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Nonprofit Radio for December 14, 2018: The Encouragement Show

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My Guest:

Sarah Olivieri: The Encouragement Show
Sarah Olivieri wants you to shed fear-based decision making, scarcity mentality and reflexive negativity, in favor of confidence, abundance and an open mind. Your host has encouraging words of his own to contribute. Sarah is principal of Pivot Ground.

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Geren Topia if I saw that you missed today’s show. The Encouragement show Sarah Olivieri wants you to shed fear based decision making scarcity mentality and reflects of negativity in favor of confidence, abundance and an open mind. Your aptly named host has encouraging words of his own to contribute. What a surprise. No surprise. Sara is principal of Pivot Ground Tony Steak, too. Train. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner. C. P a’s guiding you Beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com By Telus durney Credit card Processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna em a slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine My Pleasure to introduce Sarah Olivieri came down from upstate New York. She’s a non-profit digital strategist, helping Non-profits bring their mission and services to life on the Web. At Pivot Ground, she leads her team of digital experts to help clients increased capacity, deliver better programming, attract more funding and make the world a little better. In college, she studied in Spain, Tanzania and Cuba, then moved to Japan to teach English. Sarah’s company is at pivot ground dot com and she’s at pivot ground. Welcome, Sarah Olivieri. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you for coming down from upstate. I love it when guests come to studio. Thank you. Always my pleasure. You’ve been abroad. You would’ve brought a good bit in your in your life. Yes, I traveled quite a bit. I studied international studies as an undergraduate. And so that took me abroad. And the University of Chicago University of Chicago led me. Tio move to Japan afterwards. Then I came back and to my home community in the Hudson Valley. Start getting involved with the local non-profit. They needed a conference organized which led to running a program which led to starting my own non-profit on. And then I went and got my graduate degree in humanistic, multicultural education. Humanistic, multicultural education. Alright, break that down to make some sense and what was what’s the non-profit thatyou started. Tell us a little about that. Your first? Sure. I started a non profit called the Open Center for Autism. It was following in. The program they had been working at was a school for kids on the Spectrum. High school on that program was shut down. And so I went and started my own program. If if the state isn’t gonna provide it or whatever, the counties that if the school is gonna provide it, I’ll do it myself. That’s right. And hope you mentioned it myself. Okay. All right. All right. Andi, what? How long were you with that organization? What? What happened? Well, kind of good and bad. You know, what happened was the need became so clear that a number of the other local public schools picked up their own programs. So we ended up not starting this school as we anticipated because the need was filled. S o. That was all right. But it was a great It was a great start to learn all the elements of not just starting a nonprofit. But when you charter school in New York State, there’s a whole bunch of extra things that need to happen on that happen when you’re a fundraiser, right? Right. And, you know, thinking about what you do that really led me to go in, like, Wow. I couldn’t find lawyers who knew about how to register a school in New York State s o. I just dove into reading the law myself, and that kind of even deepened my like the stuff isn’t so hard. No one knows how to do it. I’m just gonna dive in and figure it out, okay? And, uh, how long at pivot ground pivot ground has been since, uh, we had another incarnation that started in around two thousand five. But we’ve been in our current state about three years. Okay, you you brought along some some words of encouragement. Like so sort of some symptom and problem areas on DH words of encouragement. I thought this would be a nice wayto. This is really wrapping up the year because the next the next two shows the next two weeks, there are no shows. So this is our end of year Show so and like, end of your encouragement, looking to the future. Ah, people can be feeling overwhelmed. In this In this hectic fourth quarter, Lots of listeners may not even hear this until January, so it could be the look forward kind of show for them. Um, so what are some of the What are some of the symptoms that you hear in your practice that dahna raise your raise, your consciousness raised red flags for, you know, maybe we should be thinking a little differently. Yeah. I mean, anybody who works with Non-profits have heard these things like, we just can’t do it or we don’t have money for that, or we can’t spend on overhead. All our money has to go directly to programming. Actually, had it was part of a local group, kind of a support group for non-profit. Leaders run by front of mind Susan Ragusa. And we talked about this one day, like, scarcity, mindset. And a lot of it, I think, boils down to money. Um, and a lot of people in that room that day said, Yeah, you know, like, I don’t have a good relationship with money. And my non-profit doesn’t have a good relationship with money on guy. Think that it’s a little self identified when they really raised their hands and say, You know, we have we have issues with money. Yeah, but only in the situation where we said this is a safe space and we’re going to talk about scarcity mindset. Otherwise, I don’t hear a lot of people realizing that that that’s kind of one of the cores of the issue is the This relationship with money and resource is just I think that the people say, like, Oh, we’d better like, do it ourselves And I think the reality the worst reality is what I call D E. Why do everything yourself? Yeah, well, we can’t afford the expertise that we need. We’ll just have to learn it ourselves, which takes you away from core work and distracts you terribly down some rabbit hole that someone could come in and be so much more efficient at it. Um, so these are there’s a lot around you talk about money. There’s a lot around fund-raising, too. I just in your own personal experience, how aware of the fact that you had to raise your own money. Were you? When you started the school program? I was pretty aware my mother had actually run a school in much the same way. She just kind of fell into it and figured it out on the job. I did have some family experience, but, you know, related to the money question. I think, Ah, lot of people, you know, when they start feeling in non-profits like we don’t have enough money, the only they see have tunnel vision. They’re like fund-raising. We need to raise money. But that’s only half of the picture. Like you have to be good at spending money as well as raising money. So there’s two sides to this coin about money, and it’s not all raising money, you know, outright gifts. I mean, there there could be revenue opportunities. Yeah, so look, think strategically. You met you, whether you’re capable of producing product or service is or some form of revenue, that other non-profits or government or individuals and whatever will pay for lots of lots of non-profits have a thrift shop. That’s one way of what’s won. Simple way. Not simple that it’s one common way, I should say of raising raising revenue. But you know when we think of fund-raising, it’s not all grants and gifts from individuals. Absolutely not. Right, your revenue stream of revenue right When you’re non-profit, you’re like revenue. What’s that? But that’s that’s just your total money coming into your non-profit fit, and you want that to be somewhat diversified. And now it might sound like we’re talking about a stock portfolio, but we’re talking about your non-profit. You have to think about having some of you know, if you can charge a little for your programs you want, you may want some revenue streams that way. If you can have a donor base of donors who give small donations more regularly. Some donors who give larger domain donations some grants. Maybe there’s some government funding you can apply for. You want a mixed bag, because if one of those pieces goes away, you don’t want to go under. You wanna have a few Resource is you can pull on and the one you didn’t mention. Eyes events which we see I see sometimes a little too much. If we’re going to take our first break, though pursuing they have two. New resource is on the listener landing page. The field guide to data driven fund-raising is practical steps to achieve your fund-raising goals using data. Plus, they have incorporated case studies and demystifying the donor experience guides you through creating a donor journey, plus savvy stewardship strategies for your existing donors could check those out. Tony dahna em a slash pursuing Capital P for please. Now back to the encouragement show. So events sometimes you know, actually often to too much too much reliance on events. I think that comes from a fear of asking someone directly across their desk for a five thousand dollar gift or a fifty thousand dollar gift or whatever it’s going to be. We’d rather invite people to a big party and have them pay tickets, pay money for a ticket at a table we got, You know, you got it again. Diversify. You see Too much event. Definitely, too. I think you know, it’s natural you get into a room of people is like, What can we do with the like our hands? You know, with with an event, but events, most kinds of events that you’re probably familiar with, that non-profits air doing are the least return on investment, meaning you’re going to spend a lot of money and a ton of energy. But I have event you’re absolutely and you’re going to get a relatively small amount of money back. And when I see happens, is if when you lead with events, then you’ve used up your entire fund-raising capacity, your money, your energy. It’s all spent on those events, and you don’t have time for those activities that actually generate a lot more money. I love the example you just shared, like picking up the phone and calling them and asking for money is like super super effective and the non-profits I know who are really great at Fund-raising their executive director Nose, like a handful of twelve major donors who are interested in supporting their non-profit, doesn’t have to be twelve. It’s just an example, and when they need money, they call them up and say, Hey, we need twenty thousand dollars for this program or we’re going to have to close it or, you know, whatever the thing is that they want if they want to take a step forward. And usually when you ask people for something, they give it to you. I love to test this out, and I encourage people. Tell it out like that. Go, you know, go over to your your friend or your relative or somebody on the street and be like, Oh, hey, could I borrow your pen? They’re going to They’re going to do it. Probably They’re going to feel extremely compelled to do it on DH. It’s same thing. When you ask people for money, people are compelled to give something just because you asked. So this this kadre of close, you know, major donors. However, you define major donors based on your needs. And your work, um, is, you know, you’ve recruited them because you know that they’re committed. I mean, they’ve risen to the top. They’ve they’ve been perhaps been volunteers for you. There were people who asked, What can I do? What do your needs, They shine. You know, as you as you’re listening to this, people are probably occurring to you. Oh, yeah, like she’s she’s like that. We’re that couple. Is that you know where the So those are the people you want to continue to cultivate that they do become sort, of course, supporters of yours. So that when you have a big need, you know, those are the people you can go to when you kick off a campaign. Those are the people you talked to initially before you go public with your number so that when you do go public for your hundred thousand dollar campaign, you’ve already got forty or fifty thousand dollars or sixty thousand already committed. And now you’re just asking people to get you to the margin. You know, the other thirty or forty percent those having that kind of a kadre of donors you can go to who, you know, love your work, cultivate those people that is time very well spent and don’t only cultivate them when you need the money. You know, this is a this is a long term process of cultivation bringing people to your Yeah, I think a great way to start with That is what? What some people call the friend raiser. If you’re nervous about, start by just getting those people in the same room just for the purpose of, like having a positive interaction with them. And that’s a great way to build that relationship. I think that there’s another piece to this where a lot of people, when they think about asking people for money, they feel like they’re there feel like they’re a fraud. Or that, like the person who’s giving them money isn’t getting anything in return. You gotta you gotta cut that shit out way Don’t have. We don’t have AA affiliate AM FM stations anymore, so I’m free. I could I could do the George Carlin. You know, seven words if I if I felt like it, we’re not bound by the FCC anymore. So, yes, you’ve got to cut that out and they are getting something. They are getting really the most valuable thing that you could spend money on. They’re getting a positive feeling. They’re getting the feeling of fulfillment. How else do people spend money to get that feeling? They buy food, alcohol, drugs, people who go shopping to feel that feeling of fullness. What? I can’t think of a better way to trade in money for a feeling of doing. You know, that positive, fulfilled feeling than giving money to a non-profit. And the peace of that is, you know, I just was reading about a business book about you know, what is the most motivating thing for employees, and it’s when they feel they’re making a positive contribution. That lead that creates progress. For an outcome that they’re interested and having fun. It’s not salary. It’s a salary, no snack. It’s not exactly so. It’s the same for donors. They’re interested in the outcomes that you’re having. And when they give, they want to feel like they’re helping in that journey there. Making that step a little piece of that step now belongs to them. A little piece of that progress and that’s worth that’s worth real money to people and share it with them. Invite them in. I don’t mean just right. A right. A direct mail letter that shares a story. Yes, storytelling is important, but I’m talking about, you know, if you’re talking about major donors, bring them in, let them see the impact of your work. How can you show it off if you haven’t figured that out yet? Brainstorm with your staff. Brainstorm with your board. How can you show off the impact that you do? There are ways If you can’t bring people to it, you can video it and present it to them. Uh, you can prove your impact. Do it. That’s how you know that. That’s how they’re going to get the positive feeling that you’re talking about, right? That’s what they’re buying their buying. Something from you. You’re not there. Not just giving you money. I think another piece to this is I remember this one in my early days working at a non-profit cause I know I’ve never had a corporate job on DH. And for a moment, I felt well, thank you for money. I would be a terrible employee. I vacation request forms, Please. Can I have the week between Christmas and New Year’s off? Oh, please. Oh, please. What? Are you kidding me? I just take it and I can’t. I can’t. I would be a terrible employee. I believe the interview. I won’t even show up. I show up late because I Because I don’t care. You know, I’d be an awful employees. I would never even get hired. Yeah. What do you make? The second interview got bounced. I won’t even make the full interview. I’d like I probably walk out. What? You kidding me? I don’t need this shit. Why am I even here? I made a big mistake. I’m sorry. I’m getting out. I won’t even make it through the first e here yet, so yeah, So you know when that came in those early on, I was like, This person makes a high salary, like theirjob is making money in some way. That’s why they have their job, and my job, like the purpose of my job is not to make money. I might be making a salary at my non-profit, but ultimately my purpose is to do good. And so somehow I felt like initially that that the person who is giving me money knew something about money that I didn’t and it felt like the scales were because they have it because they have it on and I need it more than we have, right? So they’re smarter about exactly have your about money than I am, and we are right. But now I know better, and I want non-profits to know better, too. What you’re doing is important, and it’s worth money and and you’re savvy because you’re getting people to give you money in exchange for a valuable experience. You know just a CZ much about money, if not more than for-profit businesses. And in fact, I dive a lot into business. Operations for Non-profits and Non-profits are more complicated than for-profit because you always have to target customer groups, even if you’re you know, even if you’re a teeny non-profit, you have the people who donate and give you money. And then you have the people you serve or the impact you’re trying to make and the people who are going to help make that happen. And so by that very nature, by having you always have to audience Ah for-profit company that small can have just one audience, the people who want to buy their product or service. So it’s it’s more simple in that nature to be a for-profit goodcompany before you have shareholders, right so on. But you know, as a board, as if as a small non-profit you have aboard. So that’s like having shareholders when you’re just a teeny cos. True enough. I’m not a financial stake, but yeah, but absolutely. But there’s certainly commitment, right? Commitment, opinions, human relationships. So be proud of yourself. If you’re running an non-profit, you already probably know a lot more than many for-profit business. You’ve got your three constituencies thie service you’re doing whether it’s two people or animals or the environment, there’s that’s considered outta constituents. Your community and your donors and your board. Absolutely. Right now and then, if you have a staff, you know, whenever there’s relationships involved, I like people think about like, imagine you know, you’ve got one person in the room that’s no big deal. You got two people in the room. You think you just doubled. But you actually tripled in complexity because you have two people and hopes you have the relationship between those two people at a third person to the room. You’re not three times bigger than you were when you were one person, you know, have three people, plus the relationships between each two of those people. And when all three of the people are in the room in your mind and now it’s nine, right, Zack, growing exponentially. Which person you add to any kind of dynamic, whether it’s your board, your staff, the people you’re working with you now are exponentially increasing in complex ity on. I think that a lot of non-profits as they start to grow there, like this spaghetti mess starts to begin. And that’s why Because you didn’t expect that you were growing exponentially in all these relationships. Right? It takes people off guard. Doesn’t it often reflect itself in the board? Because as the especially in early phases, as the board is growing, we need more expertise. You know, etcetera. I see it in the board, but I see in the way staff and departments are organized more as you grow and you start adding programs. Sometimes it’s like you might add a program and you might suitable who in our non-profit, like, has capacity to, like run this new programme and you just throw it in. And then often with my clients, who tend to be a little bigger, they they have these kinds of organizational structures that don’t make sense like that. They don’t work efficiently because they just started throwing things in on DH. They didn’t think like very carefully about how exactly should we organize it? We should just They just threw it in where they could. And then we go through a process of kind of reorganizing. So they get so much time back in their day, Are they going to fill it up again with amazing work delivering their mission? Absolutely. But at least then it’s It’s faster progress towards their mission. Yeah, it’s a more deliberate rather than just let’s throw it in, you know, foisted on somebody who they can learn they can train up. That’s the that’s the kind of you know, Yeah, that goes back to the scarcity mentality. We can’t afford the expertise that we need to help us develop this program. We’ll figure it out on our own. Yeah, and I want I want people to stop, Stop thinking that way because there’s two things that I think if you had, if I had like two dollars left in my pocket, I would buy one of two things or both of these things access to expert advice, not even like how you know if you can’t get help doing it, if you don’t have money for the tool getting an expert to tell you which way to go, I think, is like, one of the most valuable ways because they’re going to see things that you don’t. You’re in your own bubble. Even if you were that expert, you wouldn’t be able to see it for yourself. And once they point you in where your next step is, you have a step to take forward the other thing these days that I think people who are really strapped for money will get a huge return off of is investing in some automation. So we have, you know, computers and the Internet can take off a lot of the busy work that your staff might be doing right now. Or if you’re a solo, you know, solo operation. They’re things that you’re doing right now that the computer could start doing for you and free you up to take some real positive growth. Steps to resource is come off the top of my head in that vein non-profit Technology network, which helps, which helps non-profits used technology smarter so that they can focus more on mission. Listeners know Amy Sample Ward are regular social media contributor every month. She’s the CEO of and ten non-profit technology network and ten Dot or GE, and the other one is idealware idealware dot org’s ah, they They are essentially the consumer reports of technology for non-profits. They don’t accept grants or GIF ts off of technology, but they evaluated and they evaluated objectively. The CEO Karen Graham has been on the show. I think she’s been on twice, just really loved when I was an object strenuously, but I don’t think she loves when I make the analogy between idealware and Consumer Reports. But to me, it it works. So those are two excellent resources that are agnostic, you know that They care about platforms. They’re trying to help you in ten and on idealware. Yeah. And you shouldn’t care about platforms. The biggest thing, you know, I work a lot in technology, and I talk about automation and digital strategies for people and the people. They always come like, what tools should I use? And that is the very last question you ask. First you ask, what problem? And I’m trying just trying to do with it, right? Exactly. And if it’s we’re talking about automation. You need to have a process in place of how you do something. So if if it’s not something you repeat and if you don’t haven’t written down how it goes on like what the process is, then you’re not ready to automate. But, you know, and automation can get, like, really complex. It takes like a bit of like mind shifting to think about automation. But people should start simple with automation, and I often like to just remind people that, like there’s elements of your email that can probably already be automated and say Pierre, which is one of the most common tools for connecting things it can actually automate without connecting to ass. I got I got connected to Zippy or some other from someone else do it just this week gdpr you create zaps and and it links like, Aah! Sales force with your with your outlook, right? And actually, Khun, do some automation is just with one app. So, like, if you if I use it. Teo, you know, if you receive an email with a certain subject, it can then, you know, send a reminder to somebody else. Sorry, it’s very company. We just think the tax that it can automate yes between thousands of it. Very good guts, but they’ve got partnerships with that. You can start simple. Lt’s a Piers has a free level, but for Non-profits, you can get their pro level for free if you put their logo on your website. Oh, yeah, so it’s You can really do a lot with Napier. It’s what a lot of the automation people kind of use at some point to connect things, even if they’re using more advanced tools. So I think that’s a great starting step for people. Symptoms of this. If you if you can use automation, I think of If you’re if you find yourself entering the same data in multiple places, doing a lot of copying and pasting routinely. Yeah, there’s a good chance that that could be automated. Sarah, you mentioned email so there are. There are lots of email tasks that could be automated. What you’re following up with people is huge. If you set appointments or need to remind people to do things, automation is great. For that, you can create a Siri’s of emails that remind people to do something on and for non-profits you, especially if you’re a human service non-profit. You can use automation to help deliver some of your programming programs. If you teach a course in your in your organization, you could turn it into an online course. You could make it what we call in Evergreen Online course, which means that it’s like video. The content is written, content and video that as soon as somebody signs up for the course they can, then access the material, so that’s one great way. And parenthetically, is a revenue possibility. There absolutely will be. So think about it. You could charge for your course. You could have, you know, get a donor to commit to like a matching sponsorship. Everybody who enrolls