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Curtis Bingham: Donor Centric
To keep your donors, think and act like successful private sector companies. Curtis Bingham is founder of the Chief Customer Officer Council and a multi-award winning customer success strategist, conveying corporate methods to nonprofits.
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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Stone Battal Gia If I had two mouths. The words you missed today’s show donor-centric to keep your donor’s think and act like successful private sector companies. Curtis Bingham is founder of the chief customer officer counsel and a multi award winning customers success strategist. Conveying corporate methods to non-profits I’m Tony Steak, too. The reason to be an insider. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled twenty dahna slash pursuant by Wet your CPA’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Weinger cps dot com Bye. Tell us Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine I’m very glad that I can welcome Curtis Bigham to the show. Curtis End Bingham. He is recognized as the world’s foremost authority on chief customer officers, having helped more than two hundred from Coca Cola nationwide. MetLife, Oracle, JetBlue and other marquee companies. He helps build an explicit link between customers, success and the business value. Curtis is the founder and CEO of the chief customer. Officer Counsel, the first pure lead advisory group for see CEOs. The Council is that cco council dot or GE. And he’s at Curtis Bingham. Curtis. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Tony. Great to be here. Thanks to pleasure. You’re calling from Washington State, aren’t you? Just just outside of Seattle. It’s a rare sunny day here, so you don’t get a rare sunny day in the winter. I’m glad you’re with us. That’s right. Make you so, Curtis, you’ve you have consulted with Worked with Cem. Very high profile companies and brands. Um, I gather Ah, well, I know you will believe there are lots of lessons that non-profits can learn absolutely. I think it’s fascinating that some of the non-profits are now where a number of large private sector companies have been were, you know, ten twenty years ago where they started. Many of them started realizing that that they were losing Mohr customers out the back door than they were gaining in the front door. And, uh, and starting to realize that they really needed to start addressing the turn the revolving door out the back, because they just simply could not bring in enough new customers to replace those that they lost every year. And I think that, you know, based on the on my experience recently, I think that the Non-profit world is is kind of at that inflection point now where, where they really need to start focusing on on retaining donors rather than just trying to find new donors. Teo to keep their numbers up. I’ve had so many guests on talk about the difference in cost between retaining a donor and acquiring a new donor, and you’re not gonna have a lot of time to talk about retention. And that’s one of that’s the heart of your your customer centris ity. So that’s interesting. So you feel companies are fifteen or twenty years ahead of non-profits in this in this learning curve? Some of them some of them? Yes, some of them know, you know, fifteen to twenty years is is kind of about the threshold when when when people really start in the commercial sector, really started focusing on on on customer retention and customer issues. And, you know, that was about when I started started really diving into working with chief customer officers on. And it was, you know, it’s kind of fascinating. The very first one was out of Texas New Mexico power almost fifteen years ago, almost twenty years ago. Now it was a public utility company where they recognised that they, uh, that that customers have to have a voice. We have to give a voice to our customers in order to in order to keep them longer. And the rest of the industry started started tagging along, and it was a little bit nascent for a little while with the with the extreme customer focus. But it’s been in the last eleven years that that things have, really. They people have really, really focused on retaining customers almost as diligently and religiously as they are focusing on acquiring new customers. And that’s, you know, I’ve been doing working with the chief customer officer, counsel. I found it about eleven or twelve years ago. And, uh, and so that’s when. That’s when a lot of companies really, really started focusing on it and making it a priority, a sufficient priority that they have appointed an executive uniquely accountable to customers. Yeah, right, right, Theo, the chief customer officer, Who who are the customers of Non-profits? And I’m thinking donors, volunteers, potential donors. Are there others that I’m not thinking of? I think those are the those are the big ones and you know you’ve got within those ranks. You. I think a lot of people focus just on donors, but they miss all of the volunteers they don’t focus on on the volunteer experience, the volunteers who are the ones that were running the events and operating the events and helping Teo helping to bring in the money from from the individual donors. So it’s it’s. It’s fascinating to see that a lot of people forget that. But that’s a huge, huge piece that they need to be that cut that non-profits need to be paying attention to. In addition to just the just the people who give, you know, you can give of your time, you can give you your money and the people who do both or even more valuable to you. Yeah. Yeah. And we’re going to talk about you have some great strategies for stratify ing. The best people are that you need to pay the most attention to because, well, I don’t want to give away everything but, you know, you If you love everybody, you have to love. You can’t love everybody equally. We’re going to get to that, but you know they’re okay. But there are major brands that don’t stay customer centric and fade into irrelevance. You have a couple of examples. Just give us like a give us, like, two examples that have been just within the past. I don’t