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Nonprofit Radio for October 26, 2018: HTTPS & Does Your Website Suppress Giving?

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Ben Byrne & Katherine White: HTTPS
Do you need the security of HTTPS for your website and how easy is it to start implementation? Probably and quite. Our panel is Ben Byrne with Cornershop Creative and Katherine White from Kanopi Studios. (Recorded at #18NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rachel Clemens: Does Your Website Suppress Giving?
Rachel Clemens is concerned that your website is holding you back from raising all the money you can. Are you confusing donors? Overloading them? She’s chief marketing officer at Mighty Citizen. (Also recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference.) It’s website day!

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with strep. Oh, simba, leah if i had to read that you missed today’s show working virtual we talk through the issues encountered when managing remote staff technological, generational, emotional measurement, recruiting and retaining. Our panel is heather martin from inter faith family and alice hendricks with jackson river. I was recorded at eighteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference and map your data to your audiences. Feed your folks the data they crave. Courtney clarke and david mask arena have identified five audience types and their data needs she’s with forum one and he’s fromthe conrad and hilton foundation that’s also recorded at eighteen. Auntie si, tony, take two who’s on first, we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising david driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com bye! Tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Here’s working virtual welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference twenty eighteen we’re coming to you from the convention center in new orleans second interview of the second day of our coverage all our ntcdinosaur interviews are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests right now are heather martin, ceo of inter paid family, and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. Heather alice, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to non-profit radio. What have you wanted to be here ? How’s ? The conference going for you ladies ? Great. Have you done ? Yeah. Excellent. Okay, great. Next one. That goes good. Superlative. Have you done your session yet ? We did. We were on yesterday morning. Okay. So, it’s all relaxing now ? Right now, we’re just partying. Drinks last night. Exactly. Okay, all right. Your workshop topic is working virtual attracting and managing the best talent. I’m sure we have stats on how many organs non-profits have virtual employees. Or at least what the trends are. It’s it’s obviously growing. It’s really growing wouldn’t be here. And not only in the nonprofit world in the for-profit world as well, and especially in tech. Yeah, okay, absolutely it’s becoming it because of the technology that can enable easily to work from home, your chat technologies, videoconferencing, it’s become a thing and everyone is doing it now on exploring whether it works for their organizations a lot. Let me dive into the word, everyone not to quibble with you at all, but i was thinking generationally, are there fifty and sixty some things that are comfortable working, being virtual ? Not well, maybe we’ll get to whether they’re comfortable having virtual employees. They will get to that. My voice is cracked like i’m fourteen get that, but how about being virtual employees themselves ? Are they comfortable ? I’m over fifty, so include myself in that ? Are we comfortable doing that ? Or, you know, i think it actually depends on the organization and it’s really dependent on the organization making the employees comfortable, and so i’m not sure i don’t know if you have any stats, but i don’t know from an age perspective, there’s a very good question about an older generation being comfortable having virtual employees under the managing them, however, as being the virtual employee, i think it’s all about how the organisation sets it up. Okay. Excellent. All right, so that there’s promised them for those fifteen. Sixty something ? Absolutely. Okay. Okay, let’s, talk about it. Since since we’re skirting around it, how about comfort or discomfort with having employees being virtual when you’re over fifty ? So i again, i i think that there might be an age discrepancy in the comfort, but i also think it’s just personality, and i’m finding that when i talked to a lot of people who are looking to work virtual and they’re asking me, what can i do to go to my manager, my supervisor and quote unquote, sell them on me working virtually my answer to them is find out what the resistance is. There is part of the resistance as we’ve always done it this way i need to see my employees to know that they’re working. And how do you get around that ? Some of the key things that we talked about in our session are setting very clear goals and making sure that those goals are being met. But let’s, go to alice talk to flush out the gold. Gold setting a little. Yeah, i mean, i think that there’s not that much difference in terms of goal setting in terms of accountability for delivery, bols, that you’re supposed to be doing so used that the real issue is communication making sure you have a structure where there’s frequent communication and proof that you’re doing the delivery ble. So you’re measured not on a punch clock style of i get to work at nine. And i leave at five. And therefore i must have worked during that eight hour period you’re measured based on what is the work you were set out to do. And did you actually do that work in the time period ? I said i would do it. So if you’re a project manager are working on a program area you work with your you work with your supervisor on here, the things that i’m going to get done at a particular time. And if that’s not done that’s ah, that that could be a concerned that’s a problem, but that’d be a problem in the non workplace too, but rather than time. It’s mostly based on work product. Okay, okay. So that should apply even if you don’t have any virtual, i think one of the things we found is that working virtually is this, or managing virtually is the same as managing in an office. But you just have to be much more intentional about what you’re doing. Much more intentional about your communication, understanding that you’re not gonna have that water cooler conversation, that someone’s not going over here. Something and understand where you are in a project and b ready to communicate with those people who are not physically in the office. But the management and the psychology of the management is very similar. Okay, it’s, very valuable, you know, and make explicit. Yeah. How about attracting people, teo a virtual or attracting the right talent so that we’re comfortable that they’re gonna work in this work environment ? What do you, what you thought ? Well, there’s. Two thoughts on that that i have one is what one is that your talent pool is the entire country or world, should you see fit ? And there are wonderfully talented people in places that aren’t in the city or town in which your organization is located, and it gives you this ability to recruit from a wide place. And you can also hyre incredibly talented people from who have a wonderful life style. In a less cost of in my organization, we have people who live in a lower cost of living state than washington, d c where were based, and that allows me to provide a living wage and for my employees in that. But the other thing is just you, when you’re recruiting, you have to be very mindful of the interview process, and i think one of the things we talked about in our session was helping people figure out who these folks, how well they’ll respond to working virtually how do you do that in an interview ? Yeah, who’s best with that, heather so so some of the things that that we recommend, some of the things that we recommend is number one, we use technology as a tool to enhance communication in a virtual environment. So sometimes you’re using video comp, renting just for a regular meeting, and you’re talking through instant messenger and there’s other ways you’re using technology. So in the interview process, i always recommend that people use the technology that you’re going to require those employees to be using during their job if they can’t do an interview on skype or zoom or appearance and it’s very uncomfortable, it’s not to say that that might not be a good employee for you, but you have to be aware that there might need to be some training or development on that tool for them and no going. Into that is important when you’re hiring that person, and if you see generally a discomfort with technology that’s a pretty big red flag, or or or a red flag that you might need to overcome or that person’s not right for the position, and then the other question is some positions just don’t lend themselves to working virtually, and you have to be aware of that when you’re hiring also what are from ? Well, one of the easiest ones that we look at it if you’re an office manager and you’re managing the physical office days, it’s really difficult to be virtual when you need thio notice that there’s a crack in the ceiling where the vendor needs toe, you know, deliver something and be their way. We don’t have a tool for measuring the coffee level. Zack remotely happen. And now there’s an app for that you can probably it’s time for a break pursuing they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They want you to see this because they’ve taken the secrets from the fastest growing startups and applied those to your non-profit it’s free as all the pursuant resource is, are you accustomed to that ? Come on, it doesn’t even bear saying it’s on the listener landing page that’s at do you know where tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please now back to working virtual or any others that stand out to you ? I think it depends on the industry and what the job you’re doing. If you’re someone who does intake or you have to be there to welcome people into the office, you need someone physically there. There may be hybrids where sometimes people could work in the office and sometimes people could work from home. And i think thinking this through before you moved to a virtual environment or virtual job for that specific role is ki you can’t just say, ok, tomorrow we’re just gonna go virtual zoho alice, how do you how do you create this environment ? Gonna be hospitable ? Toe virtual ? I mean it’s all about culture. You have to create a culture where everyone is communicating well with each other, where people know what the expectation is on response times of communication has got to start at the top. It has to start a willingness that you absolutely to accommodate virtual employees. Okay, so it starts there and how does that how does the ceo trickling down ? You adhere to it. So rather than walking from my office into someone else’s office and telling them what i think they should know that maybe two other people who aren’t physically, they’re also need to know i will do that on a slack channel, for example. So i’ll use an instant messenger chat program, and i’ll put them all on the channel and talk to them all together at once, even though you were the mark, even if that’s the situation. Yeah, because it requires amount of discipline because you don’t want to leave people out. The interstitial conversation that happens at the water cooler can also be done virtually and that’s pretty important, too. Okay. All right. We’re going to get the tools you mentioned. Slack, slack channel. Is that that it’s ? All okay, okay. A chat. It’s. Simple chance a chance. A chance for you. You’re over my head, but i’m trainable. Alt-right i could be a virtual employees trust way. Mind of some technology challenges there, but we could get there. I’ll be there immediately. Got the radio stuff ? Yeah. I’m very good at that. I mean, i got knobs and everything in front of buttons and all. I don’t know what they do. Okay, what else ? Uh, anything else about creating the environment, making inhospitable ? I think some of the things that seem or some of the other things are making sure that your remote employees have the tools, whether it’s, the technology or even a monitor to go along with that laptop that you’ve given them because some some people who go into a new job, they’re given a laptop, they say work from home and it’s not as easy as just is your home office conducive and being able to help them think through what are the things that they need to set up in a virtual environment to make them successful and effective at what they’re doing. We talked about it a little bit about security and knowing what the security measures are. You can’t go into a coffee shop and work from your computer. Number one. Are you on the y fire you on the public wifi ? Are you on a virtual private network ? Are you using your hot spot ? You’ve to go the bathroom and your computer’s sitting in starbucks do you leave it there and ask the person next youto watch your computer while you go to i mean, we set policies around these things, especially in organizations that have a lot of regulations on data and accessibility for their information. These are things you have to think about when you’re creating a virtual environment. Okay ? It could be hip, baby what’s the credit card p c m p c i b c i okay, what do you do when you’re at starbucks alone ? You’re on you’re on a vpn virtual private network ? Yeah, you have to go the bathroom. You gotta close up. You use the diaper changing table in and you pull it down in the restroom and put your laptop on that. Take care of your business. Okay ? It’s ? Very. You know, i love the ditty gritty. This are listen, i mean, we’re all about real life here. Way need detail. You need clear policies around policies that people sign and everyone is very well aware of what the security policies, our protection use of technology. You said the company’s versus your pride, your personal technology home versus away from home. Okay, all right. Help me out here. Getting else what else belongs all this ? What else belongs in our policy ? Well, so there’s, we’re talking about there’s communication policies. How ? I mean, one of the things that we found when we first started having more virtual employees. We started as an in office, evan was in the office, and as we grew into different communities, we had employees in different cities and states than our headquarters were located in and things like when i sent an email, i just need you to acknowledge that the email resent if you’re in the office and i send you an e mail and you haven’t responded, i could walk into your office and say, hey, you get my e mail even if you’re not ready to respond to it. I know you’ve gotten it, and by five o’clock that day, i’ll get an answer when someone’s virtual and you send an e mail, you have no idea if it got lost, did it go into their spam and you have to get some kind of communication with one quick got it. So we said a communication policy that says if i asked you something or requested something, you send an email back saying, i got it, and i’ll get back to you by wednesday period the end it’s all set, and so that that you need to be very much more aware of those types of things and other community way have communication policies that go along with that. Okay, alice, you want teo or policy statement ? I mean, the security, i think, is the most important, you know, the email security, the hacking potentials. You know what happens also, when someone is let go, the lockout procedures, they have access to all of your systems, and they’re, you know, in north dakota somewhere to coffee shop, you have to shut down all of their access to things. So all of that needs to be planned at the level in the company. What are you going to do and how you handling staff with remote devices ? Can we do this if we don’t have a dedicated staff person ? And we don’t have a dedicated staff person ? Yes, face-to-face so the family says the answer is yes, okay, because are you know, we’re small and midsize non-profits in this audience, listeners. So you you on board someone with technology when they leave, you do the same thing on lee with a virtual person, you don’t physically have them there, and so you have to do the same thing you would do if someone was in the office, but make sure you couldn’t do it while they’re not physically there. How did they get your computer back to you ? Do they fedex it to you ? Are you going to go pick it up somewhere if they’re not there ? And so just those types of things need to be thought through, okay ? No. Excellent. I love the policy statement details because this is stuff you have to think through, and then alice to your point, has to be activated, implemented on from the top absolutely can’t just have a policy and ignore it. You know, if if it’s the ceo hyre it’s a sea level person whose whose distant you know, they too have to say, i got your e mail and i’ll get back to you by wednesday, everybody has to play by the same rules. There shouldn’t be exceptions or any accommodations or anything else. Yeah. Okay, um, how about let’s talk about some of the needs that your remote staff has we’ve been talking about managing the office ? What what special needs to the people ? But we only see a couple of times a year that’s a great question, okay ? I mean, i think they way it took that long, they need community, they need a partner, they need a buddy, they need to know that they’re not all alone. I’m so frequent meetings daily standup calls on dh heather’s organization native oppcoll standup called well, it’s a it’s, a phrase for a daily time when you just spend fifteen minutes sort of roll going around the company’s saying who’s doing what that day or our a team, if you’re working on a project together, you know everyone’s together on either a video chat or a conference call, or it could even be during us dahna slack channel or a skype group or a google hangout, or any type of technology that people can come together for a period of time. The more frequent that happens, the more connected they feel, and there is an issue of feeling lonely, it’s not that you’re just going off on your back room and typing all day long on your own, you need to be part of a community and part of a team. And the technology helps enable that. And heather’s organization there’s you do ? What is it a buddy ? So anyone who is new who comes on board there’s a couple things we do one is, no matter what level you’re at, you come to boston for a couple days, toe on board. You actually see physical people that’s probably essential. It’s, really ? It was one of like he learnings when i started working virtually is to know that there’s a physical person and a physical space or just seeing meeting someone face-to-face gives you much more of a connection to them immediately. The other thing we do is when we hire people we kind of give them we give them a partner. So we hyre associate director her in l a and we put them with the associate director in atlanta. This is not a mentor. This is not a supervisor. This is someone you can ask the dumb questions too. Like, how do i get my expenses paid ? Or i’m sure they told me this during orientation, but i don’t know what. To do about x, y and z and just having that person that you know you can go to is critical, especially when you’re by yourself in an office or in your home, and you’re trying to go up the learning curve of starting a new job. Okay ? All right ? What else ? Uh, anything else to be a empathetic to our remote employees again, this is a typical management. I would say this you should be doing this any time is just everyone’s intent is good. Assume that is good and there’s a good intent all all the time. That could be that that that’s going to have implications for chatting any female ? No, you can’t you’ll never hear the well, not never, but most of the communications you’re not going to hear the inflection in the person you don’t see the sometimes you don’t see the physical, you don’t see the physical, you don’t get the inflection, and so before you jump into anything or someone sent and i get this all the time and sends me an email and says i need blank, well, that could be taken in so many different ways. Are