in the course they’ll make a certain donation. Lots of possibilities for that. Andi, just which other symptoms of we could technology could help us here? Absolutely. And you know, I love still of the classic email course email miniseries, um, the kind of tool that you used to this. Anything that does what’s called a drip campaign. That just means email one goes out. You wait two days or however amount of time you set email to goes out. Then email three goes out. It’s just on a timer. And you, Khun, deliver education that way. One of my favorite uses for that is internally, a lot of non-profit struggle with keeping their staff trained or keeping them up today on policies that they really want them to remember. That might not be that fun. We send out reminders of the critical policies and the organization that the staff, especially if they’re like direct support staff need to remember. We often rewrite them and make them a little more fun in the email. It’s like if you want to read the real, you know the original policy, go to the handbook. But we’re going to make this a little more fun and remind you to, you know, drive safely or whatever those key policies are. So it’s a great way people aren’t going to read like if I give most people like a book and say, Here’s the man, you want to read it yet? Do they read it? No, it’s not. But if I turn it into five or six emails that air just like one or two paragraphs long and remind people in a fun way of the things I need to remember their going to read it. Yeah, Provoc could also be part of a campaign. Exactly. Do this with your volunteers with their donors. Um, okay, Automation. All right, so we’ve spent almost the first half of the show just like spitballing. But this is great. You know, I feel like I’m at a bar and we’re just having drinks and, uh, and there’s thirteen thousand people listening in um, but you know, so, uh All right. So you came with more orderly. You know, this is not all just a spitball thing, but leader now, I mean, this show does get planned, but I love this just back and forth. And, you know, it’s what we’re what we’re seeing through the years. Um, okay. We just have about a minute or so before a break. Let’s introduce this idea of overhead. Yet we haven’t, uh, yeah, the lingering overhead myth. Let’s introduce that, and then we’ll pick it up after the break. Sure. The lingering overhead myth, I think Damn pelota grave. A great Ted talk on it, dates back, apparently to the Puritans. But it’s this idea that there’s your programs that where you deliver all your impact and then there’s your overhead and that the overhead has nothing to do with the impact. And overhead is bad and impact is good. So all the money should go towards those impact. And I’m putting quotes around that because, yeah, around those programme activities and nothing should goto overhead because that’s a waste of money s O. But really, that’s not true. May be after the break. We’ll dive into that. Absolutely will. Because that is not true. And we need to I see it being eroded, but we need to kill it. Well, your C. P s. You need help with next year’s nine. Ninety perhaps. Or you are you doing? You’re nine ninety. I hope to God you’re doing You’re ninety for country. Are you thinking about a c P A change, perhaps in twenty nineteen or changing audit firm, maybe time for a fresh look at the books. Look at Wagner. Talk to partner yet each tomb. You know, he’s been a guest on the show. There’s no hard sell. There’s no bullshit duitz It doesn’t matter. We’re That’s right. We’ll have to see free. So I’m getting carried away. Ah, good weather cps dot com Now, time for Tony Steak too. Train your staff. Basic plan E-giving. I’m encouraging you to get them comfortable. Just opening conversations about the most popular type of plan gift, which is the charitable bequest in people’s wills. There’s no lifetime cost to your donors that can keep it private if they want to. I mean, you, you always want them to tell you, but if they want to keep it private. They can. They can change their minds. These air a couple of reasons that bequests are always I don’t care what size organization always the most popular planned gift. And so that’s the place to start. So that’s the place you want to start getting your staff trained just on the basics again, opening a conversation you don’t need in house expertise. You don’t need a lawyer. You don’t even need a consultant like me. You don’t need a lawyer on your board. You don’t need all that because you’re going to refer people to their own attorney because we’re doing this on a You know, this’s a streamlined which is trying to get you into plant giving. You don’t need the expertise. You can open those conversations. All right? I say more about this on my video. Aunt, I bring in the holidays. You see, as I talk about training is awesome. Holiday in search there as well. Ah, and I did it from a beach. And you’ll find that video at tony martignetti dot com. Okay, let’s go back to Sarah Olivieri and the encouragement show. Okay, So the overhead myth. Ah, yeah. So what do you counsel clients? On who? Who say that they’re concerned about possibly spending too much. And are donors going? Think we’re wasting money on overhead? Yeah. I mean, first of all, be brave, be intentional. Know that it’s not true that this I don’t even like to use the word overhead. I call, I say, its operations, right? So, like operations is the backbone of your organisation. Nothing happens without it. It’s the core. It couldn’t be more opposite then. This overhead myth. You need good leadership. You need structures and processes in place in order to make your whatever you’re delivering consistent and efficient. I love to talk about efficiency with non-profit. Okay? You need technology. Just technology, fundez technology. All these supporting you that costs money. Exactly. You need tools. Oftentimes you invest in a tool and you’re going to save so much time for so much money. But people are hesitant. That’s that D y. We’re going to do everything ourselves mentality. And it’s literally when you have that mentality, you’re sinking your own ship because your your ship is your overhead. It is your operational structure. And then it’s like the cargo is all the stuff you’re going to do to deliver your mission. So if you have a teeny ship and you just load on a ton of cargo, you are just going to sink it and you’re not going to deliver any mission. You’re not going to go anywhere and you’re not going to solve any major problems. So you need to make sure that if you’re going to grow programs, you grow your capacity. That means growing your ability to operate, right? So I hope people can begin to think like overhead is operating its function, its investment. In other words, yes. An investment in in your office, in a nice place for people to come to work on investment in professional development for your staff, an investment in technology investing in the future, right? You’re saying, you know, make you tea to be sustainable and have it be the right capacity. These are all investments, right? This is not wasted overhead. It’s investing in the future right here. If you’re planning something new, you might have to invest for a year or two in it and lose money at it. T get up to speed. That’s an investment in a new programme. Exactly. Yeah, I think I think you’re absolutely right and end its fundamental, you know, too many times to talk about, You know, of course, there’s the Non-profits are messy right on Dne on people say not, You know, a lot of non-profits. I’m like, Oh, man, we’re kind of dysfunctional, that dysfunction. That means you don’t have good functioning, Good functioning. That overhead is how you get good functioning. That’s how you become not dysfunctional, that that’s how you become not messy. That’s how you become a clean, effective, oiled machine that just is doing good in the world and can scale that up. If you want Teo and deliver, you know, deliver to more people, um, or whatever. If your environmental organization make a bigger impact, that is the key to making a bigger impact. It is not, you know, spending. You know, I think that the mindset shift that people need to make is they think, Oh, if we’re spending money on operations, it’s like we’re spending money on ourselves and we don’t spend money on ourselves. There’s kind of like that martyr mentality. Yeah, it’s got to go. Really got to go. You are worth investing in your staff is worth investing in your office is worth investing in. Technology is worth investing if you go to. If you go to your office on Monday and you’re boarding up windows X P you are not investing the way you need. Thio technology. Bring that shit to your boss and tell them this has got to go. We’re eight years behind on and just since this is the you know, I want to give some motivations of encouragement for people. You know you are, but you’re more the story and the story. That’s alright. Bien and Yang. Positive. Negative. You have this in you already. The story of Dorothy, right? Dorothy has the power to return home all along, but she has to go through this great journey. All she has to do is click your heels three times and say there’s no place from home. Well, you if you’re running a non-profit right now, or if you’re involved in one no place like home That’s right. I want to go home. I like to be really directed. Right? So you already believe in your non-profits mission? Like I know this about you like listening, right? Now you believe that your mission is worth investing in, which means you already have the power to believe that this is that it’s worth investing in. But you are part of your non-profit. And so you have to believe. Now you have to take that same belief that you believe in your mission and just convinced yourself you are worth investing in. Because if you don’t invest in yourself and in your organization, you’re not investing in your mission. And so if sues you, connect those two dots you already have that power to believe that you’re worth it. I don’t even. Yeah, the overhead myth. The way we gotta bury it, we got to kill it and bury it. It’s gone. All right. Um, something you have some ideas around feeling like you. You appear that you don’t have enough or appearing that you have too much Teo. Donors what? What is this? What is this second guessing? Why we looking over our our shoulders at ourselves? Why? We’re looking over our own shoulders. How did we do it? Yeah. Why are we looking over our shoulders? Wear we second guessing where we how we’re perceived, you know, I had a nice coincidence. I had two clients start where he will be around the same time on DH within within a week of each other. Had these two conversations, one client was a non-profit who had money and they said, Well, we’re afraid that, like if our website and our brochures and stuff look good, people are going to think we have a lot of money and they’re not going to want to give to us right. And then the other client who was a very small startup didn’t have any money, said We need our we need our brochures on our website to look really good because if people know that we don’t have money, they won’t give to us. And guess what? It doesn’t matter if you have money or if you don’t have money. You have just be authentic. Be yourself, play your own game, run your own race. If you have money, people will say Hey, this organization’s impact is important. That’s always the first thing and wow, they’re stable, They’re sustainable. They have enough money I’m going to give to them because I know that they’re going to keep going for the other one people want to give to their impact the primary driver. Is that like that emotional return? Yes, For some people, there’s the tax benefit. But I really think that secondary or twenty three year, twenty years in fund-raising consulting and it’s absolutely secondary. Yeah, for they’re buying an emotional return. They’re buying a feeling on DH And so but if you don’t have money, then you say, Hey, we don’t have money. We’ve got this amazing thing that we want to do. We have a great way, way so far, right? We want to scale do this with a thousand people instead of the dozen that we’ve served so far. Right. So you’ve got a great argument whether you don’t have money or you do have money with one caveat. If you’re worried that you’re not really delivering the impact that you say you are, measure it. Measure your impact. And if you’re not, if you if you take it and you’re like, man, we’re not really two making the changes. We thought you were just reorganise. Start time to pivot, right. It’s time to invest in that overhead and utter and figure out you know how you can make that impact cause you probably didn’t. You know, there’s a need there. There’s always a need. This goes to also just you touched on, you know, be genuine. Be honest. People can people when they’re talking to you less. So when they’re reading your material, that’s one dimensional. But but it applies somewhat. There. Two people can tell when you’re genuine and when your phony you know, if if you’re a small shop in your producing fancy four color brochures or you’re spending money on lavish video production, when when low production value could be just a sincere and jet or more sincere and genuine people see through that stuff, you know, be yourself. You said it yourself. Don’t And don’t don’t be ashamed of who you are and what you’re what you’re coming, too. Yeah, and when the way you look exactly. And both those problems, you know, relate to those air marketing marketing concerns, and I just like his marketing gets thrown around a lot. I like to just clarify, like what is marketing and because it’s not a department. Marketing is a means to an end. Marketing is about finding people whose who have an issue or problem that you can solve. So if it’s a donor, it means they’re looking for this positive experience. If it’s somebody who you might serve, it means they have, you know, you have a solution to the issue in their lives and then engaging those people who you found who already basically need what you have so that they take action with you. That’s marketing. Yeah. We have to take a break. OK, Eso look over your page air and you’re goingto welcome you to introduce the next topic right after this break. Tell us. Start with the video at Tony Dahna em a slash Tony, tell us don’t think what companies can you talk to toe? Ask them to switch their credit card processing to tell us maybe it’s one owned by a boardmember. It’s a local company that supported you or one that you’ve been thinking about approaching because you have a relationship of some type. Talk to them, have them watch the video. If they switch, you get the long stream of passive revenue from all those credit card um, transactions that they process. Tony Dahna may slash Tony. Tell us for the video. It’s not for the live listener love. We’ve got to do it. Did you think I had forgotten because I didn’t do it after Tony take to perish the thought? Hell, no. I could get it going further than hell. No, but I’ll just stick with hell. No. Um So where are we? So let’s go abroad. I want to go abroad. Russia. We cannot see your city But we know that you’re with us. Russia, Live Love out to you Toronto up north. Welcome. Live Listen, love to you Mexico We can’t see a city And we got multiple Mexico. We have more ellos Mexico as well So we can see more ellos live love to you point a start is and the city we cannot see live love out to you Also, we got multiple New York, New York. Always got multiple New York, New York, Brooklyn, New York is in Queens, New York. Thank you very, very much. I don’t see anybody upstate. Sarah. Olivia. He didn’t bring her tribe, but they’ll listen to the podcast. And that’s the podcast. Pleasantries that come on the heels of the live listener love. You know, it’s the podcast Pleasantries that one dreaded follows the other can’t have. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot. It’s actually matter pleasantries to the thirteen thousand plus podcast listeners throughout the mostly in the US But I know throughout the world, but I know the UK checks in I know we’ve got listeners in Germany and now we’ve got Mexico podcast listeners also Ah, pleasantries, pleasantries to you, the vast majority of our audience. Thank you for being with Non-profit radio. Okay, What did you pick? What we were talking about Next. We’re gonna talk about wasting money, wasting money. What do you got? Well, I think you know a lot of people. It goes back to what we first talked about, right? This bad relationship with money and that a lot of people feel like when we spend money at Non-profits were flushing it down the toilet. When we spend it, it’s gone. That’s what’s happening. And that’s not the relationship I want youto have with money. I want you to realize that the way you should be spending money the way you hopefully our is thinking about what am I going to get back for my money and my getting Mohr value back than the money costs me. So you know, I get excited about spending money, not because I love spending money, but because whenever I choose to spend money in my business, I’m always getting something back that’s worth even more to me than the money that’s going to take me to the next level. So it’s great. It’s always like this exciting moment of growth where I’m getting something on DH. That is the mentality they really want people to adopt this coming year is that when we spend it, we are not throwing it away. But if you’re not thinking about what you’re getting back then, you might be wasting money. S O. This is one of those like, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. If you feel like spending money is wasting money, then the chances that you are wasting money are away. Hyre if you feel like spending money is a process of trying to get more back then you spent then you’re probably not wasting you want value for the dollar that each dollar you spend exactly. So I definitely want you to think about that. Another thing that’s related to this, I think, is a lot of people think about, You know, we need something it costs. I don’t know. Two thousand dollars, twenty five hundred dollars. We don’t have that money. Now. When we have that money, then we’ll spend on this. And that’s just like a process. I was just like in the future, if you have more money, we’ll spend on that. That money is never going to come. There’s not going to be a delivery of money that says you’re marked for this purpose that you’ve been putting off for eighteen months. Exactly gonna happen that way. So here’s the way I want youto think like time. Sorry. Exactly what? You’re not gonna find time now when I could find the time. I’ll do that. No. If it’s something that’s worth, well, you gotta make the time. That’s consciously put the time. Put the time aside now. And if you’re constantly putting it off, then you need to evaluate. Maybe this thing that we think talking about is not that important. Or maybe you’re not prioritizing correctly. Exactly. It’s just it’s it’s recognizing the value of time and the fact that it’s just not gonna land on your desk a week. Oh, here’s that project time you’ve been thinking about for eighteen months doesn’t happen that way. You need to be much. You need to be intentional about it. Exactly. Attention about time. Attention about money. So here’s the new way. I want people to think about it is that if you’re thinking, I need something stop and say What is the problem that I’m having? If you think you need a website if you think you need automation, stop for a moment and say What’s the problem I’m having If you think I need fund-raising say what’s the really cool Rob? What is the real problem? Get down to that problem. Could be a person. It could be a person, right? A process could not be working. A person could be in the wrong seat. It could be You know, it could be any number of things from outside influence, right? Once you’ve found that real problems say, if I fix this problem how much is that worth to me? If I don’t have this problem? If this problem is gone, how much is that worth to me? What can I do next? If this problem is gone and then say how much time money resource is. Am I willing to spend to have this problem gone? And then then you have your budget, if you can solve it for less bio all means. But then you have your number. You have your number, and then you go get that money. You say I need this problem solved. I see this probably the most painful area where I see this is with employees. If you have the wrong people in the job and you’re just, like, afraid toe, let them go or afraid to change their position. That is really hard. But if you ran the numbers, you bilich I’m wasting, like, fifty thousand dollars a year on this person. Shopping, energy and other people see it as well, right? No, it’s about the other people in the organization know it’s a bad fit that they’re seeing a day in and day out of their employees. It’s draining you. Yeah, so your problems are probably costing you more than you realize. And if you really think about that, you’ll be like, Oh, yeah, we’re going to raise that money right now, and that problem’s going to be gone. Let’s talk about something you mentioned early on fund-raising events, events sucking the life blood. What did you What did you say? It caught me. But But I But I also want to talk about you know, that over reliance on events. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I said I think like it sucks the capacity. All of your fund-raising capacity goes to putting on an event because the time Yeah. And then you have nothing left in you to do the more important fund-raising. Like, if you’ve done all other fund-raising strategies and you still have a ton of time and energy on your hand, do an event. But if you haven’t just, like, try not to do that event, try to stop doing it trying to do any other fund-raising strategy event. Also, a lot of times you have tio, um, defeat on argument by a boardmember. Yeah, that events. You know, I just went to this great gala, and they raised two and a half million dollars. Yeah. Okay. Well, so what size organization was that? Did they have entertainment that cost him three hundred fifty thousand dollars? You know, to get to get Don Henley on stage or something. Oh, are the Eagles, you know? So Don Henley here’s the Eagles. Okay, so you know, board members often come with these gala ideas because they just played, and they just they just played in a golf tournament. Or they were just at this lovely event at a restaurant. Is it? You have to help your board members recognize that you likely don’t have the capacity to produce the event that they’re trying to get you to do and then want something you might do is ask them to chair it, right? Exactly. And the event that they went to probably didn’t actually like after expenses. Probably right. And sometimes people think just about you know what they netted at, you know, based of costs, but put on that event, but they forget to calculate that it took, like, one of their employees full time work for three to six months. So you factor in there that salary chances are you’re taking a loss, and a part of the argument is, but think of all the people will bring. We get hundreds of people thinking about us and giving to us. Whoa, Thinking about us? Yeah, they’re thinking about you that night giving to you. That’s a big stretch. That’s a huge stretch, and there’s enormous follow-up That has to happen. And notoriously, event attendees who came because they’re friends invited them are unlikely to become long term sustainers for you. They were happy to do that. They were happy to buy the fifty dollar table or the fifty dollars seat with a two hundred fifty dollars ticket, whatever it was. But beyond that, it takes a lot of cultivation to get them to become close to you that they give beyond the annual event. So don’t let your whoever espousing this this great gal idea talk you into the idea that every everybody who comes is going to become a major donor instantly. It does not happen. There’s enormous cultivation and has to take place after that event. In fact, you know a pivot ground. We don’t really focus on fund-raising that much in a lot of people who come to me with, like we need to do fund-raising I say, Okay, well, what’s your capacity to like, manage donors like, Are you able to follow-up donor follow-up with donors? Do you have somebody who can like put together a fund-raising strategy. No, you need to do that for because there were these hundreds of people who come right reportedly come to this event exam you have No, you have no capacity to fall to do the follow up. Right. And for small non-profits out there, you know your thing thinking like, Oh, I need to do my end of your fund-raising letter. Ask yourself first, Do you have a list of people to send it to? No, but don’t worry about the letter. Move on to an activity you can do Move on to list building host a friend raiser host a holiday party that costs you almost nothing. Get some contacts on your list. Someone someone’s home, right? I love small events are great Hold that thought will come back to get take our last break text to give Talk about email many courses. Sarah was talking about the drip campaign. The five part email Many course debunking five myths. Do you think text donations have to go through a phone bill? And so they take ninety days to collect? No, not true. Doesn’t have to be that way. Do you think there are high startup costs? No, not so. There’s a lot of misinformation around. Text e-giving. You can raise more money, get the email many course from text to give you text. NPR to four, four, four nine nine nine, five Emails. Okay, We’ve got several more minutes for this encouragement show. All right, sometimes, as just now happens, as sometimes happens, I forgot what we were just talking about many events, but I’d love to talk about our pieces in the buying process, wake and finish up with many of them. That something? Yeah. In someone’s home. Right. Deal. This is ideal for the boardmember. Who says I hate fund-raising? Okay, you can help us. Friendraising you can bring some people will bring some of the some people to you’re not only responsible, but we’re gonna have We’re going twelve or fifteen people on DH. There’s going to be a short presentation by me. The CEO on We’re going toe that, you know, that’s something manageable, right? Weaken follow-up with twelve or twenty people. Exactly. And it should cost you