know. Twelve months or so of irrelevance. Major brands xero becoming irrelevant. Yeah. You know, there was had a fascinating conversation with the CMO of Panasonic a couple years ago, and he was while he was there. He’s since retired, but he asked a number of other company C M o’s Ah, In the high tech industry, what do you have a most afraid of And the CMO is the worst thing that they could imagine possible was that their brands could get lost in the noise and viewed as irrelevant by customers. And and and I think that it’s fascinating. Like you mentioned, a couple of big commercial sector companies have become irrelevant. You know, Sears declared bankruptcy last year. This was serious. Was was originally credited with removing racism fromthe shopping, eh? Experience because skin color disappeared when ordering from a catalog. And yet, you know, a few years ago, the Finance Year Eddie Lampert bought the company, milked all of the profits and refused to upgrade anything. And so now it’s a ghost town. And so they’ve They’ve dropped from twenty three hundred stores down to seven hundred, and they’re closing another seven hundred fifty. And, you know, I don’t know about you, but that’s your relevant in the minds on God. And as important as Ceres was, what? Like what? When did that catalog? I mean, is that? Is that one hundred year old company? I mean, Sears was serious, like the Amazon of its day. When the back in the catalogue day. Right? Right? Yeah, right. Yeah, there’s another one. There’s another one that G was. They used to own NBC Universal Studios, giant appliance company and one of America’s biggest bank. They were just late last year, removed from the Dow Jones industrial average after one hundred ten years. You know, there’s another great example of relevance. And then and then, you know, one of things that a lot of us have have run across here is this with the advent of uber and lift, and they’ve just kind of destroyed the taxi market that the medallions for the taxis in New York City, um, used to cost three hundred fifty thousand dollars originally cost. They now cost about three hundred fifty thousand dollars, but they were up to a million and right, and they’re all going there are going up in auction in foreclosure. I know people who know people who plan to retire on owning a medallion. You know, only a medallion or to have now seen that collapsed like fifteen or twenty per cent of its value. You hold your thoughts, Curtis. We take our first break will come. We’ll be right back pursuant a new free e book they have What’s that passes? They have a new free book. The Art of First Impressions. Do you need more donors? Uh, perhaps because you haven’t yet implemented Curtis’s ideas that we’re going to be talking about if Don’t acquisition is important to you. That’s what this is all about. It’s the sixth guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. Howto identify your unique your unique value and use it, plus creative tips. Tony Dahna may slash pursuant with capital P for, please. All right, now, let’s go back to donor-centric. Alright. Thank you for that indulgence, Curtis. You were just you were just talking about We’re talking about taxi medallions. Extreme loss of value because of Yeah, the news. You know, there’s the sharing and gig economy. Yes. Look, I think that the thing that people are finding here is that no matter how big you are, no matter how great you once were, people are big. Even big companies, especially the big companies, are becoming irrelevant in the face of somebody else coming in and better meeting customer needs. And that’s. And that’s just that’s kind of a mantra. Now of if you don’t understand your customers Ah, and and your donor’s well, what makes them passionate? Then somebody else is going to tap into that passion and then leave you behind. You know, we all run the risk of irrelevance every day, and it’s accelerating because the barriers to entry are so low. It’s so easy for somebody to reach our donors now that I think that there’s there’s a real, a real risk of of non-profits becoming irrelevant if they’re not really, really care, keyed into and attuned to the donors needs and and the passions and and their expectations do this comparison form you have. Ah, really, Ah, lot of very interesting numbers. One I wantto Ah, highlight is, um, the comparison of the donor retention in non-profits with what the private sector small companies consider acceptable retention rates. Compare those two for me. Yeah, absolutely. So this is. This is kind of the leaky bucket syndrome here. According to last year’s study in the Fund-raising Effects treyz project, there’s overall. Across the industry, the overall donor attention is about forty five and a half percent, um, for the key donors that have been donating Ah year over year, that number is about sixty to seventy percent. Um, the acceptable private sector small company retention rate is about ninety three to ninety five percent, so there is a huge gap. You know, there’s a fifty percent gap here in between what we are experiencing in the nonprofit sector versus what is deemed acceptable, turn or eternal in the in the commercial sector. And and that makes it really, really hard for us to ah, for us to actually grow if we’re losing that many out out the back door. That overall retention number is just incredible to me, where the overall number of the forty five and a half percent we’re losing more than we’re keeping. Absolutely. Yeah, I understand. For major donors, it’s different. It’s it’s more like sixty seventy percent for higher level donors. But but that overall rate just just floors me and we have talked about this. I’ve had many guests on Latto, not China trying to overcome this, you know, with strategies. But no one has come with the corporate strategies that that you employ. And then again, major brands like JetBlue etcetera. Yeah, okay, what’s one more real quick point on this okay that I like due to just bring it home here is that is Let’s turn this into Let’s turn this into a practical reality here. So in order for us, if we’re dealing with a forty five and a half percent overall retention Um So what that means is that in order to grow by one customer, you