you demanding something from me did ice not get you something there’s so much in just those three words ? And so my first thing is tio okay, they have good intentions. Let me follow-up you need blank by when ? What is this for ? Get mohr information, they’re not now. They could be like you haven’t done something, i need it now and could be screaming it could be screaming at you with the default is the default is not do that and what we do actually, as we have everyone’s created communications charter that says how they like to be interacted with. And so i understand if you are one of these people who sends very short emails, i also have the flipside where someone sends me seven paragraph emails to describe one thing. And so if i understand how you interact, i could read that email with that understanding, not teo immediately assume that you’re yelling at me in the e mails. Excellent. Okay, very valuable. Are anything else ? Anything else to be supportive again ? Empathetic to the remote employees if we covered it, recovered it ? But i want to make sure we’re the only other thing i can think of is definitely getting together at least once a year with the whole team culture building wants that, yeah, it’s tough, it’s, tough in a non-profit environment where you’ve got a very tight budget, but we have prioritized and all in person meeting in boston, so we’ve got staff in california, in chicago, in atlanta and philadelphia. We make sure that we try in our budgeting process to bring everyone to boston for two days during the summer, not only for good brainstorming and thinking and strategy conversations, but also so they can connect with each other and have that community and build that in person conversation and feel comfortable with each other, and you feel like once a year is sufficient, you know, if i had the budget to do it more, i want a little longer, but all of that, yes. And so you have to take it for one of the that the tools that we talk about is the airplane. I mean, yes, it’s expensive, but it’s a really helpful tool to really get past some of the boundaries that are put up when you don’t actually physically meet in person. Alice, do you have a virtual employees also ? Jackson river, thirty thirty. Thirty. Revoting entire organization is ritual. Oh, my god. Okay, where’s, the is there a physical office ? There is a physical office with three people in washington d c yeah, but so we all behave as if were virtual. And there are many days that i don’t go into the office so in it. So you know, it saves a lot of money and transportation costs. It stays dry cleaning bills for everyone. It saves child care expenses. If you know it’s a very great way to have a lifestyle. Because yu yu have that flexibility, there’s also downsides to it. There are days that i wake up in the morning at six a, m and check email and all the sudden it’s too. And i haven’t eaten breakfast yet. And then i’m until six at night. So you know it’s a the same type of work-life integration needs to happen in a virtual environment as well as a physical office space. You know, you need to know how to take a break. You mentioned saving childcare expenses. So so the the remote employee it needs to be understood that the remote employee may not be immediately accessible right for a quick, you know, for for a last minute way gotta talk right now. So i think it’s about have something going on that is going to hold him up for ten or fifteen way try and make sure that people have adequate coverage to do their job during the day, the hours that they need to work. So we have a lot of employees that are at thirty hours a week because they want to spend more time with their families. Um, older children can be met at the bus stop and take care of themselves for a few hours in the afternoon, but the expectations of performance are still there. You know, we’re pretty high street standards of that, you know, we don’t want you to be distracted from your work. He managed the west coast versus east coast. Well, what is the west coast people have to do ? The westfield people have to start at six a m local time. I think a lot of people do different policies on that. Our policy is that you work for the day that work the business day in the time zone in which you live. So it’s, sometimes hard if we’re dealing with europe and the west coast at at the same time because the time zones i don’t overlap is, well, every boy’s in europe, we don’t have employees in your body to have clients in europe. So it’s ah it’s a situation where we have to manage that, but there are organizations that have west coast people working east coast, ours you have that way don’t have explicit policy that you work those hours, but we ask people how early on the west coast, how early would you be willing to have a meeting ? So we will not set meetings with some people ? Some people are early morning people and they would rather work from seven to three rather than nine to five, and so we’ll work with your schedule individually and so we so there are some meetings i will have on the west coast is seven o’clock in the morning, but that’s due to that person willing to do that, we have a few minutes left still let’s talk about some of the tech tech tools back-up that was i gotta ask you about slack. But what ? Black dot com how ? Do we find it or what you do for us ? Blackbaud comets, how you find it, you know, it’s it’s equivalent to skype or there’s google chat any type of chat software where everyone can log into and then there’s you can make groups in them. So the term for a group in slack is called a channel. And in our organization we have a channel for one of the channels is named lunch and if you’re going to be away for twenty minutes are going to lunch. We just take we just like everyone who’s in the company on that channel and say, hey, stepping away for a bit, i’ll be back in half an hour so we are all know it’s almost a cz though you would see me walk out the door, you know, and i instead of walking out the door i’m just telling that channel what’s happening there’s channels for each project also. So slack is a good one. Scott argast black is already a verb. Just like someone you’d like someone it’s a verbal. You skype someone you trust someone. Do you remember a well, instant messenger ? That that was a one man was that you could use that well, i was. But okay, so slack for for chatting. A quick, quick chat about document sharing is simple google docks or something better. It’s a simple a school back and microsoft has a great year. We have this product microsoft’s one dr sharepoint microsoft suite has has a document sharing software. Ah, cloud based saving system skype is now skype for businesses and integrated with it. And so we’re using that in the office and then there’s there’s a ton of independent ones out there. And it’s, whether it’s, videoconferencing or it’s document sharing or it’s chatting there’s a ton out there. And i think it could be overwhelming. And for us it was evaluating what was best for our organisation and what our upper management was able. Teo use we talked about this before is modeling the behavior you want from your staff and so getting upper management on board was key. So one of our project management software we use a sauna, and we’ve tried three or four of them and our ceo like hassan, and so if she was going to use a sauna, we’re all going to use this on you and so i think that’s really important. It’s got to be easy to use and work for your organization. Calenda ring simple is good calendar ring, yet you have any other tools besides google calendar ? We’re using outlooks calendar. Yeah, okay. Microsoft again. Yeah. All right. I think what other categories we need. Teo a video chat video is really important to scrape. A couple couldn’t do one on video with skype you khun duvette dio with google hangouts, but any time you can actually have an opportunity to see someone’s face and most of the calls we try to do as videos on dh, we find that that works really well. River again, the sense of community and if you can’t get together, that’s almost the next best thing and video has come a long way. The technology is more seamless than ever before, and so at least you’re seeing the person you might not get all of the nuance of the physical that that’s in the room. But you can see it in emotion or you can see a reaction to something which is super helpful or their cat walking of the cat we could get a lot of pets walking in front of the camera while people are on video that’s gonna be a lot of fun to talk about cats, but, you know, you have thirty virtual employees. You have fun doing it. I mean, oh, it’s awesome. Oh, it’s completely awesome is i love it. And well, you know, the best thing is that that people have really formed strong relationships with each other, they when you ask them what they like most about working here is they say each other, they say the people i’m here because i have connected relationships with other people on the team and to be able to create a culture where people feel connected to each other in a remote environment is is like, that’s the thing i’m most proud of, anything we’ve ever done, it doesn’t have to do their software product or what we’ve done to impact non-profits is the fact that we’ve had a culture of people that have had a wonderful time working and doing productive, impactful things. Jackson river always had a largest proportion of employees virtual from the beginning, when the beginnings and the culture to start about about it in the family way started as a two and a half person organization in the same way got to probably about eight to ten people in the office. And then our growth took us into different cities and communities. And that’s when we became virtual because of the growth, and so were probably half in the office in boston. And then half of our staff is outside and there’s one or two people in a city by themselves. We’re gonna leave it there. Excellent. Very much. Thank you. Alright. They are heather martin, ceo of interfaith family and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. This interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. And this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Way. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with your nine ? Ninety or your brooks ? Are your brooks or your books of those books ? And brooks properly managed ? Well, i could help you with the books. Eyes financial oversight in place so that your money isn’t going to fly out the door over the brook talkto wagner, partner, eat huge tomb. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust him. He’ll be honest about whether wagner is able to help you. You know where to go. Wagner, cps dot com now, tony steak too. I was at the lou costello statue in paterson, new jersey. Remember lou costello of abbott and costello and who’s on first. So what’s the connection, i hope, you know what’s on first is you’ve got to know that i mean who’s on first. Now who’s, what’s on second. I don’t know’s on third. I hope you know what i’m talking about. The connection is you gotta have some sense of history because this this comedy routine and the abbott and costello you they were from the forties, and if you want to be really successful, implant giving and you going to be actively talking to planned giving donors, you need to have some sense of history from the forties or fifties and vietnam. My video is that tony martignetti dot com now it’s time to map your data to your audience. Nces, welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference day two we’re kicking off our date to coverage with courtney clarke and david mask arena all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits courtney clarke. Hello. Hello to you. Welcome. Let me give you a proper introduction. David, you could say hello. Hello, david. Mastering it from the convent and hilton foundation introduced himself. All right, david happens to be the digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. And courtney clarke is managing director of user experience forum one. Welcome. Good morning. Thanks for having us kicking off. Thanks for kicking off with us. Hey, happy to be here. You’re workshop topic is data and audience connecting to create impact. Okay, let’s, start with you. David. What do you think ? Non-profits aren’t getting quite right in this subject. Like, why do we need this workshop ? To be honest with you, tell you, please beyond yeah, don’t wear really blunt with the arika there’s a lot of data collection that’s happening in the nonprofit sector, but people don’t really do anything with it. There’s like a statistics where it’s like a very, very small percentage of non-profits you do something with data ? And, you know, for example, there’s so many data points that in any day, that non-profit collectibe we have overload, i mean, really was data over there’s like there’s, like this just beautiful dash was like, what do we do with this ? You have to stay close to michael, okay ? All right, so we’re overloaded. So courtney, what we’re trying to do and have you had your workshop yet ? Yes, we had it yesterday, so you’re on the downside. Yeah, this is easy for you. So what you were doing and then ? And what we’re going to do now is trying make sense of data that well don’t feel overloaded. Well, it’s, it’s mostly around communicating data and really being clear about who your audiences are when you’re doing that cause we have identified five different data, sort of consumers or data people who will consume your data, but they all need different amounts of information, different formats. So for example, like a data consumer, this is like an interested person in the public. Maybe they’re a news consumer. They don’t have a lot of domain knowledge always, and they don’t have a lot of data skills, so what, you’re giving them is going to be very different than, say, a policy maker or a date. A producer. Okay, someone who’s more in depth in the details of it already knows, has has a yeah, you’ve identified let’s. Take it from there. We’ve identified five different audiences. Is that right ? That’s ? Different, different types of audiences. Okay, what are what are the five ? We should start there. Yeah. That’s okay, what ? Five ? I’ll start. Okay. The next one. So data consumer two and then three e before there’s a ping pong tournament here. But we’re not. We’re not going out today. Okay, fair enough. So first is i mentioned the data consumer. This is i hate it when people say general public, because here you’re not really targeting everyone in the whole world. So let’s be a little bit more specific news consumers, people who are already interested a little bit. Okay, okay. Like i said, not a lot of dough mean knowledge. Not a lot of data skill. What you’re calling this group the data consumer. So this is the person you’re like scrolling through your news feed you’re looking at your phone. Ahn, do you see an instagram ? Post or something on facebook, or even in the press in the news. And what do you see ? You see an infographic that’s, simple right language that’s easy to understand. The point is very clear. That’s for the data consumer. They don’t have a lot of power, but there are a lot of those people. Okay ? Hey, name another one. The next one is the data actor. So this is who everybody is targeting. This is decision makers, policymakers on dh. These folks may have some domi. Knowledge may have a lot of durney domain knowledge, but they don’t have time. So even if they do have dana skills, the ability to analyze and understand massive amounts of data didn’t have time to do that. They have analysts who are helping them do that sort of thing. But very important people. They have the staff, they have the cloud. They have our policymakers decision. Is that right ? Yeah. Okay. Okay, david, just give us our remaining three. So, of course, to consume someone has to share it. So you got a date ? A promoter. So these were the bloggers he got you get the journalist. The advocacy for folks. This software developers, the entrepreneur. So these people are the ones who are, like projecting that data out there so that the consumer and the actor be able to see that. And then you have the analyst, which is very, very important a lot. You missed this one too. It’s, like now i have all these data is beautifully being shared out being read, who in a way is a domain expert, this staffer that’s going to be able to analyze and help advice, what to do with the data. And then finally, the researcher you got, you know, these air, the phd folks, these are you know, i was talking about like jin ho was their learning officer, that comet and hilton foundation she’s a researcher, and we recently did a site visit nairobi, kenya, for one of our grantees, shopko shining hope for community and they have rich, rich data they’re collecting around there, committing kibera and compare, by the way, is the largest of informal settlement in africa and think about, like, a size of, you know, central park in a compressor that seven thousand people and there’s so much data that they’re collecting about the community and helping them with their health care and, you know, with an education and such and community services in the way when she’s taught dana, she was just, like, drooling all over it. But she’s, like, i want to do something that and she’s such an academic she just wants to, like, basically designed something around it. So these air, like the data modelers is with the academics of phd folks that will help let’s take the data to a new level. Alright, much so our audience is small and midsize. Yeah, non-profit twelve thousand. So we’re talking a lot of people there in small, small and midsize shop. Yeah, they need to identify which of these audiences they’re talking to some some may never be talking to to the researcher, right ? Or the or the data actor. They might not be doing lobbying, so they may not be. So you have to identify which audiences you’re talking to, right ? You guys hear me ? Okay. And your headsets ? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. I don’t hear myself too well, but as long as you hear me, ok, you have to identify who you’re talking to you and then okay, so so i guess we’re going to get through now there are different data needs different ways of conversing about data with data to each of these different audience that’s right ? You don’t have that, right ? Yes, we’re mapping needs and method to the five different audiences and the knowledge that they have tio and the time, right ? So i mentioned the policymaker. They may have some expertise. They don’t have time right on time, don’t time like the researcher. Whereas the researchers, like, get out of my way. Just give me the spreadsheet, all query my own database, okay ? And then also in the spirit of being totally honest, so they have to be honest with yourself who you’re going to deliver the data to, like. If it’s your board, it’s your board and it’s. Okay, you know, and some people are like, oh, this is only for one very specific orders and that’s. Good, you know, because they’re being very, very honest with yourself. Okay, very good. So let’s, start with the ones that are most likely for a small and midsize not to be talking. So certainly data consumer. Yeah. That’s your nose. Your nose could be your donors. I know you’re not calling your donor’s, maybe even just board members. Okay ? Data actor. Maybe it could be any decision maker that could be your board as well. It could be. It could be your boss. It could be somebody who is influencing budgets influencing programming. This is the person who has the power to make a change. So it’s therein you figure out which ones were going teo so they’re they’re in data promoter. That could be a journalist. Yes. Right. So that’s potential. The analyst remind me. What’s what’s the likelihood of a small mid size shot talking to the analyst sometimes yeah, for smaller medium non-profit portable. Forget it. Yeah, yeah. Bonem altum but scale that xero scales up now we’re not going right. We’re not going treatable, but let’s, just talk about it, okay ? I think what i think what’s different, though, for smaller midsize non-profits is that the people listening may be the ones doing the analysis themselves. They may not have a supper analyst. Okay. Yeah, and many came from currently hilton foundations. They get smaller foundation. And a lot of us were multiple hats. So someone might be liberta both, but yet, yet they still move every important. Okay ? They’re all in. Okay ? Yeah. All right. So what do we do for the data consumer ? How do we have a retailer to that audience ? Yeah. They’re a couple of key things. That’s. What we need. Yeah. So one is use plain language when you’re communicating to them, they may not know who you are, what you do, why it matters. Plain language is really key. Sometimes people get a little too marketing me. Sometimes they get a little too research. E you need to be able to say what you want to say in a really simple visual with some simple language like you’re talking to your friends. Yeah, we were at a dinner party. You’ve got ten seconds to explain what this is and what matter-ness schooling for. Graphic. That will do it for you or something like that, right ? Or even just like a data point point. Okay, we got to take a break. Tell us, for pete’s sake, think of the companies you can refer and start asking them that’s the first step. Well, actually, the first step is watching the video. Then you start referring the companies and talking. To them, you’ve heard the testimonials from the charity’s. You’ve heard the testimony from the companies. It’s. Time to get that long stream of passive revenue for yourself. Start with the video. That is the first step video. Is that tony dot, m a slash tony tello’s. Now back to courtney clarke and david mask arena from eighteen. Ntc what’s. The summary. Yeah, and a couple of that with something you mentioned visually could be motion. Could be a visual visualization of data. It could be a story. It could be a video that couples with the data because just it’s. Just a lot more impact for when you, when you when you pair it, but okay, let’s, start to make sense. Your data consumer is gonna be a lot more interesting story then your analyst or your research eggs ? Absolutely. And during our session yesterday, there are people in the audience who talked. We talked a lot about how we paired data with stories because the narrative makes it so much more riel, it elevates the people that are actually being affected by this data. So there were some great stories about that. Okay, okay. Back-up let’s, go to the well, anything else about the consumer ? I mean, this is this is this is probably our largest constituency. Yeah, so i think the other thing is to be clear about what action you want them to take because your data should support that action don’t just and and actually that came up from an audience member yesterday who said people weren’t being moved by the data and so that’s why they started pairing it with stories and once somebody gets hooked and they feel those heartstrings being cold or they feel that passion rise that’s when you gotta capitalize and be really clear what the action is, whether it’s donating, volunteering on asking for more information yeah, signing up for the male daughter, give us your new gives your email yeah, and think about the safety step back a little bit this like you have to identify goal, like whether you’re trying to accomplish with this data set and it would help you help you with to decide like what to share in how to share that welfare that’s always important place to start gold. What was the purpose of this, exactly what we’re trying to move people and then we try to move people to do and then be clear about exactly called. Okay ? That’s, right ? And the goal is the hardest part. Frankly, knowing the goal is the hardest part. It’s on so simple, but it’s like that ask why five times you got to get to the real root of why you’re doing this. All right ? We’re talking about our actor actor. Okay, refresh my recollection, who’s, this decision makers, policymakers, people who are going to make the change that you want, sir. Yeah. Okay. Okay. How do we talk to these people that data. So the format is briefings sometimes it’s in the form of a press release. They need, like, think about a policy maker who has a staff and maybe they have to vote on a bill or make a decision. The staff member is the one who’s calling non-profits calling agencies and saying what’s happening in my district around this topic. So being able to slice your data by topic and location is really valuable to these folks and getting this summary out and again the action. What ? Why does this matter and their actions going to be different than the consumer ? Usually you’re looking for a decision, a vote, something exactly what you want to say more about the actual, i think something that’s adjustable something that if you could package it for them, like staying here, the key takeaways from this a swell, you know, think of this, like, you know, you know, working the communications team. And, you know, we provide press kits for people. And if you could provided that, you know, so so they could easily digest and help, um, guide them through the decision making process, i think will be the key. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And i guess also keeping in mind you you may not be talking to the principal. Yeah, right, right. It could be a staff staff, something. Usually it is so it’s. Gotta be it’s. Gotta be so your your urine for always going through someone to the decision maker way don’t love that. Right ? Twice removed, twice removed from your there once removed from your data. Yeah, it happens. I mean, that’s what ? Any communication, though. Anytime you’re putting something out, somebody could take it. Andi at their own commentary around it. That’s what ? The data promoter that’s a that’s a benefit in a risk, right ? Because they could date a promoter could be multiplying. Your audience is your audience, but they could be putting their own message. They could be manipulating the data in a way that may not be true to it. But, you know, were you everybody has had, you know, that journalist didn’t get the quote quite right ? Yeah, you are taking over simplification exactly. If the press often has to do to make something interesting to readers, you know, put in a headline. Yeah, yeah, and the promoter should also think about, like, segmenting looking if they could do, like, a more targeted in a way, like, if they know specifically that they’re going to try to communicate. Teo, i think they’ll be the key as well. And you get to know your trusted data promoters, right ? You know, the journalists or the bloggers are the advocates who you trust, who you align with the messaging around. So identifying those folks or maybe you don’t know them and you do a little research and you find out who you are, where, wes, you need to know within your sector who the influencers are. Absolutely yeah, i get a little bit of research. Goes a long way. Yeah. Back-up how do you feel about the standard press release ? Since we’re talking about the audience of promoters, we’ll be sending it to either of you have, ah, opinion on press releases. Are they outdated there ? Some school of thought that press release is dead. But it’s it’s still being used is using it. You’re still using journalists say they ignore them. Yeah, andi, and honestly goes back to relationship building, you know, like in communications, that our primary key is build relationships with with journalists. So when our press release passes through their deaths, they’d be able to, like sick. Oh, let me take a look at this and then dig deeper into the story for us. Just a little more let’s. Talk about building a relationship with a journalist before you want them. Tio, take some action for you to write about you in to quote you on that day’s breaking news. Yeah. How do we build that relationship when we don’t have a need ? But, you know, we want to be in front of the person. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like i just it’s a good old fashioned relation building, you know, you have called them, reach out them email and called, you know, like you have no agenda, but i mean, this marketplace exactly you often cover way. Have coffee, exactly. What a concept. I mean, like, i’m also part of communications network conference, just another communications based non-profit unconference and a lot of journalists attend that and it’s a great opportunity, this plate, this form and ten is a another great form to meet people like i would add to that you need to be you need to understand that audience and you need to be curious about they have their own set of requirements that they’re trying to meet. They’ve got an editorial calendar there. Boss has told them what topics to focus on. They’re looking for. They need they need to youto help them connect the dots. So maybe don’t start with the ask, understand what they’ve been working on for the last month. What stories ? What topics ? And then being able to which, which, by the way, does not mean ask them what have you been writing me out ? It means doing your research before you do the outreach, so that you know, so that, you know, you’ve shown that, you know, you show that you’ve taken the time to know what their beat is exactly not just asking you what do you write about lately ? Well, it’s in the paper buy-in there dubai it’s on it’s, on the site, in the research, and then and then what are you working on next or what’s ? The story you’ve been dying to write that you haven’t had the chance to there’s always a good answer for that and there’s a great conversation starter, especially like imagine putting yourself in their shoes, you know, like someone just roundly wants to have coffee with you, but you have no idea who they are didn’t even do any sort of research like and, you know, you have very, very busy schedule, and you have multiple crowdster headlines like we just need to remember they’re people tio don’t waste their time any more than you would waste. Teo spend the time with a potential donor. Exactly ask them what you’re worth. You’re not gonna ask them things that you want to know already write, write, write what is it about our work that he loves ? Well. I’ve been giving to you for fifteen years, i think it’s, probably in my e-giving history, you know, don’t waste people’s time exactly, but but it is important to build relationships with exactly these influences. Okay, i would add to that there channels are largely on social media. If you talk to any journalists, they spend all their time on twitter. So if your twitter gene is not great it’s time it’s time. Learn what hashtags there using. Follow those channels, see who they’re following. See what they’re talking about. A great way to do research on also how to start to engage early on, even if it’s just observing. Okay. Okay. Very good. Okay, so i want you. I want to spend more time on that. I want to check my mike. Want to make sure that everything is good here. Okay, a little insecure about the way i sound. I don’t know. I sound you don’t sound good to me, it’s. Not okay to you, though, right ? It’s ? A little soft. Like i can hear myself. Really ? I could hear myself, teo. You don’t hear me. According to richard it’s. Not as clear. Yeah, in-kind okay. And give. Myself a lot more volume. All right, now, my too loud. Ok, it’s. Good. Allright. Thank you. Time for our last break. Hoexter give quote, i compared a bunch of companies in my search for it hoexter donate company and text to give is the best hands down. They have b been beyond helpful. I can’t imagine anyone doing this better exclamation mark end quote that’s lauren bouchard from global commission partners in clermont, florida. Satisfied ? She is with text to give you will be, too for info text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes, and here they are for map your data to your audiences. Let’s, continue the analysts. Right. Data analyst. Refresh our recollection. David who is this ? So this is the data expert this’s. The staffer that’s or consultant ? That would help be a read data. Okay, and analyze it for you, like they be in a foundation. Now. I like the way i sound better. Okay ? Like they’d be a foundation program, officer. It could be. Is that an example or no, i’m not necessarily. I mean, it could be a learning officer for the foundation meeting the one. Who’s like analyzing all the learning and data sets. Ok, he could be a data manager, you know, within an organization. Where would you ? Where would you put a program, officer out of foundation ? Someone who’s evaluating your grant proposal. Where ? Where would they fit in these audience ? Most like, i mean, it’s a little bit of both between the consumer and the actor, to be honest with you, because they’re both a decision maker. So they’re going to read the data and they’re also going to get this just like, okay, this is how my program is going and here’s how i’m going to act upon it. And here’s how i’m gonna adjust my strategy with it. Okay ? Yeah. All right. So, let’s, go back to the analyst. How do we, uh, david ? You keep going. What do we do with this ? How do we talk to the analyst with our data ? Go. No. Gosh, just give it all to them. Honestly, rod, they love him. They loved it. They love spreadsheets there. Said if they see a string of numbers, imagine like matrix type of thing. They’re like oh, my gosh, this is habit. Okay, okay. Yeah. It’s that simple ? Well, they have, i would add that they usually have the domain a knowledge. Do you think of a policy maker ? They haven’t education expert on staff or they may have an expert in international relations it’s that person who knows the domain quite well and feels comfortable digging through the data and furthermore to add to that, too is like if he providing which your goals and what your strategy is for and what they’re trying to provide the otherwise they’d be able to help you got guide you through the breeding process say more about that ? Yeah, what shit a little bit, so think of him like, you know, like, if i’m like, if i am se the heather communications in the foundation and i’m like, i’m gonna talk to a data analyst we’re trying to accomplish x can you help me read through this day that what types of data sets can leave first collect and what’s up days says comey can provide so they’ll be able to accomplish that goal, then they were able to narrow down because otherwise they could they could. You stand in any sort of ways, but if you provide some sort of direction or gold. They’re able to, like filter things a little bit better for you. Okay, yeah, very good. Really good. And our last left audiences the researcher buy-in courtney yeah, the researchers are get out of my way and give me this red sheet they the like they may scan through your infographic, your visualization, your query tool. But really, they’re going to build their own query tool. They’re goingto grab that they’re the ones who are in sequel making pivot table like they’re doing all of it. Okay, we have jargon jail on twenty sequel i think people will know, but i’m going to pivot table. Alright, excel itself. Okay, sorry, i’m taking a data analytics class so i’m learning this stuff, so i’m excited to be able to talk about it just dropping, dropping top, but, yeah, i imagine you’ve got an excel table that is so large that you can’t open it x l can’t open it. That is what these researchers are are working in and they’re very comfortable working in and they’re the ones who may even be collecting data as well as analyze sing it for themselves, so think of it like a like a layer deeper than unless they got analysts who may rely also some visualizations. And of course, like a deep amount of pressure. But these guys are like they’re just like neck or forehead, deep of like numbers and data, and they want to do everything themselves. Yeah, yeah. So one one important thing here we have worked on a number of data projects and for non-profits or foundations any group who wants to attract many of these audiences, the keeping with researchers is you have, like, the get data page or sometimes we’ll put it in the footer and it’s, like, just download the excel spreadsheet because i keep saying it, but you got to get out of their way. Just give them what they want, okay ? Okay. We have, like, another minute and a half or so do you have tools ? And, uh, in your description, you mentioned choosing the right data tools. Any tools we can introduce briefly that you like, i mean, to be honest and this is like, tio, you get off being out of keeping it will be really hash tag riel here, please place if you’re old website have google and alex installed. I mean, you’d be surprised how many webs are out there and smashing non-profits believe that twenty nine, twenty nine percent of them are using do or not. Okay, okay did not have google and licks and police bare minimum do that and they said, like have i think the fun ? Nothing is like have goals, you know, before it was like before you venture into the day the world ? Yeah, there is there’s a great study that every action did called the state of non-profit data. And you can it’s from twenty sixteen. But it’s a great read a page i recommended. Okay, we’re gonna leave it with we’ll leave it there without recommendation. All right, all right. They’re courtney clarke, managing director of user experience at forum one. And david mask arena digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. Courtney and david. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Pleasure. This interview along with all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you for being with non-profit radios coverage of eighteen ntc next week the buy-in bitches getting buy-in from your leadership. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing toe online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Bradunas cps dot com by tello’s, credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream. 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Nonprofit Radio for October 19, 2018: Your Tech RFPs & Donor Advised Funds

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Drew McManus & Ceci Dadisman: Your Tech RFPs