roughly nothing. Like usually, like you get a host who has a nice house and we’ll buy dinner and, you know, make dinner you get. Maybe someone else donates the wine. Or you might have a host told Burghdoff grantmaking dinner. Exactly record make dinner or Kate or whatever their level is, there’s lots of people who would host a dinner for eight to twelve people in their homes. You know, you somebody from your organization, a couple boardmember show up and then you just have to Between your organization and the hosts contact list, you invite a small group of people and those can have fantastic turnout’s a great way to spend money and energy that you spend money. But spend energy. Yes, not so much money. Right? So eight to twelve. You could cook for that. But I was thinking, like, twenty might want to cater that right? Exactly. And it all depends on what your resource is air like. Who’s you know who’s house? It’s at what you’ve got. What you waiting get to think about. These cultivate small cultivation events, right? Much, much more manageable in terms of both front end and the follow-up. After that, what’s your point? Right? And you’ve got a follow-up after the event, and you know you really want to focus on that moment. That the donation is given and then expanded out from both ends. What happens? What’s their experience after they gave their donation? And what’s their experience just before? So a lot of people focus on making a great experience so that somebody gives them the donation. But then they forget about the follow-up after somebody gives, which is just a CZ important because you want them to give again and tell their friends that was great. That was the, uh, what What about the donor journey that pursuant as they have a whole, they have, ah, resource on this demystifying the donor experience. It’s exactly what, at twenty dollars slash pursuit with a Capital P. It’s exactly what you’re talking about. That donor journey mapping the experience out exactly. Exactly. It’s really important. Another tip I have for people is, you know, if you have a website, you can probably make a unique donation landing page for each of your board members. That way, when they go out and start soliciting their personal contacts to say, Hey, would you give to my organization? They can send them to a landing page. It’s like This is the donation page for my organization. But it’s got, like, as if I’m the boardmember. It’s got my name and picture on it and what my pitches to most of my friends and that way I know that when I give my friends and I’m asking him to make a contribution when they do, they’re having an experience that’s connected to me and that I know what that experience is going to be. And then for the organization, you know, exactly like you could give me credit as a boardmember, you know, you’ll know whence one of my contacts makes a donation because they came through my painting at the organization’s all trackable personalized boardmember landing page. Yeah, yeah, simple, even a short shit that you like for landing pages. I’m not particularly, you know, we do website, so we actually usually build them in the in the site itself. Um, and otherwise, you know, lead pages. Oftentimes if it’s a donation page, Whatever tool you’re using to list your pages, this is an area where it can get kind of complicated for non-profits picking the right tech stack we call it. That means the tools you’re going to use that all work together, so But yeah, there’s no specific recommendations. Really matter what you have already in places where you need to bring in experts in this, that is the moment. Like private group. Yeah. Pivot ground. That’s right. All right, so there was something we just have, like two minutes or so left you lying process, You know, r r f. P s and the buying process. You know, I think a lot of non-profits rely too heavily on our piece. Like our peace, Our good. Ifyou’re like, we have plans for building and we’re now going to build the building, we need a contractor doing R F P. But you don’t need an r f P for everything. And especially if you’re going to get, like, expert advice or have your situation assessed, You don’t need an r F. Pierre, you don’t need a complicated r f P. It could be like, What are you selling and what’s your process? Or maybe it’s like rather than rpm, it’s an announcement. Like it doesn’t have to be this giant document like, Hey, we’re hiring for this. Come, tell us if you if you solve this problem. And another thing is you, when you make complicated R F P is especially no in the marketing space. Like most good marketers, I know good Web people. They won’t respond to our I’ve had guests on the show talking about the R F P process for tech. Protect provoc. You’re going to get the bottom of the barrel. They won’t respect. You have to intensive. So if you can avoid it at all, costs like don’t do are of peace for tech projects. And then I think another thing is I’ve come across this concept that doesn’t I don’t understand of non-profits thinking, we have to be fair in who were hiring. And I think that this comes from like, we don’t want to be corrupt or we don’t want to, you know, have a conflict of interest that causes us to hire someone out of favoritism. But and you should make sure, though instead that you’re getting the best value for your non-profit. Don’t get this fairness. What do you mean? I heard it a lot like, Oh, well, we just left. Sure. So here’s a great one. We can’t hire someone who’s on our board. Who’s an expert in this because they’re on our board, and it wouldn’t be fair. They already know what the project is. And that’s just silly. I think people get confused about conflict of interest versus confluence ditigal hyre them, they become an employee, and then they shouldn’t. Probably they should not be on your board anymore as an employee, but but they could still be some kind of. Now you’ve got their expertise, right? Or if they offer a service, you know, you know, they shouldn’t be the only one. You asked for it, but chances are, if your board members a professional, I’m sure if you were on a board, you would give your services at that. Probably a better rate than anybody else would. Well, so you know this process of going out and getting a few quotes on something that’s great. But the purpose is to get the best value for your organization. Not to be fair to all the people out there. We’re gonna leave it. There grayce Sarah Olivieri. You’ll find her at She’s at Pivot Ground and the company’s pivot ground dotcom. Thank you very much. Thank you. It was a great conversation. Thank you. Next week, there’s no show. The week after that, there’s no show, no show. For the next two weeks. We’ll be back on January fourth. I hope you enjoy the hell out of your holidays. Take time for it. Make time for yourself. Don’t just look to find it. Make time for yourself some quiet time over the holidays. Enjoy the hell out of it. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P Wet Nurse Oppa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com. Bye. Tell us credit card in payment processing, Processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A creative producer is clear. Myer, huh? Chris Gutierrez is today’s line. Producer shows Social Media Is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scott Steiner. Brooklyn. You with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What? Great. Go. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving. Xero cubine you are listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? 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Did you know you’ve been playing poker your whole life, even if you’ve never played a hand of cards? Hi, I’m Ellen Lake and author of Polka Woman and host of the new show Poker Divas. On the show, I talk about poker. Strategy helps you win in business, Life and Love tune in Live every Thursday one p. M to two p. M. Eastern Standard Time on talk radio dot N. Y. C. You’re listening to talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant. And on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at twelve Noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio dot N. Y c. You’re listening to the talking alternative network.

Nonprofit Radio for December 7, 2018: Lean Impact

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Ann Mei Chang: Lean Impact
Your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that help fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in Silicon Valley. Ann Mei Chang says you need to, if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book, “Lean Impact.”

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of depress opus. If you made me face the idea that you missed today’s show lean impact, your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that helped fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in silicon valley. And mae chang says you need to if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book lean impact on tony. Steak, too. Train. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant bye weinger cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony. Credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text n pr to four four, four nine nine nine it’s a pleasure to welcome and may chang to the show. She’s the author of lean impact. How doe in innovate for radically greater social good. She’s worked as chief innovation officer at yusa idea and mercy corps and serve the u. S department of state as senior adviser for women and technology in the office of global women’s issues prior to her pivot to the public sector and may have more than twenty years experience as a technology executive at google apple and into it, as well as a range of startups. She’s at an mei and her book is at and made dot com. I’m very glad her book brings her to non-profit radio. Welcome to the show and may thank you so much for having me, tony. Real pleasure. Oh, you’re coming in loud and clear. Your your tech is you’re not surprising that your tech is awesome. Sound great. Thank you. Um, this lean impact process that you’ve evolved comes from the lean startup movement. Eric. I read his book, but i don’t know how to pronounce his last name. Is it? Reese? Isn’t eric reese? Yeah. Eric mary-jo k. Yeah. So within that, as a lean startup came from toyota manufacturing. Talk a little about just, you know, some little overview of lean startup and how you’ve morph this into the social change, social change, work and lean impact. Yeah, sure. So eric restore the book called lean startup about seven years ago now where he described a methodology for building products and services under conditions of extreme uncertainty. And this is certainly, you know, it’s it’s growing out of his work in silicon valley on dh, his own failures and what he learned from this failures about how we build products better on dh. You know, although it came out of silicon valley, it’s since then been highly papa popular and been adopted no, in business, both big and small and government and around the world. It’s been a new york times bestseller. It sold over a million copies and, you know, and this issue of extreme uncertainties really important. So if you’re building a product or service that is well understood and well defined, and you know exactly what you need to do, then what you care about is predictable execution. But if you’re trying to build something in a realm of high uncertainty, what you need is to figure out how to speed up your process of learning. And that is his court. Insight is that if we don’t know where we’re trying to get to what we need, to do is learn as quickly as possible to figure out the best way to get there. And why should i non-profits care about what came from lean startup, which now your book lean impact? Yeah, so, you know, if the lean startup was originally very focused on silicon valley, like i said in this branch out from there. But if you think about tech start ups, they work with high uncertain because they’re trying to build products and services no one has ever done before and not in the same way create new business models, new technologies and so forth in the nonprofit world. I would argue that we have at least a much if not more uncertainty, were generally working on challenges that are a big complex and entrench that have been around for ages and where the solutions we have are simply insufficient. Otherwise, we’d all be out of business. And so we give that we’re dealing with this incredible uncertainty both and not having interventions that are necessarily good enough. A cz well is not having one that can scale dramatically enough. That’s where techniques such a lean startup i become really appropriate. And yet you know the reality is that innovating and the social sector is much, much harder on. We can talk about all the reasons why, but, you know, from coming from silicon valley into the social sector. At first i thought i’d have it easier in some ways. But in fact it’s much, much harder because, you know, we have to deal with things like highly restrictive funding, you know, impact that can be difficult to measure. It may take years to realize that we worked with vulnerable populations for the whole notion of experimentation. Khun seem irresponsible you. In fact, you lay out some of this. I wantto i ripped out page sixty three from your book. I’m not gonna ask you to quote page sixty three. I doubt you haven’t memorized by page, but because i don’t bring, i’ll bring books to the into the studio, but i ripped out page sixty three and i wantto i’m going to read ah, paragraph. And i think this sets it up a cz just as well as you did. And and ask some very important questions that your book and this whole process set out to answer a grassroots community named lien impact sprang up several years ago as an offshoot of the lean startup movement, bringing together hundreds of practitioners. What has been missing is a framework that answers the common questions that arise when theory meets reality. How do i experiment when my funding is based on activities and deliver a bles that air predefined? How can i create a feedback loop? But it takes years for true impact to become evident. Is it responsible for us to experiment on people who are already vulnerable? Where do i find the resource is to test and iterated when i can barely make payroll? And i thought that was a really striking paragraph on dh. Set it up all very nicely on dh serves as some motivation for people in our non-profit community, too. Well, frankly, they’re gonna start with buying the book. I mean, that’s the first step you got. Tio got it by the book on then and then become acquainted with the practice of the impact. Yeah, and i think in that paragraph, really just try to call up some of the unique town does their face in the nonprofit sector who were trying to innovate. It’s not that we don’t want any of it. That’s not profit. Leaders very much care about these issues, care about their mission, want to figure out better solutions but worked within constraints that make it very hard to do so. I know many non-profit leaders that i’ve read the lean startup or similar types of books on the similar types of training and go back to the days you know their day job and just feel stuck because these these different impediments making much, much harder to innovate. And so, with the lean impact book, i’m not trying to come up with some new rocket science way of doing something. You know, most of the techniques i talked about are fairly common sense. But what i do try to do is look at how do we do this? Do these common sense things in the context of social good where we have to work within these kinds of strength, and i do so by bringing forward the stories of organizations that have been incredibly successful that has found ways to navigate these and other challenges. Ok, i agree. You did do that, and, uh, we’re gonna go out just, ah, moment early for our first break. And when we come back, you and i will talk about the way the book is organized around the three hypotheses. So first break pursuant they have to resource is to help you use data for improved fund-raising. The field guide for data driven fund-raising was riel world case studies of organizations using data to hit their fund-raising goals all data driven, just like pursuing typically is and the other is demystifying the donor experience revealing simple ways to develop relation a ll donordigital durney for your donors. You find them both at the listener landing page tony dot m a slash pursuing capital p for, please. And may you have these three hypotheses that the that the book is built around inspire, validate and transform. Can you? Ah, you sort of set these up for us and then we looked at, and then we’ll pedal through and we’ll touch down as much as we can. But, you know, we only have an hour. You just people got it by the book. I mean, that’s all there is to it. So go ahead, please. Yes, you’re i think you’re talking about the three parts of the book on the book is organized into three parts. The first part is inspire, and i think one of the biggest challenges in the social sector is that we tend to plan within constraints. We look at the amount of the money we have, amount of staff, we have the size and scope of grant and we think, what can we do with what’s in front of us with these? Resource is. And so i think the first line set shift is tio. Think big e also codify three principles really starts. A person would just think that that that we need to start thinking instead of what can we do with within the constraints we have, but what is needed in order to move the needle on the problems that we care about. And so the first part of the book is really looking at how do we expand our horizons? B’more ambitious about what we’re trying to do. Um, then the second part of the book, validate, is really the core of the book is what the lean startup is about is once, you know, have that you know, you’re thinking big, you have big aspirations. You have a potential solution that might work. How can you validate that solution to determine quickly, cheaply, a. Cz possible, whether it does deliver the things that you hope it will be. Too often we spend too much time heading down the wrong path on dh, wasting a lot of time and money before realizing some of the mistakes we’ve made. None of us a t least, not myself, can design something perfectly for such complex problems that we work on. And so figure out how we accelerate the pace of learning so that we can validate what you know. The risks that we are taking on by playing a new solution is essential to getting to a solution that works, and the third part of the book is called transform. And and that’s really looking at, you know, beyond sort of any individual organization and what they can do to both identify their problems. Think big, start small and experiment. How do we look at the broader system that we work in to transform the system to help us all be more effective? And that includes both with respect to solving problems the system change that is required. It also pertains to organizations. How do we change the culture of organizations? But it also applies to the sector at large. How do we change the dynamics of funding in the relationship between funders and non-profits so that we can all achieve more of what we’re looking for. Thanks. Excellent. Set up. And i see i understand my mistake. I called. I called these year your hypotheses, but you’re the hypotheses or value growth and impact, so thank you. Yeah, that’s well, we’ll get to those, but those are the three parts of the book. That was or not three hypotheses. I don’t want to confuse people who confuse our listeners. You you say that, you know, i i mean, i see i saw his like your objective, and this is the last last time i’m going to quote the book. Okay. I mean, i don’t i don’t read books backto authors who have written, but i just love this, too. If you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems like, you know, that’s what you’re trying to help people do through lean impact. Most efficient, greatest social benefit at the largest possible scale. And my buy-in. Are you still there? You know, you cut out their part way through the quotes, so i didn’t quite hear the whole quote. Well, that’s a problem, okay? It’s if you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems to me that’s what you’re trying to get get non-profits to to achieve. Yeah, exactly. I mean, i think that again because of a lot of systemic constraints we work in a lot of times what we’re doing is nibbling away at the edges. Were putting band aids on problems and doing some good on dh, making some difference, which is fantastic. But i think there’s a lot more we could do. And the reason that i wrote the book look at how can we bring some of these tools that have worked in other domains were squarely into the social sector so that we can deliver greater impacted skillsets. That’s ultimately what we’re all after. Andi. It’s just harder to do what one thing i would sort of add to that is, you know, in the business world, companies are expected to maximize shareholder value or maximize profits on dso everything, cos do you know all the decisions that they make day today? The metrics they collect, you know, sort of incentive they set up all around. How do we match my shareholder value? How do we maximize profits? And what i love to see is in the social sector. You know, whether you are a donor or whether you’re non-profit or whether your social enterprise that we hold ourselves that same standard to stay. We’re thinking impact. How do we maximize our impact? Not just how do we have some impact and sort of feel like we’ve done some good how we maximize that impact, and that’s really what the book is about is trying to put lord some tools that can help us magnify the impact that we’re having, because the things that we’re trying to solve are so grandiose, they’re so large, the problems with the problems that non-profit too devoted to our just so enormous. Yeah, absolutely. So starting with, you know, inspiration on dh listeners. I have heard many, many guests say the place to start is with your goals, you encourage you, you clamor for audacious goals. Yeah, absolutely. I think non-profits usually have audacious missions. The thing that i think is often missing, though, is that those missions are aspirational and their vague. There, you know, we’re going to end poverty, and instead what i want to encourage us to do is that much more concrete goals that are measurable, that our time down there geographically bound so that we know where we’re trying to get two more concretely and have those goals be goals that we don’t know how we’re going to get you yet. Because if you can achieve your goals with business as usual, there’s no reason to take risks or one potentially failing to innovate those cycles that really are a stretch but that are measurable so that we can tell whether we’re making enough progress towards wth um, um, and that sets the stage to orient everyone in the organization, as well as the other partners, to know exactly what we’re trying to get you. If you think of president kennedy’s call to send a man to the moon that galvanized the nation to try to figure out, how are we going to do this thing that we don’t yet know? How to do. And i think for non-profits, if we don’t set more concrete goals, it’s you know, if there’s a temple, it’s easy to fall into the trap of just moving in the right direction but not necessarily moving fast enough or deeply enough. Ah, part of what you point out is ah related to. This is a problem that we tend to fall in love with our solutions and you want us to fall in love with the problems. Yeah, i love the phrase fall in love with your problem, not your solution. I think this is a problem. Also in the business world that organizations can, companies can get very excited about their product or service. And and you get stuck to that and forget about what problem they’re trying to solve. I think it’s an even greater challenge in the social sector. I think that they’re there’s a tendency to fall in love. Are with our problems even more for a number of reasons. One is that whatever solution we have, we often it’s usually doing some good where that we don’t have a solution that’s doing some good. And so therefore we’ve seen it make a difference in real people’s lives on dso weaken become emotionally patch we wanted do whatever it is four more people even if it’s not the optimal thing to do even if there’s a potential to do something more it’s it’s easy to get stuck in that because we’ve seen it do some good and we don’t want to get it out because there’s a real need but there’s also i think because of the dynamics of social lt’s actor were constantly promoting our solutions. This is what you see on people’s websites. It’s what we’re pitching the thunder saying this is the best thing that you could possibly fund-raising dent if i with it becomes part of our organization als identity. And so it’s very hard to let go of any particular solution you have and what’s interesting to me. I talk to and work with a lot of different non-profits is that, you know, i can talk to ten different non-profits in the same sector, and they’ll all tell me that their solution is the best possible solution and out there, and i can’t imagine that that’s true. They can’t all possibly be right. Andi. Yet everyone has that we felt belief. So i think it’s important for us to have the data and look at the data, see what really is the best solution and of our solution isn’t the best recognised that and look at how we can improve it or look at how we can adopt. I’ve somebody else’s solution or elements of someone else’s solution or partner with someone else. And you know that kind of rigor behind delivering them. But most impact we ken will get us a lot further. You’re a computer scientist, you know. So you’re. Of course. That’s why you’re something stronger than encouraging your insisting that we be be data driven, your scientist. And so you’re bringing the rigor of the scientific method to this social change work. Um, we’ll get to, you know, it’s just that it’s tempting to talk about it now. You know, you thought of your book is how to make this change in your your in your organization that culturally. But i have to talk about it now, too, because we’re we’re talking about ego. This is this is difficult for people to abandon ego, put aside ego and