have tow land fifty six new customers every year. We’re in order to road to go to grow by one. What, like go buy one year over year, you have tohave fifty six new ones. Yeah, but in order to have a net growth of one new customer, you’re over a year, you have to land fifty six in order to in order to grow in order, Teo, in order to get it up with one more costume this year than you had last year. Similarly, you know, if if the average donation is about forty forty dollars to grow by a dollar, you need to add two thousand four hundred twenty one dollars to have a net growth of one dollar every year. And so what that means is that we’re the non-profits here are just working simply working too hard just to stay afloat because they’re losing their leaking so much out of out of the bucket or losing too many people out the back door. Okay, you’ve got you’re donor-centric city strategy, which has four prongs to it. Why don’t you? You preview those, and then we’re going to go into detail on each one? Sure, absolutely. So there’s I think that there’s there’s four different things that that really need to be. That non-profits really need to focus on one of them is that Dahna retention is acknowledging and convincing everybody in the in the leadership, the donor retention is the easiest way to protect and grow revenue, you know? And then the second one here is Donorsearch. Imitation is absolutely critical to prioritize our investments in in our in our business. And then the third one here is donorsearch I Gration is the way that we grow profits, and we can talk about what, what exactly that means. And then, finally, the donor engagement is what absolutely drives the the fundamental and powerful results that we all want to show you. Okay? And I said, set them up. We were already into donorsearch tension, of course. Yep, you have again another interesting number that a two percent increase in retention will yield a ten percent decreasing costs. Is that because of the cast? Is that because of the cost of acquisition, right, that’s that’s absolutely the case. Okay, what we see here, there were some studies that were done, Ah, over the last the last number of years here where they where they found that if we a two percent gain in retention is the same as decreasing our costs by as much as ten percent. So a ten percent haircut across the board can be alleviated by just, ah to gain in retention. And why is that? It’s theirs. There’s a There’s a couple of things. It’s far, far less expensive to retain an existing customer than it is to gather to get a new one, right? We know that, and you know it’s anywhere from, you know, to seventeen percent Mohr. Ah, more expensive to acquire to acquire new ones. And the existing customers are are eighty percent more likely to buy again. Ah, because after they’ve already crossed that first hurdle. And so the donors, it’s exactly the same thing. They don’t if they’ve donated in the past there far, far more likely to donate again. But we’re not leveraging them as well as we could. Yes. Okay. Okay. So let’s let’s get smarter about leveraging them. Let’s go to segmentation where this is something we’ve had other guests talk about, too. But you have a little different spin on it. What? Explain it, please. Yeah, Yeah. So one of the things that I like to show on in a presentation here is a collection of of ten men, all in the same suit. Some of them are tall, Some are short, some of her heavy set, some of her extraordinarily slender. And the suit on ly fits one person perfectly well, but it really doesn’t fit anybody else. And so you know the point that that that this makes here is that not all of our customers are created equally, and it’s astronomically expensive for a clothier to tailor the suit. Absolutely everyone. And as much as we’d like to give everyone the perfect fitting suit, we have to be more selective. And so what that means is that we have to be more selective in who we choose to choose to serve, we may be able to create a suit that fits instead of ten people. Maybe it Maybe it fits five, and with a little tiny bit of tailoring, we can make it work for this group of five. But it would be astronomically expensive Teo to address the other, the other five. So the private companies come. Private sector companies have become very selective through this notion of segmentation, which is a division into discrete customer groups that share similar characteristics and and by aligning our, um ah ourselves around this notion of ah segmentation and allows us to do four things really well. It allows us to align people, align our purpose, a mission and values with those people that truly value those things. It allows us to be laser focused on this smaller group of people and figure out what air their unmet needs. And how can we deliver those needs that air more useful toe to this narrowly narrow group rather than a scattershot trying to be all things to all people? It allows us to with a segmentation. It allows us to get greater value from so from high profit individuals and lower profit individuals. And then it allows us if we do it right. You know, the best companies go beyond just segmenting according to how much money are they giving us? But they focus on need and behavior and and the potential to give us more money to donate more money or two participate with us in more ways. And so So the segmentation gives us a ah ah. Lot more room in which we can operate because we’re serving a smaller audience. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And now, part of what you say in segmentation and it’s it’s it’s absorbed in what? In what you just said, just one make explicit is that, you know, if if we’re gonna love all our donors, we have to love some more because it just can’t be. It can’t be equivalent across. And that’s what you’re That’s what your ten guys in suits. Of course it could be. You know, maybe I should mix out. Maybe should have also beside that ten women in dresses that are only ill fitting that are ill fitting nine, But absolutely Okay. Okay, so But what that means then under buy-in intended. Okay, I understand, but So what that means is, you know, in an impact. I’m thinking, you know, as the guy who doesn’t fly very much me, You know, I’m the one who never gets the upgrade. You know, I have a hotel brand Marriott. I’m very loyal to them, so they take care of me. But if I stay at a Hilton, I don’t get, you know, I don’t get the upgrades. So what you did say, though, that you did mention people at the bottom or the smaller donors there’s there is something for them to so make me make me feel good about this segmentation process. Yeah, You know, this this is this is one of the hardest challenges with with tearing and with segmentation and tearing is that everybody wants to be Ah wants to treat all of our customers equal and and as much as we would love to, we just simply can’t There are not enough resource is there’s not enough people in our organization. There’s not enough money in our organization to treat everybody the same. And so we have to be precisely because we love our customers. We actually have to treat them differently. We have to love some of them Mohr and and the the The reason for this is that loving some of them Mohr enables us to fulfill our mission. It remains it enables us to remain a going concern. We have to focus on those we absolutely cannot afford to lose. So ah, great example of this is the oxygen masks that come down in the what in the or the or that are talked about coming down in the onboarding airline instruction. Even though a lesson even those of us in coach economy. We still get Air Basques, you know, waiting for the time you’ve got to put a quarter in to get the oxygen mask. It’s kind of like putting the quarter in to use the restroom, right? For all of you know, for all the change. I can’t. I mean, I hope they take cards. When that happens, I think I can swipe and then I get the oxygen drop down. Okay. Yeah. So? So the notion here is that they want you to make sure that you take care of the less advantaged First, you know, the children, the elderly, whatever the infirm, so so that you can you want to make sure that they take? I’m sorry. You gotta take care of things here. Yeah, yeah. Good care of yourself first, because you’re no good to anybody next to you if you’ve gone loopy or if you passed out because the time of useful consciousness here on the airplane, if they in a case of rapid depressurization is thirty to sixty seconds or less, you know, fifteen seconds. And so you have to take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. And so when you come back to ah, looking at our donors in order to keep serving all of our customers, we have to be able to take care of of some of our best customers first, because they keep, they pay the bills, they keep the lights on and enable us to do to serve some of our other customers or donors that may not be paying quite as much. Um, you know, there’s a there’s a great ah, great example of ah, large non-profit here. Who? Who said that every month there’s a there’s a sweet little lady that’s writing out a check for a dollar. Fifty a check for a dollar fifty, and and we’d love her to death. But it actually cost us more to process that. Then the cheque is worth. And so we lover, We want her to continue because it feels good for her, and we love her attitude, inner spirit. But we also need to focus on those on those donors that are going to keep the light on. And when we do that, That gives us the opportunity to create initiatives to create value that trickles down through the organization and that everybody benefits and also subsidizes the processing of that dollar fifty check and the and the acknowledgement letter that goes out to her right. So it enables us another worst thing would be to, say, return that cheque and say, I’m sorry, we don’t want your money. I mean, that would be that would be devastating to that that sweet old woman or two. Not more traumatic or to not acknowledge it, because you just never know if that dollar fifty year donor on that’s a really extreme example. I’ve never really even seen e-giving that small, but but I’ve seen certainly lots of ten and fifteen dollars year donors and they can become your your plan gift donor zoho be the person who dies. You don’t know it because you’re not close to them. You’ve been acknowledging they’re they’re very small gifts, but you don’t know that they died until you get a notice of probate and you find out that there in your will and you have your residual beneficiary. And it’s a very it’s a five million dollar estate. There’s some small, outright bequest to some distant cousins, and you’ve got fifty percent of the residual that’s left. That is not that uncommon you. So just as coming strictly from you come from the corporate side, and I know that you’re not saying, Ignore those people who give ten dollars a year. But you have to treat them differently and not as can’t spend as much time with them as you do the higher level names. I understand that. But I would never say Don’t acknowledge that even dollar and a half a year donor-centric Q. Because you just never know what else might be there. Okay, Just shout out from the from the from the fund-raising side. But you’re not. Not that you’re antithetical to fund-raising I’m not suggesting that at all. Just just bringing in the plant e-giving side. That’s all. Okay, um, we just have about, like, two minutes before a break. Give me a couple of strategies for how we can show that love. On any level. Any level. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that that’s that’s really fascinating here. Problem. Before we dive into that question, here is its figure. Who are your best customers? Your best donors. You know, we look att att these folks by how much money that they’re giving. We also need an add add another dimension of that which is how passionate are they buy-in about your cause. They may not be giving you the most money, but they may be absolutely one hundred percent passionate. And those air really useful to Corral and Teo to invite into the tent, if you will, so that you can invite them to help you invite them to participate in AA in a bunch of your activities. Because they may not be able to give you give you a lot of money. They may be able to give you connections and time and and introductions that could be hugely valuable to you. Okay, we’re going to take this break, and then when we come back, I’m goingto ask Curtis How you how you start to How do you identify those? Those critical to keep donors. When you see piela, they’re kicking off a remote non-profit roundtable Siri’s each quarter a Wagner CPAs C P a bona fide will cover a topic that they know intimately, and you need to know basic understanding. Last week was revenue recognition for grants and contracts. You can watch that archive video at weger cps dot com. Click Resource is then seminars. Now time for Tony’s. Take two. You want to be a non-profit radio insider? It’s time. Why is that exclusive content NUFER The New Year I’m kicking off expanded guest interviews that are exclusively for non-profit radio insiders. Each week, I’m going to go deeper into a topic with the guest. We’re going to do this with Curtis when when the show is over or cover something that we didn’t talk about on the show Curtis and I are going to talk about is he’s got an exercise that we’re going to talk about in the insider video. Now that sounds like something that would be behind a Paywall. And for many podcasters. Maybe it is, but not this one. There’s no pay. Absolutely not so But I do ask you to do is be an insider. I want you to get the weekly insider alerts, and the way to do that is go to tony martignetti dot com and click the Insider alerts button. That’s it. That’s the way to gain your access to exclusive these private five minute videos that are going to be producing for insiders. Now let’s get back to Curtis Bingham and Donor-centric Donor-centric City. All right, Curtis. How do we identify those who are critical to keep? I think it begins with, like, Like I said, obviously we’re looking at some of the metric we may be looking at segmenting our donor’s based on, you know, dollar contribution, recency frequency, volume, whatever that those air traditional metrics here, but there’s there’s a there’s a different, um, different scale toe. Add to the mix here, and that is, you know, passionate. How passionate are they about your about your mission? Are they donating to you because they because it’s mandated by the company, are they? Or do they have a loved one that is, you know, that may have been suffering from cancer or leukemia o. R. Or whatever it is, you know. Are they passionate because they have a family involved in, uh, in the in the benefits that directly benefits from the from the charity? So, you know, it’s it’s really there’s There’s any number of ways in which we in which you could assess that passion, whether it’s through surveys or direct contact or or you know, our Albert calls or, you know, executive executive meetings, whatever the cases. But looking at, they’re at their passion and figure out who are the most passionate. Ah, even though they may not be giving the largest amount of money. And then you look at at a slice at one Mohr way here and that’s looking at Where are they donating? Are they donating, you know, dollar to you in a dollar to somebody else and a dollar to somebody down there down the road more? Are they donating everything, all of their discretionary income to you? And so if you put those on a on A on a force where four square box with passionate about your mission over the top and dedicated donations over to the right, the most valuable people are those people. The most valuable customers or our donors are those that are absolutely passionate about your mission, and they don’t get it. They don’t donate. They don’t spread around their donations. They are donating everything that they have over to, Ah, over to you. And that’s that’s this notion of share of wallet What percentage of a customer spending our donors donations is captured by your brand or your or your firm. And so it’s really valuable. Lot of the best private sector companies here. Commercial sector companies here are really starting to do this segmentation by share of wallet because it shows some very fascinating things, and it uncovers people who are really valuable to your company that that may not have shown up and just be in just sheer dollar volume contributed. And this this wallet share gives us a really fascinating way of looking at our at our donors and figuring out which ones we need to keep, which ones we need to grow and which ones just really. There’s too much competition. Let them go, too, to somebody else. Tio. Thank them for whatever donations that they’re doing. But don’t spend an inordinate amount of money trying to convince them to donate more because they never will. How our company’s measuring share of wallet How are they learning that it’s there’s a There’s a really interesting way of ah, of measuring it. You know, there’s a number of really different, really complex calculations that some of the big companies are doing. But there was a really fascinating article that came out was published in The Wall Street Journal in I’m Sorry, the Harvard Business Review Rather in two thousand eleven, and it talks about the wall allocation rule and I’m happy to send. Send people a link to that if they if they’re interested in receiving this and walking through it. But it was based on a study of one hundred seventy thousand customers over two years, and they found that the share of wallet was very highly correlated with actual purchases in A in a commercial sector. And what they found was that they went just really briefly. What they did was they looked at for each brand or each non-profit what are the the the relevant, the perfectly relevant competing brands that people are choosing to donate metoo and then you, you do a survey. You Ah, you. You call them up, whatever. And you get them to measure to describe how much they are contributing to each of these different different non-profit organizations, and then you convert that into a rank, and the computation is very is very straightforward. And so you get you, you, Khun marry that with a kind of an estimated money that they’re giving to competing brands. And you can. You can calculate the share of wallet, and it’s a fantastically easy back of the envelope. Method for calculating share of wallet And it gives you workable information that you Khun then used in in prioritizing your spending to Trier to acquire and retain some of these donors. That just it just makes a lot of sense to me that the ones you wantto focus on the most are those that are giving you the largest share of their disposable income. Or maybe maybe it was their charitable dollars. Maybe have to narrow it down to that. All right. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I’m okay. I want to make sure we get everything there’s. So let’s move to migration. Getting getting people, getting people, getting people more Mohr. Well, moving them over, moving them over to the today, I think, to the right of that quadrant that you described and and ultimately to the to the to the upper to the upper right. Yeah, the the this this is fascinating because, you know, like you said, the big question is how do we migrate them from one bucket to the to the other? How do we make them more passionate about our cause? How do we get a larger share of wallet? And and this actually came out of some work that Hillary noon and of who is now a pursuant. Ah, and I worked on a number of years ago. She when she was American Cancer Society and she was really interested in How do you retain and activate donors and volunteers and at the time and still is to some extent, loyalty was all the rage, but but But it didn’t really tell us anything. Um, you know, Net promoter score. A lot of people are using this net promoter score, which is your willingness to recommend a brand Teo somebody else. It didn’t really tell us anything because it measures some intense take future action. And, you know, St Jude’s was a great example here. Were with their net promoter scored. Nobody will give anything but a ten. Everybody gives them attend because even though a service interaction might have been miserable, If you give anything less than a ten, it’s a knock against the kids, and you just simply don’t know the kid. So we interviewed a number of CCO Council members, and we found that NPS, the Net promoter score, doesn’t actually measure behavior. But engagement does. And so this this notion of of customer engagement was was built up here, and we found that it. Actually, if we the more we engage your customers, the more likely they are to collaborate with us, advocate with us and and and donate money to us. And so So this notion here is, um, you know, customer engagement here is we defined. I define it as the extent of a customer’s willingness to invest his or her discretionary time with a company for mutual benefit. So how willing if a company of if a person is really engaged, they’re willing to help you do things, they’re willing to collaborate with you. They’re willing to participate in your activities to help with fund-raising. They’re willing to make introductions. They’re willing to do things on your behalf, and then how do we measure it? It’s the measurement is the sum of all of the activities that build a positive, positive emotional attachment between a company and and customers, and that results in greater involvement, greater advocacy and greater revenue and profit. And so, you know, there’s a There’s a couple of things that that people have done to engage. Engage your customers. So so you have to have the basic blocking and tackling, right? You can’t. You can’t be treating customers poorly. But once you’ve got the basic blocking tackling right, then you can start engaging in them. How can you get them to collaborate with you? What can you do to actually, What can you ask them to do to help you with? If they help you, they arm or invested in your success. So are we talking? Are we talking about small things? Like just sign a petition, call a congressman? Things like things like that to start. Yes. And Mohr OK, I think that getting them to do something for you creates this. This need for reciprocity. Um, they the more that you can get them to do for you, the more inclined they are to, um you want to support you. And so when When? When we were together. Ah, A little bit ago at at pursuance conference, I talked to a number of the non-profits that were there, and and there was a couple of really great examples. I mean, one of them, there was one non-profit there who would have you received a call from someone after a podcast saying, Hey, the noise quality on your podcast has really deteriorated. I’m a sound engineer. It’s really bothering me. Can I come and help you fix the problem? And so they said, Well, of course. And they came in. The gentleman came in spend a day crawling underneath all of the cabinets and countertops and fixed, replaced a bunch of replaced on board some wires and and electronics and solve the problem for them. And that’s something that they didn’t have the capability of doing. Now you look at this on the another dream there is another. There was another non-profit there that I could hold on. You hold that example because I gotta take a break. But before, I don’t want to make explicit that thie podcast The person was complaining The sound of was not twenty. Martignetti non-profit radio that was some non-profit had not, Not not non-profit. Okay, tell us, can you use more money? Do you need an additional revenue source? You want to diversify revenue, you get a long stream of passive revenue. When companies you refer to tell us process their credit card transactions through Tello’s, you watch the video and then send potential companies that you could refer to watch that same video You get the long stream the fifty percent of the fee for each transaction that Tello’s processes. And that adds up the video. Is that tony dot m a slash Tony Tello’s We got to do the live listener love. And there is ah lot Tampa, Florida Adelanto, California Wilmington, Wilmington, North Carolina, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, Northvale, New Jersey Very close to where I grew up in old Japan. Live love to each of those cities. Wilmington special shout out to you, of course, North Carolina. But the love is see that I can’t do it. Equal, limited, egalitarian Lee. Equally, Curtis has a word. Equanimity, equanimity, But Quinn Emelius Lee, because I just, you know, I live in North Carolina, so that’s there in the like that in the upper quad to the upper right quadrant. But then the live