay, um that’s it. I’m super excited to be opening for amy sample ward. I mean, this is going to be a huge episode, she’s, she’s, you know, she’s amazing gas. So congrats on that. I’m excited to be part of it. Oh, she’s, awesome! Yeah, she’s, she’s on every month. Yes. Are you going to the non-profit technology conference? Now i put you on this. Will. You are. I’ll see you there. We’re gonna have a booth. Look for us in booth three. Now, provoc radio’s going to their booth. Number three. Oh five. Great. Okay, michael sabat, orleans, right. Uh, i hope so. I’m going to new orleans. I hope you are too that’s, where the conference is, okay, don’t go to washington. Michael sabat. You’ll find him at s s g, and the company is a tms sg dot com. Michael, thank you so much. Thank you. Needs a break. That is for wagner. Cps. They go beyond the numbers, and i suggest you go beyond the numbers with them by talking to you. Eat each tomb. Who’s. Been on the show twice. Very smart guy. Very nice guy. Low pressure. But check out the website first. You know, check out the bona fide. These make sure that you’re satisfied. You know, you look the clients, etcetera. They do the work you need. I mean there’s. Cps forgot. Take everybody knows what you do. But, you know, you gotta satisfy yourself. Then pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat weinger cpas. Dot com. They go beyond the numbers. Now, time for tony’s. Take two and i need to thank you for pulling us out of sixty nine, sixty nine itunes ratings. Now, i don’t check these things very often. Any sample ward taught me? I really did learns from her that you know, that’s. A vanity metric. How many readings you have fans, etcetera. But i do look from time to time not not gonna lie your butt like every couple months. And for a long time, i may have it was every six months. Or maybe even a year. It was a long time you were at sixty nine readings, and i didn’t say anything about it. I never said please, somebody get us out of sixty nine. I did not plead. I did not make an issue of it. But then i went back a few weeks ago and i see that we got seventy five ratings. So my thanks to the people who pulled us. The six people, six listeners who pulled us out of sixty nine. I guess the one pulled us out of sixty nine, and then the others piled on. But i’m grateful to all six because that’s what i saw, i saw it go from sixty nine, seventy five. So thank you to those listeners who yanked us out of sixty nine. And, of course, there’s a video on this entire subject on you will find that at tony martignetti dot com i shouted from my gym, so i’m i’m pumped up as as a pumped up is that could be it’s, actually, probably more like a a limp linguine. Oh, you know what language? No, his right lung guerrino is a single strand of linguini. So if you’re not too hungry, you know? Just order a linguine o and you’ll get one piece of linguini or a spaghetti o or rigatoni. No, you’ll just get one, you know, little sample sample size. Um, but if you’re hungry, you know, then get the whole plate order linguini or spaghetti, etcetera. So the video was that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two now we got to live. Listen, love and there’s a time we got let’s start abroad. Uh, osaka, japan live listen love to you, connie chua, mexico city, mexico witnessed artois, russia we can’t see the city, but we know that you’re there russia live with their love to you ottawa, canada bolivia abila iraq live listen loved all those foreign listeners on duff there’s more foreign listeners in germany gooden tug, france born i won’t know that’s bonem sabat now that wouldn’t be any good france live listen love to you tokyo is also with us in japan as well as osaka and rio de janeiro, brazil, brazil, one of wonderful that would be oh my god! Oh, opening gadot’s for brazil and bringing it domestic tampa, florida let’s see where else? Portland, oregon about that’s amy simple word, brooklyn, new york welcome, brooklyn multiple new york, new york voice cracked again new bern, north carolina welcome back, haven’t seen you for some time. New bern where’s, new brunswick where’s that was that new brunswick, north, north brunswick, new jersey was annoying me. They would never identify themselves, but they were ubiquitous. New bern, north carolina welcome back live listener love to you kayman sample ward. You know who she is, but i have to give it a proper introduction anyway. She’s, our social media contributor and ceo of intend the non-profit technology network, her most recent court that book, so to change any time everywhere about online multi-channel engagement, you’ll find her at amy, sample, ward, dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward and antennas on ten is and tn dot or ge so many places you could find. Amy simple word welcome back. Thank you. You’re ubiquitous talk about messaging being ubiquitous, you’re ubiquitous. You are ok. Good to talk to you. Good to chat with you. How are you? Yeah, i’m doing pretty good where i think they’re really busy over here, you know, wednesday was the regular registration deadline before prices went up. So for the non-profit technology