recognize that their solution isn’t the best that there, that the work that they have been devoted to isn’t the best way the best way teo, to solve the problem that that that they’re attacking ego is because a tough thing to teo fiddle with toe get people to put aside yet. And organizations and an organization to put aside. Yeah, i mean, both individually and this organization’s again because we’re doingood. Our tendency is tio want encourage each other, pat each other on the back, you know, encourage each other. You’re doing good. Keep going. Keep doing this. You know you’re taking it a lower salary. You’re working long hours. Like who wants to discourage people who are doing that on dh. One of the things that i loved about coming into the social sector is, you know, just the culture. You know, people are so encouraging, so embracing, so supportive of each other. And yet i think something is also lost in that that we because we want to encourage each other. We often are reluctant to ask each other. The hard questions of, you know is working as well as it could. Could we do more, you know, kind of point out ways that maybe something is not quite meeting its full potential on when i said you’re a computer scientist, i didn’t mean to minimise the what? Two decades almost of work that you’ve been in non-profits as well. So i don’t know what the balances. But you’ve you’ve done quite a bit of work in the nonprofit community to i didn’t mean to say that. You’re you’re fresh to the non-profits. That’s not that’s not the case at all. All right. So you want us to think big with these audacious goals that are properly bounded? Think big, but start small. We’ll flush out. Out? Yes. So once you have that audacious goal, there’s a temptation to say i have a solution. That’s good enough. Let’s just execute and deliver as much of it as we can. But when we start small, it allows us to run experiments much more quickly and cheaply. If you’re working with five or ten or fifty people, you can be much more nimble. You can try things out. You, khun, learn much more quickly. You can adapt and change much more quickly than if you’re working with thousands of people. And so, by starting small allows us to accelerate that pace of learning again where we don’t have a solution that we know is good enough to fully solve the problems that we’re we’re trying to address. Okay, now this yeah. So this is ah, quite contrary to teo. What’s traditional and typical and quite a bit less efficient than than what you’re you’re promoting. What help people understand you mentioned these experiments. So what these experiments going to look like with ten people or fifty people instead of five thousand people. Yeah, sure. Let me give an example, maybe from from social enterprise in kenya. So there’s a a social enterprise called copia global in kenya that decided that that decided to focus on the issue, that people who are low income, the being in remote rural areas have a very limited choice of consumer goods. They can only really get this staples, and so they have a lot less choice of things that can enrich their lives. And so they set out this address this problem to give people much wider choice by, you know, sort of being the amazon, if you will, of rural kenya. And you know what some organizations might do is to go out, you know, build some warehouses, build transportation infrastructure, build some catalogue ordering system hyre a bunch of staff and so forth and roll out an offering. And i would take a lot of time and effort and money to do so. Instead, they decided to run an experiment minimum viable product, or m. V. P, which are these small experiments that eric talks about in the lead startup that allow us to validate our assumptions. First, until the case of copia global, their assumptions that they wanted to test were first would people order from a catalog was something people would find appealing. Second, what kinds of products would be most interested in? And third would agents cell from the catalogue could because they find agents that would help them sell in these different areas. And so what they did in their mvp was that the ceo at the time crispin went to the sort of walmart equivalent in the city and took photos of a bunch of different products, paste them into a handful of catalogs and gave them out to a potential agents and a few villages and step back to see what would happen. And now, when somebody came in and they want to place an order, the agent, we give him a call he would literally himself go run to the store, pick up that product just at the retail store by it, carry it to the village and deliver it. And certainly this is not something that was scalable at all, but it’s something that they could get up and running in the course of a few days, or a week and start to learn. And what did they learn? One. They learned that people were ordering from the catalog. It was appealing. People did have a demand for these products that were too hard for them to get, and so they validated demand. Second, they learned what products people were most interested in that help them figure out what things to put in their catalog when they actually wrapped up the business, what things to stock in the warehouse and so forth. And third, they had a surprise that people they thought would be the best agents who were the kiosk owners or the people who had these kind of corner stocked store equivalent that sold consumer staples. They thought that those would make the best agents, but they turned out to be terrible agents because there are far more interested in moving their own inventory in the store. But what they found out was that what made better agents were the people who ran complementary businesses, like a hair salon, where their customers were sitting around waiting to get their hair cut. They could flip through the catalogue order, things that they were looking for and it became a additional revenue stream for the business, and so do the m v. P. They were able to answer all sorts of questions very quickly, very cheaply. That helped them steer the next stage of their business in the far more effective erection. And so it’s it’s, you know, it’s experiments like these that that help us learn more quickly rather than focusing just on how do we roll out our program or our solution and the the the m v p. The minimum viable product? That’s that, that that’s at the at the root of all this. It’s it’s it’s smart because it’s you will avoid risk. You’re avoiding spending a lot of money and a lot of time on a solution that isn’t the best. Maybe based on assumptions that are invalid on dh, then is going is going to end up doing a disservice to the people you’re trying to serve to your employees, to your funders that flesh out more this and how non-profits could you apply the the minimum viable product to their work? Think, think through how to do that? Yeah, so that the way that you so the minimum viable product is really an experiment that test my hypothesis. So just step back a little bit when we think small. So when we have a solution and we know there’s some risks behind whether it will work or not, there’s some unknown. The first step is to identify that is unknown, so we contest that, and in the realm of social innovation, i think there’s three pillars of what makes a successful social innovation. And that is that it has to deliver value impacting growth. So value is something people want not only want, but we’ll demand will come back for will tell their friends about it. Fill a deeply felt need both by your beneficiary as well as by other stakeholders who need to buy-in is that people don’t want what you have. The offer. You’re going to be swimming upstream the whole time, the second once you have, you know, ascertain something people want. You have to ask, doesn’t have impact. Does this make a difference? Does it deliver the social benefit you’re looking for? In other words, does it work on guys? Too often we get far along and delivering something that people want, and that sounds good. To us but doesn’t necessarily deliver the social impact. And then the third pillar is growth, even if we’re delivery social impact from a few people, usually a scope of a problem, this huge there, maybe millions or hundreds of millions of people who have a particular need. And so how do we create an engine that will accelerate growth over time so that we can reach people enough people to really move the needle and sew? The m. V p is really the first step in what eric calls the build, measure learned feedback loop, which is essentially applying the scientific method to the risks that we identify. And each of these three categories that you identify a potential risk, for example, that people may not want to order from the catalog. You build an m p p, like copia did to test that assumption. Then you measure the results. You gathered data to see how many people ordered people engage, and then finally you learn. If you’re successful, then maybe it safe to double down. If you’re not successful like, for example, with copia, they’re there. They found out that the agents in the in these corner stores were not selling from the catalogue that they had to tweak their solution to to to look for other agents that might be more effective. And sometimes you find that, you know, you’re completely off base and you need to pivot and take a different direction altogether. And so it’s driving that bill measure learned feedback loop quickly as possible. That dr social innovation and, you know, we all do this in the bull court, of course, of time. Except that often the bill measure learned feedback loop. It can take years. By the time we deploy a program, you know, measure it, evaluate and learn from it. It can take years. And so what lean impact does is really asked. How do we move that learning cycle from an order of years to an order of days or weeks? All right, we gotta take another break when we come back and may and i, uh but also more stories about ah ah. Public school system, for instance, a cz. Great examples of this. This constant testing and learning iterating. And we’re talking about wagner sita is if you need help with your nine ninety, do you? I hope you hope you’re getting it out very soon. Are your books properly managed? Have you got the books? I do. Do you know how you’re doing financially? If you’ve got to see piela, maybe you’re thinking about a change in twenty nineteen. Talk to the wagner, the partner there. Eat huge tomb. You know him? He’s been a guest. You know him. Start out at wagner cps dot com and then pick up the phone. Talk to you. Check out regular cps dot com. Now time for tony’s take two training trains. I encourage you to invest in basic planned giving training for your fund-raising team, and i recognise your fund-raising team might be just you or you and the ceo that but get the basics of plan giving down. You want them to be you and your and your team. You want to be comfortable opening the door to conversations about a state plan. Gifts. That’s all that’s this’s not expertise. This is opening doors to conversations. You’re not talking about death like a lot of fundraisers. Think that complete misconception you’re talking about the long term value of your work and what what a long term gift is going to mean to keeping that work going beyond all of us. So that’s the that’s the essence of basic plan giving training. And in my video, i put a little holiday spin on training. So you check that out at tony martignetti dot com. Let’s go back to and mae chang and lean impact. Oh, and may you have this example of summat public schools. I felt like they were a good example of this iterating and was testing, learning and iterating. Yeah, one of the reasons that i think people struggled to look at how you can apply these tools in the social sector is that impact can take a long time to measure on dh, take a long time to fully realize and so you know. Example. Some of public schools is a great one because they work in education, where educational attainment is one of those things. Take a long time to fully realize that the founder of summat public schools, a woman named diane tavener, started out with this audacious goal that she wanted to start some schools that would serve a diverse student population, where one hundred percent of them would graduate from college. Now they brought in the best practices that they could find in education. Started up a couple charter schools, and eight years later, when they’re first cohort graduated from college, they they were highly successful. They beat out most of their peers and, you know, people were recognizing from this and encouraging her to just gail her solution. But but what diane recognised was that even though that they were doing well, they were doing better than any others. She believed they could do better, and she won’t had wanted to, you know, say she had set out with this goal of getting one hundred percent of students to graduate and they weren’t there yet. And so she she decided to invest instead and trying to figure out how to improve on the model. But she realized she didn’t want to wait another eight years for the next cohort to graduate. You know that that would be way too long in orderto see whether she was improving the models. Enough. So instead she decided to focus on building in a culture of of learning of it, aeration of innovation into their organization. And so what this looks like was they started out by running weeklong experiments for and did so over the course of fifty seven weeks, and each week they would bury the the structure of their classroom, the content of the classroom, the types of activities, whether it be, you know, kind of traditional lectures by teachers or south paste elearning on computers or small group project, or one on one tutoring. And they would look at all these different ways tools that they had and measure it each week by running student assessments, doing focus groups to see what the students are most engaged with interviewing teachers. And so each week they would gather this data marin what worked and didn’t work about what they had tried that week and that that’s what they’re doing and then try something slightly different the next. And so over the course of these this year, they essentially refined their model, a very transformative model for personalized learning and and, you know, have been highly successful. Their most recent cohort, ninety nine percent, got admitted to college. You know, they haven’t yet graduated from college. But now this model that they’ve developed has been adopted by over three hundred public schools around the country. So it shows that when you take a little bit more time up front to invest in improving what you’re doing to really maximizing the quality of what you’re able to deliver, then it’ll pay dividends over time. And and even in the case of education where you know, fully measuring educational attainment may take years and eventually get, they’ll get to looking at their graduation rates from college. There are often earlier indicators that can help you determine whether you’re on track or not and help you improve your solution along the way. And as you’re improving, you’re there’s a very good chance you’ll be. You may need to pivot at based on what you’re learning. I thought the the vision spring case in the book is a is a good example of multiple pivots. Can you talk about that one? Geever. Yeah. So a lot of times when we think about innovation, we think about the big, flashy new ideas and visions. Spring decided to focus on a seven hundred year old invention that has been proven teo. Increase productivity and improve learning potential and that i’d lost. And so, despite being seven hundred years old there’s an estimated two and a half billion people who need eyeglasses and don’t have them. Mental vision spring thought to bridge the gap you know we talked about earlier. They set out with an audacious goal that there’s two one a half billion people in need, and they started out of most non-profits would by looking, piloting in two locations in their case, elsalvador. In india, they recruited people they called vision entrepreneurs to go out to rule areas, division exams and provide eyeglasses and came back with really moving stories of people who weren’t able to work in a work again. Kids who weren’t able tto learn being latto learn more effectively, and many non-profits would be thrilled by that. You know, we’re making a big difference, but it wasn’t enough for vision spring. They recognized they were losing money with each person they reached, and they would never be able to scale to the degree that they needed teo achieve their goal. So they pivoted. Their second incarnation is that they set a vision centres in more urban areas that was serving more affluent population and took the profits from that too. Cross subsidize outreached into more rural areas. Through this mechanism, they were able to become financially self sustainable, also something that most non-profits would think. This is a huge success, not only doing good, we’re doing it in a financially self sustainable way. Prevision spring thought again it wasn’t enough because it would take them decades to be able to scale their infrastructure. To get to all the people around the world who could benefit, they pivoted again. They partnered with of organization in bangladesh called brac, who it which has community health care workers in every corner of the country and used their existing network to provide vision care. And through their partnership with brak, they’ve reached over a million people. Today on dh through other partnerships have not reached over four and a half million people. Well, that’s a pretty impressive number for a non-profits before and a half million people. But it still wasn’t enough provisions. Springbox kuze four and a half million is only a tiny fraction of two and a half billion, and they recognised that the problem here was really a systems problem that anyone organization could never reach. All of these people that we needed to figure out how to make marketsmart and how to make governments work better. And so they decided, instead of a public private partnership called the alliance that brought together eyeglass manufacturers, non-profits and local government to look at how they could work together to change the system. Tio encourage eyeglass manufacturers to manufacturer lower costs eyeglasses and distribute them to more remote areas, and to encourage governments to provide i care to their citizens. And one of their early successes was with the government of liberia. They find a mou where the government liberia agreed to work with, um, to provide vision care, do their national health care network as well as the public school system. Until you can imagine now, as they’re approaching this this problem from a more systems approach and working with making governments and businesses work for for people to provide vision, care to everyone that they can eventually get to this. This really audacious school they set out to, but it required them to be humble enough again, to your point, to put their ego aside to recognize when their solution wasn’t good enough and to be willing to pivot. Okay, i like that examples. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, wait taking a break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s then think about this. What companies can you ask that would consider switching their credit card processing to tell us? Maybe it’s one owned by a boardmember. Maybe it’s one that’s already been supporting. You talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you get that long stream of passive revenue every single month. It’s it’s basically dahna unearned, but you’ve earned it. It’s that long stream, passive revenue that’s that’s the goal. And that’s what you can get through. Tello’s you’ll find this video and the intro at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us now, back to and mae chang. Um and may the the tech industry has taken off well, not just recently, but has been able to grow so zoho so rapidly what you call the hockey stick growth growth curve. And a lot of that is explained by moore’s law. Ah, that dahna, eh? You know what? I think i know what it is, but you’re the computer scientists. You tell us just briefly what moore’s law is yes, the moore’s law was something that was defined by more. Who is that intel, i think almost fifty years ago now that said the number of transistors essentially, that the speed of computer chips would double every two years. I mean, tell true for almost fifty years now, and because of this, it’s driven this exponential growth in the computing industry, where computer that used to take up the whole building now fits in your pocket, and you can imagine all the things that that’s enabled us to do. And so, you know, it’s the underlying driver, a lot of the progress we see in the tech industry. So my question to you is, what is maize law going to be? There’s got to be. We have that. We need a maze law for the for the social change sector. Well, i think that, you know, moore’s law certainly has given the speed of computers, the advancement in the speed of computers. But what’s behind it in terms of like how how does that actually happen? You don’t just sit back and have more law takes place. Part of how that happened is because silicon valley is so competitive because there are are so many opportunities that people have really refined away to accelerate progress and accelerate innovation. And that’s what i think the lean startup captured so well. And it really is about having those audacious goals. You know, like how do you know? Doubling every two years is is a really fast pace of progress, and that requires organisations to take risks, to try different techniques, to try different approaches and figure out howto learn as quickly as possible. And that’s you know, where some of these innovation techniques i’ve really been home. But i do think that these techniques are just as important and justice needed for the social sector because we’re talking about solving, you know, real challenges, that where people are suffering, where there’s real needs. And so we need it more than ever. And i truly believe that the same techniques are equally ethical in the social sector. I’ve seen organizations, the success, sloan applying them and be able to dramatically magnify their impact. Andi so you know, i think there is a real translation there, but again, it’s not easy. It’s much harder in the social sector, and so you know, the lean impact book is really my attempt at looking at how do we adapt these tools for the realities of social good? Okay, i hope you believe in all this because that’s what the book is about. So you say you said you believe these tools apply. I hope you do. All right, but i’m challenging you. I want to see a maze law and maze low if you want. But i like the, you know, like the liberation of going from morris to maze, so yeah, i mean, are you, um i’m concerned, are you? I’m concerned. I guess i’m not really asking. I’m telling you. What about my concern? I’m i’m concerned about what i call legacy non-profits. Maybe i don’t catch if you use that in the book, but you know, the ones that are so big and bureaucratic that taking on new thinking like this and vast culture change just doesn’t seem likely. I mean, they just seem like dinosaurs that don’t know what their future is. Don’t know how bleak their future is. I don’t know. Are you more optimistic? And i am about those those types of legacy institutions. I am. I mean, maybe it’s in part because in my last job at uc, i’d e i worked at one of those dinosaur institutions, you know, on the underside here. But we also worked with a lot of large established non-profits that have been around for ages. You know, the yusa ideas, the us government’s foreign aid agency were one of the largest donors in the world. And we’re government. So you know, we are, ah, large, entrenched bureaucratic organization, andi. Even that yusa idea, we know with the vision of russia whose administrator, when i joined you, say i’d haye set up something called the global development lab that was recognizing that, you know, the world is changing, and we need to change with it if we want to stay relevant. So the lab was set up with this duel part mission teo identify innovations that could dramatically move the needle on our aim to fight global poverty as well as to look at how we could transform the development, the tools in our approach to development self to accelerate both our own work and those of our partners. And so so i saw through that how we could in a large established bureaucratic organization start planting the seeds of a new culture. It’s not easy. In our case, it was a separate team that kind of started out that was protected by the leaders shippen. But that ultimately, overtime made inroads across the whole agency by finding other people who really know saw the need, you know, felt felt, felt compelled to find better tools on dh were interesting partnering with us. And i thought, i’ve seen this happen at lots of large non-profits as well, that they know that they recognize that, you know, people work at non-profits, who they care about the mission. And even though some parts of organizations maybe entrench, there’s always some people there who, you know are restless and want to find better solutions and are just looking for the tools and opportunity to use. Um, yeah. All right, well, that was exactly we capitalize on that restlessness because, you know, doing well isn’t as good, is doing the best. And that’s what you know that’s that’s your that’s your that’s running through the book. That’s your thesis. You know, we wantto do it. Maximum scale, you know, as you say, greatest social benefit. Largest possible scale. Um, i so let’s let’s move over, too. Making this thiss transformation. You know what you call ah ri? Architecture of organizations? Ah, you say that, you know, we’re relying on nineteenth century institutions using twentieth century tools to address twenty first century problems. And we need to. The third part of your book is about the re architecture of not only the institutions that are doing the work, but also the funding institutions on the funding and their funding models. What did you you lead us into this one, i would you like to start this conversation about making this transformation? Yeah. So one of the biggest challenges that i heared over and over again across the over two hundred organizations i interviewed was funding that funding becomes an incredible impediment on one. The biggest issues of funding is that funding tend to be highly if under most thunders, wants to see you deliver very concrete short term delivery bubbles, that’s and that’s what how they measure you by and in your proposal, they expect you to layout in excruciating detail exactly how you’re going to do that, how you’re going to spend every penny, every person you’re goingto hyre and, you know, put together essentially what i call a grand master plan and then execute on that planet, sometimes over as many as five years. And those plans are quite rigid, and it prevents us from experimenting. Prevents us from taking risks. Potential prevents us from pivoting and taking different paths. When the status types of stories i heard over and over again, we’re from organizations who would get a grant from a foundation, start executing on that grant. Realized that it wasn’t working, but then continue doing it anyway. And of course, no one wants to go on the record about this buy-in tell you there’s lots of organizations that do this, but it’s just too hard to go back to your funder and say, this isn’t working. You’re worried you’re gonna lose the grants all together, then andi. So finding a different way, thiss kind of the existing relationship is one that seems like micro management to me, and we all know that people don’t do their best work when they’re micromanaged. So i think the first thing we need to do is we architect, the relationship between funders and non-profits that we need to have a relationship that’s a little bit more based on trust that allows for more risk that allows for more agility. And there’s a number of tools that we’ve tried to do this. The global development labbate use a. I. D. One of those is to tear funding. We have a mechanism called development innovation ventures that was modeled after venture capital where, rather than giving out the big, monolithic grants that yusa typically does, we would give out much smaller grant that we could take much more risk with and allow people to experiment. If they could show us that they had an idea where they thought they could develop a far more cost effective solution. What was that? So we give out these grants that were, like, typically about one hundred thousand dollars for them to try these things out. And if they were successful, they were able to get data back that showed that this thing had traction than we give them a larger grant of million dollars and then five million dollars. And so, just like in the startup world, where venture capitalist come in and they give you small amounts of money to test out your ideas and more money as you get more traction by funding this way in the non-profit space, we can allow people to take a lot more risks. We can allow funders to try a lot more different potential solutions, but without putting too much at stake. You know, because you know what you want to do. If you’re going to innovate, you need to fail. But what you want to do is fail small, not fail. Yes. All right, well, we got to take a break. And when we come back and may and i were going toe, continue this about making the change and talk some about within your own organisation. Now incentivizing and and hiring text to give. They have a five part email, many course which is debunking five myths. Do you think that all text donations or small the captain like five or ten or fifteen dollars? Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there doesn’t need to be. There’s a good amount of misinformation around text e-giving, and you can break through that with this five party male. Many course end up raising more money. You get the email men? Of course. You text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. And now we’ve got several more minutes for lean impact. So in may, um, anything just is there one more thing you wantto share with with us about lessons that you say i d before we turn it to the non-profits doing the work and some of the incentivizing there one more thing. You can you want to share with us a ride? Um, you know, i think we were just talking about tiered funding and other mechanism that can be really effective is paying for outcomes. You know, looking at how do we incentivize outcomes rather than center vise activities? Because outcomes is ultimately what matters. You know, eric and his book talks about something called vanity medicines that are these absolute numbers that we all used to say we’ve reached or touched or helped, you know, a million people on dh, you know, this is plastered all over mt profit and foundation web sites in terms of trying to give people some sense of what they’ve done. But those numbers are meaningless because it just says, like, we’ve done stuff, we’re good at raising money. It doesn’t say whether we made a big difference in those people’s lives. And it doesn’t say whether another organization with the same resource is could have done even more on. So you know what eric encourages us to do. It would mean impact talks about is moving away from these vanity metrics to actionable or innovation metrics that are at the unit level that look at what is our conversion rate. Are unit costs our success rate because when we can optimize for those types of those unit level metric. Those are the things that are going to make a big difference over time. All right, and this. So this creates thoughts, foreign fodder for conversation with you’re funders, potential funders. And also, of course, for foundations themselves to, you know, to try to rethink. I mean, maybe, you know, experiment yourselves for our foundation listeners with with an organization or two in some of these, some of these very different with with some of these different funding methods obviously more detail in the book, you gotta get the book. Let’s turn to the to the five a onesie three’s themselves. You talk a good bit about incentivizing around this around lean impact and the adoration and the testing and learning talk some about incentivizing. Sure, what i see is because innovation is hard in the social factor. I do see a lot of non-profits these days talking about innovation and wanting to innovate. And usually what ends up happening is that innovation is something that gets bolted on rather than built in on by bolted on. I mean, you know, organizations tend to, you know, either run a contest or a hackathon or a pilot, or they could, you know, hyre like an innovation person or a small innovation team, and these things are usually off to the side. They’re not part of the core operations of a non-profit, but something that they can kind of highlight in issue. Nice press releases about, but go on business as usual with ninety nine percent of what they’re doing. And so if if you really want teo, so what? The result is that we see all these kind of pilots and all these contests and flashy ideas, but very few of them making an appreciable difference over tonic. So if what we care about is getting to impact and transforming the culture and building a culture of innovation, we need to do that from the ground up. And i think that starts by establishing, you know, those ungracious goal something, you know, that we is measurable, that we continue to reference back to that we, you know, kind of reinforce, that is that is the north star for everyone in the organization to measure their own work against, you know, like vision spring to be. It asks the question. Is this going to get us to two and a half billion people. And so you need to start out with that goal because again, if you have a goal that is achievable with business as usual, there’s no reason for anyone to do anything different on then. Secondly, way need to create incentives that reinforced kruckel. Both reinforce the importance of taking risks and celebrate failure as well as reinforce progress towards that call, you know, on those innovation metrics. So if you’re able to reduce your costs, increase your success rate and so forth those air the metrics that really matter and get it into the goal on dso. Finding mechanisms that incentivize and incentives could be, you know, financial incentive. So they don’t have to be. They could be just you know what this leadership highlight when you have you know organization, you know, all all hands meeting. What? What do you highlight in your press releases? What are the you know who gets recognized? What are the things that you talk about in your weekly updates? So those incentives are incredibly important because they are what culture forms around. And then finally, once you have those goals and those incentives and you can look at where do you need to fill the gaps? In terms of talent? Do you need to bring in some other people who bring in a different skill set than you make might have the need to train your existing staff? Two. In some of these innovation techniques, that’s that’s sort of the last step into often. People make that the first and only step and don’t get a lot attraction. We gotta leave it there. Another book, another book you need. There’s so much more there you can follow and may she’s at and may its n n m e. I m not talking about ellie may from the beverly hillbillies and may so it’s not a y. It’s m e i on you find her book at and may dot com and may thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Pleasure next week. Consultant sarah olivieri with admonition, but also, of course, encouragement for small and midsize non-profits. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled twenty dahna slash pursuant we’re by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine right. Our creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer, but today it’s by chris shows, social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy and this music is by scots diner, brooklyn, new york do with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Buy-in. 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Nonprofit Radio for November 30, 2018: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
That’s the new book by Edgar Villanueva. His thesis: The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. Let’s talk to him and find out what he’s thinking.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into hypo gargle aziz asia if you tickle to me with the idea that you missed today’s show and there’s a footnote. Number one on hyper gargle ist asia d colonizing wealth. That’s the new book by edgar villanueva. His thesis. The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy. We’ll talk to him and find out what he’s thinking. Tony steak too. No video responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine it’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio edgar villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the andress family fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at grand valley state university and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot foundation for public education. He’s held leadership roles that kate be reynolds charitable trust in north carolina and marguerite kissy foundation in seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north carolina. You’ll find him at d colonizing wealth dot com and at villanueva edgar and welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october, october sixteenth. Yes, all right. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times. Yes. Congratulations on that prep prep prep you for non-profit radio. Right? Right. I’m ready. All your all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So that’s all culminated here. I promised listeners. Footnote one footnote one. Teo. Hyper guard. Alice the asia, of course, anybody listens to show knows that i opened with something funny like that, a disease, every single show. But in edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle ist asia. So this is the first time over four hundred shows that thea, that the guest unknowingly has provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You don’t know what we do that every single show? Um no, you don’t know that. I didn’t know that i’m not listening to non-profit video. It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. D colonizing wealth. You’re you’re you’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah, you’re raising some eyebrows. No one told me yesterday that i was the colin kaepernick of philanthropy, which i was like, i haven’t thought about it that way, but that’s not all so bad getting closer to the mike so people can hear you, you know, just get not almost intimate with it. Um, i used to call myself the charlie rose of charities until he blew that gig for me and how he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer because you talk about colonizer virus and exploitation and division like these are bad things. Yes, they are bad. Okay. What? Ah, what is the what? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to d colonized so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? You know, i have this firewall that were completely disconnected from wall street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes in systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate america. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways. Not in the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people. Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated, you know, especially i’m from the south, north carolina. We’ll talk about that. They’re absolutely was. A legacy of slavery is stolen lands that helped contribute to the mass of wealth. And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans. Yeah, so, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exist in our communities, you know, because colonization, as we often think about it, as something that happened five years ago in north carolina, especially where i’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparentsgeneration, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices. But we are areas, a resilient people. And those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to solve today as a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table. You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe north carolina. That’s right. Robertson county, north carolina, which which is not too far from where i own. I owned a home in pinehurst, which is a little north and west, i think of of robertson county lumber. So the lumbee tribe, i assume the lumber river is named for the lundy’s and lumberton the town that’s right name for lundy’s right so lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river fr african first yeah the river came first and so certainly the river came from i think the name of the river came right river’s been there much longer okay yes so we’re you know hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north carolina that i came together to form the lumpy try and named ourselves after that river um and we’re going to comeback teo native americans as the original philanthropists but that that struck me a lot i think you you say you say that the end of the at the end of books right where i caught it i’m whichever like a minute a half or so before the break so just we’re introducing this we got playing time together wealth you say divides us controls us, exploits us. What’s that about? So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, i say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has calls tarm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed, thie acts that can result as as a result of that, to exploit the land and to exploit people are or what? That’s what has calls the harmon itself. So the case that i’m going to make in this but that i’m making in this book, is that wealth money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that could actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven sixteenth steps to that second half your book. All right, we’ll take our first break pursuant. They’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit. It’s free as all the pursuant resources are you’re accustomed to this? You know this. You will find it on the listener landing page, which is where it’s always been. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please. Now back to don gani monisha. That is your indian name. Did i by any chance say that correctly? I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my ojibwe these days. You don’t know your tea boy. That sounds, but that is your indian name. Ah, leading bird. Tell the story of how you got that name. We’ll come backto. Don’t. We’ll come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t you think this is a good story? How you got that name? So my tribe, the lumbee tribal north carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming. You are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? Your mom’s right. So but when i when i was working in north carolina and native communities, i went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in north carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in raleigh, north carolina, and so, but i was very curious to meet with this medicine. Man and tio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, if you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give us a spiritual name or a native name on dh. So i met with this guy in the marriott hotel in denver, colorado, where this this native health conference. So it was all ah, tell the story in the book is quite hilarious and in many ways let the end of our session where i was feeling excited about you know the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because i, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native name. Naghani benesch a which means leading bird s o. I was very honored, and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right, am i a little tweety bird or a my mighty eagle? Silicon, right? Birds are vest. So he explained to me that i was the type of bird that flies in a v formation on daz i when i left, i studied of these birds, and they’re the leading bird. I’m deleting glamarys leading burghdoff. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the v formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands. It’s co dependents and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a v formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when i when i learned these characteristics, i just felt really i was really, really happy and content about this name because i do see that’s the type of leadership that i model in my everyday life. And i think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector. You explain how the birds communicate, which i’ve always wondered. They’re they’re just close enough that they can feel the vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re going toe bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they and i guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they going to injured, right? Yes, sir, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, you know, gps built into their bodies. And the other thing i recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, i want to learn research that a little bit more, but i think when they’re when someone is down, are you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen they there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our inter related, you know, being inter related exactly our interdependence. Now, this is a this is an indigenous, the belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how? Explain this, this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other. Yeah, so there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, you know, we are we are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset or world view from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things, all of the decisions and that we’re making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that i am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far ford about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work and you encourage us two each that that each one of us takes responsibility for a cz you said were thriving and suffering together. What i’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that, yes. So you know, i think how are we all responsible? We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks, when we you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes, like the natural path of progress. Absolutely way. It’s learned right. We have holidays, you know, for for christopher columbus, for example. And so. But the realities are that colonization was something that was terrible, that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we, as as the people, have not come to terms with. We actually we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so i think we’re still dealing with the consequences on dso. The dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, i refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies as as a nation, they show up in our policies. Our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power the least naturally to your point about latto them organizations. Absolutely. So. You know, i think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, you know, the dynamics of colonization, because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth when you look at asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety in that vulnerable communities on. And when you look at who gets to allocate managing spend id, you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundation said on eight hundred billion dollars of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the irs. Teo payout five percent of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on ly. A small percentage is actually leaving the doors. There would be an invested in community. Let’s assume it’s i know there are a lot of foundations that use that five percent minimum as their maximum, so that zoho five percent of that would be forty billion dollars. So the counter is sabat. There’s forty billion dollars coming each year could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative, and you know, we’re trying to preserve this thiss foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know if we if we spent in the next two years the eight hundred billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future. Just future. Years and other generations were tryingto way want to be around for in perpetuity? The foundations would say, right, right. And you know, i think i think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that five percent when congress had acted that five percent rule, it actually began at six percent, i believe in nineteen seventy four and then in nineteen seventy six was lower to five percent. The reason that congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are our wealthy the wealthy one percent, or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break? And so that that irs minimum pay all of five percent? That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants and so you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with the ninety five percent that is not leaving the doors. If the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that ninety five percent is then being invested to generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extract extractive industries that our counter intuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point often that often, right, those investments are in our industries that are hurting the vory populations that foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission and in fact, funding the something else that was asked about thea the way the money is. All right, well, we’ll come back to it if i think of it. there’s there’s a lot that organisations khun gained by hiring people of color indigenous people what on dh very few your rare exception working in found eight doing foundation what what’s the what make explicit that those uh those advantages sure so you’re right i’m absolutely on exception i think when i started in philanthropy i was one of ten native americans that i could find we kind of found each other in what year was that this was in two thousand five that’s along and we are now there’s about twenty five of us now the last time i counted so yeah there’s there’s you know an amazing opportunity for foundations and i think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in to two foundations that have lived experience and not only foundations but non-profits now the ngos doing the ground work absolutely foundations of the funders on dove course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork we’re seeing that emerging but for the non-profits doing the day to day work a cz well represent the communities that you’re absolutely kind of makes sense right and felt you know it’s funny because some foundations actually require That of non-profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non-profit or foundation to have folks that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, you know, about the problem in a different way is going to create some proximity that i think is going to just inform strategies that make sense. And i can’t tell you the number of times i’ve been in strategic planning processes, on board meetings, where decisions were being made and always carry my mother my family with me, you know, in spirit into the room. And i hear these decisions are these conversations and i’m thinking like, oh, my god! Like, you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother more or my family. That’s still living. Brovey decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah, yeah. Dahna and, ah, i i thought of what i was going to ask you about or just comment on the foundation wise. We do see some foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Hyre i wouldn’t say it’s needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. You know, um, was paul allen, was it? Ah, not pull out the microsoft, i think. The microsoft founder co founder who recently died. I think his foundation was paul allen. Okay, i was thinking steve allen to come, but will come. That’s why i thought no, it wasn’t him, but was paul allen? I think his foundations one, but there are some. So we do here, some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle. Yeah, i think i mean, i think deciding to spend down is ah, is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now, if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more there. There’s a lot of amazing work happening right now. That is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color, which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know the the five percent that is being invested, only seven to eight percent of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so i think, you know, i think it’s a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about. What is the value of, you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity like what is? Is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels i can see that as being a very selfish type of, you know, ah, way of thinking. If this was cnn right now, i would play a video of you. But i don’t i don’t have that. But in your in your times get to work on that talking alternative. We need we need video capture and screens and everything in your video. In your interview with david bernstein new york times, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities. Tto learn about solutions. Yeah, you know, i think that i think of, you know, people of color. Indigenous folks is being the canaries in the coal mine. Sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail, we hurt the hardest. And but there’s just something so magical about sense of private i have about my community because we’re so resilient, like regardless of, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the, you know, genocide, stolen land. We still remain intact as the people on dh. So there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that i would if i weren’t native. I will be interested to know. Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom and you know, often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, rc strategies, or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and i’m like, well, we’ve been doing that aren’t in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster. Is there still a lumbee community in robson robson county? Yes, there are. There are about sixty thousand enrolled members in the lumpy tribe. The bulk of our community is still in robinson county. Okay, now i have a north carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in-kind being remember. You know, we were very inclusive. We we we’ll take it. We’ll adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. Shin ta. Officially enrolled. That’s a stretch for an italian american with just north carolina. License plate on driver’s licence. All right. You you talk about, you know, i guess, i mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it, and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out, you know, piecemeal. The the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the even the word. You know, the granting, right? It’s like some i was like, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s it’s it’s a it’s a right, equally held by all. Yeah, you know, i think power in money. A lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from linds of equality. So we’re going to have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity is going to actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know that sze, highly unlikely, like infant is really small. Unlikely? You know, it is a hard thing for people, teo to think about it. Especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, i i have less than i’ve had, so but, you know, wi i i wantto think about this abundance, my frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to tow work together too. You make sure that we are privileging there’s who have not been privileged by that. So i love that you you approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break when you see piela. If you need help with your nine ninety, perhaps, or your books properly managed have you got your books? Are you thinking about a c p a change? Maybe in twenty nineteen, talk to the wagner partner. You know him? Yeah. Huge tomb. He’s been a guest. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust you. He’ll be honest about whether wagner cpas is going to be able to help you. Accounting wise place to get started. Weinger cpas dot com now for tony’s, take two. I didn’t do a video this week. I was so relaxed over the thanksgiving holiday, including the weekend, the four days. I just didn’t think of it. I mean, i’ve been doing weekly videos for i’m sure much longer than you’re interested in watching. It’s been years. I just do a weekly or, you know, maybe every other week. And i was so relaxed over the over the four days that a cz i’ve encouraged you to be, you know, take time for yourself while i was following her own advice. I just didn’t even think to do a video that week for this for this week. So i hope that you took time made time. You know, you have your not going to find this time. You have to make it. I hope you made time for yourself and you are as relaxed as i was. And you forgot to do something that you should have done, aunt. Hope you’d get in trouble for it. I’m not in trouble. It’s time for the live listener love. Ah, and where’s it going? Let’s let’s go abroad. Were in sao paulo, brazil, were in moscow. We’re in seoul. Ah, and we’re disconnected. You know that’s not fair. That’s not very nice. So cool. Live listener loved to brazil, russia and tio seoul, south korea, on your haserot. Um oh, i knew i knew brazil was brazil. I don’t have my cici. I’ll just have to say, listen, love to you. Love goes out and bringing in abroad. I mean domestic. Back into the states. Tampa, florida, new york, new york, seattle, nottingham, maryland. Cool nottingham. That’s a new one. Welcome, seattle. Welcome, schenectady. Of course. Sorry about that before, but pepsi upstate new york who lets a new yorkers checking in. And boston, massachusetts and wilmington, north carolina. All right. North carolina special live love teo, shout out to north carolina. Um, and the podcast pleasantries. The vast majority of our over thirteen thousand listeners each week. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. I don’t know. You might listen. A couple days later, you might listen. A month later, you might binge. Listen to all your podcast. A month later. Whenever you’re checking us out. Thank you for putting us in your podcast schedule. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Now i want to go back to ed gar villanueva. Edgar villanueva. See, i thought he would pronounce his name edgar and i was wrong. And but that’s that’s what i said, edgar. But it’s edgar weinger villanueva and de colonizing wealth. Welcome back, you two. Go for thanks for having me. Okay. Just will be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. It hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s let’s start getting ah, positive. Okay. You know, the second roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. And i thought you came up, like, five short. I mean that we have another twelve status. I mean, if you want to, if you wantto share power, you’re gonna have to have you got to step it up with twelve steps or or even fifteen. You know, you have more than the colonizer, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical. Yeah. You know, it’s funny because i did have some resistance, teo having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s ah, there’s a quick and easy fix. If i just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on. Was a prime number. Got that event, right? Trying that’s that’s i don’t know why. Yeah, so what? You know, but i did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me. Where are you? Lets them out for us. Just list all seven. And then we’ll talk about, um sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while in this? Ah, i just did. I admire the admire the thinking that goes into this. Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that i’m working in and the disconnection that i felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community, teo just re ground myself in my values and on in-kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and into my community that i could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in non-profits and in philanthropy who were i think of very for thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this on dh then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restored of justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used to schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong, to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ahh model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with with the offender, with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong. To get to a place of truth and reconciliation. I saw ah, grieving. Ah, you say everybody. I mean because of our interrelated nous, where we all need to grieve, including the people of color indigenous, you know those who have been oppressed? Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened? What the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of describe mint too that the harmon, the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people. And, you know, i think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that, ah, that colonization and the idea why supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this side idea of being american. And i think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see, these commercials for these dna tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from, and they feel connected to that in some way. Um, and the the thing you talk about two is the orphans, orphans. You say that those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans. How’s that you called them orphans? This is a term moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is. It’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from giving up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe tio, this individualistic way of being in america. And so, with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country for lots of white folks in a loss of identity. Because although you know i’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world, very proud tbe a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, you know, and and and not that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparent’s or from or the language they spoke of the culture they have. Um and i feel that that’s a loss for many white come unity’s that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. If we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a riel. Not really. All right, well, why why do you say that? Well, i mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really well. Well, the idea that that, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was a kn ideology that was created in order, teo, be able to i have the types of oppressive movements and systems of policies they have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mind set that has been, you know, an idea that is not really. But we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, i was tall. That, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if i were to behave or dressed or act in a certain way, that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea why supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief. All right, um and your you also encourage non-profits and teams tohave a grieving space. But we’re talking about we’re talking about grief. We have about a minute before break, but then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in a in an office? Yes. So you know, these. These steps are personal, but it can be applied an organizational setting. And so i think, especially those of us working in the non-profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave. Ah, space space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, i share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities, the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book, you know, because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But d colonizing wealth dot com. That’s where you go. So i gotta take this break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna em a slash tony tello’s. Then think to yourself, what companies can you ask to switch credit card processing to tello’s? Is it a company? Ohm maybe buy a boardmember family member, accompany already supporting you. Talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay. Tony, that m a slash tony tello’s now back to ed gar edgar villanueva, c i practice saying edgard because i just assumed aunt, i thought no, i’m sure he uses that guard. Just like editor allan poe. Yeah, no, i know. I understand. That’s the it’s your name. You’re telling princessa anywhere, and i i assumed we know what makes you. You know what happens when you make a soon make an ass of u and me, so okay, uh, edgar, um, i like the idea of the grieving space. You know? Acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds a hundred percent nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how. How oppressive is that? Very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of, like, how this wealth was amassed, our secrets that are within these families that you know many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as she said. And and that was the next step in terms of you’re next time apologizing recognized, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the reynolds kate be is it kate? But can’t be reynolds foundation? Mean reynolds tobacco, north carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves? Hyre. I’m not gonna ask you if the kp reynolds foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the steppe. Apologizing? Absolutely. No, there was. There was no acknowledgment of that and chapter one of the book is called my arrival on the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of r. J. Reynolds. And so, really, literally and metaphorically i was i was working there, but no, there was there’s there’s no acknowledgment of that and i think you see that you know in north carolina recently the chancellor of you of the university of north carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners what most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition yeah acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t johns hopkins university to do something similar that that they had their founders were ah johns hopkins their founders were slave owners i think georgetown university georgetown sorry thank you okay georgetown they were pretty right there were priests priest founders that were slave owners that’s right actually no ah friend of mine who lives in new orleans is ah black woman who is a descendant on and was called to georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together talking about the history talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And you know, this has been very healing, i think, for the university and but also front for my friend karen, who is now having that you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors you talked a good bit about the reconciliation process in south africa. Canada. You got to get the book way. Can’t can’t tell all these stories. I mean, i know what listeners i know. I know you love stories as much as i do, but there’s not enough time to just get the damn book. Just goto de colonizing both dot com for pete’s sake, you go right now. If you’re listening live, where are yu? But pepsi? Schenectady, nottingham, maryland. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Okay, listening. You talk about and empathic and generative listening, right? So you know often when we when we moved to a process like this we feel bad. We’ve apologized the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, i’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so but before you before an act, you just need to paul’s toe. Actually. Listen toe, listen and learn. So teo, for for non-profits, you know, i ran a non-profit. I’ve worked inflame three for fourteen years. When i asked non-profits, what is the number? One thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always i just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda and the non-profits. They’re going to be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just it’s just going to make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be hard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is teo to stop a times toe also listen, until the others be hard. Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors and and i don’t know, you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s that’s the beginning of a relationship is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing two. Whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees there, there’s a lot to be learned. So she goes back to the value of bringing representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Okay, so relation you want us to ah, you want to relate? Let me ask you, you you you read how to win friends and influence people you say dozens of times doesn’t have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. What do you take away time after reading? Ah, dale carnegie’s book dozens of times. Well, you know, i still have an original copy from that i i stole from the library of ah. My mom was a domestic worker, and she was carrying for frill elder elderly man. They had a vast library, so i did it with this little book that you stole from an infirm. I didn’t. Natalie and i feel terrible about a book haunts me to this day. So this is a public didn’t even think to leave, like, twenty bucks or something on the table and have it if i had it at that. All right? Eh? So hopefully this is my my way of giving back is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the one takeaway for me in that book is, ah, what is really kind of connected to relating and listening is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. And if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend, like, well, edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if i didn’t say it and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are. You know, we i think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of filling heard and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just going really take you much further and building a relationship and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking you have you have an example of no, a, ah ah like building design like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices. Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas, like the colonizing virus, infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edge and absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices and you know the way they appear. Khun b. Super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources. You take a break when we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational. Designed to sort of just office designed our last break hoexter give the five part email many course debunking five myths. It’s five parts. Five myths. Think about all you think that all text donations are small and captain ten or fifteen dollars? No, sir. Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there’s lots of misinformation and hoexter give has a smarter, easier way to do text giving you raise more money. Get the email many course. Text. Npr to four four, four nine nine nine. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both. Dotcom. Get the thing. Get the book. In terms of designing organizations more egalitarian, you’d like to see absolutely so one of the steps that book is represent and what you look at the demographics of the non profit sector and especially in foundations that hard this sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power organizations. So what are the one of the ideas that i put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least fifty one percent or at least fifty percent of their board to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many non-profits funders actually are, you know, requiring this of their non-profit that their funding on dh many cover organizations that received government funding federal funding have thes types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of theirs. Non-profits again be representative? Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a that’s a stretch. Fifty one percent is the stretch. It’s a stretch. But you know, the conversation has has been xero about it. So i figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road. And there are some examples use, like the novo foundation in the book. They have a women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse something turning tow, this building and and decisions being made by women who are going to be using the building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation i really appreciate. Jennifer peter buffet, the founders of does novo foundation, wrote the foreword to my book, and they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work on dit shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens teo folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be. Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? They guaranteed you cite this in the book. No matter how much trouble you’re having in year one, two, three, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment, right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding you know folks can be. You can focus on building a relationship versus so i’ve got some meat, these certain objective. So i can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am i going to do? You know how i’m going to pay the salaries next year? Really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities and planning on dh khun plans that are being one only one or two years s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing investing. So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for for for the public good. Right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity. That that is really moving the needle issues. If we’re supporting with the five percent are right hand. Really good work. You know, mission related work. But in our left hand, we are investing. Ninety five percent of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive there, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so you know, they’re great foundations like the nathan cummings foundation, for example, who just recently declared that one hundred percent of their assets their entire corpus is going to be used on and support their mission. Yeah, on again, other examples in the book, and we have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, actually. So talk about your final step, which is the final step is repair all of us who are philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non-profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country? And so i think about looking your personal portfolio? Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values. Okay, so i’ll give you last thirty seconds in the way that the way i learned that natives are the original philanthropist was by what? You what, you talk about your mom? Yes. So, you know, i think a lot of giving what we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or folks, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so i do talk about my mom in the book, who was, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and and how to random ministry out of our church to support children? Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry just gotta you gotta get the book. You gotta read about it in history. And so is that giving of time, treasure and talent, not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists. Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com edgar villanueva. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on tony. Real pleasure next week. It may be the new book lean impact. I’m working on it for you. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p matter-ness deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tourney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers claire meyerhoff. Today, rob is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music that i’m hoping is going to come on very soon is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternative network, you duitz to get you thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show beyond potential live life. Your way on talk radio dot n y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Do you like comic books and movie howbout tv and pop culture? Then you’ve come to the right place. Hi, i’m michael dull treyz host of secrets of the sire, joined every week by my co host, hassan, lord of the radio godwin. Together we have over fifteen years experience creating graphic novels, screenplays and more. Join us as we bring you the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. Wednesday nights eight p. M. Eastern talk radio dot in lives. Did you know you’ve been playing poker your whole life, even if you’ve never played a hand of cards? Hi, i’m ellen lake and author of polka woman and host of the new show poker divas. On the show, i talk about poker. Strategy helps you win in business, life and love tune in live every thursday one p. M. To two p. M. Eastern standard time on talk radio dot n. Y. C. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, sam liebowitz, your conscious consultant. And on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on thursdays at twelve noon eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio dot you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz.

Nonprofit Radio for November 16, 2018: Asking Styles

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My Guest:

Brian Saber: Asking Styles
In fundraising solicitations, one size does not fit all. There are different styles and personalities. Brian Saber sorts them out to make you a comfortable, confident and effective fundraiser, based on what you bring to the process. He’s the author of the book, “Asking Styles.”