love goes out to everybody else, too. From Adelanto, California to Tampa, Florida and Brooklyn, New York and New York, New York. All right, let’s go abroad to ah, wow! Taipei, Taiwan and Beijing China Knee How Teo to our listeners, they’re Islamabad, Pakistan, Seoul, South Korea. On your haserot comes a ham Nida in Savi, Edo, Japan. Konnichi Wa, Hanoi, Vietnam. Tehran, Iran. Sudan is with us. I don’t believe we’ve had to. Sudan Listener Live love to each of those live listeners in who are abroad and the podcast pleasantries, the vast majority of our audience over thirteen thousand listeners each week. The podcast listeners pleasantries to you. I am grateful and thankful that you are with us week after week after week after week. You’re sticking with us because it’s great value. I mean, there’s like there’s about your questioning. I’m just, ah, having some fun pleasantries to the podcast audience right now. Back to Curtis Bingham. Who, Curtis. You have another example of a non-profit engagement and migration? Yeah, there was there was one person there at the at the event. There was one non-profit here that that there ah, there are a number of their large donors were brought in to help them create a donor survey program. There was another one that had a fantastic example where they brought in a number of employees from Amazon to take a tour of their of their warehouse facility and the Amazon employees. They asked the vast Amazon if they had any advice for them in how to improve their logistics. And Amazon brought in a team of their own warehouse logistics managers and in a couple of days just completely redesigned their their warehouse, using all of the best practices that Amazon has developed over over the years. You know, another great example is that there is one one non-profit has a number of technology corporate partners, and they were able to go to them and say, What is the bait? The best online HR system that you have found and and they had intended to spend. I’m doing some research on this, and the company came back said, Look, we’ve already done The research here is the best one. We’ll even help you implement it. And so, you know, the real question for you is you’re trying to engage your donors is to think about what can you ask them to do for you? How can you help in engage them in helping you fulfill your mission? You know it can be small, like fixing the fixing some of the audio on your podcast. It can be large to helping implement a large AARP system or revamping your warehouse logistics. But the thing is, how can you ask people to help? And one of things that I think people are afraid to do is ask people for help. They’re getting really good at asking people to donate, but they’re afraid of asking people for help. And yet, asking people to help you is allows them to go beyond just kind of a passive donate donate or to someone who’s actively engaged when they’re actively engaged in collaborating with you. They’re more likely to advocate for you. And then it’s not just about telling them, Go talk, go tell your friends and family or bring them to some sort of a you know, Black Tie fund-raising event. It’s here, introduced me to these people or talk to the CEO of this company here. That’s that’s possibly that’s considering making our charity a corporate, you know, a corporate sponsorship. And so, so once they are more eager to collaborate with you, they’re Mohr eager to ah, to be very vocal and advocate for you. And that’s when they start changing their behaviour and donating Mohr and staying longer, donating and advocating. As you said Now, Tio, know what people want to be engaged in where their interests lie. You need to be listening. And you you mentioned possibly surveying for for for for those high level, most engaged owners, the ones in the upper right quadrant that maybe personal meetings, personal face-to-face meetings where you’re finding out what it is that moves the person. Is that Is that your research? Is that your advocacy is that your your program for survivors of domestic abuse? Is that your mental health work? You know What is it that moves them that then you can engage them. You know, appropriately, with opportunities that at least are, you know, we’re going to appeal. Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, this is This is it’s very, very easy to do. There’s a There was an article that was published in the Harvard Business Review just this month that talks about how easy it is to figure out why customers buy from you. Um, and in ten twelve interviews, you confined out the five six reasons why customers buy from you, Ah, and and be able to articulate them better than anybody inside your company ever could. And the same thing could apply here in five or six interviews ten interviews with with some of your most valuable donors. You could find out the hot buttons that you need to start pushing in all of your marketing communications in all of your your your your donor meetings of the hot button that you push on social media in your advertisements. And when. Once you know those hot buttons because you’ve listened to them, you heard it directly from them. You’re far more likely to capture those passion and bring those. Bring them in. You’ve twice. Now you’ve mentioned Harvard Business Review. I have to stop reading U S. A. Today. I think I need to step up. I’ll step up my another another mix. OK. All right. Yes. Diversify. Diversify. Okay, um, so have we. You feel like I mean, just for the hour. We have to wait before I get that. Where’s your book? How come I can’t referred listeners to a book that you’ve written that that covers all this? I’ve been threatening to write a book forever, and and I I acknowledge that I have been remiss in working on too many things. That’s the problem that I have is that I have too many great ideas and and not enough. Not enough assistance, I think, Teo, capture them all and and take advantage of all of the brilliant ideas that are on the cutting room floor. Yeah, no kidding. My God, man, I break last break. Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Another revenue source down. He’s a second way Mentioned one before. You know the way of diversifying mobile e-giving you can learn about it with text to gives very simple five part email, Many course over five days. One e mail a day. You’re only five emails away from raising money through mobile giving. Or at least learning more about it. Lots of misconceptions. Um, so to start the many course, where do you go? You What do you do? You text n pr. November, Papa. Romeo. Two, four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. All right, we’ve got several more minutes before we hit the rap with with Donor-centric and Curtis. OK, All right. So I’ve admonished you about the book. I’m sure I’m not the first person to tell you earlier, monisha if you had one, I would be telling listeners, they gotta buy it. All right. So have we covered migration and engagement satisfactorily? Anything more you want to say about those? Yeah, really, really quick. There’s a couple of things that, um that you can weaken look at in in collaboration and advocacy. So, you know, I have some more resource is if anybody’s interested that talk about some of the ways in which you can collaborate, you really quickly you can get feedback from them. You know, whether it’s advisory board, focus group, you can involve Minya strategic planning process, cubine involvement, innovation activities or excess. Ours is you can enlist their services to help mutually support other other other donors, other customers, other volunteers, you know, participate in in in a lot of your your fund-raising activities and make introductions and so on advocacy, you know, you could use them in your used them in marketing, put put together the stories of why people are donating and, uh, and put him in your marketing. Um, let them generate help generate your marketing. MetLife did a great job of this a little while back where they put together a, They asked some of their their customers to write a letter to the to a family member, describing why it’s so important for everybody to have life insurance. Why, it’s so important for this family member to have life insurance, and they didn’t actually end up running the ads with them. But they got really rich information as to how people view this. This tired old thing called life. And so, you know, how can you use them to help you win your promotions and your marketing? You know what kind of doors, Khun? They open for you. What? How can they help you on social media? What can they do, Teo? Generate content and ideas and donation opportunities for you. So a lot of different ways in which you can get them. You can collaborate and advocate. Okay, Awesome. We still have several minutes left together. So what? What? Have I not asked you satisfactorily that waken going tomb or or something we haven’t covered? What? We still got time left. I think I think you’ve covered. Covered most everything here. I think that you’re kind of the the things to the takeaways here. Is that as much as as sexy as it is to continue focusing on bringing in new new donors every year. You really, really have to start focusing on retaining the year exists thing stopping that revolving door, um, and and we need to figure out how to keep our top tier donors. You know, we one of the things that that we looked at here is, you know, kind of in the share of wallet we talked about, talked a little bit earlier about, you know, segmenting the customers by share of wallets. And there’s a group of customers that you need to focus to focus on retaining. You know, just don’t do anything wrong. They’ll stay with you forever because they have a very high share of wallets. There’s a there’s a group that you have to focus to protect, to make sure that other nonprofit organizations don’t get in there and and lead them away. And then there’s a group that you should that you need to focus on growing because they have, ah, high potential share of wallet. But there’s there’s also this this notion here that, you know, there’s there’s There’s a big thing that people do in the non-profit, which is to share their donor lists. And for these, these categories of customers here, the segments of customers that you’re focusing on retaining and protecting and growing man for the love of God. Don’t share those names on that list. Oh, my God. What? Anybody hearing that you’re destroying that share of wallet? Yeah. Lower tiers. Oh, my God. Sure. Away. Yeah. Yeah. But don’t share these names here because because you want to capture more sure of wallet. You don’t want to incite them. Or in our invite them, too, to go back and and disperse their payments because everybody deserves something. Yeah. Now that well in the sharing of lists also has privacy concerns around it. You know, I don’t know that that seems like a risky that’s that just that sharing of any of any names like that. That sounds like a a risky proposition if if a donor figures that out even even even a low level donor-centric fied, they’ll tell ten people hyre. Right. All right, all right. Cars were going, Tio. We’re gonna leave it there. And so you you offered lots of resource is so I will remind people that they can get you. Ah, Twitter at Curtis Bingham for additional resource is because the man hasn’t written a book. I don’t know. I’m surprised I even had you on No I want to thank you very much. Thank you so much for sharing great ideas. Thank you. Thank you. Been delightful. And for insiders that the additional content is going to be an engagement exercise, Curtis and I are going to share with you next week. Courageous communication with Mary and er sh If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing Curtis gave them a very good shot out. All technology enabled. Data driven. Absolutely. Bye weinger SEPA is guiding you beyond the numbers. Weinger cps dot com By Telus Credit Card and Payment Processing your passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Our Creative Producers Clan miree Off Sam Leibowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York They’re with me next week for Non-profit Radio Big non-profit Ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Duitz. Metoo. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get you thinking. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? 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