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Gene TakagiGene Takagi returns to discuss the pros and cons of this increasingly popular donation method that gets lots of press. It’s gifts for nonprofits, why all the fuss? We’ll find out. Gene is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law firm.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with sheer adoni sis, if i saw that you missed today’s, show your tech r f p s to tech providers from eighteen ntc reveal what they wish you knew about crafting your proposal solicitations plus a few secrets their colleagues wish they wouldn’t reveal. They’re drew mcmanus principle of venture industries online and sissy dad baizman from form and donor advised funds jean takagi returns to discuss the pros and cons of this increasingly popular donation method that gets lots of press it’s gets for non-profits where all the fuss we’ll find out. Gina’s, our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law firm tony take two a driving rant responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p wender cps guarding you beyond the numbers gregor cps dot com bye tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four four, nine, nine, nine here are drew mcmanus and cc data zeman from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference we are in the convention center in new orleans, nola, louisiana, and we’re kicking off our coverage with this interview. This interview, like all, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profit i’m very pleased to welcome for our kickoff interview. Drew mcmanus and cc dahna sametz drew is principal of venture industries online and cc is digital marketing manager four for money and your seminar topic is everything tech providers wish you knew about reading an r f p plus the stuff you want they want, plus the stuff they want to keep secret. All right, let’s hope that the conversation is shorter than the title. Welcome well thinking. Well, you’re very welcome, let’s start off cc i love you. I don’t know, i don’t know if viewers of the video are not gonna be able to see your pendant, so show that off. No, all that off. Put that on the mission in camp. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Very striking. Thank you. Why do we need this topic ? What’s what ? What’s not going right with peace ? Well, i think it a very basic level as non-profits we all need to do our peas at one point or another. Right ? And sometimes they can be a source of a little bit of trepidation for, to write and to sort of put out there to vendors. And we felt that this was a very timely topic to talk about to help ease people’s minds a little bit about that. And really give them some deeper information into the r f p process. Yeah, okay. Drew there’s, there’s trepidation people people are fearing this this process, right as a web developer, we get extremes there’s either trepidation where people don’t know how to approach it because they don’t feel comfortable with how to evaluate proposals. They don’t know what to ask for. They just don’t know how to kick the process off or on the other side of that. They have this extensive laundry list of things they think they want without really knowing even what they can can’t ask for or what i knew. Platforms and options are available. The r f p process really should be more involved with learning what you have and what can be. Okay, so that’s, what we’re gonna be talking about what you have and what can be so both of you are on the receiving end of a piece. Is that right ? From from non-profits currently, although i’ve spent most of my career working full time at non-profit organizations and as a consultant working on behalf of the non-profit for these kind of things. So that’s sort of how we’re approaching this drew is definitely on the vendor side, but my experiences is farm or on the non-profit side. Okay. Okay. So, let’s, stay with u c c your description promised tio pull back the curtain. What ? Pull back the curtain of how tech providers are crafting their proposals. Okay, with you right now, he’s. The current can you ? Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, i could talk a little about what’s behind this curtain. Yeah, i can talk about it a little bit from the from the non-profit side in creating the r f p you know, our peace can be a really big project, right ? They could be something has looked at that is that is very involved because you want to make sure that what you’re putting out there is is true to the project that you’re looking toa have completed, and you want to make sure all the right information is in there so that you get the right vendors because ultimately you want a good vendor experience. You had a good working experience and we want attracting the right exactly you want you want the right vendors toe look at that project and won a bid on it, and ultimately you want to find the best vendor for your particular organization on dso in this session, you know, we’ll talk a lot about, you know, really what needs to go in that r f p from the non-profit standpoint, it only in the session we’re going to sharing here, too, right here yet. Zoho back on non-profit radio listeners, i don’t know we’re going to be doing out here too, right ? Right now we are ok, we are right. So one of the big things that we’ll talk about from the non-profit standpoint is at a very basic level just being honest about what you need from this project to put into the r f p, you know, bring all of your assets together, bring your team together before you even start writing the r f p to, you know, figure out what you really want let’s say it is, you know, a website project. You know what ? You really want this website to do what you want, tohave it, what you want to have contained in it. You know what your delivery bals are, what type of conversions you’re looking at so that you can start the process out where everything is sort of laid out on the table before you’re even starting to write the r f p and then as you go through the r f p process, making sure that all of those things are in there so that you know it’s full disclosure for the vendors, okay, what i what should we have in place before we start typing words into r r r f what does stick with you ? Ok, the big things to have in place are number one, the team that is going to be working on this project and have a point person assigned. For the project and that’s a really big thing, making sure that there is somebody responsible for communicating with the vendors about the project, who, you know is going to make the time and the energy commitment to do that, and also gathering together all of the information that needs to go in the website, whether that’s text or photos, multimedia files, whatever that might be bringing all of getting all of that together because ultimately your vendor will need that you’ll have to give it to them eventually, so might as well do it right off the bat, and then you need to gather together all of your other sort of software providers. You know, any other piece of tech that might touch that website ? So if you have, you know, a fund-raising cr m ifyou’re in arts and culture organization, and you’re selling tickets to shows, you know that that software is well, you know, your email marketing software, whatever those things are that need to interact with that website in some way getting all of those things together. Okay ? It’s, time for a break pursuant they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and good practices to your non-profit it’s free as all the pursuant resource is our it’s on the listener landing page. You know where to find that it’s tony dot m a slash pursuing the capital p for please now back to your tech or f p’s drew let’s, go to you. Who should be the point person ? Who’s the right person were now our listeners small and midsize non-profits so i’m gonna assume there is no director. Ok, correct. We should be in charge of this process. Dede was sisi was describing. I knew that was gonna happen that way. Have a dd coming later. I’ll answer to it. It’s not here. Now, it’s actually, cee cee cee is with us who should be in charge for most organizations is going to be the marketing director or the vp of marketing that’s typically the person who ends up becoming the point person because they’re going to be the gatekeeper for most of the content architecture that sisi was talking about. And so that’s usually a decent person to be able to be the point to contact oh, and process the art piece that are going to come in, you know, i’m one year earlier questions you had toss to see see about, you know, the things that we’re looking, i didn’t metoo i’m not gonna look at me, i’m gonna beat it up. Now i gotta beat it up now, so i focus on myself, okay ? On my my mistakes. I know it’s just but being able to actually educate non-profits into the things that they need to realize before they even start soliciting our peace and won the big ones is that that tech provider world, especially web development, is in a massive state of flux. Right now, there are really two large competing schools of how to go about being a service provider, which there’s the traditional old school model of you. Give us the specs, we build this for you, and then it’s yours. Hand it over, enjoy it. Yeah, and then there’s mohr of the annual license fee model. There are one ofthese for things like design and development programming, that kind of stuff. But then there’s an ongoing relationship that provides training support. I like to call it attrition insurance because you’re going in insurance, attrition, insurance, you’re going to have people who are going to turn over, and you need whoever comes in to be able to talk to someone who has some kind of institutional knowledge about that online presence, at least and that’s really not even just a non-profit but in the tech sector, especially that’s been around for years now, it’s almost expected oh, and it’s still a new concept to non-profits and so even understanding when they start soliciting are of peace, they could get some very radically different ideas coming in, and if they’re not prepared for it, you might out of hand, just toss something else that could actually be your better solution. Do latto on doing a lot of nodding ? Yeah, yeah, i mean exactly what drew just said about non-profits are used to this in terms of websites, the subscription model type of thought where, you know, you might pay a maintenance fee, monthly or yearly two, your web developer but really, i think for this particular industry, that is the way to go because there is so much turnover in terms of staff and knowing that you have someone there at all times to, you know, sort of help out, you know, god forbid something breaks or, you know, maybe you just have a question that there is somebody there at all times that can really take care of that. This industry, maybe more than others, should be using that sort of dahna i’m surprised to hear that non-profits air not acquainted with this attrition problem, i mean, they have it in having a crime, i mean, certainly in fund-raising where i mostly you’re saying that they’re not factoring that into this process, exactly, exactly there not really thinking about how that relates to their web presence and also having, you know, a monthly maintenance contract or yearly can be very helpful, even just when you need a little thing fixed or changed usually non-profits will go out and you don’t try to find, you know, a one off kind of developer project or, you know, hyre a freelancer to do something and and once you have, you know, all of these different people that are going in there and touching your website at any one time, ultimately that’s sort of going to dilute the integrity of the website so it’s best to just be able to keep with one person who really knows it in it. Out now, i highlighted. Beautiful necklace pendant. I want to highlight drew’s vest, very dapper vest and pocket square. Now, i am not to be outdone. Pocket squares, but yeah, exactly. Undo that. Drew is the king of the waistcoat. He has a warrior he’s, a waistcoat warrior hashtag waistcoat warrior he’s got a waistcoat for every occasion, and he looks damn good in them. Thank you very much for your marriage. You know each other. You know, it’s outside, outside the professional realm way. Do we’ve been friends for a very long time. And actually, one of the first ways that we met was doing a session. You contacted me to a website session. But when c z was a marketing director at the palm beach opera, they became client of mine, and they’re still clients. Oh, and we worked together on a number of sessions and mostly in performing arts based conferences. But yeah, way. Have a good report. Okay, show’s. Awesome. I love that this is a great energy. Great five kickoff kick off our coverage of auntie. Easy. Okay, drew let’s, stay with you. Something else that sisi mentioned next in the sequence. Gathering the right information that belongs as a part of this or ft flush out out more that’s the perfect question to ask yeah, number question number eight is it took me a while, we’ll slow out of the gate. Oh, it’s, just a number eight it’s one the best ones, because that’s also one of most difficult, because when organizations look at their content, i mean, they look at the stuff that they’re familiar with and what they know. So the actual copy, the media co-branding elements and that’s something that they tend to do fine with but where we encounter groups, having the most trouble is when they have to actually get all that information from point a to point b, meaning that let’s say they have a system built on julia or even wordpress, which is what we use in its open source. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s easy to extract the data depending on how that web site was originally built previously. And if in order to say what kind of data we’re talking about trying to get out, it could be anything from more complex information like customer data or event information there an event driven organization if they sell tickets. There’s all kinds of event. Meta, which are little bits of data, like the starting time, the location to find these terms. Because we have jargon. Jail on non-profit mirriam would hate to see you behind bars, but you live served time. You have. Not on this show. I don’t allow it. So you described it. You defined it quickly. Okay, so, yeah, little bits of data that right ? And so that they don’t know that that getting that from point a to point b isn’t a simple as doing, like a simple export. There’s no standardized format for something like a vent data. Even though google and apple have their own standards, it only covers a few bits of metal, so being able to move that might actually require a substantial amount of time and effort that they had no idea it was needed. But worse didn’t budget for, and that could sometimes be the most expensive element dahna project outside of something like developing an ap i connection to something like sales force or cr m or any kind of outside donor-centric connection between your data and some other outside latto yep, it’s the language that allows to different platforms to be able to talk to each other in the same language as opposed to having, you know, something in german trying to talk to someone in russian. Okay, now, how does it now ? I made you tigress thought your fault. How ? Does this all relate back to what belongs in our f and that’s ? Just it ? Those are the things that providers in my position usually don’t tell clients in advance because they well, do they even know i mean at the art of the stage ? Well, that’s just it most non-profits don’t they didn’t ask for that. But the provider doing replying to the r f p at that stage probably doesn’t even know that level of detail, do they ? They should, and they should be asking, and not every provider does that this goes into the heart of this stuff they don’t want you to know about the process is going to be iterated we’re not not just foisting an art of pee on a bunch of vendors, and then they return it within within this by the specified deadline. But there’s a there’s a back and forth there’s a community there. This conversation there should be questioning that’s a beautiful way to put it and that’s one of things that were going to be talking about is the r f in the traditional sense that we’re talking about way are is that the old school ? Throw out the laundry list of things that you want and get it back is not probably going to be in your best interest. We’re going to be talking about some alternative methods, which will be including project evaluations. We are talking about project evaluation, and a project evaluation is different than our pee. In that you will usually pay someone a small fee, a developer, aura potential provider to look at all of this stuff for you, and then be able to give you a legitimate fair estimate of what it cost will be. Okay, so that that’s sort of. Leading into your r f or is it in place of it could go in both one of the options is a migration where i’m sorry, ah, hybrid model where that can then let them build a detailed, accurate r f or they can use that as just the basis of being able to move forward after they’ve looked at a couple of groups to narrow down to a shortlist based on reputation and previous work. Ok, and this can only be good, really, for the non-profits because in this process, you get to know the developers who are responding to this r f p and, you know, that can help you choose what the right relationship might be, you know, rather than just saying, oh, well, these people look great, and there are f p submission looks great, but you don’t really know them. Yeah, all right, so we’re holding hands before we sleep together. Exactly. Get way. Get going. We’re going on a few dates before we sleep together. Okay, look on dating apps. A great wayto use that analogy. That’s. One of the things we have in the session that we’re talking about here now. Thank you. Is that if you wanted to go online and find someone to date and you just have a laundry list that’s called tinder ? If you actually want to find someone that you want to have a relationship with that’s that’s an entirely different story and shoot it might be in harmony, i would like to know the harmony, harmony, scientific that’s, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Profiles are more detailed, nothing no yeah, that i know from experience. I’ve heard. I’m happily married on dh, not on any any dating site. In fact, i’m happily married has nothing to do with other dating sites. That’s. True, i don’t know. I don’t see a ring, you know, you’re right, i don’t know. My wife has what she’s here, but we don’t wear rings right on. But, yes, i see your true oh, she’s on she’s, yes, okay, showing you just take that truth, okay ? So what was that ? Aggression ? Okay, all right, so so we’re dating, all right ? So how do we find the people who the potential vendors who could be valuable to us either for this project evaluation or for our f p how do we know where to send this thing ? We’re jumping around a bit, but listeners are accustomed to that that’s a good question, how do how do we know that’s actually really good question, and i know that, and i know that drew will have some thoughts, too, but if your friend on for non-profit that doesn’t really have a lot of experience in doing this kind of thing. I think the first thing to do is to reach out to colleagues for other organisms from other organizations who have recently been through a website, redesign or development project, or maybe you don’t even know them, but maybe it’s a non-profit or another organization that has a website that you like, reach out to them and see who did it see with their experience with and then also utilizing any sort of membership organizations or associations that you might be involved in convene helpful like a f p or a or p r s a and ten more any of those only, like number three any of those. And only after i prompted you. All right, let me sample warning would have been on my list. Trust me. Hyre where ? Seven it’s not there’s, no value. Nobody’s listening that yes, people listen. So all right, so i think that would be the first laurel referral to someone who did something you like or from among your or from among your professional network, including professional associations. Yeah. Putting. And i think putting it out there that you are looking for someone is really good as well. Even just on your social media on your linked in that hay, whether it’s personal or professional or both. Hey, we are looking to redo our website. Does anybody have any ? You know, recommendations, people you love people you worked with that you don’t love you no stairway from this kind of thing. Okay ? Do you have more ? That that’s a great way to go about it. I would say when you go the social media route or a public rout beep prepared for the onslaught. Yes, because there will be plenty of people who are in business development, we’re going to look for those sort of things reach out to you. The only thing i’ve really add to that is looking at other sites that you like as a starting point. You look at that that face is it pretty ? Do i like it ? Do i enjoy how it worked as faras the interaction and the user interface ? And if there’s, ah, website credit at the bottom, which not all sites do, but if there is, then start to reach out to those organizations. But most importantly, when you go to their websites, you want to try to find someone that has as much information about process as in the results because it’s the process that what we’ve been talking about here that really develops that relationship, that build a successful lives, you’re because you’re successful outcome ? Yeah, absolutely. Ok. Yes. You don’t want to just focus well said you want to focus on how great the site looks. It works. But was was it held to get here ? May not be worth it. It may not have been worth it. Is it a mistake to send out a dozen or of peas. I mean, is there an optimal like there ? Max, i don’t need. I don’t want to hear from fifteen vendors. I can’t r or just can’t process that much. Cc what’s. Your advice around how many descent ? I think that i don’t think that it’s a bad thing to get a lot back, i think in this kind of situation, because there aren’t there aren’t a ton, ton ton of developers that work with non-profits to start out with, you know, with some other types of businesses where you might get an onslaught of r f piece from web developers non-profits air a little bit lucky in that, you know, it’s going to be a relatively smaller number just to start out with, but i do think that it’s better to sort of see what your options are and that’s an important part of this process because what i find is a lot of non-profits when they’re doing a website project, they may be stuck, quote unquote stuck with a certain solution because they didn’t know what their other options were, and they were they were working with a developer aura developer