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, feels so good to be back in the studio after six seven weeks away and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure buba analgesia if you paint me with the idea that you missed today’s show asking styles in fund-raising solicitations, one size does not fit all. There were different styles and personalities. Brian sabers sorts them out to make you a comfortable, confident and effective fundraiser based on what you bring to the process. He’s the author of the book asking styles i’m tony. Take to my farewell. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant by wagner. Sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine what a pleasure to welcome brian sabre to the studio he has personally solicited thousands of donors as a director of development executive director and consultant over thirty years. Working with non-profits, he needs training programs and speaks nationally about asking styles to help people understand and embrace their unique strengths. As fundraisers. You’ll find him at asking matters dot com and he’s at brian saber. He’s a kindred spirit. We’re going to find out what that’s all about. His book is asking styles revolutionize your fund-raising. And i’m so glad to welcome him. Brian. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you, tony, for having onto the studio my pleasure. A little closer to the mike, the internet. Intimate with that thing. Okay. All right. Now, back in two thousand eleven, almost almost to the day was the november of two thousand eleven. Seven years ago, i had andrea kill stayed on. We talked about asking stiles. Um what? What? What’s happened? What’s evolved since then? Seven. In these seven years. Seven years? A lot. When andrea was on in twenty eleven, we had been quote live for about a year and meaning the asking matters site had been up and we had been promoting the asking styles. And so now we’ve had another seven years to delve into all of this material and what the first thing that changed probably about twenty thirteen, i think, is we change the results a little bit. So you might recall from twenty eleven tony that there were something like thirteen results, you could be one style. You could be two styles. You could be three adjacent styles, or you could be all four. And one of the things we found was that it wasn’t giving the staff and volunteers enough direction in terms of what to do, we found that too scattered, too scattered to say you’re all four or guo your these three didn’t give people a framework or a roadmap forward. And so we we actually tinkered with the assessment, and we narrowed it down to eight results. So everyone has a primary style and a secondary style. Okay, so the primary style is really what you lied from in the secondary gives you a sense of which of these two characteristics on the asking style graph is your dominant characteristic, whether it’s your introversion or extra version or your analytic or your intuitive side. And so having that as a guide gives people more to go on, right? So they’re still not locked into a narrow. Did you narrow your focus is that you focus it without saying you’re in this box or you’re in that box. We wanted people to have a little leeway there, because sometimes when you tell people this is exactly what you are, they say, no, that’s not what i am. And we didn’t want that right now. Andrea is no longer with asking styles and asking matters. Well, yes and no. We are no longer partners. I bought her out in twenty thirteen, but she is now. You bought her out. This was not a force. Was this jeff sessions? A kind of buyout? Are you trump out of session? In fact, andrea, i’m your request. I give my resignation and by and let you buy me out cause i get her on the phone. Yeah, i get it. I’ll get to that available. Did she say she’d be waiting by the phone today? Now she’s actually booked, but but all i did inquire are i know no, it’s graphic. She killing to me and said, i know what i think you should take it over. Andrea is one of the foremost creators of incredibly creative, sorry to use that twice ideas and products. She has brought so much terror field and she loves developing new stuff and constantly is doing so. She has endless undertaken to do it. But she said, you know what brian and andrea not go get? She’s a go getter, right? Talk about all the things we’re gonna talk about. All these right? Kindred spirit. Go get it and show you she’s gone. She’s gone and she is no getting rid of years older than me not to say anything to you what a chunk of your mother she is. And she said, you know what, brian? You can run with this for a long time. I’m not going to want to run this business for a long time. I like creating the ideas. I’ve got places to go. Exactly. And she has. She’s created more new things. It’s incredible. So and it actually inmate sent. So yes. So i took it over. And and but andrea is one of the four experts at asking matters. So she is actually still providing content, doing webinars on dh and such. I have a couple of people who have particular expertise is entree is one of them. So we’re still involved ethan and dear friends, ok, yes, i know. I do know, you never ask a question. You don’t know the answer. But now i do that all the time. Lots of questions, i don’t know answers to, um all right, so we’re going to get to all these, uh, all these different personalities, all these different asking styles, all the different styles, but we got a lead into it. So what a premise of the book is that there is no ideal way toe ass. And we’re talking about fund-raising solicitations. They asked the solicitation, that’s what prism. Everybody knows that. But make it explicit. But there’s no one way to do it. There’s no ideal way everybody brings something different we’re going to capitalize on. There’s no set way. That’s the best. There are best practices in the field. Yeah, but so much of it is about personality and relationships, and that means every one of those is going to be different, and you need to bring your true self and you. And that’s another theme throughout the book, all right. Authenticity and want us to be authentic. In our ask absolutely every step of the way. Because otherwise you can’t form a true relationship of the donor. And if you don’t do that, then the gifts they’re just transactional what we want his donors who really care and believe and want to be involved for the long haul. And that’s only gonna happen if they believe they’re having an authentic relationship with with the fundraiser in the organization. And can’t they tell us they tell him? Absolutely, mister, um is corporate, and it’s not your true self right talking to them, i say all the time. If you if you give your board an elevator pitch and expect them all to go out and give that same exact pitch, unless some of them are amazing actors, almost all of them will sound phony, right? You want everyone to talk from his zoho nick’s own experience in his or her own words. And why is this better done in person than any other method? When we’re in person, a level of empathy develops between us that just doesn’t develop some other way. When we’re sitting across from each other and looking in each other’s eyes, we care more about each other. We’re more vested. We want to come through for the other person. So there’s this bond that you just don’t get when you get a letter in the mail or an email or even a phone call. Because that voice khun b disembodied the reason i prefer to have guests in studio that, you know, body language is another one inflexion, you know, so special, you know, like i’m giving you the finger right now. So you know that, you know that it’s not going well. Okay, so we wait. We take a first break. Very good. That’s the figure i’m giving you. This is the one i didn’t say that. Did i say middle fingers that i say hold it. Maybe i’ll forget it. All right. I’m going up. The index finger pursuing they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and applied those startup growth strategies to your non-profit. It’s free as all their resources are. You’re accustomed to that? It’s on the listener landing page. You know where the listener landing pages? You’ve heard me say it repeatedly. Repeatedly. It’s tony dot m a slash pursuant. Remember the capital p for please. Now back to asking styles. All right. S o much better done in person. All the reasons that i prefer to have guests in studio. I mean, i’m happy to have call, but i’m very glad that you were able to make it in from moline, illinois. Att for am or so what demanded it for am work airport? Because we have this huge storm. Yesterday, it was crazy. And i was lucky to get in because when i landed at newark, there were thousands of people sleeping on the floor i couldn’t believe it was doing here. And people still trying to get onto planes at three. Fifteen. And then when we came through chicago, i did, which was its own madness. Yeah. Ok, that’s not a good way. Okay, so, midway, i mean oh, here must have been a madhouse. Also, it wass everything was a madhouse. Yes, everything fell apart. Transportation was yesterday not surprising. I’m glad you made it. Thank you. Checked in to do it by phone, but i considered renting a car. If i couldn’t get out and driving from davenport, iowa, it was it was fourteen hours, and it turns out i would have gotten home about the same time. Really, you could’ve made it a job if you could have got if you couldn’t write. So asking in person is better. But it’s hard. Yes, it is. It is. It is hard. Just feel better about why it’s worth the difficulty that we’re putting in. No one makes their biggest gift by direct mail by phone accufund by special events. If you want someone’s biggest gift, you have to develop a relationship with them. Over time, no one gives their biggest gift right off the bat. It usually comes over time as they get closer to the organization, as they understand the organization better. And and especially in this day and age where i think we’re starved for in person, right, so much is happening electronically. It makes the in person even more special. But it’s virtually none of those names you see at the top of the donor roster or on a building or a room. None of those gifts came from a phone, a thon or direct mail appeal. They came from building these relationships, so and eighty seven percent of all charitable gifts come from individuals, so almost told to give a compliment of it. You include family foundation’s yes, family foundations in there, as well as the individual gifts and the bequests there. And those total up the eighty seven percent. Wow, you did your homework. I read this book, i think. Very good. I’m disappointed that you’re impressed. That here is shocked. I’m disappointed that you’re surprised that she always put together, for god’s sake, i’ve been at the studio for six weeks. Of course, lycan youth rallied for one show. Excellent. It’s all downhill from here for next two months so well and and your subscription on itunes going going down after this week? Yes. So eighty seven percent of all the gifts come from individuals, and the biggest gifts come from asking in person. So if you want to fulfill the vision of your organization, if you want to have the biggest impact your organization can have, you have to go out. But ask individuals in person. But there’s a risk of you might take personal when there’s a rejection. You know how important it is to the organization or you over you over perceive how important it is. It’s life or death. You know, there’s a lot of personal risk in doing it. Face-to-face there certainly is, and depending on our style, more risk than not. Yeah, and i know we’re going to get into that in in a bit. I will share. And i i share with everyone. People think because i have been in thousands of meetings and i’ve raised tons of money and all my organizations have been very successful with the results that i am this stereotype of a fund raiser that i’m something most people can’t be, that i’m slick and confident, and i get in those meetings and i ask for big gifts. And if people push back, i push back. And i i don’t take rejection personally in all of this stuff and and there are might be a few people like that in the field. But i’m not like that. I’ve had all my own issues to grapple with all these years, and i like most people fund-raising not because we think fund-raising is the most exciting, wonderful thing we could ever do in our lives. But because it makes a difference, none of us grow up saying i want to be a fundraiser. I i asked this question every time i train, virtually no one raises their hand. We we we get the bug for doing something good in the world. We care about the arts, education, religion, a medical cause, whatever it is. And then we’re not a doctor or a musician or whatever, but we realize there’s a way that we can help. And that’s by fund-raising, too, so that our organizations have the resource and help musicians and doctors exactly. And social services, social workers. So we most of us come to it in a circuitous fashion. Not because we have some stereotypical skill set that people think of fundraiser has tohave. What we really need to have is the ability to form a relationship which almost all of us do have right. There are some people who’d rather antisocial let’s go about it at different in different ways. Exactly. Think pacers ways different levels of anxiety, etcetera. All right, let’s get i want just one more point. That is that after thousands of solicitations, i still confined it daunting. I can still be anxious. I can still fun for in a meeting and i still take rejection personally, even though i know i’m not supposed to thank you for opening up. I admire that. Thank you. Alright, let’s get into the styles. Now there are two acts. Do you know the plural of access? Because you worked at a c actually. Exactly right. Axes. Now axes. X s has the distinction of being the on ly word in the english language. That is a plural. For three words is the plural for acts a x axe axe e and it’s also the plural for access. Ex maxis, according to read its bona fide. I read it online. So it has to be true. It must be true. Must be true. All right, so let’s get to the axes. All right, listeners, i’m encouraging you, teo. I mean, you could you can go to asking matters dot com and isn’t there? Isn’t the chart there you’ll see? Right? You’ll see the chart. Okay. Don’t go asking matters dot com. You’d go there. But if you if your podcast listening with the vast majority do, uh, just you need a pencil on paper? It helps. It helps. I mean, you can try to visualize it if you insist, but it helps to have a piss peple a piece paper and pencil draw. Draw a vertical drop vertical axis and what we put on the vertical axis we put you. Look, don’t you guys to look? He’s looking at my teaching e. I wrote the book is look at my sheet people less. Well, where you bonem five. Well, where’s andrea? Didn’t you get her in? Get her bath started here. I think you made it. I think you made a blood thing is a big opportunity to buy you out. It’s funny. I was listening to her podcast and she was so articulate about how you lay this out when i need her to come here today and say that i was safe. She is our first date, so you have to drop both axes. Okay. Did you need the x and a y? Ay, right. One’s vertical once horizontal when they intersect. And they do the middle in the middle. Middle. Not like i wouldn’t make a bar chart from the origin that’s called the origins and mental virgin, so above ha sergeant must sign ok on on that y axis is in is extra version and blow the x axis. Is the introvert okay? That’s the vertical estonian. Why access and accept. Right? But, yes, the vertical line has introvert on top and no extra vert extra proton from atop an introvert. You right on the bottom, karaca. And they have the look you’re not okay. And on the horizontal, i’m a visual learner. I think it’s a link in my own material. Looking my own book. Damegreene goodcompany i didn’t bring your book. My copy. Your book. I guess that was a mistake for you. I have one. Okay. If i have to take it out and then on the x axis landing to the left and right of the vertical line, you have thie, analytic and the intuitive. So analytical is on the left. Correct and intuitive goes on the run. Right. Okay. Can i have your two lines and your four words? Right? You do? Okay. S so we know that you were in a couple of spectrum’s now. So which is which? Is this the style that you like that you seem to always start with? Go get her. You seem to know a mission control’s sorry. No, no, no. I’m sorry, rainmaker. I go from top left and i go claim make right, you stop. Rain, right. Go get our kindred spirit control. So in the tommy off here, tony top lefty, i wish you we gotta get gets to know their material. I’m in diamond barrister. You never know. I live in breach of it every single day. No, we wouldn’t. We wouldn’t. Quite right about that. Thank you. Ah, andrea was articulate. E missed that sometime we’ll have parents, so in the upper left, you right, rainmaker, correct on then in the upper right, you write go gets the go getter, correct. And then in the lower right, you write kindred spirit. Yes, you do. That’s you. That is me and you. We think we’ll come back to that. We’ll come back to that. I have an announcement about that. Okay. And in the lower left, your writing mission controller. Correct. Mission controller. Ok, um what is it? Just give us the overview of these. These four, like sure. How do they relate to each other before we get into the individuals? And how do they relate? How are they different? How are they different? Yeah, well, the key difference. The easiest way to think of the difference is through the core question. Each of these styles asks very good when trying to figure out what’s important to me. What’s going to drive me? The rainmaker top left, the analytic extroverted says. What’s the goal? It’s very quantitative. It’s something you can calculate. You know, when you’ve reached it, i’m going to raise a million dollars. I’m going to close ten gifts. I’m going to do glorious golden lorien. Did the ring make goal oriented? Top right? Go get her, go get her asks. What’s the opportunity? Like the rainmaker, the go getter is looking in the future. But the the go getter is looking more globally, less specifically. What is the vision? What is possible? Reduce poverty in right moline, illinois. This khun b so excellently provoc eliminate poverty, eliminate hunger, save the whales. It’s that type of looking vision for the future picture opportunity wise, right? The kindred spirit bottom, right? The intuitive introvert is saying, what moves my heart? What am i feeling? Because the kindred spirits decisions are all personal, they come from the heart and what they’re feeling inside and the mission controller says, and that’s the bottom left. The analytic introvert says, well, what’s the plan, guys? Because it’s okay to have goals and opportunities and a vision and to feel something. But if we don’t have a plan, we’re not going to get there. It needs to make sense. You need to see how you’re going to get from a to b. This is your detail person. Mission controller. What’s our plan for getting as you just said. Okay. Okay. I love that. All right, um, so let’s talk about then. Let’s let’s make it a little personal before we get into the more abstract, you know, planning your your asks, etcetera, etcetera. Dahna. So you’re you’re you’re an avowed kindred spirit. Yes, i now what’s your secondary mission controller? Mission controller. Ok, you went the other way for me. Okay. Okay. Ah, so so it’s a little more, in essence, that’s you since your kindred spirit. And we would you share that dahna say a little more about the kindred spirit. What? Sure. What do you love about it? And what? What? What makes it a challenge for you? Well, i what i love about it well, i’m embracing myself for who i am. Hard right? We all should embrace ourselves for who we are. I think developed developing this stiles has allowed me to embrace myself and be comfortable with who i am is a fundraiser and a person, and to say, you know what? I am feelings oriented. I take things very personally. I have a big heart. I want to help everyone. I want everyone to feel good. I want to be heard. I want to be seen. All of that is very important to me, those relationships and those feelings and on, and that’s what i lead with. And when i developed relationships with donors, they’re very much based on that there, very personal, and they’re very warm. And that’s that has been my avenue to success over the years as much as anything. Building those relationships very personally. Having a mission controller secondary, however, even helpful talking about the one what you have to overcome as way. We have to need to overcome his kindred spirit. What are our challenges? Well, no one loves rejection, and we do face a fair amount of it in fund-raising, or at least the there’s that fear that it will happen. And for kindred spirits, it’s personal, right for others. Okay, i got rejected, but it was about the donor or it was about the system or they didn’t believe in the vision or whatever. When we put ourselves out there and someone and we really believe we do it because we believe our heart is in it and then someone doesn’t want to support it doesn’t agree. It’s very hard for us. Did we do something wrong? That’s so upsetting? They don’t they don’t want to support what i believe in, and i believe in it so much. How can they not believe in it? It’s it. And i was telling this, ah, this room of fundraisers yesterday in davenport, iowa, that no, that yeah, i’m never going to get that past that you’re never going to get past that feeling, right, and you just have to you just have to embrace it. And no matter how hard i try not to make things personal, they are personal. So i have to just say their personal. What can you do that they’re going to be personal? Said earlier. Even though you know that’s not the way to feel about it, right? It still happens, right? And hopefully, just by knowing it. And some would say under overstaffed ing it being ableto look outside myself and say, okay, i can see you’re that way except it and we’ll figure out howto work with that, that it’s much better tham thinking i’m lesser because i take yeah, don’t write not lesser, just it’s fact based. We were not making judgment value judgments here. But you know, there are value judgments in society about that, and i do think kindred spirits are often judged. Introverts are judged to be inferior to extroverts, though there’s so much talk about this recently, and susan kane has this amazing book on it on the power of the introvert rights called quiets. A fantastic book. Quiet, quiet! Yes, the power of the introvert. I think it’s in a world that can’t stop, can’t stop talking something like that. But in fact, introverts or not is highly regarded, right. And i don’t think intuitive czar as highly regarded as is analytics, which is why everyone keeps thinking of the rainmaker, the analytic, extroverted, as something special and better. I think there is a bias in some ways towards and away from various people of different personalities. But we don’t have to take that bias to ourselves. We’re the person we don’t have to well, judge ourselves. Correct. Based on what society probably is judging, we have to block out the noise and believe in ourselves. Let’s move over to the left and you’re the your secondary style is the mission controller. That’s ah s o. That’s the plan that you’re the planner? Yes. How do we get there? So it’s funny. I details. I make lots of lists, and i always think they need to be better organized. And i’m always taking pieces of paper and trying to put them together and make cleaner lists. But i do have lists, and a lot of people don’t have those lists you have. Do you keep a list of all the lists that you have? More or less your deep into? You sure. You sure? Mission control. Your secondary secondary is definitely secondary. It is myself. Yes, but when people need someone to plan something, they often asked me to do it. I end up in charge. I don’t really want to be in charge. The kindred spirit doesn’t want to be in charge, but i know i can do what i have those skills and people need me to do it, and i want to come through for them. So i do it. But i’d be very happy if someone else would do it. What do you need to overcome as the mission controller? One of the challenges for for that? Well, the big challenge is giving up control, being able to go with the flow and not being thrown off when things veer off course, which can often happen in a meeting with a donor, you go in your you’ve got everything planned out. You’ve done your research, you’re going to hit these topics. You’re going to ask the turn to these questions and five minutes in, they take the conversation in a different direction. There could be a curveball or they ask a question you weren’t considering or you find out they have less time than you thought they had or whatever it is. And for the mission controller who’s planned everything out so carefully and meticulously, it’s difficult to tack in another direction. A lot of what you said about, uh, the relationship building and and the personal solicitation comes through in the work i do in planned e-giving. I mean, if those relationships aren’t so, if the donor relationships aren’t solid through the years, then there isn’t going to be a gift in their estate plan. Or there were times that land if you’re if you’re purely transactional in all in all respects, as people are giving to you through the years, and i don’t care whether it’s fifteen dollars a month or five thousand dollars a month or so are five hundred five hundred thousand dollar gift. If you’re treating it as a transaction through the years, then the likelihood of a plan to give being successful plan give scylla station big. Successful is much, much lower. Absolutely plan gifts do sometimes come by non personal asks. I’ve closed lots of charitable gift annuities all through email, so stations and mail and phone calls. But that’s where the relationship was rock solid, exact and the person was never treated transactional, e or if they were, it was rectified and they felt like they had a relationship. It was relational with with the charity. So that’s the big spectrum of, you know, from your monthly sustainers through toe plan gift. The ultimate, the ultimate gift hyre. So i was seven years ago. I was, ah, kindred spirit and a mission. A mission controller. Yes, seven years. November two thousand seven. I took the assessment on, but you gotta go to just take the assessment, asking matters dot com. It was thirty thirty. Questions. Yes, thirty very simple questions like eight eight eight ten words per question. Mean brief questions. Yes, no boom. It only takes a few minutes asking matters dot com not asking styles dot coms don’t go asking style dot com. That’s a point site. No, i don’t know what’s there, but actually that will do. Redirected our site to oh, good. So you do own asking sound. I thought, all right, all right, but just go directly. Sure we do. So you don’t have to go through pornhub goto asking matters dot com. Take the assessment. Thirty questions. It’s really fun, even if you’re not a fundraiser if you’re not a fundraiser. But but i have said in that interview with andrea that i aspired to be a kindred spirit and go get her so i was disappointed in my outcome. Come on. I want to be now taking it very recently this morning i wanted i wanted to be. I wanted the results to be fresh. Um, i’m still a kindred spirit primary, but now i’m a secondary go getter. You are. I evolved or i just answered the questions to the desired outcome. No, but i didn’t do that way. No, i did it honestly. So i have evolved. So we just have, like, thirty seconds before a break. But you can evolve, right? You know, i didn’t know you knew. Didn’t you answer the question differently because she just thought about it a bit differently today than you did seven years. We don’t evolve. No. We learn how to live in the world. On we learn we learn how to embrace our strengths and deal with their challenges. But we are who we are. I think we’re wired a certain way, but we weigh, manage our lives. We manage all sorts of relationships with all sorts of people. And and and certain skills are become