for the non-profits don’t come, you know so many books hundreds of folks registered just on wednesday, for example, the last man that busy time in the conferences oh, my gosh, it’s going to be here so soon? We’ve got shiping deadlines and print deadlines and everything else over here. I understand now that the hashtag of course is eighteen ntc no, how many people do expect toe? Eighteen, ninety? Si what do you think, it’s? Gonna look so pretty consistent with the last handful of years? Two thousand people all in one big room two thousand awesome. Yeah, i’ve decided non-profit radio was going to be there. We’re going to do right? I’m glad that you have decided that. Yes, usually we keep our business separate, but, you know, i’m melding today because i’m excited that it’s gonna work out. Okay. I am so let andrea and ellie no. Booth three. Oh, five. Um, i wanted i want two, three or five and not your name on it. Thank you. So non-profit metoo is gonna have your name on it when we get there. And the decorators it’s not there now, right? Well, i don’t expect, you know, six weeks in advance. I’m only you know, i can’t afford the furnishings for a couple days, so don’t don’t get you know, the furnishings, irv. Ok, anyway, yes, non-profit there’s going to be there? We’re going to do tons of interviews of of conference speakers and it’s going to be a wonderful day here, and you’re gonna have a hard, ah hard choice because, you know, you may have seen that we have the most breakout sessions this year than than we’ve ever had there’s over one hundred thirty sessions this year. Andi also means we have the most speakers because, as you know, one of our kind of guidelines and values is that people don’t have solo sessions because there’s way too much experience far too many organizations trying to do all of this work that only one person to have an opinion on something isn’t very representative of the community so way. Have over three hundred. Oh, i thought it was too. I thought i saw one hundred thirty sessions in two hundred speakers. No, three hundred, no, three hundred speakers. All right, well, i’ll have. To choose yes, we were selective hearing not provoc radio, but we’ll we’ll choose from one hundred thirty topics and, uh, you know, we’ll bring enough mikes we could share, too. I did one ntcdinosaur with five that we do find no four because i bribed three guest mikes and one person was standing. So two people shared a mike. It works, it works. We could do five or six. Yeah. Yeah, well, you probably don’t. You don’t have six person panels. I don’t thinkyou goes six, but no five. You could do force and five so we could do that. So yes, non-profit latto is going to be at ntc in new orleans. I hope michael sabat shows up in the right city. He wasn’t she didn’t seem too sure about where you’re going to be a friend, an extra postcards kruckel fremery knows where you’re going. Do you know michael before listening to him today? Do you know him well? I was trying to think about if we’ve been in the same place at the same time, because normally i say that i only know someone in five, like met them in person and all of that because otherwise, we know everybody because every, you know, where we’re all online, but i couldn’t remember if we actually have been in the same place at the same time, together or not. Okay, okay, well, you’ll meet with ntcdinosaur he’ll be there exactly let’s carry on to our topic cheating, cheating are cheating. So phrase gaming, i’m still against it and we can talk about that. But i’m cheating. It just sounds so bad. Well, i don’t know. We’re keeping in the social media context. I didn’t think i didn’t think gaming. I know you suggested gaming. Yeah, i went with cheating. Um in-kind left on it. Let’s admit to cheating. Alright, thank you very much. Oh, down that path. All right. So, um, let’s share your experience, your your wisdom and your opinion. Really on on buying stuff, buying everything from blogged content of youtube views. What does anymore think, amy simple would think about that? I’ve lost a toss about it on dh there. Probably not too sure you have ever mean you as you, tony, but you as everyone else is listening, ever listened into a conversation tony and i had. They’re probably not going to surprise. You what my feelings are, you know, i think we have to go back and i can already see the face that you’re making tony when i say this thing, that i probably say every single conversation that we have, which is we have to go back to our goals if your goal is to get people to go back to, you know what you were talking about the first half hour, if your goal is to get people teo, opt in, jump into a conversation and actually sign up for something or donate or add their names to your advocacy call, you know, whatever that is, buying random people probably bought is not going to get you closer, right? So if you’re just buying it for the number, hey, i would argue you have a really horrible goal weight. You should not be that list of life, their followers or whatever shouldn’t be your goal anyway on if you are just trying to fill, let me think about i often do this as a way of