was recommended to them that is saying, you know, this is the way that you need to do x, y and z and not that that’s a bad way, inherently, but maybe not the best way for that particular organization, but they just went with it because they didn’t know what there are other options were. So i’m more of the mind that the more sort of information that you have and it is it is a pretty good thing. Okay, so you don’t want to put our backs on it. Andi it’s likely to be a small number anywhere you’re saying, because right, and you’re going to sort of tear those things down. So once you get the first group of them, then you’re immediately going to be able to see, okay, yeah, these were not interested in so here’s, my smaller core group that we’re really going to look at, you know, and then from there, okay. We still have a few minutes left together, drew let’s talk about something that’s related to this development versus legacy costs. How does that relate to this sort of process and what listeners need to know about development versus legacy cost everything they don’t know, which is everything, and it is the biggest issue moving forward for non-profits is if you’re a non-profit like a performing arts organization, they already have a really good idea of what legacy cost is with labour expenses because their labor intensive organizations there’s no way to avoid that. Websites and technology platforms in general are starting to become mohr like that there’s, a minimum legacy threshold, cost wise from an expensive perspective that is increasingly going up because of how much organizations are relying on those platforms, but they don’t traditionally look att them from that perspective because of that one off here’s your website. Now i’m gone. We’re talking about the ongoing costs of maintaining the site exactly, but it’s not just maintaining the site, is maintaining that the ap i connective ity all the software in the scripts that make things do what they do change at haste, that is far more. Rapid than it used to be that’s a great example. Sites are goingto break connections, yes, and what other things are legacy costs that the last thing, the biggest one the next one is going to be with regard to how responsive design functions and responsive design is when you see a website on a desktop, as opposed to on a smartphone and everything shifts around so it looks better on a smartphone that works better. The underlying technology that makes all that work is also in a hyper state of developed and that’s, constantly changing. So it’s and it’s constantly changing to keep up with changes and things like iphones, they come out with new specs and new dimensions, and thing’s called media query thresholds change. So all the rules that go into how stuff shifts around has to change. And if your website or your online platform is a couple of years old, it may already be behind the times and not working well on those devices, even though you thought it originally was designed to do that. Now, listener’s, you’re gonna want to know that i did hear drew say the media query threshold we don’t have enough time to flush that out. So i’m gonna get you gonna get passed, it’s one of fury’s, everything but i’m letting this one go, but i did notice do not do not think that i didn’t catch it, okay ? And then sisi, why don’t you explain the different mean, what ? Drew was just describing those legacy costs and development costs, which i think is pretty commonly understood, but that’s just right, right ? So your development costs that’s really going to be, you know, the money that you’re putting out to make the site right in that first project to actually create what you’re trying to dio and it’s, i love that we’re talking about this because from an organizational perspective, it’s really important to keep a line item in there somewhere and some money in it for those legacy costs, you know, because a lot of times we’re just looking at it and say, okay, well, you know, it’s going to cost x amount of dollars to build the site and then that’s it or, you know, we’re given, you know, we get a grant for it or were given money from a donor to build the site or something like that and it’s looked at as just sort of a one off. You’ve got to think about keeping money in a line item for these ongoing kinds of things and also the developer that you’re working with. Khun give you a good sense of how much money that might end up being, depending on the functionality of your sight, because that’s really going to vary from site to site and from organization to organization. Okay, i should got they should another should from drew. All right, we gotta leave it there. This is twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. I’ve been talking to drew mcmanus principle of venture industries online and cc dat baizman digital marketing manager at form. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc and this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with accounting or your nine ninety thinking about a change of accountants ? Time to get a fresh opinion. Check out witness. Cps dot com start there. Then talk, you know. The partner to talk to you, eat each tomb. He’s been on the show, he’s a good guy. I trust him. He’ll be honest about whether they can help you. Regular cpas. Dot com. Now time for tony’s, take two. I do a lot of ah long distance driving about twelve hundred miles every month, or or every six weeks on dh. I’ve got a couple things. Ah, couple things on my mind about that, that i’ve, that i’ve seen that ah, bother me. So the video talks about three of them. I was for here. I feel like the one i wanna talk about is getting gas. The gas lanes in ah, in a gas station are for getting gas and for cleaning your windshields on when you’re cleaning your windshield, that doesn’t mean wash your car with the squeegee that means clean the winter came the glass certainly get your glass nice and clean. Fill up the gas. Take your time doing all those things don’t trip don’t spill any gas, you know, dribbles over anything, nothing like that, but when you’re done, get out of the gas lane and park that car. Don’t be the person sitting still in the gas lane while you’re going to get iced tea. There’s a couple more rants along with that one on the video at tony martignetti dot com now time for gene gene the law machine you know who i’m talking about ? Of course. Well, who else would it be ? Jean takagi, the managing partner of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s, the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding. Non-profit lawyer he’s jean takagi he’s at g tak. Welcome back, jean. Thanks, tony. How are you ? I’m doing very well. How are you this afternoon ? I’m doing very well, feelingood out there. Good. Good. I’m glad. Um, i’m overdue for a visit. I need to i need to come see you on the west coast. The ads actually the perfect time that we’ve got some nice weather. It’s a little cooler earlier this summer. But we’re headed out towards cem. Cem a nice weather at the end of september and october. September, october. There are good months. You’re right. I know, i know. I’ve heard that from others. I’ll get there because it was, like twenty. I think twenty fourteen may have been the last time was that when we met, i think it was twenty fourteen the time we met, i think quite awhile. Yeah. Yeah. Uh oh. But then i had another trip, and then you were. I think you weren’t available. Yeah. You blew me off my last trip. I think that was two years ago. Twenty. Um, okay, so we’re talking about donorsearch vice funds. You have some interesting stats about how popular they are that they’ve grown oh, since twenty twelve, give us give us just some basic numbers so we know why we should be paying attention to these things. Sure. And i think some of your listeners may know that that we have to start paying attention to donorsearch buy-in funds and and i’ll i’ll use the lingo dafs if that don’t get me into jargon, no that’s that’s approved. Yeah, okay, so dafs sir, like the fastest growing recipients of charitable giving now in the in the u s so donations of increased from just under fourteen billion in two thousand twelve two. Twenty three billion in two thousand sixteen. And meanwhile, sort of in two thousand sixteen, we’ve seen the top. I think six, uh, charities or six recipients of charitable giving in the country were dafs so, you know, the biggest one being fidelity charitable out doing united way and and american red cross and everyone else. So six out of the top ten recipients of charitable giving were dashed. Something to pay attention, tio sure on also the interesting that the growth rate so you cited uh, fourteen billion in twenty twelve to twenty three. Billion. Twenty, sixteen that’s. Two thirds growth, sixty six percent over five years, and individual giving over that was five years grew by only fifteen percent. Yeah, and you’ll see a lot of reports now saying, suggesting that they’re fewer and fewer donors e-giving teo to public charity, that air doing direct service work. Now, the big donors are still contributing, but fewer numbers of smaller donors, and part of that because of the tax incentive that are changing. But, you know, that’s, huge growth in the donor by fun, you know, in light of those numbers of lessening donors, the growth of donor advice on sixty six percent over five years. Any investment manager would love that. Yeah, no kidding. Shoretz naturally. My my portfolio would certainly love that. My portfolio buy-in buy high sell low. That seems to be my mantra if you look at my portfolio over the lifetime of my portfolio, um, so you and there are a couple of reasons why these air so attractive to individuals ? You know, you get that immediate tax deduction first ? Yeah. I mean, it works great. From the donor’s perspective from, you know, from the donor, you make a contribution. You khun taken immediate charitable contribution deduction, but you get to practically kind of control that gift on and decide who you want to ultimately give it out to in future years, even if it’s going to be two years later, five years later, ten years later, twenty years later, you can sort of hold it in that fund. Now, legally speaking, you make that gift immediately, and you get the deduction. Because your gift is complete. You have given it to a charity in the in the year you made that gift. But practically speaking, that charity that’s, the dafs sponsoring organization, that donor by sun sponsoring organization, which typically is associate it either with a financial services company like fidelity. Charitable that’s the biggest, you know, charity that that receives gibson in the world or hyre you can give it to a community foundation that’s, the other big sponsoring organization of bath and so legally they have control of the money. But practically speaking, they’re probably going to listen to where you want to make the donations to so long that it’s illegal distribution later, so long as you’re going to make the grant toe another public charity, even if it’s you know your intention to give it twenty years later, that’s okay ? Yeah, the donor’s make what’s called a recommendation to the to the charity fundez holding their donor advised funds and ninety nine times out of one hundred. The recommendation is approved. I think basically, they’re just looking to make sure it is a bona fide five o one c three charity that’s being recommended. And then the fund hyre approves that recommendation and makes a gift from from its fund to do that to that five. Twenty three ? Yeah, i think that’s right, tony. So, you know from from the sponsoring organizations by then they might have a little bit more in terms of little legal obstacle. Teo to live up to but from from the perspective of the donor, a lot of them feel like it’s still their money, they still get to control where they’re going to make a grant to even after they’ve taken the charitable contribution deduction, right ? And it’s, you know, apart from sort of getting an immediate charitable contribution deduction, it also allows him to do other things like it allows them to give annually i’m sorry it allows them to bundle up their donation, so maybe they give to a charity to the dafs sponsoring organization like once every five years, and they do that because the incentives for getting a charitable tax deduction have drop because, you know, i don’t want to get too technical, but the rise of the standard deduction that took effect earlier this year and we talked about that that already means only five to ten percent of taxpayers actually get a charitable contribution deduction anymore for making a gift, because the standard deduction is higher than their itemize, but by bundling there donations and say, bundling them up. So instead of making a five thousand dollar gift every year and not being able to use that to get a deduction, they can decide to make a twenty five thousand dollar gift over five years, and then that twenty five thousand dollars now, combined with their other itemized deductions, is big enough to get the value that deduction so they can use the dafs to give every five years. But the charity that they want to be the beneficiary of the fund could receive money from the dafs on an annual basis after they do that, so to the charities that looks like the donor is giving to them every year once that funded the death. So another another useful way that that an individual can use the donor advised funds that’s created by the new tax laws understand, right ? You gross it up to get the get the hyre deduction compared to the standard, and then you can give it out, uh, slowly over time, all right, but make it make it the gift huge big enough to take advantage of the larger deduction at one time or maybe a couple times over several years, exactly in the charity might like that, too, if they’re like saying, you know, we actually don’t need your annual contribution because we’re actually saving up to buy a building or to create this brand new project. So if a year five you give us the larger gift, we would really appreciate that, so it can work for everyone involved as well. Okay, we’re going to take our first break, but when we come back, we’re going to talk about this feature of being able to latto it’s, make your gifts directly to the to the charities over over lots of time and the constant nation that that causes tell us for pete’s sake. Oh my goodness! Think of the companies you can refer and start asking them. You’ve heard the charity testimonials. You’ve heard the company testimonials, it’s time to claim your own long stream of passive revenue from tell us fifty percent of the card processing fees that tell us gets from the companies you refer. Go to you fifty percent month after month after month. That’s your long stream of passive revenue. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us now, let’s, go back to jean takagi. Okay, uh, sometimes i don’t remember where i am. But this time i do. So i made because i said it, okay, so this feature that you can give over time over many, many, many years causes consternation in the non-profit community. Do i have that right ? Yeah, you’re right. So what ? You know what ? If the donor is e-giving annually to their donors buy-in spun and saying to the charity, you know, well, i’ll give to you at the end of five years at the end of ten years from my donor advised funds, but, you know, in five or ten years that donor, right have other priorities, and so that charity that used to get the annual gifts from that donor might not be on that list anymore, and so they can’t really think about that in their budget, so it does create some concern by charity. Yeah. Now, in that case, i mean, if i were advising them, i would get that pledge in a written document and the legal enforceability of that, you know, we can we can write us that it’s got some enforceability weaken. We’re relying on your promise, we’re going to take some administrative actions. Buy-in reliance, you know, maybe there’s a small consideration, maybe there’s a small dahna yeah, so, you know, we can we can we could make that legally enforceable in a lot of states, if not all the states, yeah, i think that’s true, tony, but then you have to think about whether even if you win the battle with the one donor-centric it in court, what that does in terms of the long term and your relationship with every other donors who now knows you sue donors when i don’t clean get yeah, yeah, i mean, you got a definitely are you ? Yeah, i know you’re right. This is an interesting conversation because planned e-giving i’ve dealt with this and way we deal with it as gifts come, and i’ve dealt with the aftermath of it after afterwards, i’ve never had a client that that maybe i shouldn’t reveal this. I don’t know clients non-profits are very reluctant to sue their donors. They you rather work something out. Andi it’s true, i haven’t had a client that well, first of all, i haven’t had that many clients we have to enforce we had where we had to force agreements against, uh, right against the donors and that’s, very rare that you have. To hold this document up that they signed years earlier and remind them of the enforceability of it on ben, you know, charities are reluctant to do it and have to be, i don’t have to be a scenario where there’s a lot of money at stake and it’s a pretty clear case because you’re right, the pr is very bad, and, you know, it may never even make the popular press, but just in donorsearch coll’s within that individual organization, you know, things get around, especially if it is a large gift from a prominent donor. Back-up yeah, and especially that donors still alive tony versus in a plan gift where you might be contesting it against airs or for other recipients of that. But when the donor is still alive and saying, i don’t like your charity as much as i used to, i still like you a little bit, but i don’t want to give you my full gift that i thought i wanted to give to you that’s a tough i got a raise, so there is a practical aspect too the enforceability of these agreements that i’m saying can be made legally enforceable, but but the enforceability and itself sometimes is enough of a persuasive factor to a donor that, you know, i think they keep up their commitment when, when they think they might not have otherwise might never go to court. Yeah, but the donor might see the seriousness of the donation and know that he would hurt the charity he or she would hurt the charity if they didn’t go through with that pledge because maybe relied on it to partially constructed building, and you need the full funds to finish construction. Otherwise you can’t do it, and you’ve wasted a lot of money and may be created some lawsuits against you for not being able to do it. So the donors, you know, relying on that donor’s money to your detriment or twenty to your detriment is is the basis for a lawsuit, and that would hopefully be convincing to a donor, even without the lawsuit part that you relied on on their promised teo, meet their place. I like heidtke idea. Yeah. Okay. Um but the bigger issue so let’s take it away from an individual charity. The bigger issue is that there’s. A lot of money parked in dahna. Advice, funds and we really don’t know how much and the what bothers congress and a lot of people in the charity community is that this money is parked there and it’s not getting to the five oh one see threes that it’s that it was that the donor earned a charitable deduction for giving to you it could sit indefinitely literally, right ? Yeah, so under tax laws, it could sit there indefinitely. So the donor advice fun sponsoring organization is not legally compelled to make any distributions at all. If the donor says nothing about it for ten years, twenty years than the sponsoring organization doesn’t have to do it. Although some of started to say, you know what ? We’ll have an internal policy that says, if you don’t, if you’re completely inactive your fund, we will start to make distributions based on what information we have of where you want it to go, so they’re trying to do some self regulation there, but there are no external laws right now that required donorsearch funds, teo, make any distributions at all. Yeah, well, i suspect they see a lot of a lot of the the the concerns, especially from the isat, the senate finance committee, charles grassley, chuck grassley is chair of is that senate finance ? Yeah, right, well, the senate finance committee might