more important in certain parts. And in our lives, we take leadership roles. And so we we need teo, focus on the differences of skills. And so we’re using different parts of our toolbox. But we are still who we are, right? Maybe i pulled the top. Maybe i pulled the top shelf off the toolbox. It’s dangerous for me to make two references on, because the first time i used a phillips head screwdriver, i had to go to the emergency room like, all right, we got to take another break. Regular cps. Are you not satisfied with your cpa firm? They’re not paying enough attention to you. Are you thinking about a change in twenty nineteen? Look at wagner. Check them out. You know where to go. Wagner cps dot com. You’ve heard that. Then talk to you. Coach tomb. Their partner. He’s been a guest twice. I trust him. He will be honest about whether wagner can help you. You gotta weinger cpas dot com now time to tony’s. Take two. I need to say farewell to our affiliates. This is the last show for our affiliate stations throughout the country. The affiliate family just hasn’t grown. The affiliate stations are not procreating, if you will, at the rate that i need to make the investment of time and money worthwhile. In that program, i’m enormously grateful to the affiliate stations and listeners that we have. Thank you. Thank you for being with us stations and listeners. I thank you. I just wish you had more siblings. I needed you to procreate more. I tried to get more siblings, but it takes a lot of time. And they’re just not it’s not coming through. So for our affiliate listeners, of course not. Proper media is always with you. Always available to you. Um, on itunes on google podcasts on stitcher andi. Lots of smaller wraps that you probably have never heard of. So we’re still with you. We’re still available to you. Stay with us. You don’t have to leave. I don’t want you to. I just need you to listen differently. And i’m going to do the men of the affiliate affections first, because i i do have affection for our affiliate listeners and stations. And i regret that this has to be the last show. But affections to our affiliate station family and to our affiliate listeners. Thank you, live listener love. It’s got to go out. It goes out to jacksonville, florida lake worth, florida russia were going abroad how that happened so fast. Ok, well, we’ll do. We’ll do. We’ll combine it all, um, delhi, delhi, india, russia. We can’t see your city, but live. Listen, love goes out to the coast to the whole country. Why not? Um, it’s leadership that a little concerned about. But to the people the life goes out. The love goes out another tampa, florida we got tampa lakeworth and jacksonville. Wallington, new jersey, new york, new york, new bern, new bern, north carolina live love out to new bern, korea. Can’t see your city gets anything. Cities, korea, netherlands live! Love goes out doesn’t matter. And seattle, washington and connecticut live love to each of our listeners. Thank you for being with us and the podcast pleasantries toe are over thirteen thousand listeners podcast each and every week. I’m telling you, it makes it so much easier to get good guests like andrea kill state. I mean, like brian saber, when i can tell them that there are thirteen thousand listeners. Alright, people put up with this. I wouldn’t i would walk out. I’d walk out. I’m getting my amusement for the day when they know that there are over thirteen thousand listeners each week. It helps with sponsorship too. So i thank you. The pleasantries to our podcast listeners. I thank you for being with us. All right, all right. So i learned a lesson. We’re not evolving. You were pretty much pretty much born into born into our asking styles quadrant and and that’s it. And we just apply different skills as needed, right? We’ll have a least a little bit of all of thes, and we call on it when we need it. We do it right, right. It’s not as if the rainmaker can’t be carrying insensitive and the kindred spirit can’t be strategic and goal oriented. It’s a matter of what we lead with, right? What? What’s court of us that dictates the styles. But there’s a bit of all of this and all of us. Let’s apply this to our donors, because where we know that we now have a style. And if we don’t know what, we’re going to go toe asking matters dot com and find out what it is. And then we’ll get the book to asking stiles. Just get the book. You could find the book asking matters dot com and then, oh, so but our donors have styles absolute. So if, if our donor happens to be in the same of the same style is us or at least on the same end of one of the axes you know next to, because the next twos they tend to work well with each other, don’t they? The next, the next two’s work well, and the well, they can tell you have a certain commonality. Commonality. I think the analytic intuitive pieces is particularly important, their meaning. If you’re an analytic, a rain maker or a mission controller and your donor is a a rainmaker or mission controller, you’re talking more of the same language. And if you’re both intuitive, sze go getters or kindred spirits, you’re talking the same language. Right, or whether it’s facts and figures or it’s a heartfelt story. There’s just there’s a bit of commonality there, and to me, that’s actually the mohr important parallel than the extra version introversion. Ok, right, ok, i think an introvert extrovert can establish a rhythm. Each has to watch out for the other. The extroverts has to slow down a little bit. Thie introvert may have to speed up a little bit in there in his air, thinking and speaking, but they they evolved a rhythm, and we’re used to doing that in society. I think the analytic into it is intuitive is a bit different, though, where i think we tend to associate with people who think like us right, whether where facts and figures, people’s people and we’re looking at outcomes, measurements and things, or where sharing heartfelt stories. So all right, so let’s start. Let’s apply this to our donors now, because if we can figure out where they are, if not if not a style than certainly what end of maybe maybe what end of different the two different axes on ly word in the english language? And as is the plural for three for three cingular’s. Then we can anticipate what they’re questions might be, what their objections might be, how they’re thinking about what we’re talking about. So how can we give us some strategies figuring this out for donors that where you have a relationship with now or someone were thinking we’re going to be soliciting? Well, we would have a relationship. Now, how can we apply? This? Could be suss this out. So there are a number of ways to figure this out. If you don’t know a donor well, and you’re going to set out to meet with this donor. You asking events, would you like me to send you any materials? Is there anything you’d like to know about before we meet and the analytics in particular? The mission controllers are going to be the most like. Please say yes. I’d love some material. Mission controllers will review as much material as you give them. They wanted to know all the facts and figures the rainmakers, the more strategic ones. But the mission controllers, everything you give them go getters are go. Getters of the most likely say, i just come talk to me now. That’s ok. Just come talk to me. We’ll figure it out so somewhat. Based on the material, whether people asked for material or not now much they asked for it. You can figure it out. Okay. God, you can figure it out. By which of your donors go to your special events o r. Or at least have a good time when they go. You hate events. Hate events. Yes. I hate gatherings of more than about six people actually. Which which is very funny, since i spend most of my life now doing workshops. First, i had two hundred people in this room sitting in the studio right now which would give a seventh in here to make you want that i’d have to leave, and then you could bring entree. And because she really likes these big total, not that’s why you’re here. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Ah, close. But it’s but it’s ironic. People would not expect that. But you’re very open about it in the book. Yes, i avoid events at all. Counterintuitive. I should say it is because i have learned to adapt. Right? I regardless of what you may think of the moment, people generally think i’m articulate and and i, i come off with a certain amount of presence and such, and i’ve learned how to do that to operate in the world. But it’s not my comfort zone, right? I mean, i was speaking to this room of people. Yesterday was not my comfort zone. Did i like the fact that i was sharing information that i thought was helpful to them? I like teaching. I like helping people be better. But i had no desire to be in front of that room or even in the room. And as a matter of fact, as soon as all the speeches were done, people hung around in the room to schmooze a network, and i made a beeline for the door. Even though i was the keynote speaker, i actually i must say i went out into the hallway because i had i have had enough. Can you share a start? My voices crack you fourteen, fourteen years old. Can you share a story when dahna thinking about a donors style helped you buy-in ah, solicitation. Anything coming to mine and put in the apse? No, i know immediately. I can think of a very significant donor at hudson guilt, one of the old settlement houses here in new york city, where i worked for many years and everything for her was about the children in the daycare and kindergarten programs, and for her it was about being in the classroom and hearing these stories about the kids. Even though she had a finance background, she never once asked about outcomes measurements. It didn’t matter how many kids exactly were being served what our goals were. She knew these kids were there, that their lives were being impacted. And and so it was all about sharing those stories and getting her into the kindergarten and the head start center clear as day. So that’s that’s an example. Yeah. All right, we gotta take a break. Tell us for pete’s sake, think of the companies. You can refer and ask them. Will they switch their credit card processing to tell us so that you can claim your long stream of passive revenue? Month after month, it’s coming to you. Fifty percent of the processing fees tello’s earns go to you every month. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us, then get asking the companies. Now back to brian saber and asking styles. Uh, our listeners like stories. That’s why i put you on the spot for our first story. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, this has great application that when you’ve done these thousands of sea pulsations when when? In the course of your thousands did you and andrea start start this work? Unfortunately towards the end couple weeks ago? Yeah. No, no, no. It was from two thousand ten, and so right. Well, i had i had been a fundraiser my entire career. So at the point andre and i met, that was more than twenty five years. I’ve gone through a number of campaigns, and i was always the frontline fundraiser. The person who cultivated and solicited major gifts in person who worked with the board. I did the work that had to be done. I never actually wanted to do it per se. I did it because i wanted to make a difference right now. So i did tons of that work forever. Now, since starting asking matters, i have worked on campaigns. There’s a an organization very dear to me in chicago called northwestern settlement house. It’s a it is a settlement, just like hudson guild in new york. I’m a massive fan of that model of cradle to grave service, and i’ve done a number of campaigns with them. Ron, who i talk about in the book and who even talks about his experience in the book. Ron, matt, man anderson and a shine. Yes, amanda shaw. Yeah, he’s a twenty five year buddy of mine. You guys get a lot of asks together partners, we believe i’ve been in a thousand meetings together in all this time. So the good news is the last big chunk of them came after we started this because the settlement finished a campaign now, probably about two years ago, and ron and i again were really the leads to listeners. They’re so we spent a lot of time together asking for gifts, cultivating toners and asking them. And i could see us through this prism of the asking styles, and it was really enlightening. It was enlightening because ron is a go getter. So it became so much clearer as to what he was bringing to the table what i was and the fact that we’re both intuitive and neither one of us was a leading with the analytic peace, even with our analytic donors. And you know what? That was fine. So we didn’t change anything. We did. But we embraced what we did more fully once we had this. This asking styles rupert to deal with were teasing the idea of partnering. And i’m goingto tell listeners that for insiders, brian and i are going to talk about partnering. So if you want to be a non-profit. Radio insider, go to tony martignetti dot com, get the insider alerts, then you’ll have access to the that the insider content. And in this for this interview, it’s going to be about partnering with a ko solicitor, basically, ah, and and using the styles, of course. Um, all right. How about well, s o? I feel like i’m jumping around, but going back to assessing your donors, i mean, certainly if you have a relationship, if you know the person through the years, um, that will obviously in form you’re figuring out what style they are. Absolutely. You learn their rhythm. You see whether they pause before answering questions way often talk about this the moment when you ask for the gift. And then what happens after? Well, a mission controller is most likely to pause for longer after you’ve asked to think about it. Where is the go getter is probably going to jump in very quickly with some gut response. So so as you spend more time with your donors, you you pick up on their traits such as this, right? What? The rhythm in the conversation, the questions they ask you. How many questions they ask you? Yes, right. Kindred spirits are less likely to ask questions right in the room. When i train, you’re the introverts are less likely to speak up, which means you. You have to sort of anticipate you have to try to anticipate their questions because the introverts aren’t going to be asking. And if you’re not fulfilling what they need to be favorable to your solicitation, they’re going to leave the meeting unfulfilled, and you will to write. And i don’t know for jumping ahead or whether you plan to cover this. But this is important for boards of directors as well. Latto understand the interactions of the board members. That’s the dynamic of the board, right? Because in a board meeting, the introverts are less likely to express their opinions. So if you want your entire board expressing its opinion, if you want all the voices at the table, you have to be particularly sensitive to your kindred spirits in your mission controllers, who in that large group are less likely to speak up? Okay, we may. We may come to the boy, us. If we don’t come to the board, then just by the book, for god sakes, goto asking matters dot com. Get the book. You know, we could get these brilliant authors. Well, we get these authors, and, uh, you know, semi are starting the catskill semi articulate on and, uh, and we can’t cover everything. It’s impossible. So everything so just get the book. But i will try to have time for the board because boards are big challenge. Yes, i do want to talk about preparing how preparing for your solicitation. And, of course, you know, solicitation that could be over a solicitation. I mean, there’s a meeting, but the course of the the course of that phase of our relationship could go over months, sometimes in back and forth and not this program or this program, but not that way. Or, you know, etcetera, att least implant e-giving. That’s certainly the case, and it’s got to be the case in major e-giving. Sometimes, too. Yes, well, you know, major giving to me there are two ways to look at major gifts. I think of a major gift as any gift worth the time to cultivate and solicit in some shops. There, they’re going to put a cut off, and it’s going to be those very large gifts for new programs for buildings or for plan gifts. But i to me, a major gift program is made up of all of the donors and hopeful donors prospects who have the ability to make a gift of a certain level that’s worth your time because everything needs to be customized and personalized. And that takes some time. So so major gifts could be twenty five hundred dollars gift to the annual fund, right? Your hundred thousand dollar a year organization. You’re going to go out and solicit a number of these to me. Those are major gifts and some of those gifts. So some of those gifts will happen fairly quickly with one meeting or two meetings. The bigger meet the bigger gifts. Those transformational gifts often take months and multiple proposals and bringing in various programs, staff and such donors. Advisers correct. All right, so so it’s it’s a process, yes, but so in terms of preparing for the meeting or the process, um, how do you ah, how tow us. Ah, how do we kindred spirits? Best prepare. How do we prepare? The best thing we can do is go visit the program and re acquaint ourselves with the program. It’s particularly important for fund-raising professionals because we can get very caught up in our day to day work, and sometimes we’re not near the program. Physically, we might be in a satellite office or something like that, and and and we don’t touch the program for a long time. We don’t see it in action. We don’t meet the participants, and that is critical to us because everything so personal. So the number one thing you can do to prepare is to go visit the program and get revved up again about it, because at the end of the day, all of us have to break. We’re all making our own case for support, telling our own story about why the organization’s important to us. That’s a very important piece of of the preparation for the kindred spirit. It’s it’s all going to be a personal story about a participant or their own journey. And and and so visiting the program enforces that. Okay, let’s go to your secondary. The mission controllers. How do they best prepare? They plant? They do a lot of research, much more research than the intuitive to go getters in the kindred spirits. Much more research on the donor that they will. I’ll plan out the meeting very, very specifically, even planned a meeting planned the meeting out. And how do we think the meeting will unfold? They’re more likely to have, ah, complete list of questions that they’d like to ask. They they’re gut will be to send information in advance because that’s what works for them. One of the exercises that asking matters is we asked people if someone were going to come ask you for a gift, how would you like them to do it? And how does your style impact that? Right? Well, mission controllers will often say, i want you to send me a lot of material in advance, so i can see it. And i can be prepared when we meet. So if your mission controller development officer your gut right, your natural inclination is to send a lot of material because that’s what you’d like. Now, once you get to know your donor, you might know your donordigital appreciate that you’d have to pull back on it, but often we don’t know our donors that well, so the number one thing to do is go with our own gut and our own style. So that’s how the mission controller would come here. We’re going to take our last break, and then we’re gonna come back and talk about how my secondary the go getters should best prepare. Okay, hoexter give. They haven’t email many course. Five myths of text giving debunked they’ll give you info so you can decide if this is a fit for you. The the the idea of text giving and then whether text to give fitz specifically, you hear all the hype about mobile e-giving get through that. Get the five part many course comes to you by email. Learn what you need to know. How do you get that? You text n pr november papa romeo to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Okay, we’ve got several more minutes for asking styles. Gladly. Uh, so the go getters, how would they best prepare for this solicitation meeting or process? Well, it’s funny that you say that because they’re the least likely to prepare. They winging it? Yeah, they’re very comfortable revolution. They’re very sure of themselves. And they are very good at being thrown into a situation and thriving whatever it isthe relating to various people keeping a conversation going, keeping the energy up so they tend to prepare less. What i do say to go getters is okay. I get that you’re going to prepare less than you’re comfortable. That’s fine. But everyone can benefit from from practicing their story their case for support because you don’t want to take a lot of time to tell it you wanted to be concise because of you share a lot with the donor. The donor is not going to hear what you’re saying. They’re not going to remember what you’re saying. And go getters tend to talk a lot too much. They can talk to much as a matter fact. Ron and i joke about how he can go long. He could go long, and it’s my job to rein him in and cutem uncovering the table, right? So go getters. Don’t prepare that personal story, which should only be a couple of minutes. Their tendency will be to go on and the story will lose it. So that’s the number one thing they should do. Ok, and how about finally the mission controllers? Preparation of the rainmaker? The rainmakers range, right? They’re going to want to review the outcomes, measurements and the goals of the organization because they’re going to tell the story their story through those because that’s what drives them right? The that we’re accomplishing x, y and z where sure, we’re making a difference because we reach this point and we made this difference with this many people and so forth. So they’re going to want to review that. They’re the most strategic, so they’re going to want to think a lot about where do we meet? What questions do i ask you? How do i how do i elicit certain information and a certain reaction and so forth so they’ll be rather strategic. Maybe without getting into the details the mission controller gets into. We just have a few minutes left. So i do want to talk about the board because that’s a that’s an important topic. Brian likes to ah, do his asked to the beverage. You will have to get the book to figure out why. Find out why he loves why it’s important to him to have a beverage in his ass just by the book, for god’s sake. All right, the board. So you would you would like us to. We just have a few minutes left. You would like us to have to have the board take the assessment. Absolutely right. It’s so effective. Lots of boards. What comes out of this? Tell us. Tell us due illustrated with a story. Well, i will give you a story from when andre and i were first testing the assessment. Okay? We had a small university in upstate new york. Take the assessment. The vp for advancement had his board take it. And and andrei and i looked at the results and we said, oh, no, it doesn’t work. Something’s wrong with the way the person i designed the test for us calibrated and so forth and so on. So with are did you think something was wrong because everyone on the board was a mission controller and we thought, well, statistically, that’s impossible, right? We may be there were twenty responses. So with our tail between our legs, we went back to the vp and said, we’re really sorry we’re gonna have to do more work. It doesn’t seem as if the assessment is correct. Everyone showed up is a mystery controller, and the v p said, that’s exactly our problem. Everyone is a mission control. You’re right. That is it. The dynamic is all off. We don’t have the go getters with the vision. We don’t have the rainmakers to keep us focused on accomplishing goals. And we don’t have the kindred spirits to remind us that this is about helping people and we have to have heart. So on a board, you want a mix of the styles for a variety of reasons. Committees, leadership. Well, right? I mean, aligning people to work together, deciding who, maybe who the leadership should be absolutely, and who ever every one of these organizations does. Special events, unfortunately, but you want to mission control are organizing them so the details or set right and you also want to go get her at the event. Who’s going to be really wonderful in the moment? So in some cases you might design board members to the work based on their style. But at the very least understand the dynamic of the board based on everyone style, just as you would in any behavioral analysis of staff for people in general. Ok, how about for the c suite? You see value there. We don’t talk about that. I don’t think it’s in the book. That’s interesting. I don’t. And that is interesting because i speak too many development directors who are aware of their executive director’s style and how that impacts them one way or another. And each executive director brings something different to this fund-raising equation based on his or her style. So the rainmaker is going to be rather driven right for their organization on. They’re going to like the big gifts because they want to make big impacts. The go getters will be happy to meet anyone. The development office wants them to meet and we’ll be charming. But it will be up to the development office to be strategic about that behind the scenes. When you have introverted executive directors, that could be a little more challenging to get them out. But, of course, the kindred spirit, you know, cells with the heart, and people usually really admire that. Executive director. But sometimes the kindred spirit executive director doesn’t want to make the hard decisions that need to be made in leadership on mission controllers when their executive directors can need to watch out that they don’t get into the weeds, that they don’t micromanage. So there’s value for the for the people working for the what of the c suite to know what you’re boss’s style is a way, i guess we need to encourage the c suite itself to recognize where it stands and ah, what it’s opportunities are and what it’s what it’s potential. The pitfalls are and to appreciate all its staff for who they are. Yeah, all right. We have about a minute or so left, and i want to enter the same place where we started. But authentic. You know, your authentic self. Remind us why that is so important. Using all these styles fund-raising good fund-raising the fund-raising that that leads to gifts year in and year out and larger gifts over time. And donors who really care about organisation. Though this is all based on relationships. If if you’re not authentic with your donor, your donor will smell it and your donor want to build that relationship. Who wants to have a relationship with someone you think is phony? So if we’re looking for longtime donors, we need to be our authentic cells and not worry about anyone else. Brian saber goto asking matters dot com take the assessment. Get the book which is asking styles. Thank you so much, brian. Thank you so much, tony. We planning to be here next week? There’s no show. Happy thanksgiving. You’ll be with family and friends. I’m sure i urge you make time for yourself. North. I didn’t say fine time for yourself. You never find it. You’ve gotta make time for yourself alone. Time. It’s important, even if you’re not a kindred spirit. Um, so and i have a thanksgiving. Thanks. Video. Which you’ll find forget to promote my own stuff. Go to tony martignetti dot com. I have a video e-giving my thanks to you for your support of non-profit radio. I don’t know if i say thank you too often, but enjoy your thanksgiving. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing by wagner cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com by telus credit card and payment processing you’re passive revenue stream tony dahna slash tony tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine our creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sama liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this great music is by scott stein of brooklyn, new york thank you for that information, scotty. 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