really kind of checking myself if i’m if i’m okay on the right things or i’m not focused on the right things and that is to turn your situation that you’re thinking about strategizing, whether this is buying facebook fans or twitter followers or instagram, polish, whatever, turn that into a in person scenario and check your same logic. So if we were in a room together, we were at the ntc right on, and our goal is to put on this awesome conference and have lots of content and have people engaging in making connections. But instead of focusing on that, we said, we want tohave three thousand people at the conference this year, right instead of always two thousand. So where does goingto go to the city of new orleans and say, we’re going to pay, you know, fifteen dollars an hour? Wait because this is our going. We’re gonna fill this commission’s, right? Because that’s our goal right way, a thousand people that are really there that are part of our community would say, who are all these people that i keep talking to you in the hallway that have no interest in what i’m doing that have nothing to do with non-profit work-life we then also create i’m going to save damage because well defined that and whatever different. Context is for the people who earnestly wanted to be part of our work, right? So focusing on that on that filling the filling, that big convention center focusing on that actually has maybe created more damage than had. We just had a smaller event on dso when i put it into a real world scenario, i think it’s so helpful because when we think about riel, world scenarios were much more likely to think about those people is people versus those people as followers or profile pictures or phone numbers, right when we’re when we’re focused on lee on the technology as this interchange in this transaction place, if we let ourselves kind of let go of the fact that these are committee members and they’re our friends and there are supporters, and i think using that real world scenario helps you remember, okay, if this is a room full of our people at our annual event, we would never do this. So why would we do it online now? The facebook the facebook facebook has changed. Facebook has changed its algorithm for for because it’s a new day yeah, right. Yes, bond, i’m hearing it. All right, companies. And non-profits or having trouble getting their content before there constituents there, their fans, the people was like their page in favor of in favor of family, family and friends stuff. Um, now i think it is i don’t think i’m being cynical saying that so that now companies and non-profits and organizations generally have toe pay for right for more outreach, brother reach no, you’re not being okay that’s that tried and true practice, right? Give people things for free so that they come to rely on them and feel they need them and then say, actually, you can’t have it for free anymore, but will you pay this amount? And people feel like they don’t have a choice, they have to pay it way don’t non-profits largely, any organization business on facebook has had lots of thing for free, you know? They got to have content that people could see in their new speed, and they could connect with folks and send messages and, you know, previously have much more, um, kind of dynamic options around events and messages and groups and all the rest and slowly all of that has been taken away, and i think at this point organisations really feel like, well, we have been used to getting to message. You’re having are. Our message is rather show up in the news feet of of our fans. So i guess now we do have to promote our posts, or even further than that, have facebook ads. And i think less about using facebook, then as a place where you are like you would with a promoted post, just trying to get your content scene and engaged with. And now that you’re using it, like big companies, to drive traffic to your website or into a facebook messenger, you know, a conversation or whatever it might be. Big, heavy sigh uh, listen, i mean, it’s kind of sad and frustrating his leg’s definitely, i think it’s a real challenge for organizations, teo feel like they are confident enough with there could management of the tool before you even think about how much time it takes. I mean, if you were to go to affirm that all that they do as they’re agency is, like a manage facebook ads and social media management for for clients, a you pay them a ton of money and they have a lot of expertise they’ve been doing this is all that they live and breathe, and it still takes them hours and hours, right? Like the idea that a small non-profit who already struggled to have the time to even log in to facebook one today, you know, and like, engage or like or reply to comments that now they’re they’re having to log in and then say, okay, well, hattaway, create an ad. How is that different than promoting this post? Because both of them are taking my credit card number? Like i said it’s, just so so disappointing that feels like it, it has established itself as this keep mathos massively, a hugely popular platform for people as individuals communicating with each other, and