be concerned with that asshole, but they’re really the argument is going on with academics and professionals and big organizations, including community foundations and these big financial institutions all over the place. And you’re seeing a lot of books on the non-profits sector now sort of criticizing no philantech be including through donorsearch buy-in funds and the controls that these donors have over large amounts of money even after they’ve taken the deduction. Interesting, interesting discussions out there now now it za parallel to me, you know it’s, it’s, it’s similar to a lot of the planned gift’s a similar principle or policy around a lot of the planned gif ts so take i’m thinking like the charitable remainder trusts or charitable gift annuities where basically ah, person let’s use the trust because that’s not that’s, not charity specific. So let’s use that example. Someone creates a charitable ranger trust. They leave the option. Teo name some charitable beneficiaries a cz remainder beneficiaries which means at the death of the donor what’s left, goes to these charities and in the during the life of the donor or donors, sometimes a lot of times, it’s a couple there getting income for their getting income. So getting income for life when they die, what remains goes to charities, and they reserve the right to change your those charities might be now they get an immediate income tax deduction for that. When they create that in the year that they create that charitable remainder trust. So i see a similar policy. No it’s it’s. An immediate deduction for a long term gift to charity. Although there is some guarantee because the difference is that the donors are going to die and when they die, the people getting that people died getting the income die, there will definitely be a gift to charity. So there’s there’s that right there is that limiting factor. But you could see the policy similarity, right ? Yeah. That’s. Definitely some similarities. But i think that the donor advised funds are more concerning, particularly because when you do a charitable remainder trust, for example, your deduction is going to be the value of the gift that ultimately is left over for the charity using you. Know, like actuarial tables. Yeah, that present value there going ? Yeah. So what is it going to be worth ? The likely could based on average, like bands and stuff. What will the charity likely get ? That’s what you can deduct the donor advised funds, especially if you give gifts of like real estate or privately, closely held stock, you get to not pay any capital gains on it. If you’re a donor on, then you get a deduction of the fair market value, which is big because if you gave it to a private foundation, if you formed a private foundation, you don’t get that gift a fair market value, that deduction of fair market value essentially get the deduction of cost. So being able to sell something that, you know, wildly appreciated in value and getting the fair market value deduction and not having to pay any capital gains on it and then still having the practical control of where to ultimately spend that money. Um, you can see how that might be even more attractive. A donation vehicle tow an individual donor, but why ? At the same time they’re concerned some from from congress and from from others. Who think that they are, you know, advocates for the nonprofit sector of saying is really going to be put to good use for charitable use, or is it going to sit in these funds, particularly in funds that are run by some of the financial institutions where their continued to get, you know, investment season stuff that that air being generated because they’re continually being invested ? You know what charitable good are those funds doing ? You know, professionally, you know, if they’re if they’re held by fidelity and being managed and no promise of went to distribute. All right, hold that let’s, take our last break hoexter give, you’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving simple if your donor’s consent a text that can make a donation not only simple, affordable and secure ceo chadband oid very smart guy, he set up a smart company. You want to get the info, which you should, you should want to get the info text, npr. Two, four, four, four nine nine nine and you will ah, not only get info, but also be able to claim a special listener offer. We’ve got several more minutes left for fund-raising no, not fund-raising dahna advice funds where’s, my where’s, my lousy intern. I wish i had one. We’re not talking about fund-raising that was a big mistake. Sorry, jean. We’re talking about dahna advice funds. I need an intern. Esso, i have someone to blame for this poor copy. All right ? Yeah. Yeah. The fair market value. Yes. The donor donor advised funds gives a fair market value. You made several points, but the one that hit me the most because i do plan giving is dahna advice fund to get a fair market value charitable deduction immediately plan give to get a present value deduction based on your life expectancy. So it’s going to be less. And if you hold the money in your donor’s vice fund for twenty years, it’s, in fact worth less, then it was in the year you put it in. But you’ve got a face value fair market value deduction, didn’t you ? Well, actually, you know what ? What you holding to donorsearch buy-in fundez might appreciate wildly. So if you put a, you know, a million dollars investment or even a ten thousand dollar investment into a donor advice fund of apple stock, you know when it was nothing, and you held it for ten years, and all of a sudden you’re sitting on, you know, potentially hundreds of millions of dollars and nobody take capital gains tax for that, right ? But you are, you know, the donor advisor or the donor of one hundred billion dollars fund, you know, that’s held by financial institutions, affiliated charity sponsoring dafs sponsoring organizations. And, you know, you get all sorts of benefits for, you know, being, you know, the donor to donorsearch by son. You know, you get to go to the fancy cocktail parties and gala charity gallas and people swooning all over you because, you know, you can make huge distribution to the to the folks if it was your own money, but not your own money anymore. Yeah, well, it’s, not yours, right ? It’s yours to decide what to do with, but it doesn’t belong to you. The recommendation of where it should go belongs to you. Now, of course, on the other side of that, you could have invested in. Annoy ll start. I’m trying something the stock that crashed terribly, but you might have invested in something that depreciated on dh there’s going to be a lot less left for charity because you didn’t invest well, yet you got you got a deduction for what you put into the fund initially. So in that case, the charities really do lose the public loses out because a lot less money is going to go to charity. Then we gave you a deduction for sure that’s true as well, and i don’t mean teo be sort of a nay sayer of the donor advised funds because there’s a lot of good things that they do and, you know, they’ve been around for, like over eighty years, really, with community foundations and, you know, the original intent was sort of to collaborate. Have donors collaborate with the advice of the community foundation about how they could sort of use their money’s on dh use their donations together to fund some of the most important things to benefit that community. And, you know, that aspect of donor advised funds is, i think, a wonderful thing and the, you know, a lot of critics. Who are arguing against the critics of the donor advised funds so the ones who are the pro donorsearch buys fundez woobox are saying, you know, a lot of this money that is going into donordigital fun would otherwise not go into charitable goods anyway, they might they might never make the charitable sector. S so it’s not like saying that, you know, people are e-giving too don’t advise funds, and it never gets charity that way that, you know, the counter argument is some of those funds would never get to charity unless they went through donorsearch buy-in funds. And by the way, our distribution rate is much higher than private foundation grade, so even if the donor gave it to, you know, created their own private foundation, then they’re just required to invest or grant out essentially five percent of their investment assets per year and don’t advice funds are granting out, on average, somewhere about twenty percent of their assets for years, so we don’t even have a problem here. Why do you want to create rules to limit what we’re doing but there’s a counter to that as well ? That says well, that twenty percent includes donorsearch vice funds e-giving toe, other donor advised funds and that’s like when you want to shift your donors fund from fidelity to vanguard xero or to the silicon valley community foundation or did it new york community foundation ? You’re just moving money around from one financial talkto another one charity to another, but nobody’s actually putting it to use teo, do good for the community that the other arguments and counter arguments the other problem with that look atyou doing both sides. The other problem with those measures of distribution are they could be skewed by very large gif ts that come from one or two funds while lots of small funds aren’t making any any distributions jean, we have to leave here. Maybe we should have planned this for a whole hour. But we hyre is this your lackluster host ? He’s ? Jean takagi, managing attorney of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group he’s, our legal contributor just following for god’s sake non-profit latto blood dot com and at g tak thank you very much, gene. Great talking to you next week it’s website day https and getting more gift from your sight if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p weinger cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com, by tell us. Credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Creative producer is claire meyer, huh ? Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. Marc stein is our web guy. How much mark silverman is our web guy, and the music is by scott stein. She we will be next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great better than me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get a drink. Nothing. You could. Hi, are you interested in blockchain technologies and crypto currencies ? Then tune in here on talk radio. Got n y c with me, david every friday, eleven a, m twelve p, m eastern time. As we answer your questions and interview, great guests live on internet radio on building the blockchain where you can catch the blockchain revolution. Oppcoll you’re listening to the talking alternative net, are you stuck in a rut ? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down ? Hi, i’m nor in sumpter, potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. 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Um, sam liebowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on thursdays at twelve noon eastern time. That’s, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, thursday’s twelve, noon on talk radio dot. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz buy-in

Nonprofit Radio for October 12, 2018: KPIs & Fundraging

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Anna Rhodes & Brenna Holmes: KPIs
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference (18NTC), shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your nonprofit. They’re Anna Rhodes and Brenna Holmes from Chapman, Cubine & Hussey.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Fundraging
Amy Sample WardIs your org positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and want to channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you? Amy Sample Ward, our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN), explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage.

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent under aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with gastro inter opto sis, if you brought me down with the idea that you missed today’s show kp eyes our panel from the non-profit technology conference eighteen ntc shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your non-profit they’re anna roads and brenda homes from chapman, cubine and husky and fund-raising is your organ positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and wanna channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you ? Amy sample ward, our social media contributor and ceo of and ten non-profit technology network, explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage. Tony, take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing wetness e p a is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony, tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine nine here are and erodes and brenna homes with k p iis. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference in new orleans. This interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use, dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guests are on a road and brenda homes. Anna is deputy director of analytics at chapman cubine and husky, and brenda holmes is vice president of digital at c c h ladies. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to have you both have you. Have you done your session already ? We did. We just just finished, finished all your coming off it, all right, it’s coming off the hyre exact. The bar is open now. Life is good. You’re topic was, but are we making progress, establishing and using kp eyes ? Okay, uh, maybe we’ll start with, make sure that everybody understands that a k p i is a what you stated in unison together, keep performance in the caner. We see that the voice okay, i think that’s pretty well understood, but let’s, just make sure, okay, why are these things so important ? Let’s start with anna because, er it is so hard to keep everyone within a non-profit hyre working towards the same goal instead of looking at all of their different measurement. Um, so having a way to agree on what success really looks like can actually end up making you be more successful in the end, because then you’re all working towards the same goals. Okay, so the part of this topic is organizational buy-in or we’ll not organic. Yes, whatever happens, you fire of you defined focus, a bunch of people, a bunch of people need to agree, so called that buy-in okay. And i also see another part of this is data overload. I mean there’s, just so much available, right. We need to focus on brenna on what’s what’s, the most important stuff. Exactly. Yeah, and the main thing, you have them clearing up the misnomer that not all kept metrics are kp eyes, right ? So everybody does have to agree. On what what are we trying to track ? Why are we tracking it ? How does that help us meet our strategic objectives and our end goals, right. So once you have the buy-in on all those goals, then you’re able to dig down deeper and develop. What are those specific metrics that will help us meet these kp eyes that we can then measure against those strategic objectives to ensure that we do have success and that we are tracking over time ? Okay, okay, very good, that’s, great, overviewing, thank you. Alright, so. Well, should we should we start with our so we started our organizational goals. Yes, because that’s what ? We’re measuring against that, you’re just saying that. So now we got to get okay. So this all obviously should flow from our mission. I’m gonna go back to that. That that that fourteen year old voice, that really reason that we exist our mission statement. Okay, from that, we have gold now. Now. Okay, i’m gonna assume that everybody buys into the mission. Otherwise they wouldn’t be working there. Hopefully. But now now way. Get to the goal stage people could start falling out. That’s where the disagree it’s not too far from mission to gold, but we could start losing people. What do we do ? Go ahead, runner. Yeah, i’m gonna start so we we like to focus it on the building. Kind of smart goals, right ? So what do we need to do ? Departmental e department by department to help us achieve our mission on dh. Really phoning it in tow ? Really ? No. More than two. Three. And i went up to five in our session. I was like, oh, but, you know, two, three things that we all can agree on as a group that these are priorities. These are important goals. And, yes, there’s. Other things that are important. But if we let ourselves go down the rabbit hole of just saying, listing everything that’s important now, things no longer important, which is what you’re starting with you yours, referring to earlier with the data overload and it’s, especially. Eazy, because digital metrics can be so different than offline metric to instead have the i’m actually moving it away a little bit, okay, okay don’t worry, it can actually be easy. Tohave the metric create new divisions within just the development department divisions that didn’t even exist before, but it’s sustainers causing problems in solving so a cz longest. You’re looking at twenty things in google analytics and through the facebook manager over here, and then a completely different set of metrics for direct male you’re not even working towards the same goals within the development department. So that’s part of why so important to start at the goal side of things rather than at the measurement side of things, so that the measurements always air serving the goals supporting those goals, right ? Okay, i imagine we need top down by this has got to come from leadership. That’s the goal agreement we still go agreement it’s got to be driven from above and and accepted. Yes, it doesn’t necessarily have to be driven from above but don’t really actually, i was you know, as i was saying, i think it could be bottom up it can be, but but but the leadership has to be on a great okay. Okay, for sure. All right. Uh, all right. So we agree on our goals. Now, now we’re moving to our kp eyes. How are we going to how do we know what that’s measurable belongs at the top within within these goals ? Yeah, that we’ve all agreed on. Well, and even before you get teo, what are the kp eyes ? We need to develop strategic objectives for each goal, okay ? Because the girls tend to be a little bit umbrella there. Vega. Right way. Operation. Exactly like we use greenpeace. One of our clients in our session today partnered with us, and one of their goals is defending democracy. Okay, well, that’s big right and an existential and long and yeah, eso then we developed strategic objectives that will help them measure against whether or not they’re being successful in duvette defending democracy it’s time for a break pursuant there. E book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit it’s free as you’re accustomed to all the pursuant resources. Are and it’s on the listener landing page ? No surprise, tony dahna may slash pursuing capital p for please and pursuing i guess now back to kp eyes from the non-profit technology conference. So what are you ? What are some of them that they chose so way ? Work through those greenpeace ? How come that on right now is accident or not at this table ? Alright, now they’re long sorry, it’s not proper radio your life. I know, i know, but we worked through them from the department perspective. So what would it mean for the fund-raising department to be supporting the organization goal of defend democracy ? So it is easy for fundraisers to think that their job is always the same. It is always just raise money, raise lots of money and then we’re done. But there actually is more nuanced than that if we’re trying to defend democracy. Well, sadly, that isn’t something that we’re just doing today or for the next month. That’s actually a long term project and certainly at least through the trump presidency. And and, you know, given how greenpeace defines this goal of actually reducing the amount of money in politics, i mean that’s going to take sometime. So that means whatever funding that fund-raising is supplying has to be sustainable and it’s the net that matters, not just the growth tomorrow. Okay, so that means now we’ve clarified the objective in the fund-raising department. So that’s, the next stage come up with the mission statement for the organization ? We’ve turned that into a number of goals for the organization, the big dream things defend democracy, stop global warming, all of these huge concepts and then we’ve broken them down for how does my department contribute to that ? And on lee, once you’ve done that, can you decide ? What am i going to measure what’s actually being, what do i need to measure ? Ok, right. So the object’s strategic objective is growth in sustainable net revenue. We’ll both sustainable and net are two measurable things. So then you can build your kp eyes off of those keywords on dh actually, decide on what are the metrics that we have to check ? How do we agree on collecting that data so that everything has a flat, measured baseline that we can then benchmark ourselves against what periodically so that we’re checking in on that growth ? Side of the goal and when we’re at this stage, is this just our department ? That’s that’s really making these decisions ? Okay, so we’re not we’re not at the higher levels anymore. It’s not necessary, correct is where the department level, but we’re going to build back-up so we’ve gone down to the department level to figure out that’s, so i mean, you’re using your expertise, so you want your fundraisers figuring out how fund-raising can best support the fund-raising goal, right ? You don’t i don’t want a cfo deciding that, but in the end, the cfo has two buy-in on it, all of leadership does have two buy-in so once the various organizations have figure out out their objectives and their kp eyes, then you have to come back up a level and talk across departments and see how these objective support each other and possibly adjust them is where we ended up with our greenpeace example is actually making slight objectives when the marketing department and the fund-raising department saw the amount of overlap between their objectives and the tactics in specific that they were planning in order to get there, so that sounds like an ah ha! Moment, way. Have a lot more in common than we realized. A cross marketing and fund-raising. Exactly. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay, dahna, but let me ask you where should we go next with this ? Where do we go next with discussion ? You talk good. Well, i was just gonna say i think, you know, we used marketing and fund-raising as the example here because obviously, the ntc audiences, a lot of marketers and fundraisers, but the same structure and the same necessity for kp eyes it’s in all departments, right ? Whether it’s, your program, people who are actually implementing the services or whether it’s your public relations or media relations outreach people like all of these departments have to go through the same process on. And i think there will be a lot of those. Ah ha. Moments for organizations who are used to working in silos when they start thinking about the goals. Right ? Actually being achievable of strategic objectives that can be measured to get back against the mission on dh over there. Okay, uh, what about digital digital fund-raising kp eyes ? You talked some about that ? Yeah. Okay, let’s. Shut out. You want to start anna s. So there are a lot of questions about digital fund-raising kp eyes because people immediately go to the measurements available. In google analytics, and which one of these should i use as if the answer is the same for everyone ? So this just, you know, as if conversion rate on your petitions should be asserted number for every single organization and that’s what defines success ? Because we can show you how to set that up in google analytics, so that came up in our session, and it was a another reminder to folks to go back to the beginning, decide on your goals. Yeah, i think i feel like a lot of ways it’s, like the ultimate consultant answer is it depends right ? Because everything is it is individualized. If you’re not taking the time to audit yourselves and personalize and get that organizational buy-in and that organizational priority list, then they don’t really matter than they aren’t kp eyes, they’re just metrics, whether they’re showing growth or loss or what they’re just vanity numbers at that point because they have no tie to the strategic objectives in the mission of the organization. We had one question in the session, which was great, and it was about supporter scoring and i think that’s mental really hot topic in the digital. Space border scoring ? Yeah, i don’t know what that is. Okay, so when the ads taking basically qualitative, um, pieces of information, whether that behavioral traits or demographic things on dh scoring it, putting a quantitative wait to that to then build a model to show you these are my best people, my top ten deaths ill or my latto bottom ten on dh, then also using it to find lookalike audiences and things like that out in the world. So you want you’re doing this for different constituencies like donors, volunteers, exactly, event attendees, service beneficiaries, okay, different constituencies. And the problem is exactly the same problem that folks have with models in the direct marketing space is that for non-technical users, they hear model, and they’re like, oh, it obviously adjust to my program. It’s must have something to do with artificial intelligence. I hear all these things are great, these people are scored at the top, therefore they’re the best for me, and then they’re surprised when the results don’t match that. But any model has to be based on what your actual goals are, so if you’re using a response rate, a response based model and your goal is actually to increase high dollar donors. That model is not going to serve you. The people with the top score in that model are not necessarily going to be the high dollar donors. And so it was the same thing with the supporter scoring thie. It was a very good question, but it again starts from the data side of things rather than the gold side of things. We have all of this data. We have thes scores saying these supporters are our best ones. We should contact them every chance that we get our screening. Fill those right back. Yes, when i think a lot of it stemmed for for that, for a lot of people in for him in particular, asking the question that like which which one should i buy ? Right which model is best ? Which scoring which software should i purchase that you actually have to do the internal look looking in to find out what’s important to you before you decide what direction on demand that of the vendors ? Because it’s true, that all of these models can be adjusted when you are able to communicate what is actually valuable to your organization. Otherwise, you’re going to screen it. You mean screening ? Yeah. Yeah. That’s not commonly known. Now, i think i think most most orders say they just take the algorithms. Yeah, they’re provided the show. Andi. Everybody gets the same. Same right ? Yeah. Yeah, that that’s not leveraging that to its utmost. Yeah. That’s. A very good that’s. A very important point. I think people are just taking it and they figure well, there there’s a half a dozen vendors. So there are each have different a proprietary algorithm way. Have to pick one, right ? Not so. And not so you can. You can negotiate. Oh, yeah. I got a chorus thing just like the k p i s started you off area that’s. Two songs together. Ask for what you need and it doesn’t matter what how big the screening of doesn’t matter whether martin lundy or blackbaud or know it it is it is going to affect of the pricing, but asking the question it does not affect the pricing. So always asked the question of these air the things that are important to us. What would that mean for the price that you would offer on the model that you built that incorporates these things that are important to us. So find that out from a few different vendors when i was a good partner vendor is going to ask those questions of you the best ones will write they don’t know because they do try and have everybody tries to have an off the shelf product that’s going to be successful for the majority of users, but really the ones that are caring about donor-centric communication and really carrying about long term relationships with the non-profit that they partner with should be asking those questions because it is about building that custom model based on the weights and measures that are important to each of the organization and each individual program or department in the organization. Okay, in my experience, that’s it’s not surely aspirations on night. I’m an optimist. Yeah, there’s optimism and then there’s today i think you know that saying, you know, you know, but i just haven’t experienced it. I know i’m working planned e-giving fund-raising so i’m not, you know, i don’t have all the conversations with potential screening vendors, but i just have never heard this that you can negotiate. On tweaking tweaking of the yeah, i’ve never heard that i’ve always you know, i say whether it’s your own professional development like negotiating raises or what but if you don’t ask, you get everything is negotiable. Everything’s negotiable think lorts in london was negotiable. And speaking of an analyst there’s nothing that i like better than being told exactly what your goals are so that i can build something that it’s really going to be successful, right ? Yeah, that’s the battle them to anna and say, show me these numbers, right ? I come to and i say, i’m trying to figure out this about this co owners this i’m trying to figure out the answer to this question, and then she comes back to me with the metrics that solve for x better than actually just telling me ac okay, yeah, well, we still have ah, good number of minutes together left. What ? What else ? Maybe other questions that got asked or other things that came out of your that were in your session that we haven’t talked about yet ? What else is there ? Well, one question that i got wass what software solves this ? I’m paraphrasing, but basically it was what what do i buy that will make this ? Um but thiss kp i process ? Yeah, are there ? Are there tech solutions way ? Haven’t talked about that at all ? No, i don’t think everybody just wants that easy answer, right ? Nobody likes introspection, and there are tons and tons of software programs that can display your kp eyes, so if you’re looking for a data visualization, a solution that board a dashboard product there’s tons and tons of thumb out there and what i told this person was that if your issue is that you don’t have the staff, teo, learn new software and you don’t have the budget to buy something that isn’t going to solve all of your problems. Then don’t buy anything, put your kp ice and excel, but, um, in a word, doc, if you have and it really is the process and the conversations and having thie organization wide agreement that makes this powerful not you know all, i’ll create some great visualization for you, but i can create plenty of great visualizations using meaningless data. Some some some of this discussion reminds me of ah, strategic planning discussion still mean you’re getting organizational buy-in we’re all agreeing on common goals and the measures toward those goals. I mean, those goals inform the future direction of the of the organization. So there’s overlap between this and a strategic planning process. Yeah ? Oh, definitely. Yeah, and that was a big part of it. The draw. When ana came up with the session idea, i thought it would be she roped you in ? Well, no, i basically solicited her. But then she came up with the idea because ntcdinosaur like solo. So i mean, i don’t know, but i’m the one that speaks of these things all the time. And i was like, anna, your turn. But it was her idea. The session was great and i just fell in love with it because it’s not just about numbers, right and that’s what people think that’s always important question. Exactly agreement. It really is about the change. Even change management, strategic planning like all of you respect exactly. And that’s, i think is. So is it lost on a lot of people, especially at non-profits ? Where everybody’s wearing ? A lot of hats, everybody is doing multiple jobs and just trying to get the next thing done on the list that this really forces you. If you want to do a right to take a step back and think about how your day to day activities impact the mission, impact the strategic objectives and on go from there and i think that’s, i think that’s really refreshing for people to do just in general, whether you’re developing kp eyes or not, because it does make you think about why we do what we dio and people who work in non-profits as well as those who partner like us, who partner with them, we do this because we love right now work the outcomes of the mission that zit and we all get so tied up in the weeds of the day today that we forget about the mission and how amazing the organizations that we work with. Our and people have a very hard time because they’re wearing a million hats, hats, and they have way too much on their plate. They just need to get that next e mail out so that they have a very hard time. Deciding okay, today i’m going to stop and actually go through this k p i building process, but i would urged people to try it because, uh, wait, we have a couple minutes left, and i think we talked a lot about motivation. Hyre logistically, how do you take this on you ? We meet once a week, tio i mean, he’s, a big topic you can’t you can’t do this in a in a week now, but you meet once a week, over months or a couple days over every other. How did you do this ? Logistically, i would suggest tacking it onto the front of your annual budgeting process, so work back off from when you’re budgets are due to the board, and then when their due to your department lead and due to leadership, and then give yourself a minimum of a month, but ideally two months so it’s, like not unusual for to be a six month process from the time of the department objective and kp i development to the time that the budget is actually finalized and signed off on by the board. Okay, excellent, helpful and that forces you to revisit on at least. On an annual basis, right, because you’re reevaluating before that next expenditure budget is good into place annually now, okay, okay, yeah, we have, like a minute and a half left. I wantto make sure this fits just right. So where ? Who wants to leave ? Leave us with closing thoughts. You know what else to say ? Okay. I wish i had something easy. Tio. You’ve seen this working clients, right using transformation and clients in the process can work. Yeah, stamina. Devote your vote attention to it. And i have seen it make those data day tasks easier, because then you have fewer interruptions from other departments or from leadership trying to push you in a million different directions. Dahna. Okay, it’s. A really good point. That’s. A good place. Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Love are well done. Wonderful. Okay, thanks. They are on a road. Deputy director of analytics chapman, cubine and husi. And also brenholz vice president of digital at c c h. The interview is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with accounting or your nine ninety ? Are you thinking about a change of accountants in this ? Ah, next in the next cycle for yourself. Check out weinger cpas. Dot com. You start your due diligence there, of course. And then talk to them. The partner ? Yeah. Huge tomb. You know, he’s been on the show. He’s a good guy. I trust him weinger cpas dot com the place to start now. Time for tony steak too. Do i say thank you too often ? If i do, please let me know, but i’m saying it now. I am grateful that we have the support we have now over thirteen thousand listeners, whether you are listening, live podcast or affiliate thank you if you’re following along on twitter. If you’ve, uh you’re following what we call it on youtube is just following subscribing if you subscribed on youtube twitter, youtube i thank you facebook, facebook, facebook fans! It doesn’t mean much anymore. It seems to have very much faded into sort of triviality. I remember the days we used to say like us on facebook. Facebook dot com slash twenty monday now provoc radio those were the dark days, but i’m grateful that’s it. Thank you. However you’re with us. Thank you very much. It’s. My pleasure to welcome back amy sample ward. You know her for god’s sake, she’s, our social media contributor in the ceo of and ten the non-profit technology network where we just heard a segment from for the last conference her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s that amy sample war dot or ge and at amy rs ward welcome back, amy simple word hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s always a pleasure. I am. I’m always waiting for the day when i just stopped getting invitations. Yeah, it’ll happen that way too. I won’t officially tell you. I’ll just stop course. Just slowly stop scheduling me and i will know it. It’s over. Yeah, i won’t even be slow. It’ll be abrupt. It’ll just have the thing. And then six months later, you’ll think about well, hopefully is not that long. Couple months later think packed. Jeez, tony hasn’t been in touch with me for, well, that’s the way it’ll happen. Um, okay, so we’re talking about fund-raising fund-raising underage. What ? Yeah. What ? Uh, put this on your radar. Well, you know, i don’t think it’s necessarily new. I think it is. Has old as the world of fund-raising, you know, centuries and centuries old. But it has been something that here and in ten. As as staff, we’ve been talking about a lot, especially in the last two year political climate on dh it’s the way that i would define thunder aging is you can think of it a bit a bit like peer-to-peer where it’s individuals it’s not necessarily on organization or staff members, people out in the community fund-raising and it’s, the fund-raising that happens or the campaigns that happen in response to things in the news, you folks in a specific geographic community care that something is being proposed or moving forward ? That’s going tio threatened a way that they live their life or the way that the organizations they support are able to do their work, and in response to that kind of anger, that rage, they want to feel like they’re doing something, and it doesn’t feel like there’s really anything that’s in their power to do in-kind of that complex world we live in of policymakers and government officials and all the way down to us citizens. And so they start a fund raising campaign to benefit those organizations that they support that they see as the ones who are in a position to try and make a change or support people experiencing whatever situation is happening. So it’s really driven by individuals reacting to the news, you know, whatever that news, maybe not saying that this is something that only happens in one kind of view or political party, but as as a country, i think we see these examples of fund-raising jane becoming more and more visible, bigger impact on dh more, yeah, so not new, but certainly amped up under thinks the twenty sixteen election and since donald trump is president certainly amped up on really throughout the country, but, you know, i even has they say both sides because i’m trying to get away from us being a polarized nation, but across all across all political spectrums amped up yeah, okay, okay, yeah, you know, there’s a there’s, a there’s, a sense that, right ? You know, it it comes from a sense of sort of incapacity, you know ? Yeah, i think it really is that powerlessness that i think a lot of communities feel where, where the ability to make policy or protect existing policy or change processes doesn’t feel like something they are ever a part of, and yet they’re impacted by the results of those changes and that powerlessness, i think, is part of that rage, right ? How could this happen ? But also, how could this happen and not include me when i am a person that is a part of this, and so a kind of counterbalance that there’s this feeling of ? Well, if there’s on top of us, you know that all donate five players surely will be able to pull those funds, you know, into this organization or into this movement that can’t help that a lot of this i think, comes from or is is related to what you and i talked about in august over marketing, you know, if if there’s if there’s an over marketing problem in the non-profit community, if we’re constantly at eleven on a scale of zero to ten, then you know where, where were guilty of amping up the amping up the rhetoric, right on dh, the passions and the anger and the outrage for sure, and, you