that should be a place where non-profits go to talk to people, right? I’m yet there are just so many, so many burdens or barriers to doing that. I know we got to take a break, stay with us, tell us credit card and payment processing. You know them. This is where you get the long tail of passive revenue because they are credit card processors. So you go to tony dot mm slash tony. Tell us you watch the video. It will explain the process of business is moving their credit card processing to tell us, and you will get fifty percent of everything tell us earns on all those transactions long revenue stream. Tony dahna i’m a slash tony. Tell us. Okay, any sample word, let’s? Keep talking about. Well, we brought in a little beyond cheating, but i, uh okay. So yes, facebook drew us in and drew non-profits in wave with e-giving they had e-giving for god’s sake on now, there. Now, now you gotta pay to get all this. All right, but but buying facebook likes is not the answer. No, it’s not going to be the answer, because buying the likes whether you’re buying likes on your content or buy-in likes just unto your page, write a cz followers it’s still going to set you up for a really bad roo i calculation from then on, right? Like if you’re now carrying one hundred extra fans that have no real intention in engaging with you are becoming part of your mission or donating to you every time you put a post out there, you’re getting even a smaller percentage, right? Because now you just artificially inflated all those numbers. Yeah, yeah, okay, good, but we’ve taken that off the table that that is not the way you go that way. Um, we’ll spend your few dollars on buy-in followers and fans used that money, even though, and this is what this i’ll i’ll make my case for it now, tony, the reason that i had said this was a conversation about gaming, social media, not cheating, is that just what we’re saying about facebook that you do have to play that game a bit on dh like i’m saying, don’t use your money on buying more, more followers instead. Used that money to say, you know, once a week we’re going to spend two dollars or five dollars, and we’re goingto busta post and get it more visibility, and that way it is content that you already have it’s maybe a post you already put up like if it was intend this week, maybe it’s a post specific toe reminder wednesday’s the registration deadline before the rate increases so it’s something that’s important is already something that you’re going to post on the page and then just put a couple of those dollars behind, boosting that more instead of putting your money somewhere else. What about the thinking that if we have a lot of let’s, shift over to twitter? If we have a lot of twitter followers, then people will think we’re popular and more people will join us organically. So if we buy ten thousand or twenty thousand twitter followers, which you’re right from a little i know about this, they’re probably fake. They’re either stolen and fake identity accounts or their bots, but if we have a big number than people will say, whoa, they have a big number about and then organically it’ll it’ll grow. Is that that flawed logic? And if so, why? I really think that it is flawed logic. So two, two versions, one in person, you know, if it was me and i had a million followers on twitter, for example, you’re going toe, you’re going to question that number, and if you first you’re going to say, okay, is that? Do i follow five people? You know, like it’s? Because it is obvious that this person is just, you know, buying all these followers because they don’t follow anyone? They’re not actually engaging with people. You’d also investigated by looking at the content just because i have a lot of followers, if i post, you know, once a month with, like a retweet of something what’s the point of following me anyway, right? There is no there’s, no content there there’s no value there. So even if i didn’t have a million followers and i was regularly engaging with people and i followed a ton of people and, you know, very similar number followed back that’s showing actually ah lot stronger truck between whoever that individual is and the people that they engage with them just see a billboard type. Profile right? Like you’re just an ad, right? Like lots of people are just there, but if it’s an organization similar, if you if you are truly an organization that should have a million followers, then you are an organization who should be putting out great content every day that you have profile that has, you know, your logo and information about whatever campaign you’re running or what your mission is has clear links over to your website that has similar branding and and tone and feel, you know, that there’s clearly a strong presence there if instead you’re an organization that shows that you have a million followers you again, you yourself follow five and your profile is very basic. You do not have strong called action and your messages you’re not regularly, you know, posting there, it doesn’t matter how many followers you have no one’s going to, really you don’t want to buy into that. That organization. In my intro, i linked, i grouped together buying views fans likes and also buying content. What about? You know, if we’re if we’re a small organization, we don’t have the wherewithal toe keep our keep facebook fresh or ur own even our own sight. Our own blogged fresh. What do you think about buying content? I guess occasionally. Or no, if you don’t like it, so i know i don’t like it, okay, but i want it cut the mic, right cover my kapin mike doesn’t like it, you know, if i can. Okay, so i think that there is, uh, certainly ah, path a reality in which money is exchanged for content on your website or your probably more. So, you know, on your block, like you’re saying versus on social, but in that situation is not that you are just buying content, but that instead you have say, uh, your education organization you focused on, kate told education, and you recruit twelve or twenty four say teachers in your service area to write something for you and that way you have to post a month. I’m just making this up, obviously, and you want to give them, you know, one hundred fifty dollars, check as a thank you for all of the time and sharing their expertise, and now they have one hundred fifty dollars to use in their classroom or whatever they want to do. So i think that kind of scenario where you are essentially providing honorariums for your community members, contributing to your content definitely makes them, but i wouldn’t ever consider that buying condoms. Mom, is that clear? What i’m saying there? Yeah, yeah, you’re you’re not you’re not out first of all, it’s it’s relevant because it’s coming from a community member and yeah, zim one you know, and they’re contributing content. So, you know, it’s it’s an honorarium? Yeah, exactly, and i think the other opportunity and again, i don’t think that money would necessarily be exchanged in this scenario, but four organizations, i don’t think that you should feel bad if you feel like, oh my gosh, we we don’t have time or we don’t we don’t feel like we have a lot to say to create all that content that is a huge place where i think partnerships are really important. I don’t know how much i’ve talked about it on the show over the years, but if anyone listening has been in any of my workshops around content planning, i always advocate that in your content plan, you include notes about if any of your funders have ah, blawg or social media profiles, if any of your coalition partners or project partners, if any of those people have outlets, and if they do, you should follow those because oftentimes they mean, you only had five minutes today while you were eating lunch while you were also, you know, listening to this radio show toe log in tow twitter and so long as you had all those folks there, maybe what you do today is just read retweet, you know, amplifies some of that content you don’t need to come up with it on your own, but, you know, it’s mission aligned, you know, that it’s relevant because they’re part of your kind of network of work. Andi, i think that’s a really important thing to keep in mind so that you don’t feel the pressure that you always have to write new articles every day. It may mean, hey, the five other organizations we work with are posting this. We’re going to repost it just like two other organizations are right in leverage, kind of how best would think about it. Is that network effect right? You have? Yes, you that’s beth cancer she’s dropping names. That’s, she’s referring to beth cantor? Yes, you have said that on the show and yeah, you’re you’re curating, you’re curating. Others content and and then? And then i probably learned this from you. Do you know they appreciate that, and they’re likely to share your content makes it more likely that their shells there show they’ll share your content and, you know, it’s a which also metoo we just have a minute left really manically last words or fans or whoever will come to you because maybe they already follow that partner or that thunder, and because you created a good relationship and sharing content between the two of you, you’re helping expose your content to all of their fans. Indeed, indeed. I know that from the non-profit media experience followers come when we share. We share good content from other people. Um, we gotta leave it there. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. In anywhere, stu. In april, we’re gonna get you for an interview. She’s amos sample ward and you’ll find her at amy rs ward and amy sample ward dot or ge next week risk-alternatives and your disaster recovery plan. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps, dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Family voices the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez on this music is by scots dahna with me next week for non-profit radio, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and green. Yeah. Snusz you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving e-giving cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentially ater tune in every tuesday nine to ten eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. 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