know, we don’t have to go down that path, but i think fund-raising when done successfully and by successfully to meet a part of that means in conjunction with an existing organisation and you know kind of ah request or past that makes sense for them to move forward with when that happens. It’s, because organizations are not over marketing, right ? They are very clear there, very consistent. They are providing information that helped synthesize the news, the changes, the policies, whatever it is and demonstrates really clearly that they are part of the fight or the solution or the alternative path. And that way it’s clear for supporters again. You know, these aren’t necessarily campaigns driven by the organization’s. These air campaigns driven by community members who just are so fed up they want to do something. And so when organizations can be very clear and communication be very consistent about the the things they respond to in the news or the issues that they are going to speak about, it positions community members to know oh, my gosh, i’m so upset. You know, i heard this thing on the news, but i know this organization i support, i trust them. I know exactly what they do. I know exactly how they’re part of a solution that i want to see. I feel comfortable and confident starting to fund raise for them because i know where they stand, i know what they do, and i’m able to even borrow that language, you know, for my facebook poster for my, you know, fund-raising page and in a home run by the organization, they’ve given me the tools and resources to help me create a campaign, you know ? So exactly we’ll get to that because, you know, you want to have ideally you want to have these things in place so that the community is empowered. Exactly, yeah, do you because you want to benefit from this, you know, if your community is upset, there’s there’s a potential benefit for you if you’re working in that space ? Exactly. Do you have a sense of what ? What helps make thes campaigns more successful ? O or not ? Yeah, i mean, i think that like anything there’s going to be those examples that are true out liars on dh, you know, feel like magical unicorn rainbow fundraisers that happened, and we’re not necessarily trying to replicate those, but the things that you can do is an organization beyond what we were just talking about being really clear and consistent on the issues that you talk about, that you respond to in the news demonstrating and communicated kating, how you address those things do all of that, but also i think if you think about this as a peer-to-peer campaign that you’re just not launching, you want to go through some of the same steps, you want to make sure that as an organization you can take donations electronically, that you, you know, have that kind of donation button set up on your website, but also that your, you know, maybe registered on various other peer-to-peer donation platforms so that if people wanted to create a campaign for you, you’re in the system and they can, you know, attach to your profile and have the funds go to u s o that’s one kind of administrative step to take and then on a planning communication side of things, you want to make sure that you’ve done again some of those same peer-to-peer best practices, you’ve got some tool kits that are really easy to find on your website, really easy to follow that say, if you’re going fund-raising for and then you know, whatever your organisation’s name is, here are the things that we know are successful here’s what ? Our logo file is that people aren’t just making a version of your logo that’s not right here’s, you know our mission statement here’s what we’re doing on these kind of top five issues, whatever you think may end up being the things that kind of rage people into fund-raising for you, so you already have sametz tab lish talking points out there, so put some of those tool kits together on dh. I also think that it’s important to keep in that you know it doesn’t have to be a pdf. It could be a page on your website that is, quote unquote the tool kit. It could be a google dog, it could be whatever, but make sure it’s up to date and you’re including things that are even even for people who want to want to fund rage but don’t want to create a whole page for you somewhere or don’t want it to be a long term thing, but they’re kind of really easy to copy paste messages that point back to your donation form so even if they don’t have the capacity or or maybe skills and knowledge to set up a fundraising page for you, they could copy paste that facebook comment that says, you know, i support and ten this is what they’re doing on this issue here’s the donate link so that you can even get those folks, or maybe it’s the lighter end of the spectrum. We gotta take a break tell us you’ve heard from charities that referred companies for credit card processing, and they’re getting the revenue each month you’ve heard from the companies using tello’s for their credit card processing now can use more revenue that long stream of passive revenue that comes from the fees that tello’s urns from the companies you refer. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to amy sample ward. You ticked off a whole bunch of things there, andi, you didn’t have to go, but you were concise, you know, like you’re reading the outline for your next book for this chapter, fund-raising because, you know, i think that it’s important to keep in mind as like an idea about all of this is that this may be different from how organizations may think about other fund-raising campaign is that often really successful ? Fund-raising campaigns community led fund-raising campaigns the organization’s air in the background, but that doesn’t mean the organizations were not actively a part of that campaign being successful, so you don’t have to be the star because you’re going to be the start that’s all the talking points or about how you are going to do this change and that’s why people air are fund-raising you don’t need to be the voice that’s saying all of that so don’t feel like once somebody starts, you’re goingto kind of publicly jump on that and and you’re helping them by being really public about it. That’s actually, what you can do to help them is to be in the background reach out to them, send them an email if you know who they are, you know, send them a phone call and say, what do you need ? Do you need more messages ? We have staff to do that, you know, do you need images ? We can give you some images, help them and give them the fuel to make their campaign strong and don’t feel like you need to step out in front of it. I mean, you want to provide the infrastructure and an ongoing support, but but i think we actually counterproductive if you stepped in and started dahna messaging within their peer-to-peer campaigns, right o for sure we’re going the merciful st makes people feel like, do you even really care about this ? Are you just doing itcause ? This organization had you right ? I’m injecting, it loses that, yeah, you lose the first piela the pier is now the non-profit non-profit to the person’s peers who are not their peers, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s too long a string to abbreviate you can no longer abbreviated ptp. So exactly and i think what’s important to remember to is that the path you think might be most obvious or even easiest may not be the past for them and that’s ok, if they want to really focus on email because that’s who they are and they, you know, send lots of e mails every day and that’s where they know people will open their e mail and read it don’t tell them they need to be tweeting, you know, don’t tell them they need to post on facebook whatever channel somebody’s most comfortable with let them go through that channel. And say, you know, instead of giving you really easy to use tweets, we will write, you know, paragraph chunks for you to use that are compelling that have links to resource is whatever it is that’s going to help them in their outreach on dh you just have to be flexible tete that. Yeah, again, it’s you know, it’s it’s offering support. I mean, the first p knows where the second piece all right, where they hang out. You know, they know my friends. I know my peers put it in the pdp what’s a good word. I was structure, but lexicon samson in the lexicon, you know ? So i know where my penis will like these hangout, so don’t don’t tell me what i gotta do. Of course not. You’re interfering and yeah, yeah, no, i’m great. Yeah, but peace that’s interesting. And i would love to put you on the spot in here. Your thoughts to tony is is the way that these kinds of campaigns justice we’re talking about really centering the people who are fund-raising and not the organisation. How that means they are different in the way that you recognize those donors and supporters. The way that you recognize the work of that campaign on the way that you take credit for those funds, i think there’s a lot of nuance in that give in the way that these campaigns often start the reasoned that people give to them versus give teo you as an organization. Right ? I think it’s important to remember people are giving to that campaign to that rage and not necessarily to you as an organization, even though they are giving he was an organization, right ? So how does that, you know, maybe require, as an organization, you have different practices for the way you recognize and think those donors and those supporters that maybe you do when you run other campaigns yourself ? Yeah, i don’t take well to being asked questions on my own show on your own. Show it sze tony martignetti non-profit radio way. You just made my voice crack. I’m so upset. I know i would say you i would say you need to defer to the to the first p the person who ran the campaign for you, i guess first. Are they willing to share contact info toe let you directly. Thank the donors. To the campaign, maybe one. That all depends. Where did those donations go ? Over there, where the donations happening on a platform where, you know the contact information with saves captured, renamed not you know, i think there’s a lot of kind of technical russians in there too. Okay ? But even if i did capture it on my e-giving form online, i still would ask the the person that person’s permission because they know their peers better, you know, then, you know, how would you feel ? Would you mind if we, uh, could we thank them ? Wei have the info, but we’re not going to use it unless you, you know, let us say something or could re send a message from you to them and, you know, maybe the two of us, right, send a combined thank you message. Maybe our ceo signs it and you sign it, you know ? So what i want that’s a really great idea for for some instances, because you’re then maintaining the same relationship you had during the campaign where your job is an organization was to give them what they needed. And now you’re reinforcing their leadership in the community by saying we’re going toe thank you. And if you would like to, you can pass on our message of things to your, you know, to the donors, but you’re kind of still putting them in the position as the leader instead of the organization. Yeah, yeah, they’re they’re in the lead. I mean, there, there. Yes. It’s there it’s there community that they were fund-raising from so, um, yeah, you wantto elevate them ? Absolutely, uh, that’s, my son and i think it’s also important. I mean, when we think about this, any kind of fund-raising campaign as list building and what that means for future cultivation, whether more donations, bigger donations or other actions, you know, kind of other ladders of engagement. I think there are a lot of instances in fund-raising jean situations where the people who feel kind of fired-up and are supporting that effort are doing it in the way that’s not visible to the organization, at least from a like database perspective, you know, they’re not signing up on the organization’s website. They’re not donating to the organization through a donation form that the organization has access to, so they’re not coming on to the list, but these are people who are fired-up and finding ways against through those leaders who are kind of calling their community action, too continue giving them more news, continue giving them updates even after the maybe donation phase of it is over, but not lose contact with those people and continue to go back to them to say, hey, you know, we got a million dollars, which is not unheard of in some recent examples of fund-raising, you know, we got a million dollars in a week it’s been a month here, the eighteen long years that we’ve hired, we just wanted to let you know, you know, or here’s work that’s happening because of this so that they continue to be in a place where there almost spokespeople for for that action now, and they are saying, hey, i just got this word from the organization, this has been the impact of what we did, and, you know, they get to be the ones sharing that news because you don’t have a way to connect with other people, so at least make sure you don’t lose contact with those that you d’oh, we got to take a ah last break. Text to give, you’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors. If your donor’s consent a text, they could make a donation. We’re talking about that right now, it’s, part of your infrastructure, it’s simple, affordable, secure plus the ceo chadband oid very smart guy he spent set up a smart company um, it’s easy to get the info text npr for non-profit radio to four, four four nine nine nine npr to four, four, four, nine nine nine we’ve got several more minutes for fund-raising well, i’m very glad of within the sample ward would it was one thing i wanted to bring up is a question that has been brought up here at staff when we’re having conversations about this world of fund-raising jane and that is that you can’t anticipate when it’s gonna happen because of the news of the death everyday tension between, you know, you don’t really know what’s gonna happen in the world every day in advance. And what does that mean, given that it’s september right now, when people are probably have already done or at least starting to do now their end of year campaign planning ? So what ? Does it mean if you were, you know, done months of planning all this work ? You’ve launched your end of your campaign ? It’s ? You know, november, december, you’re running this end of your campaign. Something happens in the news. It’s that moment, you know, it’s okay, at least in my opinion, open tio what you may think, tony, but, you know, it’s okay to me, if that means your end of your campaign comes in way under goal and you stop tweeting about it because it may be more important to focus on this other angle where your community is fired-up in a different way, then continuing to almost compete with your community’s interests on, and i think that can be hard in the moment to say, oh, my gosh, we did all this work. We have all these goals and expectations are bored, you know, wants to do x y and z, and now we’re not gonna send this, you know, email out or something, but depending on, of course, you’re going to have to gauge what the community’s responses and all of that. But it may mean that you do let go of that end of your campaign. And that has to be okay. Maybe there’s a way to combine the two so that you know, so yeah. I mean, i definitely think it matters what the universe is, what the community is trying to campaign around. I think you could definitely, especially for your organization willing to do it. I have it in real time and make that end of your campaign talking points aligned with the communities, talking points, you know, if it’s not a huge departure from what you needed, what you needed to say anyway, that’s yeah, i agree. I mean, i would i would try toe message it so that you can you can take advantage of the the outrage. And and as you’re saying, you know, message it into your end of year, you know, it’s that it’s a tough one, because, i mean, i know a lot of listeners have small organizations with, like, one, two, three, staff people and, you know, end of year is like, you know, way may not make payroll if if we don’t do a certain amount in the in the fourth quarter or a lot, a lot of times, you know, like the month of december um, so it’s it’s hard, you know, you gotta yeah, i don’t think that you know, on the first tweet from a community member, you know, manage, stan, you’re not doing now, you’re doing it lightly, but i’m just, you know, i’m trying to balance the i’m trying to balance, you know, what’s not competing with your community, what your communities anger is and what they’re talking about. Versace, versace, you’re own your own messaging for the biggest campaign of your year. Um, i’m trying out for a lot of organizations that have a diverse fund-raising kind of palate with maybe online fund-raising and end of your fund-raising and major gift that it is just filters into maybe how you balance or prioritize amongst that grid, like maybe you say, okay, well, our online fund-raising focus will be supporting these community members who are tryingto lead some campaigns and, you know, are offline is just going to focus on our major donors, and they it might be an opportunity that they feel more compelled because now they see other people, you know, are coming coming to support the same organization that may be a lower financial level, but it still means something, so i think it’s really, about how it plays into the mix. Dahna yeah, yeah, i agree. I’m just considering the balance on a zai know how critical certain campaigns, whether it’s fourth quarter or not, you can be teo teo, people in to those organizations that are small, like i said, you know, one, two, three before employees, you know, i worry about making payroll and making, making rent payments that can that can keep you up at night, you know, you know, um, okay, we still got a couple minutes left. About two minutes or so left before we let you go. What else ? What else should we be talking about for two minutes ? Well, you know, i would be curious outside of on ly fund raging the ways that organizations are also using the news for, i don’t know howto turn raging into the end of other words, but, you know, these air really important moments for organizations for what we were talking about before, with this building and ad ad advil raging, i really committed to making raging part of the word, but, you know, finding ways where probably a little bit more on the fly, which is always hard for organizations, whether they’re bigger, small but finding ways to say, ok, this thing was said, here’s, how we feel about it, you know, do you stand with us something that doesn’t have to have any material outcome from it ? You’re now not, you know, producing an event or launching a program because you’ve said something but ways to get your community feeling like oppcoll they are with you, they know where you stand, you are getting that information back from them to be able to maybe segment your list really dynamically to say, wow, all of these people responded to this news item this day and, you know, these people didn’t that’s another wayto plan for cultivation later. So i think even if your community isn’t necessarily starting fund-raising campaigns for you or you’re not starting fund-raising campaigns in response to the news, you can still be using things that happen, whether they’re local or regional, are at a federal level, help you get more information about who your supporters are, what they care about, how they, how they came to sign up for you so that you can again better reach out to them. But think about your list before you start sending out fund-raising messages later. Yeah, it’s, not it’s, not all about fund-raising wait, we’re gonna leave it there and you say the word you’ll find her at amy rs ward and just follow her for god’s sake. You see all this wisdom ? Get it on twitter at amy or it’s war and also amy sample word dot org’s. Thank you so much, amy. Thanks, tony, my publisher. Next week, jean takagi returns with his take on donor advised funds if you missed any part. Of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p when you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream, tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr too for for for nine, nine, nine. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. 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